Billy is a very rich hypocritical wanker who preaches about socialism and wanting more immigration while he lives in a mansion in all white Dorset. His excuse was " I have to think about the kids". Some of us don't have the choice Billy. Our white working class kids are a minority in many schools around Britain. The vast majority of racist attacks are against white victims according to the British Crime Survey 2006
Do you trawl the internet looking for things to be offended by? Unrestricted liberalism is indeed a road to disaster, but a complete rejection for liberalism is the road to fascism and genocide. In the UK we have always favoured moderate liberalism, and it has worked OK for 400 years in protecting us from extremism. I'm not ready to give up on that.
good, but nowhere near as good as the carpenter's 'close to you' that he performed, daffodils in pocket a la morrissey, on some all-night tv show way back in the 80's; that's a vid i'd pay good money to see again!
See Mr Bragg? Democracy doesn't work! heheheheh. This is hilarious. "You Carpenters fans are just messing with my mind. You're just being ironic! You make me sick!" You gotta love the man. But a Dylan cover is pretty expected, so a complete Carpenters cover would still be more interesting. :)
Please understand my comment was in response to a long and rather pointless conversation between myself and koksukay. His claim was that I would need to find 10 crimes commited by white people against black people for each story he could find where perpetrator was black. I was challenging both his maths and his racism.
He did the same thing at the End Of The Road Festival in Dorset last year, it was great! However, I think he may have played a different Dylan song.
He always puts on a great show, regardless of politics. Unfortunately, YouTube invites argument. It seems everyone's a know-it-all when they're sitting in front of their computer screen!
Now let me begin by saying that I fully accept that racial motivated crime disproportionately affects white people, but can I run this 10:1 ratio by you again.
For sake of argument let's assume that the ratio of whites to blacks in the UK is 7:1.
If there was no racial bias at all and violent crime was randomly distributed then 7 out of 8 crimes of violence would be committed by whites, and 7 out of 8 of their victims would be white. 1 in 8 crimes would be committed by blacks (continued)
And you have no more idea of the demographics of animal charities than me.
Once again, hypocrisy. When black people do something it's prove of their inferiority, when white people do it (or have done it in the past) it's nothing.
I love that. I mention that white-flight relies on three different things. You can only cope with one thing at a time. Any complexity, any attempt to demonstrate that real life is not black and white just meets with insults and accusations of being Marxist.
When you said "Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people", did you mean that was a bad thing, like the other things you said were in the book?
Oh, once again your lack of a historical perspective comes into the open.
Where are Europe's bears and wolves? Across most of Europe white people have wiped them out. Those white people sure love animals, don't they. . . . No RSPCA until social conditions mean most white people aren't living hand to mouth, which is quite recent.
Yes, it is speculation. What is interesting is that 'white flight' only happens when the level of the black population reaches a certain tipping point. Up to that point it seems most white people are not put off by having some black neighbours. Therefore that proves nothing regarding my point that encouraging immigrants to leave does not prove that most white people want all black people to leave.
Two other factors might be that these areas often have lower house prices (Birmingham and Liverpool for example) and if you are in lower paid jobs this makes housing affordable.
Secondly, black people might like to live in places where there are other black people.
These three factors together would lead to ghettos.
You cannot prove that the people who answered the survey wanted all non-whites to leave. People answering the survey would have had a range of meanings. Some may have been thinking more about Poles than Africans.
Sorry if you weren't suggesting it was a bad thing why did you post this "Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people". What point were you making? You agree with this statement. Why post it?
Once again, Koksukay I just wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to keep talking to me. This is so much more interesting than most conversations I have about race.
Sorry, again I probably didn't explain myself very well. You said how can Birmingham be approaching the point where less that 50% of the population is white if the non-white population is less than 15%. I just stated that this is easy because the black population of the country tends to focus in certain areas. I will post this, then double check if it answers at least part of one of your questions.
I think that was my mistake. I focused exclusive on racial motivated murderers having a significantly higher number of white victims than expected. As a result my agreement with you may not have been clear.
Oh Koksukay, you are being so hypocritical again. In your straw bale house video you clearly state that wealth inequalities are social and historical. Now when it suits you they are to do with parenting. You just contradict yourself all the time.
And to drag back up an older thread, I think I have finally got this one worked out, at last.
Do most white people want all black people to leave? I very much doubt that.
Do most white people want some black people to leave? Yes, especially illegal immigrants and those who come legally but then act in ways that are against the law. (continued)
Now let's have another go at clarifying this 'encouraging' business.
Do most people want to encourage at least some immigrants to leave? Yes.
But do we really want to encourage overseas students who bring millions of pounds into the Higher Education System to leave? Many Universities would have to be cut back without that funding?
Do we want to encourage highly specialised doctors and others to leave?
Finally, for now, encourage always implies some motivation. I have friends who have moved to Australia, Nigeria and China. Did they want to go? Well, yes, but they also had factors encouraging them to stay. In each case it was some benefit of one option over another that led to the final move. You can only truly encourage someone to do something they have some motivation to do. Otherwise all you can do is force or coerce.
Now consider this quote from a scientific journal May 2007
"The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. . . (continued)
It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes."
You see all this is more complex that ignorant black and white thinking allows.
Hi Koksukay, thanks for posting that. It has let me research what you have said. Certainly a lot to think about. Could you post your original source for your data so I can look at it myself? Many thanks, Tim
"How can one huge city become majority non-white, since, as you claim, 90% of the population is WHITE, so every house that goes up for sale in Birmingham will have 9 times as many potential white buyers, as non-whites?"
Now this one is well below your usual standard. Immigrant focuses on key sites, as you know. Birmingham, London, Liverpool etc. Many other parts of the country are 99% white. Of course this means you have to consider details, not prejudice.
Once again, you fail to notice when you have won and argument. I have already agreed with you that the proportions of white victims of racial motivated crime shows that this is an issue that needs dealing with. I have said that I haven't posted nine similar crimes because I agree with you. Why do you find it so hard to accept that I agree with you?
OK, please, please listen so you don't have to say this again. I have already agreed with you that there is strong data that most people in this country want to reduce the 'immigrant' population. Please do not say that I "claim that most white people want to live around non-whites". All that proves is you don't read the posts you have respond to.
What facial features are shared by all Black Africans apart from skins colour. Oh yes, the hair, which is not like ape hair at all, it's curlier and thicker. All other features vary greatly across the continent so the only uniquely black feature is darker skin. That's why geneticist will tell you that the human population of Africa has a greater genetic variation than the rest of the species. Or am I missing something?
Another attempt. Koksukay, you protested at an Islamic School teaching children that Jews are invading Muslim countries. Are you the same Koksukay who posted his theories on Jews that were considerably stronger than that? Please answer 'yes' or 'no'.
So let me see if I understand you, all poor people are poor because they have scummy parents who don't read to them and watch Sky TV all day. Have I got that right?
Could you do that. I tried having a go myself using Google, but decided as I found so easy to tell which were apes and which were people it wasn't very helpful. Maybe you can find better pictures.
And a final point for now. If you knew any biology you would know that convergent evolution allows very similar looking organisms to develop who share no recent ancestor, while divergent evolution allows closely related species to look very different. That's why science tries not to judge by external features only. But this is a waste of time because your mind is so closed that nothing will ever make you be anything other than what you already are.
I notice Koksukay that you haven't answered whether you are the same Koksukay who wrote all those things about Jews, when you attack Muslims for attacking Jews.
You just can't admit your own level of hypocrisy.
You are of course true. Now let me answer. Let's take it as read that black people commit more crimes than white people in the UK. Therefore black people are more criminal, right? Now let's also assume that poor people commit more crimes than rich people. So poor people are more criminal, right? Now let's suppose that the social conditions that lead to more black people being poor are the same as those that lead to more poor people committing crimes. Does that make sense?
You still do not get my main point. Judging by externals is often poor thinking. Tell you what, make a list of things that black people and white people have in common, now make a list of things all humans have in common with primates, then make a list of things that black people have in common with primates that white people do not. Notice anything? The first two lists are quite long. The third list contains just two things, darker skin and living in Africa. Make sense?
OK, fair question. Before the Black Death Europe was largely a feudal system. There were a few very powerful land-owners and pretty much everyone else lived effectively as slaves (serfs). After the Black Death there was a high demand for labour, if you didn't liked your current master you could up and work for someone else. This when trades, crafts and universities could exist with a freedom from feudal masters in urban centres.
Please notice this in not left wing, it's liberal free market.
How dreadful Koksukay, a Muslim textbook that says that Jews conspired against Islam. Awful, evil, hate filled.
BTW you wouldn't be the same Koksukay who wrote this 3 weeks ago?
