To paraphrase Voltaire; the true achievement of an age is not measured by the deeds of its kings but by the creations of its artists. This music evokes the spirit of the Enlightenment like nothing else.
Charles Mackerras' recordings with the LSO (where I looked first) seem to just use a wind band, and then I searched around on YouTube and discovered these videos, but recordings don't seem to be available of them on iTunes, which is a shame, because that means you don't need internet and can play them anywhere and I haven't found better ones.
The ones who applaud between movements are also those who applaud and head for the exits after the Hallelujah chorus, thinking that is the end of Handel's Messiah.
@lrbaseball15 British audiences don't ge the same exposure to this sort of music as frequently as German ones do. I do, however, think that if they had a look at the program and knew conventions better, they would know when to clap. Either you wait until the end or encore each movement.
Goodness...Handel's music was so elegant. Every music from Mozart on tried for nothing but to strive for that elegance in music. This music is self-respecting and dignified!
I was really enjoying that until I I heard someone in the crowd shout out "sister's cunt stuffed with cat shit. Now that's the true taste of home". It's a truely disgusting thing to say and it really spoilts the video.
@fujianprince Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective. Their styles were vastly different and difficult to compare. Handel was theatrical, and commercial considerations and the need to appeal to many people greatly influenced his music. Bach was much more introspective and composed for patrons rather than for the public, as Handel did.
@davehshs excuse me but you said earlier on: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind. Handel is my favorite, too, but mastermind of baroque is a Bach."
And yet now you replied: "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
Aren't you contradicting yourself? Who are you to say "Bach is the mastermind" on a Handel video? Please don't be subjective.
@fujianprince A simple evaluation of a composer's music is not subjective if it is based upon a reasoned contemplation of the music (it's merits or lack thereof). Bach was the greater craftsman, you may like Handel more, but that doesn't make a difference.
@sstuddert I agree with all your points except one. Bach was also flawed in craftsmanship, as proven by the missing parts of Cantata BWV.216 (Vergnügte Pleißenstadt) or the missing bass of Air with Variations in C minor, BWV.991, etc.. This is a recurring problem with most polymath composers (eg. Telemann); many works = probability of many flaws.
@fujianprince What makes you think that the missing parts and works are flawed? It seems a little odd that only that music of Bach's which is perfect should survive and all of the music which is flawed, and which might therefore prove your point, is missing. Not only this, you're argument is pure speculation. Just because there is a possibility that some of the missing works and parts might be flawed doesn't make Handel the greater composer.
@sstuddert I do not, in any way, disagree with you about Bach's genius. However, you stated that "Bach WAS the greater craftsman" (past tense), instead of "Bach IS the greater craftsman" (present tense). Since your argument involved the PAST tense, it has to be evidenced by an authority from the PAST (eg. Charles Burney, Johann Mattheson, Johann Joachim Quantz, John Stafford Smith, Jean Philippe Rameau, or any Baroque-era historian-theorists).
@fujianprince no, reason is not based on "authority". Are you a relativist? If the people of Bach's day did not think Bach was the greater craftsman, then they were wrong. The object of this evaluation can only be the music itself, not the flawed perceptions of others. Would you say that Salieri was a greater craftsman than Mozart just because he was considered as such at the time? if so, I suppose you will say then that Schubert was completely talentless because he was unknown in his lifetime.
@sstuddert To seek the truth of men in past history, you must first understand the Zeitgeist and the opinions of people living in those times. How can their perceptions be flawed when they themselves are the consumers of that music? Yes, Salieri WAS the greater craftsman than Mozart. However, he IS not the greater craftsman today. Opinions change over time, but historical truth remains factual.
@sstuddert Basing my reason "on" authority is not the same as reasoning "from" authority. Their authority comes from the Weltanschauung (worldview) of their own time and place. They will always have more credibility than us, since they are living "presently" in their time. Despite the common popular belief, Bach was well-known in his lifetime, people named him the "Organ Devil" and "German Orpheus." Schubert is another case.
@fujianprince the Mass in B minor, the St Matthew Passion, the art of fugue are all greater than comparable Handel works. Even if some or all of Bach's missing music was flawed (which is not likely when one considers this man's record), he would still be a greater craftsman than Handle on the account of his survivng compositions alone.
I've never heard this argument before and it's really feeble, worse than the "if Mozart lived longer than Beethoven, Mozart would have become greater" theory.
@sstuddert Why do we insist that "Bach was greater than Handel?" This is ridiculous than the "Mozart is greater than Haydn" fanatics. AGAIN, I repeat, according to contemporaries like Charles Burney, Handel was greater than Bach. You have to respect their opinions because it was THEIR time and music, not ours. Any musicologist will use concrete historical documentation. Bach was the greater organist though, second only to Buxtehude, an undeniable fact.
@fujianprince Listen to me, very, VERY carefully: the perceptions of others are subjective; the music itself is an object external to their subjective perception of it. Your argument is balanced upon the wuthering knife edge of relativism. In essence, what you're saying is that, because the majority thought Bach was not the greater composer in his time, he was not. There's a name for that kind of fallacy:
@sstuddert How can I be relativist when I am stating factual, historical evidences? Are they not relevant to our discussion? Funny thing is, your insistence on "relativism" has caused you to commit a real fallacy - Ignoratio elenchi.
@fujianprince not at all, you're implying that the level of craftsmanship of a composer and thereofore the quality of that composer's music somehow changes according to the general majority's changing perception of it.
That is a stance that could only be taken by someone who believes that the subjective views of other people alter the fact itself - you have taken an absolutely relativistic approach and the resulting argument is absurd.
@sstuddert Again, again, I repeat, you must first understand the Zeitgeist and the Weltanschauung of their time. I never cited this "general majority" perception, rather I implied the perception of well-known 18th century authorities in their own time. Who would you rather believe?
