Why can't this guy just stop speaking out of the side of his mouth. He doesn't care about free markets. He doesn't know a damn thing about free markets. What really drives this guy is greed and hatred for anyone who doesn't serve him. Republicans aren't the party of NO, they're the party of HATE. No wonder they have to cling to the religious right because they're so far from Christian as anyone could be.
Food is more fundamental that Healthcare. So when Jefferson says "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", we get our burgers for free? Arent homes necessary? Thom, you went to looney place.
Yes, ours is a whole lot more corrupt. The main problem we have is the lack of good information. Our MSM is nothing more than a propaganda machine for big pharma and the MIC. They have been giving people lies for so long, and pretending that it's "The American Way," that people think any other system is "unAmerican."
Your system may need some work, but it's much better than ours. You guys discuss in the media. Our media says, "Obey, or you're not American."
I assume your "we" is not the USA. The stats state a fact: The US pays more. and more per person, than any system on Earth. Therefore, you pay less.
In the US there are 50 million who do not have health care. They get health care from ERs only. 45,000 people in the US die each year from lack of health insurance alone. How many die each year in your country??
Thom`s logic is "we" made markets because Govt has laws in place. So, then it is obvious to Thom that gives Govy the right to control everything. So, for free exchange to happen, there must not be any laws?
United Health`s Bill McGuire got $124 million one year, about 1/6 of 1% of revenues. Or, about 66 cents on a $400 policy. Averaged about $58 million over 6 years, or about half that.. Thom says 30%, off the top? Gangster in a suit? I suggest looking at UNH (symbol) graph of stock prices to 2005 area, and you can see why Bill made money, stockholders made money. Bill`s job is make stockholders happy, not pleasing Thom. Thom calls people Tea Baggers, a vile reference, reflecting on himself.
I will grant that some folks could have used that term, folks unaware of the crude sexual reference. You, think they KNEW the meaning? However, that kind of use is not crude intentionally. Thom is using it because being crude and vile is his intent.
Oh, the same people who hold up signs depicting Obama as Hitler, and screaming at people at political town hall meetings? He's being vile to THOSE PEOPLE!?
Are Capitalist, Socialist vile labels? Please share a vile comment of Hannity, name a friend of his who used a vile sexual reference such as Thom Hartman and "tea baggers".
money for a war in the WRONG FREEEKING COUNTRY is just fine out of your wallet? meanwhile, the waitress who has no sick days or insurance is prepping your salad with swine flu?! brilliant!! stay classy!
Actually, you are off subject, but, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Madeline Albright ( Cinton`s secy of state), John Kerry and others all believed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. They all spoke about it before Bush was elected. They all forgot afterward. Kerry even appealed in Congress for military action against Saddam for giving U.N. inspectors a hard time. All before 9/11.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
So Hartmann says that the "life" in "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" means healhcare is a right? So does the liberty part mean that you are at liberty to take money from your neighbors wallet?
@TheKuffarKid It means having a standard of living that allows you to focus on your dreams instead of worrying about going hungry or losing your house. It means never having to consider stealing because you never have to fear being exploited for a necessity of life.
I think you OUGHT to worry about yourself, because I have my own problems. But, I am not asking you to give me a bunch of stuff so I can go and meditate somewhere.
I have a RIGHT to keep and bear arms does that mean the gov. has to buy me a weapon? You CAN'T have a right that requires someone elses participitation. Health care requires someone elses participation through actual physical labor or by taking someone else's money.
Well sir, good point. The government allows you to buy a weapon at your own free will, without insurers telling you what kind of weapon or whether or not you can or can not. Also, moralistically, and economically, it seems to be the right decision to go with government healthcare.
And by you buying a gun, are you saying that it didnt take someone else's labor? Someone had to make the gun, someone had to make the bullets. Unless you make your own guns and ammo, which would be very unique.
In an odd way yes, because people who make more money, are also using more of Earth's (everybody's) collective resources to do so. Therefore, they ought to give more back to society as a whole. Consider it a cost of doing business, keeping your customers alive and well to buy your products.
Oh, so go to the emergency room where they have to accept you as a patient, whether or not you have insurance or not. If you dont have insurance, who pays for that emergency room visit? Why are people who dont have insurance in the emergency room? Maybe because whatever illness or injury they have has not been treated properly, and now they cant take it anymore. If they had insurance, maybe we wouldnt have to front such an enormous bill.
What most Americans are oblivious to is the fact that other countries have long ago solved this issue. And they've solved it while spending much less than Americans spend per capita.
The current US system is one of the most expensive, least egalitarian and least regulated in the world. The US was 37th best in the world in 2000, before we had 50 million uninsured. But most Americans love this program and refuse any cheaper and better system.
Lovers of big government, usually refer to Canada as one of these wonderful places, yet Canadians come here when they are suffering, even though its free at home. Sorry, I thought my response obvious.
I'm afraid your ignorance of the subject betrays you. The US was 37th, not second, in 2000. You need to see the other 35 as well.
Also, Americans, whose government does not provide much support, spends more than anyone else.
Now you might like paying more than the rest of the world for a system that is far worse than much of the rest of the world, but I feel it's wrong. You like to waste your money, not me.
Govt in the U.S provides about 45% of healthcare NOW. (Fed plus local). This is not a free market already. As for the rest of the world being cheaper, true. My home is worth $200,000 here, if I moved it to Chiapas, Mexico, it would be $30,000. Prices respond to the ability to pay. Years ago, in the times of "Leave it to Beaver", only Daddy worked. Now, Mommy is liberated and works too, so home prices represent 2 incomes, not 1. You wont see the average Somali paying $4 for a burger either.
Your ignorance gives you away. Your house would cost more in Europe, yet they pay next to nothing for their health care. The US has the most expensive health care in the world, not the most expensive houses.
You need to stop arguing your points. The US health care system is broken. Even you say that. But you want a system where the poor die at an early age and the rich live like kings. That's wrong.
The US system is broken and you don't know why, admit it.
Average US home start is 2169 sq ft, Great Britain 684 sq ft. Denmark, largest in Europe is 1233 sq ft. Homes, yards are tiny in Europe, for the average guy.Want to talk about yard size? How about vehicles? Where i live, illegal aliens own 2600 sq ft homes, and drive Chevy Tahoes. Cup of cke size? Weight of meat on a typical restaurant plate?
Please, share with me, I would like to know the parts of the health care proposals in the Senate and House that will reduce the cost of health care. We can agree, reducing costs of care is good.
Size of average homes is sooo important to health care. You win. The US system is better because our average house size is larger.
doherty,
That's exactly what I mean about the propaganda here. Americans can no longer focus on the problem. It's all about "US is the best .... even if it's not true."
There are plenty of systems around the world that are better than ours, but Americans will NEVER look at them because ... "They aren't American made."
toeg1, You are the one who brought up other countries into the healthcare discussion here. My point is that costs in foreign countries are affected by many factors between the countries. Do you disagree with that? If your point is that we pay more than any other country, I agree. Because?
toeg1, I still would like to know how the healthcare proposals in the House and Senate are going to lower the cost of healthcare in the U.S. I too, want lower healthcare costs. Since I am ignorant, please enlighten me.
I don't think the health care systems being passed will be cheaper. We have a "for profit" health care. Congress is paid by those same companies to make sure they make more money, not less. They are paid hundreds of millions of dollars. Congress works for them, not us.
For these very reasons, we pay more than the rest of the world. It's "for profit" not "for the people." Laws are passed so their bosses make more money, not so the people are better served.
toeg1, since Obama and Congress have been basically calling the healh insurance executives scumbags and such, why is it that their stock prices are rising as the Congress races to "protect" us? The largest, United health, (UNH) is especially tasty over the last few months. I thought rising stock prices meant expectation of rising profits? Doesnt appear they expect to start making less money to me.
You're not understanding. Obama and Congress WORK for these "scumbags." I care less what verbiage they use. I know who pays their bills.
Big Pharma will make A LOT more money. Their workers (Congress + Pres) have ensured that they make more money.
Congress DOES NOT work for the people. Stop believing that crap. Congress is paid by big pharma. They pass laws for big pharma. The DO NOT pass laws for the people.
toeg1 Yes, I get you. Just what percent of revenue is profit for a healthcare insurance plan? Big Pharma? Kaiser Permanente Health Insurance IS non-profit, not cheap.
You should know that that's an open question. Each company has its own %. I could care less how much profit they make on the sick and infirm, the fact that they do it is morally irreprehensible.
We need a gov. that concerns itself with the needs of the people, not the needs of the corporations. Republicrats worry ONLY about their bosses, which ain't you and me.
Worrying about detail on how much we're being screwed doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor. Let's stop it.
toeg1...First, you state "for profit" is what makes our system worse. Then you say, "STOP, lets not examine profit"? United Health(UNG), largest health insurer in U.S. made 3.7% in 2008. Eliminate ALL profit lowers a $400 policy by $14.80!!. I do NOT believe you, me, Thom Hartman, Obama, or anyone thinks that is even significant. Or, is $385.20 the big deal you were waiting for?
Now I see your dilemma. You apparently hold the notion that "for profit" is a good thing as long as it's not "too much," whatever that nebulous definition is.
You forget the most basic premise of all.
Government needs to work for the people, not for companies. They need to do what's best for citizens, not corporations. If you think that having a government that ONLY works for corporations is good, then you're sorely mistaken
Government needs to work for the people. In all the countries that have better health care for much less cost, their government did what was in the best interest of the people, not business.
Their gov worked for the people. Now, the people have national health care for up to half our cost per capita and their system covers everyone. If you are really in love with a system that doesn't care about you, you're in the right country. Gov here ensures corporate profits above all else, including you
please take time to watch George Carlin's sketch on who really owns America. If you think you have a government that works for you, then you're blind to reality.
Who Really Owns America, George Carlin. After all, who gives Congress hundreds of millions of dollars every year so that their personal legislation always passes?? Who supplies both major parties with 90% of their funding??
