Debate with Campbellite Preachers #1: Was "Master-Spirit" Alexander Campbell a Baptist?

[lunabranwen]

baptismal salvation means that man is involved in our salvation.

[CAnswersTV]

@JonahTorn Predestination by God is obvious & Biblical (Ephesians 1:1-11) for without it no one would currently be a Christian. For example, God predestined that He would by His sovereign choice (not Paul's) appear on the road to Damascus to Saul (later to become Paul) & tell him what to do (Acts 9:3-6). God then predestined that Ananias take Saul in (Acts 9:10-16). God then predestined that Paul be filled with the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). God saves not baptism.

[CAnswersTV]

@JonahTorn You simply don't understand what the Bible is talking about in Acts 19:1-6 & that's why you come up with all this tortured reasoning which proves nothing. By the way, I noticed you had nothing to say about Acts 9 & God's sovereignty in bringing Saul into Christianity. Saul was going to Damascus to attack Christians, not become one, get it? Here in Acts 19 Paul explains what John's baptism referred to & had them baptized into Christ as Christians should. Laying of hands, not baptism.

[CAnswersTV]

@JonahTorn Here's the "inspired" reasoning from God, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated ... I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy ... Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, & whom He will He hardeneth ... Hath not the potter power over the clay ... vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." (Romans 9:13-23)

[CAnswersTV]

@JonahTorn The only one "cherry picking" is you. You ignore the facts of Romans 9:13-23, you ignore God's Word in Acts 9 about God intentionally choosing Paul (not the other way around until AFTER God changed Paul's mind) & here in Acts 19 you IGNORE the fact that these people were not Christians until AFTER Paul laid hands on them & THEN they were filled by the Holy Spirit & became real Christians (not at baptism). You IGNORE the fact that some people are saved by God & some not (Acts 13:48).

[horseman528]

In 2 Kings 5, where Naaman the leper was told to go dip in the River Jordan 7 times to heal his leprosy, would Naaman's faith had been complete if he had not gone and dipped in the Jordan River? Of course not. Had he not obeyed the words of the prophet, his leprosy would have never been cleansed. A faith that saves is a faith that obeys. Rom. 6:17

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 As a Campbellite it's obvious that you TRUST your OBEDIENCES (read "WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS") for your salvation, i.e. WATER BAPTISM, "CHURCH OF CHRIST" attendance, non-use of mechanical instruments of music during the "worship service", etc. The very fact that you use Naaman as an example & misquote Romans 6:17 (see Hebrews 11:32 concerning Samson) shows you think Christian salvation comes by OBEDIENCES (Ephesians 2:8-10) which is a false gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). Repent or perish.

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV Lets see what Rom. 6:17 says "But God be thanked that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness." In Heb. 11 we are given examples of faith all of which involved obedience. Eph. 2:8-10 means we cannot be saved by meritorius works. Obedience to the gospel is not a meritorius work, its an act of faith.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 I noticed that you didn't answer my specific question about Samson & why was that? All you really gave me is the typical Campbellite "smoke & mirrors" line (which people who have never been truly supernaturally indwelt by the Holy Spirit must do by the way) by equivocating "works" with "faith" so you can escape the full impact of "unmerited favor" meaning GRACE (Eph 2 cf Galatians & the Judaizers). So then, ANSWER the question! What specific "meritorius work" of faith saved Samson?

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV Samson lived under the old covenant of Moses and he kept the vow of the Nazarite not to cut his hair or eat any unclean thing or drink alcohol. As long as he obeyed these requirements, the Spirit of God was with him. His own lust eventually led to his downfall by trusting in foreign women. By faith Samson obeyed God by keeping the vows of the Nazarite. Now you answer my question, what do you think one must do in order to be saved? Nothing? James 2: 17-26

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 Your so-called "answer" about Samson leaves more questions than it answers! You say "as long as he obeyed these requirements" yet Samson CONTINUALLY DISOBEYED those REQUIREMENTS throughout his life (Judges 13-16) BUT still had God's power anyway until his hair was cut. Thus Samson is sleeping with whores, marrying bad women, committing murder because of bad temper tantrums yet is STILL considered a man of FAITH (Heb 11). His OBEDIENCES had nothing to do with his salvation, get it?

