Galloway is a shamed; ashamed at his government for bombing Iraq for 10 years before invading it...... to save the people of Iraq.... the same ones they had been bombing and starving for 10 years ! The duplicity of the western governments is the staggering problem
@no1hoopsman But that hypocrite is not ashamed of supporting the dictators responsible for the massacres in Syria, Darfur, Tianamen and Iraq under Saddam`s tyranny (err, "strength, courage, indefatigability", like that slut said)
@skepticaldemocrat You are as wrong as Bliar and Dubya and as truthful; he supports the people not the dictators; his record is in Hansard not You Tube doctored clips; you really need to listen and think; honestly ...you will get better
@skepticaldemocrat You wouldn't know the truth if it hit you square in the face; it's looking at you right now out of this debate; the innocent women and children of Iraq bombed and maimed and murdered; after we had starved them for 10 years with sanctions that the UN confirms killed millions...and you try to use a word like Truth ?
I can't be arsed with you go out and get some pussy, arguing with people on here when you have nothing to argue with, it's not a valid debate when you keep saying thats shit
the problem is with liberals who hate jews, they also hate white supremacy and they also hate jews as well as arabs, and arabs hate judea always have since before islam was even made up, and i do say MADE UP, it's a stupid mess any sceptic read the book satanic verses and reserch history, Christopher hitchens was more insightful where as galloway was not even skin deep, anyone condoning the survival of islamic regimes deserve to feel the force of another crusade, Forza Italia/Sicilia!
@jaylpp12 Does that mean you hate the Muslims ? An awful lot of hating going on there mate; best to take a step back in case you are adding to the hatred in the world, next thing you will be like the jew hating liberal and white supremacist hating whatever.
@no1hoopsman I have as much hate for red tape liberals as i do for muslims and white supremacists, you obviously did not read what I have wrote about or don't get in what context i wrote it in, if you don't have a point of view fuck off I am just expressing my point of view, Fuck Islam and Liberals and Nazism they all fall under the same banner Hypocrites
@no1hoopsman you have nothing to say so say nothing, your not an intellect and i am sick of people talking with nothing intelligent to say what so ever
@jaylpp12 Obviously you define intellect by the amount of hate you spew out, you seem to hate the world and everyone in it; especially if it is hypocrites because this applies to us all at some time or another, anyone with any real sense would be aware of that fact
@no1hoopsman Yes i spew hate because im enraged with hate so what, it is brought on by a passion of shitting on silly bastards like you wether it's bars or just debating, politics concerns everyone and we all fall in to stereotypes but people have a choice which stereotype they are, i know i am in the right one are you, i don't think you know what hypocrite means we are not all hypocrites and there is one thing worse than a hypocrite and thats a coward scared of expressing his views
@jaylpp12 Hatred and passion in the same statement; glad to hear you have passion, does that include compassion I wonder? No shit at my end, you are the only one spewing it out mate
Best to research the UK parliament records to see what GG said about Saddam; he destroyed the Senate hearings with these facts; still delivering aid to starving people of Gaza so his courage is beyond question I suggest, and remember it was Galloway who wanted the appearance at the senate hearing not the other way round .. bet Norm Clowman regrets that decision, and Rumsfeld of course with his meetings with Saddam
I was against this war 100% until christopher hitchens gave his argument and the more I watch this debate the more his vision rather than Galloway's his the right one .
@vashna3799 Really ? Even after all we now know and that which has taken place? Where we are talking to the "terrorists and insurgents" and using tribal leaders to regain some kind of structure for running the country in Iraq ? Even when we know Bliar and Bush lied to get us to war and retractions from top US/UK politicians; and the mess that part of the world is in as well as the financial mess we are in; billions of dollars have gone toward this disaster of a war
@no1hoopsman Well if there wouldn't have been an intervention Saddam Hussein and his brutal crime family would still be de facto rulers of iraq .Yes I know billions of dollars and billions of pounds have gone in this war and I'm pissed off too but like whats happned in Libya if history shows in 50 years time that the west didn't just sit on its ass and let the oppressed peoples of the muslim world be treated like shit we can be proud of that ,and don't forget its the fanatics who hate the west.
@vashna3799 But we helped oppress them; this is the problem, even now in Libya they are uncovering where the west was complicit in torture; we sent people there to be tortured. We also armed Saddam and trained many of their "special forces", and we didn't give a shit about the Iraqi people while we were starving and bombing them or when we armed and guided Saddam against Iran ... whose side are we on ? There is no justification for our stance; we are part of the oppression
Respond to this video... fascinating. look at what is happening in Syria. Libya, Egypt. a little liberty goes a long way. Galloway looks like an idiot now....doesn't he. How Brilliant is CH !
@adstanra I use to admire Galloway as spokesman for the underdog but now I see him as an masochistic apologist for suicidal terrorists and fundalmentalist muslims who he claims are "radical" ,they're not, as Hitch points out ,they are the most reactionary bunch of people on the planet who want nothing more than the end of civilisation.
@adstanra The liberty in the Arab countries is precisely because of the movement Galloway supports; the right of the people to determine their own leaders, not someone imposed on them supported by US/UK weapons and arms and finance as Saddam and Gadaffi and Mubarak were
@no1hoopsman The right of people to determine their own fate is what Hitchens has always supported. I don't know what else to say about Galloway when I see videos of him supporting Dictators. The world of foreign policy is very complex. I wonder what the world would have been like, if the US has not had a forceful self-interest in these countries. I suspect they would now be soviet controlled-Galloway perhaps feels badly about that. Saddam was more supported by France, china and russia.
@adstanra also ..i wonder what Galloway thinks when it was NATO that finally helped free Libia, at great personal cost.......why would he think this was a good idea , but not the freedom of the Iraqis from Saddam.....would he counsel the invasion of Syria? Perhaps you know...
@adstanra They can't accuse Galloway of anything other than contempt for Gadaffi; well documented and it was Tony Bliar who was close to Libya, and we now know the Libyans tortured people on behalf of the US/UK secret services; how much concern was that for liberty and freedom I wonder ?
@no1hoopsman Gallaway has stated that the worst day of his life was when the Soviet Union collapsed. It has been well documented that he has praised dictators in Iraq and Syria. It hardly appears to me that he is someone hoping for people to choose their own leaders. Following Gaddafi's revelations about his own weapons of mass destruction program, the West tried to work with him. This seemed quite reasonable at the time.The very foundation of the United States is freedom from authoritarianism!
@adstanra I am not arguing that the west has always acted honorably.they have at times done some bad things, like send prisoners to be tortured in Syria. This is certainly against Western morality, which is why they had to be sent to places like Syria! At times we have supported dictators because we felt the alternatives were worse. Oil, like water, is absolutely necessary for our existence.
@adstanra Because of the people of the country being ignored; this is what has happened in Russia; oligarchs abound and the US/UK are now cautious. Galloway supports the right of the people of each country to determine their own future themselves; not have it imposed upon them. The US/UK were shitting themselves over Egypt because they had no control and very little input, and while the US might be founded as you say, they don't want to let other people have that same right; this is historical
@no1hoopsman I don't know what history you're looking at. The US. has been involved in two world wars to free people from tyranny. These are wars that they initially did not want to get involved in and cost them greatly.for the past 60 years they have prevented the spread of Stalinism! the Americans had an official policy of non-involvement in the Iraq Iran war. As you say though, they did some reconnaissance for Saddam that in retrospect was not a good idea, but they felt at the time..cont
@adstanra that Saddam was better than fundamental Islamic regimes like Iran. Why don't you criticize Soviet Chinese and French involvement in that war? When the Americans invaded Kuwait and then Iraq, they found that most of the weapons used by the Iraqis had been supplied by these nations. It is perhaps a bit pathetically ironic that these are the nations that have secured the greatest oil contracts from Iraq. The same nations who supported Saddam the most!
@adstanra I'm looking at recent history like Vietnam and this war in Iraq and others such as in South America where the CIA were involved in covert operations when Nixon was in charge undermining democratically elected governments who didn't go the US way. There has been billions of dollars worth of Iraqi oil "gone missing" during the time the US was in charge; this was part of the fallacy exposed by Galloway (and others) at the Senate hearings; more US co's were charged over oil for food lies
@no1hoopsman well there's no question that the United States has supported dictators. I'm just asking you to understand that foreign-policy decisions are sometimes very difficult. A lot of these countries have been dominated by dictators for many centuries. Sometimes you have to support one dictator over another. The Soviets and Chinese have done the same. The war to free the people of Iraq has cost the American $750 billion and they've lost over 5000 people....cont
@adstanra con't. I'm not exactly sure how much oil is "missing"but I do think that some of that oil should go to the United States. It turns out that the Iraqis are now going to use that oil to build a better future. They have control over it, as the Americans always said they would. The Americans have done this at great financial cost to themselves.the world is now a better place because Saddam is gone, Qaddafi is gone, Milosevic is gone, Al Qaeda and the Taliban are on the run.
@adstanra our financial and power interests...that is the root of the problem. Iraq has the 2nd largest oilfield under it's ground. The only two Arab leaders to propose to the Arab league of oil producers to move away from the US dollar as currency were who do you think? The initials are SH and MG ... now would that be a coincidence do you think? We took no part on any other uprising in the arab spring; none, yet were prominent in Libya and Iraq. The problem is the duplicity of our position ..
@no1hoopsman after a cost of $750 billion to the American economy, I am surprised that the Americans did not take control of Iraqi oil. I understand the strict morality of allowing Iraqis to determine their own future, but this does not seem consistent with the nation who is only in it for the oil. If the nation is going to spend all that money and lose 5000 people in the process there has to be some self-interest. Otherwise we would be invading every nation with a despotic dictator.con't
@adstanra con't...there is no such thing as a universal policy with foreign affairs. We have to make individual decisions based on the evidence available at the time. It might appear that we are being two faced sometimes, but that's reality. We must consider our financial and power interests, the logistics of the operation proposed etc. we must also consider our own self interest! Having apparently got nothing out of the entire exercise for themselves, the Americans look a bit foolish.
@adstanra Self interest ? Take Iraqi oil ? Financial and power interests ? Do you realise what you are saying here ? This is the lanaguage of the schoolyard bully; he will determine what other people think and do. Galloway alludes to this contradiction when the US took control of it's affairs from the UK; it was right that the people of US had self determination ... hence it is wrong to deny it to others, and the key is self determination ... not US financial determination
@no1hoopsman this is not the language of a schoolyard bully. Saddam was a schoolyard bully! He was one of the worst dictators that ever lived on the planet. Would you have recommended that we simply watch the Iraqis misery? We have now put Iraq on the right path towards self-determination. These people needed to be rescued. If this operation was about US financial determination that it was a complete failure. They have not begun to recover the costs of this operation...cont
@adstanra You are absolutely right about the cost; you take the position of Galoway here; US big business benefitted at the cost of the taxpayer; have you read about the history of Vietnam ? Abpout where every war benefits arms and munition suppliers ? The ordinary people pay the price; and yet who determines we go to war ? Politicians with links to big business; put there by big business... don't you sense a link here ?
@no1hoopsman well I'm not here to defend the activities of big corporations. I don't think Hitchens would either. They need to be regulated and controlled. Galloway however seems to want to blame all the misery in the world on the United States. He is perhaps lucky that the United States exists, otherwise I fear he would be speaking German or Russian right now. Vietnam was a failure, but I wonder what you think about Korea and Chinese support for North Korean dictatorship?
@adstanra it is perhaps one of the twist of fate that the most powerful nation of all time is instructed by its own constitution, founded through the rebellion of colonialization. What other nation in history of mankind would not have used all that power to take over the world? Certainly if not for the United States, I argue, the Soviet Union and China would be in control of everything. The Americans are not perfect, but like Hitchens, I hope that their fundamental ideals will prevail.
