Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
Enjoyed all 7 of these, thanks. I learned a lot about both the subjects and how to conduct oneself in public speaking. I presume that none present would have thought that this man, in reasonably good health and certainly good humour, would be dead less than 3 years later. Hitchens is mentioned in my own upcoming new book, 'Parecomic', about left wing activist Michael Albert. I was hoping to have some contact with him later, but, unless he emails from heaven (!), there is little chance of that.
Life determines consciousness, thus religion can't cause war. Ideologically, religion may play a role in war, having being embraced in uniting some people against others. Primarily, religion is a way through which to grasp our material existence, and can be equally embraced as much for liberation as for oppression. The way in which religion is embraced stems from interpretations inseparable from resolving our crisis-ridden existence. Capitalism thus contributes to war, religion is secondary.
@stephenfs03 Really excellent comments on religion, capitalism and the true cause of wars.
There are few things more irksome than watching Hitchens describe Putin's Russia as though it were a theocracy, and implicating Christianity for the problems of Tsarist Russia.
@historypoliticsbb, thanks for your support against Hitchens. Coming onto something like a Channel like this (pro-Hitchens) can feel quite isolating and alienating with what I'd describe as a very right-wing/postmodernist deflective 'discourse'. I checked out your site, looks great, and I much admire Chomsky and his greatness. The more recent Hitchens on politics and religion leaves much to be desired (perhaps his literary ramblings can have sense?, but his religious/politicism is askewed.
Basically, "Hitchens" is irrelevant to most on the planet with the exception of a relatively small (though voracious) clique of esoteric "cultured" beings who are under the illusion of being well-informed. Most people won't waste too much time arguing with his supporters when there's real democratic processes emerging in places like Egypt, Wall Street, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece etc. encompassing people of varying beliefs uniting against a common enemy. Religion DOESN'T cause war and hatred.
As a Jew, an Israeli and someone who sees the rise of Muslim fundamentalism as a world problem , not caused by the Jewish presence in its ancestral land (unlike what Mr Hitchens claims to be) but as a menace that need to be crushed before it engulfs the democracies of the globe, I still like this video.
@deavman I think we should be supporting the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign against the Israeli state and its compliant institutions. Not sure what your view on that would be, given that you're Israeli, and may be ostracised if speaking out against Israel's attrocities. Some non-Zionist Israeli's have spoken out though they're not very popular amidst what's currently a very fanatically right-wing skewed Israeli opinion. BDS holds the prospect of equality with Palestinians.
@stephenfs03 I can't say anything that will change your mind.So I won't even try. In some way I can see why you feel that way. You are a victim of anti-Israel propaganda, in your situation I probably would feel the same. BDS will not help anything as long as it is not balanced by holding the other side (the Palestinian Arabs) to certain standards... I am NOT holding my breath, though.
Maybe the arabs should just leave the land to the Jews for a few months, then when no messiah shows up everyone will see how ridiculous the whole thing is and get on with their lives.
I couldn't care less on whether God exists or not. In reality it's the economic dynamics of captalism that is in part primarily having immediate implications upon the well-being of humanity, not what we contextually create in our heads. Democratic revolutionary processes in Egypt and Tunisia have contradicted the idea that religion is inherently undemocratic. Islam is potentially no less democratic than any other religious creed. The material fabric underpinning society is much more important.
@stephenfs03 On capitalism, would you not say that China's growing acceptance of capitalism has encouraged cooperation with western nations, therefore decreasing the chance of conflict between the two largest world powers and, possibly, avoiding a genuinely apocalyptic (probably nuclear) war?
@hungryman211 firstly, China has never been a socialist country. Their state has only recently come to accept a partially more liberal capitalism vis-a-vis the more centrally planned capitalism under Mao. I'm not sure what "cooperation" means in the context of NATO (and it's allies) policies of Chinese containment as evident in say the imperialist war in Afghanistan and stationing of US troops in Darwin. Religious beliefs are no barrier to democracy as Egypt testifies, contradicting Hitchens.
@stephenfs03 Firstly, I suggest you look up the term "Socialism with Chinese characteristics". This should tell you the story of China's reformation from a state-controlled financial system to the current semi-capitalist system which Deng Xiaoping implemented in the late 70's and has led to an extreme decline in the poverty of individuals and growth of the nation.
