I think I'll spend 5 hours painting a water color and put it up for sale at the local coffee shop and then I'll trade my "5 hour Labor Voucher" for a 5 hour Mechanic Bill for fixing my transmission, or maybe a 5 hour brain surgery for a sick child.
Hell, 5 hours of LABOR is worth 5 hours of LABOR, isn't it??
The "Labor Theory of Value" wouldn't pass muster in an Econ 101 class at the local community college...
@randy95023 I recommend you actually read Marx's own explanation in Capital Vol. 1, Ch. 1. Marx says that the value of a commodity is the amount of "socially necessary labor" expended to produce it. "Socially Necessary Labor" means the amount of labor necessary to produce a given amount of a commodity based on the average conditions of production, technology and skill in a given country at a given period of time. He goes to length to argue against the caricature you make it out to be
@tedrovsky I read Marx in College 35 years ago, reread it in my 30's and reread it again in my late 40's. I agree with most of Marxian POV (Bourgeois exploiting the Proletariat, etc.). That said; A Socialist Economy has no way to find REAL prices. Soviet Union used to watch Western business journals to establish at least 'realistic' prices and insert them into their economy. No "free market", NO realistic prices. To find REAL prices you must turn to your enemies, "The Austrians"...
@MrBigEnchilada Profits, Surplus goods are always produced, Marxian economics or socialists just say that the people who produce(!) the goods, should control what, how, to whom and when to produce them, and not some board members or bosses.
marx LTV is actually more correct than smith/ricardo/locke's LTV, but it is still not very accurate. I like marx's division of labor and the idea of alienation but i dont think a surplus value is necessarily exploitation and profit is not a bad idea.
This is a slight unmeritable man, meet to be sent on errands: And, though others lay labours on this man, to ease ourselves of divers slanderous loads, he shall but bear them as the ass bears gold, to groan and sweat under the business, either led or driven, as they point him the way; and having brought their treasure where they will, then take they down his load and turn him off, like to the empty ass, to shake his ears and graze in commons.
Meritocracy is a myth?! So it doesn't exist?!! You better check that shit. "The poorest people are the one's who work the hardest and receive the least in return"?! Have you even seen a damn Income Statement your entire life?! These workers get paid every single month even if businessowners earn nothing! "They will never escape their suffering"?! Wow... well, if it were not for these loony risk-taking "employers" they would have nothing!!
@61984sd What you say applies to the small business owner but not to the big corporations, where CEOs can earn bonuses and then demand bailouts from the government. You can say that we should not allow bailouts of the big corporations, but it doesn't matter what you think because those corporations own the government, not you. Small businesses exist at the will of the big ones. They are allowed to take the risks and are then either bought up or destroyed when their risks pay off.
Hell yeah. I guess Marx never heard of upward mobility (makes sense because he never had to work being a 'bourgeois' himself). What an idiot! People don't pay other people "just enough so the latter can survive"! People pay other people based on merit and productivity! I.e, good employees get promoted.
@61984sd The myth of meritocracy is a widely held belief but does not reflect the reality of the world in which we reside. The poorest people are the one's who work the hardest & receive the least in return. No matter how hard they work, they will never escape their suffering....and their hard work will continue to make their employers richer & richer while they stay poor.
Topics: Terrorism, War, Law, Politics, Religion, The Issue On The Criminal Liability Of Foretelling The END OF THE WORLD, Other Debated Issues, Philosophy, Science, Others.
Websites: balancedway.yolasite.com
etc.
See Figure 4, which is THE MEANING OF THE PYRAMID, at figure4etc2.yolasite.com
The labor theory of value is straight nonsense. I dont see how any one with common sense can subscribe to it. Maybe in the 1800's. I'm reading Marx's Capital right now. I thought I'd give it a chance. It is turning out to be far more incorrect than I ever thought possible. It is just poor economic theory plain and simple. The law of marginal utility is a far better explanation of value. Anyone with any business sense can see this as well as anyone with basic economic knowledge.
"You seem just the kind of guy I'd like to run into in the real world"
No worries, dipshit. I would have been the first tio be put into a gulag for asking how commies would have wanted to realize all this communistical NONSENSE :-)
Dipshit, I was waiting for such an idiotic and false comment. First, Lenin himself introduced terror and a dictatorship to Russia, simply out of knowing that communism is not possible in FFREEDOM. When freedom exists, you will have as a result, what communist hate the most: INEQUALITY, simply because men are NOT EQUAL, but some are more successful than others. As simple as that ...
And dipshit, there is not state/country that can be "stateless".
My comments on another Marxist vid pending approval lol. what are they scared of ha . first time i have come across this kinda censorship on you tube , doesnt fkin surprise me though ☭ ☭
My comments on another Marxist vid pending approval lol. what are they scared of ha . first time i have come across this kinda censorship on you tube , doesnt fkin surprise me though
@Armando1735 My HONEST THANKS go to our American partners and friends. Without them Western Europe probably would have become the SAME COMMUNISTIC SHOTHOLE that the Eastern bloc was. If someone disagrees, to hell with him. He or she should visit N KOrea, in which South Korea lalso would have turned into, if the US hadnt helped them. Thus, SKorean live in PROSPERITY and FREEDOM, while their NKorean counterparts live in a COMMUNIST CONCENTRATION CAMP.
@qwertypoiu4321 "MARX WAS THAT KIND OF GENIUS WITH THE INTELLECTUAL POWER ABLE TO CREATE WEALTH FOR ALL"
Hahahahahahahahahhaha, good one, good one .. only that Marxist ideas and policies turn every country into a ROTTEN SHITHOLE, where people suffered from HUNGER; POVERTY and LACK of BASIC SUPPLIES.
If there was no profit who would start the business in the first place? As for co ops, they are legal why does everyone not start one? The key is good governance and education for all, low taxes and a love of God.
@hieronomy "EVERYTHING is free! So pratically its better "
Ah, really??? And who do you think will produce these things that are then free??? And why would people do so????
Let me show you what rotten COMMUNISTIC SHITHOLE communism will turn into and what "free products" you can ... buy ... (after a 12 years waiting list :-) )
You brainless leftish, monkey, South Koreans make 30 Times more than their communist counterparth in NK!! 4 Millions of NKoreans starved to death, you dipshit.
"nortk korea is called "juche""
Yeah, u dipshit, and juche includes>
- abolition of private equity&free market
- collectivization and planned economy
- "classless society"
... dipshit, this is all your brainless Marxist monkeys are about.
@joaquinveyron "south korea suffer from injustice, unemployment, "...show me where I said the above? North Korea suffers repression due to socialist state slavery. South korea has a capitalist model. Hence why they are doing fine.
That was sick as hell. Loved all the subtle and exaggerated combination of body movement and speech mannerisms. I think it really conveys the eccentricity of marxs' personality and brilliance of mind.
@nrgetick "Allende HELPED and saved the economy in 3 years! "
Dipshit, look at the FACTS!!!
Allendes socialistic polices only led to the increase of prices of basic goods that were then only available at the black markets, high inflation (600 %), sky high debts which go hand in hand with inflation if you start printing money yourself, high unemployment, the decrease of the real income by somewhat 40 %. It is a school book example of what s going wrong when socialists are in power.
If you'd bother actually reading what socialism is about (power into the hands of workers, and only workers...) or communism (the hands of the people, and specifically that communism only exists with no government) you'd look like less of an idiot ♥
@Nihilanthic You look like an idiot. As of today there are NO so called socialists in the EU or USA who advocate no state and no government ownership of businesses. They want ownership for the governing few, little choice, poverty for the masses and greed for the governing few and their friends.. THAT is socialism. Who would start a business if you never made any profits or the decisions yourself? We would never have any businesses in the first place.
No matter how many times you say it you're not correct. It's still a lie. You are wrong.
Anyone can google or look up socialism in a litany of other scholarly sources and find out what it's actually about, told by the people who are actually socialists. Capitalists such as yourself have as much business talking about socialism as PETA does giving pot roast recipes.
Socialism stands for workers, not the owners or the government. Read history and get over yourself.
@Nihilanthic "told by the people who are actually socialists."...The worst people to explain socialism. Who owns all businesses in Cuba? Castro does and thats why he is worth $1.4 billion.
Socialism is about greed and excess of the governing few. Crushing dreams and freedom while doing it.
That's a lie told by worthless capitalist scumfucks who spread propaganda about the Cuban revolution because they can't stand it that a model for a different kind of society exists & has existed for the past 60 years just 90 miles away from the present-day center of world greed.
The dictator Fulgencio Batista took 400 million dollars from the Cuban National Bank when he fled Cuba. Capitalists are scum. Like you.
@bapyou Ignorant rude socialist evil. Castro has indeed stolen billions and what people did before excuses nothing, Castro is clearly worse as he has stolen even more, and peoples dreams.
@bapyou So Cuba had one corrupt leader followed by another. I feel for the good people of Cuba. They deserve better than the greed and excess of socialistic leaders.
@warriorprince1010 As expected: You are unable to provide a source for your statement that "Castro has indeed stolen billions."
___
"So Cuba had one corrupt leader followed by another. [Cubans] deserve better than the greed and excess of socialistic leaders."
In fact it is captalists who are excessively greedy. The right-wing Cubans in Miami want nothing more than to reestablish the good-old days of greedy pre-Castro Cuban capitalism. Considering their situation, Cubans live pretty well.
@bapyou Castro has indeed been stealing billions from the hard working people of Cuba while keeping them down with socialists dogma. The people who leave Cuba want to follow their dreams and I wish them the best.
@bapyou Isn't it funny how all these right wing loons just spout nonsense, refuse to back up their claims, and then when cornered, spew forth venomous hatred that reveals their inner selves?
@thewideninggyre "Isn't it funny how all these right wing loons . . . refuse to back up their claims"
Especially since the true thieves of Cuban wealth was Fulgencio Batista and his band of thugs. You may know this already: When Batista fled Cuba for the Dominican Republic he and his henchmen relieved the Cuban treasury of about $400 million U.S.
What a wonderful little dictator that Fulgencio was. Dinero o muerte!
""means of production into the hands of the workers"
You want to have a saying in the company you work for??? Buy yourself shares of the company!!
") and not necessarily into the hand of a socialist state.""
Ah, really?? Now, lets imagine all means of production are owned by "workers" (what about farmers, non-workers, children, etc. here??? by the way?) ... and by which mechanism would you think do they make the strategic decisions?? And how would you call this kind of proces?? STATE!
@joaquinveyron Communism worked all over before modern history Communism has never ever been tried anywhere in modern history. Communism is simple. Those who produce a surplus receive it themselves and distribute based on where ever they see fit. This is Democracy To argue democracy in the work place is foolish, or doomed to failure is the same mentality that had Kings saying, "I am the King, you are all rabble, I know what is best" I hope you are young, and therefore ignorant of what you speak.
