Seems to me I heard this on a Sunday afternoon radio broadcast around 1973 over WHYY Phil'a during the last few months of my dad's life. The radio, with built-in cassette recorder, got the strongest signal in his bedroom. He's wasn't a classical music fan but was tolerant.
Favorite perfomance of Ideale here. You se that main goal of Luciano hides in his unique temperament, passion, amaizing freedom in singing technicaly great. Menatly You cant be flegmatic to achieve results similar to Pavarotti's. You must absolutely enjoy what you do live... not only after perfomance... its like paint picture.
no one renders anything like pavarotti unfortunately he was the greatest tenor in everyway. no one can phrase like he could because no one had the technique to do so in my opinion.
LP's rendition of course is superb and no one would deny it. But one thing I need to make comment on is that, he surely is overwhelmend by his own emotion. Singer's supposed to be faithful to the music and emotion is for the share of listener , not of singer. His over feeling here is hurting the renditon that otherwise could have been perfect.
he got almost up to Callas on stage but security plain clothes men got him and took him away. Callas remained cool but did not smile or think it was funny I am sure. This is well sung by pavoratti.
I heard him in concert at that time at Royce hall UCLA and he did not sing it from what I remember. He sang a song he was not familiar with and had a small paper in his pocket not seen and when he walked off stage after this one song the paper fell out of his pocket, people in the front rows dove in and ran on stage trying to get the note, some lucky fan got it but no fight broke out. Then in 1974 I heard Callas/ Di stefano recital and at the end some idiot jumped on stage to hug her. cont.
I'm assuming it's Wustman on the piano... whoever it was did an exceptional job, the repetitive right hand can be quite piercing on the piano and detract from the singer, but the pianist plays lightly and beautiful.
I wish I had more details about this performance, I didn't think he sang Ideale in his 1973 recitals... I have most of the known recordings from the recitals and three that aren't in circulation, but at none of them does he Ideale...
This rendition of Ideale by Pavarotti, is a clear example of good technique, wonderful phrasing and good taste. Tosti was not to be sung as Puccini or Verdi. Tosti was a composer of saloom and chamber music. What matters here is the soft timbre the " messa di voce" and the "mezza voce" with perfect legato and clear articulation.
Sorry for those ignorants who think that beatiful singing is like a Circus.
Why do people always assume things like this? I don't remember what Caruso's sounded like, I'll give that one a listen again. The rest were not as good as Pavarotti's. Does that mean that they were worse tenors? Of course not. Just did not sing this as well.
Why do people always assume things like this? Because anyone guilty of the dim-witted assertion that a mediocre vocalist with a fairly nice voice, like Pavarotti, was a better singer than, say, Mattia Battistini, may logically be presumed not to 1) have heard Battistini and 2) know anything about singing.
GOS is quite knowledgeable about opera. I don't think there was anything mediocre about Pav., especially in his early days. This is my current favorite version. Caruso's is fine too but this is one of the few genres where I prefer a lighter, brighter voice. You may disagree but please don't imply that a person is "dim-witted" simply because their view differs from yours. And GOS only said that he hadn't heard a more beautiful *rendition* than this one- he didn't say Pav was a better singer.
pearlmuth3 who posted a comment above said he prefers this to Jussi's- although Jussi is his favorite lyric tenor. (I've talked to him.) "GermanOS" has said many times that Caruso is the greatest tenor ever in his opinion. He also loves this rendition. Pavarotti is FAR from being my favorite tenor but I think this is a lovely and poetic rendition. I believe it's you who is in the minority but please try not to be insulting.
And were not his "La fille du regiment" performances in the 60's and 70's exceptional? Probably the best ever in that role and among the best in a few other operas.
Pavarotti was magnificent in this role along with Sutherland. He combined tonal brilliance and sweetness with considerable agility and joie de vivre artistic interpretation. His voice at this time was stunning in several roles, for example, Edgardo in Lucia. Although I admire Florez in Rossini opera, he sounds more like a tenorino in "La Fille" than a tenor. However, beautiful as Pavarotti sounds in Tosti songs such as this, I personally prefer Bjorling's singing of them and, yes, Battistini's.
Compare Pavarotti's singing of Tonio's Act II romance, Pour vivre à côté de Marie, with McCormack's, and it's all over. It's not that Pavarotti's isn't pleasant, it's just that his voice and phrasing sound so crude by comparison.
The McCormack recording is a classic, never to be equaled, especially with regard to phrasing. McCormack is one of those select tenori di grazia, in the style of Bonci, Anselmi, Schipa, and Gigli, that are so elegant, perhaps too precious for some listeners of today. However, McCormack would be at a loss when it comes to the joyous High C's that this role demands. I realize high notes in themselves do not constitute great singing, but Pavarotti had much more than that in his early years.
I love Giuseppe Di Stefano. I love Cesare Valletti, who was a better vocalist. I like Flaviano Labò and Bruno Prevedi. I like Fernandino Ciniselli and Dino Borgioli. I like all kinds of charming Italians with clear voices and generous temperaments. I love Pavarotti more than all of the above. But, high C's and all, his vocalism was often crude.
