Yes, I'm quite glad you didn't take to insulting each other, either. Restores a little faith that I've lost for humanity, lol. What with the ad Hominems and what not.
If you still want to insult each other, I'd be happy to delete all your comments. Lol. :P
We started somewhere in armour I think? Then we went on to swords and their geometry, and how it affects and what. I'm completely happy with this discussion at least. It didn't turn out into insulting one another as they, sadly, usually do on the internet.
I didn't want to intervene at all, and I don't intend to as your debate is civil, but I just wanted to say that Japanese armor and European plate armor, whilst different is design and function, both utilized metal for the breast plating.
Obviously limiting movement in the Torso can hinder movement elsewhere on the body, Japanese armor doesn't have an advantage nor a disadvantage in that regard. In fact, armor 1500 Yrs. old can be seen in iron in Japan.
Well I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but not necessarily. Swordsmanship in any culture has ploys and techniques to catch enemies off guard, perhaps this was one? Could be a mistake or just simply because they know there lives don't depend on it, many variables come into play.
I'd possibly ask someone more experienced in the art of sword fighting.
@insertoriginaluser I think the point here is to assume the strike is hard enough. You basically turn it aside, instead of blocking it, leaving the attacker defenseless for a brief moment. That's when you strike back.
@DiabolusIgnis More or less, the impetus of japanese swordsmanship is to go from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. In fact in most cases your first strike comes in the same movement when you pull the sword from its scabbard.
@DiabolusIgnis True enough speed is always useful, but it's pretty had to move very quickly if you're a western knight in plate armor. Most early western styles focused more on power to get their blade past the lighter armor sections on their opponents, but a katana is literally sharp as a razor and curved so it doesn't take as much force to deliver a serious wound. And yes most people would have drawn their swords, that's why isido teaches to "fight from the draw" as I believe the term goes.
@tendoking48 A man used to plate armour could move relatively fast. Besides this, the japanese used armour too. Leather mostly, but it weights too. No, they didn't really. They focused on hitting in the head or giving a chance to do so. Nothing implies that a katana would be sharper than any other sword if sharpened. The curving makes it such that it cuts more than does an impact. A straight sword is not worse at injuring, it just works a bit differently.
@DiabolusIgnis Heavy, yes, but also built differently, I've heard plenty of people saying that samurai armor didn't restrict movement as much. As for how sharp they were, there is something to it, perhaps not the planes od the edge but the geometry of the blade itself, the katana is shown to have a convex lead down to the edge while an english or german sword were more often concave, this pushed material away from the blade and allowed it to cut deeper, this has been proven plenty of times.
@tendoking48 I've heard, seen and tested that a plate armour (when properly done) doesn't restrict movement at all. Do you mean the middle in the sword, which curves inwards to the blade? That's to increase flexibility as well as drop the weight a bit. Or please explain more =P
@DiabolusIgnis Where the blade tapers down toward the edge. On a katana that area it convex and curves outward, it also allows the blade to mush the material it's cutting away from itself. If you can find the episode of modern marvels called "world's sharpest" it will explain it much better than I can. Solid french or gothis plate would hinder movement, it might be well articulated, but it's still extremely hot, heavy, and has a solid breastplate which would make it much harder to bend in.
@tendoking48 I'm still not sure about what you mean. If the edge itself curves outward, it wouldn't be sharp? Those armours are hot of course, but so is one made of leather too. Trust me. That breast piece wouldn't hinder bending in, as AFAIK it's impossible to bend your chest at all.
Right, they did, but japanese armor was designed more like a lamelar so the torso could still flex with your spine. The edge would still be sharp, the flat of the blade comes down and tapers toward the edge, more like the blade of an axe.
That is called a convex edge. A Hira-niku if you'd prefer, trust me I know about knife geometry. ;-)
Technically when you say "Taper towards the edge" this can be misconstrued, so it helps to know terminology. A person could get it confused with a flat zero grind as opposed to a Hira-ziku. ^_^
@tendoking48 Hmm, but I still don't see how it would hinder movement, as at least I can't bend my torso anywhere. (I can't bend much anything, though.)