@Artamentous "Those who produce a surplus receive it themselves "
Ok. So, you mean the investors, the entrepreneurs, tjhe managers? :-)
"Communism worked all over before modern history "
Yes, I can remember in Stone age .... but wait, the chieftain of a group of homo sapiens made the decisions and kept the biggest share of the mammoth when they hunted one.
@joaquinveyron ad 1. Soviet Union - a medieval slavery country which had 10% literacy and less than 5% of total global production transformed into a superpower with more than 90% literacy and 15% of global production in less than 50 years despite the fact it lost probably more than 40 million people due to civil war and foreign invasions and its pre-revolution industrial base was nearly completely destroyed and suffered more material losses than all the Allies in the WWII combined
And what were European countries, the USA, all CAPITALIST countries before the 19th centuries???
"more than 90% literacy "
GREAT SUCCESS!! I I knew soiclaism would prevail!! Now I see why it was worth it to KILL 25 MILLION PEOPLE in the SU alone, install a BRUTAL DICTATORSHIP, a secret police, TERROR by the KGB, and abolish any sort of INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM and ending a NIGHTMARE out of POVERTY and MISERY!!
@joaquinveyron You asked for a single example and I gave it. The economic growth as well as growth in human rights in the USSR let s say between 1922 and 1972 was at least very similar to the growth in the US between 1850 and 1900, maybe better. Both countries suffered from civil war in the period but the USSR has much more troubles - like the worst invasion ever seen in history during 41-45 which forced them to move and rebuild their industrial base totally elsewhere than it was.
Whatever DRUGS you are taking, please take less of it, will you??? The SU was one of the most anti-human countries in the world, where 25 MILLION were MURDERED, people were completely exempt of any basic LIBERTIES.
@joaquinveyron I am not saying that USSR was a benchmark of prosperity and civil rights but it was much better than most capitalist countries. Capitalism produces inequality not just among individuals but between countries. You cannot focus just on the peak of capitalist success but look at the bottom. No socialist country sinked so low until 1989 like many capitalist countries did - take your time and compare statistics of let's say Guatemala and Hungary.
@LodovicoAriosto1 " I am not saying that USSR was a benchmark of prosperity and civil rights "
HAHAHAHAHAH, this is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the CENTURY. It is like saying ... hmm, the Holocaust was not the best example for peace and humanity in history.
Are you fucking crazy?? Or simply dumb as bread`???
@joaquinveyron the overall standard of living was similar in Central America and Eastern Europe in the 19th century. Now you can compare what the USSR influence did to Hungary and what the US influence did to Guatemala. See my point?
25 million people killed in the SU by SU authorities is a nonsense. You cannot count those killed by capitalist Germans, British and French. Yes, there were millions of victims of famines and terror, this is true.
@LodovicoAriosto1 "not abroad like the UK and the US have been doing."
????
And where and when did they do this??
Ah, yes, Korea war, for instance, where communists tried to USURPATE nad EXPLOIT South Korea and install a system of tyrranny, misery and dictatorship.
Thanks to the USA, SOuth Korean enjoy CAPITALISTIC PROSPERITY and FREEDOM unlike the NOrth Koreans who have to live in a COMMUNIST CONCENTRATION CAMP.
@joaquinveyron and if you talk about secret police, it is a known fact that the US government is currently wiretapping hundreds of thousand people, millions are on the list of potential threat to national security and according to the US laws, the gov can arrest and detain in an occupied territory of Guantanamo, for an unlimited period of time, any person on the Earth, incl. US citizens. it is a breach of a single most important principle of democracy.
Jep, and whom are they wiretapping?? Criminals, druglords, mafiosis ... and for good reason! And they cant do this without legal justification. So how do you want to compare this to the KGB dominated system that tortured, interrogated, betrayed, murdered INNOCENT people completely ARBITRARILY and in MILLIONS???
@joaquinveyron ad 2. first YOU tell me how make capitalism work without poverty, terror, dictatorships, famines and inefficiencies.
I don't want your euros. They are going to be just paper to wipe your ass in upcoming years. It would already have been like this without massive money printing. A simple "thank you" is enough :-)
For the next time please stop spreading bullshit without any evidence and learn facts.
@LodovicoAriosto1 "first YOU tell me how make capitalism work without poverty, terror, dictatorships, famines and inefficiencies."
Dimwit, not necessary to epxlain HOW. Just SIMPLY look at the FACTS that the ÒNLY times in human history where men could free himself from poverty, hardships, famines, terror, dictatorships, were when a FREE and CAPITALISTIC society was formed.
@LodovicoAriosto1 Strange, that the poeple ALWAYS FLED or tried to flee from COMMUNIST SHITHOLES to CAPITALISTIC countries, huh?? :-) Well, not really strange, once FACTS are considered: WestGER vs GDR SKorea vs NKorea WestEU vs Eastern bloc USA vs SU China 2010 vs Mao-China HAHAHAHAHAHA Next patient please!!! HK vs Mao-China
@MindFornicator Dude! Again with the "FAGGOT ... SHIT ...COCKSMOKER" comments.
My suggestion: Go to the nearest gay bar and pick up a dude ASAP. You need to excise these homosexual fantasies as quickly as possible or you'll explode from the trapped gay inside of you.
You are right. Thanks to 30 years of CAPITALISTIC REFORMS. China s GDP and wages have increased by the factor of 60!! A middle class of somewhat 200 mio. Chinese was created... while workers earned 0.10 EUR per day in 1970s/1980
You are right. China nowadays is - FORTUNATELY - far away from the Marxist bullshit that crippled the country before 1980!!
@Nihilanthic I dont know what drugs you are taking. Please take simply less of it, will you??
Dipshit, the entrepreneurs are private entrepreneurs who also invest their own money or that of other businessmen in their inventions/techznologies. Thats the backbone of any successful CAPITALISTIC ECONOMY, you complete dimwit!!
What Marx wants is abolish private property /entrepreneurship, you brain amputated monkey!
So you say JP Morgan financed the Bolsheviks, but the Bolsheviks weren't doing his bidding, but the whole reason for this "point" is to prove that the elites subverted communism to their own ends? Which is it? Anyways, this is not so much an example of the inherent failures of communism as it is the perfect example of why businessmen hate competition, why the goal of every capitalist is to gain a monopoly, and provides even further evidence for the evils of capitalism and its global nature.
@roserh6 I never said that the Bolsheviks were, or were not, doing JPMs bidding, nor have I mentioned "inherent failures of communism," only you said those things. There was a financial relationship. What does this mean?
Have I attacked "communism?" No. Have I defended "capitalism?" No.
What I'm saying is that we have to uncover these individuals and are doing. They appear to foment both sides of the capitalist/communist debate. Why?
@roserh6 said "The people must forcefully expropriate the property and power of those who own property and who profit off of workers who sell their labor to work on this property." [rearranged for clarity]
This appears to be the crux of your argument or theory.
Provide concrete examples and cases of where this has happened in the past and your vision of the scenario for this happening in the future, identifying specific persons in both cases.
@wabiquark Primitive accumulation is not a theory. It is an historical account of what happened in Europe leading up to the industrial revolution. Ever heard of the Inclosure Acts? There were a number of them at various times throughout history. Never did I claim case studies to be irrelevant. I just think your particular "case in point", like every piece of "evidence" used to construct your conspiracy theory, is a cherry-picked strawman.
@wabiquark In the Spanish Civil War, anarchists and the POUM (anti-stalinist communists) took over land and workplaces and established many successful egalitarian communes in the province of Catalonia. The Paris Commune in 1871 was a successful, albeit shortlived, seizure by the working class. Cuba, no matter what you may say, despite being cut off from the world by the US, far surpasses every other Latin American country and many European countries.
@roserh6 So what? There have been plenty of egalitarian communes established all over the world without violence. The Farm in Tennessee is a successful commune that's been in existence for several generations and appears to be a permanent community. They didn't expropriate anything from anyone.
@wabiquark I'm not saying that the farmer is actively trying to gain a monopoly, but he would certainly be happy if he woke up one morning and his competition no longer existed.
"There was a financial relationship. What does this mean?"- Why don't you spell it out for me instead of side stepping all the time.
@wabiquark You asked me to give examples of revolutions so I did. What do peaceful egalitarian communes have to do with this conversation at all?
"Maybe because you don't have a vision?..."- You've gone off the deep end now and it seems you never wanted to hold yourself up to the same standards as you do me. You can choose not to understand historical and economic processes, that is your prerogative. This has been like talking to a brick wall. Good day.
@wabiquark Anyways, you keep shifting the burden of proof on me, when it is you who must prove your outlandish conspiracy theory. Sure, the United States and its corporate puppeteers have an interest in building up other countries and exporting capital around the world. It's called imperialism and it's how capitalism works. I suggest you read history books based on peer-reviewed empirical research that is not written by fringe "scholars" who are trying to prove an a priori version of history.
@wabiquark This conversation is not about my vision of a future solution, it is about a basic understanding of the nature of the problem, which you have long abandoned.
The "system" is evil and we must change it? No, there are criminal tyrants in the world who rule by fraud and force and they subvert socialism, capitalism, and any other idealogy or philosophy to their own ends, which is controlling you for power and profit. To pretend that changing the "system" will get rid of these criminals is naive.
@wabiquark You are a perfect example of how conspiracy theories breed apathy. I doubt you have seriously studied Marx's class analysis. You say the left/right paradigm is a smoke-screen, and yet you clearly harbor right-wing ideas about society and human nature, and your complacent attitude makes people like you the wet dream of the right. Stop pretending to have figured it all out just because you watched an Alex Jones film.
@roserh6 Ha, typical Ad hominem attack, devoid of substance. If you disagree with me then produce counter evidence or arguments.
Your post is full of non-verifiable garbage, baseless insults and empty buzz words; the perfect pathetic example of why leftists and marxists get blown off as full of BS.
One's ideology provides value only as a philosophy to drive one's individual actions. Any attempt to institute idealogy by force will ultimately fail. Are you arguing philosophy or politics?
@wabiquark I don't think you understand. See, your original post was devoid of substance. Full of non-verifiable garbage and empty buzz words. Why should I be held to a higher standard simply because I disagree with you? My response, on the other hand, was not Ad hominem. Everything I said was completely relevant, and was based on the objective circumstances of the ideology you presented in your previous posts.
@roserh6 You need more experience discussing and debating IDEAS instead of attacking individuals. Why don't you answer my question?
Here's a tip. Don't use big words like "Ad hominem" until you know the meaning. Each sentence in your post was a false statement about me, with no correlation or refutation of my original statements while accusing me of "apathy", "conspiracy theories", "right wing ideas about society" or "complacency" on my part. This is not only Ad hominem, but false, and rude.
@roserh6 I DO understand. You don't think. You disagree with me. You lack either the mental skills or communication skills, or both, to express how or why you disagree.
I do more to work against these criminals than you ever will. Your marxist mental masturbation means nothing in the real world of politics.
"objective circumstances of the ideology"???? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Get a dictionary, educate yourself.