Secondly, "Religion DOESN'T cause war and hatred.", is one of the most blindly ridiculous statements ever.
@hungryman211 whether it's Mao or "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" it's still all capitalism. China is no more capitalist today than under Mao. Mao maintained in China a state-controlled capitalism. Deng allowed more market freedom. Poverty is still rampant in China today and as such will exist whether it's under Mao's state capitalism or today's more liberated capitalism. Religion is an idea and idea's don't cause war. Idea's come into existence in trying to grasp our material condition
Why did God create people like Hitchens and Dawkins? Are free thinkers going to hell? God chose Bush to have his Godley greatness but them to to damnation.
Never talks the same puffed-up nonsense twice! Always new rubbish. You have to love guys like these who are so self-regarding and yet spiritually empty. Hitchens and Dawkins will NEVER begin to understand God unless God decides to impart spiritual knowledge to them. Hitchens and Dawkins will laugh at this suggestion - after all they could never accept any greater creator than themselves.! They clearly have no understanding of God's word!
@hungryman211 Good comment! We are all able to understand God's word if we are open to hearing it. As the bible says, he is constantly knocking at the door waiting for us to let him in. When we think we are very smart then we ignore that knocking and are convinced we can do everything ourselves - we can't! When we admit that we need God's help and that we don't have all the answers, we can open the door and let him in.
Another Point: If Zionism was so repugnant and outrages in Islamic eyes. How come Turkish Empire Allowed Zionism to establish and flourish since 1880 until 1917? Hertzel and other famous Zionist leaders meet with the Turkish Sultan. Tel-Aviv, the first Hebrew City was established in 1905 with Turkish blessing. Turkish Empire had sharia law and not so European secular state. 30+ years was not enough to reject Zionism for the Turkish leaders? Can any one comment on that?
The Turkish Ottoman empire was a relatively safe place for Jews to settle (2nd class citizenship being greatly preferable to outright persecution) and Jews did fairly well in Palestine under Ottoman rule.
But the Ottomans did not support the self-determination of Jews or the idea of an independent and autonomous Jewish state. (they didn't support an Arab state either). But the empire was simply not strong enough to hold back the tides of nationalism (Jewish or Arab).
@citizenghosttown True that the Turkish empire was not that strong but Zionist leaders were not shy about their goals or ambitions. Also true that the Turks were not thrilled about Zionism but as a dominant Islamic state they didn't saw any particular problem when Jews invest huge amount of money on a backward part of the Empire. My point was that Zionism was not considered a menacing and powerful enemy to Islam, What Hitchens talks about is new narrative that emerged in 1950 and later.
Sure Zionism wasn't seen as a particularly great threat to the Turks. After all, nationalism was springing up all over the empire and the real threats to Ottoman power came from other empires - Russia, Britain etc.
But Zionism was identified as a threat fairly early on by Palestinian Arabs who had their own nationalist aspirations.
But sure, Zionism wasn't seen as a powerufl threat to the larger Muslim world until it actually succeeded (1948) and then grew strong (1967).
@citizenghosttown Interesting point: Before 1948, Jews and Arabs saw themselves as Palestinians! Zionist movement created a bank called Anglo-Palestina, today this is a major bank called Leumi (second in its size). So no surprising to learn that the partition plan of 1948 talked about Jewish and Arab state. Why this insight matter? That's how you learn the evolution of Palestinian identity. Before 1948 being Palestinian was not a political or ethnic matter, only geographical.
By the way, while I mostly agree with Hitchens here, I think his criticism of "Zionism" is too strong for a different reason. The fact is that for Jews seeking self-determination - something that Hitchens says he supports for all peoples - there simply weren't any better options on the table in the late 19th century and early part of the 20th century. Dhimmitude or Statehood. Which would HE choose?
@citizenghosttown About self determination for Jews. Just don't raise this idea on US campuses. When some Israeli bashes talk about Israel, they renounce the Jewish right for self determination, by criticizing the idea of national state as obsolete and chauvinistic. But then, they glorify the creation of other national state: Palestine. I found it impossible to educate them on inherent contradiction of this dual statement. If there is not place for national state, why support Palestine?
I agree completely that it's absurd and contradictory to be opposed to a Jewish state and advocate for an Islamic state in Palestine or anywhere else.