@adstanra I don't agree that US is the most powerful nation ever; Rome was far more powerful relatively, and far more successful. Galloway supports the US people; that is why he is against the war and the killing of young US soldiers; he clearly states this in the debate; it is a great point. The problem is their fundamental ideals don't match with reality; this is the point. There is no self determination for Cuba allowed; it's been under war conditions for years now
@no1hoopsman you have a point with respect to relative power in Rome, but my point was that United States expansionism must be tempered by its own constitution, built on ideals of freedom from authoritarianism. I can see that you wish that humans find self determinism but this is not going to happen if we do not resist forces like communism and despotism. These are the antithesis of self-determination. What do you think the world's going to be like when the Chinese reach their potential?
@adstanra I have faith in humanity; we should also stand up for universal human rights; at the moment Israeli blood is viewed as more valuable than Arab blood for example. I marched against the conflict in Gaza along with British Jews against the war who were side by side with Muslim Brotherhood against the war; but you would not get that impression from the media today; a media with an agenda, and human rights isn't one of them.
@no1hoopsman I understand. I have faith in humanity as well, which is why I want it to be free and will oppose anything that stands in its way. If you look at Hitch's life, this has been his mission. I am uncomfortable doing nothing in the face of despots and crime families who torture their own people, limiting human freedom.
@adstanra And part of the tragedy is we are not made to be killers; war is horrendous to those who fight; the vast majority of those who have hand to hand combat or close fighting are scarred for life. I think Galloway taking food and medicine to the people of Gaza is the right way to fight oppression. He stood up for the people who had no voice; Hitchens prefers debating halls and book rooms, and the only thing he has done was the waterboarding which changed his view on torture .. instantly
@no1hoopsman I'm not sure that you are accurate in your description of Hitchens. I think he has been a huge proponent for freedom and liberty for oppressed people. He may not be popular, but he is true to his ideals. I'm suspicious of Galloway. I'm not sure he really is interested in freedom. I don't know what to say when he salutes Saddam, praises the Syrian monarch and his sad at the collapse of the Soviet Union. Strange.
@adstanra Hitchens is a great speaker and has wit and charm; suited to drawing room repartee, but here in this with a great Parliamentarian such as Galloway I think he succumbs. Hitch's oratory style is not suited to the combative element in parliamentary debate. I like his brother Peter as well, but disagree with Hitch and Galloway on lots of areas, but in relation to this issue; Galloway walks it for me; Hitch has since had to defend his position of support for Bush et al since then
@no1hoopsman if you know Hitchens, then you know he is no supporter of George Bush. he takes a stand though in support of the intervention in Iraq, because he believes that it was necessary to free these people from a terrifying dictator.He has been excessively bold in his stance.
How do you defend Galloway's praise of Saddam and Al Said? How would you have proposed the world deal with Saddam?
@adstanra Galloway has explained clearly; his praise was for the Iraqi people, same in Gaza. His answers at the Senate hearing nullified any claims to the contrary and his record against Saddam is in the UK parliamentary records. I wouldn't have supplied Saddam with anything other than medicine and goods for the people, and he was no threat; Iraq was a defeated country before the war, 10 years of sanctions and it was on it's knees. I need to go now, "speak" later, take care, I enjoyed this.
@no1hoopsman I appreciate that you have to go. I guess I have the last word then.I have seen the video of Galloway saluting Saddam. This was the same strength, courage and indefatigability that allowed him to be the most ruthless dictator of the past 20 years; that allowed him to control his people. Galloway is specifically addressing Saddam and his claim that he was speaking of the Iraqi people is not believable. His support for the Syrian monarchy is equally scandalous..take care
@adstanra The Iraqi interpretor confirmed the translation issue; in Glasgow parlance if Galloway had said you'se (which is seen as bad English but common Scots) the meaning would have been clear to every Scot. But of course at that time all the politicians in US/UK were doing business with Saddam. Galloway never sold him weapons or guns; he was a lowly politician with middle east connections from his early days in Dundee; Dundee was linked with Beirut at that time, that was in the 60's.
@adstanra And I suggest to you that this whole war is a crime; it was never for the Iraqi people who we were starving and bombing for 10 years prior; it wasn't about WMD, and regime change is illegal, Saddam was a barrier against Al Qaeda; OBL wanted Saddam killed as well, so ask yourself ...who benefitted from the war ? If you can find out the recipients of all the billions of dollars spent in this war then you might have a wee clue. Have a good day; hear from you later.
@no1hoopsman I'm not sure what companies you are speaking of, perhaps weapons companies? Following spending $700 billion and losing 5000 men, Americans withdraw without control of Iraqi oil, the contracts and sovereignty over this oil is completely in the hands of the Iraqis-who now at least have a chance at self determination..... which you and Galloway seemed to hope for------ but was impossible under Saddam.....take care
@adstanra lol...a restatement----what powerful country, after having spent billions of dollars and lost thousands of men,leaves the country they have just defeated without the booty----have the Russians or Chinese ever done that? The British, the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Germans,the Turks, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Babylonians, the Asyrians....the leaders and governments of these Nations would laugh at the Americans.
@adstanra In relation to the Iran/Iraq war, it is well known the US was helping both Iraq and Iran. You see it's best to play both sides of the coin; prompt Saddam to have a go against Iran by aiding him; spy technology and logistics and ingratiate yourself to Iraq; and let's be cute about it and help Iran as well; we need improved relationships there and what better way than to aid them againts Saddam; that madman who is really the cause of the trouble. When two enemies foght best to help both
@adstanra That's what happened in the Iran/Iraq war; US/UK were on both sides at the same time; this was covered in just after the war. So take a step back and reconsider how the covert operations in self interest go; this was the reality and is now exposed in Libya as well; Gadaffi was a tyrant (just like Galloway called Saddam and is recorded in Hansard) and "the west" was calling him such; Lockerbie and all that; YET at the same time, US/UK detainees were being tortured by him on our behalf
@adstanra The US/UK sent their prisoners to be interrogated by the Libyan secret service; and this collusion is now out in the open; that's the problem when real liberators are in charge as opposed to our own forces uncovering incriminating documents that turn out to be forgeries. See the difference ? So now the US/UK families that had their government support over Lockerbie now know they were working hand in glove with the same people who (allegedly) caused Lockerbie Pan-Am disaster.
@adstanra I wonder how that will be portrayed in the media? Doesn't promote much faith in our security people as to what they tell us and how they manipulate things does it? This is the real world of subterfuge; they don't give a shit about the ordinary of Iraq or Iran or any other country; it's about perception. This is Big Brother in action today; the box in the middle of the wall spewing propaganda; Gadaffi a tyrant (but he is our pal as well) Liberty and Freedom for all (well some) we shout
@adstanra Galloway was no different from any politician meeting Saddam (or the Queen or ?) in acting with decorum and dignity; that was all. It would be thoughtless to do other; but of course when he met the 2nd time it was to request time for the weapons inspectors; they didn't show much of that; and Tony Benn one of the UK's most respected politicians met Saddam around the same time for the same reason; Galloway and Benn are anti war. It is easy and suits the propaganda to blame Galloway
@adstanra But of course they suffered greatly for it; the senate hearing was a triumph for Galloway; finished Coleman really and exposed their bias to the world; it turned out to be the US co's were the biggest breaker of sanction that their gov imposed. NO further action against Galloway, even tho he asked for them to do it in open court; nothing, nada, niente. Now that in itself should tell us a lot; after all innocent until proven guilty etc. and this is why Hitch wanted this debate
@adstanra And if our countries send our soldiers to die like mercenaries in an illegal uncalled for unjustifiable and unnecessary war for regime change because we don't (all of a sudden) like the ruler while portarying our concern for the ordinary people we have been starving and bombing for 10 years and think it is okay for us to take reparation against a country we invaded for our own ends ... what does this make our standards look like ? We are liars and killers for money. Have a good day
@no1hoopsman how would you have contained Saddam, given that you admit that he was a horrible person? I suspect you were against sanctions. Do you think that Saddam, if left alone would have acquired weapons of mass instruction?
how do you account for the fact that the Americans are in the process of leaving Iraq without control over the oil?
@adstanra Saddam was containable to a greater degree than our politicians I suggest; the marches against the war were met with contempt; the plans for the war were made well before any "final official decision" in the parliamentary process was taken and this is an issue just now with commissions looking into the lead up to the conflict; Tony Bliar lied to the parliament and the people to justify an illegal war when SH was no threat, and certainly not the innocent people of Iraq
@adstanra The thing about Saddam is he could be bought; his country was on it's knees, 10 years of sanctions, restricted trade would have made the noose tighter, limitations on finance and closer relationships with him would have helped; we end up talking to the terrorists anyway (as we do just now) and if we had kept a dialogue going there was a better chance of compliance; even the weapons inspectors wanted to pursue that route, but propaganda gets in the way
@no1hoopsman Saddam was a narcissistic madman, whose sons were ready to take over the moment he died. This containment with a carrot and stick would have to have continued for decades...all at the expenec of the Iraqi people...more resolutions, more defiance..in perpetuity. It was only threats and bribes that he understood, and I think he eventually would have continued his activities against the Kurds and Shias. Eventually a civil war would have resulted.
@adstanra No doubt SH was a madman, he killed many on our behalf though and this is where stumble; our gov's were complicit in the killing don't you see; we gave him license to kill (not that he needed it) and we were party to it. There is a civil war there just now; we (the west) have come out worse because we appear anti muslim and anti arab from a political perspective. How can we be taken seriously in that region when we say we are concerned about human rights? How can we tell others ?
@no1hoopsman i am not sure that we could contain Saddam with political moves and buying him,as you suggest. Saddam had lots of money and when we tried to contain him, it led to further suffering of his people, while he built new palaces and monuments to himself. He was a totalitarian despot who's sons were ripe to take over!.The sanctions were levied because Saddam had a history of not cooperating with inspectors because of his narcissism, a fact Galloway should have known before praising him
@no1hoopsman also, loved the video of Scotland vs England 3-2. Both my parents are from Glasgow...lol.My father played for Dundee United in the 1940s,while in the RAF. He tells me he once met Stanley Matthews...lol
@adstanra Hope your old man is keeping well and you too; you might guess by my handle which side of Glasgow I support. Seems there are quite a few ex pat Scots over there; my Grandparents were over there at one time; grandfather fought in RCMP in 1st world war. Have a good day
@no1hoopsman hmmm, I'm afraid I don't know. My father used to describe how Glasgow was deeply divided religiously.As a child, used to walk past the stadium where Celtic played and spit on the wall. My sister married a Catholic and his grandkids are now Catholic. He has come a long way. I suspect Glasgow has as well.
I think there are more Scots outside of Scotland, and many more who claim to be Scottish lol...BTW, my views on Iraq are not supported by the vast majority of Canadians.
@adstanra I was with Iraqi's from the North two weeks ago; they are happy Saddam has gone, but their chances of a separate Kurdish state is influenced by others; Turkey doesn't want it and no doubt there will be pressure from them towards the US/UK, and then who knows. GG would say it is up to the people. By the way I'm fine thanks, hope you are keeping well also. I like your choice of films; Inherit the Wind is one of mine. Take it easy
@no1hoopsman The Kurds are, at least, not being persecuted by an evil dictator who hated and gassed them. Saddam was responsible for millions of deaths. He is gone now, but obviously much work is yet to be done. Hopefully Iraqis will get that self determination, now that the Americans are withdrawn ( in December) and they have control over their vast oil reserves. IMO, they needed to be rescued by this madman.