So, you dislike our Govt, and your solution is a bigger govt? That is exactly what you HAVE been getting for the last 80 years. Federal spending from 3% of GDP to about 18% of GDP. (now closer to 25% due to "recession"). We have a govt 6 to 8 times bigger as a percent of GDP.
toeg1, No! I dont think at all you are an anarchist, you like big Govt. I used 80 years, because I recall in Friedman`s book he mentioned 3% Fed spending at that time, and it is not ancient history. Ah yes, the French. They certainly are the ones, arent they? Wouldnt have survived the last century 3 times if the U.S. hadnt slaughtered the Germans twice, and kept the Reds out of Paris. Dont worry though, Ahmedinejad will nuke them, since Obama is not going to protect them.
I went to the site you provided. It said that 20% of your income was deducted "at source". That the govt paid about 75% of the costs. You can, of course, buy more insurance to cover the unpaid portion. So, if I make $40000, I am so lucky to pay $8000 for insurance that pays 75% of my costs, AND, (the best part!) the govt will decide on which procedures I can have! Wonder if Obama could pass that here? AND this is the best in Europe?
It happens to beat a system that allows 40,000 people to die from preventable diseases every year. Or maybe you prefer that people die unnecessarily.
The US system is the most expensive in the world, ergo France is cheaper (and by a lot). In France, those 40,000 people get to live, not so in the US.
But if all you have against their system is the cost, which is cheaper, and guaranteed procedures which keep you alive, then you have no complaints.
So, if I propose a 20% tax on incomes to fund healthcare reform, and that gets us a 25% co-pay on most services, except big procedures are covered 100%, you would be happy? $40,000 is NOT rich, you would pay $8000 taxes? Then, if you need some services you can pay 25%? I am 59, my wife and I are covered at $3600 annual premium with a $7000 family deductible. Usually we run about $2000 out of pocket, $5600 annual.(blue cross). Worst case (heart attack) $3600 plus $7000 is $10600. France is more.
toeg1, you suggested I look at France`s system at a site YOU suggest, but, as usual you do not respond to the numbers I posted about France at YOUR site! I see just talking points, not a discussion of how it is funded. So, if I just say, "France stinks, America is the best", that is true, but is not a serious comment.
The article I posted states that Soc. Sec. is funded at 20%, which is much more than just health. You need better English comprehension skills. In the US it's 15% at source AND then I STILL pay for health care.
Go to ANY stat site (I use Nationmaster) and you will see a side by side comparison which clearly shows the US to be the most expensive.
US = $4,631/capita
France = $2,349/capita
roughly half of US cost. AND 50 mil ARE insured, not like US.
toeg1, The article YOU sent me to says "the French public health insurance system known as the Securite Sociale (social security). It does Not discuss, mention anything except Health. It also DOES say""financing is supported by employers, employee contributions and personal income taxes. The working population has 20% of their gross salary deducted at source to fund the social security system."" In OUR system 7.65% is deducted from our gross , the employer matches,but not out of our gross.
It's good of you to point out exactly where your comprehension skills falther. Indeed, it does say, "20% .... to find social security." I assume you are intelligent enough to known the difference between "social security" and "health care."
So you agree with my premise. ALL stats agree with my statement that the US spends more than anyone else on planet Earth per capita and still has one of the worst systems among industrialized nations.
toeg1, AGAIN it said "French public health insurance system known as Social Security."
The part about the 20% is it is from the workers GROSS wage, AND there are employer taxes, and income taxes also going in, so total tax is much more than the 20%. It may be health, and pension, YOUR article does not say that.
Here is the entire French social security system: cleiss(dot)fr look for The French Social Security System. Health care is only a part of it, not all of it.
US = $4,631/capita (and 50 mil uninsured)
France = $2,349/capita (and NO ONE uninsured)
US = 45,000 more deaths each year
France = ZERO more deaths each year
You are for more expensive and deadlier system. Why???
Here is the entire French social security system: cleiss( dot) fr look for The French Social Security System. Health care is only a part of it, not all of it.
US = $4,631/capita (and 50 mil uninsured)
France = $2,349/capita (and NO ONE uninsured)
US = 45,000 more deaths each year
France = ZERO more deaths each year
You are for more expensive and deadlier system. Why???
toeg1, Please.....I need no proof health care costs much more here! I never said it didnt! It costs too much here! That is NOT the point! The point is WHY? The point is how do we lower the costs? The point is, if the French have the answer, what part or parts of their system are beneficial to us. What specific actions have they taken that would lower costs here?
1. A national patient data base so changing plans doesn't mean recreating all from scratch.
2. Employer/worker control of prices, accepted procedures, equipment and costs.
3. Employer/worker control of arbitrage.
Those are some obvious immediate benefits. No. 1 would probably save the US over 10% of total costs immediately. No. 2 and 3 would regulate costs fairly among all, but would be hard to set up.
toeg1`, French govt spending is 44% of GDP, US is 27%,, France 63% more than the US. Of course, that money comes from the average worker, who pays 71.3% of his income in taxes. Now, Obama has promised, and been elected Pres, by promising to tax the rich. Please explain how you sell to the American public that you will let him keep $229.60 of an $800 weekly wage? For Health Care he has to pay 30% of all routine services!! Still hoping for an idea from you, besides "France".
The average worker DOES NOT PAY 71.3% of his income in taxes. That is a lie. You really should not lie to people, it's bad.
The US pays more than any other country on Earth for health care. The French system would eliminate 50 mil people without health insurance saving the lives of 45,000 people each year. You apparently want to let these people die.
You prefer letting 45,000 die each year. You lie about French taxes. Your comprehension skills are lacking.
toeg1, Go to Wikipedia and see "Taxation in France". go down to "overview" and read the paragraph. Again, you insult. Read your own site, read Wiki. French govt spending as a percent of GDP is 66% higher than here, certainly that requires a much higher tax burden. There is no Santa Claus. Really.
At least you've retracted your lie. That's good. I agree the French spend, overall, a lot more than Americans in taxes. Even in Europe they are one of the highest.
But their health care benefits are much better than ours AND they pay less than we do. AND they don't have 45,000 people die each year from a lack of health care.
They have smaller homes and fewer Nobel laureats.
So????
I don't think dying an early death is better as a result. Do you???
toeg1, What lie? your website says that the French healthcare system is known as Social security. I looked around and am agreeing with your assertion that French healthcare is a part of Social security. YOUR website does not state that. I assumed YOUR site was accurate. But, you assert that 20% is the figure for pension and health, It is not, it is the tax taken from worker`s income, more is taken from employers, and income taxes too, as per, your website. That`s obvious, they tax so much.
English comprehension classes. They would help you immensely, trust me. 71.3% of paycheck goes to taxes is a lie. I said it was a lie, it's still a lie, and deflecting that lie to another part of the comment doesn't change that.
The French DO pay a lot in taxes. The part that goes to health is half as much as Americans pay. AND, they insure everyone. My links showed what they offer. Stats demonstrate they pay about 1/2. It's obvious to those who wish to see.
toeg1, I already referenced you to Wikipedia about France`s tax rate. Try some more: "Encyclopedia of the Nations", "France Taxation", then go to 2nd paragraph, about half way down, Average worker taxed 73.2% of gross pay. Try Forbes, Tax Misery & Reform Index. Try selling France to America.
I said nothing about if profit is too much or not. As long as capital is free to enter into competition, and govt doesnt regulate a monopoly into existence, profit will never be too high.
Capital is free to enter into competition in health care in all major industrial countries and they still have a better system which serves everyone better and is much cheaper.
But capitalism stops at the steps of their government, while it rules ours. But hey, it's only capitalism for 90% of the US. The banksters were paid back for all their losses. Corporatocracy at work. The rich make the rules and we get whatever little they want to send us.
I see no specific ideas here. Just platitudes. But, if capital is free to move, there must be profit. Capital doesnt move around for nothing. Again, you say nothing, just "I like the French?"
1. I pointed SPECIFICALLY to the article on the site medicalnewstoday. Go and read it. It's longer than 500 spaces. The French system, FROM THAT ARTICLE, is a much better system.
2. You ignorance of world events has nothing to do with health care systems. I don't have time to explain what is really going on in the world.
3. You said you'd counter with a proposal, or was that just a lie?
toeg1, Hey, settle down Sparky! I didnt realize "copy France" was your response. I just read, and posted what i saw in that article. First, since it requires large co-payments for regular medical care, that is a good idea for me. I dont see the American Left selling healthcare by wanting large co-pays. My desire would be large copays (like France) , allow Ins co`s to sell across state lines(cant now), limit lawsuit costs (Dems wont).
You don't even begin to address the major concerns of US health care. Your ideas still leave 50 million with no health care, 40,000 of whom will not live to see another year. You do nothing to keep people from going into bankruptcy over huge medical bills.
I guess "pursuit of happiness" is only for those who have medical insurance and no major problems. Ins can still write "claim denied" and not pay at all.
toeg1, so far, other than an anti American rant from you, the only thing you said was "copy France, look at a website" I looked, I commented on the specific taxes and co-pay that it takes an enormous % of income. You fail to comment, other than "France is better". I gave 3 specific suggestions. Feel free to make 1 specific suggestion, or more! Funny you ranted about profit, have zero desire to talk specific profit margins, then seem OK with profit in France?
You need a remedial class in English really bad. "The French health care system is better." Hopefully, I didn't use too many big words for you.
All of the French system is better.
Your system leaves 50 mil uninsured, doctors free to perform sloppy work without fear of repraisal, private companies to continue raising costs indefinitely and with no checks and balances. Your system kills 40,000 people every year.
Especially the average worker getting to keep 28.7% of his income in France? Please let me know when you can choose ONE idea that lowers the cost of healthcare here, besides "copy France". Is asking you a question rude? I admit insulting the Frogs. But, do I insult you? I read what YOU suggested, ask for an example from you. You just call me ignorant. Now, me and the boys are going cruising for chicks in my new Renault, I got a case of Perrier in the tiny little trunk. Got a Kielbasa in yours?
A little factoid for you. The combined population of the EU, Switzerland, Japan, Canada, and Australia is roughly double what the pop of the US is, however, the US has garnered 40% more nobel prizes in medicine. (57 to 40)The innovations that the US produces get used by these other countries to make their systems look good w/out bearing the cost.
