Trakabat, what's your agenda? You seem to be trying to be an investigative journalist without the investigation part. And why are your extremely partial videos embedded in a government department's website? I would have thought that DOC's role is to provide an informed position on pest control.
If 1080 was so good, why is it hidden in so much secrecy? And bad science is used to promote it, they'll not even allow peer reviewed studies - disappointing if not down-right criminally negligent. People wanting the truth - read "The Third Wave - Poisoning the Land" by W F Benfield
Hi spearfishies, 1080 is not hidden in secrecy. The science is actually good, I suggest that you look at the video and question the lack of science used by Clyde Graf in his false claim that a 1080 operation had caused large-scale destruction. When I checked his claim I found it was a fake.
@TrakaBat how was it offensive? i think you just deleted it so that no1 could see it because u knw it was right. Me and @ruby6300 were right about the matter and your to pathetic to realise what its doing? people like you are just gutless and should not have a say in matters such as this.
A good video well done, The Graf's are down here down on the west coast for the big 1080 drops on down here now, I am thinking of going into the areas with my video camera too, see what i can find or not find. I have been hunting on the coast for 20 years and lots of 1080 drops been done here over the years. Still got lots of deer here and loads of bird live.
Associate Professor Dianne Brunton, Director of the Ecology and Conservation group, Massey University, comments:
As with most conservation issues there are no silver bullets. I see 1080 as one tool (of many) in a very difficult fight against invasive pests and predators. 1080 is not the only way but it is very effective.
The alternative of no control would be disastrous for our native species rodents and stoats simply wipe out native birds and reptiles and invertebrates.
Trying to save them just like you, I do believe that 1080 is a disgusting and indiscriminate killer, one whose victims suffer miserably.
There are better and more humane ways of dealing with possums rats and stoats etc, and they can be cheaper, the only difference is that the bloke doing the hard yards is getting renumeration for it and no longer the fat cat politicians who have a vested interest in 1080
I'd really like to know about your thoughts on dealing with possums, rats and stoats on forest scales of 20,000 ha. Your implication of corruption is wrong.
just get in there and do the hard yards trakabat. set up perminant bait stations and traps. it might take a while but once they are there the work is easy.have people monitoring the stations and traps.think of the jobs it will create.there are better ways.
DOC does vastly more ground control in any given year than we do aerial. The places that we use aerial are not places that lend themselves to the installation and maintenance of huge numbers of bait stations and traps.
weather or not the grafs are correct in their statements, it is the DoC responsibility to ensure that birds are not poisoned and killed otherwise why are you dumping the stuff, dont tell me that birds are not killed because we both know that they are.
Secondry poisoning is a major issue.
The instructions state that the bodies of 1080 victims should be buried deeply and away from water sources or burnt.
I am a conservation savy person, I am not trying to kill off the native birds, I am merely
Secondary poisoning is actually a very minor issue. There have been heaps of water monitoring and no problems. Keeping forest habitat and food sources in good health are an obvious advantage to birds. Killing predators in years when their numbers build up during the bird-breeding season is and even bigger advantage.
So why then were the DoC made to dig up that large amount of 1080 baits that they buried?... oh hang on because it would have got into the water supply....why are the operators spreading it told not to drop it within 50metres of a water source, and yet it still does, it was originally systhesized to be used as an insecticide, which by the way is it very good at. Your main problem here is that insects are eaten by birds.........there have been plenty of Native and Exotic bird deaths from 1080
define normal use........there is no such thing as each case is different......Q?what happens when a bait is deflected by the forest canopy?..........A/ it bounces Q? where does it bounce to and in which direction......A/ WHO KNOWS
this is but one way the baits can enter the waterways.......operations rules and guidelines demand that baits stay out of the waterways and no closer than 50metres to one............Im tired of talking to a BRICKWALL........send your appoligies once you and DoC Forest and Bird AHB and all the local councils have destroyed all that you are fighting for........
The Grafs told the media that up to 12,000 birds had been killed in a single 1080 operation, but their method of arriving at this figure was wrong. If their extrapolation is applied to live birds in the area you get absurd numbers like 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork.
you say that the so called broken down components are naturally occuring......not in this country!
This has everything to do with TB it has to do with every concievable issue that arrises with the aerial spread of super toxins. The painted apple moth situation is a good one for examples, how many people and animals contracted serious health issues that were not present before the drops?
There are better ways to manage the so called pest populations, for instance
For the record I have said before that it does not break down.......merely dilutes and will sit in ground water, as to it not having harmed people I think you better make sure of your information, I for one know personally 2 people that have had issues after coming in contact with 1080.
Does it not say on the products information panel that the poison should not be aerially dispersed due to wind drift etc....1080 is a super toxin and should not be portrayed as anything else but.
Sure, last year I took a journalist into the 1080 operational area at Otira and took a soil sample. The sample showed zero contamination. Studies show that micro-organisms in New Zealand soils and in water will degrade 1080. Worst case the amount of 1080 remaining in soils is reduced by 50% every 80 days at 5°C, and it is much faster than that when its warmer. You are right to say 1080 dilutes. It is very soluble and the dispersal effect caused by dilution makes its breakdown more effective.
only one soil sample?........they should be taken from various locations and from different depths, you guys think you have all the answers with your green poison rain........there is no way you can possibly keep it out of all the waterways as you claim to do....fuelair I raise the question once again........how come we still have these birds and trees etc if the problem is so bad..........what happened before you started dumping this crap??
This was not the only sample ever taken inside a 1080 operational area. Reality is if these places were contaminated like you keep saying they are it would be very simple to detect. The reality is that you and other activists keep claiming contamination but you have not done the science. Your claim is a gross exaggeration.
ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE KILLED EVERYTHING WITH YOUR POISONS WILL YOU REALISE JUST HOW BAD THIS STUFF IS..... DDT, 245T, thalidomide.......great stuff?.......I THINK NOT.......1080 is the next major stuffup take my word for it.
Approx 15 years ago a petition was submitted for a bounty to be placed for possum tokens ie: a pair of ears, the bounty was suggested at perhaps NZ$2.50 to NZ$5.00 this was Discarded and we were told that it was not economically viable, even tho the average cost per possum rat etc when using 1080 and brodificoum is set somewhere between NZ$15.00 and $65.00 sometimes more.
and maybe there were........but you are still forgetting all the other birds in the bush........there are not only two native bird species.........theres tui, bellbird, kokako, kiwi, kaka, kea, bush robin, fantail, kereru, weka, falcon, morepork, longtailed cuckoo but to name a few. I dont think 12000 birds is absurd at all.........I have seen the destruction this stuff causes and I believe you and anyone promoting it should be charged with multiple counts of gross cruelty to animals and birds
absolutely no proof whatsoever, and yet you dribble on how possums are killing birds and eggs etc..well wake up mate, birds eat insects, some birds eat animal carcases and these can both be killed by 1080 hence secondry poisoning. As to your comment that 1080 is biodegradable this is a load of rubbish as it never disapears...how can it where does it disapear to?....it just gets diluted, itonly take 1 part per trillion to disturb gene formation. The only reason you drop the stuff is to make MONEY
@BAN1080POISON I am awake, mate. 1080 is biodegradable, it does not accumulate in the environment. This means it breaks down into components that are naturally in the environment. Good luck proving the trillionth dilution thing because 1080 is rapidly urinated. The only reason we drop 1080 is to protect forests from possums and to kill rats and stoats. By suppressing these pests we protects birds and their habitat.
continuation...after 50 to 60 years of operations there is still apossum problem.AHB say they use it for TB vectors, and yet TB is a bivine disease not a possum disease, and there is no evidence they carry it, I for one have never seen it in the thousands of possums I have shot, there is a possum processing company that has seen thousands and thousands of possum carcases and they have not seen one with TB, as for DoCs reasoning ther is no documented proof that 1080 poison is beficial to birdlife
Why is it that for the years preceeding 1080 operations there were no real problems with bird numbers? The birds were there and so were the possums and rats and stoart, ferrets etc etc how come approx 25 to 30 years ago the estimated possum population was around the 70 million mark and yet today the numbers have been estimated approx the same? Is the poison not doing its job in reducing possums numbers? come on there should by rights be no possums left after 50 to 60 years of operations..tbc
@BAN1080POISON Bird numbers were declining in NZ long before 1080 was used. All methods of pest control, no matter what they are, can only suppress pests. Eradication is not an option.
Nicola Vallance from DoC said obviously they are disappointed with the situation but "what is more frightening is to learn that 40% of kea nests are being wiped out by predators including possums...so we can't afford to do nothing."( NZ Herald Jul 30, 20080 40% a year means that they must have disappeared years ago. and you think the Graf guys are crazy. This is why I believe DOC makes it up as they go.
Alan Tennyson, is or was,among other things, Curator of Fossil Vertebrates at Te Papa, previously employed by DOCs' Threatened Species Unit and a conservation campaigner for Forest and Bird. Where may I find data about stoats eating meal? Or carrots
But what is your point regards Alan? If it was about him saying that humans have been the number one cause of the demise of birds in NZ, he's right, have a look at all the forest clearance and habitat destruction. But humans aren't the problem in the forests that have been protected. To answer your question - stoats are poisoned with 1080 when they eat poisoned rodents. They don't eat cereal or carrots.
It seems, maybe by some twisted logic that if the DOC really want to save birds, start targeting the animals that kill them the most.(not humans please) Possums kill some trees and eat nesting birds and eggs. They do not annihilate their habitat.There are still trees behind us here. In a gut survey of the stomach contents of 1514 stoats in NZ only 1-2% was carrion.
In the context of a protected forest Alans list is not right. Possums target high-energy food and break the continuity of food supply for birds across the seasons. Possums destroy entire rata forests. Stoats and rats destroy populations of birds. The combination of the three is diabolical.
On the Wikepedia site DOC reports that Possums, stoats and rats are the number one threats to native birds According to my book of Extinct NZ birds, written by Alan Tennyson, the cause of bird extinction in NZ is, in order, Humans, Rats and dare I mention them, the sacred NZ cat. The Possum, that gets all the attention is at the bottom of a long list (14th), 1080 apparently doesn't affect these top three killers. DOC needs to get its shit together and stop making it up as they go.
Possums destroy habitat, compete for food with birds, and they eat birds and eggs. Stoats kill 95% of kiwi chicks and any other bird they come across. Rats climb trees and kill females on the nests and eat eggs and chicks. 1080 is effective against all three of these predators in NZ. DOC is not making this up as it goes.
Using the Grafs method of extrapolation would mean that there would be at least 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork in this area following the 1080 operation because from my tent site in that forest I saw five kaka and heard three morepork - Id say the Grafs were wrong.
trakabat ..i never mentioned corruption u did ,,i said distorted figures .manipulation of data to suit ....Oh but that's ALREADY PROVEN as you know... Grafs have got the ball rolling and DOC know too well the groundswell of kiwis starting to realise what's happening will have them emigrating to the Auckland islands
trakabat .. get with it boy..Keep up on the news The OMBUDSMAN has no jurisdiction over the matter . That's all craftily changed to avoid just that happening
yes a total cop out ...The 1080 users can close all the doors to keep indiscriminately aerially applying this toxin but it will be banned as public awareness increases and world pressure and importers of our products say no more . simple
Trakabat.. You should know ian, re below to happyhellybell DOC ERMA ETC are not accountable to the ombudsman . Legislation has put them out of reach.There is considerable credible information showing DOC has distorted manipulated information .Just open your mind and take an educational trip out from under DOC'S wings..