@adstanra i think you are reflecting how complicated foreign affairs can be...wrt Kurd for eg. Should we just not have any influence and leave this up to the Russians, fundamental Islamists , Turks, Chinese. I wish we could be isolationistic....but, I am afraid, that would be foolish. We do need to consider our self interest. Balancing that with our ideals in the difficult task...maybe the Kurds should have a nation of their own.....daunting task!
@adstanra I'm saying that any influence we exert should be for good; no guns required, building blocks of society but not weapons and logistics. Killing only begets killing in the long run; look at how Northern Ireland hasn't acheived any peace because of long memories and what the soldiers did on bloody sunday. This was a peace march with peaceful protestors shot at on instructions by the UK army; now admitted after years and years of investigation and millions of pounds spent
@adstanra We shouldn't be in a war for what we can get but for what we can give; but today it is about oil, it is about power and influence for the wrong reasons. Millions of dollars were spent wrongly and needlessly in Iraq; buying tribal leaders who changed allegiance at the drop of a hat or a higher bid elsewhere. We more than anybody need to meet the high standards required for equality of life and basic human decency for ALL people of this earth; not just the ones who side with us
@adstanra Oil is exchanged in US $, this is a controlling factor. I mentioned some time ago that there were only 2 Arab leaders who wanted OPEC to move away from the US currency; Saddam and Gadaffi.
@no1hoopsman I am not sure what your point is.Perhaps you can explain it to me.
This liberation was not perfect . There are allegations of missing oil and funds--identified by the special commission from the US. This needs to be investigated. They did't provide security fast enough.
one could easily point to atrocities committed during WW2 and the civil war - but that does not take away from the arguments for these wars, horrible as they were.BTW, I appreciate this interesting conversation
@adstanra My point is that we in the West have lost the moral high ground; our support and association for dictators when they are doing our bidding undermines any credibility we have in any sphere; political, moral or philosophical. Ordinary people in the street know this now. This duplicity we dish out is being rendered to us now; just think about Pakistan for example; hiding OBL it appears, aiding the bombing of the hotel in India and atrocities against US/UK forces
@no1hoopsman I can see that we are both interested in self-determination and liberty, even though we disagree about how to achieve that. American foreign policy has been governed, over the past 60 years, by three things. 1-the resistance of the spread of communism 2-the resistance of the spread of fundamental Islam 3-the procurement of oil. With respect to all of these, there have been grave mistakes made, although I would argue that these things needed to be done. I do not believe that..cont
@adstanra Bolshevism or Maoism are conducive to liberty, nor fundamental Islam. The Cold War was brutal. The procurement of oil is simply a necessity. People start dying the moment the oil stopped flowing. The West has known this for quite some time. It is well known that Britain and France, along with Imperial Russia had formulated the Sykes-pac agreement to divide up the former Ottoman empire. The main consideration there was oil. It is hugely to our benefit, that these oil nations..cont
@adstanra are not in the complete control of Soviets, Maoists or Islamic fundamentalists... or mad dictators!...or large corporations. I am confident that if there is to be liberty and self-determination for humanity, it is going to be found through the ideals grounded in the American Constitution. We have had to do business with some unsavory characters, because at the time it served our self-interest, and we felt the alternative was worse. All the good we might do, may not be enough...con't
@adstanra to stop dictators, fundamentalists, and Bolsheviks. We cannot be isolationists. Saddam came into power for all sorts of reasons, but he was as possible for invading two countries and the deaths of close to 2 million people. There were only a certain number of ways to deal with him,all of them horrible. Following his infection from Kuwait, Saddam said that his greatest mistake was that he did not get nuclear weapons before the invasion. He hated Kurds, Shias,Jews,Persions, and Americans
@adstanra I think with Saddam he would be like everyone else; we tend to like those who like us and have a problem with the rest; minor tho it may be. The root of the problem is contained in your response really; self determination of the people v the aims of our gov's .... which do not equate even tho liberty and freedom are spoken off. I think it is this duplicity that undermines our efforts and motives now and as I've said we have long ago lost any claim to the moral high ground
@adstanra I suggest to you that there is a great deal of this issue about perspective; we have to walk in the other mans shoes; freedom fighters are often portrayed as terrorists; when people are defending their own homes and country as we invade; they are referred to as insurgents; a technical term rather than someone defending their house and family. Put the shoe on the other foot and consider how we would feel if say the most powerful nation didn't like what out leader did ? Can you imagine?
@adstanra Ordinary people in Iraq and Afghanistan had their homes bulldozed wiothout warning and in minutes for line of fire and other logistical issues; the safety of the soldier became paramount for political reasons to justify the war or at least minimise the negative reaction (Vietnam was a big lesson) and so freedom and liberty of the innocent people we were supposed to be saving was ignored. We lose any moral and political reasoning at that point.
@adstanra And, altho my politics isn't in line with GG, I have to agree with him here. Our abuse of the people leads to retaliation, we bring it on ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even our poltical allies are against us; Pakistan has been double dealing for a long time. We have opened a war we couldn't win, have to try and make a retreat of some sorts, caused all sorts of enemies to grow and take up arms against us; this mess is our creation and in this I have to agree with Galloway.
@no1hoopsman the history of humanity has been one characterized by the rise of one despot and crime family after another. When it's not a dictator, it's a totalitarian government. Many peoples in the Middle East, like the Iraqis, Kurds, Iranians have been under the control of empires for centuries. In the meantime, they happened to sit on vast oil reserves that are vital to other powerful nations. this is a very difficult and precarious position. Take Pakistan...con't
@adstanra are you really going to blame all of the problems with this nation on the United States? Regardless of how it came to be, we have to somehow deal with this nation. I don't think the United States or anyone else likes the government there, but we have to have relations with them. We are going to approve of some the things they do and disapprove of some other things they do. in Afghanistan, many people have tried to claim that United States is responsible for the Taliban..cont
@adstanra no doubt that the US supplied arms to people to fight against the Soviets. Was this wrong? Practically every nation in the West was doing that, and Pakistan particularly. The result though, the Taliban, was a disaster. I think you can safely say that this government was completely repressing the freedom and self-determination of the least half its population (the women),and they were training and supplying Al Qaeda-an extreme defective form of Islam.following 911, how would you..con't
@adstanra have dealt with the Taliban? Sanctions? Buy them off? A verbal spanking? I don't have the correct answer. I do however agree that we must, almost always, take the high moral ground. I just don't think that that works too well in the face of Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, the Taliban.
As an aside, Qaddafi revealed his WMD program following the invasion of Iraq and we were able to identify links to an network that involved Pakistan and North Korea. Scary!
@adstanra ..in my opinion, Galloway holds an extreme position of hatred towards the United States to the point that he blames everything on the US. He had dinner with Tarik Aziz, Basher Al Said, and saluted one of the worst dictators of all time for his courage, strength and indefatigability. He was sad the day the Soviet Union fell and is a fan of Castro. He may very well be interested in self-determination, but I think his support of these guys may be undermining his goal.
@adstanra I apologize for the volume is reply today. But you've got me thinking lol. I would not equate these insurgents with freedom fighters. Most of them were representatives of extreme groups and often their activities were directed against the Iraqi people, albeit different factions. If I was really interested in freedom I would have been happy the Americans liberated us but also happy when they left,after a period of stabilization. I would not be bombing mosques, markets or Americans.
@adstanra GG is small fry here, he had involvement with middle east people and politics as part of the labour group in Dundee when he was but a boy. His connections are well recorded, he met SH when everybody was praising him, but denounced him after we knew the reality; but our governments didn't. They still did business selling guns and logistics and helicopters and training their special forces and all that stuff. So who is the real criminal here between GG and our Gov's ?
@no1hoopsman I still find it strange that he was good friends with Aziz after he apparently knows about the regime. Hard to believe that he was not praising the dictator after calling him "Sir" and presenting to him the well wishes of many ( how is Saddam to take that?). Then he is in Syria, praising Al Said and the insurgents ( people on the fringe of Iraqi society blowing up people). what are his thought now about Al Said ( has he said anything about freedom of determination in Syria)?
@adstanra This was really wrapped up after GG destroyed Norm Clownman at the senate hearing. The duplicity and conniving of our gov's was exposed to the world then and it is a matter of record.
GG has nothing to answer for now; every legal action in relation to these claims was won by him; 9 out of 9 against the biggest newspaper organisations round the world with heavy legal teams working for them. This was David humping Goliath again.
@no1hoopsman I have never said anything about the charity and accusations about Galloway. Even if he is innocent on that, I have been arguing against his support and friendships with totalitarians like Al Said, Castro and Aziz. ..not to mention Hezbollah.
@adstanra GG is in the clear as far as SH goes; recorded in Hansard the official UK Parliamentary history. He has been tried and found not guilty of any wrongdoing so many times it is embarrassing. I wonder if the media will show Tony Bliar cuddling Gadaffi so many times ? Or Rumsfeld meeting SH to supply guns and weapons and deal for oil when we knew he was a tyrannical murderer.
@adstanra On my previous illustration of the Might v Right issue; where we are being looked upon as the troublemakers of the world; the US/UK have been at war every month since the end of the 2nd WW, and we can easily fit the bill in terms of aggression and imperialistic movements, of ignoring human dignity (Abu Ghraib and rendition) of supporting terror organisations; the Zionist government would qualify for a start.
@adstanra You can try to justify what the aims and actions of the UK/US are; but we are now trying to get out of a war we shouldn't have been in, trying to justify being there, and having not been able to beat the Taliban; no question about that ...... otherwise we would still be there... are now having to face up to deaths of thousands of innocent people and deaths of thousands of soldiers because of an error of political (mis) judgement
@no1hoopsman Well, i do have experience with some Afganis. These people are happy the world invaded. they supported an organization that attacked people in NYC. are you going to justify that? these are a freakish Islamic group that imprisoned their own people ( especially women.). they have a long wy to go, but the Taliban had to be resisted...not with buying them off or appealing to common ground...
@adstanra We cannot impose our values of killing people to tell them not to kill, this is the sand on which we founder. Once we export terrorism we become the terrorists we are supposed to be at war against. It matters not a jot that you or we rationalise it, the bottom line is we export terrorism and killing first so we can them export goods and import (and control) oil and reserves of other countries.
@no1hoopsman If you are for self - determination, you should be very happy the Taliban and Saddam are not in control. Both of these needed to die. These are people that evolved over centuries, caused by a slew of factors. You seem to want to blame the US for all the ills on the planet. Do you think the Soviets, Chinese, French, Turks, religious factionalization, Persian empire,tribalism also had something to do with it?
@adstanra Hi, hope you are well.I'm not against Americans as such just like I'm not against any other race; I'm against the actions of governments which are taken for the wrong reasons and then lie to the people to justify their position. This is what happened in Iraq. Our politicians were more complicit with Saddam, and only turned against him when it suited them so to do; the Iraqi people I suggest were an afterthought. It was really oil they wanted.
@adstanra The problem is that the oil went missing under the US watch; when they were dishing our millions of dollars in cash to have people back them and become pro US/UK, and also to get things done.With so much power and control at hand I think we can safely say that the oil went into the coffers of US Business and Politicians in my opinion. It is proving to be that over here in the UK as certain politicians allied to Bliar are being exposed now
@no1hoopsman have they traced the missing oil to Blair and politicians?My reading of the "missing oil" , is that they are not sure where it went or even if there is any missing oil. As far as I know, no one has connected it to any american oil company or politician. I do believe , that in December, the Americans are going to withdraw without control of the oil. Perhaps those who argued that it is all about the oil are the ones being exposed.
@adstanra The great irony is that the bidding for the oil contracts in Iraq was done in public I believe; on a TV Reality style program where co's had to bid. Apparently Shell/BP did well as also did the Russians and Chinese. So much for open tendering and democracy but I understand that the US Co's did better than anyone for tendering to reconstruct Iraq. Certainly the Kurds I was with two weeks ago told me that.