A) Contemporaries of Bach & Handel who knew, wrote treatises, and listened to their music
@sstuddert Tell me, how can I be "Relativist" when I am using HISTORICAL METHODOLOGY? Primary sources of Bach & Handel's contemporaries have more credibility than your unrelenting bias on the matter (and your off-topic insistence on Relativism).
@fujianprince You have given me historical evidence but not historical evidence that in any way supports your argument. If you were arguing that Handel had a greater influence on his contemporaries, then the opinions of his contemporaries would be a relevant, but that Handel had more skill than Bach? no, the highest authority in this regard can only be the music itself. The opinions of Bach's contemporaries say more about them then they do about Bach.
@sstuddert "You have given me historical evidence but not historical evidence that in any way supports your argument." ??? This is circular reasoning. So far, you have given me no counter-arguments contrary to my stand. The HISTORICAL fact remains true, Handel WAS greater than Bach. Ask any music historian. Only a fool would deny that.
@fujianprince As I have already explained, this evidence is indisputable: Bach's contemporaries did think Handel was greater, during his early and middle periods, Beethoven once said "Handel, to him I bow the knee" when asked who he thought was the greatest composer, but what does this prove? it proves that Beethoven and Bach's contemporaries liked Handel. I asked you to draw your conclusions directly from the music and you have done the exact opposite.
@sstuddert As I have already explained your "opinion" on the music itself is of no credibility. Anyone can simply say "Zelenka is greater than Bach in counterpoint, et al." which is entirely unsupported from historical accounts. Are you implying that Beethoven only "liked" Handel & Bach's music, but has no knowledge of their music theory?! Where are your factual evidences? You are wasting my time.
@sstuddert "I asked you to draw your conclusions directly from the music and you have done the exact opposite." How many times do I need to repeat this? Handel wins in theater; Bach wins in church. The Zeitgeist of Baroque period is Opera, not church music. Handel > Bach in their time. I DO NOT deny Bach's mastery in contrapuntal fugues.
"Can you even read music?"
Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't be in the 18th International Congress of the International Musicological Society in Zurich, last 2007.
@fujianprince Now, you see, here is one of the greate fallacies people commit in music "Handel wins in theatre; Bach wins in church." Does Handel "win" when it comes to motivic/thematic elaboration/development? no. Does Handel win when it comes to harmonic control? no. In his Rhythmic command, does Handel win? no. In form and structure, does Handel win? no. Does Bach excell beyond Handel in all of these things? yes, absolutely.
@sstuddert Please don't use silly "technical" terms. I know you are trying to prove your intellectual superiority, but you aren't proving anything. Have you ever wondered why Bach never composed an opera? Or why Handel kept on secularizing his oratorios (eg. Semele)? So you say Bach composes more complex music?
"Simplicity is the highest goal. After one has played a vast quantity of notes and more notes, it is simplicity that emerges as the crowning reward of art." - Frederic Chopin
@fujianprince I use technical language on the presupposition that you understand it, if I try to "prove [my] intellectual superiority" (which I don't), at least I do so by producing an intelligent argument rather than by boasting my attendance at some convention.
As for Chopin's comment, it holds no weight in this argument because he didn't support his claim with evidence or reason.
@sstuddert Could you please explain to me why Bach deliberately copied the basso continuo of Purcell's Ground in Gamut for his "Goldberg" Variations? Or why he failed to surpass Handel's organ concertos and resorted to transcribing Vivaldi concertos instead? And how come he never composed a single March piece?
@fujianprince Are you truly concerned by the fact that Bach copied a basso continuo or that he didn't compose a march? Such trifling and unimportant things distract only the most inconsequential of minds.
Though I fear you have insulted the intelligence of anyone who is unfortunate enough to read through this failed attempt at discourse, I would be delighted to respond to you again should such a time come that you at last produce a valid argument.
@fujianprince "The Zeitgeist of Baroque period is Opera, not church music" which is why, in spite of Bach being the greater composer, Handel was the more renowned composer. And so does Handel "win" in achieving the admiration of his peers? yes, but that says much more about them than it does about Bach.
Now, prove that wrong with the music itself - use examples.
And I don't care if you've been to a musicological convention, your argument is pathetic regardless.
So you weren't able to give me any purely musically based argument.
My reasoning is not based upon the conclusions of any authority, I'm a free thinker - no matter how much 'authority' any individual or groups of individuals have or are perceived to have, I don't just take their word for it.
Be skeptical and consider the argument itself, not the individual who declares it.
Don't let others draw your conclusions for you, reason and draw your conclusions yourself.
@sstuddert Arguing with an irrational "free thinker" who is heavily biased on Bach (and thinks that the "Common Practice period is supreme") is a waste of my time. Goodbye.
@fujianprince At the moment, your arguments may be thoroughly informed but they are not thoroughly thought through. My [correct] assertion of your relativistic tendencies is not off topic. I'm dismissing your argument because it is irrational and I am explaining how it is irrational. Your evidence is indisputable; your reasoning is dubious.
If you want to have a proper argument with me about this, study the music and draw your conclusions from that, using examples where appropriate.
@sstuddert at the moment, your arguments may be thoroughly informed but they are not supported by historical facts. I'm dismissing your argument because it is heavily unsupported and I am explaining how it is questionable. Your evidence is disputable; your reasoning is undeniable however.
If you want to have a proper argument with me about this, study the primary sources of music & historical accounts, then draw your conclusions from that.
@fujianprince not at all, the music exists outside of the perception of the listener. The listener's understanding of the music may rely on his subjective perception of it, but the quality of the music itself relies only on the ability of the composer and is therefore constant.
@fujianprince Again, and I want to see you confirm this, do you think that Cherubini and Salieri were greater composers than Schubert and that he (Schubert) was a composer completely without talent?