"Yes, the poor, down-trodden Jews... Who runs America's Congress? What is AIPAC? Who owns 90% of the media? Who is behind the war on Iraq? Who wants to attack Iran? Who benefits? Who is behind the mass invasion of all white countries by non-white third world parasites in their millions? THE ETERNAL JEW."
Now of course no Christian would ever say that homosexuals are an abomination and should be locked up, or that it is permissible to killed doctors and nurses working in an abortion clinic?
Like I have said before, all races (and all religions) tend to have a share of people who are bend on violence and hatred.
Koksukay, can you explain where my point about the history of racial dominance is wrong? White people's dominant position in the world appears to owe much more to historical accident than biological superiority.
What you would have pointed out is that 'monkey' is not considered racist by many Indians. For them 'monkey' just means naughty or cheeky. In a West Indies v Australia Test match not so long ago this caused a fuss. An Indian played used the term monkey in this and was accused of racism. The trouble is it is the history of the use of te term that causes problems, and of course, ignorant racists like you.
You have done it again, haven't you? You have left my substantial comment about why your racist views don't fit with science or history and yet responded to a relatively trivial point that no-one likes being called a 'monkey'.
You are right, hilarious. Why might a black person think that three wise monkeys was referring to him? I don't know. How about a while guess that he has been taunted by ignorant racists with names like "gorilla" "ape" and "monkey" for years. Now that couldn't have anything to do with it.
Tell you what Koksukay, go into a local biker pub, find the biggest, whitest biker in the pub and call him a monkey. I bet he want be offended at all.
You see folks, Koksukay's views on the evolution of the races shows his ignorance. Go back between 1,000 and 1,500 years and do an imaginary world tour. Consider that racial differences probably began between 30,000-60,000 years ago. But even 1,000 years ago we see no superiority of any race. My best guess is then two things happened. 1) The Black Death killed 1/3 of the European population. This disrupted existing social structures and allowed many new structures to evolve.
In particular this allowed the rise of traders, artisans and intellectuals. The most efficient social structures competed and drove forward social evolution, what Pratchett et. al. call "extelligence" as opposed to intelligence. This set the scene for happening two.
2) The invention of the printing press with moveable type. This allowed rapid and cheap spread of knowledge. Secrets no longer had to be passed from Master to Novice, anyone could get a book and read it for themselves.
After something like 10,000 to 50,000 years of racial equality, suddenly a range of people groups, with similar external features and living in a defined geographical area were placed to dominate and conqueor most of the world within 300 years.
Notice a few things about this theory.
It explains observed facts concerning dates of events
It isn't based on biology
It isn't Marxist (it's more liberal free market)
It gives all people the freedom to create ethical solutions
You know Koksukay, I'm really enjoying this debate. All my friends and colleagues are liberals. Conversation like, "Racism's a terrible thing, isn't it?" "Yes, dreadful." are hardly stimulating. You have helped me recognise both that immigration is more of an issue that I had previously accepted, and that racial motivated murders (of white people) are a real issue that we haven't been addressing. So, thank you.
I still think racism and your arguments suck, but your facts are good. Keep talking.
Don't you read what I've written? Where did I claim that non-whites are no more likely to be murderers than whites? I've already stated that there are a disproportionately more non-whites committing racially motivated murderers than whites.
You are right about me having trouble keeping up. Doesn't the greater number of whites mean that even if it was random then blacks would commit more inter-racial murders than whites?
I love the way you keep arguing when I have already agreed with you. Hello, I'll say this one last time for the hard of thinking, most people in this country want to reduce the level of immigration and want to encourage immigrants to leave. Of course, we are left with the 'problem' of black people whose families have lived in the UK for over 100 years. Not exactly immigrants, are they?
"Who do you believe? Me or your own lying eyes" Hilarious! But I do see you problem. You judge by externals. Because black people have dark skins they must be closer to gorillas. That's called prejudice. To focus on a visible feature and judge everything else from there. Secondly, you don't understand the difference between 'common ancestor' and 'evolved from'.
Oh you moron, the BNP say they want the "introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question." Notice that, "voluntary", "opportunity" . So will someone 'voluntarily' take the 'opportunity' do what they don't want to do? What part of that don't you get?
All races are capable of acts of both great kindness and great evil. All races are capable of acts of creative genius and crass stupidity. Just posting lots of examples of one sort for one race proves nothing.
Once again, let me say where I agree with you. 2006 Home Office Stats show that about 42% of victims of racial motivated murders were white. Assuming that the perpetrator in each case was non-white (seems logical)this looks like an important issue that isn't being talked about. Why? Political correctness gone mad? Yes, partly. Because it will provoke the idiotic morons whose level of debate is to call black people gorillas? Absolutely. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Koksukay, I'm not really following your maths. If ethnic minorities compose 10-15% of the population, why should I find 10 crimes for every 1 of yours?
2 weeks ago you told me "The phrase "encourage someone to LEAVE" means something completely different to "HELP someone to LEAVE", and you know it". So please, can you clarify how you intend to 'encourage' people to leave if you will not help somone to leave?
That's not a code, it's an assumption. It's like me saying "he didn't have far rigth connections" is a code for saying he's white. It's a guess, and you attacked me for guessing, but more hypocrisy. I'm not surprised.
I have read the BNP manifesto, this is what it says "we call for . . . the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question." Well blow me, generous finacial incentives. Are you sure encourage and help aren't the same, or is it hypocrisy?
Stabbed to death by a gang of White youth as he returned home from work. In November 2001, a 15-year-old boy was found guilty of murder. Two others were convicted of manslaughter and a 16-year-old was convicted of perverting the course of justice. Police said the murder was 'purely' racial.
Zahid was the victim of a racist attack in his cell at Feltham Young Offenders Institute. He was just 12 hours from being released. The attack left Zahid with massive head injuries and he died five days later. His assailant was his cell mate, 19-year-old Robert Joseph Stewart, who was jailed for life for his murder.
1) It wasn't racist. Germans are a different race.
2) Invasion by armed force with an organised plan of attack with the aim of conquest isn't the same as immigration from diverse parts of the world for mixed reasons.
3) Extreme racist and extreme anti-racist viewpoints make it impossible for the moderate middle to discuss sensible solutions.
4) Address push and pull factors is needed to solve the problem of mass immigration.
5) If you don't intend to us force, what are you suggesting?
My God, can't you read? I never offered to send you the money or asked you to send me the money. I don't want to tell you where I live any more than you want to tell me. I offered to give the BNP the money and asked you to give the Refugee Council the money.
Koksukay, face it. The BNP doesn't have 57% public support, and you know it, yet you still posted the data. If you believe it, take the bet, if not, please only use reliable data.
Right, let me see if I have got this right. Because the report said he was from an area of Berlin with a high immigrant population you have assumed he was non-white and his victims were all white. You have not seen a picture or read a name. He is described as German. Please tell me if you have any evidence to determine this lad's race, because I can't find any.
Koksukay, can't help noticing you haven't replied about the 30% figure for the black population.
Please understand, you have convinced me that a problem exists here where I didn't see one before. From your figures I think a more realistic figure is 12%. How that is as alarmist as 30%, but think about the implications. A 3% rise in 8 years means that we could be at 30% in somewhere round 40 years time. And beyond that? This is something that needs addressing.
I've finally found this poll. Koksukay, you'll be pleased to hear that the BNP how have 67% support. Just think, by the end of next week they'll have over 100% support if trends continue.
Tell you what, if BNP come third or better in the next General Election (no. of votes cast) I'll send them £100. If they come 4th or worse, you send the refugee council £10. Willing to trust this poll for a 1000% profit? Hmmmm
Koksukay, you are possibly revealing your true colours. You wish to oppose immmigration in the way we opposed Nazism, by armed force.
My God, the fact that you compare immigration to Nazism leaves me breathless. You cannot accept that to solve the problem of on-going immigration we must address why people leave their home countries as well as how we can encourage (and where necessary, compel) people to return. Any other response will end in either chaos or fascism.
"One of the most despicable crimes in the last 100 years." This probably wouldn't make my top 100 crimes. I can think of many a lot worse committed by peole of all races.
Yes, let's imagine that this was a white minor. First guess. Not the reaction of a sane person, therefore probably manslaughter. German sentence for manslaughter 5 to 15 years, so, yes, I guess 7 years is legal. We can argue about whether this is morally right, but this doesn't seem as if race was a factor. Plenty of white people get similar sentences in this country. I know of a case where a white person sexually assualted and murdered a 9 year old, and was released after about 20 years. Sick.
