Playing to Lose: AI and "Civilization" (Soren Johnson)

[urmo345]

And yet there were (and are) trolls around who says that Civ 4 ai does not cheat.

Well, you can always cheat back anyway, LOL

[anonymous243124]

Im sorry but the AI in the Civ series is subpar

[MrScherbert]

This is a very enlightening video. Thanks.

[x6xk1LLx9x]

using this video as a source for my psych paper, thank you so much

[Mattx2go]

Yes the developers are being lazy. The question is, can they? The answer to that question can be found in another question, did enough people buy the game to profit from it?

I don't know about you but Civ V completely turned me off from the Civ series, Civ IV's AI "cheating" was my biggest grievance, but in Civ V so many other limitations (that can't be modded) arose that it turned me off from the series. Plus the AI are just as dumb as Civ IV. I don't want perfect, but I do want improvement.

[TimJBenham]

The most galling aspect is his contempt for the players. They're too stupid to notice if the AI cheats, and if they do they're just being whiny little hypocrites because they all cheat anyway.

[CravingForLiberty]

i think soren johnson establishes a false dichotomy here (roleplaying vs playing the same game). it all depends on game design: if a strategy breaks the roleplaying, eliminate it. design the rules so that roleplaying is the same as playing to win.

have a look at the paradox titles (eu3 and vicky2): they do that pretty good by having a few simple mechanics (stability, infamy, religious turmoil) that move strategies that are playing to win and those that are roleplaying close together.

[CravingForLiberty]

his example of religion providing a plausible casus belli is actually not a very good one: yes, if you are owner of the holy city you want to spread your own religion in civ 4, but other than that you would have no gameplay-reason to dislike players with different religions - yet the ai is doing exactly that for roleplaying reasons

in the paradox titles having other religions spread actually causes nasty uprisings plus you get valuable casus bellii on heathens, providing a real incentive for war

[Thormodr]

Great video and it explains exactly why Civilization 5 is so crappy. The AI should be there to provide atmosphere and experience for the player. An AI that is "playing to win

" is not fun, at least in Civ.

[apocalypse105]

@Thormodr

Yes you are 100% right Thats because sid meier and this guy and a lot of other gamedevelopers from civ 5 got an advisor role in civ 5 and john shaver got the main lead john what have you donne?

[apocalypse105]

the fun AI is the AI of civ 5 its to rondom that it is litterly funny

[apocalypse105]

@apocalypse105

correction i mean it is the good AI typ but that makes civiilization 5 a really bad gameplay...

[ORCA4312]

AI designer denies his AI cheats. BIG surprise.

[Magicpancake123]

@ORCA4312

Where does he do that? Part of the presentation is about it.

[DXRemix11223]

thumbs up if wached the whole video lol

[Zerg82]

I don't entirely agree with his perspective of sandboxing and i hope it's not the general attitude at sandbox players. I consider myself one, and that just means I enjoy playing the game - not to win but in the case of civ, managing and improving my civilization. Not conquering or converting. Just having a long game as long as it's enjoyable.

[TonPappa]

@Zerg82 he said it almost exactly the same way you said it. they just play it for the experience and not really to win.

[nvtschip]

I am REALLY interested in thsi topic but between the smacking of his lips and the fact that he is the WORST public speaker I have heard in months... I can't get through this.. I fall asleep after roughly 10 minutes.

[hYpNoXiDe]

Argh, I hate how he starts smacking his lips before talking.

[Folcik009]

Man, anyone else think these comments are somewhat hostile and unrealistic.

Game developers do not have infinite resources, time, and labor. These games require a lot more work then AI. It'd be fantastic if the AI was perfect but then we might see less time and work put into other areas of game design.

[IADaveMark]

@Luke1d20 This is a pointless comment unless you define "cheating". The AI doesn't have eyes, is it cheating for the AI to look up the precise location of the player?

[akirosette]

>>my face when he mentions spore

what a collosal retard, I would never want my name associated with that garbage, I guess i should prepare some salt shakers because there is nothing redeeming about that game as far as AI is concerned. (or much else)

[lordjavathe3rd]

It seems that a lot of the popular methods for making an ai system continue to dominate today. Perhaps the smallest program isn't the best program. Can't we create more complicated interactions. For instance, instead of getting the ai to preform a static option, can we get an AI to have a basic set of elements and form greater complexity, perhaps even character(as opposed to personality) in order to give the player a richer experience?

[AlexandraDanescu]

@lordjavathe3rd

The more complex you make it the harder it is to make it not go off on idiot tangents because of some loopy code. The straight of assault AI is stupid, but it's at least viable. Though not very clever.

[lordjavathe3rd]

@AlexandraDanescu Thanks for the reply. So it sounds like the method of selecting some seemingly random behavior for the ai to preform is the problem.

I've heard it said that for an fps game, making the ai less than perfect is the real challenge. Can we make the ai function in the game with only modest means of knowing where the player is? Perhaps something that makes sense instead of ai soldiers being connected to the knowledge of god.

It just seems like we could do better.I should read abook

[KarlKFI]

@Luke1d20 & @frenzyfol

Game developers do not have infinite time nor infinite resources to devote to AI development. Expecting a perfect AI in a commercial game is unrealistic. Sure they could have fixed it after they realized it was a problem, but that means either longer development or more maintenance after release. Then it becomes simple economics: "Is it worth it in dollars, reputation and/or time for me or my company to solve?"

Blame the Businessmen.

[jkp1187]

@KarlKFI Yes, damn those businessmen trying to put food on their tables...

[frenzyfol]

27.00 Disagree. Write some better AI that can identify cities that are vulnerable to attack.

[jarrod1937]

@frenzyfol And what logic and factors would you use to achieve this goal? You yourself use a multitude of factors and rather complex logic based on your own intelligence, environment, and past experience (aka you learned) for the most basic decision of which cities are vulnerable to attack. Try recreating this logic in a game AI and see how well you fare.

[altfuns]

Me gusta más ver que hablen de tanking, healing y DPS en un entorno académico, que ver periodistas y "expertos" hablando de #SocialMedia

[IMPMAC]

I got scared when the projector exploded.