@wabiquark Yes, the objective circumstances of your ideology. What's the matter, is that over your head? You want to have a serious discussion? It seems to me you came here looking for a fight from the get-go, setting up a straw man and talking about "naive leftists". You think you can just make inane, baseless comments and expect a rational discussion to ensue? You are so high and mighty! You've come here to "educate" the leftists and tell them what "rude" people they are!
@wabiquark Alas, I will humor you, in a nutshell. You refer to "criminals", as in a small group of clever, evil people who cheated to game the system in their favor. This, however, oversimplifies the situation and looks past the systemic realities. The people who rule to world did not get there because they cheated, it is a part of the natural progression of, yes, the class based system of production and accumulation based on the production of commodities and the exploitation of labor.
@roserh6 Fraud and force or wrong. You're talking about a theory, a philosophy, an opinion, of how society could develop. The same elite bloodlines that rule the world have been planning and doing these things since long before the industrial age. I'm talking about documented facts of history. Look at the numerous examples of how tyrants have overtaken so many governments, be they marxist, socialist, communist or capitalist systems to the detriment of the general population.
@wabiquark You are not talking about documented facts of history if you think that the same elite bloodlines have been controlling the world and planning every event since before the industrial age. Tell me, be honest, where did you get this stuff from? Jordan Maxwell? Alex Jones? Peter Joseph?
I am not saying that all capitalists are "criminals" in the legal sense. Their crimes are institutionalized. economic realities.
@roserh6 OK, since the *beginning* of the industrial age, by their own admission. I never said "planning every event," but they've had a hand in fomenting almost every major war since that time. Wall Street financed the Bolsheviks. Why?
I "get this stuff" from hours of my own research. Why don't you debate ideas and facts instead of attacking what you incorrectly imagine me, or my sources, to be?
Since you don't use common definitions, define "capitalist" and "crime."
@wabiquark I AM debating ideas and facts. Your ideas are wrong, and your facts are disputable. To say that the Bolsheviks were doing the bidding of Wall Street bankers is nonsense and has its roots in antisemitic conspiracy theories which tie Jewish bankers to a plot for world domination. Yes Lenin did enter into a relationship with oilman Armand Hammer who had Wall Street ties, but not until after 1917.
@roserh6 "History is a mystery," as a great history professor once taught me. I said "financed", not "doing the bidding." Olof Aschberg was the conduit through which JP Morgan loaned 50 million dollars to the Bolsheviks in 1916. This is well documented and cross referenced by Antony C. Sutton in his book, "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution." Neither I nor Sutton have mentioned this as a "Jewish plot." In fact he includes an appendix debunking this notion.
@wabiquark The Bolshevik consolidation of power and bureaucratic degeneration of the revolution is a whole other subject to be discussed and has little relevancy.
You are the one who called them criminals not me. A capitalist is somebody who who owns property and makes profit off of workers who sell their labor to work on his property (i.e. factories, farms, mines, corporations). A criminal is somebody who does something that is not sanctioned by the dominant system.
@roserh6 The Bolshevik topic IS absolutely relevant. In my first posts on this video I said that "criminal tyrants [...] subvert socialism, capitalism, and any other ideology or philosophy to their own ends," and this appears to be a perfect example. The "Wall Street Bankers" in this case constituting the criminal tyrants. The Bolshevik revolution's ideology being what they subverted.
@wabiquark "Primitive accumulation" is a term used to describe the historical process whereby over hundreds of years, those with power who were sanctioned by the government and the military, "forcefully transfered" agricultural commons and resources into their own private hands, and created the vastly unequal preconditions for the development of the capitalist system.
@roserh6 said "primitive accumulation [...]" blah blah blah .... Since you can't dazzle with brilliance, you just baffle with bullshit theories. You don't provide any examples and you claim case studies are irrelevant.
@wabiquark Your nominal "right to private property" means nothing when 2% of the population own 80% of the wealth. Your "natural rights" and "individual liberties" amount to nothing in the real world where you must eat, have a roof over your head and provide for your family to survive. Freedom is the "freedom to", not the "freedom from" that classical liberalism loves to go on about.
@roserh6 I never said "right to private property," wealth does not necessarily equal property, and you know nothing of how I have provided for my family for a generation.
I want freedom from people like you who advocate a violent revolution to install a centralized dictatorial government which has no regard for natural rights and individual liberties, and would force me to pay for people like you (not my family), while establishing the infrastructure for the elites to turn us all into slaves.
@wabiquark You say that changing the system won't "get rid of these criminals". You seem to have a very fatalistic understanding of society and human nature. But humans are not irreparably flawed like you assume. We are simply products of the material world which surrounds us. The "objective circumstances of your ideology" are that you no longer believe in social change, you become apathetic, "a tool of the elites".
@roserh6 You put words in my mouth and falsely accuse me. I do not assume that "humans are irreparably flawed." I never said that the people of the planet will never eliminate these thieves, crooks and liars. I said that switching political or social systems will not get rid of the criminals. They don't magically go away unless specific individuals are apprehended and charged for their specific crimes. How does marxism or socialism or communism deal with this problem? Seemingly doesn't.
@wabiquark You're right, the "criminals" don't magically go away. Their property and power have to be forcefully expropriated by the people. You say "fraud and force are wrong", but at the same time you say that they have to be "apprehended and charged for their crimes". Isn't that coercion? In a way, isn't that forcing your ideas on other people?
@roserh6 To "expropriate" means to forcefully transfer another's property to yourself. True legal action is not "expropriation" or "coercion." Legal action counters the coercion of criminals. The common law precedes the industrial age, the Constitution for the united States, and the Magna Carta and is in effect today. These are not my ideas, but the body of law protecting the natural rights of man for centuries. "Two wrongs don't make a right."
@wabiquark You said, "To 'expropriate' means to forcefully transfer another's property to yourself."- This is exactly what capitalists do on a daily basis when they exploit the labor power of their workers and claim private property in the wealth and resources that are produced and used by the whole people.
@wabiquark I believe your question was whether I am arguing philosophy or politics? I am arguing both. The point of philosophy is to change the world right? What is your definition of politics? In the current system, and I think we both agree on this, politics is just a charade put on by the major parties which each represent the ruling class. You call them "criminals". I call them "capitalists".
@roserh6 The point of philosophy is questioning and understanding. It doesn't answer objective questions. Its usefulness is the effect on the individual, and can only change the world via individual reflection. Philosophy cannot (successfully) be forced upon a population. Politics boils down to who controls you and how much control you give them or they take by force or fraud. You can argue both, but they are not the same.
Are you saying that all capitalists are criminals? Please explain.
This whole left/right paradigm is just a smoke-screen to keep everyone distracted from what the CRIMINALS are doing. The naive leftists believe that class struggle is EVERYTHING and that by instituting "marxism" or "socialism" somehow the injustices of society will disappear. Also we see leftists' nasty post after ridiculous post on accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being "anti-semite" or "racist" or worse.
@jerthemessiah he was a highly educated propagandist, who wanted to get rid of the middle class so the real elites and his kind; bankers, politicians and army officers can call the shot unhindered.
Order out of chaos, classic problem reaction solution....
@jystyle Why are there still so many anti-Semites on youtube? Oh right... because none of you have jobs and vent your economic resentments in childish conspiracy theories.
@1ivingHe11 What are you on crack? i never mentioned Jews!!!!!
I said socialism and communism is a form of complete totalitarian dictatorship!! Where is it anti Semitic? I have Chinese noble heritage, when communist came and confiscated all our lands and possessions it was not fun for my grand father!!
I am pretty sure there were no Jews in communist China.
@nrgetick The US fought against dictators and communism as well in other wars like the Vietnam war, although they obviously committed war crimes, without no doubt.
As well it is very interesting that you never heard NO OUTCRY whatsover when communist countries
- occupied and/or started war with other countries
- implemented a terror-based system in ALL communist countries
- sent tanks whenever people stood up for FREEDOM in communist countries
As the initial investor and organizers, there's nothing wrong with capitalist(s) reaping profits to return on initial investment and reinvestment towards efficiency and growth. The problems come when a "class" of capitalists uses those profits to create markets for the sole purpose of profit. Jobs, in these cases are merely a single step, in a wealth creation cycle. The only way, I can see to disrupt this process is to value justice and dignity over profit.
The Profit system is on its knees ,the working class as usual are dragged in poverty,misery,exploitation and war. The nomadic ramaging of profit led by Finance Capital is the organised fraud and usurpation for a few taken care by capitalist legal sytem, the historic falling rate of profit predictated by Karl Marx is the nemesis, the class consiousness of the world working class the means to transcend this tyrannical system for a world of cooperation for our common needs and well being
SEE: BILL ABRAMS part 2. AMERICANIZED LTV is a fact. Destroyed by the central banking system . Because slavery and control is so important to the world banking system.
Does anyone else find it suspicious that marx never had a shred of evidence backing up his crazy ideas? For instance, by what specific mechanism is socialism supposed to transform into communism? No answer? It's magical! Have blind faith! Next, dialectical materialism: where is there even a single shred of evidence that this is a correct representation of reality? There isn't any evidence? It must be magically true because marx said so! Have blind faith! Wait, is communism really a religion?
Every original contribution that Marx made to our understanding of capitalism is demonstrably false: the working class does NOT become increasingly immiserated; the class structure does NOT become increasingly polarised; NO society has evolved from feudalism through capitalism to communism; the iron law of wages is fallacious; the State does NOT wither away when capitalism is abolished. Marx will continue to be neglected by economists because he was wrong in every important respect.
@SuperGuitarman69 I'll argue according to logic, not according to pedetermined, unscientific bias. One of the core values of Marxism is the deep trust in the scientific method, and if this were to prove Dialectical materialism wrong, then Marxism would die, it's only advocates the blind and the stupid. Typical Capitalist, you judge an economic system by how much capital it generates, not how it benefits human beings. Go to the third world and tell them about how successful your Capitalism is.
Eh, the dialectic approach is overrated. c.f. Hardt and Negri or Deleuze, the world is more complicated than hegelian idealism tries to render it. Binaries have always been naive, easy-to-digest simplifications of complex notions.
hard to do when i only have 490 characters to use :P The dialectic approach tries to separate the world into two opposing camps. Problem is, the world isnt that simple; especially in late capitalism. for instance, one way the elite short circuited such an approach in american colonialism was to give poor whites a position of power over black slaves as overseers. This switched the struggle from poor against rich to whites against blacks, and made it difficult to wage revolution.
@frigidfruit I think the problem here is that you have over-simplified the dialectical approach. Two concepts are born out of two before it, and thus so for an extended period of time, thus, it's not just a case of "two rigid" concepts.
@frigidfruit I think the problem here is that you have over-simplified the dialectical approach. Two concepts are born out of two before it, and thus so for an extended period of time, thus, it's not just a case of "two rigid" concepts.
@SuperGuitarman69 In terms of social solidarity and community spirit, and that crime figures and homelessnes were lower, East Germany. In terms of the shallow pursuit of wealth even if it is at the cost of others, West Germany. It is also worth stating that you're attacking a straw-man, I never said I advocated the variation of Socialism in East Germany. How do you know what my ideologies are? As far as I'm aware I've only told you I'm left wing.