Even Hitchens, is not entirely consistent here. He advocates for Kurdish self-determination and the establishment of a Kurdish state. But this of course would be an Islamic State. (like the newly created Iraq & Afghanistan) Not a theocracy (one would hope) but still a state where Islam is privileged and the official religion.
@citizenghosttown I really like Hitchens but on some issues he is not that sharp, such as Israeli-Arab conflict. Although his critique is above everything i read from foreign journalist. Still it bother that he doesn't pay attention to details or he prefers to summarize it in favor of winning debate? He did know the difference between Israel and Iran and doesn't allow himself to be dragged to Israeli haters groups. Our little discussion proves that the issue is more complicated than he said.
@Mishkafofer I also wonder may be i am to biased because i am an Israeli. But then again when you close to event geographically and chronologically, you develop sensitivity. But i don't blame Hitchens for being stupid, he visited numerous places and involved in many issue, Arab-Israeli issue is not pivotal to him, at least that my impression, most videos about him on Youtube deal with religion.
To the extent you have a "bias" it is understandable. The events in question are closer to home and affect you more directly. In some ways that is an advantage for your perspective - in other ways it is a disadvantage.
I agree that some of Hitchens criticisms of Zionism seem superficial. It's as if he is still the street fighter from the "old left" who instinctively sides with the downtrodden. But for the most part, he's clear, fair and insightful - in my view.
@citizenghosttown I remember video were one lady in the crowd (Iranian) tried to compare Iran and Israel. Although HItchens is not Israel supporter, he quickly put that lady in place. I also liked that he not impressed with current Turkish government. But that is "He is on our side" type of analysis, and he is not, in most part he is honest journalist who don't afraid to change his mind when he got new facts so i don't label Hitchens as anti Israeli, not like some BBC type of people (brrrrr).
@Mishkafofer Did i mentioned i hate Youtube message system. You cannot track the discussion. This system is not designed for long correspondence Another point in Hitchens favor: In another video, he talked about messianic Rabbies in the West bank, so it seems he understands the difference about different religious groups but in this particular video, he seems generalizing too much. But then again this is not University lecture ,he needs to summarize.
@citizenghosttown Onother point: Zionist Leaders such as Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsly and Hertzel were not Rabbis or Torah citing fanatics. So when Hitchens talks about Messianic Jewish invasion, he talks about the latest wave of Zionism that started in 1970. On the other side Arab leadership that opposed Israel, was secular such as Hafez Asad, Natzer, Saddam Hussain. Not exactly devoted Islamic Imams.
I agree that the Messianic strain decried by Hitchens didn't really get going until after 1967 with the Settler movement
But even though the original Zionists and founders of Israel were secularists (and pragmatists) they were not above stoking these Messianic fires. Ben Gurion talked about the bible as a divine deed granting land to the Jews. So even though HE was a secularist, the embrace of this founding narrative helped make the Messianic craziness possible.
@citizenghosttown Hitchens wrote about Ben-Gurion and archeological excavation in Israel and Sinai. Israeli archeologist didn't found all the historical evidence for the bible and were honest about it. Hitchens wrote that this was an honest move. Before we judge Israel as messianic loonivile, its worth mentioning San-Remo agrrement of 1920, Balfour declaration 1917 and the British mandate that talked openly about "Jewish Home" (too careful not to mention independent state for political reasons).
@citizenghosttown So even before you judge Ben-Gurion as Jewish pseudo religious nut job, it worth while to ponder why the league of nation agreed about Jewish homeland in San-Remo agreement and allowed British mandate. Ben Gurion was not talking on empty space here. By the way i had ugly discussions about this issue on Youtube. Mostly it ended with optimistic message of wishing massacre and death to Jews in Israel.
Oh, I don't think Ben Gurion was a religious nut job. Far from it - he was secular, pragmatic and inspirational.
But I agree with the basic point Hitchens makes. That when you found a state as a "Jewish State" and, more particularly, when you build this founding on a narrative about the fulfillment of a Divine Plan, you are paving way for the sort of Messianic movements we are seeing. As sensible Israelis know all too well, it's tough to bottle that up once it's out.