@no1hoopsman As far as I know the process was done as a usual business contract. The Iraqis decided. Perhaps people will now argue that the Americans did it to secure rebuilding contracts. the point is, that the Kurds, like other Iraqis have control over their destiny now,whereas their future was horrific in light of the prospect of Saddam's sons in control for decades. there certainly was not going to be any rebuilding under sanctions and crime family rule. Your Kurdish friends must be thankful
@adstanra I think in respect of the Taliban; you have to remember that we are not winning this war, and the more we make mistakes and kill innocent people the more we are despised; just as the Russians were when Charlie Wilson and the US Gov was supplying and aiding the Taliban. One might say we reap what we sow; death and destruction might just be following us now.
@no1hoopsman i am not sure too many people would say that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are better off now, than they were prior to the invasion ( supported by the UN). Perhaps Galloway is sad that the soviets did not win the war during their invasion, but I think the US was trying to help people resist the spread of soviet control. The Taliban enslaved 50 % of their people and subjected the rest to their horrific brand of Islam and supported Al Qaeda's attacks on 911..
@adstanra many people have criticized US neglect of Afganistan following the defeat of the Soviets, but i am sure you would not have wanted US involvement...unfortunately, this lead to Pakistani involvement and the rise of the Taliban. surely you are happy that the Taliban is not in control of Afghanistan right now....nor the Soviets. Foreign affairs is very difficult ! The war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda continues.
@adstanra It was supposed to be the failed war in Afghaniostan that brought the break up of the Soviet Union; financially too much to bear, and we might also ask the same question for us; too much to bear financially and politically and also from the perspective of the people. We're not exporting goodness and kindness or democracy here I suggest; it might be presented as such by the media, but as you state yourself, there is an element of self interest, too much I think.
@no1hoopsman Well, It ultimately was self interest that brought the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. As much as I would like the US to rescue all peoples from tyranny, that is impossible. i think it was worthwhile to resist Soviet expansion. i think we do have to secure oil. i think it is a good think that Saddam is gone, and the Taliban needed to be fought. I am not sure the export of goodness and kindness is enough in the face of the Taliban Saddam, Stalin or Hitler..wish it were.
If you think we do need to secure oil, then let the Canadians know. To my surprise, and to many people's surprise, The United States gets the majority of its oil from Canada. I always thought it was from The Middle East.
@adstanra In my opinion, it is for the people of the respective country to determine for themselves; hence regime change is illegal in the UN as the most powerful nation can easily construct a reason to invade and have a group of "willing" countries to back them poltically. War is only viable in my opinion when it is self defense; and this is where one adopts the moral high ground.
@adstanra I'm aware that not everything is so clear cut; I've been far too many placesand met too many people to know it isn't easy; but if our values of justice and equality for all are to bear fruit then I think we must show that at all times; not just lip service for the sake of the media, and certainly not media led. Enough for today, hoe you have a good one.
@no1hoopsman hope you have a good day as well. I appreciate your opinion and can see that justice and equality for all appears to be what we both want. I agree that we do need to portray this. Not sure Saddam, Soviets, Taliban,Al Said, al Qaeda give a dam about this and resistance of them is going to difficult. i think it is finally more than lip service that the Americans are leaving without control of the oil. all the best
@adstanra Good day to you when you get this. I should say that criticism for our leaders and their actions isn't providing support for the opponents; I am no more a supporter of rampant Capitalism then raging Communism; both have failed the people and it is the common man who picks up the pieces. The rich and powerful go on getting richer and more powerful. This happened in Russia as well as the West.
@no1hoopsman Good day my friend. I agree that criticism of our leaders is not support for the opponents. I consider it a sign of freedom that we can criticize our leaders. I laugh that Bill Clinton could not even have an affair without people finding out. We need a multitude of media to keep watch on our leaders..not to mention corporations.. i love it that Iraq now has a good number of newspapers and media. hopefully they will build some sort of democracy to keep the leaders in check./
@adstanra My main complaint is mans inhumanity to man. In these wars it is always the poorest and those least able to protect themselves who get hit the hardest. And it is our politicians who tend to want war; but never send their own kids, and we end up negotiating to get out. We are doing that now with Pakistan and the Taliban; our generals over here have admitted this.
@no1hoopsman i know what you mean. the laws of physics are such that the weak are preferentially the ones that suffer the most. the history of mankind is one of domination of the weak by the strong...who usurp power. the animal world is the same. Hopefully, we are moving in an unprecedented direction where the powers are under some sort of check..through democracy, freedom of speech and dissent. My criticism of people like GG is that they seem to have this masochistic tendency to want to blame..
@adstanra the west for all horrors on the planet. They excuse groups like Al Qaeda, Taliban, Soviets, Castro, Saddam, Al Saad by blaming us....I don't mind people criticizing, but there seems to be a bit of an unbalanced criticism IMO ( for what it is worth lol). the more groups like these get into power, the less freedom for all. I am sure you agree with that. And regardless of mistakes in the past, we have to deal with the present.
@adstanra But what sickens me as well is the human cost in all of this. Lives and limbs lost and for what? Not for freedom as the people now have civil war on their doorstep once again. We need to be more aware of what we offer to the World in my opinion. The view I get from the perspective of the poor and 3rd world countries isn't anything like we imagine.
@adstanra It is precisely because we vote for our leaders and give them our trust and power that they should be accountable to us and not big buisness that we query what they do. But, I guess we have run our course here in this exchange. I wish you the very best and hope life is good for you. Take care
@no1hoopsman yes, thank you...I have enjoyed this thoughtful exchange of ideas....a bit more civilized that Hitch and Galloway eh? all the best to you.
@adstanra Just how would that feel to have them come into Canada ... without your agreement or permission ...... and take your oil and coal and mineral reserves and say it should be shared with the world for the benefit of all?
@adstanra When Rome ruled the world; all Romans had free bread. This is the same as the US getting cheap oil; lower than anywhere else and more readily than in Iraq. There is no way we can justify this unless we arrange a new structural moarl and legislative system that suits the West ... this is what is happened .. we have re-written the rules on human dignity, on governments, on how countries should act and behave .. and all to suit our business model. Liberty for others is conditional
@adstanra We us eother countries to carry out torture on our behalf, use and supply WMD's to rogue nations and dictators, are interested only in self advancement to the detriment of ordinary people in their own country; force our values onto others as the norm. .. What do you think ? The first reaction would be to defend our way of life and our politics and values; but this is the law of the powerful; not the just or right.
@adstanra With these facts in mind; all of a sudden a powerful and rich and just nation has "a duty" to invade our country, to impose right values so they don't get attacked by us; our rockets can reach their country no problem so see how dangerous we are to peace and harmony in this world ? This is the other view; we walk in other mans shoes to see and know and feel what is their reality. I suggest that is why we have nol right being in Iraq or Afghanistan to impose our oil based values on them
@adstanra Apart from that; we are getting beat out there; the Taliban is a strong as before if not stronger. Our efforts to win hearts and minds have long since gone by the wayside; when did you last hear that phrase used ? Our army generals are now saying openly we can't win, couldn't win and want out. Nor would we expect to give in to the "Chinese armies" (in the story) if they invaded us. This I suggest is a perfectly plausible scenarion to consider; it is the reasons we use being inverted
@no1hoopsman good morning, rather afternoon in Scotland. After reading your posts, I wonder if you are truly reflecting the feelings of the Iraqi people. You talk about them as though they had freely chosen Saddam to be their leader. They had no self-determination whatsoever under this man! The Kurds and the Shia's had been gassed and brutally repressed. The world had issued economic sanctions on them for over 12 years. The activities of Saddam had been responsible for 2 million deaths...cont
@adstanra con't. ..it is now that they are free of this man and have the semblance of a democratic constitution, and control over their resources that they may eventually gain self-determination and liberty. After spending $750 billion, including $50 billion of taxpayers money dedicated to the reconstruction of Iraq, and freed Iraq from a brutal crime family, the Americans are leaving without control of the oil. I think finally, perhaps America has actually taken the high moral ground...cont
@adstanra others, including Russia, China, France, Germany, Canada, wanted, weapons inspections and sanctions in perpetuity. Of course we're not going to be able to watch two timelines unfold. Perhaps in 10 to 15 years we may be able to determine whether or not the Iraqis are better off now than they were. Certainly either option was not going to be pleasant. You are right though, that the West must take the high moral ground, because I believe that liberty for humanity comes through our ideals.
@adstanra cont....as explained before, I think this is very difficult to do in foreign affairs when your enemy, the Soviets, the Chinese, fundamental Islamists don't really care about liberty and freedom. Also very difficult to do when your entire nation is dependent on oil. The moment the oil stops flowing is the moment that people start dying!..it is as bad as that! I hope that the Middle East and Asia will find democracy. I don't know how else to secure self-determination.
@adstanra Good morning to you; hope you had a good weekend.
I don't agree with your reasoning here. It appears you imply it's ok for the rich powerful nation; the civilised one, to take reserves belonging to other people and other countries. Is that your claim?
@no1hoopsman Good morning Friend. Well, i don't think the US has taken any reserves. If oil is missing, then someone stole it unlawfully and there needs to be an investigation. Maybe the oil went to George Bush, but I highly doubt it. Maybe it was siphoned off downstream by a criminal? Maybe the oil count was wrong? At any rate , the US is leaving with the oil in the control of the Iraqis. this is far better than it being in the control of Saddam.
@adstanra Imagine China is the most powerful country; owns more wealth and guns than any other power (not impossible) and the Chinese regard their gov and their way of life as the best, as the ultimate. Must be if they are the most powerful nation. They fall out with our leaders; accuse them of wanting or having WMD, muster up enough support worldwide (the willing) to apply sanctions. After all, our countries (US/UK) haven't had a year without war since the 2nd WW; millions have been killed
@adstanra And I say to you that is what GG promotes here; self determination of the people of each country. This was afforded to the US, and should be afforded to others in the same manner; not foisted upon them as by the US/UK, but something which is from the ground roots of the people, not the wishes of our politicians.
@adstanra Galloway argues for self determination of the people by the people for the people; he was brave in talking food and aid and medicine into Gaza and his arrival was used by the media; but he spoke up for the oridnary person; not the gov in Gaza; he doesn't support Hamas and has said that publicly and on his radio show. That the US co's control who gets the contracts now; mostly US co's, and that billions of $ of Iraqi oil "went missing" (exactly what Rumsfeld has asked Saddam for) stinks
@no1hoopsman It is clear to me that you are a person concern for people. The American involvement in the Iran-Iraq war has been well documented. My opinion is that the Americans did support Iraq, but it was a lukewarm support and not official. Some companies were able to sell helicopters as dual-purpose and there may have been some recon help. I don't know what evidence you are referring to that United States was helping Iran. The majority of weapons and money to Saddam was supplied by...con't
Galloway is a shamed; ashamed at his government for bombing Iraq for 10 years before invading it...... to save the people of Iraq.... the same ones they had been bombing and starving for 10 years ! The duplicity of the western governments is the staggering problem
no1hoopsman 1 week ago
@no1hoopsman But that hypocrite is not ashamed of supporting the dictators responsible for the massacres in Syria, Darfur, Tianamen and Iraq under Saddam`s tyranny (err, "strength, courage, indefatigability", like that slut said)
skepticaldemocrat 1 week ago
@skepticaldemocrat You are as wrong as Bliar and Dubya and as truthful; he supports the people not the dictators; his record is in Hansard not You Tube doctored clips; you really need to listen and think; honestly ...you will get better
no1hoopsman 1 week ago
@no1hoopsman Still blind and deaf to the truth, kid. Because you want to...
skepticaldemocrat 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@skepticaldemocrat You wouldn't know the truth if it hit you square in the face; it's looking at you right now out of this debate; the innocent women and children of Iraq bombed and maimed and murdered; after we had starved them for 10 years with sanctions that the UN confirms killed millions...and you try to use a word like Truth ?
no1hoopsman 1 week ago
What about the burning wounds of the Falujah innocent worm food?