@rimfa123 You are left wing. I used to be left wing. I know the talking points and the comebacks. I changed my views in college logically by studying econmics (my major) the left wing ideology is about agenda. Its a flawed look at the world in terms of gaining power. Once I had studied world economics communism. socialism, capitalism in all forms from Mises to Marx I came to the realization that Ludwig von Mises had it correct. history has proven this. East and West germany is only one of 100's
@SuperGuitarman69 You can't have been a particularly devoted "left winger" if you assume that everyone on the left has the same beliefs withr egard to economics and the power of the state. There is nothing left wing about prioritising the economic system that brings the most wealth. If you think you were left wing and that moved you away, think again! If you give me an example of a country that didn't advocate "red fascism", e.g. Stalinism or Maoism that is a complete failure, or at least crap..
@SuperGuitarman69 (cont.) then I'll reconsider, if you actually look at some countries, e.g. mine, (the UK) We are operating on the Marxist concept of Social Democracy, free health care, wellfare etc. And without boasting, our GDP isn't horrendous, true, it's been hit by the crisis, but arguably no more so than any other country. I would be interested to know when you were left wing, what your particualar ideology was, just wondering... I'm a Marxist-Leninist, as well as a hater of Stalinism.
@rimfa123 I became a Conservative/Libertarian a long time ago after I seen Reagans policies change the climate in this country. I hated Reagan as a young person, using the usual jargon that came along with it that I was merely regurgitating from what lies was being pumped into me. Reagan opened up free markets to something we hadn't had in forever in this country. I seen my family able to work and start businesses and put people to work under that climate part 1
@rimfa123 I seen people who were reliant on government (my cousins) get great jobs from factories that were opening in the area. They bought houses and had boats and wonderful lives. Then I seen when Clinton got in not but 2 years later the unions that my cousins were forced to be in with full support of the Democratic party force unrealistic demands on the companies forcing layoffs and job loss. The only thing saving Clinton was the Tech boom. But my cousins were skilled labor not in tech P2
@rimfa123 They were in another industry. My cousins were also Democrats as most of my family. I seen the destruction of what Reagan had work so hard to build. I changed then. I realized what had transpired and I had to eat crow on my own beliefs. So, since I've seen the destruction of my country by the left and I fight it. I believe in low taxes and the private sector. Government poor. People working and rich. I know this first hand. So you can't argue me into listening to the left. I was left
@SuperGuitarman69 I'd hardly call being a "Democrat" in America left wing. And the actions of the Democrats in America are hardly representative of the left.
@rimfa123 Yes the left wing in this country is socialist. They want European style economics. It goes against the constitution completely. Controlling business is their mandate. Nanny state laws to control what we can say eat or drink cause "they" know whats best for us. Conservatives/Libertarians are constitutionalists. They believe in freedom and liberty. If you show me Fascism, Socialism, Communism you will enslavement (unconstitutional). Show me a free country you'll see capitalism.
@SuperGuitarman69 Oh Christ, here is the hillbilly, religious, gun-nut coming out in you. Another paranoid right winger, why didn't you just tell me before, I could have saved my time. If there is one thing I've learnt, that is, not to waste time arguing with people like you. Really educated arn't you, reverting to using cliched rhetoric and scare tactics, with a healthy mix of sickly-sweet flag worshiping. The only thing worse than an enslaved nation, like America, is the fact that you think...
@SuperGuitarman69 That you're free. You don't believe in freeedom and liberty, you beleive in a 300 year old document constructed by racists, slave owners and homophobes. In Socialism the PEOPLE control the business, not the government. Who paid for you supposed education? Tell them to get a refund. If your mind wasn't so warped then you'd understand the BASIC principles of the left. How ignorant are you that you thought because you supported a centre political party then you were once left wing
@rimfa123 In some branches of socialism yes they people can own businesses. But the government has control over ownership rights. Perhaps you don't understand socialism.You're comments about our founders being slave owners and racists shows me you are clueless. The founders could not do away with slavery right away because they couldn't. They were ALL against slavery. Socialism is a system designed to keep people in one income bracket. No riches, no poor. Discourages growth or innovation. Part 1
@SuperGuitarman69 Typical right wing bigot, trying to turn my own criticisms against me, YOUR (not you're) oh educated one, defence slavery is hideous, do you know who the slaves are now? I'll give you a clue, 50% of people on Earth live on less than $2 dollars a day. That's ok though, they work their arses off in factories and have nothing, so you can sit on your backside eating yourself too death playing a musical instrument. Don't lecture me on Socialism you hypocrite.
@SuperGuitarman69 (cont.) then I'll reconsider, if you actually look at some countries, e.g. mine, (the UK) We are operating on the Marxist concept of Social Democracy, free health care, wellfare etc. And without boasting, our GDP isn't horrendous, true, it's been hit by the crisis, but arguably no more so than any other country. I would be interested to know when you were left wing, what your particualar ideology was, just wondering... I'm a Marxist-Leninist, as well as a hater of Stalinism.
@rimfa123 You are unbelievable. America at least under the way it was a few years ago is the beacon of freedom. I play guitar for a living and I'm rich. WooHoo liberty! I own 3 cars and a 5 bedroom house. My employees work in the music industry and make more than you. They followed their dreams too. America is a land where your life is whatever you want to make it. Name 1 rich Canadian or European who isn't elite? You are sold a bill of goods. Propoganda!
@SuperGuitarman69 I'm a student, of course your little employee's make more than me, why does that make them any better than me in any way? I would hardly call you rich to the extent that you're worthy of being compared to bourgeoisie, you, at best, are middle class. Why on earth would your warped little head want me to defend Capitalism in Europe? But, since you are such an ignorant twat, Google Allen Sugar, people like him help propogate the flase conciousness Capitalism injects.
@rimfa123 You are a student? How apropo. You know nothing but what you are told. So let me explain things to you. 1st of all you are talking to someone who holds 2 degrees. One in Comp sci the other in Economics (Mises) emphasis. I have studied all theories unbiasdly for over 6 years in college. Had extensive examination of all historical and political ramifications from each of there implementations. In defense to me you are wrong. Americans no matter their economic statis are in the top7% P1
@SuperGuitarman69 Beacon of freedom? ha, your entire country is a laughing stock! 62% of you don't even accept evolution! Even in the crooked petty bourgeos area I live in, everyone can't stand America, you are satistically the most hated country in the world. You, and your appaling little theories are pathetic, why don't you get of your salad dodging arse, and go and preach Capitalism to the billions of people living on the brink of death so you can live comfortably, you're a zombie.
@rimfa123 So, let me tell you what America is all about. In this country in order to have true freedom and liberty the society must be able to thrive in the private sector. I realize this is a foreign concept to you because this isn't anything you know. In this country it is to be ran by limited government. This country is about people pursuing THEIR OWN INTERESTS. Those that would better their lives and those they love. That means that the government should be limited in spending. Part 3 of 4
@SuperGuitarman69 Why are you insulting my Capitalist sleezey government? You're attacking a straw man, I'm hardly a fan of a bunch of conservative bigots now am I?
I think I'll spend 5 hours painting a water color and put it up for sale at the local coffee shop and then I'll trade my "5 hour Labor Voucher" for a 5 hour Mechanic Bill for fixing my transmission, or maybe a 5 hour brain surgery for a sick child.
Hell, 5 hours of LABOR is worth 5 hours of LABOR, isn't it??
The "Labor Theory of Value" wouldn't pass muster in an Econ 101 class at the local community college...
randy95023 1 month ago
@randy95023 I recommend you actually read Marx's own explanation in Capital Vol. 1, Ch. 1. Marx says that the value of a commodity is the amount of "socially necessary labor" expended to produce it. "Socially Necessary Labor" means the amount of labor necessary to produce a given amount of a commodity based on the average conditions of production, technology and skill in a given country at a given period of time. He goes to length to argue against the caricature you make it out to be
tedrovsky 1 month ago
@tedrovsky I read Marx in College 35 years ago, reread it in my 30's and reread it again in my late 40's. I agree with most of Marxian POV (Bourgeois exploiting the Proletariat, etc.). That said; A Socialist Economy has no way to find REAL prices. Soviet Union used to watch Western business journals to establish at least 'realistic' prices and insert them into their economy. No "free market", NO realistic prices. To find REAL prices you must turn to your enemies, "The Austrians"...
randy95023 1 month ago
@MrBigEnchilada Profits, Surplus goods are always produced, Marxian economics or socialists just say that the people who produce(!) the goods, should control what, how, to whom and when to produce them, and not some board members or bosses.
noprofitmaximierung 2 months ago
marx LTV is actually more correct than smith/ricardo/locke's LTV, but it is still not very accurate. I like marx's division of labor and the idea of alienation but i dont think a surplus value is necessarily exploitation and profit is not a bad idea.
MrBigEnchilada 3 months ago
This is a slight unmeritable man, meet to be sent on errands: And, though others lay labours on this man, to ease ourselves of divers slanderous loads, he shall but bear them as the ass bears gold, to groan and sweat under the business, either led or driven, as they point him the way; and having brought their treasure where they will, then take they down his load and turn him off, like to the empty ass, to shake his ears and graze in commons.
FireEyedMaidOfWar 4 months ago
Meritocracy is a myth?! So it doesn't exist?!! You better check that shit. "The poorest people are the one's who work the hardest and receive the least in return"?! Have you even seen a damn Income Statement your entire life?! These workers get paid every single month even if businessowners earn nothing! "They will never escape their suffering"?! Wow... well, if it were not for these loony risk-taking "employers" they would have nothing!!
61984sd 5 months ago
@61984sd What you say applies to the small business owner but not to the big corporations, where CEOs can earn bonuses and then demand bailouts from the government. You can say that we should not allow bailouts of the big corporations, but it doesn't matter what you think because those corporations own the government, not you. Small businesses exist at the will of the big ones. They are allowed to take the risks and are then either bought up or destroyed when their risks pay off.
TheAmazingMorse 4 months ago
Hell yeah. I guess Marx never heard of upward mobility (makes sense because he never had to work being a 'bourgeois' himself). What an idiot! People don't pay other people "just enough so the latter can survive"! People pay other people based on merit and productivity! I.e, good employees get promoted.
61984sd 5 months ago
@61984sd The myth of meritocracy is a widely held belief but does not reflect the reality of the world in which we reside. The poorest people are the one's who work the hardest & receive the least in return. No matter how hard they work, they will never escape their suffering....and their hard work will continue to make their employers richer & richer while they stay poor.
