Charlie Rose - Guest Host Bill Moyers with philosopher...

[theoryac]

the 24th and 25th minute nails it

[Jabulon88]

im not sure about this guy. the need of god is evident in every cultur and person. given that god is care and trust etc.

denying god seems like a stretch. it wouldnt have been taken care of in our culture, if it was totally meaningless.

[LinkD3]

"he's a self described Bright"

hahaha wow

That's not cocky immature and self righteous at all !!!...

[reasonableHUMAN]

Despite the way Dennett phrases it, atheists being unable to disprove god and theists being unable to prove god doesn't leave us at a "complete stand off." The burden of proof is on the theists because they are proposing the existence of something. The negative is an easier stance to defend.

[sleeplessnights7745]

28:40

[ptsheffer]

the whole "bright"/ "gay" thing has been done with atheists before. They called atheists "freethinkers" and "intellectuals," both of which are now titles atheists gladly claim. Also, "big bang" was something used to ridicule atheists, they would ask "You really believe it all just began with a big bang?" And of course, thats exactly what happened

[TomPaineII]

I'm so excited! I'm going to see Dan Dennett next week at Stanford!

[MononofuBlood]

TomPainell,

You lucky dog.

[benjaminlane20]

I agree. What I would give to see him speak!!

[NihilistImp]

If you can claim to be a "bright" the same way you can claim to be a Baptist or a Buddhist, it only goes to further my fear that much of atheism's recent notoriety is doing little but turning it into another religion in the eyes of the Trendies and the Fundies. Moreover, I was happy with the non-homosexual connotation laden term "atheist", both un-presumptuous and logically descriptive as it may be.

[joshmusicbox]

if the argument in the first part about the legitimacy of spirituality is tiresome for you, skip to the last 5-10 minutes. It's the most interesting and contains his main point - just to ask the question: what should we do about the standoff between atheists and believers?

[vadimcream]

I had a good deal of what I suspect were out of body experiences years ago. The most significant time it occurred I perceived a very out of the ordinary (and specific) thing that was happening just outside my door. When I woke up I jetted outside to see if it was indeed happening, and it was. All of the exact specifics were there, down to the people, what they were wearing, the weather... I've had similar things happen, but nothing quite as uncanny as that one time...

[noventar]

I think deep down everyone is an Atheist, religions makes us more peaceful, purposeful, and happier

sometimes, people deserve better than the truth

[FCPALERMO]

I NEED SOMEONE TO TALK TO

wanting new friends cb

[vincemcneal600]

how many chicks do you think this philosopher has banged?

[feinorgh]

At least one, since he has children.

[noventar]

I just noticed this guy has the same facial hair style as Charles Darwin...

[vincemcneal600]

lol

[vadimcream]

72 virgins.

[twags32689]

i love Dan Dennet!

[galamies]

The audio and video are totally off sync... does anyone know of a better version where the video and audio are in sync and/or possibly a one with subtitles(in English)? English isn't my first language and I miss some parts or have to listen to them many times and the fact that the video and audio are off sync isn't helping...

[dvrjosh]

And a sailor, HOOYAH! :)

[econogate]

I used to think i was athiest then when i was 16 I had a Death Experience and somehow made it back without total death, so needless to say I switched to agnostic or that something happens and we do leave our bodies and go somewhere, I don't know what or where but we do go on. Trust me I wanted to think in terms of nothing, but I was just kidding myself. Sure I am not into any specific religion at all, but I know we don't just die. Maybe the atheists could meet us halfway? Cheers!

[vadimcream]

Being an atheist does not necessarily mean discouting the idea of life after death. It really has more to do with not believing in religous interpretations of god. It is also possible (although I'm not saying this is the case) that consciousness continues after death in spite of there being no god, religous version of or otherwise.

[andrewtheman19]

The idea of consciousness after death seems like a leap of faith equal to the kind of faith needed to subscribe to a religion IMO.

[vadimcream]

I don't think it's equal but yes, it is significant. I, myself have had some stunning experiences that have left me undecided (not about religion but of the possibility of consciousness having a life outside the body). I'm a rational thinker, so the skeptic in me says they were events of irregular brain activity, but they were convincing enough for me to leave the question open...