You sure talk a load of nonsence, Gunnaterry. If happyhellybell, or the Grafs, or you, have evidence of corruption the place to take a complaint is to the Office of the Ombudsman.
Trakabat is simply a doc b/washed fool hu believes 1080 is the best thing since sliced bread.He also states in forest n bird that anti 1080 people have been successful by lying.,that they are as scarce as rocking horse shit. He and other pro 1080 people huddle round with their heads up each others asses ,locked up in their wee world tellin each other 1080 is good, .Fact-massive amt kiwis want it banned.fact banned near worldwide..We use 90% of world prod.fact-uas trying 2 close tull chemicals
The Grafs method of extrapolation would mean that there would be at least 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork in this area after the 1080 operation because from my tent site in that forest I saw five kaka and heard three morepork - Id say the Grafs were wrong.
7 birds...4 birds... 500 birds... they didn't die from 1080. Very few native birds have proven to be vulnerable to 1080 and those bait delivery techniques that have caused mortality (especially carrot and associated chaff ) have been discontinued in areas where known vulnerable species are present.
I'd like to point out that failure to detect 1080 in a carcass does not implicate an alternative cause of death! This is stated in studies in regards to birds when they say that over a certain period of time (perhaps only days) 1080 is no longer detectable! Largely because they often only need such a small dose to kill them in the first place! Here, 7 of the birds were natives but only 4 tested? Why werent they all tested? Doc should be testing all queried casualties!
Clutching at straws again, Happyhellybell. The Grafs delayed handing the birds in and they could have had the tests conducted themselves, but did not. The expert experience is that if there was enough toxin in the birds to kill it then there would have been toxin detected by the test. The Grafs were just wrong, they failed to demonstrate their claim, and its not the only time.
Im afraid its you thats clutching at straws Trakabat. 'The grafs had no reason to delay handing them in as the only benefit of that is if you wanted a negative result! However Doc had the birds for over 2 months before they got results! I'll say again, all 7 birds should have been tested by Doc. Its Doc's Responsibility, or perhaps they were all tested and they only got results for 4?! Bit odd isnt it! You know as well as I, that DoC dont want to find positive results! Its not in their interest!
You need to get your facts straight Happyhellybell - in September the Grafs made their silly media claim, they handed the birds over in November. It is not DOCs responsibility to test every bird handed over to it. The Grafs were wrong, they failed to demonstrate their claim that 12000 birds had been killed. They missled a lot of people.
Alrighty. I obviously have to cleanup a few things here...
1) So youre saying the birds were too old to show up the poison? In which case you're agreeing with me! The birds were frozen the day after they were found having checked with DoC that this was a suitable storing method. After handing in, DoC took two months to return the results, much longer than the 10 days they indicated. It's all too easy for DoC to hand back negative results or not test at all and they're off scot free!
Nope, the birds would have tested positive if they had been poisoned. What I said was the Grafs had the birds in September and they stored them until November. When the Grafs eventually handed them in they were dispatched for testing and the results came back in January.
2) As for DoC... They should have tested every one of the birds! If they're meant to protect them while they're alive, they certainly have to find out what killed them! Or is that where the responsibilities end? They were only assuming they died from cold in the middle of a poison drop! Did the rat also die of cold?! Perhaps in fact all the birds were tested and they only wanted to show 3 of the results! How would we know?!
3) I happen to know that one of the birds found, was lying dead in green pig vomit that was full of baits! (A known fact of course that birds have died from eating poisoned vomit) but a strange coincidence... maybe it was just laying in it to keep warm before freezing to death! Another point... how do you explain the bird deaths in other drop zones where there wasnt snow? Excessive rain? Extreme winds? Mass suicide bird cult perhaps?!?
4) As for the 12,000 figure, the Grafs had not misled anybody! They didnt say that was how many had died, they clearly stated that as many as 12,000 could have died! Approximations that are just as sound as DoC's given the visual evidence! So what you are suggesting then is that DoC are constantly misleading the public, as a lot of their figures are based on threats and assumptions, Ive read plenty of the studies!
The Grafs made a dumb extrapolation and they were wrong. They have done a similar thing in their anti-1080 DVD. They sure have misled a lot of people.
You ignorant fool! I absolutely can not beleive your arrogance! DoC's salaries are obviously astronomical for you to say such foolish things! Here you are insulting people who are ACTUALLY trying to save our natives birds, and you sit here and try and tell people that poison is the way! No ones saying dont kill the pests but you're killing it all with 1080! DoC have missled the public for years and used tax payers money to do it.
Happyhellybell, the Grafs are not trying to save native birds. If you have some evidence that DOC has misled the public take your complaint to the Office of the Ombudsman. Otherwise can it.
The truth never hurts, Happyhellybell: I've checked on the Graf's oddball idea that 12000 birds were killed, they had no evidence to demonstrate their claim.
5)As u work for DoC, you'll be well aware of the cover-ups in relation to stock losses. They've occurred from northland to southland. Some people have had 2 sign confidentiality agreements, others, told 2 make invoices out as track maintenance, stock feed etc, not as 1080 deaths. These drops take place on DoC land, they must be well aware of it. Bird deaths of course r far easier to cover up, theyre in the forest. One could simply not find them, push them in a hole, put it down to predation etc
Happyhellybell, I saw all that stuff you are parroting in the Graf's DVD, have you got an original thought of your own? I'm not aware of a single cover-up. But, at any rate wouldn't that have to be the most pathetic cover-up in history?