SpectacleofDebord 5 months ago
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TheServiceWeb 5 months ago
The labor theory of value is straight nonsense. I dont see how any one with common sense can subscribe to it. Maybe in the 1800's. I'm reading Marx's Capital right now. I thought I'd give it a chance. It is turning out to be far more incorrect than I ever thought possible. It is just poor economic theory plain and simple. The law of marginal utility is a far better explanation of value. Anyone with any business sense can see this as well as anyone with basic economic knowledge.
jawade42 6 months ago
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@gaZ125555
Try to read first, I wrote "I would have been the first tio be put into a gulag f" and not I would throw them into a gulag.
joaquinveyron 6 months ago
@gaZ125555
"You seem just the kind of guy I'd like to run into in the real world"
No worries, dipshit. I would have been the first tio be put into a gulag for asking how commies would have wanted to realize all this communistical NONSENSE :-)
joaquinveyron 6 months ago
@gaZ125555
Dipshit, I was waiting for such an idiotic and false comment. First, Lenin himself introduced terror and a dictatorship to Russia, simply out of knowing that communism is not possible in FFREEDOM. When freedom exists, you will have as a result, what communist hate the most: INEQUALITY, simply because men are NOT EQUAL, but some are more successful than others. As simple as that ...
And dipshit, there is not state/country that can be "stateless".
joaquinveyron 6 months ago
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My comments on another Marxist vid pending approval lol. what are they scared of ha . first time i have come across this kinda censorship on you tube , doesnt fkin surprise me though ☭ ☭
chestikov2011 6 months ago
My comments on another Marxist vid pending approval lol. what are they scared of ha . first time i have come across this kinda censorship on you tube , doesnt fkin surprise me though
chestikov2011 6 months ago
Marx vive em suas idéias.
Armando1735 8 months ago
@Armando1735 My HONEST THANKS go to our American partners and friends. Without them Western Europe probably would have become the SAME COMMUNISTIC SHOTHOLE that the Eastern bloc was. If someone disagrees, to hell with him. He or she should visit N KOrea, in which South Korea lalso would have turned into, if the US hadnt helped them. Thus, SKorean live in PROSPERITY and FREEDOM, while their NKorean counterparts live in a COMMUNIST CONCENTRATION CAMP.
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
Marx is such an idiot.
qwertypoiu4321 8 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321
e sua mãe é uma puta, seu idiota.
Armando1735 8 months ago
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@Armando1735 Dipshit, in Maoism the following communist goals,are persued such as:
- abolition of private property/entrepreneurship
- abolition of a free market system
- planned economy/ collectivization
- "classless society"
It is clear that you can realize these goals, by abolishing freedom of the individual. Communism is only thinkable as a DICTATORSHIP.
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
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@qwertypoiu4321 "MARX WAS THAT KIND OF GENIUS WITH THE INTELLECTUAL POWER ABLE TO CREATE WEALTH FOR ALL"
Hahahahahahahahahhaha, good one, good one .. only that Marxist ideas and policies turn every country into a ROTTEN SHITHOLE, where people suffered from HUNGER; POVERTY and LACK of BASIC SUPPLIES.
But, I guess, you were joking, right??
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
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@qwertypoiu4321
"Marx is such an idiot."
Couldn t agree more with you on that.
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
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Can you get me lushfmlk.info
treenzee 9 months ago
If there was no profit who would start the business in the first place? As for co ops, they are legal why does everyone not start one? The key is good governance and education for all, low taxes and a love of God.
warriorprince1010 9 months ago
@warriorprince1010
but didnt Marx say that " religion was the opiate of the masses " ?
hieronomy 8 months ago
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@hieronomy "EVERYTHING is free! So pratically its better "
Ah, really??? And who do you think will produce these things that are then free??? And why would people do so????
Let me show you what rotten COMMUNISTIC SHITHOLE communism will turn into and what "free products" you can ... buy ... (after a 12 years waiting list :-) )
watch?v=Cu8I4tKkuZ4
or here:
watch?v=n1VmF14xJ2c
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
@warriorprince1010 "south korea suffer from injustice, unemployment, "
You brainless leftish, monkey, South Koreans make 30 Times more than their communist counterparth in NK!! 4 Millions of NKoreans starved to death, you dipshit.
"nortk korea is called "juche""
Yeah, u dipshit, and juche includes>
- abolition of private equity&free market
- collectivization and planned economy
- "classless society"
... dipshit, this is all your brainless Marxist monkeys are about.
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
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@joaquinveyron "south korea suffer from injustice, unemployment, "...show me where I said the above? North Korea suffers repression due to socialist state slavery. South korea has a capitalist model. Hence why they are doing fine.
warriorprince1010 7 months ago
That was sick as hell. Loved all the subtle and exaggerated combination of body movement and speech mannerisms. I think it really conveys the eccentricity of marxs' personality and brilliance of mind.
nrgetick 11 months ago
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@nrgetick "Allende HELPED and saved the economy in 3 years! "
Dipshit, look at the FACTS!!!
Allendes socialistic polices only led to the increase of prices of basic goods that were then only available at the black markets, high inflation (600 %), sky high debts which go hand in hand with inflation if you start printing money yourself, high unemployment, the decrease of the real income by somewhat 40 %. It is a school book example of what s going wrong when socialists are in power.
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
why has Marx got an American accent? good stuff though :)
eraserhead321 11 months ago
jews always thinking in terms of money
sprucepantherkmt 11 months ago
Communism, feudal systems, socialism, monarchy, fascism...centralization of power. Capitalism...people power.
warriorprince1010 1 year ago
@warriorprince1010
If you'd bother actually reading what socialism is about (power into the hands of workers, and only workers...) or communism (the hands of the people, and specifically that communism only exists with no government) you'd look like less of an idiot ♥
Nihilanthic 1 year ago 11
@Nihilanthic You look like an idiot. As of today there are NO so called socialists in the EU or USA who advocate no state and no government ownership of businesses. They want ownership for the governing few, little choice, poverty for the masses and greed for the governing few and their friends.. THAT is socialism. Who would start a business if you never made any profits or the decisions yourself? We would never have any businesses in the first place.
warriorprince1010 1 year ago
@warriorprince1010
No matter how many times you say it you're not correct. It's still a lie. You are wrong.
Anyone can google or look up socialism in a litany of other scholarly sources and find out what it's actually about, told by the people who are actually socialists. Capitalists such as yourself have as much business talking about socialism as PETA does giving pot roast recipes.
Socialism stands for workers, not the owners or the government. Read history and get over yourself.
Nihilanthic 1 year ago 2
@Nihilanthic "told by the people who are actually socialists."...The worst people to explain socialism. Who owns all businesses in Cuba? Castro does and thats why he is worth $1.4 billion.
Socialism is about greed and excess of the governing few. Crushing dreams and freedom while doing it.
warriorprince1010 1 year ago
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bapyou 1 year ago
@warriorprince1010 "Who owns all businesses in Cuba? Castro does"
That's a lie told by worthless capitalist scumfucks who spread propaganda about the Cuban revolution because they can't stand it that a model for a different kind of society exists & has existed for the past 60 years just 90 miles away from the present-day center of world greed.
The dictator Fulgencio Batista took 400 million dollars from the Cuban National Bank when he fled Cuba. Capitalists are scum. Like you.
bapyou 1 year ago
@bapyou Ignorant rude socialist evil. Castro has indeed stolen billions and what people did before excuses nothing, Castro is clearly worse as he has stolen even more, and peoples dreams.
warriorprince1010 1 year ago
@warriorprince1010 "Castro has indeed stolen billions" Source this statement, you brainwashed dumb fuck.
"what people did before excuses nothing"
The torture & killings visited upon the Cuban people by the US-supported dictator Fulgenico Batista was nothing?
People starving for 6 months out of the year as American plantation owners reaped huge profits from sugar is nothing.
I expect nothing less from scum like you. Capitalism knows the price of everything & the value of nothing.
bapyou 1 year ago 2
@bapyou So Cuba had one corrupt leader followed by another. I feel for the good people of Cuba. They deserve better than the greed and excess of socialistic leaders.
warriorprince1010 1 year ago
@warriorprince1010 As expected: You are unable to provide a source for your statement that "Castro has indeed stolen billions."
___
"So Cuba had one corrupt leader followed by another. [Cubans] deserve better than the greed and excess of socialistic leaders."
In fact it is captalists who are excessively greedy. The right-wing Cubans in Miami want nothing more than to reestablish the good-old days of greedy pre-Castro Cuban capitalism. Considering their situation, Cubans live pretty well.
bapyou 1 year ago
@bapyou Castro has indeed been stealing billions from the hard working people of Cuba while keeping them down with socialists dogma. The people who leave Cuba want to follow their dreams and I wish them the best.
warriorprince1010 1 year ago
@warriorprince1010 "Castro has indeed been stealing billions from the hard working people of Cuba"
Source, please.
bapyou 1 year ago
@bapyou Isn't it funny how all these right wing loons just spout nonsense, refuse to back up their claims, and then when cornered, spew forth venomous hatred that reveals their inner selves?
thewideninggyre 1 year ago 4
@thewideninggyre "Isn't it funny how all these right wing loons . . . refuse to back up their claims"
Especially since the true thieves of Cuban wealth was Fulgencio Batista and his band of thugs. You may know this already: When Batista fled Cuba for the Dominican Republic he and his henchmen relieved the Cuban treasury of about $400 million U.S.
What a wonderful little dictator that Fulgencio was. Dinero o muerte!
bapyou 1 year ago
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@thewideninggyre "Marxism is the only economic system .... with morality in mind"
Really?? ;.-) :-)
This is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.
More even if you consider the RESULTS of such a system: Marxism ALWAYS led to FAMINES; POVERTY; DICTATORSHIPS, TERROR, UN-FREEDOM.
You must be KIDDING!! :-)
joaquinveyron 2 months ago
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""means of production into the hands of the workers"
You want to have a saying in the company you work for??? Buy yourself shares of the company!!
") and not necessarily into the hand of a socialist state.""
Ah, really?? Now, lets imagine all means of production are owned by "workers" (what about farmers, non-workers, children, etc. here??? by the way?) ... and by which mechanism would you think do they make the strategic decisions?? And how would you call this kind of proces?? STATE!
joaquinveyron 2 months ago
" then when cornered, spew forth venomous "
Hahahahhaah, when did this happen??
Ok, let us see your "intellectual capabilities" on those questions:
1) Name just ONE example where communism was SUCCESSFUL
2) Explain how communism can be realised WITHOUT resulting in a NIGHTMARE of POVERTY, TERROR, DICTATORSHIPS, FAMINES, IN-EFFICIENCIES.
I am ready to pay you 100,000 of my CAPITALISTIC EUROS, if you can :-)
joaquinveyron 2 months ago
@joaquinveyron Communism worked all over before modern history Communism has never ever been tried anywhere in modern history. Communism is simple. Those who produce a surplus receive it themselves and distribute based on where ever they see fit. This is Democracy To argue democracy in the work place is foolish, or doomed to failure is the same mentality that had Kings saying, "I am the King, you are all rabble, I know what is best" I hope you are young, and therefore ignorant of what you speak.
