dear sonsofthunderpub please help me understand this lol. I desperately want to understand this as i have seen extremes of both sides of a Calvinist and an Armenian prospective. If we arent choosing and God isnt electing us then how exactly is it that we are being saved?
@neonleonification I believe the confusion lies in what saved really means. Christ died for EVERYONE. We are ALL forgiven. We are ALL holy, perfect and blameless no matter what we do, what we believe or what we know. If we accept that Christ ALREADY saved us then we experience the freedom that we ALREADY have. It's like someone who can't swim and he thinks he's drowning in a puddle. If he finally realizes he's not drowning then he's not but if he doesn't then he might as well be drowning.
I think the issue of faith has always been overcomplicated. The simpler we keep Faith, the better it is, this has always been the stumbling block. Faith is a Gift, its Found in the person of Christ. And maybe this is where the church has it wrong like you said, The real issue people need to understand that its not faith that saves, but that Faith or Trust rather...In the Finished works of Jesus, is ultimately what saves us. Everything has and points to Christ, and his finished works of the Cross
Wow JOhn - I never saw it that way - how our election & predestination is rooted in GOD's election & predestination of His Son CHRIST being the Chosen One! Thank you for that insight. By the way, I don't know if you did this or not, but I sure would like to have seen and heard you confronting (in love, grace & patience of course) your opponents in Sheffield - not to debate or prove anything, but perhaps to clear up any confusion. Of course that might not make any difference.....
What do you do with Jesus' sayings where people would come to him and touch him or cut holes in roofs and what not and Jesus would say things like "your faith has saved you"?
@marksciencehale I think in those cases he was referencing healing and not so much being "saved" in the context we now use it. In some translations it says, "your faith has made you well." In that sense, what Crowder is saying would support a statement like that. Christ never specifies whether it is just a generic optimism in the outcome or if specifically it is faith in HIMSELF and his ABILITY to save them that brings healing but that would be the implication.
Great Stuff John! One question though: wasn't Adam created perfect? Everything in him was biased towards righteousness. It was because the first Adam broke the covenant of works that God had established, that the second Adam would come, fulfil the covenant of works by living a sinless life 'under the law' and become the new federal head of humanity. That is why those who are in Christ are utterly blameless because of HIS works. Deniers insist on remaining under Adam's curse defined by works. :P
Also, why is it bad to use logic to think through what the Bible says ( 7:10)? If the Bible says that salvation is through no choice of our own, then isn't the next logical question is "Why do some people get saved and not others?" Why is it bad to use logic here? I feel like wondering why some people get saved but not others (if our will has nothing to do with it) is a pretty legitimate question, no?
@zwalk86 Those are very good questions. Not that I have the official answers but, like john crowder, I believe that Jesus saved us all through his grace but, unlike john, I believe that eventually everyone will come to know this reality in their own time. I guess you could call that universalism but really the only difference between what I'm saying and what John is saying is that I think everyone in the end will open their eyes to the reality of grace. Of course that is only my speculation.
@zwalk86 I hope that answers your second question. And as far as the first question goes I would like to quote something from the book The Shack by William Paul Young. God the father: "It is not my job to punish sin. It is my joy to cure it." I believe when you think of Judgment you're thinking of it in a negative sense. But I believe that their is a strong purpose for God's judgment. It is to help us see past our pseudo-reality and to free us from our slavery to the sin that binds us.
I'm having trouble understanding two things... can someone help explain? John says that God chooses us and our salvation has nothing to do with us. If that is so, then why are we held accountable when we die for something God didn't do in our lives (helping us believe)?
Thank you for this mind freak of an awesome true message, if it offends its probably the real true goodies!!! yum yum more good free stuff we can't take credit for, can't buy, just gotta receive it for free! yay! free drunken goodies!!!
He seems to deny the idea of "Election" from the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love :5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,...He also seems to deny God's sovereignty or decrees in suffering.... and I'm guessing from the video that he holds the error of "Unlimited Atonement" also.....
@rbmath Actually I may believe in election MORE than you. LOL ... at least I understand it now. God was not making arbitrary decrees in the beginning "I choose this one ... I don't choose that one." I have a Christocentric understanding of the Bible (not a me-centric understanding). He wasn't making arbitrary decrees of this one vs. that one. CHRIST is the decree of the Father!
@rbmath cont'd ... In the beginning, the Father chose CHRIST. Christ is the "Elect" one. Christ is the "Chosen" one. Christ is the "Predestined" one. You mentioned Eph. 1 - one of my fav chapters by the way - notice we are elect "in Him," we are chosen "in Him," we are predestined "in Him," and adopted "in Him." He is the chosen Messiah. We are participating in HIS election, not our own. Peace!