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV I think I get what you're saying. In other words, we do not have to obey God in order to be saved since you said that obediences had nothing to do with salvation. Gotcha! I guess Hitler has a shot at heaven then. Rom 6:16 know ye not that whom ye yield yourselves to OBEY, his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY whether sin unto death or of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 Wow, again you AVOID answering the question put forward to you about Samson. Instead of answering the question you LAMELY quote Romans 6:16 (without regard to context or soteriology) & talk about Hitler! Please tell YT readers WHEN & WHY Samson was SAVED & WHAT did he DO to obtain his SALVATION when all the while he was MURDERING & ROBBING people, SLEEPING WITH WHORES, DISOBEYING HIS PARENTS, VIOLATING MARRIAGE REQUIREMENTS, etc. Come on Mr. "Work Your Way to Heaven" man, tell us!

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV Samson suffered consequences for his behavior. Evidently Samson was not too bright but he was an instument of God's wrath against the Philistines. Luke 12: 47-48 tells us that we will be judged according to how much we are given. Samson didn't have much on the ball mentally since Delilah tricked him 4 times and he didn't catch on. I think when Samson prayed his last prayer he repented and God forgave him.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 Let me get this straight, you're saying Samson was stupid but was used by God & thus he got himself saved with a quick prayer right before the temple fell on him, but before that MOMENT he was lost & going to hell, right? So Samson's saving FAITH that led to SALVATION was a PRAYER he performed MOMENTS before death, right? What IF Samson had NOT died at that MOMENT but rather lived on to commit MORE WHORING, ROBBING, MURDERING, ETC., would you say he was still SAVED by his prayer?

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV Heres a question for you. If man has no free will and God chooses who He will save and who will be damned, then why doesn't He choose for all men to be saved? 2 Peter 3:9 says He is not willing that ANY should perish. If you tell me he is speaking of only the Elect that can't be right because the Elect are already saved. In other words, God would not have to worry about any of the Elect perishing in the first place since God has already saved them.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 You need to watch our 4 hr televised debate on VIMEO VIDEO entitled, "Did Jesus Die for Everybody Who Ever Lived? Debate" (this debate is in 10 minutes clips here on YOUTUBE, for example, search, "2 Peter 2:1, Why Do Arminians Use This Verse to Refer to the Atonement of Christ?" then check the related video links to see the other clips). 2 Peter 3:9 is answered in detail in this debate but the short answer is God does want ANY of His Elect to perish & they don't. Nonelect DO PERISH.

[horseman528]

@CAnswers If man has no freewill to choose than God is unjust. This cannot be true so the only other logical answer is that men do have freewill and can choose whether to obey God or not. Heb 5:9 " And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto ALL them who OBEY him." Obedience is a choice one makes not something they are made to do otherwise it wouldn't be true obedience. God calls all men who hear the gospel.Rom 10:17 Some listen some don't.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 You're just saying what people who don't like God's sovereignty in salvation have always been saying. Paul repeats what you're saying in Romans 9:18-19, then answers you're "unjust" bolony in verses 20-33. Paul says God (the "Potter") has the RIGHT to make some men for destruction ("vessels of wrath FITTED to destruction", verse 22) & others for salvation ("vessels of mercy", verse 23). God only sends his Holy Spirit to His elect, get it? Only the elect have the true power to obey.

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV In Josh 24:15 the people are told, "...choose you this day whom you will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." If God makes them choose then it isn't a choice. To choose something requires a free will. Did God harden peoples hearts? Yes, but could it be that an all knowing God knew they were going to choose evil anyway and chose to harden them further in order to achieve His will? John Calvin portrays God as unjust.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 I noticed that you AGAIN avoided answering my questions about Samson simply because Samson does NOT FIT into your Campbellite doctrine of WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS SALVATION. Salvation is DETERMINED by God, NOT men & their so-called good works (Isaiah 64:6). Here again you misquote Joshua 24:15 by leaving out the key part of the verse namely "choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served...or the gods of the Amorites." What choice? John Calvin? What?