Artamentous 2 months ago
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@Artamentous "Those who produce a surplus receive it themselves "
Ok. So, you mean the investors, the entrepreneurs, tjhe managers? :-)
"Communism worked all over before modern history "
Yes, I can remember in Stone age .... but wait, the chieftain of a group of homo sapiens made the decisions and kept the biggest share of the mammoth when they hunted one.
joaquinveyron 2 months ago
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@Artamentous ""Communism worked all over before modern history "
Hahahhaha .... just name ONE!!! :-) :-)
joaquinveyron 2 months ago
@joaquinveyron ad 1. Soviet Union - a medieval slavery country which had 10% literacy and less than 5% of total global production transformed into a superpower with more than 90% literacy and 15% of global production in less than 50 years despite the fact it lost probably more than 40 million people due to civil war and foreign invasions and its pre-revolution industrial base was nearly completely destroyed and suffered more material losses than all the Allies in the WWII combined
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
@LodovicoAriosto1 " SU - a medieval slavery country "
Ah, really, dimwit??
And what were European countries, the USA, all CAPITALIST countries before the 19th centuries???
"more than 90% literacy "
GREAT SUCCESS!! I I knew soiclaism would prevail!! Now I see why it was worth it to KILL 25 MILLION PEOPLE in the SU alone, install a BRUTAL DICTATORSHIP, a secret police, TERROR by the KGB, and abolish any sort of INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM and ending a NIGHTMARE out of POVERTY and MISERY!!
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@joaquinveyron You asked for a single example and I gave it. The economic growth as well as growth in human rights in the USSR let s say between 1922 and 1972 was at least very similar to the growth in the US between 1850 and 1900, maybe better. Both countries suffered from civil war in the period but the USSR has much more troubles - like the worst invasion ever seen in history during 41-45 which forced them to move and rebuild their industrial base totally elsewhere than it was.
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 "in human rights in the USSR "
?????
Whatever DRUGS you are taking, please take less of it, will you??? The SU was one of the most anti-human countries in the world, where 25 MILLION were MURDERED, people were completely exempt of any basic LIBERTIES.
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@joaquinveyron I am not saying that USSR was a benchmark of prosperity and civil rights but it was much better than most capitalist countries. Capitalism produces inequality not just among individuals but between countries. You cannot focus just on the peak of capitalist success but look at the bottom. No socialist country sinked so low until 1989 like many capitalist countries did - take your time and compare statistics of let's say Guatemala and Hungary.
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 " I am not saying that USSR was a benchmark of prosperity and civil rights "
HAHAHAHAHAH, this is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the CENTURY. It is like saying ... hmm, the Holocaust was not the best example for peace and humanity in history.
Are you fucking crazy?? Or simply dumb as bread`???
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@joaquinveyron the overall standard of living was similar in Central America and Eastern Europe in the 19th century. Now you can compare what the USSR influence did to Hungary and what the US influence did to Guatemala. See my point?
25 million people killed in the SU by SU authorities is a nonsense. You cannot count those killed by capitalist Germans, British and French. Yes, there were millions of victims of famines and terror, this is true.
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 "You cannot count those killed by capitalist Germans, British and French"
I did not count these figures. I am just referring to people MURDERED by communists, dimwit.
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@joaquinveyron But at least they killed millions at home, not abroad like the UK and the US have been doing.
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 "not abroad like the UK and the US have been doing."
????
And where and when did they do this??
Ah, yes, Korea war, for instance, where communists tried to USURPATE nad EXPLOIT South Korea and install a system of tyrranny, misery and dictatorship.
Thanks to the USA, SOuth Korean enjoy CAPITALISTIC PROSPERITY and FREEDOM unlike the NOrth Koreans who have to live in a COMMUNIST CONCENTRATION CAMP.
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@joaquinveyron and if you talk about secret police, it is a known fact that the US government is currently wiretapping hundreds of thousand people, millions are on the list of potential threat to national security and according to the US laws, the gov can arrest and detain in an occupied territory of Guantanamo, for an unlimited period of time, any person on the Earth, incl. US citizens. it is a breach of a single most important principle of democracy.
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 "US government is currently wiretapping "
Jep, and whom are they wiretapping?? Criminals, druglords, mafiosis ... and for good reason! And they cant do this without legal justification. So how do you want to compare this to the KGB dominated system that tortured, interrogated, betrayed, murdered INNOCENT people completely ARBITRARILY and in MILLIONS???
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@joaquinveyron ad 2. first YOU tell me how make capitalism work without poverty, terror, dictatorships, famines and inefficiencies.
I don't want your euros. They are going to be just paper to wipe your ass in upcoming years. It would already have been like this without massive money printing. A simple "thank you" is enough :-)
For the next time please stop spreading bullshit without any evidence and learn facts.
LodovicoAriosto1 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 "first YOU tell me how make capitalism work without poverty, terror, dictatorships, famines and inefficiencies."
Dimwit, not necessary to epxlain HOW. Just SIMPLY look at the FACTS that the ÒNLY times in human history where men could free himself from poverty, hardships, famines, terror, dictatorships, were when a FREE and CAPITALISTIC society was formed.
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
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joaquinveyron 1 month ago
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@LodovicoAriosto1 " then when cornered, spew forth venomous "
Hahahahhaah, when did this happen??
Ok, let us see your "intellectual capabilities" on those questions:
1) Name just ONE example where communism was SUCCESSFUL
2) Explain how communism can be realised WITHOUT resulting in a NIGHTMARE of POVERTY, TERROR, DICTATORSHIPS, FAMINES, IN-EFFICIENCIES.
I am ready to pay you 100,000 of my CAPITALISTIC EUROS, if you can :-)
joaquinveyron 1 month ago
@bapyou "As expected: You are unable to provide a source for your statement that "Castro has indeed stolen billions.""
Ask the Cuban people, STUPID, FATHER SUCKER!!!
MindFornicator 1 year ago
@bapyou, YOU SURE GET AROUND, FAGGOT!
HOW BOUT YOU TRY TALKING SHIT TO MY FACE, COCKSMOKER!
MindFornicator 1 year ago
@MindFornicator Dude! Again with the "FAGGOT ... SHIT ...COCKSMOKER" comments.
My suggestion: Go to the nearest gay bar and pick up a dude ASAP. You need to excise these homosexual fantasies as quickly as possible or you'll explode from the trapped gay inside of you.
All the best! Gay pride!
bapyou 1 year ago
@bapyou Quit being a COCKSMOKING, SHIT EATING, FAGGOT THEN, DUMBASS!!!
MindFornicator 1 year ago
@Nihilanthic
...and then a heart put at last ^^. Hahaha <3.
Counterreactionary 10 months ago
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@Counterreactionary "The PRC isnt even close to Marxism. I"
You are right. Thanks to 30 years of CAPITALISTIC REFORMS. China s GDP and wages have increased by the factor of 60!! A middle class of somewhat 200 mio. Chinese was created... while workers earned 0.10 EUR per day in 1970s/1980
You are right. China nowadays is - FORTUNATELY - far away from the Marxist bullshit that crippled the country before 1980!!
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
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@Nihilanthic Explain the world, how communism
1) is possible in FREEDOM WITHOUT FORCE and VIOLENCE
2) shall lead/create PROSPERITY and FREEDOM just as capiatlism does
3) name me only ONE example where communism/left policies ever worked respectively solved any problem.
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
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@Nihilanthic I dont know what drugs you are taking. Please take simply less of it, will you??
Dipshit, the entrepreneurs are private entrepreneurs who also invest their own money or that of other businessmen in their inventions/techznologies. Thats the backbone of any successful CAPITALISTIC ECONOMY, you complete dimwit!!
What Marx wants is abolish private property /entrepreneurship, you brain amputated monkey!
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
So you say JP Morgan financed the Bolsheviks, but the Bolsheviks weren't doing his bidding, but the whole reason for this "point" is to prove that the elites subverted communism to their own ends? Which is it? Anyways, this is not so much an example of the inherent failures of communism as it is the perfect example of why businessmen hate competition, why the goal of every capitalist is to gain a monopoly, and provides even further evidence for the evils of capitalism and its global nature.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 I never said that the Bolsheviks were, or were not, doing JPMs bidding, nor have I mentioned "inherent failures of communism," only you said those things. There was a financial relationship. What does this mean?
Have I attacked "communism?" No. Have I defended "capitalism?" No.
What I'm saying is that we have to uncover these individuals and are doing. They appear to foment both sides of the capitalist/communist debate. Why?
wabiquark 1 year ago
@roserh6 By your statements, the farmer who hires people to come to his farm and help him dress chickens once a month wants a monopoly?
By your definition he's a capitalist and you said the goal of EVERY capitalist is to gain a monopoly.
You generalization is false.
You would be better to focus on routing out monopolists than capitalists.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@roserh6 Eww! "the evils of capitalism." You sound like a right-winger warning of the "evils of international communism."
The financial elites are funding both of you to fight each other.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@roserh6 said "The people must forcefully expropriate the property and power of those who own property and who profit off of workers who sell their labor to work on this property." [rearranged for clarity]
This appears to be the crux of your argument or theory.
Provide concrete examples and cases of where this has happened in the past and your vision of the scenario for this happening in the future, identifying specific persons in both cases.
Time to step outside the theoretical.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark Primitive accumulation is not a theory. It is an historical account of what happened in Europe leading up to the industrial revolution. Ever heard of the Inclosure Acts? There were a number of them at various times throughout history. Never did I claim case studies to be irrelevant. I just think your particular "case in point", like every piece of "evidence" used to construct your conspiracy theory, is a cherry-picked strawman.
roserh6 1 year ago
@wabiquark In the Spanish Civil War, anarchists and the POUM (anti-stalinist communists) took over land and workplaces and established many successful egalitarian communes in the province of Catalonia. The Paris Commune in 1871 was a successful, albeit shortlived, seizure by the working class. Cuba, no matter what you may say, despite being cut off from the world by the US, far surpasses every other Latin American country and many European countries.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 So what? There have been plenty of egalitarian communes established all over the world without violence. The Farm in Tennessee is a successful commune that's been in existence for several generations and appears to be a permanent community. They didn't expropriate anything from anyone.
I never said anything about Cuba.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark I'm not saying that the farmer is actively trying to gain a monopoly, but he would certainly be happy if he woke up one morning and his competition no longer existed.
"There was a financial relationship. What does this mean?"- Why don't you spell it out for me instead of side stepping all the time.
roserh6 1 year ago
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roserh6 1 year ago
@wabiquark You asked me to give examples of revolutions so I did. What do peaceful egalitarian communes have to do with this conversation at all?
"Maybe because you don't have a vision?..."- You've gone off the deep end now and it seems you never wanted to hold yourself up to the same standards as you do me. You can choose not to understand historical and economic processes, that is your prerogative. This has been like talking to a brick wall. Good day.
roserh6 1 year ago
@wabiquark Anyways, you keep shifting the burden of proof on me, when it is you who must prove your outlandish conspiracy theory. Sure, the United States and its corporate puppeteers have an interest in building up other countries and exporting capital around the world. It's called imperialism and it's how capitalism works. I suggest you read history books based on peer-reviewed empirical research that is not written by fringe "scholars" who are trying to prove an a priori version of history.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 What "conspiracy theory?" There's no theory, I made a statement and I supported it with documentation.