Yes it would be! you're absolutely right! The sad part is that if you genuinely dont know about these cover ups that you cant actually know whats going on in your own department! I know this stuff to be absolute fact! I'm not parroting on as yoúd like to think, it might occur to you tho, that there are several of us that do actually believe the same thing! More every day! The sooner you realise it the better!
If we were to use the Grafs method of extrapolation there would currently be at least 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork in this area after the 1080 operation because from my tent site in that forest I saw five kaka and heard three morepork - Id say the Grafs were wrong.
Then why is 1080 banned in most Countries?If it was so harmless there would be no outcry such as has been,Is someones income so important as to soil New Zealand?I find it sad to defend a lethal poison that is killing everything but what it was intended for.
its not the only way to control those predators its just the easiest way for you clowns to "control" them. you are all just lazy mo fos, there are enough people in this country that will be willing to do the work involved in controling these pest in one of the many alternative ways. you said ealier in your coments "the graf bros have misled alot of people" i think your previous coment is whats misleding mr trakabat.
Okay, how would you save birds over an area of 20,000 hectares from rats and stoats? We already do a huge amount of ground control and we already have a lot of those willing people currently working in pest management. Weve done that for years. We use aerial 1080 in places were that is the most efficient method to get the gains needed. Nothing wrong with efficiency is there?
no there is nothing wrong with efficiency. im a full time possum trapper so i know about been efficient but at what cost trakabat. im not saying ban all poison but we need to control it better.ariel drops are so destructive to deer,pigs,dogs and any other animal that is unluck to eat it, its just so random. im sure there is a way to better control these pests that comes within the bugget used each year for aerial drops that could please both pro and anti aerial 1080.
I like the way you're thinking. My suspicion is that technology has already peaked. If thats the case then DOCs current programme seems about right; it protects specific things in well-defined areas triggered by pest/predator rises. There are 45,000 deer shot for tucker/sport/export in NZ every year. Hunters do work around the temporary inconvenience and the food-basket isnt in jeopardy. People just need to work together a bit more.
When we were monitoring the effect of the drop, WE FOUND DEAD BIRDS ONLY IN THE DROP ZONE AREA. None out side it. Birds were only "frozen", inside the drop zone.
There was no secret that the birds were from the graf boys, as you try to insinuate. The drop was over 12,000 hectares. We found 9 birds, 1 rat, & NO possums, over about 10 hectares. The mention in newspaper item was an analogy of doc's methodology of counting. Using the same way doc estimates possum numbers. It was tongue in cheek.
1080 poison was aerially dropped directly into the snow, & across the streams, in an easily accessable area, off the side of the Rainbow ski field rd. Baits were clearly visible in the snow. Kea & other native birds lived in the area. A large number of dead birds were found, & others had been scavenged. It was a Sunday when we left, so the birds were left with a friend to hand in. We were informed tests take about 10 days to be returned. It was over 2 months before the results came back!!!!
Trakabat, what's your agenda? You seem to be trying to be an investigative journalist without the investigation part. And why are your extremely partial videos embedded in a government department's website? I would have thought that DOC's role is to provide an informed position on pest control.
jrobinnz 3 months ago
If 1080 was so good, why is it hidden in so much secrecy? And bad science is used to promote it, they'll not even allow peer reviewed studies - disappointing if not down-right criminally negligent. People wanting the truth - read "The Third Wave - Poisoning the Land" by W F Benfield
spearfishies 4 months ago
Hi spearfishies, 1080 is not hidden in secrecy. The science is actually good, I suggest that you look at the video and question the lack of science used by Clyde Graf in his false claim that a 1080 operation had caused large-scale destruction. When I checked his claim I found it was a fake.
TrakaBat 3 months ago
@TrakaBat wow that shows how pathetic you are doesnt it. grow some balls if u cant handle a swear word.
lifesaboar3 9 months ago
@TrakaBat how was it offensive? i think you just deleted it so that no1 could see it because u knw it was right. Me and @ruby6300 were right about the matter and your to pathetic to realise what its doing? people like you are just gutless and should not have a say in matters such as this.
lifesaboar3 9 months ago
@lifesaboar3, take out the offensive swearing and resubmit it.
TrakaBat 9 months ago
@lifesaboar3 your offensive comment has been removed.
TrakaBat 9 months ago
Well done good to hear some common sense, facts not fiction.cheers
tairuapete 1 year ago
@tairuapete thanks for the support.
TrakaBat 1 year ago
A good video well done, The Graf's are down here down on the west coast for the big 1080 drops on down here now, I am thinking of going into the areas with my video camera too, see what i can find or not find. I have been hunting on the coast for 20 years and lots of 1080 drops been done here over the years. Still got lots of deer here and loads of bird live.
WayneNoble2 1 year ago
@WayneNoble2, awesome, I'll look forward to seeing your videos, stay in touch.
TrakaBat 1 year ago
@MrNgm12345 were these places where 1080 was dropped or placed in stations and traps?
frogfurz 1 year ago
Grafs right ,this is just more dept of con ,propaganda via there pr man trakabat.
a shame other folks fighting this deadly poison dont have the same backing and access to professional propaganda machines
ruby6300 1 year ago
The Graf brothers claimed a single operation near Nelson Lakes had killed 12,700 birds.... boy were they wrong.
TrakaBat 1 year ago
@mznucutie69 agreee... they hav found a way to decrease.. bt the thing is ... it was nt only for possum.. they are still researching
Scallop10v3 2 years ago
ur killing my deer BAT BOY
TheTamaiti 2 years ago
Associate Professor Dianne Brunton, Director of the Ecology and Conservation group, Massey University, comments:
As with most conservation issues there are no silver bullets. I see 1080 as one tool (of many) in a very difficult fight against invasive pests and predators. 1080 is not the only way but it is very effective.