Valletti--"un Schipa en petit"--I agree is charming and the young Di Stefano has a beautiful voice. Both are great singers. I like Borgioli as well, sometimes. The others not so much. I understand your point; but, as I've stated elsewhere, it is relative. Pavarotti, crude? It sounds like a preposterous statement on the surface, but compared to McCormack, Schipa, and, of course, Battistini, perhaps there is some truth to it. A critic once called Melba's singing crude, comparing it to Sembrich's.
Melba WAS sometimes crude in spirit, when compared to Sembrich the musician; but she was certainly not a crude vocalist. Then again, Sembrich never recorded anything so magical as Melba's ballade, the slow section, of the Mad Scene from Hamlet, Aux larmes de la Nuit. Everybody's crude, compared to that.
Melba's 1904 recording of Ophelie's Mad Scene from Hamlet is superb, particularly her exceptionally smooth and expressive legato in the ballade. The tempo is slower than the Galli-Curci, Tetrazzini, Sutherland, and Callas performances. Sembrich sang the role, but unfortunately never recorded the scena. Galli-Curci's legato is very elegant here and Callas' most expressive. In the rest of the aria, Melba does sound to many rather crude in her "cut-in-lengths," unrounded phrasing and hooty tones.
Not everybody likes Melba's full-voice martellato, which the recording diaphragm could hardly deal with at all, as opposed to Galli Curci's featherweight staccati. But I find Melba's full-voiced bravura in the fast section quite amazing—like her early Sempre libera, a real cue to her status as the Queen of Song—until Tetrazzini's arrival, anyway.
I like it too although some do not. Her first recording of "Sempre libera" (1904 or 1905, I think) is quite amazing. There is a story attached to that recording which I vaguely recall. I believe she had originally recorded the whole scene at an even faster tempo, but it was discarded for some reason. Do you remember the details of it? Anyway, I also like very much (as you know so well) Galli-Curci's featherweight staccati and her legato singing. No comment on Tetrazzini's "Sempre libera."
Her first Ah fors' è lui (1904) was followed by an AMAZING Sempre libera that ran into the label, so they covered it with a metal plate before mastering the matrix for sale. When HMV re-issued the Complete Melba on LP in the 1970s, they removed the plate and issued the whole side for the first time.
Meanwhile she had recorded a replacement Sempre libera in 1905, alone on a side. That was also superb, but she is at a considerably greater distance from the horn. The 1904 is very vivid (and next to impossible to master in the early days) because she was very close to the horn.
She re-recorded the scena for Victor in 1907 and 1911.
Thanks for the details of this interesting story (well, to record collectors at least). I had only bits and pieces of it in my memory. I also recall and own Melba's distance test of an arpeggio phrase from Ophelie's Mad Scene. It is said the record engineers decided on the middle distance.
According to Henderson, in 1907 Melba's voice had begun to deteriorate, taking on a "slightly acidulous quality," as she was 46 years old by that time. One can hear the change even while the recording technology was improving. I still admire some of her 1913 recordings, but not so much her electrics except for her final recording of "Swing low, sweet chariot."
Melba's soft reprise of "Dite alla giovane" is one of the great phrases in recorded opera. The Szulc Clair de Lune is my favourite recording of a French mélodie. Melba's complete Desdemona scene (except for some of the high notes) in the Farewell performance is unique: no one ever sang that scene like her. I also love the 1917 "Songs my mother taught me".
Again, Henderson, who worshiped Melba and I believe was at her farewell, disagrees and states that this concert did not enhance her reputation. One can only imagine what she must have sounded like in performance during her prime! I also love the "Songs my mother taught me." There are two recordings, one with piano accompaniment, the other with orchestra (!). I think they were recorded in 1913.
As you said more than once, it's relative. Maybe Melba was a shadow of herself as Henderson first heard her in the 1890s. But she was a damn better Desdemona, even in old age, than Herva Nelli, or Rysanek or Studer or Soyanova or Freni at 60, or (gulp) Gwyneth Jones!
To me, the Galli-Curci and De Luca electric version of "Dite alla giovane," recorded in 1927, is the best. Galli-Curci's tone and legato singing are pure heaven.
I quite agree that Sembrich's Si mes vers is perhaps her finest record.
Melba's is ruined by her outrageous Australian dyphthongs: Say my VYrs a-VY DYs Yles. But do you know some of her Bemberg trifles? Sur le lac? Les anges pleurent? She could be a transforming artist.
Melba's 1906 recording of Bemberg's song "Sur le lac" is among her finest performances on record. The earlier version of "Les anges pleurent" is also magnificent. I would add to these the extraordinary first recording of the tenor aria from Lalo's "Le Roi d'Ys" (much better than Gigli's recording) and the splendid Bizet pastoral, La Bergere. There is one phrase in this song beginning with "La belle..." which is one of the most beautiful I've ever heard.
That's right. Those are among Melba's best records. As is her Tosti and the most gorgeous Ave Maria from Otello. The phrase from the Bizet Pastorale (which Rethberg also recorded beautifully) is like that line from the Otello Willow Song "Egli era nato per la sua gloria, io per amar...e per morir.." NO ONE could sing that phrase like Melba!