@citizenghosttown About Ben-Gurion. Well that's the Jewish narrative. I don't find it shameful or derogatory. But to continue i need you to clarify what "Jewish" means to you: Religion or National identity or both. By the way, Some Arab Israeli members of parliament criticize Israel as being Jewish, that means excluding non Jews. But when they travel to Egypt which official name is "The Arabic republic of Egypt", they don't feel awkward. You can visit Arab state but god forbid Jewish state.
@Mishkafofer Another point i realize. Hitchens is not aware to what factions the Religions Jews are divided. If you travel to New-York and go to orthodox religious communities and scream "i hate Zionism", nobody will harm you. Why? because Jewish orthodoxy do not recognize the Jewish state, yep, they still wait for Messiah. Some Jewish orthodox groups go over the top and travel to Iran to supports its regime against Zionism. So it really good to know what religious nut jobs you talk about.
I'd wager that Hitchens is well aware of the divisions among religious Jews. I'm aware of it too (I used to live in Brooklyn).
But most orthodox Jews (in New York and elsewhere) are strongly Zionist - only certain sects (Satmars) are not. But they too can recognize that anti-Zionist rhetoric is all too often nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism. It's the same thing one encounters all the time on You Tube.
On Israel-Palestine, Hitchens analysis is not so great. Religious Zionism became prominent during 1970. Settlers in West Bank and Gaza started only in 1970 so this is not an argument against Israel state to begin with. Most of Countries around Israel were mostly Secular Arabic Ba'at party such as Egypt and Syria.
Carl Sagan - "Our collective free time needs to shift as much as possible to education. Whether you're a young student or finished school long ago, get out to the library whenever you can and work hard to learn everything you can about this world. Each individual and society will benefit from being able to solve more problems and make better decisions. Education is an amazing discovery process that repays you endlessly."
new to atheist "community." Heard of, but hadn't heard, Hitchens b4. He's kinda snotty, isn't he? I'm not saying he's not right about his assertions, but man, what a CHIP on his shoulder....
@rriverstone1 He has no tolerance of uneducated opinions. He actively tries to find flaws in his opinions and arguments and tries to prove him self wrong. So usually people are uninformed when they start talking to him which would piss him off I imagine. They base their life on things they don't know!
But as others said, watch and read more, he's got the most virtue and integrity I've ever seen in anyone.If he's wrong he admits it and he changes. He lives for what's right and just in the world.
Thanks for that! This is Christopher at his best. It´s so sad to see this right after his most recent public appearence, where he looks so thin and sick. :-(
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Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
tigersforchrist 1 week ago
What a wonderful person he was.
tontsa911 1 month ago
Enjoyed all 7 of these, thanks. I learned a lot about both the subjects and how to conduct oneself in public speaking. I presume that none present would have thought that this man, in reasonably good health and certainly good humour, would be dead less than 3 years later. Hitchens is mentioned in my own upcoming new book, 'Parecomic', about left wing activist Michael Albert. I was hoping to have some contact with him later, but, unless he emails from heaven (!), there is little chance of that.
boychildnew1 2 months ago
RIP :( Everyone, lets have a happy Hitchmas!
HERPINGinWALES 2 months ago
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R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens you were one of the greatest thinkers of our time
marcoporno 2 months ago
He speaks French?!
StAndAl0neCompl3x 3 months ago
Comment removed
stephenfs03 3 months ago
Life determines consciousness, thus religion can't cause war. Ideologically, religion may play a role in war, having being embraced in uniting some people against others. Primarily, religion is a way through which to grasp our material existence, and can be equally embraced as much for liberation as for oppression. The way in which religion is embraced stems from interpretations inseparable from resolving our crisis-ridden existence. Capitalism thus contributes to war, religion is secondary.
stephenfs03 3 months ago
@stephenfs03 Really excellent comments on religion, capitalism and the true cause of wars.