The alternative of no control would be disastrous for our native species rodents and stoats simply wipe out native birds and reptiles and invertebrates.
fuelairexplosion 2 years ago
Trying to save them just like you, I do believe that 1080 is a disgusting and indiscriminate killer, one whose victims suffer miserably.
There are better and more humane ways of dealing with possums rats and stoats etc, and they can be cheaper, the only difference is that the bloke doing the hard yards is getting renumeration for it and no longer the fat cat politicians who have a vested interest in 1080
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
I'd really like to know about your thoughts on dealing with possums, rats and stoats on forest scales of 20,000 ha. Your implication of corruption is wrong.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
just get in there and do the hard yards trakabat. set up perminant bait stations and traps. it might take a while but once they are there the work is easy.have people monitoring the stations and traps.think of the jobs it will create.there are better ways.
swttwoinch 2 years ago
DOC does vastly more ground control in any given year than we do aerial. The places that we use aerial are not places that lend themselves to the installation and maintenance of huge numbers of bait stations and traps.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
you my friend are a joke
wapitiman100 2 years ago
weather or not the grafs are correct in their statements, it is the DoC responsibility to ensure that birds are not poisoned and killed otherwise why are you dumping the stuff, dont tell me that birds are not killed because we both know that they are.
Secondry poisoning is a major issue.
The instructions state that the bodies of 1080 victims should be buried deeply and away from water sources or burnt.
I am a conservation savy person, I am not trying to kill off the native birds, I am merely
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
Secondary poisoning is actually a very minor issue. There have been heaps of water monitoring and no problems. Keeping forest habitat and food sources in good health are an obvious advantage to birds. Killing predators in years when their numbers build up during the bird-breeding season is and even bigger advantage.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
So why then were the DoC made to dig up that large amount of 1080 baits that they buried?... oh hang on because it would have got into the water supply....why are the operators spreading it told not to drop it within 50metres of a water source, and yet it still does, it was originally systhesized to be used as an insecticide, which by the way is it very good at. Your main problem here is that insects are eaten by birds.........there have been plenty of Native and Exotic bird deaths from 1080
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
In normal use none of that is actually a problem.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
define normal use........there is no such thing as each case is different......Q?what happens when a bait is deflected by the forest canopy?..........A/ it bounces Q? where does it bounce to and in which direction......A/ WHO KNOWS
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
So what if a bait is defected by the canopy and bounces.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
DEFLECTED NOT DEFECTED
this is but one way the baits can enter the waterways.......operations rules and guidelines demand that baits stay out of the waterways and no closer than 50metres to one............Im tired of talking to a BRICKWALL........send your appoligies once you and DoC Forest and Bird AHB and all the local councils have destroyed all that you are fighting for........
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
Actually, the requirement is that 1080 baits are not deposited within at least 20 metres of major waterways during aerial applications.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
The Grafs told the media that up to 12,000 birds had been killed in a single 1080 operation, but their method of arriving at this figure was wrong. If their extrapolation is applied to live birds in the area you get absurd numbers like 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
you say that the so called broken down components are naturally occuring......not in this country!
This has everything to do with TB it has to do with every concievable issue that arrises with the aerial spread of super toxins. The painted apple moth situation is a good one for examples, how many people and animals contracted serious health issues that were not present before the drops?
There are better ways to manage the so called pest populations, for instance
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
Okay, tell us, what do you think 1080 breaks down into?
Zero people have developed serious illness as a result of aerial 1080 use in NZ. That's a 50-year record.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
For the record I have said before that it does not break down.......merely dilutes and will sit in ground water, as to it not having harmed people I think you better make sure of your information, I for one know personally 2 people that have had issues after coming in contact with 1080.
Does it not say on the products information panel that the poison should not be aerially dispersed due to wind drift etc....1080 is a super toxin and should not be portrayed as anything else but.
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
Well you are wrong.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
PROVE IT
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
Sure, last year I took a journalist into the 1080 operational area at Otira and took a soil sample. The sample showed zero contamination. Studies show that micro-organisms in New Zealand soils and in water will degrade 1080. Worst case the amount of 1080 remaining in soils is reduced by 50% every 80 days at 5°C, and it is much faster than that when its warmer. You are right to say 1080 dilutes. It is very soluble and the dispersal effect caused by dilution makes its breakdown more effective.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
only one soil sample?........they should be taken from various locations and from different depths, you guys think you have all the answers with your green poison rain........there is no way you can possibly keep it out of all the waterways as you claim to do....fuelair I raise the question once again........how come we still have these birds and trees etc if the problem is so bad..........what happened before you started dumping this crap??
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
This was not the only sample ever taken inside a 1080 operational area. Reality is if these places were contaminated like you keep saying they are it would be very simple to detect. The reality is that you and other activists keep claiming contamination but you have not done the science. Your claim is a gross exaggeration.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE KILLED EVERYTHING WITH YOUR POISONS WILL YOU REALISE JUST HOW BAD THIS STUFF IS..... DDT, 245T, thalidomide.......great stuff?.......I THINK NOT.......1080 is the next major stuffup take my word for it.
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
1080 is nothing like any of those substances, nor is it used in the same way as them. 1080 breaks down in the environment it does not accumulate.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Approx 15 years ago a petition was submitted for a bounty to be placed for possum tokens ie: a pair of ears, the bounty was suggested at perhaps NZ$2.50 to NZ$5.00 this was Discarded and we were told that it was not economically viable, even tho the average cost per possum rat etc when using 1080 and brodificoum is set somewhere between NZ$15.00 and $65.00 sometimes more.