It seems Melba stylistically excelled in and, most likely, temperamentally preferred the French repertoire, including the then new, and newly commissioned, salon songs of Bemberg and French art songs. This despite an often indifferent French pronunciation. Of course, she also loved the role of Mimi and made a living continuously singing Lucias and Lucia Mad Scenes in recital (as well as Marguerites and Juliettes). She even longed to sing Tosca but was dissuaded from doing so by Mary Garden.
Pavarotti had a superb sense for the shape of a phrase. Listen to his singing as Pollione in the second Sutherland Norma: his phrasing is exquisite. The timbre of his voice was pure silver.
But the quality of his tone was often breathy, even hoarse, compared to the silken, soft-grained quality of an Anselmi, a Lauri Volpi or a McCormack. And he could NOT sing softly.
I agree with your last statement about Pavarotti's inability to sing piano. This difficulty increased with age to the point that I sometimes wished he would just sing mezzo forte instead of attempting pianissimo. (Unless you mean he never even attempted to sing softly.) Corelli had more difficulty than Pavarotti with soft singing, and Del Monaco even more than Corelli. Lauri-Volpi has been accused of not singing softly as well. As you state, Pavarotti did know how to shape a phrase.
You are being way too narrow minded, Pavarotti's rendition of this was fantastic. I adore some of the singers you mentioned, but Pavarotti should not merely be shoved in their shadow. He was a great tenor, I believe this was a supreme rendition, it's not eccentric, it's just an opinion, which I am entitled to.
To describe Luciano Pavarotti as a mediocre vocalist, makes you appear very silly. Yes later on in his career his voice suffered due to bad lifestyle and lack of practice but early he had a very solid technique. Just look at recitals such as the 1990 three tenors concert and the 1988 Met recital with Levine. He was a fine artist and singer and to call him a mediocrity displays a breathtaking ignorance on your part.
Listen to tenors like Francesco Tamagno, Paul Franz, Herman Jadlowker, Lauritz Melchior—those are brilliant vocalists! Compared to them, Pavarotti sounds quite amateurish, even though he had a pretty voice and a nice, clean sense of phrase.
There is absolutely nothing amateurish about the lyric voice of Pavarotti in his early career. His voice was balanced and healthy technically and that is not opinion it is fact, not to mention what I think was a beautiful timbre also. It is clear from that list that you prefer dramatic singers why not just say that and leave it at that
I agree Pavarotti was a brilliant singer when he first came on the operatic scene, compared to Gigli by some critics. Everything is relative, however, and I would not exactly place him at the same exalted level as Caruso, Bjorling, McCormack, Schipa, or Gigli. But the subject I think is open to discussion. I would also point out that the dates of the recitals you mention are not early in his career (although he is still in good form).
Yes I agree that the dates stated were not early but there are excerpts of these on youtube and are a testament to his artistry. They were sited to show how good he was not to prove the early comment. After about 96/97 we really see him deteriorate but before that he was wonderful.
Battistini's singing was a miracle of tone production and emission and he was a master of elegant phrasing, pure legato, and florid accomplishment. In addition, perhaps surprisingly, he could be an excellent interpreter (despite idiosyncrasies), who would on occasion depart from the bel canto line for dramatic emphasis. However, I hope you don't really believe he was an incomparably better singer than Caruso and Schipa, especially the former. Just reacting to the previous comment, I hope.
I love Caruso and Schipa, but neither was the transcendental vocalist that Battistini was. Transcendental in the sense Liszt used the word, ie, just short of supernatural.
A "bel canto line" is not just an affect-less vocal stream of the Suzanne Danco/Gundula Janowitz type, but an EXPRESSIVE, MEANINGFUL, besides beautifully molded, vocal line, just as Battistini (and Luisa Tetrazzini) conceived it. They WERE bel canto.
I realize the bel canto line can be and should be expressive and meaningful as well as beautifully molded. Callas made that clear in theoretical discussion and often in her singing. I was referring to the instances in which Battistini actually departs from his customary legato and breaks the line, as in the Prologue to Pagliacci. Chaliapin does that more often--perhaps too often--but he can also sing pure legato when he wishes to, as in "Vi ravisso" from Sonnambula, a few "w" aspirates aside.
Never mind Chaliapin. Schipa had an exquisite musical personality, but he could never sing like Battistini; there is something like a WOBBLE in his "Ideale"!
Caruso's voice was indeed transcendental—even more than Battistini's. But his STYLE wasn't.
Schipa surely knew how to mold a phrase in an expressive manner. The voice per se was not as beautiful as Battistini's; but what singing! I partially agree with your comments about Caruso, who adapted his style to the current fashion. His earliest recordings suggest a more elegant stylistic approach. My main disagreement is your assertion that Caruso's voice (as distinguished from singing) was not transcendental since it, more than any other on record, is a composite of preternatural qualities.
I know Battistini's Amour. It's not much of a song, but it is one of Battistini's finest records. Exactly what "lyrical" means. It's not that Caruso COULDN'T sing like that, it's that he wouldn't. Different forms of humanity.
It's wonderful that you decide to share your incredible (really is) knowledge with all the rest of us, but you haven't a ghost of a clue on how to communicate with human-beings and how to speak about of and of art.
