To be fair, The black skin "mark of Cain" theory predates the LDS. It was used in certain Christian sects to justify slavery. Noah cursed Canaan to be a "servant of servant" because he saw his passed out naked ass. However, this does not justify the LDS of taking that theory, running with it, and taking it to the next level.
Brigham Young was a prophet of God, but he was also human, and he was not perfect. In the Bible the prophet Jonah felt some personal prejudices against Assyrians. Of course the Mormon church is for everyone. "and he [God] denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile" 2 Nephi 26:33
@Cheshu1Even other intellectual critics of the church, admit that Joseph Smith was not racists. Plenty of historical evidence, pointing that Joseph was not racists, you are obviously being biased, Even other anti-mormons disagree with you./ Brigham Young said, " For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent." Young's comments were a condemnation of abuse and rape of helpless black women. Read the 1852 legislation, Lester Bush, he was not talking about marriage.
@Cheshu1 You take 2 Ne 5:21 out of context. the previous verse explains what the curse is. Compare white and delightsome with 4 Ne. 1:10; Morm. 9:6. 1 Nephi 12:23 and other book of Mormon scriptures, 2 Ne 5:21 was not talking about the skin. Prophets are not perfect, for example in the Bible, Jonah felt some personal prejudices against Assyrians, to the point of expecting the Lord to give them fewer blessings than to Jews. Now explain AB resistance or plant speciation without using evo. theory
@Cheshu1 First I didn't say anything about what my religion was so it is clear that you are the bigot for assuming- second - I already told you your filthy racist hypocritcal churches would even let anyone except for white people even sit in the pews - so go find out who you are first and then you can find out who other people are. It is lies and the hypocrisy that drives me toward LDS not away - you all make the word Chrstian a word of filth and sin. and atleat they are honest.
This was great! Props to you! I used to be Mormon and am kind of in a transition stage right now out of the church. I still hear comments today from members that are racist ("Did you hear that so and so is dating a black guy/girl??" or "Marriage is hard enough so a mixed race marriage would just be too difficult"...) The problem is that most of those members are old and do not even think twice about those comments being racist. But, I would say the vast vast majority of members are not racist.
@missmleblue I think the racism in this church is enough to raise alarms about. It is rhetoric like yours that allows racism to go unquestioned or talked about for the matter..BIGOT!
This will be my first and last comments about ignorant, deceitful&betrayers kinds of people, u cant fool us, the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth to us, theres no other Gospel, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints is the only true church. we r and will always pray for these people so they may know the truths.
this is crazy man, negros are evolving apes, not sons of cain, a super race came down to earth known as the watchers, and they created men , white men in their own image, thats why angels are always white, jesus was white, how often u hear about black angels??
Mormonism has "changed", but the scriptures they teach from have not and never will.
Incidentally hannibaltharadio, since it sounds like you are a Christian, you should know the bible, while not explicitly racist, nevertheless condones the practice of slavery, both in the Old and New Testament.
@patrickthesaint Yes, God did enslave his people (Jews) as a punishment for their sin. He also, allowed man to enslave other men of all nations. Are you aware that some slaves were of the same nation? Are you aware that slavery does not equal a certain pigmentation of the skin? Slavery of one person to another has been happening since Noah and maybe before. Are you aware that God did not tell men what to do until he gave the law to Moses? and then only to the Jews? Freedom comes from Jesus only!
@etcharrison I don't care what this imaginary being's justfication was, slavery is evil and always has been. If you read the Ten Commandments, you'll see that slavery is even condoned there. In fact God commanded Moses to take slaves. No, freedom does NOT come through Jesus. Jesus himself condones the practice of slavery in the Gospels. The bible NEVER condemns slavery, Old or New Testament.
@cocnutgurl11 You can't claim to be the restored gospel, the kingdom of God on Earth, the top religion, and then say, "Oh we don't believe that anymore so get over it." What Mormons must get over is the belief that they are the top religion.
might i add that those we call mormons are christians the title mormon was once used as a derogatory word aginst the latter day saints, i think you should have done a lot more research however no love lost. i have a question for you or anyone for that matter with so much separation and so much negative history christianity has why would i wan to ever be a christian?
hannibaltharadio after all that our black people has faced at the hands of white christans in america why would i want to be a cheistian? i did some research on this topic and found that blacks were Given the priesthood before the ban. You did not tell the people how this ban came to be and who came up with the cains legasy crap you will find out this was not created by the leader of the mormon church but a couple of racist brothers who were racist
with that being said its not the religon that is bad its the people , i was taught that the church is in the people and in every person there is sin, Remember when blacks could not hold office. vote , or sit on the front of the bus, when our parent teach us things we believe because we know they will never lie to us, so what happens when we find out they were wrong?
every religious faction has had leaders who have done shameful things, all branches of christianity has had their share or racism the only Christians in america who has never fell into this probilem are the Quakers. They are white and helped with the undeground railroad. Recism still exists in America but you dont see blacks moving back to africa and blacks were owned by Christian slave owners who reped black women sold the children and fathers and yet we still see black christians ..........
I grew up in "The Church", and from as long as I can remember have been taught about the "mark of Cain". I was also taught "the Prophet will NEVER lead you astray".
Yet Brigham Young did prevent Black men from receiving the priesthood.
I believe the actions of 1978 only took place do to social change in the nation brought by the Civil Rights Movement. I will stand by that.
Very good points made in this video, and Bruce R. Mcconkie's writings are quoted weekly in every LDS church. Good REF
I grew up in "The Church", and from as long as I can remember have been taught about the "mark of Cain". I was also taught "the Prophet will NEVER lead you astray".
Yet Brigham Young did prevent Black men from receiving the priesthood.
I believe the actions of 1978 only took place do to social change in the nation brought by the Civil Rights Movement. I will stand by that.
Very good points made in this video, and Bruce R. Mcconkie's writings are quoted weekly in every LDS church. Good REF
You are a HERO! Wonderful video. I was that same age as you in college. I remember a girl walked out during a mormon presentation when they didn't respond to a question on racism. I remember them so clearly. How dare they dictate the worth of me or anyone based on appearance. No one is safe! You really inspired me and gave me hope. Really. Thanks!!
You are a HERO! Wonderful video. I was that same age as you in college. I remember a girl walked out during a mormon presentation when they didn't respond to a question on racism. I remember them so clearly. How dare they dictate the worth of me or anyone based on appearance. No one is safe! You really inspired me and gave me hope. Really. Thanks!!
The guy on this video is WRONG. He calls Mormon racism a legacy (in the past). But Mormon racism is still with us to this day
Black people are representatives of the devil according to the 3rd prez of the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church & its leaders have said racist things and promoted racist doctrine that the Church has never admitted was racist, never repudiate or apologized for
We LDS should be judged by our actions & in-actions.
i think the black people are a choosen people of god ! solomon was a black man enoch was a blackman.you figure it out,maybethe curse of cain is the white people ?they cause all the destruction and murders of peoples and cause wars too nations.think about it.cain was the first deciever,murderer,greedy perseon,selfish ect ect.who controls all the money ? thats where evil roots its self.the curse just might be us white folk.?
The question one should be thinking about is not whether the Mormon church is unfair to blacks holding the priesthood. The most important thing to ask is, "Does the Mormon church have the priesthood or authority of God. Therein lies the most important question and the most important answer.
@Origin305 Ha ha dude your so right!! I love how people make up these lies especially because they don't even understand the curse of Cain. All they think about is the color/race and it has NOTHING to do with that.
@Origin305 Mormon President Taylor said black people are representatives of the Devil. Our Prophets & other leaders have made at least 100 other similar statements so this guy isn't full of crap. He's holding us LDS accountable.
Where I disagree with him is his framing our racism as a legacy - as in the past. Mormon institutional racism is STILL with us today. It did not end in 1978 because we have never repudiated & apologized for our racism
LOL! Jesus being born in the middle east would have been a man born of arab colored skin, (more like tan-brown, dark hair and brown eyes, etc) does this mean that there is a mark of cain on him?
Wow it's funny to be a Mormon and watch/listen to this crap. This freaking guy is a moron, pretty sure I am black, I have the priesthood and I am also in a higher calling in the church, any of you who believe this idiot is ridiculous. Pretty sure the "women and men mormon friends" that he has made that up. Gosh why is it that people make up crap just to smear others.
Profound statement that Mormons believed that black spirits were not worthy of the Lord's love (prior to 1978). That is the Mormon's racist denial of blacks to their (false) priesthood in a nutshell!
well all churches have been racist in this country.. the baptists brought slaves over from england saying that blacks were from the seed of ham and should be enslaved. so all churches have done that and they refuted it also
What you don't understand, jonny, is that if a person in a Christian church is racist, it is their own personal heart problem, as the God of the Bible is not a respecter of persons. If a Mormon is racist, then it is because it is a part of their doctrine. It still is, since their god has not renounced his/her/it's racism but changed his/her/it's mind just to allow them in a non-biblical priesthood. I'm surprised that all non-darkskinned Mormons are not racist.
@jonnygotz2343 I disagree. We Mormons claim to be the only faith led by a prophet of God. And you try to compare the Mormon Church to Baptists? Ha! Baptists don't claim to be led by a prophet of God
That's like Major League Baseball justifying steroid use because a child had a Flintstones chewable vitamin before he played T-Ball
If you research Brigham Young and blacks.. One theroy is that Brigham ordered that Blacks should not hold the priesthood, because an early Black LDS man, falsely claimed he was a prophet. Joseph Smith, ordained many black men to priesthood. Until Brigham, the church under Joseph, was not racist at all, Joseph did not dislikes blacks. Anyway, its not strictly racist, it was just doctrine , but it is the work of God, time changes and so do doctrine for the Lords purpose.
I'm a pround member (Black) of the LDS faith. Funny, you say the church has a controversal history with Blacks, but yet, you claim the Democratic party with pride. Do you know they were against abolisheing slavery?...just a thought.
