Oh will people please shut the fuck up about the BBC being biased. Their bias and agenda seems to change with every individual that ever expresses an opinion. Oh look - typical leftwing QT panel. Oh look, typical BBC - bowing to right by giving mark steel such little time.
Why is it that always the people who say the best things on Question Time are never the politicians... I say we sack em al but put people like Mr. Steel (which is an awesome name btw) in charge.
It shouldn't surprise me anymore but socialists are incredibly fucking ignorant: the banks were massively over leveraged. Why? Because they lent out far too much money to far too many people. If the heroic working class of Mark Steel's imagination hadn't accepted all of this cheap cash and credit from the banks, they wouldn't be in this mess. Everyone in society is responsible for this mess because of the culture of instant gratification.
@Bastiat90 So let me get this straight, multi-millionaire bankers lend money at extortionate rates, mis-sell insurance policies, then award themselves million pound bonuses, and you blame the people on low incomes who borrow to spend on a car or an annual holiday or kids clothes. And it's socialists who are ignorant?
You obviously cannot read or you deliberately misread my comment. I said banks were massively over-leveraged, but if we represent this mathematically, it would be an identity equation. There has to be something to take this money: banks cannot over leverage if they have nobody to lend to. I don't care if people borrow to finance present or future consumption; it's none of my business. But I do care when these borrowers blame the banks when they chose to borrow. Nobody forced them to.
@Bastiat90 A further point - you say "I do care when these borrowers blame the banks when they chose to borrow". But it is clearly not the case that all those criticising the banks are themselves recipients of loans which they cannot repay.
@Bastiat90 The idea that, as you put it "Everyone in society is responsible for this mess" is pernicious propoganda. The banks' boards of directors bear far more responsibility than any average bank customer. It is they (the directors) who decide on the terms of their loans, as you indeed say "they lent out far too much money to far too many people". People may be forced into taking out loans as a result of low pay, unemployment, rising costs etc. factors largely beyond their control.
Like I said, nobody forced the people to take out bank loans: this is the identity equation, each side is equal to the other. The banks could offer to lend a trillion, but if nobody is willing to borrow, they're stuck. I am on very low pay (less than £10,000 per year) and have never taken out a loan. I just do with so called luxuries like a car, mobile phone, Ipad etc. Nobody needs these things. I have never borrowed money and I don't have any debts as a result
@Bastiat90 OK I understand you may have had a hard time financially yourself, and not borrowed money. But for those that do borrow it is not necessarily for selfish reasons or "instant gratification". Loans are often taken out before Christmas bcz parents want to see their kids have a good time, for example. Or people take out mortgages, then unexpectedly lose their jobs and can't repay. It doesn't seem fair to blame such individuals for the global financial meltdown.
Allow me to clarify: I'm not against private borrowings, but I deplore the attempt of borrowers to lay the blame squarely at those who leant them the money. It is an abdication of responsibility, something for too prevalent in our national culture today, one completely inimical the world of our grandparents.
@Bastiat90 Allow me to clarify: Responsibility for the global economic crisis does not lie equally with those who borrow to cover housing costs or daily living expenses on the one hand, and multi-millionaire bankers who have huge power and influence over national and global economic and political affairs on the other.
@Bastiat90 Am I to take it, then, that you don't blame our grandparents' generation for the depression of the 1930s? Who would you blame for that particular crisis, given the many parallels with the contemporary situation?
I hope you don't respond with the canard that President Hoover was a free market fundamentalist who slashed spending... I'm going to do a bit of shameless advertising for my very low traffic blog. This post explains everything.
If you can't be arsed to read the whole thing (I wouldn't blame you) paragraphs 2-5 are relevant to our little discussion. Enjoy, and if you comment, please be don't be harsh!
@Bastiat90 I did read your comments. I can only think that your readiness to accuse others for ignorance (i.e. apart from the personal attack, your claim that all socialists are "incredibly fucking ignorant) may be indicative of your own inability to grasp the reality of the situation. This is not masked by your use of cod-economic terminology - "if we represent this mathematically, it would be an identity equation".
Well done Mark about time someone exposed the bullshit the tories and the right wing press are spouting.Yet again QT was biased Mark got little time to talk compared to everyone else on the panel the BBC is shitting itself about loosing the license fee.
I earn just £9000 a year: why should my taxes be used to fund someone who earns more than £26,000 a year in benefits? If I were to earn that, I'd have to make £35,000 a year before tax. It isn't bullshit to want to expose the unfairness of it all.