Even if there is some truth in it and I don't doubt it for a mere second, you enforce yourself on all of us and on our freedom of opinion and taste.
Other than the esteemed and educated Melzerboy, whom I have the honor of often addressing on these boards, not a single person here added anything factual or substantive in this discussion. Including you.
You all seem to care more about my personality than about singing. How bizarre.
He was the master of all masters and there will never be a tenor like he was... if there ever was one at all........... Riposa in pace gran maestro......
This is lovely. Just had the opportunity to listen to this very minute. I looked yesterday to his picture and for some reason I thought you had mistaken it even if with his name on top! Seriously. Does not look like him at all but only first glance, looking further then yes it's his face all right. Nice looking too and extremely young here. Extraordinary voice great video. I do like him very much you know. Thanks a lot Sean
Yes, we get so used to seeing (and hearing) him in his 40's, 50's and 60's, since he was so active throughout most of his life. So we forget how good he sounded (and looked!) when he was young. :P Wait until you see the next picture Im going to use, once I have a recording for it. ;-)
I'm sure I've heard this version before, I'll check my collection, it's extremely disorganised though, so I have to manually filter through 700 CDs, so I'll have to get back to you with the details :P.
I have that photo of him, do you have a date for it? Judging purely by looks, I'd say 1968, any idea if that's correct?
Nope no info on the picture either, (my collections must be as disorganized as yours :P) but I'd guess you were about right- maybe a couple years later though, as I've seen a pic from him in '68 and he looked even younger than this! But angles/facial hair can make a difference. :P Thanks! :D
I get to be the first to comment. Thank you ShawDamon. Pavarotti has such beautiful and pristine voice. :) Exquisite!! I will add it to my favorites. :)
w której minucie leci kasza ta troche jest słona ?
lukis49 3 weeks ago
Seems to me I heard this on a Sunday afternoon radio broadcast around 1973 over WHYY Phil'a during the last few months of my dad's life. The radio, with built-in cassette recorder, got the strongest signal in his bedroom. He's wasn't a classical music fan but was tolerant.
gmmix 1 month ago
this is a dream! Thank you very much... it's inbeliveable, how wonderfully he sings this song!
angelofsundown 1 month ago
kaszka ta troche jest slona... kto pl? :D
piterek888421 2 months ago 5
@piterek888421 Lol. Ciekawa analogia.
ShawDAMAN 2 months ago
BRAVO!
LorandPercsi 9 months ago
It's so extraordinary that there is no word to describe it!
Thank you!
Juliet0307 1 year ago 3
Nunca fui um fã do Pavarotti, mas, devo confessar: nunca ouvi esta canção tão estupendamente bem cantada, e é a minha prediletíssima canção italiana.
Ah, o leto Janis Zabers,a canta muito bem!!!
Bravo! p ambos.
tsbsartini 1 year ago
I miss Maestro Pavarotti so much. Thank God for recordings like this and others that will make him immortal
chorusinger 1 year ago
Favorite perfomance of Ideale here. You se that main goal of Luciano hides in his unique temperament, passion, amaizing freedom in singing technicaly great. Menatly You cant be flegmatic to achieve results similar to Pavarotti's. You must absolutely enjoy what you do live... not only after perfomance... its like paint picture.
janxbmxrace 2 years ago
no one renders anything like pavarotti unfortunately he was the greatest tenor in everyway. no one can phrase like he could because no one had the technique to do so in my opinion.
bigus 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I still think this is the best version of Ideale I've ever heard. Not even Caruso beats Luciano in this....
tomfroekjaer 2 years ago
I would agree. I wonder how you got marked as spam so quickly lol... I didn't do it.
ShawDAMAN 2 years ago
Yes, that weird :-)
Maybe YT has categorized me as spammer in general :-)
Chhers, Tom
tomfroekjaer 2 years ago
5 *****
MrLuiscastellanos 2 years ago
La Voce!!!
ladyopera69 2 years ago 3
thanks for the post. What an incredible voice and feeling melt together
ghadaghanem 2 years ago 5
Just beautiful!
SchugOo 2 years ago 5
this is so wonderful beyond description. Bravo Luciano and thanks for the post!
aspsingr 2 years ago 4
Isn't it wonderful when great performance-art is allowed to triumph over "attitudes of one-upmanship?"
operacrasher 2 years ago
deskfruit,
What do you think about the Caruso and Battistini renditions?
If this is over feeling than what are the above mentioned renditions?
chaiter1 2 years ago
LP's rendition of course is superb and no one would deny it. But one thing I need to make comment on is that, he surely is overwhelmend by his own emotion. Singer's supposed to be faithful to the music and emotion is for the share of listener , not of singer. His over feeling here is hurting the renditon that otherwise could have been perfect.
deskfruit 2 years ago
Here he, IMO, even beats Caruso - which as you know, takes a lot for me to admit :-)
100 stars!
tomfroekjaer 2 years ago 3
he got almost up to Callas on stage but security plain clothes men got him and took him away. Callas remained cool but did not smile or think it was funny I am sure. This is well sung by pavoratti.
halavey 2 years ago
Thanks for the comments, enjoyable
ShawDAMAN 2 years ago
@halavey Who almost got up to Callas?
seektheforce 11 months ago
I heard him in concert at that time at Royce hall UCLA and he did not sing it from what I remember. He sang a song he was not familiar with and had a small paper in his pocket not seen and when he walked off stage after this one song the paper fell out of his pocket, people in the front rows dove in and ran on stage trying to get the note, some lucky fan got it but no fight broke out. Then in 1974 I heard Callas/ Di stefano recital and at the end some idiot jumped on stage to hug her. cont.
halavey 2 years ago
I'm assuming it's Wustman on the piano... whoever it was did an exceptional job, the repetitive right hand can be quite piercing on the piano and detract from the singer, but the pianist plays lightly and beautiful.