@sstuddert The comparison you had made earlier was between Mozart and Salieri (contemporaries). And now you insist on Salieri to Schubert (teacher-student)? And I NEVER mentioned Schubert being "completely without talent," why did you make that up yourself?
@sstuddert "the Mass in B minor, the St Matthew Passion, the art of fugue are all greater than comparable Handel works." Yes, but it is a flawed comparison. Handel was interested in drama / opera / concerto; while Bach in the chamber / keyboard / sacred. Different genres for different audiences. The Zeitgeist of the Baroque period was Opera, not church music. Hence why contemporaries rated Handel higher than Bach. I hope my point was made clear enough.
@sstuddert What I had been pointing out was the fact the according to Bach & Handel's contemporaries (not my personal opinion), Handel was the "greater" composer who best represented the epoch. Bach was deemed too "old fashioned" by his contemporaries in a time where church music is secondary place. I hope this explains my stand. Respects to both Handel & Bach's genius.
@fujianprince Yes, Bach's contemporaries did find him old fashioned, but we now know that Bach was in fact the exact opposite - he was a highly innovative composer who's influence on future musicians was only surpassed by that of Beethoven and, possibly, Wagner. Furthermore, it wouldn't be the only time that a composer was rejected by his contemporaries (Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler), and it wouldn't be the last time that a composer's contemporaries would be proven wrong.
en mi opinion , es una de las mayores obras de la historia de la musica, es una berdadera lastima ke la musica culta se substituyera por la musica que se escucha actualmente
Yo pensaba igual que tu. Pero me di cuenta que los clasicos se hacen con el tiempo. Es decir mucha de etsa musica "clasica" era despreciada o era considerada comercial en su epoca. Ahora nosotros la elevamos a la categroai que tiene, mrecida pro cierto. Los Beatles, por ejemplo, van en camino de ser clasicos inmortales.
de hecho ahy buenas obras de musica en nuestros tiempos, no solo contemporanea o moderna ( no regueton esa es uyna mentada de madrs y pasito chilanguense es otra)
@bentonpreciado I agree, its such beautiful music. I have a recording of Philadelphia Brass with Joan Lippincott playing along as an organist, and it's really neat to hear that part of the song played on piccolo trumpets and all brass instruments. I recommend checking it out
This is my favorite of baroque, I have it on CD with Menuhin Festival Orchestra its the master peace of the baroque!!! Even G.F. Haendel was German he may consider a English composer!!!
On ouverture, the strings are wayyyy to overpowering. What makes this song excellent is the strong brass supposrtig behind the light strings. All the major brass entrances seem to be washed out by the strings. Anyone agree?
It is not easy to capture the true sound of fireworks with audio equipment then reproduce it on speakers without distortion. To do so properly would require insulating the orchestra with sound barriers then using a huge aray of microphones. That would not be practical for a live performance with an audience. Somewhere, there is always a compromise. Some pieces are best appreciated live in person.
Playing music written before 1900 or so on instruments with a modern setup should be illegal. The truth is, string players were still using gut strings until the 1950s or so. Even the great works of Romantic composers should be played on instruments appropriate for that era. Gut strings, keyless brass, and hard timpani sticks should be universally employed. Baroque and renaissance music is not the only music we should be concerned with playing on authentic instruments.
baroqueboy. I can see where you're coming from but disagree. Whether baroque or modern, each has a validity. I personally love both and it certainly doesn't take away any grandeur of the original.
Illegal? Ha. I'm aware of the historical significance of them, I just prefer the sound of modern instruments and it's hard to find recordings with them sometimes. And playing natural horn is a bitch, so I'm really glad we don't have to play everything on historically accurate instruments!
This is an excellent piece. I played this with one of the youth orchestras I'm in. The trumpet part is pretty hard, and these guys make it sound so easy!!! It's pretty cool!!!
I don't think it's strange at all since Handel moved to England in 1710 and lived there for the rest of his live and he composed the royal firework in his later years.
This piece of music made me a classical music fan. I've branched from Barroque, but it still holds a dear place in my heart. Rule Britania! Thank God for Handel. Masterful performance.
@nolimitshos That may be so, but this piece of music was written specifically to celebrate the end of the War of the Austrian Succession in which Britain participated and was one of the victors. So, Rule Britannia indeed! Little fact, the King at the time was German and commissioned the work.
Much as I admire Robert King`s RFM on period instruments, I prefer Handel`s later rescoring for full orchetra which he wrote for The Foundling Hospital, London as performed here at Buck House.
Ironically, this later version was intended for concert hall use, whilst the original scoring was for outdoor use. In these two videos they are the wrong way round. Still great Mr Handel though
this music is so good I can feel so many different emotion from different movement
Irvinekinness 2 weeks ago
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TheWisemonkey8 5 days ago
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@Irvinekinness Yes! 3:48 ... that is some run from the strings... gets ones heart pumping! Hurrah!
TheWisemonkey8 5 days ago
Just shut the fuck up with your arguments and listen to the music. No one forced you to watch this.
mtsumusic 1 month ago 5
i heard this song form my conservatory`s orchestra it was nice
sebastiansito2000 1 month ago
my orchastra played this..... lets just say we did okay compared to this :D
calilovescalifornia 1 month ago
To paraphrase Voltaire; the true achievement of an age is not measured by the deeds of its kings but by the creations of its artists. This music evokes the spirit of the Enlightenment like nothing else.
Piquet36 2 months ago
this is gay
123thecommentor 2 months ago
jeez why do handel videos have so much dislikes?
sirshitsalot007 3 months ago
Handel is Epic... I like his Bourree for the piano...