Mark Steel was given 4 minutes to make his point; considerably more time than Ms Philips was given to state her support for the proposal. And it's 'losing' not 'loosing' the licence fee.
@Bastiat90 your taxes wouldnt have to pay for those on benefits if those at the top paid their taxes. You pay your taxes so that if anything went wrong you have a safety net in this country, where as the directors don't pay a penny. does this not anger you? Maybe if they paid we wouldnt have people on benefits, its one part of a much wider problem
@lv4ev5 Funny enough, it only needs to be exposed to the rich, us poor who are being stolen from already know the ins and outs of what the government are doing but we don't have a voice! They won't let us question them and nobody is allowed to question on behalf of us so instead we have a guy who has "comedian" for a label specifically so nobody will take him seriously!!!
Amen!
DementedWorkshop 5 days ago
Oh will people please shut the fuck up about the BBC being biased. Their bias and agenda seems to change with every individual that ever expresses an opinion. Oh look - typical leftwing QT panel. Oh look, typical BBC - bowing to right by giving mark steel such little time.
MrSyrett 2 weeks ago
Why is it that always the people who say the best things on Question Time are never the politicians... I say we sack em al but put people like Mr. Steel (which is an awesome name btw) in charge.
elliot534 2 weeks ago
Well said Mark Steel.
RockBackingTrack 3 weeks ago
love to hear people speaking out the truth, well done Mark Steel! and thanks to 'theNorwichExperience' for sharing
weesoul 3 weeks ago
It shouldn't surprise me anymore but socialists are incredibly fucking ignorant: the banks were massively over leveraged. Why? Because they lent out far too much money to far too many people. If the heroic working class of Mark Steel's imagination hadn't accepted all of this cheap cash and credit from the banks, they wouldn't be in this mess. Everyone in society is responsible for this mess because of the culture of instant gratification.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 So let me get this straight, multi-millionaire bankers lend money at extortionate rates, mis-sell insurance policies, then award themselves million pound bonuses, and you blame the people on low incomes who borrow to spend on a car or an annual holiday or kids clothes. And it's socialists who are ignorant?
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
You obviously cannot read or you deliberately misread my comment. I said banks were massively over-leveraged, but if we represent this mathematically, it would be an identity equation. There has to be something to take this money: banks cannot over leverage if they have nobody to lend to. I don't care if people borrow to finance present or future consumption; it's none of my business. But I do care when these borrowers blame the banks when they chose to borrow. Nobody forced them to.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 A further point - you say "I do care when these borrowers blame the banks when they chose to borrow". But it is clearly not the case that all those criticising the banks are themselves recipients of loans which they cannot repay.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
I wouldn't have bailed out the banks: I'd have let them fail. At least my position is logically and philosophically consistent.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
Read my comments properly before you respond in such an ignorant, ill-informed manner.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 The idea that, as you put it "Everyone in society is responsible for this mess" is pernicious propoganda. The banks' boards of directors bear far more responsibility than any average bank customer. It is they (the directors) who decide on the terms of their loans, as you indeed say "they lent out far too much money to far too many people". People may be forced into taking out loans as a result of low pay, unemployment, rising costs etc. factors largely beyond their control.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
Like I said, nobody forced the people to take out bank loans: this is the identity equation, each side is equal to the other. The banks could offer to lend a trillion, but if nobody is willing to borrow, they're stuck. I am on very low pay (less than £10,000 per year) and have never taken out a loan. I just do with so called luxuries like a car, mobile phone, Ipad etc. Nobody needs these things. I have never borrowed money and I don't have any debts as a result
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 OK so you never took out a loan. How is that relevant to this debate?
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
You said people were sometimes forced to take out loans: I provided an example of someone with very low income not needing too. Me.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 OK I understand you may have had a hard time financially yourself, and not borrowed money. But for those that do borrow it is not necessarily for selfish reasons or "instant gratification". Loans are often taken out before Christmas bcz parents want to see their kids have a good time, for example. Or people take out mortgages, then unexpectedly lose their jobs and can't repay. It doesn't seem fair to blame such individuals for the global financial meltdown.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
Allow me to clarify: I'm not against private borrowings, but I deplore the attempt of borrowers to lay the blame squarely at those who leant them the money. It is an abdication of responsibility, something for too prevalent in our national culture today, one completely inimical the world of our grandparents.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 Allow me to clarify: Responsibility for the global economic crisis does not lie equally with those who borrow to cover housing costs or daily living expenses on the one hand, and multi-millionaire bankers who have huge power and influence over national and global economic and political affairs on the other.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 Am I to take it, then, that you don't blame our grandparents' generation for the depression of the 1930s? Who would you blame for that particular crisis, given the many parallels with the contemporary situation?
