Realistic Book of Mormon Evidences

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Good to see you can have your crazy interpretation of the BoM, but others are not allowed theirs on basic science. That sounds like Mormonism to me! Who is your quote from?

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian They will know the truth : ) The last ones I ran into didn't know a lot of stuff, but thankfully I’ll have a computer this time. I will.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "I’ll have a computer this time" What for? to show them arguments from biased sources?

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian How does agreeing on how large the supposed Nephite population was a scientific question as it’s all based on the BoM? DNA evidence just proves FAIR and your prophet’s assumptions where wrong and as you quote points out had to change to fit it. Other prominent anti-Mormons agree with me and it really just looks like he taking a swipe at them after they had to admit they were wrong for over a century. I can interpret the BoM the way it was supposed to be without FAIR's help.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 U don't understand the BOM.

" anti-Mormons agree with me " Dude Southerton is an evil intellectual anti-mormon. He is more challenging than you and most anti-mormons.

"How does agreeing on how large the supposed " No he said that if IF A SMALL GROUP OF ISRAELITES ENTERED SUCH A MASSIVE NATIVE POPULATION (SEVERAL MILLIONS) IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY HARD TO DETECT THEIR GENES. But he thinks thats a wrong intepretation of BOM, (becuase he dosen't understand the BOM)

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian That's your opinion, not a fact. Funny thing is you just sent a quote from him that say exactly what I've been saying limited geography doesn’t fit with BoM or the prophets, so your rant about this guy and me and him not agreeing is invalidated, you took the original quote you posted out of context. "But does such a scenario fit with what the Book of Mormon plainly states or what the prophets have taught for 175 years? Short answer. No! Long answer. Nooo!" You’re a joke!

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Do you remember what you said? you said, no matter how limited, some DNA would be found. Remember? So are you contradicting him?

He is wrong, you are wrong, you both don't understand the BOM or the Gospel. A limited geography fits the BOM and the church as no official position on the issue. Okay. and no I didn't contradict myself, the thing is that you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian He said it would be very hard, not impossible. He does not agree with you that if the BoM where true the limited geography theory would be correct. He believes that limited geography is BS and so the lack of DNA, archeological and cultural evidence proves the BoM is wrong, that's the crux of your problem. LOL Again that’s an opinion not a fact. You don't understand what I'm trying to say, hopefully the statement above clarifies.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "very hard, not impossible" Probably, but its yet to be found, just because we haven't, dosen't mean they didn't exists.

"limited geography theory would be correct" but thats what I believe the BOM teaches, and I have good reasons to assume a limited geography. Yes we don't agree on that, becuase he dosen't understand the BOM.

"lack of DNA" No, remember what I told you on one message I send you? Let me send it to you again.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Opinion, yes it does. Just out of curiosity when you finally accept limited geography is wrong what’s next? Have you ever heard of Occam’s razor?

Opinion, logical fallacy again for a college student you should know better. BYU?

Opinion, you sent so many that never helped your case so no. That's OK.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "limited geography is wrong what’s next" But thats what I see that the BOM is teaching, a limited geography. I guess you know more about the BOM than me.

"Opinion," Now I cannot state, that is what the BOM is teaching, becuase I am not an official church spokesman, but I see that, a limited geography is what the BOM really teaches. So are you expecting me to send you a Nat Geo article that says, "we comfirmed a nephite city" even Dawkins would become Mormon.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian It all comes down to interpretation, I have every right to interpret or think whatever I want without condemning your knowledge just your interpretation. Thankfully JS was never elected President and we don't live in a Mormon theocracy so I have that right.

Yes, but I won't hold my breath.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "I have every right to interpret " Yes you do, however you would never proved to me that the BOM is false. You would not prove that the BOM is false at all. Its better for you to say, "I don't belive in BOM becuase I haven't seen enough evidences, than to say, OH! I can prove the BOM to be false"