InkStudiosVideo 3 months ago
*sob* so beautiful...
well, I am in the orchestra at Chaparral Middle School
We are playing this song....
but I wish we can make music as beautiful as this
eeeveeen 3 months ago
Handel did nothing that was not inspired by God. His music for majesty and pomp has NO equal.
Bruce99100 4 months ago
i like the more squared setup of the orchestra rather than the rounded one
MountieVision 5 months ago
Simply beautiful.
AnarchystBR 6 months ago
Charles Mackerras' recordings with the LSO (where I looked first) seem to just use a wind band, and then I searched around on YouTube and discovered these videos, but recordings don't seem to be available of them on iTunes, which is a shame, because that means you don't need internet and can play them anywhere and I haven't found better ones.
PhysicalsimForever 6 months ago
Where can I find a recording of this with a full orchestra, strings included which was done in the last 15 years (I am fussy about sound quality)?
PhysicalsimForever 6 months ago
Bravissimo!
emileabib 6 months ago
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PhysicalsimForever 7 months ago
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PhysicalsimForever 7 months ago
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PhysicalsimForever 7 months ago
The ones who applaud between movements are also those who applaud and head for the exits after the Hallelujah chorus, thinking that is the end of Handel's Messiah.
lrbaseball15 8 months ago
@lrbaseball15 British audiences don't ge the same exposure to this sort of music as frequently as German ones do. I do, however, think that if they had a look at the program and knew conventions better, they would know when to clap. Either you wait until the end or encore each movement.
PhysicalsimForever 7 months ago
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creepyboss64 8 months ago
It's nice to know the Brits also applaud between movements in a single work. It's not just us Americans!
kiltlvr 8 months ago
Goodness...Handel's music was so elegant. Every music from Mozart on tried for nothing but to strive for that elegance in music. This music is self-respecting and dignified!
lindermann 8 months ago
@lindermann Beethoven and Berlioz and Mahler tried to strive for elegance, did they?
sstuddert 2 months ago
Wait a minute........isn't that Bill O'Reilly of FOX News on trumpet and former President Bill Clinton on first violin????
lrbaseball15 9 months ago
@lrbaseball15 Hahaha.
Dodo251 6 months ago
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Das ist wahre Musik!!!!!!
dantakli 9 months ago
8 people here seem to be deaf.
This is an example of the purest musical greatness in the around the world, it's just beaufitul.
Generalfieldmarshall 11 months ago 7
@Generalfieldmarshall It's not funny to be deaf.
monetandmozart 9 months ago
So godlike!
DarkRob316 11 months ago
beautiful summer night in london, perfect scenery for such a master piece
thanks Britain for being almost alone still capable of offering the world a touch of class
long live the UK
your friends in the Basque Country
sarribel 1 year ago
2:30 - 4:04 is surely the most joyous piece of music ever written!
Rainb0wSeven 1 year ago
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I was really enjoying that until I I heard someone in the crowd shout out "sister's cunt stuffed with cat shit. Now that's the true taste of home". It's a truely disgusting thing to say and it really spoilts the video.
PandaDelight 1 year ago
3:49 screw those flashy rock concerts, this is the real deal.
Dodo251 1 year ago
dude, this really is an AMAZING rendition! love it -
many thanks for posting!
king3rnie 1 year ago
Me and My Friend Might play this for a solo recital with this music in the back-round :D This piece is just amazing! <3 :D
xXJawruWolfXx 1 year ago
@stefan1176 I disagree with you. Handel is the true master of the Baroque. Stylistically, J.S. Bach is what we may call a "musical science" instead.
fujianprince 1 year ago
@fujianprince Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective. Their styles were vastly different and difficult to compare. Handel was theatrical, and commercial considerations and the need to appeal to many people greatly influenced his music. Bach was much more introspective and composed for patrons rather than for the public, as Handel did.
davehshs 1 year ago
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@davehshs excuse me but you said earlier on: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind. Handel is my favorite, too, but mastermind of baroque is a Bach."
And yet now you replied: "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
Aren't you contradicting yourself? Who are you to say "Bach is the mastermind" on a Handel video? Please don't be subjective.
fujianprince 1 year ago
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@davehshs you said "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
And yet earlier on: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being "subjective" too. Don't rant about Bach on a Handel video.
Keep your opinions to yourself.
Can you Handel it? Good. I'll be Bach.
fujianprince 1 year ago
@fujianprince A simple evaluation of a composer's music is not subjective if it is based upon a reasoned contemplation of the music (it's merits or lack thereof). Bach was the greater craftsman, you may like Handel more, but that doesn't make a difference.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert and Mozart was certainly not the greatest composer of all time either.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert I agree with all your points except one. Bach was also flawed in craftsmanship, as proven by the missing parts of Cantata BWV.216 (Vergnügte Pleißenstadt) or the missing bass of Air with Variations in C minor, BWV.991, etc.. This is a recurring problem with most polymath composers (eg. Telemann); many works = probability of many flaws.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince What makes you think that the missing parts and works are flawed? It seems a little odd that only that music of Bach's which is perfect should survive and all of the music which is flawed, and which might therefore prove your point, is missing. Not only this, you're argument is pure speculation. Just because there is a possibility that some of the missing works and parts might be flawed doesn't make Handel the greater composer.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert I do not, in any way, disagree with you about Bach's genius. However, you stated that "Bach WAS the greater craftsman" (past tense), instead of "Bach IS the greater craftsman" (present tense). Since your argument involved the PAST tense, it has to be evidenced by an authority from the PAST (eg. Charles Burney, Johann Mattheson, Johann Joachim Quantz, John Stafford Smith, Jean Philippe Rameau, or any Baroque-era historian-theorists).