TODB0AMER 3 weeks ago
Does Galloway have any shame?
sol3a1 3 weeks ago 3
TWAT
jaylpp12 1 month ago
@jaylpp12 And once again
no1hoopsman 1 month ago
I can't be arsed with you go out and get some pussy, arguing with people on here when you have nothing to argue with, it's not a valid debate when you keep saying thats shit
jaylpp12 1 month ago
@jaylpp12 Taking the easy way out the back door are you; no hassle here but this wasn't a debate in any case, no one to debate
no1hoopsman 1 month ago
Hitch would have been a great President or at least, Congress...
stevethul1 1 month ago in playlist Christopher Hitchens
Already missing you ...thanks for leaving so much. The greatness of a man or woman is what they leave behind to grow.
arniemazmax 1 month ago
the problem is with liberals who hate jews, they also hate white supremacy and they also hate jews as well as arabs, and arabs hate judea always have since before islam was even made up, and i do say MADE UP, it's a stupid mess any sceptic read the book satanic verses and reserch history, Christopher hitchens was more insightful where as galloway was not even skin deep, anyone condoning the survival of islamic regimes deserve to feel the force of another crusade, Forza Italia/Sicilia!
jaylpp12 2 months ago 5
@jaylpp12 Does that mean you hate the Muslims ? An awful lot of hating going on there mate; best to take a step back in case you are adding to the hatred in the world, next thing you will be like the jew hating liberal and white supremacist hating whatever.
no1hoopsman 1 month ago
@no1hoopsman I have as much hate for red tape liberals as i do for muslims and white supremacists, you obviously did not read what I have wrote about or don't get in what context i wrote it in, if you don't have a point of view fuck off I am just expressing my point of view, Fuck Islam and Liberals and Nazism they all fall under the same banner Hypocrites
jaylpp12 1 month ago
@jaylpp12 I was right, there is a lot of hate going on with you; help definately required, good luck
no1hoopsman 1 month ago
@no1hoopsman you have nothing to say so say nothing, your not an intellect and i am sick of people talking with nothing intelligent to say what so ever
jaylpp12 1 month ago
@jaylpp12 Obviously you define intellect by the amount of hate you spew out, you seem to hate the world and everyone in it; especially if it is hypocrites because this applies to us all at some time or another, anyone with any real sense would be aware of that fact
no1hoopsman 1 month ago
@no1hoopsman Yes i spew hate because im enraged with hate so what, it is brought on by a passion of shitting on silly bastards like you wether it's bars or just debating, politics concerns everyone and we all fall in to stereotypes but people have a choice which stereotype they are, i know i am in the right one are you, i don't think you know what hypocrite means we are not all hypocrites and there is one thing worse than a hypocrite and thats a coward scared of expressing his views
jaylpp12 1 month ago
@jaylpp12 Hatred and passion in the same statement; glad to hear you have passion, does that include compassion I wonder? No shit at my end, you are the only one spewing it out mate
no1hoopsman 1 month ago
From 4:54 - 5:48 and this was 2005!
JasonERF 2 months ago 4
RIP Hitch.. you will be missed
Elcristoph 2 months ago 21
something very interesting, this event has been posted by this uploader and another guy neocon,
on neocons channel comment and dissent against hitchens is not allowed...
blackbahadur 2 months ago
Christopher Hitchens is a fucking genius.
K3yB04dG000n 2 months ago 20
Best to research the UK parliament records to see what GG said about Saddam; he destroyed the Senate hearings with these facts; still delivering aid to starving people of Gaza so his courage is beyond question I suggest, and remember it was Galloway who wanted the appearance at the senate hearing not the other way round .. bet Norm Clowman regrets that decision, and Rumsfeld of course with his meetings with Saddam
no1hoopsman 4 months ago
Whoever we side with i think we should appreciate the honesty of both men.Could you imagine Bush,Blair,Cameron etc doing this?
lagutoboy82 4 months ago
@lagutoboy82 "...we should appreciate the honesty of both men."
Galloway is a lying POS and an Islamic apologist run by the Arabs. 5 minutes worth of research even here on YT will prove what I say is true.
Galloway is inapable of honesty when it come to this subject. Watch as Hitchens tears him up later.
wideawake123 4 months ago 2
I was against this war 100% until christopher hitchens gave his argument and the more I watch this debate the more his vision rather than Galloway's his the right one .
vashna3799 5 months ago 3
@vashna3799 Really ? Even after all we now know and that which has taken place? Where we are talking to the "terrorists and insurgents" and using tribal leaders to regain some kind of structure for running the country in Iraq ? Even when we know Bliar and Bush lied to get us to war and retractions from top US/UK politicians; and the mess that part of the world is in as well as the financial mess we are in; billions of dollars have gone toward this disaster of a war
no1hoopsman 4 months ago
@no1hoopsman Well if there wouldn't have been an intervention Saddam Hussein and his brutal crime family would still be de facto rulers of iraq .Yes I know billions of dollars and billions of pounds have gone in this war and I'm pissed off too but like whats happned in Libya if history shows in 50 years time that the west didn't just sit on its ass and let the oppressed peoples of the muslim world be treated like shit we can be proud of that ,and don't forget its the fanatics who hate the west.
vashna3799 4 months ago 4
@vashna3799 But we helped oppress them; this is the problem, even now in Libya they are uncovering where the west was complicit in torture; we sent people there to be tortured. We also armed Saddam and trained many of their "special forces", and we didn't give a shit about the Iraqi people while we were starving and bombing them or when we armed and guided Saddam against Iran ... whose side are we on ? There is no justification for our stance; we are part of the oppression
no1hoopsman 4 months ago
@vashna3799 well said...thank you.
adstanra 4 months ago 2
Respond to this video... fascinating. look at what is happening in Syria. Libya, Egypt. a little liberty goes a long way. Galloway looks like an idiot now....doesn't he. How Brilliant is CH !
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I use to admire Galloway as spokesman for the underdog but now I see him as an masochistic apologist for suicidal terrorists and fundalmentalist muslims who he claims are "radical" ,they're not, as Hitch points out ,they are the most reactionary bunch of people on the planet who want nothing more than the end of civilisation.
vashna3799 3 months ago 2
@vashna3799 good point...agree.
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra The liberty in the Arab countries is precisely because of the movement Galloway supports; the right of the people to determine their own leaders, not someone imposed on them supported by US/UK weapons and arms and finance as Saddam and Gadaffi and Mubarak were
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman The right of people to determine their own fate is what Hitchens has always supported. I don't know what else to say about Galloway when I see videos of him supporting Dictators. The world of foreign policy is very complex. I wonder what the world would have been like, if the US has not had a forceful self-interest in these countries. I suspect they would now be soviet controlled-Galloway perhaps feels badly about that. Saddam was more supported by France, china and russia.
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra also ..i wonder what Galloway thinks when it was NATO that finally helped free Libia, at great personal cost.......why would he think this was a good idea , but not the freedom of the Iraqis from Saddam.....would he counsel the invasion of Syria? Perhaps you know...
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra They can't accuse Galloway of anything other than contempt for Gadaffi; well documented and it was Tony Bliar who was close to Libya, and we now know the Libyans tortured people on behalf of the US/UK secret services; how much concern was that for liberty and freedom I wonder ?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman Gallaway has stated that the worst day of his life was when the Soviet Union collapsed. It has been well documented that he has praised dictators in Iraq and Syria. It hardly appears to me that he is someone hoping for people to choose their own leaders. Following Gaddafi's revelations about his own weapons of mass destruction program, the West tried to work with him. This seemed quite reasonable at the time.The very foundation of the United States is freedom from authoritarianism!
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra I am not arguing that the west has always acted honorably.they have at times done some bad things, like send prisoners to be tortured in Syria. This is certainly against Western morality, which is why they had to be sent to places like Syria! At times we have supported dictators because we felt the alternatives were worse. Oil, like water, is absolutely necessary for our existence.
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra Because of the people of the country being ignored; this is what has happened in Russia; oligarchs abound and the US/UK are now cautious. Galloway supports the right of the people of each country to determine their own future themselves; not have it imposed upon them. The US/UK were shitting themselves over Egypt because they had no control and very little input, and while the US might be founded as you say, they don't want to let other people have that same right; this is historical
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I don't know what history you're looking at. The US. has been involved in two world wars to free people from tyranny. These are wars that they initially did not want to get involved in and cost them greatly.for the past 60 years they have prevented the spread of Stalinism! the Americans had an official policy of non-involvement in the Iraq Iran war. As you say though, they did some reconnaissance for Saddam that in retrospect was not a good idea, but they felt at the time..cont
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra that Saddam was better than fundamental Islamic regimes like Iran. Why don't you criticize Soviet Chinese and French involvement in that war? When the Americans invaded Kuwait and then Iraq, they found that most of the weapons used by the Iraqis had been supplied by these nations. It is perhaps a bit pathetically ironic that these are the nations that have secured the greatest oil contracts from Iraq. The same nations who supported Saddam the most!
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra I'm looking at recent history like Vietnam and this war in Iraq and others such as in South America where the CIA were involved in covert operations when Nixon was in charge undermining democratically elected governments who didn't go the US way. There has been billions of dollars worth of Iraqi oil "gone missing" during the time the US was in charge; this was part of the fallacy exposed by Galloway (and others) at the Senate hearings; more US co's were charged over oil for food lies
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman well there's no question that the United States has supported dictators. I'm just asking you to understand that foreign-policy decisions are sometimes very difficult. A lot of these countries have been dominated by dictators for many centuries. Sometimes you have to support one dictator over another. The Soviets and Chinese have done the same. The war to free the people of Iraq has cost the American $750 billion and they've lost over 5000 people....cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra con't. I'm not exactly sure how much oil is "missing"but I do think that some of that oil should go to the United States. It turns out that the Iraqis are now going to use that oil to build a better future. They have control over it, as the Americans always said they would. The Americans have done this at great financial cost to themselves.the world is now a better place because Saddam is gone, Qaddafi is gone, Milosevic is gone, Al Qaeda and the Taliban are on the run.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra our financial and power interests...that is the root of the problem. Iraq has the 2nd largest oilfield under it's ground. The only two Arab leaders to propose to the Arab league of oil producers to move away from the US dollar as currency were who do you think? The initials are SH and MG ... now would that be a coincidence do you think? We took no part on any other uprising in the arab spring; none, yet were prominent in Libya and Iraq. The problem is the duplicity of our position ..