Koksukay, you really can't do the maths. To get from 9% in 2001 to 15% in 2008 by immigration you have to make someone highly improbably assumption. To get from this almost impossible figure to 30% in 7 years you have to assume that the black population of the country produced two babies for each member of the community, from new-borns to 100 year olds. Rough guess means that every black women the 16-40 years old age producing 16 babies in 7 years. Wow, I guess I missed that.
You really can't follow your own argument. You attacked me for picking on possible increase since 2001, I explained my thinking, and you change the argument again.
I'm now going to say something that I will probably hate myself for saying. If current trends continue then there will be increasing problems. There are two dangers that worry me. One is that it becomes so unacceptable to debate these facts that we sleep walk into problems. The second is that the debate gets taken over by racists. For God's sake let us not fall into "Deutschland erwache! Juda verrecke!"
Dear Koksukay, You said "Huh? What population? When did I say that?"
Let me recap. You implied that the ethnic minority pop could be 30%. I said in 2001 it was 9%. You gave figures for immigration and said it would have gone up since 2001. I did the maths, it gave a max of 15%, if you accepted some improbably givens. You said what about birth-rates. I suggested that 'immigrants' and settled minority populations have different birth rates, you said I was a cretin. Hope that clears things up.
Yes, I suspect. Why, because I will admit when I have no data. Look at the data you used. It's for foreign born women. That's my whole point. A settled population will be spread across all age groups (not many births to 8 or 80 year olds). 1st generation immigrants are disproportionately aged 18-40 years old, therefore have higher birth rates.
Here is a question I would really like you to answer Koksukay.
I live in Northampton. One of our most famous football player is Walter Tull. He was the first black footballer in the football league. He was born in 1888.
Here's my question, are his descentants 'immigrants' or 'British'?
And here we see the psychological phenomena known as projection. YOU hate black people. You project this on the them. So in your own eyes you see the hate as theirs.
But why not go to my basic point. If we actively worked to improve conditions in places like Haiti (which you mentioned in another post) people what stay there and not come here, therefore much more effectively (and cheaply) solving the problem.
Birth rates, yes birth rates are higher for 1st generation immigrants. Why? Because most 1st generation immigrants are between 18 and 40, the age when people have kids. For established populations I suspect that the birth rates are pretty similar.
Oh my God, you can't follow your own arguments. You said that the population would have arisen since 2001 (& years ago), I was doing the maths on your argument, now you blame me for picking that date, I wonder who the Moron is?
And a final point for now, I don't want to reduce the number of immigrants coming in, I what to reduce the number of emmigrants feeling that they have to leave their own country due to poverty, war and injustice. That is a win-win situation, although that may be an alien concept to you, like encouragement being a good thing and not being the same as force.
I am white, and I'm proud to be white and British (although to be fair that is illogical as I didn't choose to be either). For some people their only pride comes from being better than others. To them, everything is a competition with winners and losers, goodies and badies. To me, I'm proud to be me, and I'm happy to let you be proud of who you are, as long as it doesn't harm the children or frighten the animals.
Oh Koksukay, not up to your usual standard of debate. Late night was it? I believe a free movement of people is good in an ideal world. But forced movement of people, due to war, oppression, or poverty is a bad idea. Why does this imply that I believe white people are any more or less evil than anyone else?
As for democracy, we are engaging in a free debate. Isn't that essential to democracy?
500000 for 7 years = 3500000. Theoretically this could give 15% tops, if
1) All immigrants are non-white. Really?
2) No immigrant ever returned home. Really?
I suspect you present these alarmist figures to stir up race hatred.
I am in favour of strong policing of our borders, asserive deportation of illegal immigrants, and active measures to improve conditions to stop people leaving their home countries. This is not racist, just common sense. You however?
Sorry folks, I've been replying as Jammay again. If you decide to reply can you please return to one of my posts as Jammay tends to get a bit p*ssed off my me replying on his account.
Koksukay, as you have had the courtesy to agree with me, I will return the favour. Having looked at the data I agree most people in this country want to reduce the number of immigrants coming in and want active measure to get immigrants to leave. No quibbles, no qualifications.
This post shows typical racist hypocrisy. When we talk about anyone but immigrants we use encourage as a positive thing, and encouraging person, a source of encouragement, they encouraged me to keep trying. When applied to immigrants people know the coded language. It now means force, coerce, compel. It is the why the Nazis made they actions acceptable to an otherwise decent population. Whose slippery slope are we standing on?
This post shows so clearly why poll data is such a poor source of info for arguing. The poll was done for YouGov, presumably using a standard format for avoiding bias, and was done for Sky, not BBC.
I also think I might have worked out our problem with the word "encourage". I use the word in the way a parent might encourage their child to do something. You seem to use it in the way that kidnappers might encourage their victim's family to hand over money. Of course we have diffent understanding of the word. Can either of us know how people answering the poll would have taken it?
In the 2001 census there were 9% of the population who described themselves as non-White. So where does Koksukay's "15%, 20%, 30%" come from? Yes, if the sample was truly random it was very unlikely to be 0%, but vanishly unlikley to be even 15%, unless it was so unrandom that the data is meaningless.
So anyone who is reading this. For the second time I've posted comments under Jammay's name. This is because I didn't check to see if he was still logged in before I replied. Still, it's nice to know you agree with me Koksukay.
I would encourage many immigrants (doctors, nurses, civil engineers, environmental scientists etc) to leave because I believe that their skills are better used to improve conditions in their home countries, thus reducing the factors that lead to people leaving their home countries in the first place.
And bearing in mind that a significant proportion of the immigrant population also support the idea of limiting further immigration. Complicated, ain't it. That is why simple black/white solutions are such rubbish.
You seem unable to accept the fact that almost all dictionary definitions of 'encourage' mention words like help, assist or support. But then, words like "resettlement", "special treatment" and "work will set you free" have all been redefined in the past by those with an agenda.
OK Folks, let's hear what Koksukay isn't telling us about the poll he bangs on about.
52% of people opposed the suggestion that the government should encourage immigrants to leave. Notice this is oppose, they were also give the choice of neutral or support.
In the same poll only 16% of respondents said black people were inherently less British than white people.
On every single item polled support dropped when the policy was identified as a BNP policy.
Sorry Koksukay, I have just realised I didn't address the point you raised.
Either a) this is the kind of poll where people are given a Yes/No answer and asked to ring a different number to register their vote. In which case it is meaningless in terms of trying to know what the average person wants as people with strong views tend to vote more. Or b) this is a truly random poll and people are given a choice. Then I might say 'yes' to enocourage but 'no' to force, which only counts as a 'yes'.
And please, finally, can I asnwer this point. The percentages you get in opinions polls vary massively with the question you ask and the audience you ask. The example I gave earlier was that 19% of Scots said they would support the break-up of the UK, while 41% said that they support the Scottish Parliament seeking to create and independent Scotland. Can you see why language is important? And why care needs to be taken when using poll data in arguments?
OK, so maybe I redefine language. I know, let's look it up in a Dictionary. The Oxford Dictionary of English defines 'encourage' as "give support, confidence, or hope to someone Give support and advice so that they will do or continue to do something, help to stimulate an activity."
Of course I realise that the dictionary may have been written by Marxists. Or perhaps I do understand English and it is you who wishes to twist English for your own purposes.
So what kind of encouragement do you think they had in mind? A polite smile and a 'please'. I really don't see the difference between encourage, help, assist, support, facilitate or a load of other words. Could you explain the difference?
Do you know it never occured to me that the mention of excluding might be taken as a threat. That was pretty stupid of me to not reason that. The only reason I mention if was your implication that for some reason I couldn't bring myself to talk about 'it'. I simply wanted to let you know that if I really didn't want to talk about it why would I keep replying?
And Koksukay, about your jibe about not being able to bring myself to talk about it, remember, I posted this video and have the ability to exclude you from posting on this video. I don't because I believe that debate is better than censorship.
Is people groups politically correct? I have no idea. I just know that pretending that all white people or all black people are the same is clear rubbish. "People group" means any group of people who are bonded by shared history for example living in the same area. It just seemed a better name than race. I think I made it up, but I might have heard it and liked the phrase. Sorry if it caused confusion, and I hope I have clarified it.
So the fact that replying to you isn't the most important thing in my life means I can't bring myself to talk about it. How egotistical is that!
You clearly don't read my posts. See the one I wrote earlier about the % of people who support Scottish independence.
I'd quite like the government to consider ways to help immigrants leave the UK. I'd also like to reduce the factors that force people to leave their own countries. Seems like it would be a fairer world all round then.
I think land mass possibly plays a small part in success of certain people groups, and yes, I also believe that historical accidents also play a part. More influenial is the current lack of civic government in some parts of the world. Ever wondered why Canada has a crime rate so much lower than the US? One theory is that in Canada state forces preceded settlers, therefore people looked to democratic institutions to solve problems and didn't take the law into their own hands.