Bring on a bountry system,
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
Possum bounties were used and they were a failure.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
and maybe there were........but you are still forgetting all the other birds in the bush........there are not only two native bird species.........theres tui, bellbird, kokako, kiwi, kaka, kea, bush robin, fantail, kereru, weka, falcon, morepork, longtailed cuckoo but to name a few. I dont think 12000 birds is absurd at all.........I have seen the destruction this stuff causes and I believe you and anyone promoting it should be charged with multiple counts of gross cruelty to animals and birds
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
I didn't forget the other birds. The Grafs were absurdly wrong in their media claims.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
TrakaBat is absurdly wrong with his claims
TheTamaiti 2 years ago
Which ones?
TrakaBat 2 years ago
absolutely no proof whatsoever, and yet you dribble on how possums are killing birds and eggs etc..well wake up mate, birds eat insects, some birds eat animal carcases and these can both be killed by 1080 hence secondry poisoning. As to your comment that 1080 is biodegradable this is a load of rubbish as it never disapears...how can it where does it disapear to?....it just gets diluted, itonly take 1 part per trillion to disturb gene formation. The only reason you drop the stuff is to make MONEY
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
@BAN1080POISON I am awake, mate. 1080 is biodegradable, it does not accumulate in the environment. This means it breaks down into components that are naturally in the environment. Good luck proving the trillionth dilution thing because 1080 is rapidly urinated. The only reason we drop 1080 is to protect forests from possums and to kill rats and stoats. By suppressing these pests we protects birds and their habitat.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
continuation...after 50 to 60 years of operations there is still apossum problem.AHB say they use it for TB vectors, and yet TB is a bivine disease not a possum disease, and there is no evidence they carry it, I for one have never seen it in the thousands of possums I have shot, there is a possum processing company that has seen thousands and thousands of possum carcases and they have not seen one with TB, as for DoCs reasoning ther is no documented proof that 1080 poison is beficial to birdlife
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
@BAN1080POISON - I'm not dealing with TB here. Actually we do have proof that 1080 benifits birds.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Why is it that for the years preceeding 1080 operations there were no real problems with bird numbers? The birds were there and so were the possums and rats and stoart, ferrets etc etc how come approx 25 to 30 years ago the estimated possum population was around the 70 million mark and yet today the numbers have been estimated approx the same? Is the poison not doing its job in reducing possums numbers? come on there should by rights be no possums left after 50 to 60 years of operations..tbc
BAN1080POISON 2 years ago
@BAN1080POISON Bird numbers were declining in NZ long before 1080 was used. All methods of pest control, no matter what they are, can only suppress pests. Eradication is not an option.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Nicola Vallance from DoC said obviously they are disappointed with the situation but "what is more frightening is to learn that 40% of kea nests are being wiped out by predators including possums...so we can't afford to do nothing."( NZ Herald Jul 30, 20080 40% a year means that they must have disappeared years ago. and you think the Graf guys are crazy. This is why I believe DOC makes it up as they go.
waiotahi52 2 years ago
Kea produce more than a single egg at a time and they can have a couple of nesting attempts per season.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Alan Tennyson, is or was,among other things, Curator of Fossil Vertebrates at Te Papa, previously employed by DOCs' Threatened Species Unit and a conservation campaigner for Forest and Bird. Where may I find data about stoats eating meal? Or carrots
waiotahi52 2 years ago
But what is your point regards Alan? If it was about him saying that humans have been the number one cause of the demise of birds in NZ, he's right, have a look at all the forest clearance and habitat destruction. But humans aren't the problem in the forests that have been protected. To answer your question - stoats are poisoned with 1080 when they eat poisoned rodents. They don't eat cereal or carrots.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
It's not that complex. He puts the order at
1 humans
2 rats
3 cats
6 stoats
14th possums.
It seems, maybe by some twisted logic that if the DOC really want to save birds, start targeting the animals that kill them the most.(not humans please) Possums kill some trees and eat nesting birds and eggs. They do not annihilate their habitat.There are still trees behind us here. In a gut survey of the stomach contents of 1514 stoats in NZ only 1-2% was carrion.
waiotahi52 2 years ago
In the context of a protected forest Alans list is not right. Possums target high-energy food and break the continuity of food supply for birds across the seasons. Possums destroy entire rata forests. Stoats and rats destroy populations of birds. The combination of the three is diabolical.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
I guess old Alan Tennyson don't know his bum from his elbow then. I thought he worked for the Department
waiotahi52 2 years ago
What do you mean?
TrakaBat 2 years ago
ERMA. A retired Diplomat, a Lawyer. a Chemist and a guy with a Doctorate in Maori studies.
Do they dish out building permits as well?
waiotahi52 2 years ago
No Waiotahi - the Environmental Risk Management Authority in NZ does not issue building permits.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
On the Wikepedia site DOC reports that Possums, stoats and rats are the number one threats to native birds According to my book of Extinct NZ birds, written by Alan Tennyson, the cause of bird extinction in NZ is, in order, Humans, Rats and dare I mention them, the sacred NZ cat. The Possum, that gets all the attention is at the bottom of a long list (14th), 1080 apparently doesn't affect these top three killers. DOC needs to get its shit together and stop making it up as they go.