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV I've already answered your question about Samson. To understand Rom. 9, one needs to study Rom.8 In Rom 8:27 we are told that God knows the hearts of men. He knew Samson's heart and everything Samson said, thought, or did is not recorded in Judges. In Rom 8:29, it says that whom God forknew he predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Who did God forknow? He knew who would CHOOSE to OBEY and who would not.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 You're wrong when you say God chose people BECAUSE He knew WHAT THEY WOULD DO. This is theological BULL BECAUSE you IGNORE the FACT that Romans 9:11 says "not of works." John 1:13 says the same, "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor OF THE WILL OF MAN." People do good works NOT to get saved but BECAUSE they're ALREADY SAVED (Acts 10:43-48) by a SOVEREIGN ACTof God. You've got it all backwards! Samson was ALREADY SAVED despite his bad deeds (Judges 13:5), get it? Jonah 2:9

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV At the root of predestination lies the foreknowledge of God. He knows ahead of time who will choose to obey and who will not. The foreknowledge of God reconciles the paradox of freewill and predestination. Did God know Samson's heart? Can a person repent in a moment? Did the thief on the cross repent in a moment( who lived under the old covenent)? Of course!

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 The foreknowledge of God means God "loved" some BEFORE they were even born & "hated" others BEFORE they were born despite any "works of righteousness" (see Romans 9:10-13 concerning the brothers Jacob & Esau). Jacob was a liar & swindler who cheated his brother Esau yet God still loved Jacob. Grace means "unmerited favor" & we are saved by God through His GRACE not because He saw we would do some good works ahead of time (Ephesians 2:8-10), get it? Why did God CHOOSE the Israelites?

[horseman528]

@CAnswersTV You've got meritorius works mixed up with obedience to the gospel and I never said that one had to be sinless to be saved. Rom 3:23 says all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. The blood of Christ covers the sins of a faithful christian. I John 1:7-10 Obedience to the gospel is an act of faith not a work.Rom 6:16-18 The idea that God hates people before they're even born? What a dark and miserable outlook. I John 4:8-9, John 3:16

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 You're the one who is theologically "mixed up" & unless you repent & ask God to save you by a sovereign act of His Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-48) then you'll die in your sins because you trusted your own "gospel obediences" & water baptism ritual for salvation instead of Christ alone. You need a supernatural act of God in your life which obviously hasn't happened yet & thus you trust your "obediences." You don't like Romans 9:11-13? No surprise! See our new CoC debate shows on YOUTUBE.

[horseman528]

@CAnswers TV, If we can do nothing to be saved and God chooses us whether we obey his gospel call or not, then why should we even evangelize since God is doing everything for us? Why was Jonah sent to NInevah to preach repentance to them if they were already saved or lost and there was nothing the Ninivites could do about it either way? Salvation is from God but it is a CHOICE given to anyone who will heed it.

[CAnswersTV]

@horseman528 Despite all the plain verses that have been brought up (a man CAN'T repent from his sins UNLESS God lets him, 2 Timothy 2:24-26, those that have been ORDAINED (by God) to eternal life BELIEVED, Acts 13:48 cf 18:27, by GRACE not works- "works" means obediences, get it?, etc) you STILL insist a man is saved by "CHOICE" of man & a WATER BAPTISM ritual. This is a FALSE GOSPEL & gives no glory to God! God uses men such as Jonah to suit His purposes (just like Paul, Acts 9:15-16), get it?

[ted13justin]

you need to preach Christ and forget about debating

[CAnswersTV]

@ted13justin You need to start reading your Bible and forget about making worthless comments like this that contradict what the Bible teaches. It's obvious you don't know enough about what real Biblical truth is to stand up & fight for it when the false prophets come your way. When the Mormons tell you that Christ is the brother of Satan I suppose you would bless them for "preaching Christ'! The apostles & disciples "debated" all the time (Acts 17:17, Acts 18:8, Jude 3, Revelation 2:2, etc.).

[TheologianZ]

There is no such thing as"Campbellism"

If there was such a thing it is just because he started the "Church of Christ" following new testament pattern of the Church, then modern people coined the term.

If there was Campbellism there should be Paulinism (Apostle Paul), why? Because he started the churches in asia in the same pattern of the Jerusalem church.

[CAnswersTV]

@TheologianZ You're incorrect to say the least. Perhaps if you studied theology & its origins a little closer you wouldn't have made this mistake. "Campbellism" (a lexical term) does most certainly exist as a body of belief systems predicated on the presuppositions of four so-called "Restorers" (Thomas & Alexander Campbell, Barton Stone, & Walter Scott) who claimed to restore the "ancient gospel" with water baptism & works. This is not "Paulinism" as Paul would condemn these fellows as heretics.