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince no, reason is not based on "authority". Are you a relativist? If the people of Bach's day did not think Bach was the greater craftsman, then they were wrong. The object of this evaluation can only be the music itself, not the flawed perceptions of others. Would you say that Salieri was a greater craftsman than Mozart just because he was considered as such at the time? if so, I suppose you will say then that Schubert was completely talentless because he was unknown in his lifetime.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert To seek the truth of men in past history, you must first understand the Zeitgeist and the opinions of people living in those times. How can their perceptions be flawed when they themselves are the consumers of that music? Yes, Salieri WAS the greater craftsman than Mozart. However, he IS not the greater craftsman today. Opinions change over time, but historical truth remains factual.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@sstuddert Basing my reason "on" authority is not the same as reasoning "from" authority. Their authority comes from the Weltanschauung (worldview) of their own time and place. They will always have more credibility than us, since they are living "presently" in their time. Despite the common popular belief, Bach was well-known in his lifetime, people named him the "Organ Devil" and "German Orpheus." Schubert is another case.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince the Mass in B minor, the St Matthew Passion, the art of fugue are all greater than comparable Handel works. Even if some or all of Bach's missing music was flawed (which is not likely when one considers this man's record), he would still be a greater craftsman than Handle on the account of his survivng compositions alone.
I've never heard this argument before and it's really feeble, worse than the "if Mozart lived longer than Beethoven, Mozart would have become greater" theory.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert Why do we insist that "Bach was greater than Handel?" This is ridiculous than the "Mozart is greater than Haydn" fanatics. AGAIN, I repeat, according to contemporaries like Charles Burney, Handel was greater than Bach. You have to respect their opinions because it was THEIR time and music, not ours. Any musicologist will use concrete historical documentation. Bach was the greater organist though, second only to Buxtehude, an undeniable fact.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince Listen to me, very, VERY carefully: the perceptions of others are subjective; the music itself is an object external to their subjective perception of it. Your argument is balanced upon the wuthering knife edge of relativism. In essence, what you're saying is that, because the majority thought Bach was not the greater composer in his time, he was not. There's a name for that kind of fallacy:
argumentum ad populum.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert How can I be relativist when I am stating factual, historical evidences? Are they not relevant to our discussion? Funny thing is, your insistence on "relativism" has caused you to commit a real fallacy - Ignoratio elenchi.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince not at all, you're implying that the level of craftsmanship of a composer and thereofore the quality of that composer's music somehow changes according to the general majority's changing perception of it.
That is a stance that could only be taken by someone who believes that the subjective views of other people alter the fact itself - you have taken an absolutely relativistic approach and the resulting argument is absurd.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert Again, again, I repeat, you must first understand the Zeitgeist and the Weltanschauung of their time. I never cited this "general majority" perception, rather I implied the perception of well-known 18th century authorities in their own time. Who would you rather believe?
A) Contemporaries of Bach & Handel who knew, wrote treatises, and listened to their music
or
B) Your 21st century view on Bach & Handel
fujianprince 2 months ago
@sstuddert Tell me, how can I be "Relativist" when I am using HISTORICAL METHODOLOGY? Primary sources of Bach & Handel's contemporaries have more credibility than your unrelenting bias on the matter (and your off-topic insistence on Relativism).
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince You have given me historical evidence but not historical evidence that in any way supports your argument. If you were arguing that Handel had a greater influence on his contemporaries, then the opinions of his contemporaries would be a relevant, but that Handel had more skill than Bach? no, the highest authority in this regard can only be the music itself. The opinions of Bach's contemporaries say more about them then they do about Bach.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert "You have given me historical evidence but not historical evidence that in any way supports your argument." ??? This is circular reasoning. So far, you have given me no counter-arguments contrary to my stand. The HISTORICAL fact remains true, Handel WAS greater than Bach. Ask any music historian. Only a fool would deny that.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@sstuddert There are many sources to the Handel-Bach argument. I'll cite one for now, Ferdinand Ries, who was close to Beethoven:
"Of all composers, Beethoven valued Handel the highest, then Mozart and Sebastian Bach."
Source - F. G. Wegeler & F. Ries, 'Biographische Notizen uber Ludwig van Beethoven' (Goblenz, 1838), p.84
Now give me your historically cited counter-evidence.... Handel > Bach (acc. to LvB)
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince As I have already explained, this evidence is indisputable: Bach's contemporaries did think Handel was greater, during his early and middle periods, Beethoven once said "Handel, to him I bow the knee" when asked who he thought was the greatest composer, but what does this prove? it proves that Beethoven and Bach's contemporaries liked Handel. I asked you to draw your conclusions directly from the music and you have done the exact opposite.
Can you even read music?
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert As I have already explained your "opinion" on the music itself is of no credibility. Anyone can simply say "Zelenka is greater than Bach in counterpoint, et al." which is entirely unsupported from historical accounts. Are you implying that Beethoven only "liked" Handel & Bach's music, but has no knowledge of their music theory?! Where are your factual evidences? You are wasting my time.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@sstuddert "I asked you to draw your conclusions directly from the music and you have done the exact opposite." How many times do I need to repeat this? Handel wins in theater; Bach wins in church. The Zeitgeist of Baroque period is Opera, not church music. Handel > Bach in their time. I DO NOT deny Bach's mastery in contrapuntal fugues.
"Can you even read music?"
Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't be in the 18th International Congress of the International Musicological Society in Zurich, last 2007.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince Now, you see, here is one of the greate fallacies people commit in music "Handel wins in theatre; Bach wins in church." Does Handel "win" when it comes to motivic/thematic elaboration/development? no. Does Handel win when it comes to harmonic control? no. In his Rhythmic command, does Handel win? no. In form and structure, does Handel win? no. Does Bach excell beyond Handel in all of these things? yes, absolutely.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert Please don't use silly "technical" terms. I know you are trying to prove your intellectual superiority, but you aren't proving anything. Have you ever wondered why Bach never composed an opera? Or why Handel kept on secularizing his oratorios (eg. Semele)? So you say Bach composes more complex music?