Like I said, no reasonable debate is possible with a mind so full of hate. You won't even consider the possibility that your views are based on biased, self-selecting data.
While we are dealing with data consider this fact. 19% of Scots agreed that they would support the break-up of the UK, while 41% agreed that the Scottish Parliament should seek to create an Independent Scotland. So how many Scots want independence? Opinion polls are a very poor source of data.
OK, let's try a quick test. I think that the point you make about why some countries are such awful places to live and why we can't shelter all the world's poor and needy is a reasonable point. We can debate it.
Do you accept that your posts suggest that the vast majority of black people are sub-85 IQ rapists and murderers and all white people are noble and democratic may be blind prejudice not fact?
I have nothing to say, you astounded me with your retort. It is a testament to your intellect that you posted it. I was clearly mistaken in how I believed one should sight evidence, clearly all that is need is capitals e.g:SURVEY, followed by a generalisation -- 'that was reported in all the newspapers'. Yet I did note the irony with which you answered my question -- 'why argue so aggressively?' -- 'you moron' all that was missing was the exclamation mark, yet maybe the point was self-reflective
I thought long before replying to you koksukay. I suspect you are so full of your own opinions that no debate is possible.
What about the violence perpetrated by both sides in the English Civil War on women and children? Every read what British soldiers did in Korea? (Abu Ghraib comes to mind.) Evil is a potential in all humans when society isn't strong enough to contain it. Compare what Salaman did when he retook Jerusalem to what the white crusader did when they captured it.
It's sad that videos such as this somehow attract people with savage political and social views; usually attempting to aggressively make their point heard by verbally belittling everyone else, while also desperately attempting to legitimise their abstract arguments with lines such as '50% of people believe...' Why argue so aggressively? Why use statistics with absolutely no sources or evidence?
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." Frank Zappa
Koksukay has a point about evolutionary development.
Just look at the BNP supporters, knuckle dragging, boneheaded idiots who may just one day advance enough to catch up with Neanderthal Man.
Very good at maths though I'll give you that, Millions of BNP supporters, that's very difficult to argue with, I wouldn't be surprised if you're the majority party by about 2009.
You may not like Bragg's politics or his humour, but his comment "you make me sick" was taken in good humour by the audience. His opening comment to a largely Christian audience was "Trust your lot to get the good weather!" He spoke with warmth and respect in the set and was well received. The fact that you think someone, anyone is a "sad excuse of a human being" reveals more about your values that it does about Bragg. But then, the BNP is full of people who think others are less than human.
Funny, I don't see many red haired people or blond people, or black haired people in the audience. In fact the light is so bad I can't make out the skin colour of the audience at all. But then I guess I don't have a desire to project race into a nice of fun music that the audience weren't offended by.
Why would Billy Bragg want his own political party? He supports the Lib Dems. You're fixated with skin colour. This is footage from one gig. Who knows who was in the audience, and frankly, who cares. And the only muppets are members/supporters of the racist BNP. So I hope you're not one of them.
Nick Griffin and his ilk aren't worth "debating" with. There's nothing to debate with racists. They already lack basic common sense. The BNP is a tiny fringe group of extremists. There are far more important people to be concerned about.
Why would Billy Bragg want to "debate" with Nick Griffin? Not even mainstream politicians want to talk to Nick Griffin, so why would a musician? Most rational people want to ignore the racist garbage of the BNP.
Billy Bragg is a very successful musician, and I hate to say it, but in the current proprty market, a million pounds for a house is not a big deal if you're reasonably well-off. He moved to Dorset because it's a beautiful part of the country, not to escape multiculturalism. If Dorset had more ethnic minorities, it certainly wouldn't put him off. There's nothing wrong with having a middle class lifestyle while supporting the working classes.
Must be a recent development because I've seen him about 12 times over the years -- from the Internationale tour to the William Bloke tour -- and he never once touched an acoustic. As most of my favorite singer-songwriters are acoustic-based I welcome it.
i think you should learn the meaning of the word comparison - i wasn't suggesting that "bill" was seeking to challenge sonic youth. Also, instead of timbre, maybe wooden is a better choice of word to describe that nasal chalk onna blackboard
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
much prefer sonic youth's carpenters cover - straightahead and no self-regarding "irony". It made me consider the song again. The Dylan cover is shite. Bragg's voice has no timbre
I don't think Bill was doing the cover as a challenge to Sonic Youth's version. It was a one off joke of a version. You should learn the meaning of timbre before you use the word. The tone of Billy's voice might not be your thing, but it has timbre!
poking fun at the carpenters again.
this billy boy should have the wondrous voice that karen had
No1KCfan6 1 year ago
oh i remember this so well!
jeanmc9 1 year ago
Was this at the egg? It seems familiar, but i was a bit loaded.
flatblack138 1 year ago
Billy rules. That is all.
jeffie2k 1 year ago 4
Your the reason I'm traveling on.........
ekhukill1 1 year ago
This is my favorite Carpenters song.
nicamarisol 1 year ago
Does anyone know the chords to the Carpenters song????
jammymck67 1 year ago
left wing wanker
raychandler123 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
He thinks he is being funny cos the Carpenters had a hit with this LEON RUSSELL song. Leon can outwrite this woody gutherie wannabe anyday.
alienhuman 1 year ago
I think the Carpenters joke is a little lost on me. Perhaps before my time. Anyone care to explain?
milkypea 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Billy is a very rich hypocritical wanker who preaches about socialism and wanting more immigration while he lives in a mansion in all white Dorset. His excuse was " I have to think about the kids". Some of us don't have the choice Billy. Our white working class kids are a minority in many schools around Britain. The vast majority of racist attacks are against white victims according to the British Crime Survey 2006
HRHPrincePhilip1 2 years ago
Do you trawl the internet looking for things to be offended by? Unrestricted liberalism is indeed a road to disaster, but a complete rejection for liberalism is the road to fascism and genocide. In the UK we have always favoured moderate liberalism, and it has worked OK for 400 years in protecting us from extremism. I'm not ready to give up on that.
MTAllenby 2 years ago
good, but nowhere near as good as the carpenter's 'close to you' that he performed, daffodils in pocket a la morrissey, on some all-night tv show way back in the 80's; that's a vid i'd pay good money to see again!
hecatewoods 2 years ago
sonic youth do a good cover of this carpanters track
nukeim2000 2 years ago
carpenters song is a better song and his performance was much better too...dylan cover was all wrong
rohanhaggart 2 years ago
it was different, i liked it.
mattg803 2 years ago
See Mr Bragg? Democracy doesn't work! heheheheh. This is hilarious. "You Carpenters fans are just messing with my mind. You're just being ironic! You make me sick!" You gotta love the man. But a Dylan cover is pretty expected, so a complete Carpenters cover would still be more interesting. :)
HolidayInGuantanamo 2 years ago 2
pleas,see this documentary: ZEITGEIST2 is important
frogps3 3 years ago
I would have liked BB to have done this straight up. it's a great song and his voice is in fine fettle. shame.
jdclover 3 years ago 3
Comment removed
macdonnnn 3 years ago
Please understand my comment was in response to a long and rather pointless conversation between myself and koksukay. His claim was that I would need to find 10 crimes commited by white people against black people for each story he could find where perpetrator was black. I was challenging both his maths and his racism.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Let me intrude upon the squabbling long enough to say what a wonderful post this is.
Top notch interplay, snark and tongue-in-cheek give-and-take with the audience.
Thank you.
undrdwg 3 years ago 4
Thank you for your comment undrdwg, the whole set was full of warmth and humour. It was a thoroughly enjoyable evening.
TimMars66 3 years ago
He did the same thing at the End Of The Road Festival in Dorset last year, it was great! However, I think he may have played a different Dylan song.
He always puts on a great show, regardless of politics. Unfortunately, YouTube invites argument. It seems everyone's a know-it-all when they're sitting in front of their computer screen!
kenhomhotwok 3 years ago 2
Now let me begin by saying that I fully accept that racial motivated crime disproportionately affects white people, but can I run this 10:1 ratio by you again.
For sake of argument let's assume that the ratio of whites to blacks in the UK is 7:1.
If there was no racial bias at all and violent crime was randomly distributed then 7 out of 8 crimes of violence would be committed by whites, and 7 out of 8 of their victims would be white. 1 in 8 crimes would be committed by blacks (continued)
TimMars66 3 years ago
and 7 out of 8 victims would be white. Therefore if it was purely random then the level of inter-racial violence would be 1:1, not 10:1.
Have I got that right?