@rbmath This is not armenian unlimited atonement (he saves everyone but YOU have to choose Him). And it's not federal calvinism's limited atonement (he really only died for the few elect). This is true unlimited atonement - found in Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5:18-19, and a host of other passages - God was in Christ reconciling ALL to himself. This is not "universalism" but the atonement is definitely universal.
Hitting a lot of nails on the head John! God's goodness is the ONLY active agent, Faith is a proof of that goodness. Too good to be true, wonderful, lovely Jesus. Religion is against all the thousands good scriptures that say Jesus concurred sin, righteousness and judgment.
basically what John did in the video was knock religious lies in the head of any effort and rules and regulations, and social clubs needed for eternal life. Jesus gave it to you and gives you life right now. Pretty simple, no effort needed.
God cut a covenant with Jesus! John ( the disciple whom Jesus loved ) was the only one who stuck around through the crucifiction, the others split b/c they were relying on THEIR love for HIM ( not his love for them ).
Holy shackalacka-bonky I love you! Thanks!
Gonamez 4 months ago in playlist Flere videoer fra SonsofThunderPub
dear sonsofthunderpub please help me understand this lol. I desperately want to understand this as i have seen extremes of both sides of a Calvinist and an Armenian prospective. If we arent choosing and God isnt electing us then how exactly is it that we are being saved?
neonleonification 5 months ago
@neonleonification I believe the confusion lies in what saved really means. Christ died for EVERYONE. We are ALL forgiven. We are ALL holy, perfect and blameless no matter what we do, what we believe or what we know. If we accept that Christ ALREADY saved us then we experience the freedom that we ALREADY have. It's like someone who can't swim and he thinks he's drowning in a puddle. If he finally realizes he's not drowning then he's not but if he doesn't then he might as well be drowning.
MichaelSethKendall 4 months ago
I think the issue of faith has always been overcomplicated. The simpler we keep Faith, the better it is, this has always been the stumbling block. Faith is a Gift, its Found in the person of Christ. And maybe this is where the church has it wrong like you said, The real issue people need to understand that its not faith that saves, but that Faith or Trust rather...In the Finished works of Jesus, is ultimately what saves us. Everything has and points to Christ, and his finished works of the Cross
WilteredFire 5 months ago
Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
Thank you for this.
MrTydelik 5 months ago
Wow JOhn - I never saw it that way - how our election & predestination is rooted in GOD's election & predestination of His Son CHRIST being the Chosen One! Thank you for that insight. By the way, I don't know if you did this or not, but I sure would like to have seen and heard you confronting (in love, grace & patience of course) your opponents in Sheffield - not to debate or prove anything, but perhaps to clear up any confusion. Of course that might not make any difference.....
chapwesi 5 months ago
Great Word John.... blessings to you and the increase of the revelations of Jesus Christ and freedom be upon all that you do!
patrickholmstos 6 months ago
What do you do with Jesus' sayings where people would come to him and touch him or cut holes in roofs and what not and Jesus would say things like "your faith has saved you"?
marksciencehale 6 months ago
@marksciencehale I think in those cases he was referencing healing and not so much being "saved" in the context we now use it. In some translations it says, "your faith has made you well." In that sense, what Crowder is saying would support a statement like that. Christ never specifies whether it is just a generic optimism in the outcome or if specifically it is faith in HIMSELF and his ABILITY to save them that brings healing but that would be the implication.
chrisanthemum7 5 months ago
AMAZING
1LAJesusGRL 6 months ago
Check out 'Introducing Covenant Theology' - Michael Horton, Baker Publishing. Lotta Glory on it, a lotta glory LOL!
WotchDis 6 months ago
Great Stuff John! One question though: wasn't Adam created perfect? Everything in him was biased towards righteousness. It was because the first Adam broke the covenant of works that God had established, that the second Adam would come, fulfil the covenant of works by living a sinless life 'under the law' and become the new federal head of humanity. That is why those who are in Christ are utterly blameless because of HIS works. Deniers insist on remaining under Adam's curse defined by works. :P
WotchDis 6 months ago
Also, why is it bad to use logic to think through what the Bible says ( 7:10)? If the Bible says that salvation is through no choice of our own, then isn't the next logical question is "Why do some people get saved and not others?" Why is it bad to use logic here? I feel like wondering why some people get saved but not others (if our will has nothing to do with it) is a pretty legitimate question, no?
zwalk86 6 months ago
@zwalk86 Those are very good questions. Not that I have the official answers but, like john crowder, I believe that Jesus saved us all through his grace but, unlike john, I believe that eventually everyone will come to know this reality in their own time. I guess you could call that universalism but really the only difference between what I'm saying and what John is saying is that I think everyone in the end will open their eyes to the reality of grace. Of course that is only my speculation.