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
The Federal Reserve and President Hoover... President Roosevelt then made it ten times worse.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
I hope you don't respond with the canard that President Hoover was a free market fundamentalist who slashed spending... I'm going to do a bit of shameless advertising for my very low traffic blog. This post explains everything.
If you can't be arsed to read the whole thing (I wouldn't blame you) paragraphs 2-5 are relevant to our little discussion. Enjoy, and if you comment, please be don't be harsh!
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
For some reason I can't post links so I'll send you a private message... damn my advertising strategy
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 Thanks, I will check it out.
NickOLarse999 2 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 It is not they who are revered as economic experts - it is the bankers.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
I cannot answer this as adequately as Keynes, so let me let him do my work for me:
"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist"
And Hayek:
“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 Impressive though it might be that you have read Keynes and Hayek, I fail to see the relevance of either quote to this argument.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 I did read your comments. I can only think that your readiness to accuse others for ignorance (i.e. apart from the personal attack, your claim that all socialists are "incredibly fucking ignorant) may be indicative of your own inability to grasp the reality of the situation. This is not masked by your use of cod-economic terminology - "if we represent this mathematically, it would be an identity equation".
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
Have you never heard of an identity equation? Your ignorance is no reason to question points.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 Wow you know what an identity equation is! This clearly makes you right on every point that you make.
NickOLarse999 3 weeks ago
Sigh, he ruined the show with his ignorance.
OctavianG2 3 weeks ago
@OctavianG2 Care to explain this?
Thesmitster 3 weeks ago
never heard of this guy before - but in a different life I would like to have his babies.
jonjuliecat 3 weeks ago
Someone talking sense on the BBC?? Can't have that!!
slideshowrod 3 weeks ago 3
The last great Socialist and he's in comedy...
DarthAzabrush 3 weeks ago 3
How refreshing.
bazzazcl 3 weeks ago
There's a head of steam building up against the corruption and tyranny
ClaireSapphyck 4 weeks ago 3
Well done Mark about time someone exposed the bullshit the tories and the right wing press are spouting.Yet again QT was biased Mark got little time to talk compared to everyone else on the panel the BBC is shitting itself about loosing the license fee.
lv4ev5 4 weeks ago 14
@lv4ev5 Yeah. The BBC is really full of right wing bias isn"t it? If it was they wouldn"t of let a left wing poser like Steel on there would they?
regvarney 3 weeks ago
@regvarney Yeah, the appearance one left winger on one show is enough to counter-act a TV company thats incredibly pro-government right now.
ThisIsWater7 3 weeks ago 10
@ThisIsWater7 Pro Tory? That"ll be the day!
regvarney 3 weeks ago
I earn just £9000 a year: why should my taxes be used to fund someone who earns more than £26,000 a year in benefits? If I were to earn that, I'd have to make £35,000 a year before tax. It isn't bullshit to want to expose the unfairness of it all.
Mark Steel was given 4 minutes to make his point; considerably more time than Ms Philips was given to state her support for the proposal. And it's 'losing' not 'loosing' the licence fee.
Bastiat90 3 weeks ago
@Bastiat90 your taxes wouldnt have to pay for those on benefits if those at the top paid their taxes. You pay your taxes so that if anything went wrong you have a safety net in this country, where as the directors don't pay a penny. does this not anger you? Maybe if they paid we wouldnt have people on benefits, its one part of a much wider problem
ryanthomaskendall 3 weeks ago
@lv4ev5 Funny enough, it only needs to be exposed to the rich, us poor who are being stolen from already know the ins and outs of what the government are doing but we don't have a voice! They won't let us question them and nobody is allowed to question on behalf of us so instead we have a guy who has "comedian" for a label specifically so nobody will take him seriously!!!
thejojoshabadoo 3 weeks ago
@lv4ev5 LOL Trust me the BBC is usually very biased to people like Mark, it was nice to see a change to a supposed 'unbiased' channel.
totalgod90210 2 weeks ago
Spot on.
minearehiddenrooms 4 weeks ago 3