I'll be sure to let the families of those who died needlessly due to American inequality in health care that they are lucky to die in a country that has more nobel winners. Of course, they could still be alive in many other countries, but those countries have less Nobel prize winners.
The point is, the U.S. PAYS for the development of pharmaceuticals, and medical advances to a much greater degree than they do. If they dont get paid mostly by the US, advancement will not occur. They take a free ride.
That's bs and you know it. Medical advances come from all over the world. In the US, we have the "luxury" of having big pharma run our FDA so ANY drug they wish to give to Americans, regardless of its potential risks, are automatically passed. I guess you don't watch the Food Channel very much. There are many videos on the crap we are given by big pharma just because they run the FDA.
You need to learn what is really going on in the US. Blindness to reality doesn't help.
Yea toeg1, and it takes 12 years and between $800 million-$1.5billion to accomplish it PER DRUG! Medical Malpractice awards up 2500% since 1975. Trial lawyers support WHO? Govt regulations on the health industry are about 339.2 billion, benefit value is 170 billion, leave a net loss of the cost of regulation at 169 billion, which we pay for. Regulation alone raises medical care costs by 8.9%. Lawyers and malpractice like it more. Business collects ALL costs fromus. Screwing them is screwing us.
Then explain why there are so many systems so much better than ours. The French system, as I've been reporting, as well as several dozen others around the world.
Even with everything you say above, 45,000 NORMAL people will die due to a lack of health coverage. And you like this system??
How many dead must there be for you to say, "Enough?"
100,000 dead each year?
200,000 dead?
1,000,000 dead?
When do you say, "Enough, we need a system that doesn't allow this."
toeg1, "Enough, we need a system that doesnt allow this". A system where the Federal Govt does not bury us in red tape and regulations to burn up 8.9% of Health expenditures in regulatory burden in excess of benefit. When the Federal govt will allow Health Ins Co`s to be permitted to compete in any state they wish, opening up competition with Govt created monopolies. When the Federal Govt will limit lawyers huge awards from excessive suits, which have increased 2500% in the last 35 years.
toeg1, When our HealthCare model based on your job, coming about from wage and price controls from the FEDS during WW2, where businesses began giving insurance to lure workers when they could not lure them with wages. This is cruel because, lose your job, lose your insurance! When the Feds begin to require some costs to be paid by the people for HealthCare, AS THE FRENCH do, because if care costs you NOTHING, you do not care what they charge! Pay 30% like the French, you WILL ask the cost!
There are 5 specific things we can do to reduce costs in the U.S. I had hoped you would jump in and suggest something. These 5 things are all situations that do Not exist in Europe to the extent that they do in the U.S. Reduce theses problems to the level in Europe, and the system will be much cheaper.
toeg1, Liberals "care" about the poor, sick, etc, I know that. They are sincere, and so they believe they posses the moral high ground. Just a FYI; conservatives, right-wing wackos, free market supporters, whatever you think I am, we also care about the same things you do. We believe your policies cause poverty, desperation, stagnation and hopelessness. We believe our policies will improve the lives of the people you want to help. You, instead, insult, call names, avoid sharing specific ideas.
Quit whining. The only thing worse than seeing a liberal whine is seeing a neocon do it. You don't care. Libs don't care. People die and you both lament "the other."
The costs are born through admin, not fed red tape. Everytime you change jobs you change provider. There's 15% of costs right there. The French pay about 1/2 of what we pay. Their system is better.
I cannot, in 500 char, show all of it. But I can point to webpages that do. And I have done that.
toeg1, you are really a class act. I am suggesting a civil discussion. I suppose that the FDA doesnt impose costs? I suppose that the Feds wouldnt have Admin costs?
toeg1, The French do save a lot on the military besides hiding behind the U.S. The transmissions in their battle tanks have only one gear. Reverse.... Their warplanes are much safer too. The radar they have keeps the planes on the ground when enemy planes are near.
toeg1, The only time the French army wants to go to war, is when the Germans are sipping coffee in Paris. General George Patton, " I would rather have a German Division in front of me, than a French one behind me." Next time there is a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.
Leave your ignorance of world events out of this. You keep forgetting:
US system
1. MOST EXPENSIVE
2. 50 million not covered
3. MOST UNEQUAL
4. 45,000 dead each year as a result.
And you are suggesting that our system is better? Are you really that brain dead that you can't understand what I have been posting?? You like spending more money for less and allowing a system that condemns 45,000 each year to die.
Hooray for your system!!!! Spend more and kill more.
toeg1, the Frenchman calls the police and tells them someone is in his home. The American puts his Colt down and calls the police to come pick up the body. Whats the difference between a Frenchman and an American? Same as the difference between a Renault and a half ton pickup. "I just love the French, they taste like chicken:. Raise one hand if you like the French, if you are French, put both your hands up. The Paris "arch de triumph" was used 4 times, twice by the Germans twice by the US Army.
toeg1, once you are gone, I will consider saving the other 44,999. You know why it took the Germans 3 days to conquer France? It was raining. I have a beautiful French rifle, never fired, only dropped once. Do you know how to confuse a French soldier? Give him a rifle and ask him to shoot. Do you know why the French plant trees on both sides of the street? So the invading army can walk in the shade. Do you know the proper way to introduce yourself in French? "Dont shoot, I give up!"
I'm impressed. The topic is health care. You've stopped discussing health care.
I guess that means that you have no answer and you agree that our system is flawed. Good. Now, start helping implement the suggestions I've made to save you and everyone else here tens of billions of dollars, save tens of thousands of lives every year and insure ALL people for basic health care.
It has been done elsewhere, it can be done here as well. The sooner the better for all.
toeg1, Not at all. You are an insulting, arrogant, evasive, name-calling fruitcake who calls another guy luv. Your You Tube home shows you for the French speaking, America hating, pinko turd you are. So, if you would like to carry on a decent, more respectful dialog, then I think all the French jokes, and the name calling I have just done, well, I feel better now. So, how about it? We can disagree strongly, but, can we pretend to be gentlemen, or not?
That is your name after all. I only reply as others reply to me. You have foregone some of the nastier terms constantly thrown my way, by the basic rant is the same. The US is better because we have bigger houses, or we helped the SU in WWII, or because the French haven't had major militaries since Napoleon.
Our health care system stinks. It has major flaws that need to be repaired. tens of thousands die each year as a result. I have proposed solid steps to improve it.
toeg1, Call me Fred, Dan, Miguel, Jacques, whatever. Jeez, the U.S. is better. I will assume that you intend to not be insulting? You mentioned 3 things, price controls, Arbitrage, sharing medical info. I thought I asked a question about the Arbitrage. Are you thinking consolidation of co`s, or different prices in different areas, or what? Price controls failed since before Diocletian and The Edict of Prices.
better? We already have price controls in the US. I thought you knew that. But it's the market who regulates the price. That's wrong. They are governed by their share holders, not the people. Ergo, we are NOW paying too much.
Arbitrage: The US is known the world over for allowing frivolous lawsuits to be awarded. That's wrong. At the same time, it's wrong to allow incompetent medical staff to use untested drugs and procedures on the public without taking responsibility for it.
A national health care data base will eliminate 10 - 15% of the costs up front. The government doesn't need to control the data base. That can be done by NGOs as long as there is oversight. The costs could be borne by all companies in the medical industry though a small user tax or other means.
Again, our system is broken. Too expensive, too exclusive and too privately controlled. Let's work to improve it, not throw it off a cliff.
I read someplace that data base modernization could cost about $270bill, to implement, save $70 bill, annually. Worth it, but thats not 10% of costs. Who says 10-15%.? Besides, even if a private firm handles it, some guys might be afraid the girls in the med office might discuss the emergency room visit where they pulled a cellphone, or a gerbil out of his rectum. So, I, am go on tort, maybe on computerization of records, a no on price controls. Want to discuss the matter?
Admin costs. Change jobs and now you are on 2 DIFFERENT medical databases. Change again, now 3. change again, now 4. How many databases do you want to be on, anyway?
Are you really safer on 4 different databases? Every change = potential mistake. One database and it can be included in current tax rate. Plus!! No more delays while med database B requests file from med database A. Fewer people to handle info, fewer mistakes, fewer gerbil stories.
toeg1, price controls are when a govt dictates over free market setting prices. Market prices balance by the forces of both sides of the transaction, supply, demand.That is why I suggested a discussion of profits. You declined. When the profits of these players are examined, it does not explain why our prices are so much higher than France. I could not find reference to using arbitrage regarding tort reform. I support tort reform, to the extent of bringing it down, reducing it.
If you take out the 50 million people who probably couldn't pay top dollar for the med services, then your profit increases substantially and your risks diminish.
Is this fair to all?? No
Is this common pracitce?? Yes.
Capitalism = make profit and decrease risk regardless of method. Only shareholders dictate policy. If people die, so what? They probably couldn't pay the marked up price to begin with.
Without proper oversight, markets look to make maximum profit and screw the risks, i.e. those who can't pay top dollar. Other countries have cheaper med prices and cheaper services because there is oversight.
Not so in the US. Big pharma CONTROLS govt. They dictate govt. policy and they answer to their shareholders. The US is the only country that screws its own people like that. Preexisting condition = bye bye, you die. Too poor, you die. 45,000 every year. US is only country to do that.
By moving capital to the more profitable industry by buying shares, the new higher value of the shares increases the value of the corporation, and gives it the ability to raise capital by selling shares into the market. Wells Fargo did that just a few weeks ago, Happens all the time.
The US develops 45% of all new global drugs. France 3%. The French have price controls, Control our prices and we can produce 3% too. People all over the world will be deprived of our development leadership.
What the market will bear is not the same as MORE than the market will bear. The market is balance between BOTH sides. A Rolls Royce may have a market value of $200,000. That certainly doesnt mean I can buy one. Just because I cant doesnt mean the Govt can/would/should lower its price!
You asked for proof, there it is. Avg profit drug co`s is 17%. If the prices tripled, and costs didnt go up too, how come it is only 17%? Suppose 15 yrs ago a $100drug had 10% profit (costs $90). Suppose the price triples to $300, and costs went up only 2 1/2 times. ($225) Now, list price is $300, cost to make $225. That would make NEW profit margin 33%! Its only 17%!! AND, that assumes profit up from 10% to 17%. a 70% increase! This is arithmetic.