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman after a cost of $750 billion to the American economy, I am surprised that the Americans did not take control of Iraqi oil. I understand the strict morality of allowing Iraqis to determine their own future, but this does not seem consistent with the nation who is only in it for the oil. If the nation is going to spend all that money and lose 5000 people in the process there has to be some self-interest. Otherwise we would be invading every nation with a despotic dictator.con't
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra con't...there is no such thing as a universal policy with foreign affairs. We have to make individual decisions based on the evidence available at the time. It might appear that we are being two faced sometimes, but that's reality. We must consider our financial and power interests, the logistics of the operation proposed etc. we must also consider our own self interest! Having apparently got nothing out of the entire exercise for themselves, the Americans look a bit foolish.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Self interest ? Take Iraqi oil ? Financial and power interests ? Do you realise what you are saying here ? This is the lanaguage of the schoolyard bully; he will determine what other people think and do. Galloway alludes to this contradiction when the US took control of it's affairs from the UK; it was right that the people of US had self determination ... hence it is wrong to deny it to others, and the key is self determination ... not US financial determination
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman this is not the language of a schoolyard bully. Saddam was a schoolyard bully! He was one of the worst dictators that ever lived on the planet. Would you have recommended that we simply watch the Iraqis misery? We have now put Iraq on the right path towards self-determination. These people needed to be rescued. If this operation was about US financial determination that it was a complete failure. They have not begun to recover the costs of this operation...cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Iraqis on the other hand, who now have control over their vast oil reserves, can now determine their own financial security.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra You are absolutely right about the cost; you take the position of Galoway here; US big business benefitted at the cost of the taxpayer; have you read about the history of Vietnam ? Abpout where every war benefits arms and munition suppliers ? The ordinary people pay the price; and yet who determines we go to war ? Politicians with links to big business; put there by big business... don't you sense a link here ?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman well I'm not here to defend the activities of big corporations. I don't think Hitchens would either. They need to be regulated and controlled. Galloway however seems to want to blame all the misery in the world on the United States. He is perhaps lucky that the United States exists, otherwise I fear he would be speaking German or Russian right now. Vietnam was a failure, but I wonder what you think about Korea and Chinese support for North Korean dictatorship?
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra it is perhaps one of the twist of fate that the most powerful nation of all time is instructed by its own constitution, founded through the rebellion of colonialization. What other nation in history of mankind would not have used all that power to take over the world? Certainly if not for the United States, I argue, the Soviet Union and China would be in control of everything. The Americans are not perfect, but like Hitchens, I hope that their fundamental ideals will prevail.
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra I don't agree that US is the most powerful nation ever; Rome was far more powerful relatively, and far more successful. Galloway supports the US people; that is why he is against the war and the killing of young US soldiers; he clearly states this in the debate; it is a great point. The problem is their fundamental ideals don't match with reality; this is the point. There is no self determination for Cuba allowed; it's been under war conditions for years now
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman you have a point with respect to relative power in Rome, but my point was that United States expansionism must be tempered by its own constitution, built on ideals of freedom from authoritarianism. I can see that you wish that humans find self determinism but this is not going to happen if we do not resist forces like communism and despotism. These are the antithesis of self-determination. What do you think the world's going to be like when the Chinese reach their potential?
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I have faith in humanity; we should also stand up for universal human rights; at the moment Israeli blood is viewed as more valuable than Arab blood for example. I marched against the conflict in Gaza along with British Jews against the war who were side by side with Muslim Brotherhood against the war; but you would not get that impression from the media today; a media with an agenda, and human rights isn't one of them.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I understand. I have faith in humanity as well, which is why I want it to be free and will oppose anything that stands in its way. If you look at Hitch's life, this has been his mission. I am uncomfortable doing nothing in the face of despots and crime families who torture their own people, limiting human freedom.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra And part of the tragedy is we are not made to be killers; war is horrendous to those who fight; the vast majority of those who have hand to hand combat or close fighting are scarred for life. I think Galloway taking food and medicine to the people of Gaza is the right way to fight oppression. He stood up for the people who had no voice; Hitchens prefers debating halls and book rooms, and the only thing he has done was the waterboarding which changed his view on torture .. instantly
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I'm not sure that you are accurate in your description of Hitchens. I think he has been a huge proponent for freedom and liberty for oppressed people. He may not be popular, but he is true to his ideals. I'm suspicious of Galloway. I'm not sure he really is interested in freedom. I don't know what to say when he salutes Saddam, praises the Syrian monarch and his sad at the collapse of the Soviet Union. Strange.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Hitchens is a great speaker and has wit and charm; suited to drawing room repartee, but here in this with a great Parliamentarian such as Galloway I think he succumbs. Hitch's oratory style is not suited to the combative element in parliamentary debate. I like his brother Peter as well, but disagree with Hitch and Galloway on lots of areas, but in relation to this issue; Galloway walks it for me; Hitch has since had to defend his position of support for Bush et al since then
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman if you know Hitchens, then you know he is no supporter of George Bush. he takes a stand though in support of the intervention in Iraq, because he believes that it was necessary to free these people from a terrifying dictator.He has been excessively bold in his stance.
How do you defend Galloway's praise of Saddam and Al Said? How would you have proposed the world deal with Saddam?
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Galloway has explained clearly; his praise was for the Iraqi people, same in Gaza. His answers at the Senate hearing nullified any claims to the contrary and his record against Saddam is in the UK parliamentary records. I wouldn't have supplied Saddam with anything other than medicine and goods for the people, and he was no threat; Iraq was a defeated country before the war, 10 years of sanctions and it was on it's knees. I need to go now, "speak" later, take care, I enjoyed this.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I appreciate that you have to go. I guess I have the last word then.I have seen the video of Galloway saluting Saddam. This was the same strength, courage and indefatigability that allowed him to be the most ruthless dictator of the past 20 years; that allowed him to control his people. Galloway is specifically addressing Saddam and his claim that he was speaking of the Iraqi people is not believable. His support for the Syrian monarchy is equally scandalous..take care
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra The Iraqi interpretor confirmed the translation issue; in Glasgow parlance if Galloway had said you'se (which is seen as bad English but common Scots) the meaning would have been clear to every Scot. But of course at that time all the politicians in US/UK were doing business with Saddam. Galloway never sold him weapons or guns; he was a lowly politician with middle east connections from his early days in Dundee; Dundee was linked with Beirut at that time, that was in the 60's.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra And I suggest to you that this whole war is a crime; it was never for the Iraqi people who we were starving and bombing for 10 years prior; it wasn't about WMD, and regime change is illegal, Saddam was a barrier against Al Qaeda; OBL wanted Saddam killed as well, so ask yourself ...who benefitted from the war ? If you can find out the recipients of all the billions of dollars spent in this war then you might have a wee clue. Have a good day; hear from you later.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I'm not sure what companies you are speaking of, perhaps weapons companies? Following spending $700 billion and losing 5000 men, Americans withdraw without control of Iraqi oil, the contracts and sovereignty over this oil is completely in the hands of the Iraqis-who now at least have a chance at self determination..... which you and Galloway seemed to hope for------ but was impossible under Saddam.....take care
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra lol...a restatement----what powerful country, after having spent billions of dollars and lost thousands of men,leaves the country they have just defeated without the booty----have the Russians or Chinese ever done that? The British, the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Germans,the Turks, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Babylonians, the Asyrians....the leaders and governments of these Nations would laugh at the Americans.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra In relation to the Iran/Iraq war, it is well known the US was helping both Iraq and Iran. You see it's best to play both sides of the coin; prompt Saddam to have a go against Iran by aiding him; spy technology and logistics and ingratiate yourself to Iraq; and let's be cute about it and help Iran as well; we need improved relationships there and what better way than to aid them againts Saddam; that madman who is really the cause of the trouble. When two enemies foght best to help both
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra That's what happened in the Iran/Iraq war; US/UK were on both sides at the same time; this was covered in just after the war. So take a step back and reconsider how the covert operations in self interest go; this was the reality and is now exposed in Libya as well; Gadaffi was a tyrant (just like Galloway called Saddam and is recorded in Hansard) and "the west" was calling him such; Lockerbie and all that; YET at the same time, US/UK detainees were being tortured by him on our behalf
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra The US/UK sent their prisoners to be interrogated by the Libyan secret service; and this collusion is now out in the open; that's the problem when real liberators are in charge as opposed to our own forces uncovering incriminating documents that turn out to be forgeries. See the difference ? So now the US/UK families that had their government support over Lockerbie now know they were working hand in glove with the same people who (allegedly) caused Lockerbie Pan-Am disaster.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra I wonder how that will be portrayed in the media? Doesn't promote much faith in our security people as to what they tell us and how they manipulate things does it? This is the real world of subterfuge; they don't give a shit about the ordinary of Iraq or Iran or any other country; it's about perception. This is Big Brother in action today; the box in the middle of the wall spewing propaganda; Gadaffi a tyrant (but he is our pal as well) Liberty and Freedom for all (well some) we shout
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra Galloway was no different from any politician meeting Saddam (or the Queen or ?) in acting with decorum and dignity; that was all. It would be thoughtless to do other; but of course when he met the 2nd time it was to request time for the weapons inspectors; they didn't show much of that; and Tony Benn one of the UK's most respected politicians met Saddam around the same time for the same reason; Galloway and Benn are anti war. It is easy and suits the propaganda to blame Galloway
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra But of course they suffered greatly for it; the senate hearing was a triumph for Galloway; finished Coleman really and exposed their bias to the world; it turned out to be the US co's were the biggest breaker of sanction that their gov imposed. NO further action against Galloway, even tho he asked for them to do it in open court; nothing, nada, niente. Now that in itself should tell us a lot; after all innocent until proven guilty etc. and this is why Hitch wanted this debate
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra And if our countries send our soldiers to die like mercenaries in an illegal uncalled for unjustifiable and unnecessary war for regime change because we don't (all of a sudden) like the ruler while portarying our concern for the ordinary people we have been starving and bombing for 10 years and think it is okay for us to take reparation against a country we invaded for our own ends ... what does this make our standards look like ? We are liars and killers for money. Have a good day
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman how would you have contained Saddam, given that you admit that he was a horrible person? I suspect you were against sanctions. Do you think that Saddam, if left alone would have acquired weapons of mass instruction?
how do you account for the fact that the Americans are in the process of leaving Iraq without control over the oil?
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Saddam was containable to a greater degree than our politicians I suggest; the marches against the war were met with contempt; the plans for the war were made well before any "final official decision" in the parliamentary process was taken and this is an issue just now with commissions looking into the lead up to the conflict; Tony Bliar lied to the parliament and the people to justify an illegal war when SH was no threat, and certainly not the innocent people of Iraq
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra The thing about Saddam is he could be bought; his country was on it's knees, 10 years of sanctions, restricted trade would have made the noose tighter, limitations on finance and closer relationships with him would have helped; we end up talking to the terrorists anyway (as we do just now) and if we had kept a dialogue going there was a better chance of compliance; even the weapons inspectors wanted to pursue that route, but propaganda gets in the way
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman Saddam was a narcissistic madman, whose sons were ready to take over the moment he died. This containment with a carrot and stick would have to have continued for decades...all at the expenec of the Iraqi people...more resolutions, more defiance..in perpetuity. It was only threats and bribes that he understood, and I think he eventually would have continued his activities against the Kurds and Shias. Eventually a civil war would have resulted.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra No doubt SH was a madman, he killed many on our behalf though and this is where stumble; our gov's were complicit in the killing don't you see; we gave him license to kill (not that he needed it) and we were party to it. There is a civil war there just now; we (the west) have come out worse because we appear anti muslim and anti arab from a political perspective. How can we be taken seriously in that region when we say we are concerned about human rights? How can we tell others ?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman i am not sure that we could contain Saddam with political moves and buying him,as you suggest. Saddam had lots of money and when we tried to contain him, it led to further suffering of his people, while he built new palaces and monuments to himself. He was a totalitarian despot who's sons were ripe to take over!.The sanctions were levied because Saddam had a history of not cooperating with inspectors because of his narcissism, a fact Galloway should have known before praising him
adstanra 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman also, loved the video of Scotland vs England 3-2. Both my parents are from Glasgow...lol.My father played for Dundee United in the 1940s,while in the RAF. He tells me he once met Stanley Matthews...lol
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Hope your old man is keeping well and you too; you might guess by my handle which side of Glasgow I support. Seems there are quite a few ex pat Scots over there; my Grandparents were over there at one time; grandfather fought in RCMP in 1st world war. Have a good day
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman hmmm, I'm afraid I don't know. My father used to describe how Glasgow was deeply divided religiously.As a child, used to walk past the stadium where Celtic played and spit on the wall. My sister married a Catholic and his grandkids are now Catholic. He has come a long way. I suspect Glasgow has as well.