I see now what you mean! =) Seeing quite a few western, straight swords, and comparing them to the few Japanese I've seen, I'd like to say that the edge doesn't differ much at all. Sure, the blade might be a bit thicker (one or two millimeters), to increase durability, but the edge itself still is as thin in both.
Europeans have used grinding wheels since the roman empire I believe. A grinding wheel results in one of two bevels, Hollow or Convex. A katana, while it does have a large zero edge, did start at the Shinogi until its termination to the edge, and traditionally convex (Hira-niku).
This results in a very sharp edge, but it is still a very chunky convex that is capable of taking some abuse. As with Euro swords, I'm not experienced. :)
@JesusFuckingChrist84 Mostly Italian longswords from 1200CE, as well as some German ones, comparing to 3-4 different Japanese swords I've seen. Difference is, the European ones are made for live combat, the Japanese ones for show. If I understood right, all of these blade designs are durable and sharp? You're probably right at your point where you talk about how they cut into the body.
I need images soon, my English skill won't let me understand clearly what you're meaning... >.<
It is true that they are not designed for battlefield use, Yari and Yumi and things of that nature were reserved for that purpose, but the katana certainly wasn't sword not capable of taking abuse. Sword was something you carried on the battlefield as a backup and in daily life, mostly as a weapon for duels and close quarters, what have you. Most certainly ceremonial purposes, as well, however.
Again, different swords have different purposes. I did not mean to sound patronizing.
In fact, in warring times one can observe ornate Hamon in katanas and during warring time basic Hamon like Notare and things of that nature. Chunkier geometry and more durable swords were produced in warring times as opposed to peaceful times when swordsmiths could forge for ceremonial purposes or for Samurai or those of status. :)
@JesusFuckingChrist84 You're completely true about that. But I'd like to compare those made properly, without any time or material problems. (I still don't understand Japanese terms, except for katana) =P
I meant that the katanas I've seen IRL were just show swords. Of course most were made for fighting too, as well as to show one's status. =)
@DiabolusIgnis The edge may be as thin, but the geometery leading down to that edge make a big difference. A katana can slice straight through a good sized length of bamboo with one stroke, something you can't do with a machete or hatchet. Granted I've never seen it attempted with a western sword, but I'm fairly confident :p
You absolutely can slice through bamboo with a single stroke, I take it you've never seen a cold steel video. ;P
A traditional katana has a chunky Hira-niku, which is absolutely conducive to hard cutting, but saying that a machete can't cut through bamboo in a single stroke simply isn't true.
If I can find the video, I will, but I've seen a fellow here on youtube cut through a *Pig corpse* in one stroke, that is much more impressive than bamboo. :)
@tendoking48 Sure, the blade does create more friction if it's thicker, but it's mostly the sharpness and the technique that counts. If you try to axe-strike the bamboo, it will utterly fail with any type of sword.
Bad cut with Japanese sword.
watch?v=OfpZc2fOhbc&playnext=1&list=PL51A7426D18D1922A He strikes badly, which leads to an unbroken tatami.
Good cut with European sword.
watch?v=HNEBpu8eDsU&feature=related He strikes well, leading to a broken tatami.
@DiabolusIgnis Well that's a given, the technique is far more valuable than the blade you use (so long as they match up) and moreover I've entirely forgotten how this discussion started in the first place.
Yes, I'm quite glad you didn't take to insulting each other, either. Restores a little faith that I've lost for humanity, lol. What with the ad Hominems and what not.
If you still want to insult each other, I'd be happy to delete all your comments. Lol. :P
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
We started somewhere in armour I think? Then we went on to swords and their geometry, and how it affects and what. I'm completely happy with this discussion at least. It didn't turn out into insulting one another as they, sadly, usually do on the internet.
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis & tendoking48
I didn't want to intervene at all, and I don't intend to as your debate is civil, but I just wanted to say that Japanese armor and European plate armor, whilst different is design and function, both utilized metal for the breast plating.
Obviously limiting movement in the Torso can hinder movement elsewhere on the body, Japanese armor doesn't have an advantage nor a disadvantage in that regard. In fact, armor 1500 Yrs. old can be seen in iron in Japan.