@justamusta the church is a mortal institution...remember doe not worship the church, not even the head of the church which is Christ. This happens with alot of members. They get caught up in the church (whichis good), but sometimes forget focus emphasis on God. Even Christ said do not worship him, but the Father.
Yes, we do answer to a higher authority. I think you missed the point of what I was saying.
@BLKMRM We claim we're the only faith that is divinely guided by our prophet & restored gospel
But many Latter-day Saints like you make excuses for our Curse of Cain theology and rationalize the racist statements & gospel that remain on the books to this day. There's no divinity in that.
When you must resort to mental gymnastics like that it proves that the church is corrupt and can't stand up to the most basic critique
@BLKMRM We claim we are the only faith that is divinely guided by our prophet & restored gospel
But many Latter-day Saints like you make excuses for our Curse of Cain theology and rationalize the racist statements & gospel that remain on the books to this day. There's no divinity in that.
When you must resort to mental gymnastics like that it proves that the church is corrupt and can't stand up to the most basic critique
@justamusta I have made position known about the whole thing. I make no excuses for no one. Mental "what"...I love this church and thats all I have to say about that.
@Splintermetalgear I'm glad you brought up the Book of Mormon (cause I didn't). There is plenty of racist cursing going on in the Book of Mormon such as:
Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing ... they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
LOL so what??? Doesn't mean Mormons are racist, maybe you should read further into Alma and all of the Book of Mormon and see that the Lamanites (cursed skin, Native Americans) end up being more righteous than the Nephites that are white. The curse of the skin has nothing to do with racism, it's just a mark of someone who once sinned. LOL I don't get what your trying to argue, since when have we not let people of other color or creed into our church.
You said LOL so what??? about Book of Mormon racism. That reflects how backward & unenlightened Mormons are
Then you say The curse of the skin has nothing to do with racism, it's just a mark of someone who once sinned." Wow you made the point. The LDS Church is racist. You dont need me - youre kickin your own ass!
If you really are LDS, show your YouTube notes to your bishop. Hell tell you to stop cause youre exposing the truth about LDS racism
That's classic, like many many of my fellow Mormons, all you can do is attack people personally with adolescent name-calling.
But you haven't been able to explain why my argument is wrong and you're unable to coherently defend your ideas and beliefs. That calls into question the validity of your beliefs
Your not mormon dude... LOL you just play off that you are so you can play the charade of throwing others off. Nice signature by the way, how gay are you? LOL This is my last post, your seriously retarded and that signature proves it.
The Mormon church was the first church to even allow blacks to be members. Although they didn't have full rights to everything until 1978, 7 years after the civil rights movement was over, we were still the first. I still don't understand what your trying to argue. Especially because I am black and I hold a high calling in the Mormon (aka LDS church). Your an idiot man.
It depends on how you look at it, what do you think would have happened if they were allowed into the leadership of the church? Mormons would be murdered everywhere. When the Civil rights finally came into being it was changed. Basically, not allowing that would in turn protect black and white members from being hurt because of the racist people who condemned accepting religions. Your going to think I am an idiot, but it makes sense it was legal to kill Mormons in Missouri until 1964 just fyi.
@Splintermetalgear so you saying Brigham Young decision was not Revelation from God, but pragmatism in submitting to the racist beliefs commonly held at that time until post civil rights movement.
@PrinceSolomon82 Has nothing to do with racism... they were allowed in the church, in fact one of the biggest reasons why Mormons were murdered and migrated to Utah was because they were one of the few religions to back Abolishment of slavery and very Pro-civil rights, but you wouldn't know that because your reading all this derogatory crap against mormon's. I am not going to explain why they didn't have certain keys in the church because it would take forever to explain
Don't make assumption!. could the reason be cuz of Brigham Young statement (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110) that they didn't have certian key in the church.
if LDS were anti-slavery and Pro-civil Rights were victims cuz of it, then do you agree that Brigham Young was in error with his statement (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
Sure, I think it was worded incorrectly, but I am sure journalist have also changed the meaning and words. Also, in my own opinion, I think Brigham Young was a little too "fire and Brimstone" too, but he is human, he probably said some extreme things....It's not the people you believe in, it's the religion you believe in. Humans aren't perfect.
as Historian can you provide reliable sources of the actual quotes from B.Y proving his statement been distorted by journalist. you said "Humans aint perfect " i think agreed he was in error.
Of course he made errors dude, he is a Prophet (in our opinion), not Christ or God. He is human and makes mistakes and uses words that are otherwise offensive or says things where it's like, "Wait back up". Look at the Bible story David and Goliath, David was really righteous, but ended up fornicating with a women that he simply saw naked on a roof. Look..... my being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Lastter Day Saints helps me live a better life, eat healthy, -continued next comment
some of your points in your responses were unneccessary and irrelevant to my question was Brigham Young in error? u got defensive and like you're in a cult. This will my last post.
We are asked to work hard, study hard, give to the poor, sick, and hungry, love your neighbor, abide by the Ten commandments, try to be like Jesus. What is so wrong with that???? Yes there are people in our history that made mistakes, Mt Meadows Massacre etc... but crap happens. Meadows Massacre was basically a final straw with a couple Mormon families that were sick of friends and family being murdered so they killed others back and later were excommunicated. continued
We all make mistakes, every religion has had problems, just live a better life, and stop bashing other religions. Really where will it get you saying, "Well, you believe in weird shit!" That is what causes tension and wars, live together, vote for what you think is fair and right, do as you please, but don't insult others about their beliefs, I just commented because I am sick of people ripping on me when I just try to better myself and also help others. Anyway.... cheers
@Splintermetalgear Did we have a restoration or not? You can't on one hand say Brigham Young was only a human and on the other he was a prophet. If we Mormons do not hold our leaders accountable in their positions & callings, then we are merely a cult - If you study cults, you'll find that they do not hold their leaders accountable.
@justamusta You got a lot to learn, why don't you go move to Utah and take an institute class at BYU in Utah, you don't know what your talking about. When someone is a prophet it DOESN'T make them a god, they are still human...you don't even understand the curse of Cain you need to go speak to Professer at a BYU institute. You blowing smoke out your butt and have no idea what your talking about.
@Splintermetalgear I never said that a Prophet is a God. But what I am saying is, if a Prophet misleads or gives false teachings, then he or the Church should repudiate those errors and false teachings and apologize for them. Let's be accountable just like any legitimate organization in society. For example: we STILL officially believe that black people are representatives of the Devil. The Church has never repudiated Prez Taylor's teachings on that one.
@Splintermetalgear What you' seem to be saying is the Church believes that 1) In some cases racism is justified (blacks denied keys) & that 2) God endorses his Church's racism (but it's complicated to explain here)
I don't agree with those statements but I would have more respect for my Church if Monson came out & renewed the Church's endorsement of those statements
In fact, you could send a letter to Monson encouraging him to say what you're saying
@justamusta LOL Once again, you're full of it. It wasn't RACISM! Go read the Book of Mormon or something you have no idea what your talking about. It had nothing to do with color, nor race, stop spewing lies.
@Splintermetalgear if Mormon racism has nothing to do with color or race, then please tell me what Mormon racism has to do with.
And if you're saying that what the secular world defines as racism is not occuring and has never occured in the Mormon faith, then please explain what LDS treatment of black people is, t it is, if it is not racism.
@justamusta It's called keys given to certain people of the kingdom, once again, I know your not LDS, because your an idiot and you know nothing. Obviously, you don't know that Gentiles (or white's as YOU would call them) weren't allowed the keys back in the day, only the Jew's. Then Jew's weren't allowed the keys either, your just an idiot, this is my last comment... why don't you read the Bible, BoM, and everything else before you spread lies liberal faggot.
@Splintermetalgear You've expressed such nastiness & it's common from people like you who claim to be members of the Mormon Church. If you are Mormon, you're hurting the Mormon Church by resorting to bitter name-calling.
If all you can do is call me names like "faggot" in defense of "God's restored Church" it's further evidence that the Church isn't true
Otherwise, your explanation on how the racism in the Mormon Church isn't racism appears like racism
@justamusta LOL actually faggot means a gathering of sticks or stupidity... LOL how is that racist, man you are DUUUMMMMMMB! Anyway, last comment for sure this time, bye... poser who poses to be "OH I am a Pro Truth Latter-Day Saint" I am going to come up with a fallacious name and statement that I am LDS to try and boost my Pathos and act like I have a legitimate agrument. LOL! Go to school man, bye
@Splintermetalgear You've done an utterly miserable job of defending the Mormon Church. You say Mormon racism isn't racism but then fail to explain how it isn't racism and instead resort to more name-calling.
If the Church really is true these things would be simple to explain and the mark of the divine would be obvious. To gain legitimacy and leave our cult-ways behind, we must admit our racism, repudiate it and apologize
@Splintermetalgear You've done a miserable job of defending the Mormon Church. You say Mormon racism isn't racism but then fail to explain how it isn't racism and instead resort to more name-calling.
If the Church really is true these things would be simple to explain and the mark of the divine would be obvious. To gain legitimacy and leave our cult-ways behind, we must admit our racism, repudiate it and apologize
@jonyrock777 If our leaders aren't perfect, then let's admit our racism is racism, repudiate it & apologize. If we admit our Prophets & other Mormon leaders mis-led the Church on race, we will begin to shed our cult status 'cause we will be seeking to be accountable for our actions. Leadership is accountable, tyrants & cults excepted
The Baptists apologized for their racism but we have not apologized for ours. They're sorry & we aren't. Shame on us!
@justamusta I was saying that while this guy seeks to hold the church to a standard of racism and bigotry, he fails to call to question the Democratic party's (which he supports) history of racism against Blacks. Do you get it now? Your explaining of baseball and chewable tablets was a bad analogy.. witty, but doens't fit what I'm saying..lol..but its all good.
All they have are straw man arguments. You and I both know that there was not segregation in our church... Joseph Smith opposed slavery to the severest degree and as candidate for president, that was one of his platforms. If Joseph was allowed to REACH the oval office, it undoubtedly would have been him and not Lincoln who would have manifested equality for all.