You claim the source, Sutton, is a "fringe scholar" with "a priori version of history."
What evidence do you have to support YOUR claims about Sutton?
At any rate, you now admit my original statement was not "nonsense" as you previously claimed.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark This conversation is not about my vision of a future solution, it is about a basic understanding of the nature of the problem, which you have long abandoned.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 Maybe because you don't have a vision? or because your vision includes violence against peaceful people for economic and social reasons?
"Long abandoned?" How would you know? That's ridiculous and rude.
wabiquark 1 year ago
The "system" is evil and we must change it? No, there are criminal tyrants in the world who rule by fraud and force and they subvert socialism, capitalism, and any other idealogy or philosophy to their own ends, which is controlling you for power and profit. To pretend that changing the "system" will get rid of these criminals is naive.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark You are a perfect example of how conspiracy theories breed apathy. I doubt you have seriously studied Marx's class analysis. You say the left/right paradigm is a smoke-screen, and yet you clearly harbor right-wing ideas about society and human nature, and your complacent attitude makes people like you the wet dream of the right. Stop pretending to have figured it all out just because you watched an Alex Jones film.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 Ha, typical Ad hominem attack, devoid of substance. If you disagree with me then produce counter evidence or arguments.
Your post is full of non-verifiable garbage, baseless insults and empty buzz words; the perfect pathetic example of why leftists and marxists get blown off as full of BS.
One's ideology provides value only as a philosophy to drive one's individual actions. Any attempt to institute idealogy by force will ultimately fail. Are you arguing philosophy or politics?
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark I don't think you understand. See, your original post was devoid of substance. Full of non-verifiable garbage and empty buzz words. Why should I be held to a higher standard simply because I disagree with you? My response, on the other hand, was not Ad hominem. Everything I said was completely relevant, and was based on the objective circumstances of the ideology you presented in your previous posts.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 You need more experience discussing and debating IDEAS instead of attacking individuals. Why don't you answer my question?
Here's a tip. Don't use big words like "Ad hominem" until you know the meaning. Each sentence in your post was a false statement about me, with no correlation or refutation of my original statements while accusing me of "apathy", "conspiracy theories", "right wing ideas about society" or "complacency" on my part. This is not only Ad hominem, but false, and rude.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@roserh6 I DO understand. You don't think. You disagree with me. You lack either the mental skills or communication skills, or both, to express how or why you disagree.
I do more to work against these criminals than you ever will. Your marxist mental masturbation means nothing in the real world of politics.
"objective circumstances of the ideology"???? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Get a dictionary, educate yourself.
You're a tool of the elites.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark Yes, the objective circumstances of your ideology. What's the matter, is that over your head? You want to have a serious discussion? It seems to me you came here looking for a fight from the get-go, setting up a straw man and talking about "naive leftists". You think you can just make inane, baseless comments and expect a rational discussion to ensue? You are so high and mighty! You've come here to "educate" the leftists and tell them what "rude" people they are!
roserh6 1 year ago
@wabiquark Alas, I will humor you, in a nutshell. You refer to "criminals", as in a small group of clever, evil people who cheated to game the system in their favor. This, however, oversimplifies the situation and looks past the systemic realities. The people who rule to world did not get there because they cheated, it is a part of the natural progression of, yes, the class based system of production and accumulation based on the production of commodities and the exploitation of labor.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 Fraud and force or wrong. You're talking about a theory, a philosophy, an opinion, of how society could develop. The same elite bloodlines that rule the world have been planning and doing these things since long before the industrial age. I'm talking about documented facts of history. Look at the numerous examples of how tyrants have overtaken so many governments, be they marxist, socialist, communist or capitalist systems to the detriment of the general population.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark You are not talking about documented facts of history if you think that the same elite bloodlines have been controlling the world and planning every event since before the industrial age. Tell me, be honest, where did you get this stuff from? Jordan Maxwell? Alex Jones? Peter Joseph?
I am not saying that all capitalists are "criminals" in the legal sense. Their crimes are institutionalized. economic realities.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 OK, since the *beginning* of the industrial age, by their own admission. I never said "planning every event," but they've had a hand in fomenting almost every major war since that time. Wall Street financed the Bolsheviks. Why?
I "get this stuff" from hours of my own research. Why don't you debate ideas and facts instead of attacking what you incorrectly imagine me, or my sources, to be?
Since you don't use common definitions, define "capitalist" and "crime."
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark I AM debating ideas and facts. Your ideas are wrong, and your facts are disputable. To say that the Bolsheviks were doing the bidding of Wall Street bankers is nonsense and has its roots in antisemitic conspiracy theories which tie Jewish bankers to a plot for world domination. Yes Lenin did enter into a relationship with oilman Armand Hammer who had Wall Street ties, but not until after 1917.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 "History is a mystery," as a great history professor once taught me. I said "financed", not "doing the bidding." Olof Aschberg was the conduit through which JP Morgan loaned 50 million dollars to the Bolsheviks in 1916. This is well documented and cross referenced by Antony C. Sutton in his book, "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution." Neither I nor Sutton have mentioned this as a "Jewish plot." In fact he includes an appendix debunking this notion.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark The Bolshevik consolidation of power and bureaucratic degeneration of the revolution is a whole other subject to be discussed and has little relevancy.
You are the one who called them criminals not me. A capitalist is somebody who who owns property and makes profit off of workers who sell their labor to work on his property (i.e. factories, farms, mines, corporations). A criminal is somebody who does something that is not sanctioned by the dominant system.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 The Bolshevik topic IS absolutely relevant. In my first posts on this video I said that "criminal tyrants [...] subvert socialism, capitalism, and any other ideology or philosophy to their own ends," and this appears to be a perfect example. The "Wall Street Bankers" in this case constituting the criminal tyrants. The Bolshevik revolution's ideology being what they subverted.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark "Primitive accumulation" is a term used to describe the historical process whereby over hundreds of years, those with power who were sanctioned by the government and the military, "forcefully transfered" agricultural commons and resources into their own private hands, and created the vastly unequal preconditions for the development of the capitalist system.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 said "primitive accumulation [...]" blah blah blah .... Since you can't dazzle with brilliance, you just baffle with bullshit theories. You don't provide any examples and you claim case studies are irrelevant.
So much empty air.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark Your nominal "right to private property" means nothing when 2% of the population own 80% of the wealth. Your "natural rights" and "individual liberties" amount to nothing in the real world where you must eat, have a roof over your head and provide for your family to survive. Freedom is the "freedom to", not the "freedom from" that classical liberalism loves to go on about.
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 I never said "right to private property," wealth does not necessarily equal property, and you know nothing of how I have provided for my family for a generation.
I want freedom from people like you who advocate a violent revolution to install a centralized dictatorial government which has no regard for natural rights and individual liberties, and would force me to pay for people like you (not my family), while establishing the infrastructure for the elites to turn us all into slaves.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark You say that changing the system won't "get rid of these criminals". You seem to have a very fatalistic understanding of society and human nature. But humans are not irreparably flawed like you assume. We are simply products of the material world which surrounds us. The "objective circumstances of your ideology" are that you no longer believe in social change, you become apathetic, "a tool of the elites".
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 You put words in my mouth and falsely accuse me. I do not assume that "humans are irreparably flawed." I never said that the people of the planet will never eliminate these thieves, crooks and liars. I said that switching political or social systems will not get rid of the criminals. They don't magically go away unless specific individuals are apprehended and charged for their specific crimes. How does marxism or socialism or communism deal with this problem? Seemingly doesn't.
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark You're right, the "criminals" don't magically go away. Their property and power have to be forcefully expropriated by the people. You say "fraud and force are wrong", but at the same time you say that they have to be "apprehended and charged for their crimes". Isn't that coercion? In a way, isn't that forcing your ideas on other people?
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 To "expropriate" means to forcefully transfer another's property to yourself. True legal action is not "expropriation" or "coercion." Legal action counters the coercion of criminals. The common law precedes the industrial age, the Constitution for the united States, and the Magna Carta and is in effect today. These are not my ideas, but the body of law protecting the natural rights of man for centuries. "Two wrongs don't make a right."
Identify the "criminals."
wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark You said, "To 'expropriate' means to forcefully transfer another's property to yourself."- This is exactly what capitalists do on a daily basis when they exploit the labor power of their workers and claim private property in the wealth and resources that are produced and used by the whole people.
roserh6 1 year ago
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wabiquark 1 year ago
@wabiquark I believe your question was whether I am arguing philosophy or politics? I am arguing both. The point of philosophy is to change the world right? What is your definition of politics? In the current system, and I think we both agree on this, politics is just a charade put on by the major parties which each represent the ruling class. You call them "criminals". I call them "capitalists".
roserh6 1 year ago
@roserh6 The point of philosophy is questioning and understanding. It doesn't answer objective questions. Its usefulness is the effect on the individual, and can only change the world via individual reflection. Philosophy cannot (successfully) be forced upon a population. Politics boils down to who controls you and how much control you give them or they take by force or fraud. You can argue both, but they are not the same.
Are you saying that all capitalists are criminals? Please explain.
wabiquark 1 year ago
This whole left/right paradigm is just a smoke-screen to keep everyone distracted from what the CRIMINALS are doing. The naive leftists believe that class struggle is EVERYTHING and that by instituting "marxism" or "socialism" somehow the injustices of society will disappear. Also we see leftists' nasty post after ridiculous post on accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being "anti-semite" or "racist" or worse.
wabiquark 1 year ago
Marx was basically a trust fund baby that never worked a real job his whole life.
jerthemessiah 1 year ago
@jerthemessiah he was a highly educated propagandist, who wanted to get rid of the middle class so the real elites and his kind; bankers, politicians and army officers can call the shot unhindered.
Order out of chaos, classic problem reaction solution....
jystyle 1 year ago
@jystyle Why are there still so many anti-Semites on youtube? Oh right... because none of you have jobs and vent your economic resentments in childish conspiracy theories.
1ivingHe11 1 year ago
@1ivingHe11 What are you on crack? i never mentioned Jews!!!!!
I said socialism and communism is a form of complete totalitarian dictatorship!! Where is it anti Semitic? I have Chinese noble heritage, when communist came and confiscated all our lands and possessions it was not fun for my grand father!!
I am pretty sure there were no Jews in communist China.
jystyle 1 year ago
@jerthemessiah That's wrong - Engels was the son of a wealthy industrialist, Marx basically starved.
1ivingHe11 1 year ago
@1ivingHe11 His dad owned a factory. He was loaded.
jerthemessiah 11 months ago
@jerthemessiah.......ha ha ha sorry but he hardley lived in luxury.
nrgetick 11 months ago
@nrgetick The US fought against dictators and communism as well in other wars like the Vietnam war, although they obviously committed war crimes, without no doubt.