There are few things more irksome than watching Hitchens describe Putin's Russia as though it were a theocracy, and implicating Christianity for the problems of Tsarist Russia.
historypoliticsbb 3 months ago
@historypoliticsbb, thanks for your support against Hitchens. Coming onto something like a Channel like this (pro-Hitchens) can feel quite isolating and alienating with what I'd describe as a very right-wing/postmodernist deflective 'discourse'. I checked out your site, looks great, and I much admire Chomsky and his greatness. The more recent Hitchens on politics and religion leaves much to be desired (perhaps his literary ramblings can have sense?, but his religious/politicism is askewed.
stephenfs03 3 months ago
@historypoliticsbb - capitalism? what are you talking about? laissez-faire Capitalism? You mean government don't you? right?
lector0003 3 months ago
@lector0003 What's your point? I'm not reading through all the previous comments, lol.
historypoliticsbb 3 months ago
@historypoliticsbb - I forgot why I posted this, but as long as you see a distinction ...
lector0003 2 months ago
Basically, "Hitchens" is irrelevant to most on the planet with the exception of a relatively small (though voracious) clique of esoteric "cultured" beings who are under the illusion of being well-informed. Most people won't waste too much time arguing with his supporters when there's real democratic processes emerging in places like Egypt, Wall Street, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece etc. encompassing people of varying beliefs uniting against a common enemy. Religion DOESN'T cause war and hatred.
stephenfs03 3 months ago
As a Jew, an Israeli and someone who sees the rise of Muslim fundamentalism as a world problem , not caused by the Jewish presence in its ancestral land (unlike what Mr Hitchens claims to be) but as a menace that need to be crushed before it engulfs the democracies of the globe, I still like this video.
deavman 3 months ago
@deavman I think we should be supporting the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign against the Israeli state and its compliant institutions. Not sure what your view on that would be, given that you're Israeli, and may be ostracised if speaking out against Israel's attrocities. Some non-Zionist Israeli's have spoken out though they're not very popular amidst what's currently a very fanatically right-wing skewed Israeli opinion. BDS holds the prospect of equality with Palestinians.
stephenfs03 3 months ago
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deavman 3 months ago
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@stephenfs03 I can't say anything that will change your mind.So I won't even try. In some way I can see why you feel that way. You are a victim of anti-Israel propaganda, in your situation I probably would feel the same. BDS will not help anything as long as it is not balanced by holding the other side (the Palestinian Arabs) to certain standards... I am NOT holding my breath, though.
deavman 3 months ago
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ALLAH asking the atheist these questions in the QURAN in chapter 52 verse 35:
"Were they created of nothing,
or were they the creators [of themselves]? 35 "
=> for more type in google "TheDeenShow"
akeello 3 months ago
Maybe the arabs should just leave the land to the Jews for a few months, then when no messiah shows up everyone will see how ridiculous the whole thing is and get on with their lives.
hungryman211 3 months ago
Thanks, god! A new Hitchens video :)
paunocu666 3 months ago
I couldn't care less on whether God exists or not. In reality it's the economic dynamics of captalism that is in part primarily having immediate implications upon the well-being of humanity, not what we contextually create in our heads. Democratic revolutionary processes in Egypt and Tunisia have contradicted the idea that religion is inherently undemocratic. Islam is potentially no less democratic than any other religious creed. The material fabric underpinning society is much more important.
stephenfs03 3 months ago
@stephenfs03 On capitalism, would you not say that China's growing acceptance of capitalism has encouraged cooperation with western nations, therefore decreasing the chance of conflict between the two largest world powers and, possibly, avoiding a genuinely apocalyptic (probably nuclear) war?
hungryman211 3 months ago
@hungryman211 firstly, China has never been a socialist country. Their state has only recently come to accept a partially more liberal capitalism vis-a-vis the more centrally planned capitalism under Mao. I'm not sure what "cooperation" means in the context of NATO (and it's allies) policies of Chinese containment as evident in say the imperialist war in Afghanistan and stationing of US troops in Darwin. Religious beliefs are no barrier to democracy as Egypt testifies, contradicting Hitchens.
stephenfs03 3 months ago
@stephenfs03 Firstly, I suggest you look up the term "Socialism with Chinese characteristics". This should tell you the story of China's reformation from a state-controlled financial system to the current semi-capitalist system which Deng Xiaoping implemented in the late 70's and has led to an extreme decline in the poverty of individuals and growth of the nation.
Secondly, "Religion DOESN'T cause war and hatred.", is one of the most blindly ridiculous statements ever.
hungryman211 3 months ago
@hungryman211 whether it's Mao or "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" it's still all capitalism. China is no more capitalist today than under Mao. Mao maintained in China a state-controlled capitalism. Deng allowed more market freedom. Poverty is still rampant in China today and as such will exist whether it's under Mao's state capitalism or today's more liberated capitalism. Religion is an idea and idea's don't cause war. Idea's come into existence in trying to grasp our material condition
stephenfs03 3 months ago
Why did God create people like Hitchens and Dawkins? Are free thinkers going to hell? God chose Bush to have his Godley greatness but them to to damnation.
zaprese 3 months ago
@zaprese No, they are not going to hell and no, God did not choose Bush.