TimMars66 3 years ago
nope
macdonnnn 3 years ago
Care to expand on that?
TimMars66 3 years ago
And you have no more idea of the demographics of animal charities than me.
Once again, hypocrisy. When black people do something it's prove of their inferiority, when white people do it (or have done it in the past) it's nothing.
TimMars66 3 years ago
I love that. I mention that white-flight relies on three different things. You can only cope with one thing at a time. Any complexity, any attempt to demonstrate that real life is not black and white just meets with insults and accusations of being Marxist.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Well I guess we'll have to not agree to disagree on that.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Got to go and get ready for work.
Speak with you again soon, Koksukay.
TimMars66 3 years ago
No, that is not what I am asking.
Let me try and put it simply.
When you said "Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people", did you mean that was a bad thing, like the other things you said were in the book?
If not, why post it? What point were you making?
If so, will you admit this was hypocrisy?
TimMars66 3 years ago
Oh, once again your lack of a historical perspective comes into the open.
Where are Europe's bears and wolves? Across most of Europe white people have wiped them out. Those white people sure love animals, don't they. . . . No RSPCA until social conditions mean most white people aren't living hand to mouth, which is quite recent.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Yes, it is speculation. What is interesting is that 'white flight' only happens when the level of the black population reaches a certain tipping point. Up to that point it seems most white people are not put off by having some black neighbours. Therefore that proves nothing regarding my point that encouraging immigrants to leave does not prove that most white people want all black people to leave.
TimMars66 3 years ago
That is almost certainly part of the answer.
Two other factors might be that these areas often have lower house prices (Birmingham and Liverpool for example) and if you are in lower paid jobs this makes housing affordable.
Secondly, black people might like to live in places where there are other black people.
These three factors together would lead to ghettos.
TimMars66 3 years ago
You cannot prove that the people who answered the survey wanted all non-whites to leave. People answering the survey would have had a range of meanings. Some may have been thinking more about Poles than Africans.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Sorry if you weren't suggesting it was a bad thing why did you post this "Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people". What point were you making? You agree with this statement. Why post it?
TimMars66 3 years ago
Once again, Koksukay I just wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to keep talking to me. This is so much more interesting than most conversations I have about race.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Sorry, again I probably didn't explain myself very well. You said how can Birmingham be approaching the point where less that 50% of the population is white if the non-white population is less than 15%. I just stated that this is easy because the black population of the country tends to focus in certain areas. I will post this, then double check if it answers at least part of one of your questions.
TimMars66 3 years ago
I think that was my mistake. I focused exclusive on racial motivated murderers having a significantly higher number of white victims than expected. As a result my agreement with you may not have been clear.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Oh Koksukay, you are being so hypocritical again. In your straw bale house video you clearly state that wealth inequalities are social and historical. Now when it suits you they are to do with parenting. You just contradict yourself all the time.
TimMars66 3 years ago
And to drag back up an older thread, I think I have finally got this one worked out, at last.
Do most white people want all black people to leave? I very much doubt that.
Do most white people want some black people to leave? Yes, especially illegal immigrants and those who come legally but then act in ways that are against the law. (continued)
TimMars66 3 years ago
Now let's have another go at clarifying this 'encouraging' business.
Do most people want to encourage at least some immigrants to leave? Yes.
But do we really want to encourage overseas students who bring millions of pounds into the Higher Education System to leave? Many Universities would have to be cut back without that funding?
Do we want to encourage highly specialised doctors and others to leave?
You see immigrants is such a complex concept.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Finally, for now, encourage always implies some motivation. I have friends who have moved to Australia, Nigeria and China. Did they want to go? Well, yes, but they also had factors encouraging them to stay. In each case it was some benefit of one option over another that led to the final move. You can only truly encourage someone to do something they have some motivation to do. Otherwise all you can do is force or coerce.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Now consider this quote from a scientific journal May 2007
"The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. . . (continued)
TimMars66 3 years ago
It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes."
You see all this is more complex that ignorant black and white thinking allows.
TimMars66 3 years ago
So your thinking hasn't moved on since Darwin's original work.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Hi Koksukay, thanks for posting that. It has let me research what you have said. Certainly a lot to think about. Could you post your original source for your data so I can look at it myself? Many thanks, Tim
TimMars66 3 years ago
"How can one huge city become majority non-white, since, as you claim, 90% of the population is WHITE, so every house that goes up for sale in Birmingham will have 9 times as many potential white buyers, as non-whites?"
Now this one is well below your usual standard. Immigrant focuses on key sites, as you know. Birmingham, London, Liverpool etc. Many other parts of the country are 99% white. Of course this means you have to consider details, not prejudice.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Once again, you fail to notice when you have won and argument. I have already agreed with you that the proportions of white victims of racial motivated crime shows that this is an issue that needs dealing with. I have said that I haven't posted nine similar crimes because I agree with you. Why do you find it so hard to accept that I agree with you?
TimMars66 3 years ago
OK, please, please listen so you don't have to say this again. I have already agreed with you that there is strong data that most people in this country want to reduce the 'immigrant' population. Please do not say that I "claim that most white people want to live around non-whites". All that proves is you don't read the posts you have respond to.
TimMars66 3 years ago
What facial features are shared by all Black Africans apart from skins colour. Oh yes, the hair, which is not like ape hair at all, it's curlier and thicker. All other features vary greatly across the continent so the only uniquely black feature is darker skin. That's why geneticist will tell you that the human population of Africa has a greater genetic variation than the rest of the species. Or am I missing something?
TimMars66 3 years ago
Another attempt. Koksukay, you protested at an Islamic School teaching children that Jews are invading Muslim countries. Are you the same Koksukay who posted his theories on Jews that were considerably stronger than that? Please answer 'yes' or 'no'.
TimMars66 3 years ago
So let me see if I understand you, all poor people are poor because they have scummy parents who don't read to them and watch Sky TV all day. Have I got that right?
TimMars66 3 years ago
As are you Nazis.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Could you do that. I tried having a go myself using Google, but decided as I found so easy to tell which were apes and which were people it wasn't very helpful. Maybe you can find better pictures.
TimMars66 3 years ago
And a final point for now. If you knew any biology you would know that convergent evolution allows very similar looking organisms to develop who share no recent ancestor, while divergent evolution allows closely related species to look very different. That's why science tries not to judge by external features only. But this is a waste of time because your mind is so closed that nothing will ever make you be anything other than what you already are.
TimMars66 3 years ago
So if black people called white people pigs because our skin colour is close to that of pigs than would make sense would it?
TimMars66 3 years ago
I notice Koksukay that you haven't answered whether you are the same Koksukay who wrote all those things about Jews, when you attack Muslims for attacking Jews.
You just can't admit your own level of hypocrisy.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Extreme racism doesn't help solve the problems of immigration or racial motivated crimes. You just don't get that, Koksukay.
TimMars66 3 years ago
You are of course true. Now let me answer. Let's take it as read that black people commit more crimes than white people in the UK. Therefore black people are more criminal, right? Now let's also assume that poor people commit more crimes than rich people. So poor people are more criminal, right? Now let's suppose that the social conditions that lead to more black people being poor are the same as those that lead to more poor people committing crimes. Does that make sense?
TimMars66 3 years ago
And what do you offer society?
TimMars66 3 years ago
You still do not get my main point. Judging by externals is often poor thinking. Tell you what, make a list of things that black people and white people have in common, now make a list of things all humans have in common with primates, then make a list of things that black people have in common with primates that white people do not. Notice anything? The first two lists are quite long. The third list contains just two things, darker skin and living in Africa. Make sense?
TimMars66 3 years ago
OK, fair question. Before the Black Death Europe was largely a feudal system. There were a few very powerful land-owners and pretty much everyone else lived effectively as slaves (serfs). After the Black Death there was a high demand for labour, if you didn't liked your current master you could up and work for someone else. This when trades, crafts and universities could exist with a freedom from feudal masters in urban centres.
Please notice this in not left wing, it's liberal free market.
TimMars66 3 years ago
How dreadful Koksukay, a Muslim textbook that says that Jews conspired against Islam. Awful, evil, hate filled.
BTW you wouldn't be the same Koksukay who wrote this 3 weeks ago?
"Yes, the poor, down-trodden Jews... Who runs America's Congress? What is AIPAC? Who owns 90% of the media? Who is behind the war on Iraq? Who wants to attack Iran? Who benefits? Who is behind the mass invasion of all white countries by non-white third world parasites in their millions? THE ETERNAL JEW."
TimMars66 3 years ago
Now of course no Christian would ever say that homosexuals are an abomination and should be locked up, or that it is permissible to killed doctors and nurses working in an abortion clinic?