I wish I had more details about this performance, I didn't think he sang Ideale in his 1973 recitals... I have most of the known recordings from the recitals and three that aren't in circulation, but at none of them does he Ideale...
Mysterious :o.
Mooorhe 2 years ago
does he sing Ideale*
Mooorhe 2 years ago
This rendition of Ideale by Pavarotti, is a clear example of good technique, wonderful phrasing and good taste. Tosti was not to be sung as Puccini or Verdi. Tosti was a composer of saloom and chamber music. What matters here is the soft timbre the " messa di voce" and the "mezza voce" with perfect legato and clear articulation.
Sorry for those ignorants who think that beatiful singing is like a Circus.
ngurrytenore 2 years ago 3
Very fine comment, thankyou
ShawDAMAN 2 years ago
fantastic singing even better then jussi's
pearlmuth3 3 years ago
WONDERFUL!
pearlmuth3 3 years ago
yes :-)
thanks for listening
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
I don't remember hearing a more beautiful rendition than this one. One of the many things that Pavarotti does best.
GermanOperaSinger 3 years ago 3
Nor have I. Glad you enjoyed
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
Then you obviously never heard records by Battistini, Caruso, McCormack, Schipa and Bjœrling.
AulicExclusiva 3 years ago
Why do people always assume things like this? I don't remember what Caruso's sounded like, I'll give that one a listen again. The rest were not as good as Pavarotti's. Does that mean that they were worse tenors? Of course not. Just did not sing this as well.
GermanOperaSinger 3 years ago 2
Why do people always assume things like this? Because anyone guilty of the dim-witted assertion that a mediocre vocalist with a fairly nice voice, like Pavarotti, was a better singer than, say, Mattia Battistini, may logically be presumed not to 1) have heard Battistini and 2) know anything about singing.
Battistini, by the way, was a BARITONE.
AulicExclusiva 3 years ago
GOS is quite knowledgeable about opera. I don't think there was anything mediocre about Pav., especially in his early days. This is my current favorite version. Caruso's is fine too but this is one of the few genres where I prefer a lighter, brighter voice. You may disagree but please don't imply that a person is "dim-witted" simply because their view differs from yours. And GOS only said that he hadn't heard a more beautiful *rendition* than this one- he didn't say Pav was a better singer.
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
AND tone deaf, as well, since neither of you is aware how Pavarotti goes off-key in this performance.
You may like Pavarotti (I do too) but to suggest anything he did is supreme constitutes a very personal and excentric opinion.
AulicExclusiva 3 years ago
pearlmuth3 who posted a comment above said he prefers this to Jussi's- although Jussi is his favorite lyric tenor. (I've talked to him.) "GermanOS" has said many times that Caruso is the greatest tenor ever in his opinion. He also loves this rendition. Pavarotti is FAR from being my favorite tenor but I think this is a lovely and poetic rendition. I believe it's you who is in the minority but please try not to be insulting.
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
And were not his "La fille du regiment" performances in the 60's and 70's exceptional? Probably the best ever in that role and among the best in a few other operas.
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
Pavarotti was magnificent in this role along with Sutherland. He combined tonal brilliance and sweetness with considerable agility and joie de vivre artistic interpretation. His voice at this time was stunning in several roles, for example, Edgardo in Lucia. Although I admire Florez in Rossini opera, he sounds more like a tenorino in "La Fille" than a tenor. However, beautiful as Pavarotti sounds in Tosti songs such as this, I personally prefer Bjorling's singing of them and, yes, Battistini's.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Fair enough, thanks for the comment. I have never fallen in love with Bjorling's voice for whatever reason, don't deny he was a great singer though.