[rll1954]

@CAnswersTV Since biblical baptism is "for the resmission of sins" preceded by repentance (Acts 2:38), and it is in baptism that one has their sins washed away (Acts 22:16) and after baptism that one is benefits from Christ's death (and blood) and then is able to "walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4), how can you say one is saved without having their sins washed away? Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he who does not believe shall be condemned." (Mk. 16:16)

[CAnswersTV]

@rll1954 Everything you say here is the typical Campbellite argument based on a misreading of Bible passages out of context in order to conform to your Campbellite "ancient gospel" which was "restored" by Tom & Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, & Barton Stone (see Bob L. Ross' books, "Campbellism: Its History & Heresies", "The Restoration Movement", & his "Acts 2:38 & Baptism Remission" for a complete refutation in context of what you have stated here). See our website BIBLEQUERY ORG for more.

[connersryan]

@rll1954 there sins are not washed away literally but only figuratively. there is not power in water to wash away your sins. Don't confuse the symbol with the actual literal cleansing. the debt had to be paid by jesus not you. you have no power to save yourself as far as an act. you can either accept salvation as a free gift or go to hell for believing that salvation come from yourself. It's a gift so do not boast.

[rll1954]

@connersryan You are correct that we should not BOAST in what we do! Thanks for reming me! Please tell me where you think I did, Christ died for our sins (I Co 15:3) However, we DO have a part in our salvation. We choose to obey or disobey. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). But please honestly answer the question: Since Acts 22:16 teaches that in baptism one's sins are washed away, how can one be forgiven before or without baptism?

[CAnswersTV]

@rll1954 You "boast" in your baptism & your obediences which is a WORKS SALVATION (a kind of "earn your way into heaven" religion, much like Islam or Jehovah's Witnesses) & a clear violation of Ephesians 2:8-10 & many other passages. Acts 22:16 is a "picture of death" (cf Rom 6:4-6) thus baptism "pictures" the washing away of sins BUT does NOT accomplish it, Christ's BLOOD does, get it? Cornelius & his household in Acts 10:44ff were forgiven & filled with the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism, get it?

[AustinRogers1]

Campbell was formerly a Presbyterian. That;s right. For what it is worth, Leroy Garrett is a member of the Christian Church.There was a church of Christ Bridgeport, in Alabama at least 19 years before Cambell ever came to America. The church of Christ started in Acts 2. Baptism for salvation was not "unheard of" before Campbell, as this man says. Jesus said it was for salvation (Mark 16:16) and so did Peter (I Peter 3:21).

[CAnswersTV]

@AustinRogers1 Leroy Garrett is a Campbellite (same thing). Your Bridgeport, Alabama nonsense is refuted in the 22 hour debate entitled, WEEKLONG "CHURCH OF CHRIST" DEBATE between Bob Ross & Campbellite preacher Bill Jackson posted on GOOGLE VIDEO or YAHOO VIDEO (once on their homepage, type LARRY WESSELS & look for it). The Campbellite "church of Christ" did NOT start in Acts 2 but rather in the 1800s with the "Restorers of the Ancient Gospel". Baptism is NOT for salvation, see BIBLEQUERY ORG.

[smokeybirdman]

focus on christ....forget campbell or whoever. stop winging and arguing about this campbell clown.

[CAnswersTV]

@smokeybirdman The focus should ALWAYS be on Christ & HIS GOSPEL (Galatians 1:6-9). However, many people trapped in cults & false religions, are BLINDED by the false prophet they are following. Sometimes you have to "crack" the foundation of the faith they have in the false prophet they trust. Once their "faith" in the false prophet is shaken then they are much more OPEN to actually listening to what the Bible itself has to say. We have been able to lead many out of cults in this way. Jude 3

[CAnswersTV]

reyjacobs you're correct, the Campbellite "Church of Christers" Do believe in baptism to such an extent that they make a SAVIOUR & IDOL out of it for SALVATION! And why is this? Campbellites such as yourself (you sound like one) do not know what it is to have a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in your heart (1 Corinthians 6:19, Acts 10:44-48, etc) & therefore you think water baptism will do the trick. WRONG! ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE! You're trusting water to save you rather than Christ.