Like I have said before, all races (and all religions) tend to have a share of people who are bend on violence and hatred.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Koksukay, can you explain where my point about the history of racial dominance is wrong? White people's dominant position in the world appears to owe much more to historical accident than biological superiority.
TimMars66 3 years ago
What you would have pointed out is that 'monkey' is not considered racist by many Indians. For them 'monkey' just means naughty or cheeky. In a West Indies v Australia Test match not so long ago this caused a fuss. An Indian played used the term monkey in this and was accused of racism. The trouble is it is the history of the use of te term that causes problems, and of course, ignorant racists like you.
TimMars66 3 years ago
You don't get it. That is the problem with racism. It judges on the vaguest external features.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Yes, I see the problem. Happy now?
TimMars66 3 years ago
You have done it again, haven't you? You have left my substantial comment about why your racist views don't fit with science or history and yet responded to a relatively trivial point that no-one likes being called a 'monkey'.
TimMars66 3 years ago
You are right, hilarious. Why might a black person think that three wise monkeys was referring to him? I don't know. How about a while guess that he has been taunted by ignorant racists with names like "gorilla" "ape" and "monkey" for years. Now that couldn't have anything to do with it.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Tell you what Koksukay, go into a local biker pub, find the biggest, whitest biker in the pub and call him a monkey. I bet he want be offended at all.
TimMars66 3 years ago
You see folks, Koksukay's views on the evolution of the races shows his ignorance. Go back between 1,000 and 1,500 years and do an imaginary world tour. Consider that racial differences probably began between 30,000-60,000 years ago. But even 1,000 years ago we see no superiority of any race. My best guess is then two things happened. 1) The Black Death killed 1/3 of the European population. This disrupted existing social structures and allowed many new structures to evolve.
(Continued)
TimMars66 3 years ago
In particular this allowed the rise of traders, artisans and intellectuals. The most efficient social structures competed and drove forward social evolution, what Pratchett et. al. call "extelligence" as opposed to intelligence. This set the scene for happening two.
2) The invention of the printing press with moveable type. This allowed rapid and cheap spread of knowledge. Secrets no longer had to be passed from Master to Novice, anyone could get a book and read it for themselves.
(Continued)
TimMars66 3 years ago
After something like 10,000 to 50,000 years of racial equality, suddenly a range of people groups, with similar external features and living in a defined geographical area were placed to dominate and conqueor most of the world within 300 years.
Notice a few things about this theory.
It explains observed facts concerning dates of events
It isn't based on biology
It isn't Marxist (it's more liberal free market)
It gives all people the freedom to create ethical solutions
Any comments?
TimMars66 3 years ago
You know Koksukay, I'm really enjoying this debate. All my friends and colleagues are liberals. Conversation like, "Racism's a terrible thing, isn't it?" "Yes, dreadful." are hardly stimulating. You have helped me recognise both that immigration is more of an issue that I had previously accepted, and that racial motivated murders (of white people) are a real issue that we haven't been addressing. So, thank you.
I still think racism and your arguments suck, but your facts are good. Keep talking.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Don't you read what I've written? Where did I claim that non-whites are no more likely to be murderers than whites? I've already stated that there are a disproportionately more non-whites committing racially motivated murderers than whites.
You are right about me having trouble keeping up. Doesn't the greater number of whites mean that even if it was random then blacks would commit more inter-racial murders than whites?
TimMars66 3 years ago
I love the way you keep arguing when I have already agreed with you. Hello, I'll say this one last time for the hard of thinking, most people in this country want to reduce the level of immigration and want to encourage immigrants to leave. Of course, we are left with the 'problem' of black people whose families have lived in the UK for over 100 years. Not exactly immigrants, are they?
TimMars66 3 years ago
"Who do you believe? Me or your own lying eyes" Hilarious! But I do see you problem. You judge by externals. Because black people have dark skins they must be closer to gorillas. That's called prejudice. To focus on a visible feature and judge everything else from there. Secondly, you don't understand the difference between 'common ancestor' and 'evolved from'.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Oh you moron, the BNP say they want the "introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question." Notice that, "voluntary", "opportunity" . So will someone 'voluntarily' take the 'opportunity' do what they don't want to do? What part of that don't you get?
TimMars66 3 years ago
All races are capable of acts of both great kindness and great evil. All races are capable of acts of creative genius and crass stupidity. Just posting lots of examples of one sort for one race proves nothing.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Why ten times as many when the population is smaller? You are making no sense here.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Once again, let me say where I agree with you. 2006 Home Office Stats show that about 42% of victims of racial motivated murders were white. Assuming that the perpetrator in each case was non-white (seems logical)this looks like an important issue that isn't being talked about. Why? Political correctness gone mad? Yes, partly. Because it will provoke the idiotic morons whose level of debate is to call black people gorillas? Absolutely. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Koksukay, I'm not really following your maths. If ethnic minorities compose 10-15% of the population, why should I find 10 crimes for every 1 of yours?
TimMars66 3 years ago
2 weeks ago you told me "The phrase "encourage someone to LEAVE" means something completely different to "HELP someone to LEAVE", and you know it". So please, can you clarify how you intend to 'encourage' people to leave if you will not help somone to leave?
TimMars66 3 years ago
That's not a code, it's an assumption. It's like me saying "he didn't have far rigth connections" is a code for saying he's white. It's a guess, and you attacked me for guessing, but more hypocrisy. I'm not surprised.
TimMars66 3 years ago
I have read the BNP manifesto, this is what it says "we call for . . . the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question." Well blow me, generous finacial incentives. Are you sure encourage and help aren't the same, or is it hypocrisy?
TimMars66 3 years ago
Stabbed to death by a gang of White youth as he returned home from work. In November 2001, a 15-year-old boy was found guilty of murder. Two others were convicted of manslaughter and a 16-year-old was convicted of perverting the course of justice. Police said the murder was 'purely' racial.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Zahid was the victim of a racist attack in his cell at Feltham Young Offenders Institute. He was just 12 hours from being released. The attack left Zahid with massive head injuries and he died five days later. His assailant was his cell mate, 19-year-old Robert Joseph Stewart, who was jailed for life for his murder.
TimMars66 3 years ago
A 17-year-old has been found guilty of murdering black student Anthony Walker, who was found with an axe in his head.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Fascinating what you don't answer.
1) Will you accept my bet about the BNP share of the vote at the next general election?
2) How do you know that the attacker at the Berlin Train station was black? (I am fully ready to accept he was once you give me the evidence.)
TimMars66 3 years ago
Again, I've already agreed with you, why keep saying it?
TimMars66 3 years ago
1) It wasn't racist. Germans are a different race.
2) Invasion by armed force with an organised plan of attack with the aim of conquest isn't the same as immigration from diverse parts of the world for mixed reasons.
3) Extreme racist and extreme anti-racist viewpoints make it impossible for the moderate middle to discuss sensible solutions.
4) Address push and pull factors is needed to solve the problem of mass immigration.
5) If you don't intend to us force, what are you suggesting?
TimMars66 3 years ago
My God, can't you read? I never offered to send you the money or asked you to send me the money. I don't want to tell you where I live any more than you want to tell me. I offered to give the BNP the money and asked you to give the Refugee Council the money.
Koksukay, face it. The BNP doesn't have 57% public support, and you know it, yet you still posted the data. If you believe it, take the bet, if not, please only use reliable data.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Right, let me see if I have got this right. Because the report said he was from an area of Berlin with a high immigrant population you have assumed he was non-white and his victims were all white. You have not seen a picture or read a name. He is described as German. Please tell me if you have any evidence to determine this lad's race, because I can't find any.
TimMars66 3 years ago
This is cut and pasted from Wikipedia. It doesn't say anything about his race. How do you know he was non-white?
It's funny that the many internet news reports at the time state clearly he had no far-rigth connections. Odd comment if he was black?
TimMars66 3 years ago
Koksukay, can't help noticing you haven't replied about the 30% figure for the black population.
Please understand, you have convinced me that a problem exists here where I didn't see one before. From your figures I think a more realistic figure is 12%. How that is as alarmist as 30%, but think about the implications. A 3% rise in 8 years means that we could be at 30% in somewhere round 40 years time. And beyond that? This is something that needs addressing.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Sorry, that should say "isn't as alarmist"
TimMars66 3 years ago
Come on Koksukay, if you are so sure BNP enjoy mass support, take the bet. If not, stop using such rubbish data.
TimMars66 3 years ago
I've finally found this poll. Koksukay, you'll be pleased to hear that the BNP how have 67% support. Just think, by the end of next week they'll have over 100% support if trends continue.