ShawDAMAN 2 years ago
Compare Pavarotti's singing of Tonio's Act II romance, Pour vivre à côté de Marie, with McCormack's, and it's all over. It's not that Pavarotti's isn't pleasant, it's just that his voice and phrasing sound so crude by comparison.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
The McCormack recording is a classic, never to be equaled, especially with regard to phrasing. McCormack is one of those select tenori di grazia, in the style of Bonci, Anselmi, Schipa, and Gigli, that are so elegant, perhaps too precious for some listeners of today. However, McCormack would be at a loss when it comes to the joyous High C's that this role demands. I realize high notes in themselves do not constitute great singing, but Pavarotti had much more than that in his early years.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
I love Giuseppe Di Stefano. I love Cesare Valletti, who was a better vocalist. I like Flaviano Labò and Bruno Prevedi. I like Fernandino Ciniselli and Dino Borgioli. I like all kinds of charming Italians with clear voices and generous temperaments. I love Pavarotti more than all of the above. But, high C's and all, his vocalism was often crude.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Valletti--"un Schipa en petit"--I agree is charming and the young Di Stefano has a beautiful voice. Both are great singers. I like Borgioli as well, sometimes. The others not so much. I understand your point; but, as I've stated elsewhere, it is relative. Pavarotti, crude? It sounds like a preposterous statement on the surface, but compared to McCormack, Schipa, and, of course, Battistini, perhaps there is some truth to it. A critic once called Melba's singing crude, comparing it to Sembrich's.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Melba WAS sometimes crude in spirit, when compared to Sembrich the musician; but she was certainly not a crude vocalist. Then again, Sembrich never recorded anything so magical as Melba's ballade, the slow section, of the Mad Scene from Hamlet, Aux larmes de la Nuit. Everybody's crude, compared to that.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Melba's 1904 recording of Ophelie's Mad Scene from Hamlet is superb, particularly her exceptionally smooth and expressive legato in the ballade. The tempo is slower than the Galli-Curci, Tetrazzini, Sutherland, and Callas performances. Sembrich sang the role, but unfortunately never recorded the scena. Galli-Curci's legato is very elegant here and Callas' most expressive. In the rest of the aria, Melba does sound to many rather crude in her "cut-in-lengths," unrounded phrasing and hooty tones.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Not everybody likes Melba's full-voice martellato, which the recording diaphragm could hardly deal with at all, as opposed to Galli Curci's featherweight staccati. But I find Melba's full-voiced bravura in the fast section quite amazing—like her early Sempre libera, a real cue to her status as the Queen of Song—until Tetrazzini's arrival, anyway.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
I like it too although some do not. Her first recording of "Sempre libera" (1904 or 1905, I think) is quite amazing. There is a story attached to that recording which I vaguely recall. I believe she had originally recorded the whole scene at an even faster tempo, but it was discarded for some reason. Do you remember the details of it? Anyway, I also like very much (as you know so well) Galli-Curci's featherweight staccati and her legato singing. No comment on Tetrazzini's "Sempre libera."
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Her first Ah fors' è lui (1904) was followed by an AMAZING Sempre libera that ran into the label, so they covered it with a metal plate before mastering the matrix for sale. When HMV re-issued the Complete Melba on LP in the 1970s, they removed the plate and issued the whole side for the first time.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Meanwhile she had recorded a replacement Sempre libera in 1905, alone on a side. That was also superb, but she is at a considerably greater distance from the horn. The 1904 is very vivid (and next to impossible to master in the early days) because she was very close to the horn.
She re-recorded the scena for Victor in 1907 and 1911.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Thanks for the details of this interesting story (well, to record collectors at least). I had only bits and pieces of it in my memory. I also recall and own Melba's distance test of an arpeggio phrase from Ophelie's Mad Scene. It is said the record engineers decided on the middle distance.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
According to Henderson, in 1907 Melba's voice had begun to deteriorate, taking on a "slightly acidulous quality," as she was 46 years old by that time. One can hear the change even while the recording technology was improving. I still admire some of her 1913 recordings, but not so much her electrics except for her final recording of "Swing low, sweet chariot."
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Melba's soft reprise of "Dite alla giovane" is one of the great phrases in recorded opera. The Szulc Clair de Lune is my favourite recording of a French mélodie. Melba's complete Desdemona scene (except for some of the high notes) in the Farewell performance is unique: no one ever sang that scene like her. I also love the 1917 "Songs my mother taught me".
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Again, Henderson, who worshiped Melba and I believe was at her farewell, disagrees and states that this concert did not enhance her reputation. One can only imagine what she must have sounded like in performance during her prime! I also love the "Songs my mother taught me." There are two recordings, one with piano accompaniment, the other with orchestra (!). I think they were recorded in 1913.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
As you said more than once, it's relative. Maybe Melba was a shadow of herself as Henderson first heard her in the 1890s. But she was a damn better Desdemona, even in old age, than Herva Nelli, or Rysanek or Studer or Soyanova or Freni at 60, or (gulp) Gwyneth Jones!
Many of her phrases are unforgettable.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
To me, the Galli-Curci and De Luca electric version of "Dite alla giovane," recorded in 1927, is the best. Galli-Curci's tone and legato singing are pure heaven.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Perhaps Sembrich comes close in her recording of Hahn's "Si mes vers avaient des ailes," better than Melba's performance IMO.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
I quite agree that Sembrich's Si mes vers is perhaps her finest record.
Melba's is ruined by her outrageous Australian dyphthongs: Say my VYrs a-VY DYs Yles. But do you know some of her Bemberg trifles? Sur le lac? Les anges pleurent? She could be a transforming artist.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Melba's 1906 recording of Bemberg's song "Sur le lac" is among her finest performances on record. The earlier version of "Les anges pleurent" is also magnificent. I would add to these the extraordinary first recording of the tenor aria from Lalo's "Le Roi d'Ys" (much better than Gigli's recording) and the splendid Bizet pastoral, La Bergere. There is one phrase in this song beginning with "La belle..." which is one of the most beautiful I've ever heard.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
That's right. Those are among Melba's best records. As is her Tosti and the most gorgeous Ave Maria from Otello. The phrase from the Bizet Pastorale (which Rethberg also recorded beautifully) is like that line from the Otello Willow Song "Egli era nato per la sua gloria, io per amar...e per morir.." NO ONE could sing that phrase like Melba!