[andrewtheman19]

Go with the skeptic side. Nothing good will come from the other.

[vadimcream]

No harm comes in placing equal bets on either side for this one.

[andrewtheman19]

Fair enough, but the reasons we place equal bets are important. Do we place them because we know we can't be certain, or because we want a 50 percent chance for something appealing?

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of experiences have you had?

[joshmusicbox]

this statement is just as irrational as his.

[andrewtheman19]

OMG now I can see the light. Don't bother explaining why or anything, just say I'm wrong, makes you look awesome.

[mccote]

this is brilliant

[moproducer]

This is very cool, Moyers & Dennett; they could have intentionally taken Rose off the program for this. Moyers, an ordained Baptist preacher-turned-journalist, is one of the most open-minded societal researchers ever. I'm a Christian, but I have to respect Dennett's position and his non-militant attitude. If there were more discussions of this level going on, the world would be a calm & peaceful place...

[arcious]

Fantastic discussion ! I really enjoyed that

[splashsixty]

I am in his class at Tufts University. Dear lord (ha!) I am privileged.

[hymnofashes]

What Dan does so much better than Dawkins or Hitchens is that he scrupulously and exactly targets the metaphysical certainties without overstepping himself with a political agenda or a sweeping denunciation that ignores the emotional and social functions of religion.

[fulfilled123]

Thank you Mr Dennett. Sense at last, I challange any religious person to not chang their views but at last listening to a man who talks SENSE at last.

[cryptoprocta]

muslims must understand christianity and judaism to know islam

[cryptoprocta]

how could religion be anything other than a natural phenomenon lol

[cristedin]

"religion - infrastructure for moral teamwork"

[buckfushes]

Doesn't Religion form people into little teams. On a larger scale, like the world scale, it divides people against each other right?

[Hufflewaffle]

He has no consideration of the experiential. He is looking at us from the outside in - as all science does. What about looking at us from the inside out? If my good friend dies, I don't want someone standing next to me telling me my feelings are triggered by a biological reaction. I want someone to empathize and connect with.

[Hufflewaffle]

The 'agent' he talks about is an identification with ourselves. Sure it has a biological but so what? We're biological beings. The literal meaning of the word Re-ligion is to 're-link' or to link back to the source of our being. Science has nothing to offer this other than explanation from the outside looking in. In many ways it can't identify or measure God because it has taken God's place. It cant describe our experience. Only art and ritual can do that.

[feinorgh]

I think you are mistaken. Science is a means of finding truths about our existence. Research can take any perspective (and often does) to explain things on different levels. There is no logical or rational barrier for science to find both a quantitative and qualitative explanation for the "source of our being". Science is not just "hard science", which is what you seem to identify it as, it can be wonderfully artful and awe-inspiring too. Just read "Gödel, Escher, Bach" to name just one example.

[Hufflewaffle]

We already 'know' the source of our being. Biology tells us everything we need to know right? Art and Ritual are expressions of the human experience of life. Yes science does inspire art, but Science is about knowledge. Experience is what Art and Mythology are about. Different things! The mistake is assuming that they are one and the same. It doesn't matter if its a priest pushing creationism as science, or a scientist pushing evolution as proof god doesn't exist. Both are equally blind.

[stoneddan]

"scientist pushing evolution as proof god doesn't exist."

Your kidding right? Why even bother talking about something you have no idea about! Ignorance eh, it will be the end of all of us.

[Hufflewaffle]

Not kidding at all. Many people seem to take the view that science somehow makes religion obsolete just as many people seem to think religion somehow trumps empirical fact.

I don't know what exactly you think I have 'no idea about' but I suspect shallowness will end us before ignorance does. Not so much a bang as a 'whimper'. Thank you for yours.

[Reido2828]

I agree it is the belief system in general that seperates humans. I am not religious but it is natural and that gives even more reason to our existence as we are apart of the universe. Has Dennett checked out Eastern philosophy?

[omgutubeismylife]

this is why youtube is my favorite site

[kingsman565]

His granny must be ashamed.

[Animas3D]

This was great.

[Animas3D]

Although I don't think that Moyers gets it.

[redflags123]

What an extraordinarily illuminating discussion!