I think there are more Scots outside of Scotland, and many more who claim to be Scottish lol...BTW, my views on Iraq are not supported by the vast majority of Canadians.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I was with Iraqi's from the North two weeks ago; they are happy Saddam has gone, but their chances of a separate Kurdish state is influenced by others; Turkey doesn't want it and no doubt there will be pressure from them towards the US/UK, and then who knows. GG would say it is up to the people. By the way I'm fine thanks, hope you are keeping well also. I like your choice of films; Inherit the Wind is one of mine. Take it easy
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman The Kurds are, at least, not being persecuted by an evil dictator who hated and gassed them. Saddam was responsible for millions of deaths. He is gone now, but obviously much work is yet to be done. Hopefully Iraqis will get that self determination, now that the Americans are withdrawn ( in December) and they have control over their vast oil reserves. IMO, they needed to be rescued by this madman.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra i think you are reflecting how complicated foreign affairs can be...wrt Kurd for eg. Should we just not have any influence and leave this up to the Russians, fundamental Islamists , Turks, Chinese. I wish we could be isolationistic....but, I am afraid, that would be foolish. We do need to consider our self interest. Balancing that with our ideals in the difficult task...maybe the Kurds should have a nation of their own.....daunting task!
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I'm saying that any influence we exert should be for good; no guns required, building blocks of society but not weapons and logistics. Killing only begets killing in the long run; look at how Northern Ireland hasn't acheived any peace because of long memories and what the soldiers did on bloody sunday. This was a peace march with peaceful protestors shot at on instructions by the UK army; now admitted after years and years of investigation and millions of pounds spent
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra We shouldn't be in a war for what we can get but for what we can give; but today it is about oil, it is about power and influence for the wrong reasons. Millions of dollars were spent wrongly and needlessly in Iraq; buying tribal leaders who changed allegiance at the drop of a hat or a higher bid elsewhere. We more than anybody need to meet the high standards required for equality of life and basic human decency for ALL people of this earth; not just the ones who side with us
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra Oil is exchanged in US $, this is a controlling factor. I mentioned some time ago that there were only 2 Arab leaders who wanted OPEC to move away from the US currency; Saddam and Gadaffi.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I am not sure what your point is.Perhaps you can explain it to me.
This liberation was not perfect . There are allegations of missing oil and funds--identified by the special commission from the US. This needs to be investigated. They did't provide security fast enough.
one could easily point to atrocities committed during WW2 and the civil war - but that does not take away from the arguments for these wars, horrible as they were.BTW, I appreciate this interesting conversation
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra My point is that we in the West have lost the moral high ground; our support and association for dictators when they are doing our bidding undermines any credibility we have in any sphere; political, moral or philosophical. Ordinary people in the street know this now. This duplicity we dish out is being rendered to us now; just think about Pakistan for example; hiding OBL it appears, aiding the bombing of the hotel in India and atrocities against US/UK forces
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I can see that we are both interested in self-determination and liberty, even though we disagree about how to achieve that. American foreign policy has been governed, over the past 60 years, by three things. 1-the resistance of the spread of communism 2-the resistance of the spread of fundamental Islam 3-the procurement of oil. With respect to all of these, there have been grave mistakes made, although I would argue that these things needed to be done. I do not believe that..cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Bolshevism or Maoism are conducive to liberty, nor fundamental Islam. The Cold War was brutal. The procurement of oil is simply a necessity. People start dying the moment the oil stopped flowing. The West has known this for quite some time. It is well known that Britain and France, along with Imperial Russia had formulated the Sykes-pac agreement to divide up the former Ottoman empire. The main consideration there was oil. It is hugely to our benefit, that these oil nations..cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra are not in the complete control of Soviets, Maoists or Islamic fundamentalists... or mad dictators!...or large corporations. I am confident that if there is to be liberty and self-determination for humanity, it is going to be found through the ideals grounded in the American Constitution. We have had to do business with some unsavory characters, because at the time it served our self-interest, and we felt the alternative was worse. All the good we might do, may not be enough...con't
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra to stop dictators, fundamentalists, and Bolsheviks. We cannot be isolationists. Saddam came into power for all sorts of reasons, but he was as possible for invading two countries and the deaths of close to 2 million people. There were only a certain number of ways to deal with him,all of them horrible. Following his infection from Kuwait, Saddam said that his greatest mistake was that he did not get nuclear weapons before the invasion. He hated Kurds, Shias,Jews,Persions, and Americans
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I think with Saddam he would be like everyone else; we tend to like those who like us and have a problem with the rest; minor tho it may be. The root of the problem is contained in your response really; self determination of the people v the aims of our gov's .... which do not equate even tho liberty and freedom are spoken off. I think it is this duplicity that undermines our efforts and motives now and as I've said we have long ago lost any claim to the moral high ground
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra I suggest to you that there is a great deal of this issue about perspective; we have to walk in the other mans shoes; freedom fighters are often portrayed as terrorists; when people are defending their own homes and country as we invade; they are referred to as insurgents; a technical term rather than someone defending their house and family. Put the shoe on the other foot and consider how we would feel if say the most powerful nation didn't like what out leader did ? Can you imagine?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra Ordinary people in Iraq and Afghanistan had their homes bulldozed wiothout warning and in minutes for line of fire and other logistical issues; the safety of the soldier became paramount for political reasons to justify the war or at least minimise the negative reaction (Vietnam was a big lesson) and so freedom and liberty of the innocent people we were supposed to be saving was ignored. We lose any moral and political reasoning at that point.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra And, altho my politics isn't in line with GG, I have to agree with him here. Our abuse of the people leads to retaliation, we bring it on ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even our poltical allies are against us; Pakistan has been double dealing for a long time. We have opened a war we couldn't win, have to try and make a retreat of some sorts, caused all sorts of enemies to grow and take up arms against us; this mess is our creation and in this I have to agree with Galloway.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman the history of humanity has been one characterized by the rise of one despot and crime family after another. When it's not a dictator, it's a totalitarian government. Many peoples in the Middle East, like the Iraqis, Kurds, Iranians have been under the control of empires for centuries. In the meantime, they happened to sit on vast oil reserves that are vital to other powerful nations. this is a very difficult and precarious position. Take Pakistan...con't
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra are you really going to blame all of the problems with this nation on the United States? Regardless of how it came to be, we have to somehow deal with this nation. I don't think the United States or anyone else likes the government there, but we have to have relations with them. We are going to approve of some the things they do and disapprove of some other things they do. in Afghanistan, many people have tried to claim that United States is responsible for the Taliban..cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra no doubt that the US supplied arms to people to fight against the Soviets. Was this wrong? Practically every nation in the West was doing that, and Pakistan particularly. The result though, the Taliban, was a disaster. I think you can safely say that this government was completely repressing the freedom and self-determination of the least half its population (the women),and they were training and supplying Al Qaeda-an extreme defective form of Islam.following 911, how would you..con't
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra have dealt with the Taliban? Sanctions? Buy them off? A verbal spanking? I don't have the correct answer. I do however agree that we must, almost always, take the high moral ground. I just don't think that that works too well in the face of Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, the Taliban.
As an aside, Qaddafi revealed his WMD program following the invasion of Iraq and we were able to identify links to an network that involved Pakistan and North Korea. Scary!
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra ..in my opinion, Galloway holds an extreme position of hatred towards the United States to the point that he blames everything on the US. He had dinner with Tarik Aziz, Basher Al Said, and saluted one of the worst dictators of all time for his courage, strength and indefatigability. He was sad the day the Soviet Union fell and is a fan of Castro. He may very well be interested in self-determination, but I think his support of these guys may be undermining his goal.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I apologize for the volume is reply today. But you've got me thinking lol. I would not equate these insurgents with freedom fighters. Most of them were representatives of extreme groups and often their activities were directed against the Iraqi people, albeit different factions. If I was really interested in freedom I would have been happy the Americans liberated us but also happy when they left,after a period of stabilization. I would not be bombing mosques, markets or Americans.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra GG is small fry here, he had involvement with middle east people and politics as part of the labour group in Dundee when he was but a boy. His connections are well recorded, he met SH when everybody was praising him, but denounced him after we knew the reality; but our governments didn't. They still did business selling guns and logistics and helicopters and training their special forces and all that stuff. So who is the real criminal here between GG and our Gov's ?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I still find it strange that he was good friends with Aziz after he apparently knows about the regime. Hard to believe that he was not praising the dictator after calling him "Sir" and presenting to him the well wishes of many ( how is Saddam to take that?). Then he is in Syria, praising Al Said and the insurgents ( people on the fringe of Iraqi society blowing up people). what are his thought now about Al Said ( has he said anything about freedom of determination in Syria)?
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra This was really wrapped up after GG destroyed Norm Clownman at the senate hearing. The duplicity and conniving of our gov's was exposed to the world then and it is a matter of record.
GG has nothing to answer for now; every legal action in relation to these claims was won by him; 9 out of 9 against the biggest newspaper organisations round the world with heavy legal teams working for them. This was David humping Goliath again.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman I have never said anything about the charity and accusations about Galloway. Even if he is innocent on that, I have been arguing against his support and friendships with totalitarians like Al Said, Castro and Aziz. ..not to mention Hezbollah.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra GG is in the clear as far as SH goes; recorded in Hansard the official UK Parliamentary history. He has been tried and found not guilty of any wrongdoing so many times it is embarrassing. I wonder if the media will show Tony Bliar cuddling Gadaffi so many times ? Or Rumsfeld meeting SH to supply guns and weapons and deal for oil when we knew he was a tyrannical murderer.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra On my previous illustration of the Might v Right issue; where we are being looked upon as the troublemakers of the world; the US/UK have been at war every month since the end of the 2nd WW, and we can easily fit the bill in terms of aggression and imperialistic movements, of ignoring human dignity (Abu Ghraib and rendition) of supporting terror organisations; the Zionist government would qualify for a start.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra You can try to justify what the aims and actions of the UK/US are; but we are now trying to get out of a war we shouldn't have been in, trying to justify being there, and having not been able to beat the Taliban; no question about that ...... otherwise we would still be there... are now having to face up to deaths of thousands of innocent people and deaths of thousands of soldiers because of an error of political (mis) judgement
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman Well, i do have experience with some Afganis. These people are happy the world invaded. they supported an organization that attacked people in NYC. are you going to justify that? these are a freakish Islamic group that imprisoned their own people ( especially women.). they have a long wy to go, but the Taliban had to be resisted...not with buying them off or appealing to common ground...
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra We cannot impose our values of killing people to tell them not to kill, this is the sand on which we founder. Once we export terrorism we become the terrorists we are supposed to be at war against. It matters not a jot that you or we rationalise it, the bottom line is we export terrorism and killing first so we can them export goods and import (and control) oil and reserves of other countries.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman If you are for self - determination, you should be very happy the Taliban and Saddam are not in control. Both of these needed to die. These are people that evolved over centuries, caused by a slew of factors. You seem to want to blame the US for all the ills on the planet. Do you think the Soviets, Chinese, French, Turks, religious factionalization, Persian empire,tribalism also had something to do with it?