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Nowhere in my job description does it say I have to convince a brainwashed Mormon I know firsthand it is not easy. To me it has been proven false, don't put word in my mouth, you have a habit of it and its really stupid and disgusting. I never said that and for to try and put it in quotes is disgraceful.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Sorry, "never said that " yes but in my opinion, it would be better if you would have said that. "brainwashed Mormon " I am not brainwashed, you are brainwashed.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Thank you, to me there is absolutely no way in hell JS was a prophet or any of these people ever existed, critical thinking on my part has ruled this out. We know who brainwashed you, I was raised Catholic theirs didn't take, who supposedly brainwashed me into Atheism?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 was Francis Collins brainshed to Christianity? what about Paul Vitz? Were my two former atheist friends brainshed to Mormonism? One is more than 50 years old. Its not my fault that I was born in the true church. Anyways, many beliefs that had, and I grew up with, I dont' have anymore. "who supposedly brainwashed me into Atheism?" according to Paul Vitz? Now you were born as a Catholic, well you just had to get far from the truth for becoming atheist.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Did I ever say they where? No, I said you where. it’s quite possible some people are just sheep. “True church” that’s a good one. Cause you had to change them because FAIR had revise their argument once again or just because people naturally grow from they where kids? No, what do you think. Yeah Catholicism I can tell you first hands its BS just like Mormonism.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 No one cares that Christians used to believe that the earth was flat, and now you guys are making such big deals about DNA and the Book of Mormon. Well first get to understand the BOok of Mormon before making those arguments. I really don't see any erroneous origins of the Book of Mormon.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Historians do, I do a lot of people do. I've read it, but I don’t keep up to date on FAIR’s latest argument. You’ll like this some missionaries stopped by yesterday after meeting my brother. I wasn't here, but they left the BoM, D&C and PGP on our doorstep. They left a number too, where inviting them over for chat soon so if you know Elder Esplin or Black tell them to get ready, JK : ) Non-Mormons do as clear as day.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 They now the truth. Even when you tell them things they haven't heard about before, they won't give it much importance. Also, tell them Hi for me please.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian No unbiased research and the quotations I want fast and easy.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Okay I will send you something unbiased. Well to me, nothing that I send you is unbiased.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian You can try when you do it never helps your case, an unbiased source shouldn’t be hard to find if your right.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Now since you know it all, can you please tell me the answers to this questions?? Have you seen a String? Why we have the laws of the universe? What happen before the planck time? Whats outside the universe? Whats dark energy? Ohbyway, one atheist told me, " I won't get into criticizing your religion...I was a Christian for twenty years before I became an Atheist. At least you are willing to accept that evolution is a fact so you are one step ahead of many Christians."

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Continue.. I suppose unbiase to you, only has to be fair in your point of view. So what about you send me a atheist unbiased source?? or agnostic???

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Let me make this clear you have no scientific evidence to back up your case, I want you to go and find some from a respected source, but anytime you attempt this it ends up discrediting your argument further.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian I don't have any doctrine to defend so no. If you would like to see the research for evolution and everything else it’s out there you don't need me.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 " evolution and everything else " This universe allows evolution possible. But evolution is evidence for the existence of GOD. ""they estimate the evolution of the human genome are by the odds of this are somewhere between four to the 1 hundred eighty of power to the hundred then thousand power and they had four to the negative three hundred sixty of power to the hundred thousand" "So if evolution did occure, its literary a Miracle"

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian No you didn't an anti-Mormon and FAIR agreeing on a theological point has nothing to do with science it’s an interpretation of the BoM. If they where a small population sure it would be hard, but it would still be there somewhere and that’s not what the BoM says. How could it have been mistranslated if it was never really translated in the first place (and never existed, but we won't talk about that). Seer stone in a hat, how do you translate a book without ever opening it?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345"agreeing on a theological point has nothing to do with science "

No, they agreed on the science, they disagree on the LDS theology, of course the anti-mormon dosen't understand LDS theology, like you "that’s not what the BoM says" you have no idea what the BoM says, Many Book of Mormon readers, especially during the last sixty years, have read the Book of Mormon text as requiring a relatively small geographic area within the Americas.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian You posted so much and with so little clarity I missed what you where talking about, I disagree with him if he believes the small band did not multiply and spread over the continent like the BoM says. There is no reason I should go with his interpretation anymore than yours, remember I think for myself. I don't worship him, I don't even know who he is.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Do you have a PhD in Genetics? I agree with that evil anti-mormon on what he said, he is a scientist. Also should I belive you more, than LDS scientist? Dude, I am not even making appeal to authority, I am talking about Real scientist. LOL Don't you think their might be special circumstances with this DNA issue??

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian No there not ever going to be found they don't exist JS was a con man, I understand you have to believe because they tell you so, family, temple ceremony etc. That’s not how I look at it and thank God never will, people who use unbiased research, say you’re wrong and in fact it's laughable. The problem with limited geography is that is countered by the BoM and the prophets and no matter how limited some DNA, cultural or archeological evidence would be found.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 " is that is countered by the BoM and the prophets "

Why do you make religious arguments rather than scientific?? Now you know more than me about LDS prophets.