I don't think we can get any farther in this (btw, your bad grammar in Spanish really dilutes your attempt at cussing). So I will address these numbered posts to the rest of the world.
All, Luche is not a fringe thinker at all. He represents at least 50% of today's American mindset. These comments are revealing about a humankind problem, our health. I will present what he (C) and most Americans think about this and their view of life. This is why hegemony can work here.
"Despite having drug insurance, Mr. White says he now pays $110 a month out of pocket for two brand-name allergy medicines, even as he has cut prices in his jewelry store by at least 40 percent to keep customers coming through the door.
He shook his head. What can I do? he said. I need my medicines.
I NEED MY MEDICINES!! You don't need a car, but without medicine you may die. Like, um, 45,000 a year that aren't as lucky as that guy.
Mr Whites drug is about $92 with no profit. Of course, the drug wouldnt exist without the profit. He also paid his drug co`s Fed tax burden, property taxes, SS matching taxes Regulatory costs, lawsuit settlement costs, fees to the lawyers that sued his drug co.
The BIGGEST U.S. healthcare corp United Health has a 3.7% profit. Big deal. Competition keeps it at that rate. GM could not raise its prices above its rivals, and that price was a price they couldnt profit at. If "UNH" raises it prices higher than those in place, it will lose market share to its rivals. If it COULD raise them they WOULD, wouldnt they??
50 million who cant pay the price, wouldnt have the coverage in the first place. But, but if profit was really high, the companies would fight for market share by lowering prices until a new equilibrium point was reached. If the profit levels of an industry seem very high compared to other industries, investors will shift their capital. They will sell shares of the companies with lower profits(lowering share prices) and invest in the shares of companies with more profits(raising share prices).
If anyone makes a huge profit, another greedy capitalist will want a piece of the action too, and this will increase the supply. Money flows where the profit is.
Glad to see you understand the dynamics of the current gov. Indeed, the banksters lost over a trillion dollars with their subprime loans, etc. I hope you know what happened next.
US taxpayer bailed them out.
The med industry does the same thing. You make more money denying coverage for the "risk factors" like expensive care for someone. That's why OUR system is the most expensive. We pay more than anyone else. That's why more people are uninsured.
When I was young, to get a loan, you put 20% down, and had to have good credit. If not, RENT was the answer. It is a rotten idea to loan 100%, to deadbeats. Are you implying the govt didnt pressure the banks to help poor people by relaxing the "old standards"? The US taxpayer actually didnt approve of the bailouts, politicians did. It was NOT taxpayer money either. That assumes the Govt has money. It printed and borrowed the money, It wont be repaid, Feds will print it to repay.
Luche (L) agrees that ours is the most expensive. He agrees that 45,000 die every year. He agrees that 50 million aren't covered.
That's fine as far as Amer. are concerned. Human life has been debased in the US. As he said a lot, profit is everything. If people die, so be it. Risk factors, even if it means killing people, are to be avoided. No risk, maximum profit. This is why 2 illegal wars don't matter. They see the profit behind them.
Notice not one concrete suggestion? Only FEELINGS. toeg makes a claim, when confronted with income statements. wants to run. By the way, I never agreed 50 mill , or to the 45000 dying either. We didnt discuss war, put their is no profit in war generally speaking, only to specific providers.
Big ins makes makes less than 5% profit. Its all over their balance sheets. Get them in 2 seconds at yahoo finance, or one of a hundred other places. This post is about "feelings".
(L) agrees that business runs our government, not the people. He never countered my statements that the US is a corporatocracy (much prettier than Fascist). If you look at the laws written in the US, they have been written by business, not govt.
If you look at our wars, you'll see more private workers than soldiers. Profit. Everything that can be done by private bus. is given to them. Even though US taxpayers pay $100 to wash one gi's clothes, Amer. don't complain. Profit.
If business runs our govt, why do our corporations leave the country, and take jobs with them? If corp`s ran everything, they would insure that conditions were favorable enough to stay in the US. War is not profitable in general. There is NO money in blowing things up.
The operative words in my post were "in general". Specific co`s involved make profit, but it is not good for the overall economy. Lets abolish the private contractors, and draft kids to do it against their will. OK by you?
Sounds perfect to me, we shouldn't have wars without drafts. If we had a draft every time we invaded a country we would invade a hell of a lot less countries.
They WOULD have health care in any other industrialized nation. ONLY in the US are they sacrificed. Only in the US would the common person blissfully accept that 45,000 people MUST die for the profit of these companies. They are a risk factor and don't deserve to live according to your statement above.
Never have prices come down. That's ludicrous. It's a monopoly and they pay Congress handsomely for their undying support.
1980 oil hit about $50 barrel. Around 1998 or so, it hit $11. It was just $150 a barrel recently, today its around $80. Oil companies are bigger than Pharma. By the way, Lasic Surgery costs are much lower today than before. Insurance doesnt usually pay for lasic, , so it is paid for by the patient. Plastic surgery surgery also shows that the trouble with costs is that everyone has someone else paying their bills, and that is a stupid idea.
The economic debacle in the US that has hurt so much of the world has turned Amer. against Amer, but very few against the banksters. As (L) states it's govt's fault to force banks to give bad loans to people. He's not alone in believing this.
The MSM in the US feeds him this type of info everyday. Amer are not blaming "poorer" Amer for the troubles started by the banks and the MIC. It's the job of the MSM to feed this notion that govt is only bad (except for the military, of course).
The PEOPLE of the US buy everything on credit, borrow for a car. for their homes. When homes went up, they refinance again, and spend the money. They do the same every couple of years. There are 2 sides to this stupidity. One, people. 2, banks. So far in debt, and toeg is surprised we have a banking crisis.
Spoken like a true patriot. LIfe, liberty and pursuit of happiness only exists for those who can afford ever more expensive costs. Our forefathers never intended that ALL people should have those rights. They meant to say what you said, ONLY those Americans who can afford expensive care have the right. ALL other Americans, hey you're no longer needed, go and die. They never intended that ALL Americans have those rights.
Where does the Constitution say, all services must be priced so all can afford it? 2nd amendment...You have a right to bear arms. The govt doesnt have to buy you a gun, or force someone to "price it so you like the price". Go buy a beer, dont complain to me about the cost.
As I stated in #5, humans have become nothing more than monetary symbols. There are those who can afford the growing costs just to stay alive, and there are those who are less fortunate and lose all their savings on health care, bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc. Those who can no longer pay for services no longer have the right to live. Human life is now quantified in dollars and cents.
Hartmannovich is a communist agent ,whos programs is trying to undermine American integrity and exceptional-ism.
optionsupdate 1 year ago
Why can't this guy just stop speaking out of the side of his mouth. He doesn't care about free markets. He doesn't know a damn thing about free markets. What really drives this guy is greed and hatred for anyone who doesn't serve him. Republicans aren't the party of NO, they're the party of HATE. No wonder they have to cling to the religious right because they're so far from Christian as anyone could be.
tomblack2112 1 year ago
Hey Kerpen !!! Fuck the free Market. It's end is comming.
rickbar123 1 year ago
Food is more fundamental that Healthcare. So when Jefferson says "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", we get our burgers for free? Arent homes necessary? Thom, you went to looney place.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Food stamps and public housing projects already exist you know
patient0Studios 2 years ago
doherty,
Yes, ours is a whole lot more corrupt. The main problem we have is the lack of good information. Our MSM is nothing more than a propaganda machine for big pharma and the MIC. They have been giving people lies for so long, and pretending that it's "The American Way," that people think any other system is "unAmerican."
Your system may need some work, but it's much better than ours. You guys discuss in the media. Our media says, "Obey, or you're not American."
toeg1 2 years ago
doherty,
I assume your "we" is not the USA. The stats state a fact: The US pays more. and more per person, than any system on Earth. Therefore, you pay less.
In the US there are 50 million who do not have health care. They get health care from ERs only. 45,000 people in the US die each year from lack of health insurance alone. How many die each year in your country??
Do you want to switch systems??
toeg1 2 years ago
Thom`s logic is "we" made markets because Govt has laws in place. So, then it is obvious to Thom that gives Govy the right to control everything. So, for free exchange to happen, there must not be any laws?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
United Health`s Bill McGuire got $124 million one year, about 1/6 of 1% of revenues. Or, about 66 cents on a $400 policy. Averaged about $58 million over 6 years, or about half that.. Thom says 30%, off the top? Gangster in a suit? I suggest looking at UNH (symbol) graph of stock prices to 2005 area, and you can see why Bill made money, stockholders made money. Bill`s job is make stockholders happy, not pleasing Thom. Thom calls people Tea Baggers, a vile reference, reflecting on himself.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Thom calls people Tea Baggers, a vile reference, reflecting on himself.... Well they call themselves Teabaggers.. Soo...
Plastique47 2 years ago
I will grant that some folks could have used that term, folks unaware of the crude sexual reference. You, think they KNEW the meaning? However, that kind of use is not crude intentionally. Thom is using it because being crude and vile is his intent.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Oh, the same people who hold up signs depicting Obama as Hitler, and screaming at people at political town hall meetings? He's being vile to THOSE PEOPLE!?
Plastique47 2 years ago
Are you responsible for all the acts of all the liberals? Thom is responsible for Thom.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
I saw liberals with pictures of Bush as Hitler too, is it civil for me to refer to all liberals in a vile way?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Sean Hannity and Friends on the Fox News Network do enough of that.
Plastique47 2 years ago
Are Capitalist, Socialist vile labels? Please share a vile comment of Hannity, name a friend of his who used a vile sexual reference such as Thom Hartman and "tea baggers".
luvcheney1 2 years ago
No they call themselves Tea PARTIERS.