What is being said in this video is true and you raised some very real questions. I was raised Mormon but left and this was one of the many reasons why. I'm glad that you had the courage to speak out about this. I gave this video 5 stars and am disappointed to see that it only averages 3.5, as everything you said are questions that you've rightly raised.
I'm also proud that Obama won the election, as I believe the American people chose the right guy and that he is doing a superb job.
These examples of "blackness" are not a metaphor, but actual skin color, according to ALLLLLL of the Prohpets, Presidents, and Apostles of Mormonism that spoke definitively on this issue.
THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, ...but this inequality is not of man's origin. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence]." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.
Luckily, the opinion of one man has no bearing on the core doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I could take tens of thousands of Christian opinions from decades and centuries before out of context, and similarly demonize ALL Christians for their racism.
Is that fair? No. Absolutely not.
Demonizing all Mormons because of the opinions of some will impede your ability to understand things clearly and correctly.
If all Mormons are racist, then all other Christians are too.
To anyone who has really studied this matter, it is well known that Mormon Doctrine is not the official doctrine of the Mormons nor has it ever been, and McConkie was not an Apostle at the time he wrote the book. When he wrote the book he had no authority do say what is and what is not LDS doctrine. A good portion of what McConkie wrote was his opinion and he states such in the book you cite. Where his opinion stops and starts, is not my strong suit
I do know that Bruce R McConkie was corrected by the then LDS president and that he had to make some corrections. Other than that, I would not be a reliable authority on the book other than it was not nor has it ever been published by the church and it was never accepted or cannonized if you will by the ruling body.
@neechee5150 This is a dishonest argument. If Mormon Doctrine was misleading, then why didn't Any Church authority stop its printing or ask Latter-day Saints not to read it?
Please, be truthful here, you're embarrassing yourself.
Just know that you've been given all the info that you need to search it yourself. The book of Abraham being false should be the biggest clue that Jo Smitty was a liar and a cheat..However even if you don't take that, the info I gave about the priesthoods and so on should also be enough to show you that Jo Smitty was incorrect and mislead people. To believe a lie after proof has been given is truly the epitome of spiritual deception. I'm finished.
I won't call them idiots but I will say that Blacks that follow LDS goobly gob after knowing that they mistreated blacks and thought (still think this way just not as vocal about it) of them that way for so long, must have problems with themselves. I don't see how any Black person can excuse this kind of treatment. I say this. They say that Blacks can hold the "Priesthood" however, you don't see any Black "apostles" and will never see a Black "prophet". I live in SLC and know that much.
The Celestial Room of the Tabernacle? Sorry lad but the Tabernacle is not the same thing the Temple. If you can't even get minor information right was makes you a credible source?
2 Nephi 26: 33 - For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and HE INVITETH THEM ALL to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and HE DENIETH NONE that come unto him, BLACK AND WHITE, bond and free, MALE AND FEMALE; and he remembereth the heathen; and ALL ARE ALIKE UNTO GOD, BOTH JEW AND GENTILE.
I'm sorry lindalds but you need to read more of the actual history of your church. Brigham Young was an incredibly racist man. Read any volume of the Journal of Discourses and you will come eventually come across something horribly racist, sexist, etc. (And please no one use the very tired excuse that the JoD is not doctrine. It was accepted as doctrine for a VERY long time and only when people started actually reading it and realizing how awful it was did the church start to distance itself
Yes, I've read those references in the J of D's. What you don't realize is that, by 19th century standards, those comments are NOT racist. Especially when you read them in the context of the rest of the speech.
And, no, the J of D's were NOT doctrine. SOME of what the leaders said was doctrine, but the books themselves were actually pamphlets sent to the Saints in Great Britain. The men who did the transcription of the talks sold them. We have living prophet now, not Brigham Young.
Also, did you know that it was part of church policy instituted by Brigham Young that if any white person were discovered having sexual relationships with a black person they were to both be killed on the spot. Blood Atonement. Google it.
No, not both of them. Blacks had NO power back then. White men could use black women in anyw ay they wanted and the woman, or even her brother or father or husband, could do nothing about it, or he could be killed by the whites.
He told the white man who held the priesthood of God that if he had sex with a black woman, HE (not her) was WORTHY of death on the spot. Not that he WOULD be killed. .
I think you would agree wtih that.
BTW, just FYI, inter-racial marriage was illegal back then.
If the LDS church is truly the church of Christ, then our prophets are prophets of God. If they claim that, for whatever reason (officially, we are never told why blacks of African descent could not hold the priesthood) that a certain group of people cannot have the priesthood, because God said, then you can't fight against God, right?
But, if we are NOT God's church, and our priesthood is man made, then we didn't do blacks any favors by giving them the priesthood, correct?
Dear lindalds... Ever considered that LDS prophets (especially the 2 original ones, JS&BY) are false prophets, which the Bible warns us about plenty of times? Those "prophets" made the people believe a lie. The lie was that God wanted men to marry many women, when Jesus restated the intent of marriage, was as it always had been since the days of Adam&Eve, the bonding of ONE man to ONE woman (Matt. 19:4-6) To believe your prophets, one has to believe God lies and is changeable! (see D&C132)
And, you know, if Jesus warns us about FALSE [prophets, then there must be TRUE prophets. Otherwise, He would warn about anyone saying they were a prophet.
God never said marry MANY women. He did say that some men could have more than one. But, most men who had more than one had no more than two or three.
And what abouat all those prophets in the old testament who had more than one wife?
You're right! GOD never said marry many women! He didn't even say to marry 2or3. It was done in OT times because the people had degenerated, worshiping idols even. Altho Abraham wasnt perfect in the marriage dept, at least he was sincere in trying to follow the one true God. If youre familiar w/the story you know that it was Sarai who convinced her husband that he should marry Hagar, NOT God, like JS said in D&C 132:65. BTW both JS&BY had over 30 wives (way over the 2or3 you say is okay)!
First, Abraham was not the only prophet in the OT with more than one wife.
Second, I didn't say 2 or 3 was ok, I said, most men only had 2 or 3, of the few who had more than one. I know that a couple three of them had many wives. Most of JS's and a good many of BY's were in name only. Seems that women had more rights married than unmarried, even if they were widows.
Have you ever read the books by Mary Frances Sturlaugson Eyre? She was raised in Tennessee, one of 16 kids, who's brothers told her that if she joined teh LDS church, they WOULD kill her. They DID cut her out of the family. She hated whites growing up. She hated Mormons. But, she finally read the Book of Mormon, and joined the LDS church in 1976, before the revelation. Ask HER why blacks join the LDS church. Go to blackLDSdotORG and see why any blacks would join the LDS church.
Some past leaders made remarks who WERE probably racist, or at least, prejudiced against blacks. But they were not speaking for the church. Even Bruce R. McConkie stated, after the 1978 revelation, that whatever ANY LDS leader said before, it was wrong and to be ingored.
It's a sad fact that many life Mormons are still racist, especially those in Utah. It's not something I am proud of, and one reason why I refuse to live in Utah. I am a convert, raised to see all races as equal to God.
What a lot of ignorant Mormons believe is not necessarily what the LDS church teaches and believes. All these things you say that some Mormon kids told you, you will NEVER hear any LDS general authority EVER saying. Even those little sound bites supposedly said by Brigham Young, he was NOT racist, not by the standards of his day. Many LDS prophets said that they wished that they had been the ones to make the claim to the world that God would now give the priesthood to all worhy male members.
"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood... This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending Him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possible being born in darkest Africa- if that
negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel.
to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."
"Race Problems-As the Affect the Church" Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the college level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah August 27, 1954
Yup. Mormon leaders of the past have been extremely racist. If I posted half of Brigham Young's comments on the "vileness" of the African race it would curl your hair. I don't think most are racist today but to try to say that they never were is false.
I am not a christian. I am an atheist and damn proud of it. I was raised in the mormon church and know a hell of a lot more about it than most mormons do. Have you read Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View: Mormon Origins"? An Excellent book written by a believer. If you have and can still believe after reading that then your brain has seriously been fucked up.
I am a member of the church. I would say the answer to that is yes. It is hard to find official documents/scriptures that outline this past policy. There were African-Americans ordained to the preisthood before the ban.
There have never been any racist scriptures in the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
If you are referring to the curse of the Lamanites - then you have been mislead. They were not "cursed" with black skin - it never says that. They had a curse put upon them, and then there was a "mark" which was darker skin. The color of their skin was not the curse.
Besides, the Lamanites eventually became more righteous than the Nephites. Color of skin had nothing to do with salvation.
It's not something that can be understood right off the bat.
So, I guess, if you want to truly understand the myth of so-called Mormon "racism" you can't "dance" around the issue yourself, but need to delve more into the topic.
It's GOD'S priesthood and GOD decides who does and does not get it. He has His own reasons, which He does not have to share with us.
However, if one do not believe that this is GOD'S priesthood, then why would one fight so hard to get something for others that they don't want for themselves? If we are pretending that we speak for God, and usurping a priesthood we have no authority to confer, then wouldn't it be a favor to blacks that they do not receive a blasphemous priesthood?
lindalds: I dont want your priesthood I escaped the brainwashing of Christianity five years ago. I dont believe in god especially your god. Mormonism is a Protestant cult anyway and Christians don't see Mormons as Christians. Religion is destruction to human evolution.
Like I said, I don't know why non-Mormon blacks were so bent out of shape over something that they didn't want. Those blacks who DID want it also understood that it was GOD'S priesthood and when God said so, they would have it.
Why do you think blacks joined (or wanted very badly to join) our church, even knowing that they could not hold the priesthood?
Some black who joined could have been brought up Mormon either by adopted families, orphanages, neighborhoods etc. they could have been in a poor country and Mormons needed people so they helped them in hopes of converting them.
Some, yes, but there were converts, also. Look up Mary Frances Sturlaugson Eyre.
And the thousands of Africans in Ghana and Kenya who wanted to join but had to wait.