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-IM_GWGis
andreizotov1234 1 year ago
Katana vs Wakizashi = Katana wins
moxigen 1 year ago
@moxigen On what basis? I think it's the skill that wins.
DiabolusIgnis 11 months ago
I don't know very much about Jap sword fighting, but shouldn't you continue covering yourself with your blade while yielding at 0:41?
insertoriginaluser 2 years ago
Well I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but not necessarily. Swordsmanship in any culture has ploys and techniques to catch enemies off guard, perhaps this was one? Could be a mistake or just simply because they know there lives don't depend on it, many variables come into play.
I'd possibly ask someone more experienced in the art of sword fighting.
Thank you,
Sal
JesusFuckingChrist84 2 years ago
@insertoriginaluser I think the point here is to assume the strike is hard enough. You basically turn it aside, instead of blocking it, leaving the attacker defenseless for a brief moment. That's when you strike back.
That's what I think, at least.
DiabolusIgnis 11 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis More or less, the impetus of japanese swordsmanship is to go from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. In fact in most cases your first strike comes in the same movement when you pull the sword from its scabbard.
tendoking48 11 months ago
@tendoking48 AFAIK they try to do that A to B movement as fast as possible everywhere. Usually people would have drawn their swords before attacking.
DiabolusIgnis 11 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis True enough speed is always useful, but it's pretty had to move very quickly if you're a western knight in plate armor. Most early western styles focused more on power to get their blade past the lighter armor sections on their opponents, but a katana is literally sharp as a razor and curved so it doesn't take as much force to deliver a serious wound. And yes most people would have drawn their swords, that's why isido teaches to "fight from the draw" as I believe the term goes.
tendoking48 11 months ago
@tendoking48 A man used to plate armour could move relatively fast. Besides this, the japanese used armour too. Leather mostly, but it weights too. No, they didn't really. They focused on hitting in the head or giving a chance to do so. Nothing implies that a katana would be sharper than any other sword if sharpened. The curving makes it such that it cuts more than does an impact. A straight sword is not worse at injuring, it just works a bit differently.
Sorry for the tacky style, I'm tired...
DiabolusIgnis 11 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis Heavy, yes, but also built differently, I've heard plenty of people saying that samurai armor didn't restrict movement as much. As for how sharp they were, there is something to it, perhaps not the planes od the edge but the geometry of the blade itself, the katana is shown to have a convex lead down to the edge while an english or german sword were more often concave, this pushed material away from the blade and allowed it to cut deeper, this has been proven plenty of times.
tendoking48 11 months ago
@tendoking48 I've heard, seen and tested that a plate armour (when properly done) doesn't restrict movement at all. Do you mean the middle in the sword, which curves inwards to the blade? That's to increase flexibility as well as drop the weight a bit. Or please explain more =P
DiabolusIgnis 11 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis Where the blade tapers down toward the edge. On a katana that area it convex and curves outward, it also allows the blade to mush the material it's cutting away from itself. If you can find the episode of modern marvels called "world's sharpest" it will explain it much better than I can. Solid french or gothis plate would hinder movement, it might be well articulated, but it's still extremely hot, heavy, and has a solid breastplate which would make it much harder to bend in.
tendoking48 11 months ago
@tendoking48 I'm still not sure about what you mean. If the edge itself curves outward, it wouldn't be sharp? Those armours are hot of course, but so is one made of leather too. Trust me. That breast piece wouldn't hinder bending in, as AFAIK it's impossible to bend your chest at all.
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis & JesusFuckingChrist84
Right, they did, but japanese armor was designed more like a lamelar so the torso could still flex with your spine. The edge would still be sharp, the flat of the blade comes down and tapers toward the edge, more like the blade of an axe.
tendoking48 10 months ago
@tendoking48
That is called a convex edge. A Hira-niku if you'd prefer, trust me I know about knife geometry. ;-)
Technically when you say "Taper towards the edge" this can be misconstrued, so it helps to know terminology. A person could get it confused with a flat zero grind as opposed to a Hira-ziku. ^_^
Oh mydo I love discussion about swords. :D
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
@tendoking48 Hmm, but I still don't see how it would hinder movement, as at least I can't bend my torso anywhere. (I can't bend much anything, though.)