Tell you what, if BNP come third or better in the next General Election (no. of votes cast) I'll send them £100. If they come 4th or worse, you send the refugee council £10. Willing to trust this poll for a 1000% profit? Hmmmm
TimMars66 3 years ago
Koksukay, you are possibly revealing your true colours. You wish to oppose immmigration in the way we opposed Nazism, by armed force.
My God, the fact that you compare immigration to Nazism leaves me breathless. You cannot accept that to solve the problem of on-going immigration we must address why people leave their home countries as well as how we can encourage (and where necessary, compel) people to return. Any other response will end in either chaos or fascism.
TimMars66 3 years ago
"One of the most despicable crimes in the last 100 years." This probably wouldn't make my top 100 crimes. I can think of many a lot worse committed by peole of all races.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Yes, let's imagine that this was a white minor. First guess. Not the reaction of a sane person, therefore probably manslaughter. German sentence for manslaughter 5 to 15 years, so, yes, I guess 7 years is legal. We can argue about whether this is morally right, but this doesn't seem as if race was a factor. Plenty of white people get similar sentences in this country. I know of a case where a white person sexually assualted and murdered a 9 year old, and was released after about 20 years. Sick.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Of course, white children never tease or bully each other!
TimMars66 3 years ago
Full of hate? Yes, I hate racism, I hate violence, I hate intolerance, I hate prejudice. I just try my best not to hate people, even myself.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Koksukay, you really can't do the maths. To get from 9% in 2001 to 15% in 2008 by immigration you have to make someone highly improbably assumption. To get from this almost impossible figure to 30% in 7 years you have to assume that the black population of the country produced two babies for each member of the community, from new-borns to 100 year olds. Rough guess means that every black women the 16-40 years old age producing 16 babies in 7 years. Wow, I guess I missed that.
TimMars66 3 years ago
You really can't follow your own argument. You attacked me for picking on possible increase since 2001, I explained my thinking, and you change the argument again.
TimMars66 3 years ago
I just love this. Even when you are so close to winning someone over to your point of you you can't resist alienating them.
TimMars66 3 years ago
I'm now going to say something that I will probably hate myself for saying. If current trends continue then there will be increasing problems. There are two dangers that worry me. One is that it becomes so unacceptable to debate these facts that we sleep walk into problems. The second is that the debate gets taken over by racists. For God's sake let us not fall into "Deutschland erwache! Juda verrecke!"
TimMars66 3 years ago
Dear Koksukay, You said "Huh? What population? When did I say that?"
Let me recap. You implied that the ethnic minority pop could be 30%. I said in 2001 it was 9%. You gave figures for immigration and said it would have gone up since 2001. I did the maths, it gave a max of 15%, if you accepted some improbably givens. You said what about birth-rates. I suggested that 'immigrants' and settled minority populations have different birth rates, you said I was a cretin. Hope that clears things up.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Yes, I suspect. Why, because I will admit when I have no data. Look at the data you used. It's for foreign born women. That's my whole point. A settled population will be spread across all age groups (not many births to 8 or 80 year olds). 1st generation immigrants are disproportionately aged 18-40 years old, therefore have higher birth rates.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Here is a question I would really like you to answer Koksukay.
I live in Northampton. One of our most famous football player is Walter Tull. He was the first black footballer in the football league. He was born in 1888.
Here's my question, are his descentants 'immigrants' or 'British'?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
And here we see the psychological phenomena known as projection. YOU hate black people. You project this on the them. So in your own eyes you see the hate as theirs.
But why not go to my basic point. If we actively worked to improve conditions in places like Haiti (which you mentioned in another post) people what stay there and not come here, therefore much more effectively (and cheaply) solving the problem.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Birth rates, yes birth rates are higher for 1st generation immigrants. Why? Because most 1st generation immigrants are between 18 and 40, the age when people have kids. For established populations I suspect that the birth rates are pretty similar.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Oh my God, you can't follow your own arguments. You said that the population would have arisen since 2001 (& years ago), I was doing the maths on your argument, now you blame me for picking that date, I wonder who the Moron is?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
And a final point for now, I don't want to reduce the number of immigrants coming in, I what to reduce the number of emmigrants feeling that they have to leave their own country due to poverty, war and injustice. That is a win-win situation, although that may be an alien concept to you, like encouragement being a good thing and not being the same as force.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
I am white, and I'm proud to be white and British (although to be fair that is illogical as I didn't choose to be either). For some people their only pride comes from being better than others. To them, everything is a competition with winners and losers, goodies and badies. To me, I'm proud to be me, and I'm happy to let you be proud of who you are, as long as it doesn't harm the children or frighten the animals.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Oh Koksukay, not up to your usual standard of debate. Late night was it? I believe a free movement of people is good in an ideal world. But forced movement of people, due to war, oppression, or poverty is a bad idea. Why does this imply that I believe white people are any more or less evil than anyone else?
As for democracy, we are engaging in a free debate. Isn't that essential to democracy?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Dear Koksusay,
500000 for 7 years = 3500000. Theoretically this could give 15% tops, if
1) All immigrants are non-white. Really?
2) No immigrant ever returned home. Really?
I suspect you present these alarmist figures to stir up race hatred.
I am in favour of strong policing of our borders, asserive deportation of illegal immigrants, and active measures to improve conditions to stop people leaving their home countries. This is not racist, just common sense. You however?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Sorry folks, I've been replying as Jammay again. If you decide to reply can you please return to one of my posts as Jammay tends to get a bit p*ssed off my me replying on his account.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Koksukay, as you have had the courtesy to agree with me, I will return the favour. Having looked at the data I agree most people in this country want to reduce the number of immigrants coming in and want active measure to get immigrants to leave. No quibbles, no qualifications.
Jammay 3 years ago
This post shows typical racist hypocrisy. When we talk about anyone but immigrants we use encourage as a positive thing, and encouraging person, a source of encouragement, they encouraged me to keep trying. When applied to immigrants people know the coded language. It now means force, coerce, compel. It is the why the Nazis made they actions acceptable to an otherwise decent population. Whose slippery slope are we standing on?
Jammay 3 years ago
This post shows so clearly why poll data is such a poor source of info for arguing. The poll was done for YouGov, presumably using a standard format for avoiding bias, and was done for Sky, not BBC.
Jammay 3 years ago
I also think I might have worked out our problem with the word "encourage". I use the word in the way a parent might encourage their child to do something. You seem to use it in the way that kidnappers might encourage their victim's family to hand over money. Of course we have diffent understanding of the word. Can either of us know how people answering the poll would have taken it?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
In the 2001 census there were 9% of the population who described themselves as non-White. So where does Koksukay's "15%, 20%, 30%" come from? Yes, if the sample was truly random it was very unlikely to be 0%, but vanishly unlikley to be even 15%, unless it was so unrandom that the data is meaningless.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
So anyone who is reading this. For the second time I've posted comments under Jammay's name. This is because I didn't check to see if he was still logged in before I replied. Still, it's nice to know you agree with me Koksukay.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
I would encourage many immigrants (doctors, nurses, civil engineers, environmental scientists etc) to leave because I believe that their skills are better used to improve conditions in their home countries, thus reducing the factors that lead to people leaving their home countries in the first place.
Jammay 3 years ago
And bearing in mind that a significant proportion of the immigrant population also support the idea of limiting further immigration. Complicated, ain't it. That is why simple black/white solutions are such rubbish.
Jammay 3 years ago
You seem unable to accept the fact that almost all dictionary definitions of 'encourage' mention words like help, assist or support. But then, words like "resettlement", "special treatment" and "work will set you free" have all been redefined in the past by those with an agenda.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
OK Folks, let's hear what Koksukay isn't telling us about the poll he bangs on about.
52% of people opposed the suggestion that the government should encourage immigrants to leave. Notice this is oppose, they were also give the choice of neutral or support.
In the same poll only 16% of respondents said black people were inherently less British than white people.
On every single item polled support dropped when the policy was identified as a BNP policy.
Any comments, Kokusay?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Sorry Koksukay, I have just realised I didn't address the point you raised.
Either a) this is the kind of poll where people are given a Yes/No answer and asked to ring a different number to register their vote. In which case it is meaningless in terms of trying to know what the average person wants as people with strong views tend to vote more. Or b) this is a truly random poll and people are given a choice. Then I might say 'yes' to enocourage but 'no' to force, which only counts as a 'yes'.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
And please, finally, can I asnwer this point. The percentages you get in opinions polls vary massively with the question you ask and the audience you ask. The example I gave earlier was that 19% of Scots said they would support the break-up of the UK, while 41% said that they support the Scottish Parliament seeking to create and independent Scotland. Can you see why language is important? And why care needs to be taken when using poll data in arguments?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
OK, so maybe I redefine language. I know, let's look it up in a Dictionary. The Oxford Dictionary of English defines 'encourage' as "give support, confidence, or hope to someone Give support and advice so that they will do or continue to do something, help to stimulate an activity."