Kenoburned 3 months ago
Never talks the same puffed-up nonsense twice! Always new rubbish. You have to love guys like these who are so self-regarding and yet spiritually empty. Hitchens and Dawkins will NEVER begin to understand God unless God decides to impart spiritual knowledge to them. Hitchens and Dawkins will laugh at this suggestion - after all they could never accept any greater creator than themselves.! They clearly have no understanding of God's word!
cyderpress 3 months ago
@cyderpress And how self-regarding must you be, to believe that you understand god's word more than another.
hungryman211 3 months ago
@hungryman211 Good comment! We are all able to understand God's word if we are open to hearing it. As the bible says, he is constantly knocking at the door waiting for us to let him in. When we think we are very smart then we ignore that knocking and are convinced we can do everything ourselves - we can't! When we admit that we need God's help and that we don't have all the answers, we can open the door and let him in.
That's self-effacing not self-regarding.
cyderpress 3 months ago
no comments, thanks.
alexsouls1 3 months ago
Another Point: If Zionism was so repugnant and outrages in Islamic eyes. How come Turkish Empire Allowed Zionism to establish and flourish since 1880 until 1917? Hertzel and other famous Zionist leaders meet with the Turkish Sultan. Tel-Aviv, the first Hebrew City was established in 1905 with Turkish blessing. Turkish Empire had sharia law and not so European secular state. 30+ years was not enough to reject Zionism for the Turkish leaders? Can any one comment on that?
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
The Turkish Ottoman empire was a relatively safe place for Jews to settle (2nd class citizenship being greatly preferable to outright persecution) and Jews did fairly well in Palestine under Ottoman rule.
But the Ottomans did not support the self-determination of Jews or the idea of an independent and autonomous Jewish state. (they didn't support an Arab state either). But the empire was simply not strong enough to hold back the tides of nationalism (Jewish or Arab).
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown True that the Turkish empire was not that strong but Zionist leaders were not shy about their goals or ambitions. Also true that the Turks were not thrilled about Zionism but as a dominant Islamic state they didn't saw any particular problem when Jews invest huge amount of money on a backward part of the Empire. My point was that Zionism was not considered a menacing and powerful enemy to Islam, What Hitchens talks about is new narrative that emerged in 1950 and later.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
Sure Zionism wasn't seen as a particularly great threat to the Turks. After all, nationalism was springing up all over the empire and the real threats to Ottoman power came from other empires - Russia, Britain etc.
But Zionism was identified as a threat fairly early on by Palestinian Arabs who had their own nationalist aspirations.
But sure, Zionism wasn't seen as a powerufl threat to the larger Muslim world until it actually succeeded (1948) and then grew strong (1967).
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown Interesting point: Before 1948, Jews and Arabs saw themselves as Palestinians! Zionist movement created a bank called Anglo-Palestina, today this is a major bank called Leumi (second in its size). So no surprising to learn that the partition plan of 1948 talked about Jewish and Arab state. Why this insight matter? That's how you learn the evolution of Palestinian identity. Before 1948 being Palestinian was not a political or ethnic matter, only geographical.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
That is interesting.
By the way, while I mostly agree with Hitchens here, I think his criticism of "Zionism" is too strong for a different reason. The fact is that for Jews seeking self-determination - something that Hitchens says he supports for all peoples - there simply weren't any better options on the table in the late 19th century and early part of the 20th century. Dhimmitude or Statehood. Which would HE choose?
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown About self determination for Jews. Just don't raise this idea on US campuses. When some Israeli bashes talk about Israel, they renounce the Jewish right for self determination, by criticizing the idea of national state as obsolete and chauvinistic. But then, they glorify the creation of other national state: Palestine. I found it impossible to educate them on inherent contradiction of this dual statement. If there is not place for national state, why support Palestine?
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
I agree completely that it's absurd and contradictory to be opposed to a Jewish state and advocate for an Islamic state in Palestine or anywhere else.