As well it is very interesting that you never heard NO OUTCRY whatsover when communist countries
- occupied and/or started war with other countries
- implemented a terror-based system in ALL communist countries
- sent tanks whenever people stood up for FREEDOM in communist countries
Where was the outcry of the left there??
joaquinveyron 7 months ago
Surplus value = collective labor power
As the initial investor and organizers, there's nothing wrong with capitalist(s) reaping profits to return on initial investment and reinvestment towards efficiency and growth. The problems come when a "class" of capitalists uses those profits to create markets for the sole purpose of profit. Jobs, in these cases are merely a single step, in a wealth creation cycle. The only way, I can see to disrupt this process is to value justice and dignity over profit.
kokopelli314 1 year ago
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The Profit system is on its knees ,the working class as usual are dragged in poverty,misery,exploitation and war. The nomadic ramaging of profit led by Finance Capital is the organised fraud and usurpation for a few taken care by capitalist legal sytem, the historic falling rate of profit predictated by Karl Marx is the nemesis, the class consiousness of the world working class the means to transcend this tyrannical system for a world of cooperation for our common needs and well being
arzoyan 1 year ago
Tax land values, not the labor of workers---read Henry George's Progress and Poverty
QuashedByWatermelons 1 year ago
SEE: BILL ABRAMS part 2. AMERICANIZED LTV is a fact. Destroyed by the central banking system . Because slavery and control is so important to the world banking system.
cleanmrbroadway 1 year ago
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Does anyone else find it suspicious that marx never had a shred of evidence backing up his crazy ideas? For instance, by what specific mechanism is socialism supposed to transform into communism? No answer? It's magical! Have blind faith! Next, dialectical materialism: where is there even a single shred of evidence that this is a correct representation of reality? There isn't any evidence? It must be magically true because marx said so! Have blind faith! Wait, is communism really a religion?
vbritsi 1 year ago
Every original contribution that Marx made to our understanding of capitalism is demonstrably false: the working class does NOT become increasingly immiserated; the class structure does NOT become increasingly polarised; NO society has evolved from feudalism through capitalism to communism; the iron law of wages is fallacious; the State does NOT wither away when capitalism is abolished. Marx will continue to be neglected by economists because he was wrong in every important respect.
maureenOWW 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 I'll argue according to logic, not according to pedetermined, unscientific bias. One of the core values of Marxism is the deep trust in the scientific method, and if this were to prove Dialectical materialism wrong, then Marxism would die, it's only advocates the blind and the stupid. Typical Capitalist, you judge an economic system by how much capital it generates, not how it benefits human beings. Go to the third world and tell them about how successful your Capitalism is.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123
Eh, the dialectic approach is overrated. c.f. Hardt and Negri or Deleuze, the world is more complicated than hegelian idealism tries to render it. Binaries have always been naive, easy-to-digest simplifications of complex notions.
frigidfruit 1 year ago
@frigidfruit Well, if you lose the ambiguity and explain and substatiate your view then I'll listen.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123
hard to do when i only have 490 characters to use :P The dialectic approach tries to separate the world into two opposing camps. Problem is, the world isnt that simple; especially in late capitalism. for instance, one way the elite short circuited such an approach in american colonialism was to give poor whites a position of power over black slaves as overseers. This switched the struggle from poor against rich to whites against blacks, and made it difficult to wage revolution.
frigidfruit 1 year ago
@frigidfruit I think the problem here is that you have over-simplified the dialectical approach. Two concepts are born out of two before it, and thus so for an extended period of time, thus, it's not just a case of "two rigid" concepts.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@frigidfruit I think the problem here is that you have over-simplified the dialectical approach. Two concepts are born out of two before it, and thus so for an extended period of time, thus, it's not just a case of "two rigid" concepts.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 Ok east Germany. West Germany? Which had the better benefit? Nuff said
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 In terms of social solidarity and community spirit, and that crime figures and homelessnes were lower, East Germany. In terms of the shallow pursuit of wealth even if it is at the cost of others, West Germany. It is also worth stating that you're attacking a straw-man, I never said I advocated the variation of Socialism in East Germany. How do you know what my ideologies are? As far as I'm aware I've only told you I'm left wing.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 You are left wing. I used to be left wing. I know the talking points and the comebacks. I changed my views in college logically by studying econmics (my major) the left wing ideology is about agenda. Its a flawed look at the world in terms of gaining power. Once I had studied world economics communism. socialism, capitalism in all forms from Mises to Marx I came to the realization that Ludwig von Mises had it correct. history has proven this. East and West germany is only one of 100's
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 You can't have been a particularly devoted "left winger" if you assume that everyone on the left has the same beliefs withr egard to economics and the power of the state. There is nothing left wing about prioritising the economic system that brings the most wealth. If you think you were left wing and that moved you away, think again! If you give me an example of a country that didn't advocate "red fascism", e.g. Stalinism or Maoism that is a complete failure, or at least crap..
rimfa123 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 (cont.) then I'll reconsider, if you actually look at some countries, e.g. mine, (the UK) We are operating on the Marxist concept of Social Democracy, free health care, wellfare etc. And without boasting, our GDP isn't horrendous, true, it's been hit by the crisis, but arguably no more so than any other country. I would be interested to know when you were left wing, what your particualar ideology was, just wondering... I'm a Marxist-Leninist, as well as a hater of Stalinism.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 I became a Conservative/Libertarian a long time ago after I seen Reagans policies change the climate in this country. I hated Reagan as a young person, using the usual jargon that came along with it that I was merely regurgitating from what lies was being pumped into me. Reagan opened up free markets to something we hadn't had in forever in this country. I seen my family able to work and start businesses and put people to work under that climate part 1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@rimfa123 I seen people who were reliant on government (my cousins) get great jobs from factories that were opening in the area. They bought houses and had boats and wonderful lives. Then I seen when Clinton got in not but 2 years later the unions that my cousins were forced to be in with full support of the Democratic party force unrealistic demands on the companies forcing layoffs and job loss. The only thing saving Clinton was the Tech boom. But my cousins were skilled labor not in tech P2
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@rimfa123 They were in another industry. My cousins were also Democrats as most of my family. I seen the destruction of what Reagan had work so hard to build. I changed then. I realized what had transpired and I had to eat crow on my own beliefs. So, since I've seen the destruction of my country by the left and I fight it. I believe in low taxes and the private sector. Government poor. People working and rich. I know this first hand. So you can't argue me into listening to the left. I was left
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 I'd hardly call being a "Democrat" in America left wing. And the actions of the Democrats in America are hardly representative of the left.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 Yes the left wing in this country is socialist. They want European style economics. It goes against the constitution completely. Controlling business is their mandate. Nanny state laws to control what we can say eat or drink cause "they" know whats best for us. Conservatives/Libertarians are constitutionalists. They believe in freedom and liberty. If you show me Fascism, Socialism, Communism you will enslavement (unconstitutional). Show me a free country you'll see capitalism.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Oh Christ, here is the hillbilly, religious, gun-nut coming out in you. Another paranoid right winger, why didn't you just tell me before, I could have saved my time. If there is one thing I've learnt, that is, not to waste time arguing with people like you. Really educated arn't you, reverting to using cliched rhetoric and scare tactics, with a healthy mix of sickly-sweet flag worshiping. The only thing worse than an enslaved nation, like America, is the fact that you think...
rimfa123 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 That you're free. You don't believe in freeedom and liberty, you beleive in a 300 year old document constructed by racists, slave owners and homophobes. In Socialism the PEOPLE control the business, not the government. Who paid for you supposed education? Tell them to get a refund. If your mind wasn't so warped then you'd understand the BASIC principles of the left. How ignorant are you that you thought because you supported a centre political party then you were once left wing
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 In some branches of socialism yes they people can own businesses. But the government has control over ownership rights. Perhaps you don't understand socialism.You're comments about our founders being slave owners and racists shows me you are clueless. The founders could not do away with slavery right away because they couldn't. They were ALL against slavery. Socialism is a system designed to keep people in one income bracket. No riches, no poor. Discourages growth or innovation. Part 1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Typical right wing bigot, trying to turn my own criticisms against me, YOUR (not you're) oh educated one, defence slavery is hideous, do you know who the slaves are now? I'll give you a clue, 50% of people on Earth live on less than $2 dollars a day. That's ok though, they work their arses off in factories and have nothing, so you can sit on your backside eating yourself too death playing a musical instrument. Don't lecture me on Socialism you hypocrite.
rimfa123 1 year ago
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@SuperGuitarman69 (cont.) then I'll reconsider, if you actually look at some countries, e.g. mine, (the UK) We are operating on the Marxist concept of Social Democracy, free health care, wellfare etc. And without boasting, our GDP isn't horrendous, true, it's been hit by the crisis, but arguably no more so than any other country. I would be interested to know when you were left wing, what your particualar ideology was, just wondering... I'm a Marxist-Leninist, as well as a hater of Stalinism.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 You are unbelievable. America at least under the way it was a few years ago is the beacon of freedom. I play guitar for a living and I'm rich. WooHoo liberty! I own 3 cars and a 5 bedroom house. My employees work in the music industry and make more than you. They followed their dreams too. America is a land where your life is whatever you want to make it. Name 1 rich Canadian or European who isn't elite? You are sold a bill of goods. Propoganda!
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 I'm a student, of course your little employee's make more than me, why does that make them any better than me in any way? I would hardly call you rich to the extent that you're worthy of being compared to bourgeoisie, you, at best, are middle class. Why on earth would your warped little head want me to defend Capitalism in Europe? But, since you are such an ignorant twat, Google Allen Sugar, people like him help propogate the flase conciousness Capitalism injects.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 You are a student? How apropo. You know nothing but what you are told. So let me explain things to you. 1st of all you are talking to someone who holds 2 degrees. One in Comp sci the other in Economics (Mises) emphasis. I have studied all theories unbiasdly for over 6 years in college. Had extensive examination of all historical and political ramifications from each of there implementations. In defense to me you are wrong. Americans no matter their economic statis are in the top7% P1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Beacon of freedom? ha, your entire country is a laughing stock! 62% of you don't even accept evolution! Even in the crooked petty bourgeos area I live in, everyone can't stand America, you are satistically the most hated country in the world. You, and your appaling little theories are pathetic, why don't you get of your salad dodging arse, and go and preach Capitalism to the billions of people living on the brink of death so you can live comfortably, you're a zombie.
rimfa123 1 year ago
@rimfa123 So, let me tell you what America is all about. In this country in order to have true freedom and liberty the society must be able to thrive in the private sector. I realize this is a foreign concept to you because this isn't anything you know. In this country it is to be ran by limited government. This country is about people pursuing THEIR OWN INTERESTS. Those that would better their lives and those they love. That means that the government should be limited in spending. Part 3 of 4
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Why are you insulting my Capitalist sleezey government? You're attacking a straw man, I'm hardly a fan of a bunch of conservative bigots now am I?