"Simplicity is the highest goal. After one has played a vast quantity of notes and more notes, it is simplicity that emerges as the crowning reward of art." - Frederic Chopin
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince I use technical language on the presupposition that you understand it, if I try to "prove [my] intellectual superiority" (which I don't), at least I do so by producing an intelligent argument rather than by boasting my attendance at some convention.
As for Chopin's comment, it holds no weight in this argument because he didn't support his claim with evidence or reason.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert Could you please explain to me why Bach deliberately copied the basso continuo of Purcell's Ground in Gamut for his "Goldberg" Variations? Or why he failed to surpass Handel's organ concertos and resorted to transcribing Vivaldi concertos instead? And how come he never composed a single March piece?
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince Are you truly concerned by the fact that Bach copied a basso continuo or that he didn't compose a march? Such trifling and unimportant things distract only the most inconsequential of minds.
Though I fear you have insulted the intelligence of anyone who is unfortunate enough to read through this failed attempt at discourse, I would be delighted to respond to you again should such a time come that you at last produce a valid argument.
but no sooner.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert "Can you even read music?"
"And I don't care if you've been to a musicological convention, your argument is pathetic regardless."
"Such trifling and unimportant things distract only the most inconsequential of minds."
Listen to me very, VERY carefully. You are in a case of Intellectual Superiority Complex.
Bounce off will you? Shove your Ego elsewhere. Discussion with you is finished.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince "The Zeitgeist of Baroque period is Opera, not church music" which is why, in spite of Bach being the greater composer, Handel was the more renowned composer. And so does Handel "win" in achieving the admiration of his peers? yes, but that says much more about them than it does about Bach.
Now, prove that wrong with the music itself - use examples.
And I don't care if you've been to a musicological convention, your argument is pathetic regardless.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert "And I don't care if you've been to a musicological convention, your argument is pathetic regardless."
Ah yes indeed, more pathetic than you claiming Beethoven only "liked" Bach & Handel haha.
sstuddert's assertion > Beethoven's assertion
Are you happy now? Rational egoism attained? You are the best. Case closed.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince
So you weren't able to give me any purely musically based argument.
My reasoning is not based upon the conclusions of any authority, I'm a free thinker - no matter how much 'authority' any individual or groups of individuals have or are perceived to have, I don't just take their word for it.
Be skeptical and consider the argument itself, not the individual who declares it.
Don't let others draw your conclusions for you, reason and draw your conclusions yourself.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert Arguing with an irrational "free thinker" who is heavily biased on Bach (and thinks that the "Common Practice period is supreme") is a waste of my time. Goodbye.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince At the moment, your arguments may be thoroughly informed but they are not thoroughly thought through. My [correct] assertion of your relativistic tendencies is not off topic. I'm dismissing your argument because it is irrational and I am explaining how it is irrational. Your evidence is indisputable; your reasoning is dubious.
If you want to have a proper argument with me about this, study the music and draw your conclusions from that, using examples where appropriate.
sstuddert 2 months ago
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@sstuddert at the moment, your arguments may be thoroughly informed but they are not supported by historical facts. I'm dismissing your argument because it is heavily unsupported and I am explaining how it is questionable. Your evidence is disputable; your reasoning is undeniable however.
If you want to have a proper argument with me about this, study the primary sources of music & historical accounts, then draw your conclusions from that.
fujianprince 2 months ago
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@sstuddert @sstuddert "the perceptions of others are subjective; the music itself is an object external to their subjective perception of it."
1) So "the perceptions of others are subjective," but yours isn't?
2) Music RELIES on the subjective perception of the listener (all art forms do)
3) Unless you actually lived in the 18th century, your "opinion" of Bach is more questionable than these known authorities.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince not at all, the music exists outside of the perception of the listener. The listener's understanding of the music may rely on his subjective perception of it, but the quality of the music itself relies only on the ability of the composer and is therefore constant.
sstuddert 2 months ago
@fujianprince Again, and I want to see you confirm this, do you think that Cherubini and Salieri were greater composers than Schubert and that he (Schubert) was a composer completely without talent?
sstuddert 2 months ago
@sstuddert The comparison you had made earlier was between Mozart and Salieri (contemporaries). And now you insist on Salieri to Schubert (teacher-student)? And I NEVER mentioned Schubert being "completely without talent," why did you make that up yourself?
Fallacy of inconsistent comparison.
fujianprince 2 months ago
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@sstuddert "the Mass in B minor, the St Matthew Passion, the art of fugue are all greater than comparable Handel works." Yes, but it is a flawed comparison. Handel was interested in drama / opera / concerto; while Bach in the chamber / keyboard / sacred. Different genres for different audiences. The Zeitgeist of the Baroque period was Opera, not church music. Hence why contemporaries rated Handel higher than Bach. I hope my point was made clear enough.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@sstuddert What I had been pointing out was the fact the according to Bach & Handel's contemporaries (not my personal opinion), Handel was the "greater" composer who best represented the epoch. Bach was deemed too "old fashioned" by his contemporaries in a time where church music is secondary place. I hope this explains my stand. Respects to both Handel & Bach's genius.
fujianprince 2 months ago
@fujianprince Yes, Bach's contemporaries did find him old fashioned, but we now know that Bach was in fact the exact opposite - he was a highly innovative composer who's influence on future musicians was only surpassed by that of Beethoven and, possibly, Wagner. Furthermore, it wouldn't be the only time that a composer was rejected by his contemporaries (Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler), and it wouldn't be the last time that a composer's contemporaries would be proven wrong.
sstuddert 2 months ago
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@davehshs "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
And yet you said: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being "subjective" too. Don't rant about Bach on a Handel video.