"no matter how limited some DNA, cultural or archeological evidence would be found"

but why should I bellieve you?? what about LDS scientists (not young earth creation science guys)?? Even an anti-mormon said the opposite, instead of scientific, he was making religious arguments against the church, like you.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 again I say, even anti-mormon Dr. Simon Southerton does not agree with you about the DNA and the limited geography issue. He instead was using religious arguments against the church, like you just did,

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 By the way, this anti-mormon, Simon Southerton is also a scientist. and you contradicted what he said. Thats sad, I think he is also an atheist.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian For some reason my posts aren’t showing up, so if this shows up we can continue through the messages, I'm tired of typing it twice. I know it's a hypothesis you have no evidence. Yeah, just keep telling yourself that. I point out again there is archeological or DNA evidence to support they even existed; much less wrote a very poorly written account of their history. You imply things then say I’m not implying that, it's a little frustrating just say what you mean.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "You imply things then say I’m not implying that" I was just saying that DNA wouldn't disproof that africans were here in the americas. DNA does not disproof the lamanites.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Yes, it does on both accounts you have absolutely no facts to support your beliefs and in fact all evidence discredits your argument.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Just becuase we haven't comfirmed a nephite city, does not mean it didn't exists. We mostlikely already found nephite cities, but its hard to comfirm them. Just becuase their is NO evidence of extra-terrestial life, does not mean their is no alien life. Yes their is extra-terrestial life. Now there are evidences for the BOM, but not proof.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian LOL! This all relies on a con man translating nonexistent plates with a seer stone in a hat so science, archeologists (non-LDS) and logic is pretty darn sure there’s nothing out there. Wow, you like to believe in a lot of things that have no proof, why am I even bothering trying to argue facts as it seems you care so little for them? There is actually much proof countering JS personally, and his poorly written and translated master works of the BoM and PGP claims.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Hey Nephites cities are yet to be discovered, or comfirmed. So how can a nonmormon be expecting to find a nephite city? if there is no Hard evidence in inscriptions that nephites existed. So I would agree that they are sure that nephites don't exists becuase, its true that their exitence hasn't been comfirmed archeologicaly. I am a Mormon, and I do believe that they existed, which they are yet to be comfirmed, but there are evidences for BOM.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 In case anyone from FAIR is unclear I will repeat what I wrote four years ago…“IF A SMALL GROUP OF ISRAELITES ENTERED SUCH A MASSIVE NATIVE POPULATION (SEVERAL MILLIONS) IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY HARD TO DETECT THEIR GENES.” Now that FAIR has finally conceded that American Indian DNA is essentially all derived from Asia, I also agree with them that the debate should be about the theology.

—Dr. Simon Southerton, "Finally, I agree with LDS scientists-apologists,"

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 DNA does not disproof lamanites either, but I am not saying that africans are lamanites, I am just giving an example. DNA does not disproof that the japanese were here.

[vids4chrome]

lol this stuff holds as much weight as that "tru nigga knowledge" where they dance around talking about crazy shit like "6 poppin 5 droppin" etc lol

Mormons are morons.

[TheSkepticChristian]

swimming pool

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

The Kinderhook Plates & the Pearl of Great Price, need I say more.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345

I doubt very much you know any more than to simply rattle off a couple names.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheBackyardProfessor Oh believe me I do, I scared the last missionaries out of their sacred underwear. Besides your use of circular logic in the video instead of re-butting my very simple argument to that point you chose to attack me, not something an academic who supposes to call themselves a “professor” would do.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 The Book of Mormon is the word of GOD.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian You Mormons are heavy on assumptions and light on proof and when I say light I mean absolutely devoid of it. Where exactly is Kolob?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "assumptions and light on proof "

So what proof are you looking for??

Its simple, just ask youself, what proofs do I see for the Bible??

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Is it just me or is it funny that the "TheSkepticchristian" has absolutely no skepticism? Hard factual proof of what JS said about Kolob, Native Americans, Mount Kimora, etc. I don't see a lot hence why I’m not a Christian, funny thing is despite its historical inaccuracies the new testament was written down by people close to Jesus and has some historical insights and on the other hand the BoM was written by a double murdering con man in the1900's.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "I don't see a lot hence why I’m not a Christian"

Oh I see, I though you were a religious anti-mormon, so I was just going to mess around with you.

Before we talk about evidence, how about we debate on this subject first: (Does GOD exists???) I say yes.

"Is it just me or is it funny that the "TheSkepticchristian" "

You have no Idea Man!

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Cont. Its hard to proof the BoM, one hypothesis,scholars have proposed areas to be BoM lands, however its hard to test those educated hypothesis because the inscriptions in the pre-classic Maya period are hard to decipher. We have decipher very little in the lands proposed by scholars and IN the time of the BoM. Now lets to go step by step, lets talk about this subject first, "Does God exists?" I say YES!! (If U debate me, u will b sorry 4 supposibly scaring those young men)

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian LOL No skepticism at all, I don't care if you believe in God I care about the BoM, D&C and PGP being complete crap. There are innumerable anachronisms in the BoM, it has been proven utterly false through archeological, sociological and biological research, and the same goes with the PGP and Kinderhook Plates. Nice try about the Mayans, 99.6% of Native American's ancestry traces back to Eurasia as we expect the other .4% dates from after Columbus.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "99.6% of Native American's ancestry traces back to Eurasia" Look this is a hypothesis answer, only about a group of 30 people (BoM people) got here to the americas, where there was a civilization, the pre-classic Mayas. Its like putting a drop of water into a swimming pole.