Before 1978, however, I heard that missionaries were sometimes telling blacks that the black persons should not be talking to the missionaries because of the ban. That would come up immediately. Like, "Blacks can't hold the priesthood, are you sure you still want to talk to us?"
If he says that God says something that he knows darn good and well that God didn't say, then he's not a good prophet.
He IS allowed to have his own opinions on things, and it doesn't make a difference to him as a prophet if his opinions are right or wrong. God does not tell a prophet everything He knows, only what God wants him to know.
God never changes, but He can change how we worship Him.
Then you don't have the first idea of what a prophet really is. God tells His prophets what He wants said prophets to know and nothing more. Prophets are allowed to have their own opinions on things. They do not have to rely on God for every little thing.
So, God telling Moses that everyone must follow the Law of Moses to the very letter, or the consequences stated there are to be carried out, no questions asked? Moses was a prophet, and God never changes, that's what you said.
God is perfect, man is not. NO man is perfect. God does not force any man to be what he cannot be.
If all prophets and apostles (and those who wrote the Bible are either prophets or apostles) never made mistakes, then every account of historical spiritual significance would be totally in sync. But, the four gospels do not always jibe, and one will tell of something that the others didn't or coundl't have happened as written.
You must understand that I was Christianized for 20 years and it is common orthodoxy that if a *prophet* makes just one error when revealing what is supposed to come directly from GOD then they are done forever. There is no compromise in this teaching because a true *prophet* is a conduit for GOD.
Research ancient Egypt ie Kemet. First trinity: Heru, Asar, Aset. First single almighty GOD Amen-Ra, which is why you say *Amen* after praying. Hebrews got the idea there. Then Came Catholicism, then Protestantism with its countless denominations. THEN came Protestant cults such as LDS and JWs.
If I am speaking with an atheist, then obviously I will not rely on the Bible for any convincing power.
With Atheists, it's easy. I simply tell them to prove to me that God does not exist.
You can't and never will be able to. So all of your "logic" and "intellectualism" cannot even be utilized to prove your whole foundation in life - that there is no God.
There were never any racist scriptures in our church.
There was nothing that said blacks were bad or evil or anything like that. In fact, nothing about blacks of African descent at all.
No one knows why blacks of African descent, or black Africans, were denied the priesthood for so long. I'm not going to speculate. But, we do believe that, in 1978, God laid it on the hearts of all our leaders that this ended. And that was put IN to our scriptures.
I have read the scriptures that spoke about blacks being cursed for not fighting valiantly in the magical Mormon war before earth etc. its a carry over from the Talmud. Dont try and lie to me.
None of those verses, the ones from the Book of Mormon, say anything about blacks of African descent.
Moses and Abraham seem to. But, only in relations to the priesthood, and only back in those days. In fact, in Abraham, it says that Pharoah was blessed with all blessings except the priesthood, which is what the LDS church had always maintained, that blacks would be blessed with all blessings, except the priesthood.
Not the ones in the Book of Mormon, cause it's taking place in the Western Hemisphere, where there WERE no blacks of African descent.
And the ones in the P of GP were not advocating racism of any kind. I don't see it. Because I don't read them and immediately think "Wow! I need to be racists against blacks!" Even black Mormons read them and I don't see them saying "Those verses say you are racist against me.
Before the Civil Rights movement, there were many Christian churches that refused to allow blacks to worship integrated with whites. The Southern Baptist church was started to keep blacks out. Very few allowed blacks and whites to worship sholder to shoulder. Those that did integrate would have blacks sitting in the back and whites up front.
Not the LDS church. Blacks were always members, and worshipped right next to everyone else.
lindalds: Sure Christians were racist in their own ways too. I mean they owned slaves. This doesnt mean that Mormons werent racist. Now they might have been more tolerant because of the prodigious they experienced. Unfortunately though, this didnt translate into 100% equality. This is a historical fact. Be honest now.
What might seem racist to us today, was not racist then; in fact, I think that JOseph Smith and Brigham Young were quite forward thinking in their day as far as blacks were concerned. When Joseph ran for POTUS, he did it on an abolishtionist platform. Rumor has it he wanted to buy up ALL the slaves in the south and free them. When the Mormons headed west, many slaves came with them, to freedom.
You are making excuses for racism. The priesthood ban was lifted about 30 years ago. I was alive during the ban. We arent talking 150 years ago. You should be ashamed for defending such vile doctrine!
I am from Brazil, living in SLC and I cannot believe taht one day I got baptized as mormom, coming from Brazil I have African ancestors.....
isle153 4 months ago
To be fair, The black skin "mark of Cain" theory predates the LDS. It was used in certain Christian sects to justify slavery. Noah cursed Canaan to be a "servant of servant" because he saw his passed out naked ass. However, this does not justify the LDS of taking that theory, running with it, and taking it to the next level.
r8rfanizme 6 months ago
Brigham Young was a prophet of God, but he was also human, and he was not perfect. In the Bible the prophet Jonah felt some personal prejudices against Assyrians. Of course the Mormon church is for everyone. "and he [God] denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile" 2 Nephi 26:33
TheSkepticChristian 6 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian yeah the church is onkly for people that can stay clean shaven and put on a front...
lilbeaveymac 6 months ago
@Cheshu1Even other intellectual critics of the church, admit that Joseph Smith was not racists. Plenty of historical evidence, pointing that Joseph was not racists, you are obviously being biased, Even other anti-mormons disagree with you./ Brigham Young said, " For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent." Young's comments were a condemnation of abuse and rape of helpless black women. Read the 1852 legislation, Lester Bush, he was not talking about marriage.
TheSkepticChristian 6 months ago
@Cheshu1 You take 2 Ne 5:21 out of context. the previous verse explains what the curse is. Compare white and delightsome with 4 Ne. 1:10; Morm. 9:6. 1 Nephi 12:23 and other book of Mormon scriptures, 2 Ne 5:21 was not talking about the skin. Prophets are not perfect, for example in the Bible, Jonah felt some personal prejudices against Assyrians, to the point of expecting the Lord to give them fewer blessings than to Jews. Now explain AB resistance or plant speciation without using evo. theory
TheSkepticChristian 6 months ago
@Cheshu1 First I didn't say anything about what my religion was so it is clear that you are the bigot for assuming- second - I already told you your filthy racist hypocritcal churches would even let anyone except for white people even sit in the pews - so go find out who you are first and then you can find out who other people are. It is lies and the hypocrisy that drives me toward LDS not away - you all make the word Chrstian a word of filth and sin. and atleat they are honest.
seazonzGreetingz 6 months ago
100 % right
pinkballoon77 7 months ago
This was great! Props to you! I used to be Mormon and am kind of in a transition stage right now out of the church. I still hear comments today from members that are racist ("Did you hear that so and so is dating a black guy/girl??" or "Marriage is hard enough so a mixed race marriage would just be too difficult"...) The problem is that most of those members are old and do not even think twice about those comments being racist. But, I would say the vast vast majority of members are not racist.
171anonymous 10 months ago
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missmleblue 11 months ago
@missmleblue I think the racism in this church is enough to raise alarms about. It is rhetoric like yours that allows racism to go unquestioned or talked about for the matter..BIGOT!
LAWTV1 11 months ago
THANK YOU FOR THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION. I WAS A MORMON AND I KNOW WHAT IS SAID IN THIS VIDEO IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
eternalloveabbie 11 months ago
It was not the tabernacle - its was the temple. Please do not disrespect our belief. Thanks for being objective.
tdougallify 11 months ago
This will be my first and last comments about ignorant, deceitful&betrayers kinds of people, u cant fool us, the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth to us, theres no other Gospel, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints is the only true church. we r and will always pray for these people so they may know the truths.
CWMaua12 1 year ago
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this is crazy man, negros are evolving apes, not sons of cain, a super race came down to earth known as the watchers, and they created men , white men in their own image, thats why angels are always white, jesus was white, how often u hear about black angels??
wolverine223 1 year ago
Mormonism has "changed", but the scriptures they teach from have not and never will.
Incidentally hannibaltharadio, since it sounds like you are a Christian, you should know the bible, while not explicitly racist, nevertheless condones the practice of slavery, both in the Old and New Testament.
patrickthesaint 1 year ago
@patrickthesaint Yes, God did enslave his people (Jews) as a punishment for their sin. He also, allowed man to enslave other men of all nations. Are you aware that some slaves were of the same nation? Are you aware that slavery does not equal a certain pigmentation of the skin? Slavery of one person to another has been happening since Noah and maybe before. Are you aware that God did not tell men what to do until he gave the law to Moses? and then only to the Jews? Freedom comes from Jesus only!
etcharrison 1 year ago
@etcharrison I don't care what this imaginary being's justfication was, slavery is evil and always has been. If you read the Ten Commandments, you'll see that slavery is even condoned there. In fact God commanded Moses to take slaves. No, freedom does NOT come through Jesus. Jesus himself condones the practice of slavery in the Gospels. The bible NEVER condemns slavery, Old or New Testament.
patrickthesaint 1 year ago
omg, that is like from the fifties! get over it! thats how it used to be but now it aint, just forget it already, let go of the past.
cocnutgurl11 1 year ago
@cocnutgurl11 You can't claim to be the restored gospel, the kingdom of God on Earth, the top religion, and then say, "Oh we don't believe that anymore so get over it." What Mormons must get over is the belief that they are the top religion.