Keep your opinions to yourself.
Can you Handel it? Good, or I'll be Bach. >:)
fujianprince 1 year ago
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@davehshs "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
And yet you said: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being "subjective" too. Don't rant about Bach on a Handel video.
Keep your opinions to yourself.
Can you Handel it? Good. Or I'll be Bach. >:)
fujianprince 1 year ago
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@davehshs "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
And yet you said: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being "subjective" too. Don't rant about Bach on a Handel video.
Keep your opinions to yourself.
(Sorry for any repeating messages)
fujianprince 1 year ago
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@davehshs "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective."
And yet you said: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being "subjective" too. Don't rant about Bach on a Handel video.
Can you Handel it? I'll be Bach.
fujianprince 1 year ago
@davehshs Read Christoph Wolff's book on JS Bach. I hope that helps.
fujianprince 1 year ago
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@davehshs "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective." and yet you also said: "I disagree, J.S. Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being "subjective" too. Don't rant about Bach on a Handel video.
fujianprince 1 year ago
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@davehshs "Who was the greater genius? It's entirely subjective." yet you said "I disagree, JS Bach is the mastermind."
Ironically, you're being subjectivist too. Don't talk about Bach on a Handel video.
Keep it to yourself.
fujianprince 1 year ago
@davehshs Youtube comment errors. Sorry for the many replies, not intentional.
fujianprince 1 year ago
@stefan1176 vivaldi isnt far behind
beastinblack 1 year ago
@beastinblack agreed. Viva Vivaldi! :D
fujianprince 1 year ago
7:15 main theme for anyone trying to find it
littlelaurence 1 year ago
hey rupert jones this robert what is different prom and party at palace prom is before or after party at palace?
muffles12 1 year ago
The glory of Handel. I think, with the single exception of Mozart, he was the greatest
composer ever. His music uplifts the soul.
burkewhb 1 year ago
Another fantastic GERMAN composer.
Dodo251 1 year ago 8
Georg Friedrich Händel ein Superstar mit unvergesslicher Musik!!!!!!!!
LandauPfalz1 1 year ago 2
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7:16 super :)
FeryalFun 1 year ago
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FeryalFun 1 year ago
Porqué nunca tocan esto en mi ciudad?
Pero si viene Joan Sebastian se retaca hasta el estadio...
Estamos del nabo :(
DelfosMX 1 year ago
@DelfosMX Cual es tu ciudad? Joan Sebastian?? Oh....logico esta musica es Europea, la musica es Universal ...si pero es tambien cultural :)
eddiemperor 1 year ago
played with such majesty ! its such a fine piece of work that Handel did !
FlameRz826 1 year ago
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whose that clown with the stick?
gettheresoon 1 year ago
en mi opinion , es una de las mayores obras de la historia de la musica, es una berdadera lastima ke la musica culta se substituyera por la musica que se escucha actualmente
joscarcatala 1 year ago 2
"verdadera lastima"
Yo pensaba igual que tu. Pero me di cuenta que los clasicos se hacen con el tiempo. Es decir mucha de etsa musica "clasica" era despreciada o era considerada comercial en su epoca. Ahora nosotros la elevamos a la categroai que tiene, mrecida pro cierto. Los Beatles, por ejemplo, van en camino de ser clasicos inmortales.
h5t6ca 1 year ago
de hecho ahy buenas obras de musica en nuestros tiempos, no solo contemporanea o moderna ( no regueton esa es uyna mentada de madrs y pasito chilanguense es otra)
Clowess 1 year ago 2
The run that the violins have at 3:49 was just perfect. Thank you Handel and the BBC Symphony.
bentonpreciado 1 year ago 70
@bentonpreciado I agree, its such beautiful music. I have a recording of Philadelphia Brass with Joan Lippincott playing along as an organist, and it's really neat to hear that part of the song played on piccolo trumpets and all brass instruments. I recommend checking it out
Cornetkid1 1 year ago
@Cornetkid1 I will definitely look into that. Thanks for the suggestion.
bentonpreciado 1 year ago
This is my favorite of baroque, I have it on CD with Menuhin Festival Orchestra its the master peace of the baroque!!! Even G.F. Haendel was German he may consider a English composer!!!
vuk1973july 1 year ago
@bentonpreciado We love you Handel!!!! <3
VONHIMMELBACH 1 year ago
@VONHIMMELBACH Haha we sure do!
bentonpreciado 1 year ago
bombastic in the best possible way ;)
beastinblack 2 years ago 4
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Ignorant people, this is music, not policy. Discuss of your political ideas out of there and go away
matteocostacurta 2 years ago
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matteocostacurta 2 years ago
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matteocostacurta 2 years ago
God bless our departed brother Frideric Handel, for producing such regal music which will live on forever. RIP Sir.
dazze17 2 years ago 4
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dazze17 2 years ago
Great - like all pieces of Handel!
camposi 2 years ago 4
It has to be great to enjoy a beautiful and magnificent piece that your grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-father contracted.
I wonder if G.F. Händel or King George II ever thought that it'll be appreciate, love and admire in the 2000's.
skipmx 2 years ago 4
Same on you! litle FASIST.
Learn History and after open your mouth.
Vive the DEMOCRACY!
prasini2 2 years ago
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God save the people of Greece and her Democracy.
Down the Monarchy!!!
prasini2 2 years ago
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keep close your mouth communist pig
and long live the monarchies,
Fuck all corrupt "republics" of the world
gueropalma1990 2 years ago
greece greets you and says
DEMOCRACY IS ALIVE
barbavassilis 2 years ago 3
god save the king and the monarchy
evidrio2 2 years ago 3
god save the king and the monarchy. vive la greece
evidrio2 2 years ago
On ouverture, the strings are wayyyy to overpowering. What makes this song excellent is the strong brass supposrtig behind the light strings. All the major brass entrances seem to be washed out by the strings. Anyone agree?
chreveir 2 years ago
Who is the conductor - I realise that he has done Last Night of the Proms but what's his name?