[bmikesci]

I can't believe this guy gets up and says that he doesn't advertise his atheism. What does he call flogging his book?

He may or may not have some good ideas, but it seems to me - he should own up to his advocacy.

[beebobox]

you miss a lot of points and you often ask people when they're talking near you, "what do you mean", dont you?

[TaylorThaHick]

I am an atheist, and I have to agree. Dennett's argument is DEVASTATING to religion, and he cannot soothe the faithful with flase modesty. I sometimes prefer the "in your face" atheism of Christopher Hitchens, or Richard Dawkins, even though Dan Dennett is quite effective, because he slips under the religious armor.

[Reido2828]

It is natural check out neurotheology and you will see thathis claims and theories are indeed true. If there is an after life it is natural and not supernatural.

[TaylorThaHick]

I looked up the term neuro-theology, and it seems to be about spiritual experiences correlating with a particular brain state. This is not evidence for an afterlife. Don't be afraid to embarce reason, it won't bite.

[Reido2828]

Um if one chooses to believe in an after life and believes in reason they are not crazy nor are they doing anything immoral. The soul came into culture by philosophers not by religion. Eastern thought is a good place to start. don't go by our western traditions or religions because they were debunked centuries ago but Hinduism and Buddhism are compatible with science specifically the old traditions are wisdom and philosophy. It is not suppose to be a religion. message me back when you read more.

[hymnofashes]

Honestly, Dennett is the smartest one of them.

He deconstructed consciousness. Jesus.

His book doesn't give you that satisfying oomph because he realizes that the logical nuts and bolts of theism vs. atheism are not the chief issues in winning the argument, even though we atheists love watching an orderly validation of our position.

[flyingdrake]

that is brilliant, "how many different types of atheist do i have to be"

[flyingdrake]

homosexual kidnapping?? here i thought it was long established underground queer slang for each other that was eventually brought in as positive mainstream alternative to the more explicitly sexual sounding homosexual. queer is also undergoing a similar change of meaning, from a pergorative to an edgy affirmative title used within a group.

[k9lionheart]

a troublemaker? he looks like santa. jk. His book is pretty good though.

[atpal]

Who does your research? John Cage died in 1992. The composer of the 9/11 piece they're referring to is named John Adams.

[125sea]

Dear Bill Moyers

you are one of my favorite hosts !

Thank you for inviting Daniel Dennett -

sober and beautiful thinker.

Thank you for this video!

Love to you both !

Leo

[ahm319]

Bill Moyers makes himself look so dumb

[widgetbrain]

how so ?

[erion628]

why should myslims get to know christianity and not vice versa? i think curan makes way more sense than bible.

[kissmybu]

Koran and Bible are both total bullshit. The reason the Koran has less blatant contradictions is because unlike the Bible it had a single author.

As far as which is more interesting, I think the Bible stomps on the Koran.

But both books are void of any real sense of moral decency and need to be seen not as guidelines for our lives, but rather as fascinating remnants of early civilization.

[Rwmhos]

First of all, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are worlds apart. Read history about it. Noone threatens with death. But the fact remains: everyone dies and what's next? All cultures centre around this issue: life and death. Anyone who tries to avoid it lives in confusion. Orthodoxy is based on millenia of wisdom (scientific, philosophical , and spiritual alike) and revelation, it is not a system made up to hypnotize people.

[mattb521]

Such a great interview. 5 stars.

[seanbeach2]

The inflexibility of the religion sympathizer is something that will never cease to amaze me.  Moyers is by most accounts a reasonably if not very intelligent guy but he has no ability to see the metaphoric and in some cases outright poetic language that Dennett has written and not try to see a literal biblical type connection to it. He makes the classic Christian move of trying to see everyone as an undercover Christian.

[RedPandaBoy]

well moyers is a christian.. and as smart as he is.. he is still a christian, so much of this goes against his belief.

But I think he was trying to be fair. I find it funny when pepole say he's anti christian...

[ContraWagner]

Moyers has some short comings. I think he doesn't get over the powerful illusion of Cartesian dualism. Nevertheless he's still a good journalist. I think he is trying to be fair.

[sherwood1947]

G-d is dead---Nietzche

Nietzche is dead---G-d

[mismos00]

Nietzche is God

[4ourthofjuly]

I have that book, nietzsche (yes there is an "s" in his name, you skalar) did say that, but when did god tell you that nietzsche is dead?