CViewpoints 1 year ago
might i add that those we call mormons are christians the title mormon was once used as a derogatory word aginst the latter day saints, i think you should have done a lot more research however no love lost. i have a question for you or anyone for that matter with so much separation and so much negative history christianity has why would i wan to ever be a christian?
shondell1976 1 year ago
hannibaltharadio after all that our black people has faced at the hands of white christans in america why would i want to be a cheistian? i did some research on this topic and found that blacks were Given the priesthood before the ban. You did not tell the people how this ban came to be and who came up with the cains legasy crap you will find out this was not created by the leader of the mormon church but a couple of racist brothers who were racist
shondell1976 1 year ago
with that being said its not the religon that is bad its the people , i was taught that the church is in the people and in every person there is sin, Remember when blacks could not hold office. vote , or sit on the front of the bus, when our parent teach us things we believe because we know they will never lie to us, so what happens when we find out they were wrong?
shondell1976 1 year ago
every religious faction has had leaders who have done shameful things, all branches of christianity has had their share or racism the only Christians in america who has never fell into this probilem are the Quakers. They are white and helped with the undeground railroad. Recism still exists in America but you dont see blacks moving back to africa and blacks were owned by Christian slave owners who reped black women sold the children and fathers and yet we still see black christians ..........
shondell1976 1 year ago
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I grew up in "The Church", and from as long as I can remember have been taught about the "mark of Cain". I was also taught "the Prophet will NEVER lead you astray".
Yet Brigham Young did prevent Black men from receiving the priesthood.
I believe the actions of 1978 only took place do to social change in the nation brought by the Civil Rights Movement. I will stand by that.
Very good points made in this video, and Bruce R. Mcconkie's writings are quoted weekly in every LDS church. Good REF
TheStevenglenn 1 year ago
I grew up in "The Church", and from as long as I can remember have been taught about the "mark of Cain". I was also taught "the Prophet will NEVER lead you astray".
Yet Brigham Young did prevent Black men from receiving the priesthood.
I believe the actions of 1978 only took place do to social change in the nation brought by the Civil Rights Movement. I will stand by that.
Very good points made in this video, and Bruce R. Mcconkie's writings are quoted weekly in every LDS church. Good REF
TheStevenglenn 1 year ago
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You are a HERO! Wonderful video. I was that same age as you in college. I remember a girl walked out during a mormon presentation when they didn't respond to a question on racism. I remember them so clearly. How dare they dictate the worth of me or anyone based on appearance. No one is safe! You really inspired me and gave me hope. Really. Thanks!!
cheerfulerik 1 year ago
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You are a HERO! Wonderful video. I was that same age as you in college. I remember a girl walked out during a mormon presentation when they didn't respond to a question on racism. I remember them so clearly. How dare they dictate the worth of me or anyone based on appearance. No one is safe! You really inspired me and gave me hope. Really. Thanks!!
cheerfulerik 1 year ago
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cheerfulerik 1 year ago
The guy on this video is WRONG. He calls Mormon racism a legacy (in the past). But Mormon racism is still with us to this day
Black people are representatives of the devil according to the 3rd prez of the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church & its leaders have said racist things and promoted racist doctrine that the Church has never admitted was racist, never repudiate or apologized for
We LDS should be judged by our actions & in-actions.
I'm Justa: Pro-truth latter-day Saints
justamusta 1 year ago
How can you say all this without having talked to Gladys Knight?
DizzyDerwish 1 year ago
I wonder what goes through the minds of black concervative republican mormons? I'm sure some exist.
turboboy68 1 year ago
i think the black people are a choosen people of god ! solomon was a black man enoch was a blackman.you figure it out,maybethe curse of cain is the white people ?they cause all the destruction and murders of peoples and cause wars too nations.think about it.cain was the first deciever,murderer,greedy perseon,selfish ect ect.who controls all the money ? thats where evil roots its self.the curse just might be us white folk.?
oldviolinat48 1 year ago
The question one should be thinking about is not whether the Mormon church is unfair to blacks holding the priesthood. The most important thing to ask is, "Does the Mormon church have the priesthood or authority of God. Therein lies the most important question and the most important answer.
emkaylua 1 year ago
dude who made this video? You are full of crap brother. Mormons never said you cant be saved because you are black. This is a straight up lie.
Origin305 1 year ago
@Origin305 Ha ha dude your so right!! I love how people make up these lies especially because they don't even understand the curse of Cain. All they think about is the color/race and it has NOTHING to do with that.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear What does Curse of Cain have to do with if it does not have to do with race/color?
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint.
justamusta 1 year ago
@Origin305 Mormon President Taylor said black people are representatives of the Devil. Our Prophets & other leaders have made at least 100 other similar statements so this guy isn't full of crap. He's holding us LDS accountable.
Where I disagree with him is his framing our racism as a legacy - as in the past. Mormon institutional racism is STILL with us today. It did not end in 1978 because we have never repudiated & apologized for our racism
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
LOL! Jesus being born in the middle east would have been a man born of arab colored skin, (more like tan-brown, dark hair and brown eyes, etc) does this mean that there is a mark of cain on him?
Rypaul5217 1 year ago
Wow it's funny to be a Mormon and watch/listen to this crap. This freaking guy is a moron, pretty sure I am black, I have the priesthood and I am also in a higher calling in the church, any of you who believe this idiot is ridiculous. Pretty sure the "women and men mormon friends" that he has made that up. Gosh why is it that people make up crap just to smear others.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
Profound statement that Mormons believed that black spirits were not worthy of the Lord's love (prior to 1978). That is the Mormon's racist denial of blacks to their (false) priesthood in a nutshell!
NHisMage 2 years ago
well all churches have been racist in this country.. the baptists brought slaves over from england saying that blacks were from the seed of ham and should be enslaved. so all churches have done that and they refuted it also
jonnygotz2343 2 years ago
What you don't understand, jonny, is that if a person in a Christian church is racist, it is their own personal heart problem, as the God of the Bible is not a respecter of persons. If a Mormon is racist, then it is because it is a part of their doctrine. It still is, since their god has not renounced his/her/it's racism but changed his/her/it's mind just to allow them in a non-biblical priesthood. I'm surprised that all non-darkskinned Mormons are not racist.
NHisMage 2 years ago
@jonnygotz2343 I disagree. We Mormons claim to be the only faith led by a prophet of God. And you try to compare the Mormon Church to Baptists? Ha! Baptists don't claim to be led by a prophet of God
That's like Major League Baseball justifying steroid use because a child had a Flintstones chewable vitamin before he played T-Ball
LDS Shame: Curse of Cain
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
If you research Brigham Young and blacks.. One theroy is that Brigham ordered that Blacks should not hold the priesthood, because an early Black LDS man, falsely claimed he was a prophet. Joseph Smith, ordained many black men to priesthood. Until Brigham, the church under Joseph, was not racist at all, Joseph did not dislikes blacks. Anyway, its not strictly racist, it was just doctrine , but it is the work of God, time changes and so do doctrine for the Lords purpose.
MathersTL212 2 years ago
Curse of Cain: Monson's Shame.
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 2 years ago
I'm a pround member (Black) of the LDS faith. Funny, you say the church has a controversal history with Blacks, but yet, you claim the Democratic party with pride. Do you know they were against abolisheing slavery?...just a thought.
BLKMRM 2 years ago 2
@BLKMRM I disagree. We Mormons claim we're the only faith that has a Prophet who talks to God - so we must answer to a higher authority
But you compare the Mormon Church to a mere mortal institution like the Democratic party? Ha!
That's like Major League Baseball justifying steroid use based on a child having a Flintstone chewable vitamin before he plays T-Ball
Mormons: We must decide if we really had a restoration or not. We can't have it both ways
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 2 years ago
@justamusta the church is a mortal institution...remember doe not worship the church, not even the head of the church which is Christ. This happens with alot of members. They get caught up in the church (whichis good), but sometimes forget focus emphasis on God. Even Christ said do not worship him, but the Father.
Yes, we do answer to a higher authority. I think you missed the point of what I was saying.
BLKMRM 2 years ago 2
@BLKMRM We claim we're the only faith that is divinely guided by our prophet & restored gospel
But many Latter-day Saints like you make excuses for our Curse of Cain theology and rationalize the racist statements & gospel that remain on the books to this day. There's no divinity in that.
When you must resort to mental gymnastics like that it proves that the church is corrupt and can't stand up to the most basic critique
Curse of Cain: Mormons' Shame
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 2 years ago
@BLKMRM We claim we are the only faith that is divinely guided by our prophet & restored gospel
But many Latter-day Saints like you make excuses for our Curse of Cain theology and rationalize the racist statements & gospel that remain on the books to this day. There's no divinity in that.
When you must resort to mental gymnastics like that it proves that the church is corrupt and can't stand up to the most basic critique
Curse of Cain: Mormons' Shame
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 2 years ago
@justamusta I have made position known about the whole thing. I make no excuses for no one. Mental "what"...I love this church and thats all I have to say about that.
BLKMRM 2 years ago 2
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Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear I'm glad you brought up the Book of Mormon (cause I didn't). There is plenty of racist cursing going on in the Book of Mormon such as:
Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing ... they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
LOL so what??? Doesn't mean Mormons are racist, maybe you should read further into Alma and all of the Book of Mormon and see that the Lamanites (cursed skin, Native Americans) end up being more righteous than the Nephites that are white. The curse of the skin has nothing to do with racism, it's just a mark of someone who once sinned. LOL I don't get what your trying to argue, since when have we not let people of other color or creed into our church.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
You said LOL so what??? about Book of Mormon racism. That reflects how backward & unenlightened Mormons are
Then you say The curse of the skin has nothing to do with racism, it's just a mark of someone who once sinned." Wow you made the point. The LDS Church is racist. You dont need me - youre kickin your own ass!
If you really are LDS, show your YouTube notes to your bishop. Hell tell you to stop cause youre exposing the truth about LDS racism
Im Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
LOL I don't need to talk to trailer trash cracker like you. Go away, you have no idea of the garbage that spews from your mouth
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
That's classic, like many many of my fellow Mormons, all you can do is attack people personally with adolescent name-calling.
But you haven't been able to explain why my argument is wrong and you're unable to coherently defend your ideas and beliefs. That calls into question the validity of your beliefs
Mormon Shame: Curse of Cain
Monson: Where is Official Declaration III?