waiotahi52 2 years ago
Possums destroy habitat, compete for food with birds, and they eat birds and eggs. Stoats kill 95% of kiwi chicks and any other bird they come across. Rats climb trees and kill females on the nests and eat eggs and chicks. 1080 is effective against all three of these predators in NZ. DOC is not making this up as it goes.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Using the Grafs method of extrapolation would mean that there would be at least 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork in this area following the 1080 operation because from my tent site in that forest I saw five kaka and heard three morepork - Id say the Grafs were wrong.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
trakabat ..i never mentioned corruption u did ,,i said distorted figures .manipulation of data to suit ....Oh but that's ALREADY PROVEN as you know... Grafs have got the ball rolling and DOC know too well the groundswell of kiwis starting to realise what's happening will have them emigrating to the Auckland islands
gunnaterry 2 years ago
The data is public domain information. What data has been manipulated, when, who? You are big on accusations, small on details, Gunnaterry
TrakaBat 2 years ago
trakabat .. get with it boy..Keep up on the news The OMBUDSMAN has no jurisdiction over the matter . That's all craftily changed to avoid just that happening
gunnaterry 2 years ago
What a cop out, Gunnaterry.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
yes a total cop out ...The 1080 users can close all the doors to keep indiscriminately aerially applying this toxin but it will be banned as public awareness increases and world pressure and importers of our products say no more . simple
gunnaterry 2 years ago
Gunnaterry, your claim that the Ombudsman has no jurisdiction is silly - it is a cop out to mask the fact that your accusations don't stack up.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Trakabat.. You should know ian, re below to happyhellybell DOC ERMA ETC are not accountable to the ombudsman . Legislation has put them out of reach.There is considerable credible information showing DOC has distorted manipulated information .Just open your mind and take an educational trip out from under DOC'S wings..
gunnaterry 2 years ago
You sure talk a load of nonsence, Gunnaterry. If happyhellybell, or the Grafs, or you, have evidence of corruption the place to take a complaint is to the Office of the Ombudsman.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
u tell em gunnaterry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
westcoastpighunt 2 years ago
Gunnaterry removed some of the spam from my videos and has been unblocked, let's look forward to some meaningful comment.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Trakabat is simply a doc b/washed fool hu believes 1080 is the best thing since sliced bread.He also states in forest n bird that anti 1080 people have been successful by lying.,that they are as scarce as rocking horse shit. He and other pro 1080 people huddle round with their heads up each others asses ,locked up in their wee world tellin each other 1080 is good, .Fact-massive amt kiwis want it banned.fact banned near worldwide..We use 90% of world prod.fact-uas trying 2 close tull chemicals
gunnaterry 2 years ago
Gunnaterry has been spamming my videos with abusive nonsence and has been blocked.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
The Grafs method of extrapolation would mean that there would be at least 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork in this area after the 1080 operation because from my tent site in that forest I saw five kaka and heard three morepork - Id say the Grafs were wrong.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
7 birds...4 birds... 500 birds... they didn't die from 1080. Very few native birds have proven to be vulnerable to 1080 and those bait delivery techniques that have caused mortality (especially carrot and associated chaff ) have been discontinued in areas where known vulnerable species are present.
birdscantalk 2 years ago
I'd like to point out that failure to detect 1080 in a carcass does not implicate an alternative cause of death! This is stated in studies in regards to birds when they say that over a certain period of time (perhaps only days) 1080 is no longer detectable! Largely because they often only need such a small dose to kill them in the first place! Here, 7 of the birds were natives but only 4 tested? Why werent they all tested? Doc should be testing all queried casualties!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
Clutching at straws again, Happyhellybell. The Grafs delayed handing the birds in and they could have had the tests conducted themselves, but did not. The expert experience is that if there was enough toxin in the birds to kill it then there would have been toxin detected by the test. The Grafs were just wrong, they failed to demonstrate their claim, and its not the only time.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Im afraid its you thats clutching at straws Trakabat. 'The grafs had no reason to delay handing them in as the only benefit of that is if you wanted a negative result! However Doc had the birds for over 2 months before they got results! I'll say again, all 7 birds should have been tested by Doc. Its Doc's Responsibility, or perhaps they were all tested and they only got results for 4?! Bit odd isnt it! You know as well as I, that DoC dont want to find positive results! Its not in their interest!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
You need to get your facts straight Happyhellybell - in September the Grafs made their silly media claim, they handed the birds over in November. It is not DOCs responsibility to test every bird handed over to it. The Grafs were wrong, they failed to demonstrate their claim that 12000 birds had been killed. They missled a lot of people.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Alrighty. I obviously have to cleanup a few things here...
1) So youre saying the birds were too old to show up the poison? In which case you're agreeing with me! The birds were frozen the day after they were found having checked with DoC that this was a suitable storing method. After handing in, DoC took two months to return the results, much longer than the 10 days they indicated. It's all too easy for DoC to hand back negative results or not test at all and they're off scot free!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
Nope, the birds would have tested positive if they had been poisoned. What I said was the Grafs had the birds in September and they stored them until November. When the Grafs eventually handed them in they were dispatched for testing and the results came back in January.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
2) As for DoC... They should have tested every one of the birds! If they're meant to protect them while they're alive, they certainly have to find out what killed them! Or is that where the responsibilities end? They were only assuming they died from cold in the middle of a poison drop! Did the rat also die of cold?! Perhaps in fact all the birds were tested and they only wanted to show 3 of the results! How would we know?!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
No, DOC isn't going to test every bird handed in. Who cares what the rat died of.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
3) I happen to know that one of the birds found, was lying dead in green pig vomit that was full of baits! (A known fact of course that birds have died from eating poisoned vomit) but a strange coincidence... maybe it was just laying in it to keep warm before freezing to death! Another point... how do you explain the bird deaths in other drop zones where there wasnt snow? Excessive rain? Extreme winds? Mass suicide bird cult perhaps?!?