Sabatinitennis 2 years ago
It's in the description: Sir Andrew Davis.
GoFeri 2 years ago 2
phantastisch!!!!!!!!!!
LandauPfalz1 2 years ago
This music really is the dogs bollox. Brilliant. Also good to see you made it just before the 10 minute deadline!
grumpyoldgitt 2 years ago 3
Yessir! The surround sound is just fantastic!
ve2so 2 years ago 3
The fireworks could have been better !
FIREWORKEVENTS 2 years ago
It is not easy to capture the true sound of fireworks with audio equipment then reproduce it on speakers without distortion. To do so properly would require insulating the orchestra with sound barriers then using a huge aray of microphones. That would not be practical for a live performance with an audience. Somewhere, there is always a compromise. Some pieces are best appreciated live in person.
shatros 2 years ago
Dolby 7.1 surround sound. It blew my mind!!!
alx187 2 years ago 2
they become faster and faster, the conductor tries to catch them but no chance ;-) The sound is like it must be
Trompeter1971 2 years ago
Yay for no period instruments.
MagicMarti 2 years ago
Playing music written before 1900 or so on instruments with a modern setup should be illegal. The truth is, string players were still using gut strings until the 1950s or so. Even the great works of Romantic composers should be played on instruments appropriate for that era. Gut strings, keyless brass, and hard timpani sticks should be universally employed. Baroque and renaissance music is not the only music we should be concerned with playing on authentic instruments.
baroqueboy 2 years ago
baroqueboy. I can see where you're coming from but disagree. Whether baroque or modern, each has a validity. I personally love both and it certainly doesn't take away any grandeur of the original.
grumpyoldgitt 2 years ago
Illegal? Ha. I'm aware of the historical significance of them, I just prefer the sound of modern instruments and it's hard to find recordings with them sometimes. And playing natural horn is a bitch, so I'm really glad we don't have to play everything on historically accurate instruments!
MagicMarti 2 years ago
This is simply wonderful!!!
leoperarm 2 years ago 7
I forgot about this piece. I'm gong to have to pull this one out to do with my orchestra. Of course it won't be this grand.
cellfrk90 2 years ago
se puede hacer mas rápido...
galkap 2 years ago
Amazing! would be better without the strings. Fully military style just like how King George II prefered it to be.
aaronwon1985 2 years ago
wow. maybe they did it that way because Handel WROTE IT THAT WAY. Feel bad for u.
bobjoe117 2 years ago 2
The sound of civilization . . .
YaMar911 2 years ago 33
This is an excellent piece. I played this with one of the youth orchestras I'm in. The trumpet part is pretty hard, and these guys make it sound so easy!!! It's pretty cool!!!
tptmaster90 2 years ago
very well written......a masterpiece...
MYJESUSROCKS 2 years ago 5
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I CAN PLAY THE MINUET MOTHER FUCKERS!
firetamer102 2 years ago
meany :(
lovelikeajonas 2 years ago
So amazing!!!. Thank you. Cheers!!!, ~Sergio Wagner.
ottokees 2 years ago
This is a nice piece. Nice interpretation, especially the Allegro. I played this for a wedding (a LOOONG wedding) F. Horn.
9level9 3 years ago
THE TRILLS ARE AMAZING!
zekew32394 3 years ago 2
yeah strange indeed, given that Handel is German. I guess it is because BBC has made it part of the national psyche by airing it everywhere.
Adamalgorithm 3 years ago
I don't think it's strange at all since Handel moved to England in 1710 and lived there for the rest of his live and he composed the royal firework in his later years.
BratscheChen 3 years ago 4
A beautiful piece by a great coposer!
lasprince 3 years ago 6
I played this like 3 hours ago. :]
It's was really cool.
heartsurgerykate2 3 years ago 2
Great performance, GREAT GREAT HANDEL the greatest composer music ever had!!! Glory and honour to Händel.
armycasa 3 years ago 7
This piece of music made me a classical music fan. I've branched from Barroque, but it still holds a dear place in my heart. Rule Britania! Thank God for Handel. Masterful performance.
gdbalck 3 years ago 28
@gdbalck: rule britania - but Händel is german...
nolimitshos 9 months ago
@nolimitshos That may be so, but this piece of music was written specifically to celebrate the end of the War of the Austrian Succession in which Britain participated and was one of the victors. So, Rule Britannia indeed! Little fact, the King at the time was German and commissioned the work.
gdbalck 9 months ago
im playin this song and wen we play it it sounds nothin like this
hammyhamham789 3 years ago
prom palace than part at palace ?
muffles12 3 years ago
Good Heavens, quite lovely indeed isn't it...God bless them all.
jusitke07 3 years ago 2
GO OBOES!! :D
mikax39 3 years ago
nicely done.
jusitke07 3 years ago
French Horns RULEZZZZZ!!!
jaaronsh 3 years ago
I keep getting this music stuck in my head. but I don't mind. I love Handel, and this is my favourite work of his.
canadianfreespirit 3 years ago 3
Go cellos
katewinslet 3 years ago 4
God . . . it's amazing !!!!
PARISA7777 3 years ago 7
Go Flutes =]
washizujacob 3 years ago
Much as I admire Robert King`s RFM on period instruments, I prefer Handel`s later rescoring for full orchetra which he wrote for The Foundling Hospital, London as performed here at Buck House.
Ironically, this later version was intended for concert hall use, whilst the original scoring was for outdoor use. In these two videos they are the wrong way round. Still great Mr Handel though
bazalion 3 years ago 2
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i know how to play that in the flute part!