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
Your not mormon dude... LOL you just play off that you are so you can play the charade of throwing others off. Nice signature by the way, how gay are you? LOL This is my last post, your seriously retarded and that signature proves it.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
The Mormon church was the first church to even allow blacks to be members. Although they didn't have full rights to everything until 1978, 7 years after the civil rights movement was over, we were still the first. I still don't understand what your trying to argue. Especially because I am black and I hold a high calling in the Mormon (aka LDS church). Your an idiot man.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear was Brigham Young("Mormon Moses") in error wrong for banning priesthood for black members between 1848-1976?
PrinceSolomon82 1 year ago
It depends on how you look at it, what do you think would have happened if they were allowed into the leadership of the church? Mormons would be murdered everywhere. When the Civil rights finally came into being it was changed. Basically, not allowing that would in turn protect black and white members from being hurt because of the racist people who condemned accepting religions. Your going to think I am an idiot, but it makes sense it was legal to kill Mormons in Missouri until 1964 just fyi.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear so you saying Brigham Young decision was not Revelation from God, but pragmatism in submitting to the racist beliefs commonly held at that time until post civil rights movement.
PrinceSolomon82 1 year ago
@PrinceSolomon82 Has nothing to do with racism... they were allowed in the church, in fact one of the biggest reasons why Mormons were murdered and migrated to Utah was because they were one of the few religions to back Abolishment of slavery and very Pro-civil rights, but you wouldn't know that because your reading all this derogatory crap against mormon's. I am not going to explain why they didn't have certain keys in the church because it would take forever to explain
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
Don't make assumption!. could the reason be cuz of Brigham Young statement (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110) that they didn't have certian key in the church.
PrinceSolomon82 1 year ago
if LDS were anti-slavery and Pro-civil Rights were victims cuz of it, then do you agree that Brigham Young was in error with his statement (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
PrinceSolomon82 1 year ago
Sure, I think it was worded incorrectly, but I am sure journalist have also changed the meaning and words. Also, in my own opinion, I think Brigham Young was a little too "fire and Brimstone" too, but he is human, he probably said some extreme things....It's not the people you believe in, it's the religion you believe in. Humans aren't perfect.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
as Historian can you provide reliable sources of the actual quotes from B.Y proving his statement been distorted by journalist. you said "Humans aint perfect " i think agreed he was in error.
PrinceSolomon82 1 year ago
Of course he made errors dude, he is a Prophet (in our opinion), not Christ or God. He is human and makes mistakes and uses words that are otherwise offensive or says things where it's like, "Wait back up". Look at the Bible story David and Goliath, David was really righteous, but ended up fornicating with a women that he simply saw naked on a roof. Look..... my being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Lastter Day Saints helps me live a better life, eat healthy, -continued next comment
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
some of your points in your responses were unneccessary and irrelevant to my question was Brigham Young in error? u got defensive and like you're in a cult. This will my last post.
PrinceSolomon82 1 year ago
We are asked to work hard, study hard, give to the poor, sick, and hungry, love your neighbor, abide by the Ten commandments, try to be like Jesus. What is so wrong with that???? Yes there are people in our history that made mistakes, Mt Meadows Massacre etc... but crap happens. Meadows Massacre was basically a final straw with a couple Mormon families that were sick of friends and family being murdered so they killed others back and later were excommunicated. continued
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
We all make mistakes, every religion has had problems, just live a better life, and stop bashing other religions. Really where will it get you saying, "Well, you believe in weird shit!" That is what causes tension and wars, live together, vote for what you think is fair and right, do as you please, but don't insult others about their beliefs, I just commented because I am sick of people ripping on me when I just try to better myself and also help others. Anyway.... cheers
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear Did we have a restoration or not? You can't on one hand say Brigham Young was only a human and on the other he was a prophet. If we Mormons do not hold our leaders accountable in their positions & callings, then we are merely a cult - If you study cults, you'll find that they do not hold their leaders accountable.
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
@justamusta You got a lot to learn, why don't you go move to Utah and take an institute class at BYU in Utah, you don't know what your talking about. When someone is a prophet it DOESN'T make them a god, they are still human...you don't even understand the curse of Cain you need to go speak to Professer at a BYU institute. You blowing smoke out your butt and have no idea what your talking about.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear I never said that a Prophet is a God. But what I am saying is, if a Prophet misleads or gives false teachings, then he or the Church should repudiate those errors and false teachings and apologize for them. Let's be accountable just like any legitimate organization in society. For example: we STILL officially believe that black people are representatives of the Devil. The Church has never repudiated Prez Taylor's teachings on that one.
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear What you' seem to be saying is the Church believes that 1) In some cases racism is justified (blacks denied keys) & that 2) God endorses his Church's racism (but it's complicated to explain here)
I don't agree with those statements but I would have more respect for my Church if Monson came out & renewed the Church's endorsement of those statements
In fact, you could send a letter to Monson encouraging him to say what you're saying
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
@justamusta LOL Once again, you're full of it. It wasn't RACISM! Go read the Book of Mormon or something you have no idea what your talking about. It had nothing to do with color, nor race, stop spewing lies.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear if Mormon racism has nothing to do with color or race, then please tell me what Mormon racism has to do with.
And if you're saying that what the secular world defines as racism is not occuring and has never occured in the Mormon faith, then please explain what LDS treatment of black people is, t it is, if it is not racism.
Monson's Shame: Curse of Cain
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
@justamusta It's called keys given to certain people of the kingdom, once again, I know your not LDS, because your an idiot and you know nothing. Obviously, you don't know that Gentiles (or white's as YOU would call them) weren't allowed the keys back in the day, only the Jew's. Then Jew's weren't allowed the keys either, your just an idiot, this is my last comment... why don't you read the Bible, BoM, and everything else before you spread lies liberal faggot.
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear You've expressed such nastiness & it's common from people like you who claim to be members of the Mormon Church. If you are Mormon, you're hurting the Mormon Church by resorting to bitter name-calling.
If all you can do is call me names like "faggot" in defense of "God's restored Church" it's further evidence that the Church isn't true
Otherwise, your explanation on how the racism in the Mormon Church isn't racism appears like racism
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
@justamusta LOL actually faggot means a gathering of sticks or stupidity... LOL how is that racist, man you are DUUUMMMMMMB! Anyway, last comment for sure this time, bye... poser who poses to be "OH I am a Pro Truth Latter-Day Saint" I am going to come up with a fallacious name and statement that I am LDS to try and boost my Pathos and act like I have a legitimate agrument. LOL! Go to school man, bye
Splintermetalgear 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear You've done an utterly miserable job of defending the Mormon Church. You say Mormon racism isn't racism but then fail to explain how it isn't racism and instead resort to more name-calling.
If the Church really is true these things would be simple to explain and the mark of the divine would be obvious. To gain legitimacy and leave our cult-ways behind, we must admit our racism, repudiate it and apologize
Mormon Shame: Curse of Cain
I'm Justa: pro-truth Latter-day Saint.
justamusta 1 year ago
@Splintermetalgear You've done a miserable job of defending the Mormon Church. You say Mormon racism isn't racism but then fail to explain how it isn't racism and instead resort to more name-calling.
If the Church really is true these things would be simple to explain and the mark of the divine would be obvious. To gain legitimacy and leave our cult-ways behind, we must admit our racism, repudiate it and apologize
Mormon Shame: Curse of Cain
I'm Justa: pro-truth Latter-day Saint.
justamusta 1 year ago
@justamusta
wait you are LDS?
so am I
and I am pro truth LDS.....our prophets were racist....plus Noah was a in the line of seth...which means all of cains descendants died in the flood.
I am pro truth just like Joseph smith had many wives cuz he was tired of EMMA and he wanted to sex with multiple women....
people arent perfect.....the church is still true.
jonyrock777 1 year ago
@jonyrock777 If our leaders aren't perfect, then let's admit our racism is racism, repudiate it & apologize. If we admit our Prophets & other Mormon leaders mis-led the Church on race, we will begin to shed our cult status 'cause we will be seeking to be accountable for our actions. Leadership is accountable, tyrants & cults excepted
The Baptists apologized for their racism but we have not apologized for ours. They're sorry & we aren't. Shame on us!
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 1 year ago
@justamusta I was saying that while this guy seeks to hold the church to a standard of racism and bigotry, he fails to call to question the Democratic party's (which he supports) history of racism against Blacks. Do you get it now? Your explaining of baseball and chewable tablets was a bad analogy.. witty, but doens't fit what I'm saying..lol..but its all good.
BLKMRM 2 years ago 2
@BLKMRM
All they have are straw man arguments. You and I both know that there was not segregation in our church... Joseph Smith opposed slavery to the severest degree and as candidate for president, that was one of his platforms. If Joseph was allowed to REACH the oval office, it undoubtedly would have been him and not Lincoln who would have manifested equality for all.
THELDSLIFE 2 years ago
What is being said in this video is true and you raised some very real questions. I was raised Mormon but left and this was one of the many reasons why. I'm glad that you had the courage to speak out about this. I gave this video 5 stars and am disappointed to see that it only averages 3.5, as everything you said are questions that you've rightly raised.
I'm also proud that Obama won the election, as I believe the American people chose the right guy and that he is doing a superb job.
allenm541 2 years ago
Book of Mormon 2009 Edition
Jacob 3:8 - Oh my brothers, I fear that unless you shall rep;ent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours..."
Mormon 5:15 - this people shall be scattered and shall become a dark, a filthy, a loathsome people..."
Moses 7:8 - "the Lord shall curse the land with much heat... and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan"
Moese 7:22 - "The seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them"
2009 edition
osirica 2 years ago
These examples of "blackness" are not a metaphor, but actual skin color, according to ALLLLLL of the Prohpets, Presidents, and Apostles of Mormonism that spoke definitively on this issue.
osirica 2 years ago
@ defendingmormonism
since you like quotes so much.
lyrical77 2 years ago
THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, ...but this inequality is not of man's origin. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence]." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.
lyrical77 2 years ago
bullshit says who the white man? its time us brothers and sisters wake up from these white man lies
386bigDee 2 years ago
@lyrical77
Luckily, the opinion of one man has no bearing on the core doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I could take tens of thousands of Christian opinions from decades and centuries before out of context, and similarly demonize ALL Christians for their racism.