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Lets see, gangster in a suit, 30% off the top? Thom, you are so bitter. Please check your math, 30% off the top? Puleeeeze!
luvcheney1 2 years ago
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luvcheney1 2 years ago
money for a war in the WRONG FREEEKING COUNTRY is just fine out of your wallet? meanwhile, the waitress who has no sick days or insurance is prepping your salad with swine flu?! brilliant!! stay classy!
jenspice27 2 years ago
Actually, you are off subject, but, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Madeline Albright ( Cinton`s secy of state), John Kerry and others all believed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. They all spoke about it before Bush was elected. They all forgot afterward. Kerry even appealed in Congress for military action against Saddam for giving U.N. inspectors a hard time. All before 9/11.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Your titles are too long. Oh, to answer the question -- because they are greedy fucks, that's why.
1noen1 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
So Hartmann says that the "life" in "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" means healhcare is a right? So does the liberty part mean that you are at liberty to take money from your neighbors wallet?
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
@TheKuffarKid It means having a standard of living that allows you to focus on your dreams instead of worrying about going hungry or losing your house. It means never having to consider stealing because you never have to fear being exploited for a necessity of life.
TheyCallHimTheTops 2 years ago 2
And just how would that standard of living be acheived?
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
I think you OUGHT to worry about yourself, because I have my own problems. But, I am not asking you to give me a bunch of stuff so I can go and meditate somewhere.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
That would be stealing. Are you implying that national healthcare would be stealing?
Plastique47 2 years ago
I have a RIGHT to keep and bear arms does that mean the gov. has to buy me a weapon? You CAN'T have a right that requires someone elses participitation. Health care requires someone elses participation through actual physical labor or by taking someone else's money.
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Well sir, good point. The government allows you to buy a weapon at your own free will, without insurers telling you what kind of weapon or whether or not you can or can not. Also, moralistically, and economically, it seems to be the right decision to go with government healthcare.
Plastique47 2 years ago
And by you buying a gun, are you saying that it didnt take someone else's labor? Someone had to make the gun, someone had to make the bullets. Unless you make your own guns and ammo, which would be very unique.
Plastique47 2 years ago
Yes of course it took someones labor. It's labor that I voluntarily pay for. Noone had a gun put to their head to make it.
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Umm.. Okay. The same goes for Doctors and health care. Its not like they will be working for free.
Plastique47 2 years ago
How will they be paid?
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Uhh... Dollars.... Who's dollars you ask? Everyones, especially rich people. Preventive Healthcare+Healthy Living=Less Illness=Less Emergency Room Visits=Less Money Spent=Less Taxes.... Limited to No Healthcare+Unhealthy Living=More Illness=More Emergency Room Visits=More Money Spent=More Taxes
Plastique47 2 years ago
So you think you have a RIGHT to someone else's dollars?
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Well they are my dollars too.
Plastique47 2 years ago
In an odd way yes, because people who make more money, are also using more of Earth's (everybody's) collective resources to do so. Therefore, they ought to give more back to society as a whole. Consider it a cost of doing business, keeping your customers alive and well to buy your products.
TheyCallHimTheTops 2 years ago
Average profit of U.S. corporations is about 5%. A $500 a month insurance policy means $25 profit.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Tops, what resources do YOU own?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
We're sending all the bills to you!
jimlaregina 2 years ago
You can at least reload your ammo. Fun with explosives!
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Well said!
luvcheney1 2 years ago
No it would be more like robbing.
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Oh, so go to the emergency room where they have to accept you as a patient, whether or not you have insurance or not. If you dont have insurance, who pays for that emergency room visit? Why are people who dont have insurance in the emergency room? Maybe because whatever illness or injury they have has not been treated properly, and now they cant take it anymore. If they had insurance, maybe we wouldnt have to front such an enormous bill.
Plastique47 2 years ago
Because, they would rather have 200 channels instead of a high deductible policy.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Yes, you`re right, thats what Thom means. Nobody worry about yourself, ask Obama to take care of us.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
What most Americans are oblivious to is the fact that other countries have long ago solved this issue. And they've solved it while spending much less than Americans spend per capita.
The current US system is one of the most expensive, least egalitarian and least regulated in the world. The US was 37th best in the world in 2000, before we had 50 million uninsured. But most Americans love this program and refuse any cheaper and better system.
toeg1 2 years ago 4
Lots of Canadians getting medical help here.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Is there a reason for your nonsequitor response?
toeg1 2 years ago
Lovers of big government, usually refer to Canada as one of these wonderful places, yet Canadians come here when they are suffering, even though its free at home. Sorry, I thought my response obvious.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
sorry luv,
I'm afraid your ignorance of the subject betrays you. The US was 37th, not second, in 2000. You need to see the other 35 as well.
Also, Americans, whose government does not provide much support, spends more than anyone else.
Now you might like paying more than the rest of the world for a system that is far worse than much of the rest of the world, but I feel it's wrong. You like to waste your money, not me.
I thought that was obvious.
toeg1 2 years ago
Govt in the U.S provides about 45% of healthcare NOW. (Fed plus local). This is not a free market already. As for the rest of the world being cheaper, true. My home is worth $200,000 here, if I moved it to Chiapas, Mexico, it would be $30,000. Prices respond to the ability to pay. Years ago, in the times of "Leave it to Beaver", only Daddy worked. Now, Mommy is liberated and works too, so home prices represent 2 incomes, not 1. You wont see the average Somali paying $4 for a burger either.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
poor luv,
Your ignorance gives you away. Your house would cost more in Europe, yet they pay next to nothing for their health care. The US has the most expensive health care in the world, not the most expensive houses.
You need to stop arguing your points. The US health care system is broken. Even you say that. But you want a system where the poor die at an early age and the rich live like kings. That's wrong.
The US system is broken and you don't know why, admit it.
toeg1 2 years ago
Average US home start is 2169 sq ft, Great Britain 684 sq ft. Denmark, largest in Europe is 1233 sq ft. Homes, yards are tiny in Europe, for the average guy.Want to talk about yard size? How about vehicles? Where i live, illegal aliens own 2600 sq ft homes, and drive Chevy Tahoes. Cup of cke size? Weight of meat on a typical restaurant plate?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Please, share with me, I would like to know the parts of the health care proposals in the Senate and House that will reduce the cost of health care. We can agree, reducing costs of care is good.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
oooh luv,
Size of average homes is sooo important to health care. You win. The US system is better because our average house size is larger.
doherty,
That's exactly what I mean about the propaganda here. Americans can no longer focus on the problem. It's all about "US is the best .... even if it's not true."
There are plenty of systems around the world that are better than ours, but Americans will NEVER look at them because ... "They aren't American made."
Silly, but real.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, You are the one who brought up other countries into the healthcare discussion here. My point is that costs in foreign countries are affected by many factors between the countries. Do you disagree with that? If your point is that we pay more than any other country, I agree. Because?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, I still would like to know how the healthcare proposals in the House and Senate are going to lower the cost of healthcare in the U.S. I too, want lower healthcare costs. Since I am ignorant, please enlighten me.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
I don't think the health care systems being passed will be cheaper. We have a "for profit" health care. Congress is paid by those same companies to make sure they make more money, not less. They are paid hundreds of millions of dollars. Congress works for them, not us.
For these very reasons, we pay more than the rest of the world. It's "for profit" not "for the people." Laws are passed so their bosses make more money, not so the people are better served.
toeg1 2 years ago
I see, how much profit do they make? Not in dollars, as a percent.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, since Obama and Congress have been basically calling the healh insurance executives scumbags and such, why is it that their stock prices are rising as the Congress races to "protect" us? The largest, United health, (UNH) is especially tasty over the last few months. I thought rising stock prices meant expectation of rising profits? Doesnt appear they expect to start making less money to me.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
You're not understanding. Obama and Congress WORK for these "scumbags." I care less what verbiage they use. I know who pays their bills.
Big Pharma will make A LOT more money. Their workers (Congress + Pres) have ensured that they make more money.
Congress DOES NOT work for the people. Stop believing that crap. Congress is paid by big pharma. They pass laws for big pharma. The DO NOT pass laws for the people.
Are you really reading this??
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1 Yes, I get you. Just what percent of revenue is profit for a healthcare insurance plan? Big Pharma? Kaiser Permanente Health Insurance IS non-profit, not cheap.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
You should know that that's an open question. Each company has its own %. I could care less how much profit they make on the sick and infirm, the fact that they do it is morally irreprehensible.
We need a gov. that concerns itself with the needs of the people, not the needs of the corporations. Republicrats worry ONLY about their bosses, which ain't you and me.
Worrying about detail on how much we're being screwed doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor. Let's stop it.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1...First, you state "for profit" is what makes our system worse. Then you say, "STOP, lets not examine profit"? United Health(UNG), largest health insurer in U.S. made 3.7% in 2008. Eliminate ALL profit lowers a $400 policy by $14.80!!. I do NOT believe you, me, Thom Hartman, Obama, or anyone thinks that is even significant. Or, is $385.20 the big deal you were waiting for?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
ahh, luv,
Now I see your dilemma. You apparently hold the notion that "for profit" is a good thing as long as it's not "too much," whatever that nebulous definition is.
You forget the most basic premise of all.
Government needs to work for the people, not for companies. They need to do what's best for citizens, not corporations. If you think that having a government that ONLY works for corporations is good, then you're sorely mistaken
toeg1 2 years ago
Government needs to work for the people. In all the countries that have better health care for much less cost, their government did what was in the best interest of the people, not business.
Their gov worked for the people. Now, the people have national health care for up to half our cost per capita and their system covers everyone. If you are really in love with a system that doesn't care about you, you're in the right country. Gov here ensures corporate profits above all else, including you
toeg1 2 years ago
please take time to watch George Carlin's sketch on who really owns America. If you think you have a government that works for you, then you're blind to reality.
Who Really Owns America, George Carlin. After all, who gives Congress hundreds of millions of dollars every year so that their personal legislation always passes?? Who supplies both major parties with 90% of their funding??
I certainly don't.
I don't think you do either.
But I know who does.
toeg1 2 years ago
So, you dislike our Govt, and your solution is a bigger govt? That is exactly what you HAVE been getting for the last 80 years. Federal spending from 3% of GDP to about 18% of GDP. (now closer to 25% due to "recession"). We have a govt 6 to 8 times bigger as a percent of GDP.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, Lets try this; you make one serious proposal that would lower the cost of healthcare, without damaging the little guy. Then, I will make one.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Your analogy is erroneous. Just because I don't like corporatocracy, you think I'm an anarchist. btw, we've had a fed gov since 1789, no 1929.