Even Hitchens, is not entirely consistent here. He advocates for Kurdish self-determination and the establishment of a Kurdish state. But this of course would be an Islamic State. (like the newly created Iraq & Afghanistan) Not a theocracy (one would hope) but still a state where Islam is privileged and the official religion.
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown I really like Hitchens but on some issues he is not that sharp, such as Israeli-Arab conflict. Although his critique is above everything i read from foreign journalist. Still it bother that he doesn't pay attention to details or he prefers to summarize it in favor of winning debate? He did know the difference between Israel and Iran and doesn't allow himself to be dragged to Israeli haters groups. Our little discussion proves that the issue is more complicated than he said.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer I also wonder may be i am to biased because i am an Israeli. But then again when you close to event geographically and chronologically, you develop sensitivity. But i don't blame Hitchens for being stupid, he visited numerous places and involved in many issue, Arab-Israeli issue is not pivotal to him, at least that my impression, most videos about him on Youtube deal with religion.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
To the extent you have a "bias" it is understandable. The events in question are closer to home and affect you more directly. In some ways that is an advantage for your perspective - in other ways it is a disadvantage.
I agree that some of Hitchens criticisms of Zionism seem superficial. It's as if he is still the street fighter from the "old left" who instinctively sides with the downtrodden. But for the most part, he's clear, fair and insightful - in my view.
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown I remember video were one lady in the crowd (Iranian) tried to compare Iran and Israel. Although HItchens is not Israel supporter, he quickly put that lady in place. I also liked that he not impressed with current Turkish government. But that is "He is on our side" type of analysis, and he is not, in most part he is honest journalist who don't afraid to change his mind when he got new facts so i don't label Hitchens as anti Israeli, not like some BBC type of people (brrrrr).
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer Did i mentioned i hate Youtube message system. You cannot track the discussion. This system is not designed for long correspondence Another point in Hitchens favor: In another video, he talked about messianic Rabbies in the West bank, so it seems he understands the difference about different religious groups but in this particular video, he seems generalizing too much. But then again this is not University lecture ,he needs to summarize.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown Onother point: Zionist Leaders such as Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsly and Hertzel were not Rabbis or Torah citing fanatics. So when Hitchens talks about Messianic Jewish invasion, he talks about the latest wave of Zionism that started in 1970. On the other side Arab leadership that opposed Israel, was secular such as Hafez Asad, Natzer, Saddam Hussain. Not exactly devoted Islamic Imams.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
I agree that the Messianic strain decried by Hitchens didn't really get going until after 1967 with the Settler movement
But even though the original Zionists and founders of Israel were secularists (and pragmatists) they were not above stoking these Messianic fires. Ben Gurion talked about the bible as a divine deed granting land to the Jews. So even though HE was a secularist, the embrace of this founding narrative helped make the Messianic craziness possible.
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown Hitchens wrote about Ben-Gurion and archeological excavation in Israel and Sinai. Israeli archeologist didn't found all the historical evidence for the bible and were honest about it. Hitchens wrote that this was an honest move. Before we judge Israel as messianic loonivile, its worth mentioning San-Remo agrrement of 1920, Balfour declaration 1917 and the British mandate that talked openly about "Jewish Home" (too careful not to mention independent state for political reasons).
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown So even before you judge Ben-Gurion as Jewish pseudo religious nut job, it worth while to ponder why the league of nation agreed about Jewish homeland in San-Remo agreement and allowed British mandate. Ben Gurion was not talking on empty space here. By the way i had ugly discussions about this issue on Youtube. Mostly it ended with optimistic message of wishing massacre and death to Jews in Israel.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
Oh, I don't think Ben Gurion was a religious nut job. Far from it - he was secular, pragmatic and inspirational.
But I agree with the basic point Hitchens makes. That when you found a state as a "Jewish State" and, more particularly, when you build this founding on a narrative about the fulfillment of a Divine Plan, you are paving way for the sort of Messianic movements we are seeing. As sensible Israelis know all too well, it's tough to bottle that up once it's out.