Is that fair? No. Absolutely not.
Demonizing all Mormons because of the opinions of some will impede your ability to understand things clearly and correctly.
If all Mormons are racist, then all other Christians are too.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
To anyone who has really studied this matter, it is well known that Mormon Doctrine is not the official doctrine of the Mormons nor has it ever been, and McConkie was not an Apostle at the time he wrote the book. When he wrote the book he had no authority do say what is and what is not LDS doctrine. A good portion of what McConkie wrote was his opinion and he states such in the book you cite. Where his opinion stops and starts, is not my strong suit
neechee5150 2 years ago
it would be safe to say he held those same views while in authority. yes or no?
lyrical77 2 years ago
I do know that Bruce R McConkie was corrected by the then LDS president and that he had to make some corrections. Other than that, I would not be a reliable authority on the book other than it was not nor has it ever been published by the church and it was never accepted or cannonized if you will by the ruling body.
neechee5150 2 years ago
@neechee5150 This is a dishonest argument. If Mormon Doctrine was misleading, then why didn't Any Church authority stop its printing or ask Latter-day Saints not to read it?
Please, be truthful here, you're embarrassing yourself.
I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint
justamusta 2 years ago
Just know that you've been given all the info that you need to search it yourself. The book of Abraham being false should be the biggest clue that Jo Smitty was a liar and a cheat..However even if you don't take that, the info I gave about the priesthoods and so on should also be enough to show you that Jo Smitty was incorrect and mislead people. To believe a lie after proof has been given is truly the epitome of spiritual deception. I'm finished.
KakkoiGuy1 2 years ago
well you know whites have always used religion to justify their lies throughout history and any black that follows this religion is an fucking idiot.
386bigDee 2 years ago
I won't call them idiots but I will say that Blacks that follow LDS goobly gob after knowing that they mistreated blacks and thought (still think this way just not as vocal about it) of them that way for so long, must have problems with themselves. I don't see how any Black person can excuse this kind of treatment. I say this. They say that Blacks can hold the "Priesthood" however, you don't see any Black "apostles" and will never see a Black "prophet". I live in SLC and know that much.
KakkoiGuy1 2 years ago
The Celestial Room of the Tabernacle? Sorry lad but the Tabernacle is not the same thing the Temple. If you can't even get minor information right was makes you a credible source?
goodmorninguk1 2 years ago
2 Nephi 26: 33 - For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and HE INVITETH THEM ALL to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and HE DENIETH NONE that come unto him, BLACK AND WHITE, bond and free, MALE AND FEMALE; and he remembereth the heathen; and ALL ARE ALIKE UNTO GOD, BOTH JEW AND GENTILE.
Racism exists within many churches. NOT THIS ONE.
goodmorninguk1 2 years ago
MOST Mormons are not racist.
I have been Mormon for 30 years, since I was 21. Most Mormons I know are not racist.
Nothing taught to me by my church leaders ever said I should be racist, against ANY race, including blacks of African descent.
I know too many Mormons, and non-Mormons, of races other than white/European descent, to ever be racist. That's not how my parents brought me up.
If the LDS church itself was racist, I would never join.
lindalds 2 years ago
I'm sorry lindalds but you need to read more of the actual history of your church. Brigham Young was an incredibly racist man. Read any volume of the Journal of Discourses and you will come eventually come across something horribly racist, sexist, etc. (And please no one use the very tired excuse that the JoD is not doctrine. It was accepted as doctrine for a VERY long time and only when people started actually reading it and realizing how awful it was did the church start to distance itself
Kreature8888 2 years ago
Yes, I've read those references in the J of D's. What you don't realize is that, by 19th century standards, those comments are NOT racist. Especially when you read them in the context of the rest of the speech.
And, no, the J of D's were NOT doctrine. SOME of what the leaders said was doctrine, but the books themselves were actually pamphlets sent to the Saints in Great Britain. The men who did the transcription of the talks sold them. We have living prophet now, not Brigham Young.
lindalds 2 years ago
Also, did you know that it was part of church policy instituted by Brigham Young that if any white person were discovered having sexual relationships with a black person they were to both be killed on the spot. Blood Atonement. Google it.
Kreature8888 2 years ago
No, not both of them. Blacks had NO power back then. White men could use black women in anyw ay they wanted and the woman, or even her brother or father or husband, could do nothing about it, or he could be killed by the whites.
He told the white man who held the priesthood of God that if he had sex with a black woman, HE (not her) was WORTHY of death on the spot. Not that he WOULD be killed. .
I think you would agree wtih that.
BTW, just FYI, inter-racial marriage was illegal back then.
lindalds 2 years ago
If you do not believe that our church is the true church of Jesus Christ, then why do you even CARE if we do or do not give our priesthood to anyone?
But, if you DO believe that our church is the Church of Christ, then you must accept whatever God says, correct? Even if you don't like it?
In the Bible, there was only a SELECT group of MEN (not women) who were able to hold the priesthood and enter the temple to do sacrifices.
Even JESUS was not of this select group of men.
lindalds 2 years ago
Final questions.
If the LDS church is truly the church of Christ, then our prophets are prophets of God. If they claim that, for whatever reason (officially, we are never told why blacks of African descent could not hold the priesthood) that a certain group of people cannot have the priesthood, because God said, then you can't fight against God, right?
But, if we are NOT God's church, and our priesthood is man made, then we didn't do blacks any favors by giving them the priesthood, correct?
lindalds 2 years ago
Dear lindalds... Ever considered that LDS prophets (especially the 2 original ones, JS&BY) are false prophets, which the Bible warns us about plenty of times? Those "prophets" made the people believe a lie. The lie was that God wanted men to marry many women, when Jesus restated the intent of marriage, was as it always had been since the days of Adam&Eve, the bonding of ONE man to ONE woman (Matt. 19:4-6) To believe your prophets, one has to believe God lies and is changeable! (see D&C132)
going4truth 2 years ago
I considered it for a second or two.
And, you know, if Jesus warns us about FALSE [prophets, then there must be TRUE prophets. Otherwise, He would warn about anyone saying they were a prophet.
God never said marry MANY women. He did say that some men could have more than one. But, most men who had more than one had no more than two or three.
And what abouat all those prophets in the old testament who had more than one wife?
lindalds 2 years ago
You're right! GOD never said marry many women! He didn't even say to marry 2or3. It was done in OT times because the people had degenerated, worshiping idols even. Altho Abraham wasnt perfect in the marriage dept, at least he was sincere in trying to follow the one true God. If youre familiar w/the story you know that it was Sarai who convinced her husband that he should marry Hagar, NOT God, like JS said in D&C 132:65. BTW both JS&BY had over 30 wives (way over the 2or3 you say is okay)!
going4truth 2 years ago
First, Abraham was not the only prophet in the OT with more than one wife.
Second, I didn't say 2 or 3 was ok, I said, most men only had 2 or 3, of the few who had more than one. I know that a couple three of them had many wives. Most of JS's and a good many of BY's were in name only. Seems that women had more rights married than unmarried, even if they were widows.
lindalds 2 years ago
Have you ever read the books by Mary Frances Sturlaugson Eyre? She was raised in Tennessee, one of 16 kids, who's brothers told her that if she joined teh LDS church, they WOULD kill her. They DID cut her out of the family. She hated whites growing up. She hated Mormons. But, she finally read the Book of Mormon, and joined the LDS church in 1976, before the revelation. Ask HER why blacks join the LDS church. Go to blackLDSdotORG and see why any blacks would join the LDS church.
lindalds 2 years ago
Some past leaders made remarks who WERE probably racist, or at least, prejudiced against blacks. But they were not speaking for the church. Even Bruce R. McConkie stated, after the 1978 revelation, that whatever ANY LDS leader said before, it was wrong and to be ingored.
It's a sad fact that many life Mormons are still racist, especially those in Utah. It's not something I am proud of, and one reason why I refuse to live in Utah. I am a convert, raised to see all races as equal to God.
lindalds 2 years ago
What a lot of ignorant Mormons believe is not necessarily what the LDS church teaches and believes. All these things you say that some Mormon kids told you, you will NEVER hear any LDS general authority EVER saying. Even those little sound bites supposedly said by Brigham Young, he was NOT racist, not by the standards of his day. Many LDS prophets said that they wished that they had been the ones to make the claim to the world that God would now give the priesthood to all worhy male members.
lindalds 2 years ago
"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood... This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending Him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possible being born in darkest Africa- if that
negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel.
Continued.....
Kreature8888 2 years ago
to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."
conintued....
Kreature8888 2 years ago
"Race Problems-As the Affect the Church" Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the college level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah August 27, 1954
Yup. Mormon leaders of the past have been extremely racist. If I posted half of Brigham Young's comments on the "vileness" of the African race it would curl your hair. I don't think most are racist today but to try to say that they never were is false.
Kreature8888 2 years ago
Kreature8888-
What Christian denomination are you a member of?
I will find all the racist statements made by people in your Church throughout history.
And then, like other "Christians", I will spread the untruth that you are racist, along with every other member of your Church.
Did you know that Christians used the Bible to justify slavery?
Sad, isn't it. However, to perpetuate the myth that Mormons are racist is not true.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
Comment removed
Kreature8888 2 years ago
I am not a christian. I am an atheist and damn proud of it. I was raised in the mormon church and know a hell of a lot more about it than most mormons do. Have you read Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View: Mormon Origins"? An Excellent book written by a believer. If you have and can still believe after reading that then your brain has seriously been fucked up.
Kreature8888 2 years ago
I heard about this in the late 90s. I asked a couple Mormons about it and they denied it.
Steadno 2 years ago
Steadno-
Depending on how long they have been members, they might not have known the details which is understandable.
It's already been over 30 years since the revelation on the priesthood.
Mormons have nothing to hide because of our confidence and conviction in our faith. I have talked about this topic with hundreds of people.
Most people are not willing to put in the time and energy to truly understand it.