The French system - covers ALL and for much less.
The French Health Care System
medicalnewstoday (dot) com article 9994 has an excellent article on the French system. One of the best in the world and costs much less.
And look, they have for-profit cos as well, amazing.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, No! I dont think at all you are an anarchist, you like big Govt. I used 80 years, because I recall in Friedman`s book he mentioned 3% Fed spending at that time, and it is not ancient history. Ah yes, the French. They certainly are the ones, arent they? Wouldnt have survived the last century 3 times if the U.S. hadnt slaughtered the Germans twice, and kept the Reds out of Paris. Dont worry though, Ahmedinejad will nuke them, since Obama is not going to protect them.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
I went to the site you provided. It said that 20% of your income was deducted "at source". That the govt paid about 75% of the costs. You can, of course, buy more insurance to cover the unpaid portion. So, if I make $40000, I am so lucky to pay $8000 for insurance that pays 75% of my costs, AND, (the best part!) the govt will decide on which procedures I can have! Wonder if Obama could pass that here? AND this is the best in Europe?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
It happens to beat a system that allows 40,000 people to die from preventable diseases every year. Or maybe you prefer that people die unnecessarily.
The US system is the most expensive in the world, ergo France is cheaper (and by a lot). In France, those 40,000 people get to live, not so in the US.
But if all you have against their system is the cost, which is cheaper, and guaranteed procedures which keep you alive, then you have no complaints.
toeg1 2 years ago
So, if I propose a 20% tax on incomes to fund healthcare reform, and that gets us a 25% co-pay on most services, except big procedures are covered 100%, you would be happy? $40,000 is NOT rich, you would pay $8000 taxes? Then, if you need some services you can pay 25%? I am 59, my wife and I are covered at $3600 annual premium with a $7000 family deductible. Usually we run about $2000 out of pocket, $5600 annual.(blue cross). Worst case (heart attack) $3600 plus $7000 is $10600. France is more.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, you suggested I look at France`s system at a site YOU suggest, but, as usual you do not respond to the numbers I posted about France at YOUR site! I see just talking points, not a discussion of how it is funded. So, if I just say, "France stinks, America is the best", that is true, but is not a serious comment.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
The article I posted states that Soc. Sec. is funded at 20%, which is much more than just health. You need better English comprehension skills. In the US it's 15% at source AND then I STILL pay for health care.
Go to ANY stat site (I use Nationmaster) and you will see a side by side comparison which clearly shows the US to be the most expensive.
US = $4,631/capita
France = $2,349/capita
roughly half of US cost. AND 50 mil ARE insured, not like US.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, The article YOU sent me to says "the French public health insurance system known as the Securite Sociale (social security). It does Not discuss, mention anything except Health. It also DOES say""financing is supported by employers, employee contributions and personal income taxes. The working population has 20% of their gross salary deducted at source to fund the social security system."" In OUR system 7.65% is deducted from our gross , the employer matches,but not out of our gross.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
It's good of you to point out exactly where your comprehension skills falther. Indeed, it does say, "20% .... to find social security." I assume you are intelligent enough to known the difference between "social security" and "health care."
So you agree with my premise. ALL stats agree with my statement that the US spends more than anyone else on planet Earth per capita and still has one of the worst systems among industrialized nations.
I'm glad you can agree on that.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, AGAIN it said "French public health insurance system known as Social Security."
The part about the 20% is it is from the workers GROSS wage, AND there are employer taxes, and income taxes also going in, so total tax is much more than the 20%. It may be health, and pension, YOUR article does not say that.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Here is the entire French social security system: cleiss(dot)fr look for The French Social Security System. Health care is only a part of it, not all of it.
US = $4,631/capita (and 50 mil uninsured)
France = $2,349/capita (and NO ONE uninsured)
US = 45,000 more deaths each year
France = ZERO more deaths each year
You are for more expensive and deadlier system. Why???
See Max Keiser On the Edge today's episode.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, No puedo leer este pinche pajina pendejo culero. Sorry, i went to the website.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Here is the entire French social security system: cleiss( dot) fr look for The French Social Security System. Health care is only a part of it, not all of it.
US = $4,631/capita (and 50 mil uninsured)
France = $2,349/capita (and NO ONE uninsured)
US = 45,000 more deaths each year
France = ZERO more deaths each year
You are for more expensive and deadlier system. Why???
See Max Keiser On the Edge today's episode.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, Please.....I need no proof health care costs much more here! I never said it didnt! It costs too much here! That is NOT the point! The point is WHY? The point is how do we lower the costs? The point is, if the French have the answer, what part or parts of their system are beneficial to us. What specific actions have they taken that would lower costs here?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
1. A national patient data base so changing plans doesn't mean recreating all from scratch.
2. Employer/worker control of prices, accepted procedures, equipment and costs.
3. Employer/worker control of arbitrage.
Those are some obvious immediate benefits. No. 1 would probably save the US over 10% of total costs immediately. No. 2 and 3 would regulate costs fairly among all, but would be hard to set up.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1`, French govt spending is 44% of GDP, US is 27%,, France 63% more than the US. Of course, that money comes from the average worker, who pays 71.3% of his income in taxes. Now, Obama has promised, and been elected Pres, by promising to tax the rich. Please explain how you sell to the American public that you will let him keep $229.60 of an $800 weekly wage? For Health Care he has to pay 30% of all routine services!! Still hoping for an idea from you, besides "France".
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
The average worker DOES NOT PAY 71.3% of his income in taxes. That is a lie. You really should not lie to people, it's bad.
The US pays more than any other country on Earth for health care. The French system would eliminate 50 mil people without health insurance saving the lives of 45,000 people each year. You apparently want to let these people die.
You prefer letting 45,000 die each year. You lie about French taxes. Your comprehension skills are lacking.
What else??
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, Go to Wikipedia and see "Taxation in France". go down to "overview" and read the paragraph. Again, you insult. Read your own site, read Wiki. French govt spending as a percent of GDP is 66% higher than here, certainly that requires a much higher tax burden. There is no Santa Claus. Really.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
At least you've retracted your lie. That's good. I agree the French spend, overall, a lot more than Americans in taxes. Even in Europe they are one of the highest.
But their health care benefits are much better than ours AND they pay less than we do. AND they don't have 45,000 people die each year from a lack of health care.
They have smaller homes and fewer Nobel laureats.
So????
I don't think dying an early death is better as a result. Do you???
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, What lie? your website says that the French healthcare system is known as Social security. I looked around and am agreeing with your assertion that French healthcare is a part of Social security. YOUR website does not state that. I assumed YOUR site was accurate. But, you assert that 20% is the figure for pension and health, It is not, it is the tax taken from worker`s income, more is taken from employers, and income taxes too, as per, your website. That`s obvious, they tax so much.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
English comprehension classes. They would help you immensely, trust me. 71.3% of paycheck goes to taxes is a lie. I said it was a lie, it's still a lie, and deflecting that lie to another part of the comment doesn't change that.
The French DO pay a lot in taxes. The part that goes to health is half as much as Americans pay. AND, they insure everyone. My links showed what they offer. Stats demonstrate they pay about 1/2. It's obvious to those who wish to see.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, I already referenced you to Wikipedia about France`s tax rate. Try some more: "Encyclopedia of the Nations", "France Taxation", then go to 2nd paragraph, about half way down, Average worker taxed 73.2% of gross pay. Try Forbes, Tax Misery & Reform Index. Try selling France to America.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
I said nothing about if profit is too much or not. As long as capital is free to enter into competition, and govt doesnt regulate a monopoly into existence, profit will never be too high.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Capital is free to enter into competition in health care in all major industrial countries and they still have a better system which serves everyone better and is much cheaper.
But capitalism stops at the steps of their government, while it rules ours. But hey, it's only capitalism for 90% of the US. The banksters were paid back for all their losses. Corporatocracy at work. The rich make the rules and we get whatever little they want to send us.
toeg1 2 years ago
I see no specific ideas here. Just platitudes. But, if capital is free to move, there must be profit. Capital doesnt move around for nothing. Again, you say nothing, just "I like the French?"
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
1. I pointed SPECIFICALLY to the article on the site medicalnewstoday. Go and read it. It's longer than 500 spaces. The French system, FROM THAT ARTICLE, is a much better system.
2. You ignorance of world events has nothing to do with health care systems. I don't have time to explain what is really going on in the world.
3. You said you'd counter with a proposal, or was that just a lie?
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, Hey, settle down Sparky! I didnt realize "copy France" was your response. I just read, and posted what i saw in that article. First, since it requires large co-payments for regular medical care, that is a good idea for me. I dont see the American Left selling healthcare by wanting large co-pays. My desire would be large copays (like France) , allow Ins co`s to sell across state lines(cant now), limit lawsuit costs (Dems wont).
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Yeah don't you love how these libs praise Europe though the Euros all have loser pays in lawsuits.
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
luv,
You don't even begin to address the major concerns of US health care. Your ideas still leave 50 million with no health care, 40,000 of whom will not live to see another year. You do nothing to keep people from going into bankruptcy over huge medical bills.
I guess "pursuit of happiness" is only for those who have medical insurance and no major problems. Ins can still write "claim denied" and not pay at all.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, so far, other than an anti American rant from you, the only thing you said was "copy France, look at a website" I looked, I commented on the specific taxes and co-pay that it takes an enormous % of income. You fail to comment, other than "France is better". I gave 3 specific suggestions. Feel free to make 1 specific suggestion, or more! Funny you ranted about profit, have zero desire to talk specific profit margins, then seem OK with profit in France?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
You need a remedial class in English really bad. "The French health care system is better." Hopefully, I didn't use too many big words for you.
All of the French system is better.
Your system leaves 50 mil uninsured, doctors free to perform sloppy work without fear of repraisal, private companies to continue raising costs indefinitely and with no checks and balances. Your system kills 40,000 people every year.