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
Bird's aren't imortal they do die.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
4) As for the 12,000 figure, the Grafs had not misled anybody! They didnt say that was how many had died, they clearly stated that as many as 12,000 could have died! Approximations that are just as sound as DoC's given the visual evidence! So what you are suggesting then is that DoC are constantly misleading the public, as a lot of their figures are based on threats and assumptions, Ive read plenty of the studies!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
The Grafs made a dumb extrapolation and they were wrong. They have done a similar thing in their anti-1080 DVD. They sure have misled a lot of people.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
You ignorant fool! I absolutely can not beleive your arrogance! DoC's salaries are obviously astronomical for you to say such foolish things! Here you are insulting people who are ACTUALLY trying to save our natives birds, and you sit here and try and tell people that poison is the way! No ones saying dont kill the pests but you're killing it all with 1080! DoC have missled the public for years and used tax payers money to do it.
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
Happyhellybell, the Grafs are not trying to save native birds. If you have some evidence that DOC has misled the public take your complaint to the Office of the Ombudsman. Otherwise can it.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Well its obvious you dont like what you're hearing, I'm afraid truth hurts!... I'm done here.!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
The truth never hurts, Happyhellybell: I've checked on the Graf's oddball idea that 12000 birds were killed, they had no evidence to demonstrate their claim.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
5)As u work for DoC, you'll be well aware of the cover-ups in relation to stock losses. They've occurred from northland to southland. Some people have had 2 sign confidentiality agreements, others, told 2 make invoices out as track maintenance, stock feed etc, not as 1080 deaths. These drops take place on DoC land, they must be well aware of it. Bird deaths of course r far easier to cover up, theyre in the forest. One could simply not find them, push them in a hole, put it down to predation etc
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
Happyhellybell, I saw all that stuff you are parroting in the Graf's DVD, have you got an original thought of your own? I'm not aware of a single cover-up. But, at any rate wouldn't that have to be the most pathetic cover-up in history?
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Yes it would be! you're absolutely right! The sad part is that if you genuinely dont know about these cover ups that you cant actually know whats going on in your own department! I know this stuff to be absolute fact! I'm not parroting on as yoúd like to think, it might occur to you tho, that there are several of us that do actually believe the same thing! More every day! The sooner you realise it the better!
Happyhellybell 2 years ago
If we were to use the Grafs method of extrapolation there would currently be at least 6000 kaka and 3600 morepork in this area after the 1080 operation because from my tent site in that forest I saw five kaka and heard three morepork - Id say the Grafs were wrong.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
no you saw the same kaka 5 times and the same morepork 3 times aye? tell the truth? oh wait, you cant do that you work for doc!
swttwoinch 2 years ago
Nope - I saw a flock of five kaka and heard three morepork.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Then why is 1080 banned in most Countries?If it was so harmless there would be no outcry such as has been,Is someones income so important as to soil New Zealand?I find it sad to defend a lethal poison that is killing everything but what it was intended for.
Bobofet241 2 years ago
What a load of twaddle, Bobofet24. Who put those messages in your head?
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Is 1080 still being used?
Bobofet241 2 years ago
Yes, without it NZ's rare native birds get killed by introduced predators. It's biodegradable and does not get in the food chain.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
its not the only way to control those predators its just the easiest way for you clowns to "control" them. you are all just lazy mo fos, there are enough people in this country that will be willing to do the work involved in controling these pest in one of the many alternative ways. you said ealier in your coments "the graf bros have misled alot of people" i think your previous coment is whats misleding mr trakabat.
swttwoinch 2 years ago
Okay, how would you save birds over an area of 20,000 hectares from rats and stoats? We already do a huge amount of ground control and we already have a lot of those willing people currently working in pest management. Weve done that for years. We use aerial 1080 in places were that is the most efficient method to get the gains needed. Nothing wrong with efficiency is there?
TrakaBat 2 years ago
no there is nothing wrong with efficiency. im a full time possum trapper so i know about been efficient but at what cost trakabat. im not saying ban all poison but we need to control it better.ariel drops are so destructive to deer,pigs,dogs and any other animal that is unluck to eat it, its just so random. im sure there is a way to better control these pests that comes within the bugget used each year for aerial drops that could please both pro and anti aerial 1080.
swttwoinch 2 years ago
I like the way you're thinking. My suspicion is that technology has already peaked. If thats the case then DOCs current programme seems about right; it protects specific things in well-defined areas triggered by pest/predator rises. There are 45,000 deer shot for tucker/sport/export in NZ every year. Hunters do work around the temporary inconvenience and the food-basket isnt in jeopardy. People just need to work together a bit more.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Like the vid says four of the natives were tests for 1080, nothing, nil, zero. It was extremely cold. We know what happens to birds in the cold.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
There can be no excuse for the Graf brothers spreading missinformation in this way. Stin64, what you describe is not monitoring.
TrakaBat 2 years ago
Hi stin64 what did you think about the bird song at Six Mile Scenic Reserve?
birdscantalk 2 years ago
When we were monitoring the effect of the drop, WE FOUND DEAD BIRDS ONLY IN THE DROP ZONE AREA. None out side it. Birds were only "frozen", inside the drop zone.
There was no secret that the birds were from the graf boys, as you try to insinuate. The drop was over 12,000 hectares. We found 9 birds, 1 rat, & NO possums, over about 10 hectares. The mention in newspaper item was an analogy of doc's methodology of counting. Using the same way doc estimates possum numbers. It was tongue in cheek.
stin64 2 years ago
1080 poison was aerially dropped directly into the snow, & across the streams, in an easily accessable area, off the side of the Rainbow ski field rd. Baits were clearly visible in the snow. Kea & other native birds lived in the area. A large number of dead birds were found, & others had been scavenged. It was a Sunday when we left, so the birds were left with a friend to hand in. We were informed tests take about 10 days to be returned. It was over 2 months before the results came back!!!!
stin64 2 years ago