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Hi, hope you are well.I'm not against Americans as such just like I'm not against any other race; I'm against the actions of governments which are taken for the wrong reasons and then lie to the people to justify their position. This is what happened in Iraq. Our politicians were more complicit with Saddam, and only turned against him when it suited them so to do; the Iraqi people I suggest were an afterthought. It was really oil they wanted.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra The problem is that the oil went missing under the US watch; when they were dishing our millions of dollars in cash to have people back them and become pro US/UK, and also to get things done.With so much power and control at hand I think we can safely say that the oil went into the coffers of US Business and Politicians in my opinion. It is proving to be that over here in the UK as certain politicians allied to Bliar are being exposed now
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman have they traced the missing oil to Blair and politicians?My reading of the "missing oil" , is that they are not sure where it went or even if there is any missing oil. As far as I know, no one has connected it to any american oil company or politician. I do believe , that in December, the Americans are going to withdraw without control of the oil. Perhaps those who argued that it is all about the oil are the ones being exposed.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra The great irony is that the bidding for the oil contracts in Iraq was done in public I believe; on a TV Reality style program where co's had to bid. Apparently Shell/BP did well as also did the Russians and Chinese. So much for open tendering and democracy but I understand that the US Co's did better than anyone for tendering to reconstruct Iraq. Certainly the Kurds I was with two weeks ago told me that.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman As far as I know the process was done as a usual business contract. The Iraqis decided. Perhaps people will now argue that the Americans did it to secure rebuilding contracts. the point is, that the Kurds, like other Iraqis have control over their destiny now,whereas their future was horrific in light of the prospect of Saddam's sons in control for decades. there certainly was not going to be any rebuilding under sanctions and crime family rule. Your Kurdish friends must be thankful
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra I think in respect of the Taliban; you have to remember that we are not winning this war, and the more we make mistakes and kill innocent people the more we are despised; just as the Russians were when Charlie Wilson and the US Gov was supplying and aiding the Taliban. One might say we reap what we sow; death and destruction might just be following us now.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman i am not sure too many people would say that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are better off now, than they were prior to the invasion ( supported by the UN). Perhaps Galloway is sad that the soviets did not win the war during their invasion, but I think the US was trying to help people resist the spread of soviet control. The Taliban enslaved 50 % of their people and subjected the rest to their horrific brand of Islam and supported Al Qaeda's attacks on 911..
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra many people have criticized US neglect of Afganistan following the defeat of the Soviets, but i am sure you would not have wanted US involvement...unfortunately, this lead to Pakistani involvement and the rise of the Taliban. surely you are happy that the Taliban is not in control of Afghanistan right now....nor the Soviets. Foreign affairs is very difficult ! The war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda continues.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra It was supposed to be the failed war in Afghaniostan that brought the break up of the Soviet Union; financially too much to bear, and we might also ask the same question for us; too much to bear financially and politically and also from the perspective of the people. We're not exporting goodness and kindness or democracy here I suggest; it might be presented as such by the media, but as you state yourself, there is an element of self interest, too much I think.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman Well, It ultimately was self interest that brought the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. As much as I would like the US to rescue all peoples from tyranny, that is impossible. i think it was worthwhile to resist Soviet expansion. i think we do have to secure oil. i think it is a good think that Saddam is gone, and the Taliban needed to be fought. I am not sure the export of goodness and kindness is enough in the face of the Taliban Saddam, Stalin or Hitler..wish it were.
adstanra 3 months ago 4
@adstanra
If you think we do need to secure oil, then let the Canadians know. To my surprise, and to many people's surprise, The United States gets the majority of its oil from Canada. I always thought it was from The Middle East.
shatwood 2 months ago
@adstanra In my opinion, it is for the people of the respective country to determine for themselves; hence regime change is illegal in the UN as the most powerful nation can easily construct a reason to invade and have a group of "willing" countries to back them poltically. War is only viable in my opinion when it is self defense; and this is where one adopts the moral high ground.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra I'm aware that not everything is so clear cut; I've been far too many placesand met too many people to know it isn't easy; but if our values of justice and equality for all are to bear fruit then I think we must show that at all times; not just lip service for the sake of the media, and certainly not media led. Enough for today, hoe you have a good one.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman hope you have a good day as well. I appreciate your opinion and can see that justice and equality for all appears to be what we both want. I agree that we do need to portray this. Not sure Saddam, Soviets, Taliban,Al Said, al Qaeda give a dam about this and resistance of them is going to difficult. i think it is finally more than lip service that the Americans are leaving without control of the oil. all the best
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Good day to you when you get this. I should say that criticism for our leaders and their actions isn't providing support for the opponents; I am no more a supporter of rampant Capitalism then raging Communism; both have failed the people and it is the common man who picks up the pieces. The rich and powerful go on getting richer and more powerful. This happened in Russia as well as the West.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman Good day my friend. I agree that criticism of our leaders is not support for the opponents. I consider it a sign of freedom that we can criticize our leaders. I laugh that Bill Clinton could not even have an affair without people finding out. We need a multitude of media to keep watch on our leaders..not to mention corporations.. i love it that Iraq now has a good number of newspapers and media. hopefully they will build some sort of democracy to keep the leaders in check./
adstanra 3 months ago 2
@adstanra My main complaint is mans inhumanity to man. In these wars it is always the poorest and those least able to protect themselves who get hit the hardest. And it is our politicians who tend to want war; but never send their own kids, and we end up negotiating to get out. We are doing that now with Pakistan and the Taliban; our generals over here have admitted this.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman i know what you mean. the laws of physics are such that the weak are preferentially the ones that suffer the most. the history of mankind is one of domination of the weak by the strong...who usurp power. the animal world is the same. Hopefully, we are moving in an unprecedented direction where the powers are under some sort of check..through democracy, freedom of speech and dissent. My criticism of people like GG is that they seem to have this masochistic tendency to want to blame..
adstanra 3 months ago 3
@adstanra the west for all horrors on the planet. They excuse groups like Al Qaeda, Taliban, Soviets, Castro, Saddam, Al Saad by blaming us....I don't mind people criticizing, but there seems to be a bit of an unbalanced criticism IMO ( for what it is worth lol). the more groups like these get into power, the less freedom for all. I am sure you agree with that. And regardless of mistakes in the past, we have to deal with the present.
adstanra 3 months ago 4
@adstanra But what sickens me as well is the human cost in all of this. Lives and limbs lost and for what? Not for freedom as the people now have civil war on their doorstep once again. We need to be more aware of what we offer to the World in my opinion. The view I get from the perspective of the poor and 3rd world countries isn't anything like we imagine.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra It is precisely because we vote for our leaders and give them our trust and power that they should be accountable to us and not big buisness that we query what they do. But, I guess we have run our course here in this exchange. I wish you the very best and hope life is good for you. Take care
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman yes, thank you...I have enjoyed this thoughtful exchange of ideas....a bit more civilized that Hitch and Galloway eh? all the best to you.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Just how would that feel to have them come into Canada ... without your agreement or permission ...... and take your oil and coal and mineral reserves and say it should be shared with the world for the benefit of all?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra When Rome ruled the world; all Romans had free bread. This is the same as the US getting cheap oil; lower than anywhere else and more readily than in Iraq. There is no way we can justify this unless we arrange a new structural moarl and legislative system that suits the West ... this is what is happened .. we have re-written the rules on human dignity, on governments, on how countries should act and behave .. and all to suit our business model. Liberty for others is conditional
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra We us eother countries to carry out torture on our behalf, use and supply WMD's to rogue nations and dictators, are interested only in self advancement to the detriment of ordinary people in their own country; force our values onto others as the norm. .. What do you think ? The first reaction would be to defend our way of life and our politics and values; but this is the law of the powerful; not the just or right.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra With these facts in mind; all of a sudden a powerful and rich and just nation has "a duty" to invade our country, to impose right values so they don't get attacked by us; our rockets can reach their country no problem so see how dangerous we are to peace and harmony in this world ? This is the other view; we walk in other mans shoes to see and know and feel what is their reality. I suggest that is why we have nol right being in Iraq or Afghanistan to impose our oil based values on them
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra Apart from that; we are getting beat out there; the Taliban is a strong as before if not stronger. Our efforts to win hearts and minds have long since gone by the wayside; when did you last hear that phrase used ? Our army generals are now saying openly we can't win, couldn't win and want out. Nor would we expect to give in to the "Chinese armies" (in the story) if they invaded us. This I suggest is a perfectly plausible scenarion to consider; it is the reasons we use being inverted
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman good morning, rather afternoon in Scotland. After reading your posts, I wonder if you are truly reflecting the feelings of the Iraqi people. You talk about them as though they had freely chosen Saddam to be their leader. They had no self-determination whatsoever under this man! The Kurds and the Shia's had been gassed and brutally repressed. The world had issued economic sanctions on them for over 12 years. The activities of Saddam had been responsible for 2 million deaths...cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra con't. ..it is now that they are free of this man and have the semblance of a democratic constitution, and control over their resources that they may eventually gain self-determination and liberty. After spending $750 billion, including $50 billion of taxpayers money dedicated to the reconstruction of Iraq, and freed Iraq from a brutal crime family, the Americans are leaving without control of the oil. I think finally, perhaps America has actually taken the high moral ground...cont
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra others, including Russia, China, France, Germany, Canada, wanted, weapons inspections and sanctions in perpetuity. Of course we're not going to be able to watch two timelines unfold. Perhaps in 10 to 15 years we may be able to determine whether or not the Iraqis are better off now than they were. Certainly either option was not going to be pleasant. You are right though, that the West must take the high moral ground, because I believe that liberty for humanity comes through our ideals.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra cont....as explained before, I think this is very difficult to do in foreign affairs when your enemy, the Soviets, the Chinese, fundamental Islamists don't really care about liberty and freedom. Also very difficult to do when your entire nation is dependent on oil. The moment the oil stops flowing is the moment that people start dying!..it is as bad as that! I hope that the Middle East and Asia will find democracy. I don't know how else to secure self-determination.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Good morning to you; hope you had a good weekend.
I don't agree with your reasoning here. It appears you imply it's ok for the rich powerful nation; the civilised one, to take reserves belonging to other people and other countries. Is that your claim?
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman Good morning Friend. Well, i don't think the US has taken any reserves. If oil is missing, then someone stole it unlawfully and there needs to be an investigation. Maybe the oil went to George Bush, but I highly doubt it. Maybe it was siphoned off downstream by a criminal? Maybe the oil count was wrong? At any rate , the US is leaving with the oil in the control of the Iraqis. this is far better than it being in the control of Saddam.
adstanra 3 months ago
@adstanra Imagine China is the most powerful country; owns more wealth and guns than any other power (not impossible) and the Chinese regard their gov and their way of life as the best, as the ultimate. Must be if they are the most powerful nation. They fall out with our leaders; accuse them of wanting or having WMD, muster up enough support worldwide (the willing) to apply sanctions. After all, our countries (US/UK) haven't had a year without war since the 2nd WW; millions have been killed
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra And I say to you that is what GG promotes here; self determination of the people of each country. This was afforded to the US, and should be afforded to others in the same manner; not foisted upon them as by the US/UK, but something which is from the ground roots of the people, not the wishes of our politicians.
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@adstanra Galloway argues for self determination of the people by the people for the people; he was brave in talking food and aid and medicine into Gaza and his arrival was used by the media; but he spoke up for the oridnary person; not the gov in Gaza; he doesn't support Hamas and has said that publicly and on his radio show. That the US co's control who gets the contracts now; mostly US co's, and that billions of $ of Iraqi oil "went missing" (exactly what Rumsfeld has asked Saddam for) stinks
no1hoopsman 3 months ago
@no1hoopsman It is clear to me that you are a person concern for people. The American involvement in the Iran-Iraq war has been well documented. My opinion is that the Americans did support Iraq, but it was a lukewarm support and not official. Some companies were able to sell helicopters as dual-purpose and there may have been some recon help. I don't know what evidence you are referring to that United States was helping Iran. The majority of weapons and money to Saddam was supplied by...con't
adstanra 3 months ago