The Mormons are "racist" myth stems from ignorance and misunderstanding.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
Were the scriptures removed from the Mormon bibles?
Steadno 2 years ago
I don't quite understand your question. Can you clarify?
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
Were the racist scriptures that your church now rejects erased from your bibles/books?
Steadno 2 years ago
I am a member of the church. I would say the answer to that is yes. It is hard to find official documents/scriptures that outline this past policy. There were African-Americans ordained to the preisthood before the ban.
JohnRhysMusician 2 years ago
There have never been any racist scriptures in the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
If you are referring to the curse of the Lamanites - then you have been mislead. They were not "cursed" with black skin - it never says that. They had a curse put upon them, and then there was a "mark" which was darker skin. The color of their skin was not the curse.
Besides, the Lamanites eventually became more righteous than the Nephites. Color of skin had nothing to do with salvation.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
Dancing I see.
Steadno 2 years ago
It's not something that can be understood right off the bat.
So, I guess, if you want to truly understand the myth of so-called Mormon "racism" you can't "dance" around the issue yourself, but need to delve more into the topic.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
Defend until the end I see. I understand.
Steadno 2 years ago
In the Bible, we read about how Christ would not let his disciples preach the gospel to the Gentiles.Does this mean that Jesus was a racist Jew?
There are other examples of things that would be considered racism in the Bible.
We must look deeper to understand the context, the socio-cultural conditions of the day.
I have met Mormons from all over the world, inc. many in Africa, and I know for a fact that Mormon people and doctrines are not racist.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
Sure the Christian bible is racist too.
Steadno 2 years ago
The Levites were the only ones who were allowed to officiate in the temple. Jesus wasn't a Levite, so He was not allowed in parts of the temple.
lindalds 2 years ago
and?
Steadno 2 years ago
It's GOD'S priesthood and GOD decides who does and does not get it. He has His own reasons, which He does not have to share with us.
However, if one do not believe that this is GOD'S priesthood, then why would one fight so hard to get something for others that they don't want for themselves? If we are pretending that we speak for God, and usurping a priesthood we have no authority to confer, then wouldn't it be a favor to blacks that they do not receive a blasphemous priesthood?
lindalds 2 years ago
lindalds: I dont want your priesthood I escaped the brainwashing of Christianity five years ago. I dont believe in god especially your god. Mormonism is a Protestant cult anyway and Christians don't see Mormons as Christians. Religion is destruction to human evolution.
Steadno 2 years ago
Like I said, I don't know why non-Mormon blacks were so bent out of shape over something that they didn't want. Those blacks who DID want it also understood that it was GOD'S priesthood and when God said so, they would have it.
Why do you think blacks joined (or wanted very badly to join) our church, even knowing that they could not hold the priesthood?
lindalds 2 years ago
Some black who joined could have been brought up Mormon either by adopted families, orphanages, neighborhoods etc. they could have been in a poor country and Mormons needed people so they helped them in hopes of converting them.
Steadno 2 years ago
Some, yes, but there were converts, also. Look up Mary Frances Sturlaugson Eyre.
And the thousands of Africans in Ghana and Kenya who wanted to join but had to wait.
Before 1978, however, I heard that missionaries were sometimes telling blacks that the black persons should not be talking to the missionaries because of the ban. That would come up immediately. Like, "Blacks can't hold the priesthood, are you sure you still want to talk to us?"
lindalds 2 years ago
Pretty sneaky proselytizing I would say. This means they knew they were wrong.
Steadno 2 years ago
There's a difference between knowing you're wrong, and realizing you've been wrong.
And another thing altogether to ADMIT you were wrong.
lindalds 2 years ago
If a prophet is wrong just one time, they were never a prophet. A true god would never change.
Steadno 2 years ago
If he says that God says something that he knows darn good and well that God didn't say, then he's not a good prophet.
He IS allowed to have his own opinions on things, and it doesn't make a difference to him as a prophet if his opinions are right or wrong. God does not tell a prophet everything He knows, only what God wants him to know.
God never changes, but He can change how we worship Him.
lindalds 2 years ago
A prophet is never wrong, because the info comes from his god. A real god never changes, no exception.
Steadno 2 years ago
Then you don't have the first idea of what a prophet really is. God tells His prophets what He wants said prophets to know and nothing more. Prophets are allowed to have their own opinions on things. They do not have to rely on God for every little thing.
So, God telling Moses that everyone must follow the Law of Moses to the very letter, or the consequences stated there are to be carried out, no questions asked? Moses was a prophet, and God never changes, that's what you said.
lindalds 2 years ago
A prophet is said to never make mistakes because they receive info from their god. Either the prophet is wrong or their god is. Make a choice.
Steadno 2 years ago
Who said a prophet never makes mistakes?
God is perfect, man is not. NO man is perfect. God does not force any man to be what he cannot be.
If all prophets and apostles (and those who wrote the Bible are either prophets or apostles) never made mistakes, then every account of historical spiritual significance would be totally in sync. But, the four gospels do not always jibe, and one will tell of something that the others didn't or coundl't have happened as written.
lindalds 2 years ago
You must understand that I was Christianized for 20 years and it is common orthodoxy that if a *prophet* makes just one error when revealing what is supposed to come directly from GOD then they are done forever. There is no compromise in this teaching because a true *prophet* is a conduit for GOD.
Steadno 2 years ago
What's common in "orthodoxy" (which doesn't have prophets anyway, in my experience) is not always common to us.
If said prophet says that God says soemthing that HE KNOWS God never said, THAT is wrong, according to Deuteronomy.
But, it is our understanding that, if a prophet is leading the church astray, God will take him.
lindalds 2 years ago
God will never allow a prophet to lead His peopel astray. But, that does not mean perfection in all things.
lindalds 2 years ago
Research ancient Egypt ie Kemet. First trinity: Heru, Asar, Aset. First single almighty GOD Amen-Ra, which is why you say *Amen* after praying. Hebrews got the idea there. Then Came Catholicism, then Protestantism with its countless denominations. THEN came Protestant cults such as LDS and JWs.
Steadno 2 years ago
Yup. The bible is full of just as much bullshit as the book of mormon. Trying to prove one fallacy by presenting another isn't a very good argument.
Kreature8888 2 years ago
Kreature8888-
Nice try.
Obviously it depends on the audience.
If I am speaking with an atheist, then obviously I will not rely on the Bible for any convincing power.
With Atheists, it's easy. I simply tell them to prove to me that God does not exist.
You can't and never will be able to. So all of your "logic" and "intellectualism" cannot even be utilized to prove your whole foundation in life - that there is no God.
Atheists will be quite shocked in the next life.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
And btw, your comment:
"I was raised in the mormon church and know a hell of a lot more about it than most mormons do."
It all depends on your definition of knowledge.
If you know a lot of lies, half-truths, distortions, sweeping generalizations, mischaracterizations - then you really don't know much.
I should also note, that I have read all the anti-Mormon literature under the sun. It is hallow and full of darkness and deceit.
I am sorry that you consider it knowledge.
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
There were never any racist scriptures in our church.
There was nothing that said blacks were bad or evil or anything like that. In fact, nothing about blacks of African descent at all.
No one knows why blacks of African descent, or black Africans, were denied the priesthood for so long. I'm not going to speculate. But, we do believe that, in 1978, God laid it on the hearts of all our leaders that this ended. And that was put IN to our scriptures.
lindalds 2 years ago
I have read the scriptures that spoke about blacks being cursed for not fighting valiantly in the magical Mormon war before earth etc. its a carry over from the Talmud. Dont try and lie to me.
Steadno 2 years ago
Where is this in the scriptures? Because I have not found it anywhere. Please, I want chapter and verse.
lindalds 2 years ago
lindalds: I found these in 15 seconds on Google: 2 Nephi 5:21, Alma 3: 6, Nephi 2:14-15, Moses 7:22, Abraham 1:21-24,27.
Steadno 2 years ago
None of those verses, the ones from the Book of Mormon, say anything about blacks of African descent.
Moses and Abraham seem to. But, only in relations to the priesthood, and only back in those days. In fact, in Abraham, it says that Pharoah was blessed with all blessings except the priesthood, which is what the LDS church had always maintained, that blacks would be blessed with all blessings, except the priesthood.
2 B cont.
lindalds 2 years ago
lindalds: Dont try it. These scriptures and others were assuredly used to be racist against blacks. You are looking really bad right about now.
Steadno 2 years ago
Not the ones in the Book of Mormon, cause it's taking place in the Western Hemisphere, where there WERE no blacks of African descent.
And the ones in the P of GP were not advocating racism of any kind. I don't see it. Because I don't read them and immediately think "Wow! I need to be racists against blacks!" Even black Mormons read them and I don't see them saying "Those verses say you are racist against me.
lindalds 2 years ago
Before the Civil Rights movement, there were many Christian churches that refused to allow blacks to worship integrated with whites. The Southern Baptist church was started to keep blacks out. Very few allowed blacks and whites to worship sholder to shoulder. Those that did integrate would have blacks sitting in the back and whites up front.
Not the LDS church. Blacks were always members, and worshipped right next to everyone else.
lindalds 2 years ago
lindalds: Sure Christians were racist in their own ways too. I mean they owned slaves. This doesnt mean that Mormons werent racist. Now they might have been more tolerant because of the prodigious they experienced. Unfortunately though, this didnt translate into 100% equality. This is a historical fact. Be honest now.
Steadno 2 years ago
Ok. Here it is.
Racism, as far as I can see, is relative.
What might seem racist to us today, was not racist then; in fact, I think that JOseph Smith and Brigham Young were quite forward thinking in their day as far as blacks were concerned. When Joseph ran for POTUS, he did it on an abolishtionist platform. Rumor has it he wanted to buy up ALL the slaves in the south and free them. When the Mormons headed west, many slaves came with them, to freedom.
lindalds 2 years ago
You are making excuses for racism. The priesthood ban was lifted about 30 years ago. I was alive during the ban. We arent talking 150 years ago. You should be ashamed for defending such vile doctrine!
Steadno 2 years ago