I see now what you mean! =) Seeing quite a few western, straight swords, and comparing them to the few Japanese I've seen, I'd like to say that the edge doesn't differ much at all. Sure, the blade might be a bit thicker (one or two millimeters), to increase durability, but the edge itself still is as thin in both.
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis
Depends what swords you were comparing. ;-)
Europeans have used grinding wheels since the roman empire I believe. A grinding wheel results in one of two bevels, Hollow or Convex. A katana, while it does have a large zero edge, did start at the Shinogi until its termination to the edge, and traditionally convex (Hira-niku).
This results in a very sharp edge, but it is still a very chunky convex that is capable of taking some abuse. As with Euro swords, I'm not experienced. :)
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
@JesusFuckingChrist84 Mostly Italian longswords from 1200CE, as well as some German ones, comparing to 3-4 different Japanese swords I've seen. Difference is, the European ones are made for live combat, the Japanese ones for show. If I understood right, all of these blade designs are durable and sharp? You're probably right at your point where you talk about how they cut into the body.
I need images soon, my English skill won't let me understand clearly what you're meaning... >.<
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis
Japanese swords were not for show, necessarily.
It is true that they are not designed for battlefield use, Yari and Yumi and things of that nature were reserved for that purpose, but the katana certainly wasn't sword not capable of taking abuse. Sword was something you carried on the battlefield as a backup and in daily life, mostly as a weapon for duels and close quarters, what have you. Most certainly ceremonial purposes, as well, however.
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
@JesusFuckingChrist84 Of course they weren't. I mean that those I've seen are purely for show purposes. I have no idea of what Yari and Yumi means D:
And I do know what swords were for... ;P
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis
Again, different swords have different purposes. I did not mean to sound patronizing.
In fact, in warring times one can observe ornate Hamon in katanas and during warring time basic Hamon like Notare and things of that nature. Chunkier geometry and more durable swords were produced in warring times as opposed to peaceful times when swordsmiths could forge for ceremonial purposes or for Samurai or those of status. :)
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
@JesusFuckingChrist84 You're completely true about that. But I'd like to compare those made properly, without any time or material problems. (I still don't understand Japanese terms, except for katana) =P
I meant that the katanas I've seen IRL were just show swords. Of course most were made for fighting too, as well as to show one's status. =)
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis
When you said "That those I've seen," I instantly thought you meant on the internet. I was being presumptuous, my fault!
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis The edge may be as thin, but the geometery leading down to that edge make a big difference. A katana can slice straight through a good sized length of bamboo with one stroke, something you can't do with a machete or hatchet. Granted I've never seen it attempted with a western sword, but I'm fairly confident :p
tendoking48 10 months ago
@tendoking48
You absolutely can slice through bamboo with a single stroke, I take it you've never seen a cold steel video. ;P
A traditional katana has a chunky Hira-niku, which is absolutely conducive to hard cutting, but saying that a machete can't cut through bamboo in a single stroke simply isn't true.
If I can find the video, I will, but I've seen a fellow here on youtube cut through a *Pig corpse* in one stroke, that is much more impressive than bamboo. :)
JesusFuckingChrist84 10 months ago
@tendoking48 Sure, the blade does create more friction if it's thicker, but it's mostly the sharpness and the technique that counts. If you try to axe-strike the bamboo, it will utterly fail with any type of sword.
Bad cut with Japanese sword.
watch?v=OfpZc2fOhbc&playnext=1&list=PL51A7426D18D1922A He strikes badly, which leads to an unbroken tatami.
Good cut with European sword.
watch?v=HNEBpu8eDsU&feature=related He strikes well, leading to a broken tatami.
It's the technique.
DiabolusIgnis 10 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis Well that's a given, the technique is far more valuable than the blade you use (so long as they match up) and moreover I've entirely forgotten how this discussion started in the first place.
tendoking48 10 months ago
I have this DVD!
kendoka0girl 2 years ago
DVD you say?
I'm hearing more and more things about this that I previously didn't know, PM a link if you would?
( But FYI, I found this and put it up for people interested, I'm not trying to market this as my own, don't get the wrong idea. ;) )
JesusFuckingChrist84 2 years ago