Did he tell you that while you were sleeping? Or maybe you were waiting in line for something?

[johnclavis]

Dennett is a lucid and engaging speaker. His ideas are thought-provoking and easily accessible. He's a good example of the "militant atheist" supposedly out to destroy religion in America. Compare the sedate wisdom of Dennett with the dishonest blatherings of, say, Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. Reason 1: Religion 0!

[Rwmhos]

I meant Dennett, not Fodor. I had in mind Fodor's work for a different reason. Consider it a typo. Merry christmas & Happy new year to all.

[johnclavis]

I find it amazing that you could type so much and yet say so little. "There is no science, no human endeavour without the question of god embedded in it as a constitutional act"? Do you get paid to write abstruse drivel like this, or is it simple some sort of bad habit?

Merry Xmas and all the rest to you, as well.

[Rwmhos]

I'm a scientist, a hard core one, too. But, there is no excuse for ignorance when facing death. There crumbles all the "wisdom" of pseudoscientific man. And no one escapes it.

[4ourthofjuly]

A hardcore scientist? Is that like science, but louder?

Christians, always threatening us with death and hell.

Why would anyone invite you to their birthday?

[vdizhoor]

Dennett is cool! He is the living example that demonstrates that whoever said that Santa Clause doesn't exist is woefully mistaken :).

Thanks for the post! And merry Chrismas and a Happy New Year.

[Rwmhos]

...Dr. Fodor and his like are pagans to a profound level and entraped into their own ideals, trapped in the ideal of truth and far away from the communion of truth. Te natural evolution of the Greek world has led to the antrhopological perfection within Orthodoxy, to deification. Read the awarded "Aristotle East and West" by David Bradshaw and you may find a western approach to this matter, something that westerners could relate to. {end}

[Rwmhos]

...they were desperately reached out for the truth and not the use of things (as it is the norm today). The interpretation of Greek thought by the western civilization gave birth to Catholicism and all western versions of Christianity, one that it is not Christianity but paganism since god is constructed mentaly & intellectually.

[Rwmhos]

......If you believe that Greek civilization is the forerunner and the base of the western one, you leave in Catholic Christian dreamland (yes, even the you agnostics, gnostics and the like who denounce religion). There is no science, no human endeavour without the question of god embedded in it as a constitutional act. Ancient Greeks, for instance, where deeply theistic but not religious and not pagan;

[Rwmhos]

...I need to get into an argument as much as I need to enter into an argument with an 8-year old who persists that chocolate is good because they like it. Such naive and childish metaphysics-based interpretation of nature and god can exclusively be found in western thought, not in Greek thought....

[TaylorThaHick]

God is real and good because you like him :)

[Rwmhos]

For the pretentious rationalists here, the ones that speak in the name of science, rational thought, the ones who have swallowed the golden pill that whatever is not accessible to a childish version of "reality" it does not exist, the ones who believe that "ratio" is synonymous to the Greek "logos", the ones who believe that the world is only mattter (or energy for that matter) and it consists of the nature solely, ....

[fibonaccihead]

Very cool, but as someone said earlier, what the hell is he talking about John Cage after 9/11. He died in 1992.

[johnclavis]

Maybe he meant Philip Glass. I get all those guys confused, too. Self-important artfags!

[mrpossibilities]

What the? I find a video that has Charlie Rose interviweing Daniel Dennett and it's the only episode where Charlie Rose isn't in??????????

[beautifulspam]

Wow. Moyers keeps throwing up objections while Dennet admits the objections and incorporates them into his argument. Fun to listen to : )

[Rwmhos]

D. Dennett's work demonstrates quite amply the case of victimization by western christianity. People that are aware of the significance and nature of the Schism in christianity can see how highly educated people like D. Dennett can be trapped in intellectualization. To conclude with an ancient Greek proverb, "OYK EN RHMASI ALLA EN PRAGMASI H ALH8EIA".

[scorpdan]

"Trapped in intellectualization" ... Listen to yourself. It amazes me when religious people try to turn a person's own "Intellect" and use of rational thought against them in the pursuit of inherently irrational supernatural beliefs. Plus, it seems to be a new tactic of the religious right these days to claim that THEY are victims. If that's the case, it's time to start taxing those fat wealthy churches.