MichaelSethKendall 6 months ago
@zwalk86 I hope that answers your second question. And as far as the first question goes I would like to quote something from the book The Shack by William Paul Young. God the father: "It is not my job to punish sin. It is my joy to cure it." I believe when you think of Judgment you're thinking of it in a negative sense. But I believe that their is a strong purpose for God's judgment. It is to help us see past our pseudo-reality and to free us from our slavery to the sin that binds us.
MichaelSethKendall 6 months ago
I'm having trouble understanding two things... can someone help explain? John says that God chooses us and our salvation has nothing to do with us. If that is so, then why are we held accountable when we die for something God didn't do in our lives (helping us believe)?
zwalk86 6 months ago
Comment removed
zwalk86 6 months ago
Thank you for this mind freak of an awesome true message, if it offends its probably the real true goodies!!! yum yum more good free stuff we can't take credit for, can't buy, just gotta receive it for free! yay! free drunken goodies!!!
1stormyJ 6 months ago
Comment removed
Parakupto 6 months ago
'Mystical Celebrity Monk' ha ha!
WotchDis 6 months ago
i love this guy
theresnoaudio 6 months ago
He seems to deny the idea of "Election" from the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love :5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,...He also seems to deny God's sovereignty or decrees in suffering.... and I'm guessing from the video that he holds the error of "Unlimited Atonement" also.....
rbmath 6 months ago
@rbmath Actually I may believe in election MORE than you. LOL ... at least I understand it now. God was not making arbitrary decrees in the beginning "I choose this one ... I don't choose that one." I have a Christocentric understanding of the Bible (not a me-centric understanding). He wasn't making arbitrary decrees of this one vs. that one. CHRIST is the decree of the Father!
SonsofThunderPub 6 months ago 3
@rbmath cont'd ... In the beginning, the Father chose CHRIST. Christ is the "Elect" one. Christ is the "Chosen" one. Christ is the "Predestined" one. You mentioned Eph. 1 - one of my fav chapters by the way - notice we are elect "in Him," we are chosen "in Him," we are predestined "in Him," and adopted "in Him." He is the chosen Messiah. We are participating in HIS election, not our own. Peace!
SonsofThunderPub 6 months ago 3
@rbmath This is not armenian unlimited atonement (he saves everyone but YOU have to choose Him). And it's not federal calvinism's limited atonement (he really only died for the few elect). This is true unlimited atonement - found in Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5:18-19, and a host of other passages - God was in Christ reconciling ALL to himself. This is not "universalism" but the atonement is definitely universal.
SonsofThunderPub 6 months ago 4
@rbmath did you watch this video?? He says it a few different times..
Weallfart 6 months ago
@Weallfart .... Yes. I watched the video...
rbmath 6 months ago
Great points 4 all Christians. My faith, my works, my choice, my free will, ... my illusions :D
behumble4God 6 months ago
Hitting a lot of nails on the head John! God's goodness is the ONLY active agent, Faith is a proof of that goodness. Too good to be true, wonderful, lovely Jesus. Religion is against all the thousands good scriptures that say Jesus concurred sin, righteousness and judgment.
SShanez 6 months ago
"if your drunk or if your lazy" LOL
philmoore97 6 months ago
Love it John! Faith becomes even more valuable when placed in its proper context.
andreebar 6 months ago
OMG get the hell out of my head. Revelation stealer. we are on the same wave length or something.its amazing how uncanny this is.
TheHolyGhostGuy 6 months ago
im not religious or nothing but i feel the positivity. be positive.
exxmodel 6 months ago 5
@exxmodel haha, you're better off without religion for sure.
benhorakable 6 months ago
basically what John did in the video was knock religious lies in the head of any effort and rules and regulations, and social clubs needed for eternal life. Jesus gave it to you and gives you life right now. Pretty simple, no effort needed.
benhorakable 6 months ago
Shakalaka bonky! That is what I talking about!
DJTripleThreat78 6 months ago
God cut a covenant with Jesus! John ( the disciple whom Jesus loved ) was the only one who stuck around through the crucifiction, the others split b/c they were relying on THEIR love for HIM ( not his love for them ).
MegaHotHands 6 months ago 5
Comment removed
MegaHotHands 6 months ago