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
It seems Melba stylistically excelled in and, most likely, temperamentally preferred the French repertoire, including the then new, and newly commissioned, salon songs of Bemberg and French art songs. This despite an often indifferent French pronunciation. Of course, she also loved the role of Mimi and made a living continuously singing Lucias and Lucia Mad Scenes in recital (as well as Marguerites and Juliettes). She even longed to sing Tosca but was dissuaded from doing so by Mary Garden.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Pavarotti had a superb sense for the shape of a phrase. Listen to his singing as Pollione in the second Sutherland Norma: his phrasing is exquisite. The timbre of his voice was pure silver.
But the quality of his tone was often breathy, even hoarse, compared to the silken, soft-grained quality of an Anselmi, a Lauri Volpi or a McCormack. And he could NOT sing softly.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
I agree with your last statement about Pavarotti's inability to sing piano. This difficulty increased with age to the point that I sometimes wished he would just sing mezzo forte instead of attempting pianissimo. (Unless you mean he never even attempted to sing softly.) Corelli had more difficulty than Pavarotti with soft singing, and Del Monaco even more than Corelli. Lauri-Volpi has been accused of not singing softly as well. As you state, Pavarotti did know how to shape a phrase.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
@meltzerboy bs
tdeane34 1 year ago
@tdeane34 Thank you so much for your informative and insightful comment!
meltzerboy 1 year ago
He doesn't go off-key.
Mooorhe 3 years ago
You are being way too narrow minded, Pavarotti's rendition of this was fantastic. I adore some of the singers you mentioned, but Pavarotti should not merely be shoved in their shadow. He was a great tenor, I believe this was a supreme rendition, it's not eccentric, it's just an opinion, which I am entitled to.
Mooorhe 3 years ago
Comment removed
viv3147 3 years ago
At 1:31 there is no discernible pitch at all, as often when he sings softly.
He is on the flat side of the note several times in this performance, especially the whole phrase after 2:05, at 4:40 and the last note of all.
AulicExclusiva 3 years ago
My god the ignorance is just OLYMPIC.
Webarton 2 years ago 2
Whose ignorance?
Mooorhe 2 years ago
People commenting on pitches..and just oh my god, I cannot even begin...
It is truly sad that these people open their mouths.
All the Best,
Joe
May Pavarotti live in our hearts forever.
Webarton 2 years ago 2
To describe Luciano Pavarotti as a mediocre vocalist, makes you appear very silly. Yes later on in his career his voice suffered due to bad lifestyle and lack of practice but early he had a very solid technique. Just look at recitals such as the 1990 three tenors concert and the 1988 Met recital with Levine. He was a fine artist and singer and to call him a mediocrity displays a breathtaking ignorance on your part.
dolicimani 3 years ago
You obviously know nothing.
Listen to tenors like Francesco Tamagno, Paul Franz, Herman Jadlowker, Lauritz Melchior—those are brilliant vocalists! Compared to them, Pavarotti sounds quite amateurish, even though he had a pretty voice and a nice, clean sense of phrase.
AulicExclusiva 3 years ago
There is absolutely nothing amateurish about the lyric voice of Pavarotti in his early career. His voice was balanced and healthy technically and that is not opinion it is fact, not to mention what I think was a beautiful timbre also. It is clear from that list that you prefer dramatic singers why not just say that and leave it at that
dolicimani 3 years ago 3
''...Pavarotti sounds quite amateurish ...''. Ignorant and subjective thesis.
castorp278 3 years ago
You little idiotic frenchman. Saying Pavarotti sounded amateurish as a vocalist is like suggesting that Henri Poincare was a highschool math teacher.
TheInquisitive4Ever 3 years ago
I agree Pavarotti was a brilliant singer when he first came on the operatic scene, compared to Gigli by some critics. Everything is relative, however, and I would not exactly place him at the same exalted level as Caruso, Bjorling, McCormack, Schipa, or Gigli. But the subject I think is open to discussion. I would also point out that the dates of the recitals you mention are not early in his career (although he is still in good form).
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Yes I agree that the dates stated were not early but there are excerpts of these on youtube and are a testament to his artistry. They were sited to show how good he was not to prove the early comment. After about 96/97 we really see him deteriorate but before that he was wonderful.
dolicimani 2 years ago
Yeah, I know he was a baritone.
GermanOperaSinger 2 years ago
Battistini?
He doesn't belong in the same list as Caruso and Schipa, and not just because he was a baritone.