And you like that??? Are you sick or what?
toeg1 2 years ago
Especially the average worker getting to keep 28.7% of his income in France? Please let me know when you can choose ONE idea that lowers the cost of healthcare here, besides "copy France". Is asking you a question rude? I admit insulting the Frogs. But, do I insult you? I read what YOU suggested, ask for an example from you. You just call me ignorant. Now, me and the boys are going cruising for chicks in my new Renault, I got a case of Perrier in the tiny little trunk. Got a Kielbasa in yours?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
A little factoid for you. The combined population of the EU, Switzerland, Japan, Canada, and Australia is roughly double what the pop of the US is, however, the US has garnered 40% more nobel prizes in medicine. (57 to 40)The innovations that the US produces get used by these other countries to make their systems look good w/out bearing the cost.
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
Oooohhhhhh Kuf,
More Nobel prizes in medicine. oohhhhh.
I'll be sure to let the families of those who died needlessly due to American inequality in health care that they are lucky to die in a country that has more nobel winners. Of course, they could still be alive in many other countries, but those countries have less Nobel prize winners.
toeg1 2 years ago
Get mellow dramatic much?
TheKuffarKid 2 years ago
The point is, the U.S. PAYS for the development of pharmaceuticals, and medical advances to a much greater degree than they do. If they dont get paid mostly by the US, advancement will not occur. They take a free ride.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
That's bs and you know it. Medical advances come from all over the world. In the US, we have the "luxury" of having big pharma run our FDA so ANY drug they wish to give to Americans, regardless of its potential risks, are automatically passed. I guess you don't watch the Food Channel very much. There are many videos on the crap we are given by big pharma just because they run the FDA.
You need to learn what is really going on in the US. Blindness to reality doesn't help.
toeg1 2 years ago
Yea toeg1, and it takes 12 years and between $800 million-$1.5billion to accomplish it PER DRUG! Medical Malpractice awards up 2500% since 1975. Trial lawyers support WHO? Govt regulations on the health industry are about 339.2 billion, benefit value is 170 billion, leave a net loss of the cost of regulation at 169 billion, which we pay for. Regulation alone raises medical care costs by 8.9%. Lawyers and malpractice like it more. Business collects ALL costs fromus. Screwing them is screwing us.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Then explain why there are so many systems so much better than ours. The French system, as I've been reporting, as well as several dozen others around the world.
Even with everything you say above, 45,000 NORMAL people will die due to a lack of health coverage. And you like this system??
How many dead must there be for you to say, "Enough?"
100,000 dead each year?
200,000 dead?
1,000,000 dead?
When do you say, "Enough, we need a system that doesn't allow this."
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, "Enough, we need a system that doesnt allow this". A system where the Federal Govt does not bury us in red tape and regulations to burn up 8.9% of Health expenditures in regulatory burden in excess of benefit. When the Federal govt will allow Health Ins Co`s to be permitted to compete in any state they wish, opening up competition with Govt created monopolies. When the Federal Govt will limit lawyers huge awards from excessive suits, which have increased 2500% in the last 35 years.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, When our HealthCare model based on your job, coming about from wage and price controls from the FEDS during WW2, where businesses began giving insurance to lure workers when they could not lure them with wages. This is cruel because, lose your job, lose your insurance! When the Feds begin to require some costs to be paid by the people for HealthCare, AS THE FRENCH do, because if care costs you NOTHING, you do not care what they charge! Pay 30% like the French, you WILL ask the cost!
luvcheney1 2 years ago
There are 5 specific things we can do to reduce costs in the U.S. I had hoped you would jump in and suggest something. These 5 things are all situations that do Not exist in Europe to the extent that they do in the U.S. Reduce theses problems to the level in Europe, and the system will be much cheaper.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, Liberals "care" about the poor, sick, etc, I know that. They are sincere, and so they believe they posses the moral high ground. Just a FYI; conservatives, right-wing wackos, free market supporters, whatever you think I am, we also care about the same things you do. We believe your policies cause poverty, desperation, stagnation and hopelessness. We believe our policies will improve the lives of the people you want to help. You, instead, insult, call names, avoid sharing specific ideas.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Quit whining. The only thing worse than seeing a liberal whine is seeing a neocon do it. You don't care. Libs don't care. People die and you both lament "the other."
The costs are born through admin, not fed red tape. Everytime you change jobs you change provider. There's 15% of costs right there. The French pay about 1/2 of what we pay. Their system is better.
I cannot, in 500 char, show all of it. But I can point to webpages that do. And I have done that.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, you are really a class act. I am suggesting a civil discussion. I suppose that the FDA doesnt impose costs? I suppose that the Feds wouldnt have Admin costs?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
66% percent bigger Govt is better? Google "riots in France" and see how many hits you get.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, The French do save a lot on the military besides hiding behind the U.S. The transmissions in their battle tanks have only one gear. Reverse.... Their warplanes are much safer too. The radar they have keeps the planes on the ground when enemy planes are near.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, The only time the French army wants to go to war, is when the Germans are sipping coffee in Paris. General George Patton, " I would rather have a German Division in front of me, than a French one behind me." Next time there is a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
Leave your ignorance of world events out of this. You keep forgetting:
US system
1. MOST EXPENSIVE
2. 50 million not covered
3. MOST UNEQUAL
4. 45,000 dead each year as a result.
And you are suggesting that our system is better? Are you really that brain dead that you can't understand what I have been posting?? You like spending more money for less and allowing a system that condemns 45,000 each year to die.
Hooray for your system!!!! Spend more and kill more.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, the Frenchman calls the police and tells them someone is in his home. The American puts his Colt down and calls the police to come pick up the body. Whats the difference between a Frenchman and an American? Same as the difference between a Renault and a half ton pickup. "I just love the French, they taste like chicken:. Raise one hand if you like the French, if you are French, put both your hands up. The Paris "arch de triumph" was used 4 times, twice by the Germans twice by the US Army.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, once you are gone, I will consider saving the other 44,999. You know why it took the Germans 3 days to conquer France? It was raining. I have a beautiful French rifle, never fired, only dropped once. Do you know how to confuse a French soldier? Give him a rifle and ask him to shoot. Do you know why the French plant trees on both sides of the street? So the invading army can walk in the shade. Do you know the proper way to introduce yourself in French? "Dont shoot, I give up!"
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
I'm impressed. The topic is health care. You've stopped discussing health care.
I guess that means that you have no answer and you agree that our system is flawed. Good. Now, start helping implement the suggestions I've made to save you and everyone else here tens of billions of dollars, save tens of thousands of lives every year and insure ALL people for basic health care.
It has been done elsewhere, it can be done here as well. The sooner the better for all.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, Not at all. You are an insulting, arrogant, evasive, name-calling fruitcake who calls another guy luv. Your You Tube home shows you for the French speaking, America hating, pinko turd you are. So, if you would like to carry on a decent, more respectful dialog, then I think all the French jokes, and the name calling I have just done, well, I feel better now. So, how about it? We can disagree strongly, but, can we pretend to be gentlemen, or not?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luv,
That is your name after all. I only reply as others reply to me. You have foregone some of the nastier terms constantly thrown my way, by the basic rant is the same. The US is better because we have bigger houses, or we helped the SU in WWII, or because the French haven't had major militaries since Napoleon.
Our health care system stinks. It has major flaws that need to be repaired. tens of thousands die each year as a result. I have proposed solid steps to improve it.
toeg1 2 years ago
toeg1, Call me Fred, Dan, Miguel, Jacques, whatever. Jeez, the U.S. is better. I will assume that you intend to not be insulting? You mentioned 3 things, price controls, Arbitrage, sharing medical info. I thought I asked a question about the Arbitrage. Are you thinking consolidation of co`s, or different prices in different areas, or what? Price controls failed since before Diocletian and The Edict of Prices.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Luche,
better? We already have price controls in the US. I thought you knew that. But it's the market who regulates the price. That's wrong. They are governed by their share holders, not the people. Ergo, we are NOW paying too much.
Arbitrage: The US is known the world over for allowing frivolous lawsuits to be awarded. That's wrong. At the same time, it's wrong to allow incompetent medical staff to use untested drugs and procedures on the public without taking responsibility for it.
toeg1 2 years ago
finally,
A national health care data base will eliminate 10 - 15% of the costs up front. The government doesn't need to control the data base. That can be done by NGOs as long as there is oversight. The costs could be borne by all companies in the medical industry though a small user tax or other means.
Again, our system is broken. Too expensive, too exclusive and too privately controlled. Let's work to improve it, not throw it off a cliff.
toeg1 2 years ago
I read someplace that data base modernization could cost about $270bill, to implement, save $70 bill, annually. Worth it, but thats not 10% of costs. Who says 10-15%.? Besides, even if a private firm handles it, some guys might be afraid the girls in the med office might discuss the emergency room visit where they pulled a cellphone, or a gerbil out of his rectum. So, I, am go on tort, maybe on computerization of records, a no on price controls. Want to discuss the matter?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luche,
Admin costs. Change jobs and now you are on 2 DIFFERENT medical databases. Change again, now 3. change again, now 4. How many databases do you want to be on, anyway?
Are you really safer on 4 different databases? Every change = potential mistake. One database and it can be included in current tax rate. Plus!! No more delays while med database B requests file from med database A. Fewer people to handle info, fewer mistakes, fewer gerbil stories.
toeg1 2 years ago
OK, I will buy, the database. But, show me where I can go to believe the 10-15% savings.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Where can I see 15% saving from database consolidation?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
I agree it is too expensive, and wish it to be less expensive.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
FYI, France`s % of GDP to tax ratio 63% more than the US. The US has a per capita GDP that is
43% larger than France. Raise taxes, collapse the US to France`s productivity.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Toeg1, Luche, well, I really dont know what the hell that is, so I dont know. But, I will assume so, until I know better. see ya later.......
luvcheney1 2 years ago
toeg1, price controls are when a govt dictates over free market setting prices. Market prices balance by the forces of both sides of the transaction, supply, demand.That is why I suggested a discussion of profits. You declined. When the profits of these players are examined, it does not explain why our prices are so much higher than France. I could not find reference to using arbitrage regarding tort reform. I support tort reform, to the extent of bringing it down, reducing it.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luche,
Capitalism lesson #1. What the market will bear.