[shawnmichaelfan]

CaAnswers the idea that the Church of Christ depends on baptisim alone for salvation is a myth. What we teach is we are saved by God's grace and to recive Gods grace the New Testament tells you to 1. Profress faith in Jesus Christ. 2. Repent from your sins. 3. Be Bapitised to be buried with Jesus Christ as Romans chapter 6:4 says. 4. live a faithful life to your creater. all 4 of those is what i belive and the church of christ that i attends belives. None of those alone saves you .

[CAnswersTV]

@shawnmichaelfan In logic you have created what is called A STRAWMAN. You have falsely claimed that we have said that "the Church of Christ depends on baptism alone for salvation" & then you have proceeded to refute a statement that we have not made. Campbellite "Church of Christ" salvation depends on a multitude of works righteousnesses defined by any number of Campbellite leaders or elders. "Church of Christ" Campbellism is simply a heresy similar to that of the Judaizers in Galatians.

[rll1954]

@CAnswersTV Biblical baptism saves, according to I Peter 3:21. No one who understands Bible baptism believes in water salvation. And no one who believes Jesus believes they can be saved without it. Mark 16:16 is the truth.

[CAnswersTV]

@rll1954 Water doesn't save you anymore than going to a Roman Catholic mass or a pilgrimage to Mecca does. Only God can save you, not water baptism, the Lord's Supper, church attendance, choir practice, or anything else, get it? You've made a "god & saviour" out of water baptism which is a violation of Acts 4:10-12 & of course the rest of the Bible. God chooses & saves who He wants (John 6:29,37,39,44,63,65; Romans 9:11-23,..) & that includes the thief on the cross & Cornelius (Acts 10), get it?

[rll1954]

@CAnswersTV The Bible does not teach that baptism alone saves. Faith alone will not save. Repentance alone does not save. But none of these can be separated from salvation. Not one. What do you do with the verses that speak about baptism? The Bible does not contraduict itself, as you have vaguely implied. You denied what Peter said by the Holy Spirit. You have rejected what Jesus said. The thief on the cross died under the law of Moses, so he does not come into the discussion here.

[CAnswersTV]

@rll1954 In the typical Campbellite fashion you're putting the cart before the horse. Your "cart" is filled with water baptism, repentance, faith, right "church" group, works of Campbellite obediences, etc. which in your mind gets salvation if performed properly. This is a works gospel rather than salvation by grace apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-10), get it? A person is "saved" (Jn 3:3-8) by the Holy Spirit FIRST & THEN the "cart" of faith, etc happens, get it? What about Act 10 Cornelius?

[connersryan]

@CAnswersTV Was cornelius praising God and filled with the Holy ghost as a lost child of the Devil?

[CAnswersTV]

@connersryan Cornelius was "born again" by the Spirit of God (John 3:3-8, 1:12-13, etc) at the MOMENT the Holy Spirit fell upon him (Acts 10:44) BEFORE baptism (Acts 10:47, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized which HAVE received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"). Notice that Peter says Cornelius & his household "HAVE" received the Holy Ghost which was BEFORE Peter had even baptized them proving that they were children of God ALREADY, BEFORE BAPTISM. God saved them BEFORE!

[erosiris7]

1Co 3:3-7 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

[CAnswersTV]

@erosiris7 Matthew 7:1 says, "Judge not, that you be not judged." Christ is not calling a moratorium on examining the teachings of others; He just wanted us to do it in the right way. He told us to first judge ourselves . When that has been done properly we are then in a position to help others with their sins & false beliefs (Matt. 7:1-5). Later Jesus says to "beware of false prophets" & examine their fruit (Matthew 7:15-20). Verses 21-29 show that many that claim to be Christians are not.

[adamhuze]

Eh hem.. church of christ/Christian churches.. sheesh

[CAnswersTV]

leSavaii you need to study your Bible more accurately if indeed you do study it to any degree at all. Perhaps if you learned the doctrines taught in the Bible you wouldn't be posting comments like this. Jesus Himself said that few of the people that claim to be Christians are real Christians (start your Bible study with Matthew 7: 13-29). Since apparently you are a beginner we will make it easy. Doctrines are what distinguish true prophets from false prophets & the Bible determines that.

[leSavaii]

UNTIL THE COMING OF CHRIST..Then maybe these Christian Ministers will stop fighting. It is shameful to them arguing over the Holy Bible. Jesus kept saying that Him & His Father are One in every doctrine in His Father's Kingdom