[quathar]

So how did you yourself come to this conclusion? Rational thought perhaps? So you are disproving your own point.

[TaylorThaHick]

When someone want to sneakily imply something and make it seem fair, they can use a made up word like "intellectualization" - the word you are searching for is rationalization, but that one won't help you either, because it means manufacturing justification for an emotional fixation after the fact - you want God to let you live forever, therefore you rationalize his existence.

[Rwmhos]

Man do not need to prove or disprove God, but just experience His presence. "Cogito, ergo sum" is childish in Greek-Roman East. I really do not need to convince you; there is a several-thousand year-old Greek cultural tradition to amply demonstrate it. If you can see it..  In the West God is constructed by ideas and thus it is a sophisticated form of paganism.

[TaylorThaHick]

Thats a bit interesting. We agree that god is constructed from ideas, ie - made up in the imagination of people.

We don't "need" to prove or disprove god, we need to survive, and believing in god threatens your survival, like all fantasy you believe enough to act on.

Feelings are not an avenue to the truth. Rational thinking is the only means to perceive the world.

[Rwmhos]

if your only means of perceiving the world is via rational thinking then you have restricted and condemn yourself into a ghost-like existence, a shadow of a man. It is arbitrary and irrational, if you like, to believe that humans popped up out of nowhere and are the masters of the universe. Humans do not survive by worshipping themselves. Narcissism is the means of schizophrenic self-destruction, by no means survival.

[TaylorThaHick]

Feelings matter, but feelings are not an avenue to the truth. Good feeings are a result of proper reasoning. And did I actually see you write that rational thinking is arbitrary and irrational? I am not sure you know what reason is.

Humans did not pop up out of nowhere, they are a result of billions of years of gradual evolution. Why create these straw man arguments? I'll tell you why, because you really can't invalidate my statements.

[Rwmhos]

You are right; I do not know what reason is for you, for reason is not the "seat of soul", as an eminent contemporary scientist/philosopher suggested, but soul is the seat of reason.

To conclude this exchange of --what ended up being-- monologues, it is by all means prudent to close with the metaphysical motto of your self-enslaved existence: "Good luck"... until you realize the nature of luck.

[funincluded]

What a bunch of pius pappity.

meaningless phrases that sound good

... "seat of the soul" wtf; c'mon man. C'mon.

[funincluded]

The more "possible" you think the idea of an afterlife, the more you need it.

You should try living a week as an atheist.

You won't loose any sense of meaning- believe me. You'll just loose the false placed and baseless notion of a need for a deity as a source of meaning.

I dare you to try living a week as if there is no god

I've lived more than a week as a Christian, so I've been on both sides of the fence.

[Rwmhos]

I'd practically lived as an atheist for almost all my life, believe you, I know what it feels like. I've not become convinced into believing a Christian ideology. They have brain washed you, typically western approach, into schizophrenic dichotomies of ideas, and then more ideas. History of western culture is so full of conceptions and ideas about anything, drowned into ideological wars and childish labyrinths; better leave such risky sports for the Greeks who can make it out of them alive.

[funincluded]

What the fuck are you trying to say?

schizophrenic dichotomies of ideas? get over yourself

[Rwmhos]

Humans are not ideas, they are living beings; we do not believe in humans existence because of ideas but because we experience living amongst them, have relationships with them! For the same reason you do not believe the idea of God but know God as you interact with him, for real, not in your mind, not in any trance or drug induced state, not because of delusions or illusions. But you have to try to have a relationship with him, as he is a real person not an abstract metaphysical puff of ideas!

[funincluded]

ooo- now I get it

Either you're not a natural speaker (in which case you're trying to form sentences outside of your ability)

Or you're a complete douche who can't write a clear idea

What the fuck is this sentence trying to say:

"For the same reason you do not believe the idea of God but know God as you interact with him, for real, not in your mind, not in any trance or drug induced state, not because of delusions or illusions."

There are about 6 ideas scrambled up in there

[Rwmhos]

I'm afraid you need to re-learn the use of English diacritics...