If you take out the 50 million people who probably couldn't pay top dollar for the med services, then your profit increases substantially and your risks diminish.
Is this fair to all?? No
Is this common pracitce?? Yes.
Capitalism = make profit and decrease risk regardless of method. Only shareholders dictate policy. If people die, so what? They probably couldn't pay the marked up price to begin with.
toeg1 2 years ago
Without proper oversight, markets look to make maximum profit and screw the risks, i.e. those who can't pay top dollar. Other countries have cheaper med prices and cheaper services because there is oversight.
Not so in the US. Big pharma CONTROLS govt. They dictate govt. policy and they answer to their shareholders. The US is the only country that screws its own people like that. Preexisting condition = bye bye, you die. Too poor, you die. 45,000 every year. US is only country to do that.
toeg1 2 years ago
By moving capital to the more profitable industry by buying shares, the new higher value of the shares increases the value of the corporation, and gives it the ability to raise capital by selling shares into the market. Wells Fargo did that just a few weeks ago, Happens all the time.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
The US develops 45% of all new global drugs. France 3%. The French have price controls, Control our prices and we can produce 3% too. People all over the world will be deprived of our development leadership.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
What the market will bear is not the same as MORE than the market will bear. The market is balance between BOTH sides. A Rolls Royce may have a market value of $200,000. That certainly doesnt mean I can buy one. Just because I cant doesnt mean the Govt can/would/should lower its price!
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luche,
This just in from NYT: "In the last year, the industry has raised the wholesale prices of brand-name prescription drugs by about 9 percent."
Prices have gone up 300% in 15 years. Is that inflation?? Where there other cos that reduced their prices to fight for market share???
I don't think so.
Open your eyes. They raise it 300% and you think that's a great thing??? Prove their COSTS rose 300% then.
toeg1 2 years ago
Look up Pfizer`s income statement. 16.77% profit. Regulatory cost run 9% in the US.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
You asked for proof, there it is. Avg profit drug co`s is 17%. If the prices tripled, and costs didnt go up too, how come it is only 17%? Suppose 15 yrs ago a $100drug had 10% profit (costs $90). Suppose the price triples to $300, and costs went up only 2 1/2 times. ($225) Now, list price is $300, cost to make $225. That would make NEW profit margin 33%! Its only 17%!! AND, that assumes profit up from 10% to 17%. a 70% increase! This is arithmetic.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
#1 - Luche,
I don't think we can get any farther in this (btw, your bad grammar in Spanish really dilutes your attempt at cussing). So I will address these numbered posts to the rest of the world.
All, Luche is not a fringe thinker at all. He represents at least 50% of today's American mindset. These comments are revealing about a humankind problem, our health. I will present what he (C) and most Americans think about this and their view of life. This is why hegemony can work here.
toeg1 2 years ago
luche,
you miss the obvious: NYT article
"Despite having drug insurance, Mr. White says he now pays $110 a month out of pocket for two brand-name allergy medicines, even as he has cut prices in his jewelry store by at least 40 percent to keep customers coming through the door.
He shook his head. What can I do? he said. I need my medicines.
I NEED MY MEDICINES!! You don't need a car, but without medicine you may die. Like, um, 45,000 a year that aren't as lucky as that guy.
toeg1 2 years ago
Mr Whites drug is about $92 with no profit. Of course, the drug wouldnt exist without the profit. He also paid his drug co`s Fed tax burden, property taxes, SS matching taxes Regulatory costs, lawsuit settlement costs, fees to the lawyers that sued his drug co.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
The BIGGEST U.S. healthcare corp United Health has a 3.7% profit. Big deal. Competition keeps it at that rate. GM could not raise its prices above its rivals, and that price was a price they couldnt profit at. If "UNH" raises it prices higher than those in place, it will lose market share to its rivals. If it COULD raise them they WOULD, wouldnt they??
luvcheney1 2 years ago
50 million who cant pay the price, wouldnt have the coverage in the first place. But, but if profit was really high, the companies would fight for market share by lowering prices until a new equilibrium point was reached. If the profit levels of an industry seem very high compared to other industries, investors will shift their capital. They will sell shares of the companies with lower profits(lowering share prices) and invest in the shares of companies with more profits(raising share prices).
luvcheney1 2 years ago
ah luche,
A big flaw. They ARE price control?? You don't know capitalism.
law #1 charge as much as possible
law #2 no pay = no service.
law #3 pay Cong = laws ALWAYS in your favor. Who wrote this one?? Big ins and big pharma. It was all over CSPAN.
law #3 big profits mean big bonus. No profit means fired. They all got big bonuses. Stock market for themn is way up. They make MORE money.
Companies answer to shareholders NEVER the people.
toeg1 2 years ago
If anyone makes a huge profit, another greedy capitalist will want a piece of the action too, and this will increase the supply. Money flows where the profit is.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
luche,
Glad to see you understand the dynamics of the current gov. Indeed, the banksters lost over a trillion dollars with their subprime loans, etc. I hope you know what happened next.
US taxpayer bailed them out.
The med industry does the same thing. You make more money denying coverage for the "risk factors" like expensive care for someone. That's why OUR system is the most expensive. We pay more than anyone else. That's why more people are uninsured.
toeg1 2 years ago
When I was young, to get a loan, you put 20% down, and had to have good credit. If not, RENT was the answer. It is a rotten idea to loan 100%, to deadbeats. Are you implying the govt didnt pressure the banks to help poor people by relaxing the "old standards"? The US taxpayer actually didnt approve of the bailouts, politicians did. It was NOT taxpayer money either. That assumes the Govt has money. It printed and borrowed the money, It wont be repaid, Feds will print it to repay.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
#2 -
Luche (L) agrees that ours is the most expensive. He agrees that 45,000 die every year. He agrees that 50 million aren't covered.
That's fine as far as Amer. are concerned. Human life has been debased in the US. As he said a lot, profit is everything. If people die, so be it. Risk factors, even if it means killing people, are to be avoided. No risk, maximum profit. This is why 2 illegal wars don't matter. They see the profit behind them.
toeg1 2 years ago
Notice not one concrete suggestion? Only FEELINGS. toeg makes a claim, when confronted with income statements. wants to run. By the way, I never agreed 50 mill , or to the 45000 dying either. We didnt discuss war, put their is no profit in war generally speaking, only to specific providers.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Big ins makes makes less than 5% profit. Its all over their balance sheets. Get them in 2 seconds at yahoo finance, or one of a hundred other places. This post is about "feelings".
luvcheney1 2 years ago
#3
(L) agrees that business runs our government, not the people. He never countered my statements that the US is a corporatocracy (much prettier than Fascist). If you look at the laws written in the US, they have been written by business, not govt.
If you look at our wars, you'll see more private workers than soldiers. Profit. Everything that can be done by private bus. is given to them. Even though US taxpayers pay $100 to wash one gi's clothes, Amer. don't complain. Profit.
toeg1 2 years ago
If business runs our govt, why do our corporations leave the country, and take jobs with them? If corp`s ran everything, they would insure that conditions were favorable enough to stay in the US. War is not profitable in general. There is NO money in blowing things up.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
hahah bullshit read a book about private military contracting
Cryptopsy666 2 years ago
The operative words in my post were "in general". Specific co`s involved make profit, but it is not good for the overall economy. Lets abolish the private contractors, and draft kids to do it against their will. OK by you?
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Sounds perfect to me, we shouldn't have wars without drafts. If we had a draft every time we invaded a country we would invade a hell of a lot less countries.
Cryptopsy666 2 years ago
luche,
They WOULD have health care in any other industrialized nation. ONLY in the US are they sacrificed. Only in the US would the common person blissfully accept that 45,000 people MUST die for the profit of these companies. They are a risk factor and don't deserve to live according to your statement above.
Never have prices come down. That's ludicrous. It's a monopoly and they pay Congress handsomely for their undying support.
toeg1 2 years ago
1980 oil hit about $50 barrel. Around 1998 or so, it hit $11. It was just $150 a barrel recently, today its around $80. Oil companies are bigger than Pharma. By the way, Lasic Surgery costs are much lower today than before. Insurance doesnt usually pay for lasic, , so it is paid for by the patient. Plastic surgery surgery also shows that the trouble with costs is that everyone has someone else paying their bills, and that is a stupid idea.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
#4
The economic debacle in the US that has hurt so much of the world has turned Amer. against Amer, but very few against the banksters. As (L) states it's govt's fault to force banks to give bad loans to people. He's not alone in believing this.
The MSM in the US feeds him this type of info everyday. Amer are not blaming "poorer" Amer for the troubles started by the banks and the MIC. It's the job of the MSM to feed this notion that govt is only bad (except for the military, of course).
toeg1 2 years ago
The PEOPLE of the US buy everything on credit, borrow for a car. for their homes. When homes went up, they refinance again, and spend the money. They do the same every couple of years. There are 2 sides to this stupidity. One, people. 2, banks. So far in debt, and toeg is surprised we have a banking crisis.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
Fair doesnt have a thing to do with anything.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
ahh luche,
Spoken like a true patriot. LIfe, liberty and pursuit of happiness only exists for those who can afford ever more expensive costs. Our forefathers never intended that ALL people should have those rights. They meant to say what you said, ONLY those Americans who can afford expensive care have the right. ALL other Americans, hey you're no longer needed, go and die. They never intended that ALL Americans have those rights.
toeg1 2 years ago
Where does the Constitution say, all services must be priced so all can afford it? 2nd amendment...You have a right to bear arms. The govt doesnt have to buy you a gun, or force someone to "price it so you like the price". Go buy a beer, dont complain to me about the cost.
luvcheney1 2 years ago
#6
As I stated in #5, humans have become nothing more than monetary symbols. There are those who can afford the growing costs just to stay alive, and there are those who are less fortunate and lose all their savings on health care, bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc. Those who can no longer pay for services no longer have the right to live. Human life is now quantified in dollars and cents.
toeg1 2 years ago
Feeling, oh oh oh , feelings.................
luvcheney1 2 years ago