Mooorhe 2 years ago
You are right. He was an incomparably greater singer than either.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Battistini's singing was a miracle of tone production and emission and he was a master of elegant phrasing, pure legato, and florid accomplishment. In addition, perhaps surprisingly, he could be an excellent interpreter (despite idiosyncrasies), who would on occasion depart from the bel canto line for dramatic emphasis. However, I hope you don't really believe he was an incomparably better singer than Caruso and Schipa, especially the former. Just reacting to the previous comment, I hope.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
I love Caruso and Schipa, but neither was the transcendental vocalist that Battistini was. Transcendental in the sense Liszt used the word, ie, just short of supernatural.
A "bel canto line" is not just an affect-less vocal stream of the Suzanne Danco/Gundula Janowitz type, but an EXPRESSIVE, MEANINGFUL, besides beautifully molded, vocal line, just as Battistini (and Luisa Tetrazzini) conceived it. They WERE bel canto.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
I realize the bel canto line can be and should be expressive and meaningful as well as beautifully molded. Callas made that clear in theoretical discussion and often in her singing. I was referring to the instances in which Battistini actually departs from his customary legato and breaks the line, as in the Prologue to Pagliacci. Chaliapin does that more often--perhaps too often--but he can also sing pure legato when he wishes to, as in "Vi ravisso" from Sonnambula, a few "w" aspirates aside.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Never mind Chaliapin. Schipa had an exquisite musical personality, but he could never sing like Battistini; there is something like a WOBBLE in his "Ideale"!
Caruso's voice was indeed transcendental—even more than Battistini's. But his STYLE wasn't.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
Schipa surely knew how to mold a phrase in an expressive manner. The voice per se was not as beautiful as Battistini's; but what singing! I partially agree with your comments about Caruso, who adapted his style to the current fashion. His earliest recordings suggest a more elegant stylistic approach. My main disagreement is your assertion that Caruso's voice (as distinguished from singing) was not transcendental since it, more than any other on record, is a composite of preternatural qualities.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
Try Battistini's performance of Tosti's "Amour" on youtube, and let me know what you think.
meltzerboy 2 years ago
I know Battistini's Amour. It's not much of a song, but it is one of Battistini's finest records. Exactly what "lyrical" means. It's not that Caruso COULDN'T sing like that, it's that he wouldn't. Different forms of humanity.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
If not of ignorance your words reek of arrogance.
It's wonderful that you decide to share your incredible (really is) knowledge with all the rest of us, but you haven't a ghost of a clue on how to communicate with human-beings and how to speak about of and of art.
Even if there is some truth in it and I don't doubt it for a mere second, you enforce yourself on all of us and on our freedom of opinion and taste.
You don't possess THE Truth.
Please, show some respect to others.
KenneRon 2 years ago
speak of artists and of art*
KenneRon 2 years ago
Other than the esteemed and educated Melzerboy, whom I have the honor of often addressing on these boards, not a single person here added anything factual or substantive in this discussion. Including you.
You all seem to care more about my personality than about singing. How bizarre.
AulicExclusiva 2 years ago
@AulicExclusiva I am honored by your compliment, AE.
meltzerboy 1 year ago
He was the master of all masters and there will never be a tenor like he was... if there ever was one at all........... Riposa in pace gran maestro......
Dalmata1961 3 years ago
Stanning singing.Bravo!Thanks for posting.
Dobrib 3 years ago 2
I have this recording on a cd, and it is dated as 1973, but no further info.
calcecini 3 years ago 2
Thanks! I will adjust my description accordingly, unless I hear different.
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
Would you like me to post the Caruso version as a video response?
tomfroekjaer 3 years ago 2
Certainly, if you like =)
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
One of the very best renditions of Ideale ever. Thanks.
tomfroekjaer 3 years ago
Yes, I'm glad you liked it too :)
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
This is absolutely stunning...just gorgeous! This goes in my favorites!!!
novice1959 3 years ago
I'm glad you enjoyed it :)
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
This is lovely. Just had the opportunity to listen to this very minute. I looked yesterday to his picture and for some reason I thought you had mistaken it even if with his name on top! Seriously. Does not look like him at all but only first glance, looking further then yes it's his face all right. Nice looking too and extremely young here. Extraordinary voice great video. I do like him very much you know. Thanks a lot Sean
pianist527 3 years ago
Yes, we get so used to seeing (and hearing) him in his 40's, 50's and 60's, since he was so active throughout most of his life. So we forget how good he sounded (and looked!) when he was young. :P Wait until you see the next picture Im going to use, once I have a recording for it. ;-)
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
Thank you very much, beautiful.
I'm sure I've heard this version before, I'll check my collection, it's extremely disorganised though, so I have to manually filter through 700 CDs, so I'll have to get back to you with the details :P.
I have that photo of him, do you have a date for it? Judging purely by looks, I'd say 1968, any idea if that's correct?
Mooorhe 3 years ago
Nope no info on the picture either, (my collections must be as disorganized as yours :P) but I'd guess you were about right- maybe a couple years later though, as I've seen a pic from him in '68 and he looked even younger than this! But angles/facial hair can make a difference. :P Thanks! :D
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago
I get to be the first to comment. Thank you ShawDamon. Pavarotti has such beautiful and pristine voice. :) Exquisite!! I will add it to my favorites. :)
victoriasvintage 3 years ago 2
Yes, indeed. Thanks for listening. :)
ShawDAMAN 3 years ago