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
@citizenghosttown About Ben-Gurion. Well that's the Jewish narrative. I don't find it shameful or derogatory. But to continue i need you to clarify what "Jewish" means to you: Religion or National identity or both. By the way, Some Arab Israeli members of parliament criticize Israel as being Jewish, that means excluding non Jews. But when they travel to Egypt which official name is "The Arabic republic of Egypt", they don't feel awkward. You can visit Arab state but god forbid Jewish state.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer Another point i realize. Hitchens is not aware to what factions the Religions Jews are divided. If you travel to New-York and go to orthodox religious communities and scream "i hate Zionism", nobody will harm you. Why? because Jewish orthodoxy do not recognize the Jewish state, yep, they still wait for Messiah. Some Jewish orthodox groups go over the top and travel to Iran to supports its regime against Zionism. So it really good to know what religious nut jobs you talk about.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
@Mishkafofer
I'd wager that Hitchens is well aware of the divisions among religious Jews. I'm aware of it too (I used to live in Brooklyn).
But most orthodox Jews (in New York and elsewhere) are strongly Zionist - only certain sects (Satmars) are not. But they too can recognize that anti-Zionist rhetoric is all too often nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism. It's the same thing one encounters all the time on You Tube.
citizenghosttown 4 months ago
On Israel-Palestine, Hitchens analysis is not so great. Religious Zionism became prominent during 1970. Settlers in West Bank and Gaza started only in 1970 so this is not an argument against Israel state to begin with. Most of Countries around Israel were mostly Secular Arabic Ba'at party such as Egypt and Syria.
Mishkafofer 4 months ago
Thank you so much for posting this!
57earthchild 4 months ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
Carl Sagan - "Our collective free time needs to shift as much as possible to education. Whether you're a young student or finished school long ago, get out to the library whenever you can and work hard to learn everything you can about this world. Each individual and society will benefit from being able to solve more problems and make better decisions. Education is an amazing discovery process that repays you endlessly."
TheLogicalBrain 4 months ago
I can listen him talk all day.
rojenghale 4 months ago 5
Thanks for posting!
PhilipRBow 4 months ago 3
hes definitly a snotty, arogant prick and thats the reason why i love this dude! he can be all of those things and more cuz hes right on everything.
kengel214 4 months ago
those people's laughs are terribly rehearsed and mechanical.
redryan20000 4 months ago
Love Hitch. Thanks for this upload.
And he's not snotty, just smarter and better spoken than pretty much anybody else.
wiskers69 4 months ago 4
Great one +1
SPxQR 4 months ago
Some very sensible comments from C.H. here.
BINKIE2000 4 months ago
Glory! :)
So happy to see Hitchens, what an inspiration.
UncleSaat 4 months ago
@rriverstone1 He's speaks not with snottyness, but with incredible knowledge and honesty.
OmiXel 4 months ago 2
I don't think he's as much snotty as well educated and well traveled. He's confident in what he says and these days we're not accustomed to that.
ThatDifferentDude 4 months ago 2
new to atheist "community." Heard of, but hadn't heard, Hitchens b4. He's kinda snotty, isn't he? I'm not saying he's not right about his assertions, but man, what a CHIP on his shoulder....
rriverstone1 4 months ago
@rriverstone1 if you had experienced as much of the world as he has, you might too...
unhwildcat28 4 months ago 14
@rriverstone1 I have a playlist called Hitch if you'd like to hear more of his views. He's quite awesome.
shyshadeofwater 4 months ago 3
@rriverstone1 Read and listen to more of his stuff. He's far from snotty. He's assertive and so he should be.
limericklad2000 4 months ago 6
@rriverstone1 He has no tolerance of uneducated opinions. He actively tries to find flaws in his opinions and arguments and tries to prove him self wrong. So usually people are uninformed when they start talking to him which would piss him off I imagine. They base their life on things they don't know!
But as others said, watch and read more, he's got the most virtue and integrity I've ever seen in anyone.If he's wrong he admits it and he changes. He lives for what's right and just in the world.
theriggermortis2400 4 months ago
@theriggermortis2400
Well said. I've tried to explain as much to others about Hitchens but you nailed it! Thanks!
cfibb 4 months ago
Thanks for that! This is Christopher at his best. It´s so sad to see this right after his most recent public appearence, where he looks so thin and sick. :-(
lustigeballervideos 4 months ago
What a delightful surprise after all that this time!
MexxPowers 4 months ago 2
Thanks for uploading:):) Hadn't seen this one before, and a new Hitchens video always makes my day.
magicpony9 4 months ago 49