Of course I realise that the dictionary may have been written by Marxists. Or perhaps I do understand English and it is you who wishes to twist English for your own purposes.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
So what kind of encouragement do you think they had in mind? A polite smile and a 'please'. I really don't see the difference between encourage, help, assist, support, facilitate or a load of other words. Could you explain the difference?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Do you know it never occured to me that the mention of excluding might be taken as a threat. That was pretty stupid of me to not reason that. The only reason I mention if was your implication that for some reason I couldn't bring myself to talk about 'it'. I simply wanted to let you know that if I really didn't want to talk about it why would I keep replying?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
And Koksukay, about your jibe about not being able to bring myself to talk about it, remember, I posted this video and have the ability to exclude you from posting on this video. I don't because I believe that debate is better than censorship.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Is people groups politically correct? I have no idea. I just know that pretending that all white people or all black people are the same is clear rubbish. "People group" means any group of people who are bonded by shared history for example living in the same area. It just seemed a better name than race. I think I made it up, but I might have heard it and liked the phrase. Sorry if it caused confusion, and I hope I have clarified it.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
So the fact that replying to you isn't the most important thing in my life means I can't bring myself to talk about it. How egotistical is that!
You clearly don't read my posts. See the one I wrote earlier about the % of people who support Scottish independence.
I'd quite like the government to consider ways to help immigrants leave the UK. I'd also like to reduce the factors that force people to leave their own countries. Seems like it would be a fairer world all round then.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
I think land mass possibly plays a small part in success of certain people groups, and yes, I also believe that historical accidents also play a part. More influenial is the current lack of civic government in some parts of the world. Ever wondered why Canada has a crime rate so much lower than the US? One theory is that in Canada state forces preceded settlers, therefore people looked to democratic institutions to solve problems and didn't take the law into their own hands.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
And let's make one last point. What percentage of men, black or white commit rape? Most men don't rape, regardless of race.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
Like I said, no reasonable debate is possible with a mind so full of hate. You won't even consider the possibility that your views are based on biased, self-selecting data.
While we are dealing with data consider this fact. 19% of Scots agreed that they would support the break-up of the UK, while 41% agreed that the Scottish Parliament should seek to create an Independent Scotland. So how many Scots want independence? Opinion polls are a very poor source of data.
Jammay 3 years ago
Can I just clarify that the comment from Jammay was accidentally posted by me, I didn't realise someone else was already logged on to You Tube.
TimMars1966 3 years ago
OK, let's try a quick test. I think that the point you make about why some countries are such awful places to live and why we can't shelter all the world's poor and needy is a reasonable point. We can debate it.
Do you accept that your posts suggest that the vast majority of black people are sub-85 IQ rapists and murderers and all white people are noble and democratic may be blind prejudice not fact?
TimMars1966 3 years ago
I have nothing to say, you astounded me with your retort. It is a testament to your intellect that you posted it. I was clearly mistaken in how I believed one should sight evidence, clearly all that is need is capitals e.g:SURVEY, followed by a generalisation -- 'that was reported in all the newspapers'. Yet I did note the irony with which you answered my question -- 'why argue so aggressively?' -- 'you moron' all that was missing was the exclamation mark, yet maybe the point was self-reflective
GeudoSanches 3 years ago
I thought long before replying to you koksukay. I suspect you are so full of your own opinions that no debate is possible.
What about the violence perpetrated by both sides in the English Civil War on women and children? Every read what British soldiers did in Korea? (Abu Ghraib comes to mind.) Evil is a potential in all humans when society isn't strong enough to contain it. Compare what Salaman did when he retook Jerusalem to what the white crusader did when they captured it.
TimMars66 3 years ago
It's sad that videos such as this somehow attract people with savage political and social views; usually attempting to aggressively make their point heard by verbally belittling everyone else, while also desperately attempting to legitimise their abstract arguments with lines such as '50% of people believe...' Why argue so aggressively? Why use statistics with absolutely no sources or evidence?
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." Frank Zappa
GeudoSanches 3 years ago 3
Thank you for your comment. I couldn't agree with you more.
TimMars66 3 years ago
Koksukay has a point about evolutionary development.
Just look at the BNP supporters, knuckle dragging, boneheaded idiots who may just one day advance enough to catch up with Neanderthal Man.
Very good at maths though I'll give you that, Millions of BNP supporters, that's very difficult to argue with, I wouldn't be surprised if you're the majority party by about 2009.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...
andyjbb 3 years ago
You may not like Bragg's politics or his humour, but his comment "you make me sick" was taken in good humour by the audience. His opening comment to a largely Christian audience was "Trust your lot to get the good weather!" He spoke with warmth and respect in the set and was well received. The fact that you think someone, anyone is a "sad excuse of a human being" reveals more about your values that it does about Bragg. But then, the BNP is full of people who think others are less than human.
TimMars1966 3 years ago 3
"You didn't see many BLACKS in the audience."
Funny, I don't see many red haired people or blond people, or black haired people in the audience. In fact the light is so bad I can't make out the skin colour of the audience at all. But then I guess I don't have a desire to project race into a nice of fun music that the audience weren't offended by.
TimMars1966 3 years ago 3
Why would Billy Bragg want his own political party? He supports the Lib Dems. You're fixated with skin colour. This is footage from one gig. Who knows who was in the audience, and frankly, who cares. And the only muppets are members/supporters of the racist BNP. So I hope you're not one of them.
oclandestin 3 years ago 2
Nick Griffin and his ilk aren't worth "debating" with. There's nothing to debate with racists. They already lack basic common sense. The BNP is a tiny fringe group of extremists. There are far more important people to be concerned about.
oclandestin 3 years ago
Why would Billy Bragg want to "debate" with Nick Griffin? Not even mainstream politicians want to talk to Nick Griffin, so why would a musician? Most rational people want to ignore the racist garbage of the BNP.
oclandestin 3 years ago
Billy Bragg is a very successful musician, and I hate to say it, but in the current proprty market, a million pounds for a house is not a big deal if you're reasonably well-off. He moved to Dorset because it's a beautiful part of the country, not to escape multiculturalism. If Dorset had more ethnic minorities, it certainly wouldn't put him off. There's nothing wrong with having a middle class lifestyle while supporting the working classes.
oclandestin 3 years ago
Who would choose the Carpenters over Dylan?!
oclandestin 3 years ago
Excellent Great man
franklymike 4 years ago
bragg's voice is what? that's his style of singing. If you want justin timberlake then don't listen.
seamus66 4 years ago 3
as much as i love billy bragg, he killed one of my favourite songs in dont think twice. oh well still a legend in my eyes.
gazzaBOY92 4 years ago
Wait a sec... he's playing an ACOUSTIC guitar?
bobfenster 4 years ago
@bobfenster
I've seen him 6 or 7 times and he's been acoustic at least half of the time.
vchele 4 years ago
Must be a recent development because I've seen him about 12 times over the years -- from the Internationale tour to the William Bloke tour -- and he never once touched an acoustic. As most of my favorite singer-songwriters are acoustic-based I welcome it.
bobfenster 4 years ago
i think you should learn the meaning of the word comparison - i wasn't suggesting that "bill" was seeking to challenge sonic youth. Also, instead of timbre, maybe wooden is a better choice of word to describe that nasal chalk onna blackboard
skiverboo 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
much prefer sonic youth's carpenters cover - straightahead and no self-regarding "irony". It made me consider the song again. The Dylan cover is shite. Bragg's voice has no timbre
skiverboo 4 years ago
I don't think Bill was doing the cover as a challenge to Sonic Youth's version. It was a one off joke of a version. You should learn the meaning of timbre before you use the word. The tone of Billy's voice might not be your thing, but it has timbre!
n172ar 4 years ago
billy made the dylan song a very "braggian" song. But I like both of them at the same time. Yes, that's possible.
unebelette 4 years ago
Ah! I took a video at the same time, but mine cut off in the middle of the Dylan song. I'm so glad you got this too!
3633421 4 years ago
Many thanks, it was a great piece of entertainment. So glad I could fill in the gap.
TimMars66 4 years ago
I was there!!!!!He was brill - wat a gr8 festival of rock!
wickedbardy 4 years ago
was a great show... the singing was a lot quieter in reality.. hes a funny guy thought....
jimsmbob 4 years ago
Not abad effort at the Carpenters number, eh? Must admit, much preferred Don't Think Twice, It's Alright meself, though.
mcbumferty 4 years ago
Get the feeling Billy would agree with you!
TimMars66 4 years ago