[funincluded]

Any error I made in PUNCTUATION was a minor one which did not affect the reading of the statement

...80% of your "sentences" were deplorable ramblings completely lacking in a clear meaning

for example:

"For the same reason you do not believe the idea of God but know God as you interact with him, for real, not in your mind, not in any trance or drug induced state, not because of delusions or illusions."

[funincluded]

...and English doesn't use diacritics. it uses punctuation.

One is for accenting words, the other for seperating parts of a sentence

[funincluded]

Why would you go into an explanation about how "we know humans exist because we experience them"... and then go to try and apply that to God?

If you try to have a relationship with an emotion, imaginary friend, or belief- you'll get one

...you're full of shit no matter how much satisfaction you get out of your beliefs

[Rwmhos]

I seriously doubt that you've ever lived as a Christian even for a second. Being Christian is not about following moral rules, being a good person, help others in need, avoid sins, trying to reach God by thinking about it and ritualising, and the rest pitiful bunch of scholastic, Augustinian and Charlemagne Greek-wannabie substandard constructions. If you were Christian for a long period of time, as you imply, then tell us what is the purpose of humans, and what is the aim for a Christian?

[funincluded]

Different answers from different Christians

-to please God through worship

-to learn important lessons to prepare you for heaven

-to spread God's word/save souls

-YES being a good person

... What's your point? The 'purpose' doesn't matter- your beliefs are wrong.

Who the fuck thinks it's about rituals? You're a moron to even suggest that was something to cross someone's mind

The rituals are there to make the beliefs seem more meaningful

...we all know it's not about thinking

[Rwmhos]

My point is that you amply demonstrated that you have NO idea whatsoever what Christianity is, being the victim of Catholicism and the like; and that you did believe in a God that exists only in your mind. The irony is that when you do find God to be real, a person, as you are, it might probably be a split second before you permanently close your eyes. Let it be, no one forces anyone into anything. Freedom is what God, whom you denounce so arrogantly, respects above all; and certainly me too.

[mikerpiker]

fuck i hate this audio lag

[mrpossibilities]

Me too but fortunately the conversation is interesting enough so that I can only listen to it without looking.

[nontheistdavid]

Here is what kills me about believers. They make claims that god is beyond science or is the unknowable etc etc. They don't realize when they say these statements themselves they ARE making claims about knowing something about god and hence contradicting themselves and disproving god. Don't let any theist get away with these loaded presumptions. If god was beyond or that being which no other being can be concieved then you have already disproven your claim.

[wesleyan97]

Hmm, John Cage died in 1992. Moyers meant John Adams.

[loganhuss]

Thanks for posting Charlie. Long time fan of the show.

[tspillan]

This was a good one, but an atheist will have only as much success disproving the existence of god as a zealot will have proving the opposite. Atheists can annoy me just as much as the other guys- no one KNOWS that there is no god and no one can prove it either. Really, the only rational position one can take is to say, "I'm an agnostic," I can't prove or disprove anything about god way. (And what's with the jew comment ivan?)

[mosherd96601]

That's a common misconception of atheism. No rational athest will tell you with absolute cetainty that god doesn't exist. They merely take the stance of improbability. This is the majority. Of course, you're likely to find extremes but they are most certainly outside the main stance of atheism. Obviously the line between agnosticism and atheism can often seem quite blurred. Furthermore, the burden of proof is not on the negative.

[JoeVialFilms]

Amen to that.

[TaylorThaHick]

Atheism I think, is superior to agnosticism. I could also walk around "open to the idea" that elephants can fly, but that would not serve my life in any way. In fact, such a stance is anti-life, to burden yourself with nonsense when sustained rational thought is so necessary.

[verybigliar]

Bill Moyers did a great job here.

By the way, Dennet sounds like he believes in God, he's just against organized religion...

[groundless]

you're obviously a liar. if anything dennett likes the communal, social aspect of organized religion, and opposes the idea of God

[ivanthegreat1980]

Religon Stated By Daniel C. Dennett Gives People an Excuse to Stop Thinking!

[ivanthegreat1980]

Thank You So Much Mr. Rose For Having My Favorite Show

Your Show Free On You Tube !

[johnclavis]

Thanks so much for posting this. Two brilliant men!