"4% dates from after Columbus." Thats not true, Clovis points not Asian origin. Also, Good reasons to believed that the Africans mixed with the Native americans. Does DNA disprove it??

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian really, so you subscribe to the limited geography theory? How do explain the passages in the BoM referring to the peoples spreading out creating large cities & mount Kimora in NY. Yes, actually it does go do some re-search bifurcated points developed independently in many areas. What else is there to this supposed evidence and how would it support your case as you suggest they came from the Middle East?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "creating large cities " probably to them large cities, but to us?

"mount Kimora in NY." oh wow, I expected more of you, You are prety ignorant about LDS, after all. (No offense)

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian They found large and small places that are in the Bible just for example, none from the BoM. Oh I’m sorry I misspelled the name of your fake historical site; if I'm so ignorant of FARM indoctrination please tell me how this is explained by the limited geography theory. Oh yeah no sending me knew BS Mormon crap or supposed evidence that still contradicts your theory till you answer a couple questions.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "none from the BoM" how do you know?

"FARM indoctrination please tell me how this is explained by the limited geography theory" The BOM logically requires a limited geography, the text itself. Scholars have believe in a limited geography, way before that silly DNA argument.

"you answer a couple questions."

oh sure, go ahead. Do you have any idea of how many people like you I have talk to?? even on the Dawkins Channel. LoL

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Present some evidence, oh right you can't do it. Then how do you explain Cumorah, 2 million dead? I quote from a the BoM and Mormon site "great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land. And they did travel to an exceeding great distance, (How far is exceeding?) insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers. (The Great Lakes and Finger Lakes of New York state.)" limited geography my ass

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 I think you would do a much better job in teaching science, than trying to attack something you don't even understand. "2 million dead? " U are talking about the Jaradites, and their destruction as a civilization. So after many years, many hundredes, thousands of years, it appears that they were just around 2 million Jaradites. Thats few to me, it dosen't have to cover a whole continent. In Mexico city there is about 18 million people. What about El Mirador population?

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian I think you would do good to read the book you’re defending, I just put a big long quote from book that completely contradicts your limited geography theory. It was discovered by a Mormon so that means what? We have found traces of populations with a lot less than Mexico citie or 2 million and none from the BoM.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "How far is exceeding" I don't know, ask them, you think it was many hundreds of miles???

You are complety ignoring other BOM scriptures bytheway. Go teach science instead!

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian if they got to New York I would have to say yes, how you argue with that JS supposedly found the plates there.

Please reference. Believe me I love how you have to admit you have been defeated on the DNA argument.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "f they got to New York I would have to say yes"

Man!!! you are simply so ignorant!! the BOM never says they went to NY, what was burried at cumorah were records, except the ones that Mormon gave to Moroni. Moroni then, was wandering around for many years, he went obviously to NY. What he burried in the hill of ny was BOm, logical that the NY hill is not the same hill that the BOM is talking about.U MAKE ME explain such easy things, and be a primary teacher!!!

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Its pretty obvious that’s what JS meant by using the name don't be ridicules, he was a liar and there is no archeological evidence so now you have to do all types of logical gymnastics take make your cult work. Mormon 6:2 "And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah , and there we could give them battle."

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "...and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni." Mormon 6:6 Those few plates were the Book of Mormon. The BOM never claims that the BOM was burried at the Cumorah. Now the NY hill was later called Cumorah, becuase it was assumed that it was the same hill. I think it was called cumorah by oliver cowdary. You don't understand the Book of Mormon.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Two battles took place on Mount Cumorah called site and the Books where buried on this supposedly different Mount Cumorah, I'm sorry but that is just ridicules you say it’s illogical to believe in one when it’s illogical to believe in either. No, it was JS not Cowdry. I imagine he never thought somebody might want to do an archeological dig.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Lisen, the BOM only talks about one Mt Cumorah, where batters happened, and were records were hidden except the BOM. Moroni took the BOM with him, and as he wondered around for many years, he could have just travled to NY. There He hidded the plates in a hill. Now a days, that hill were the BOM was found is called cumorrah. It was called Cumorrah, but not by the nephites. I think it was Oliver Cowdary that called that Hill, Cumorrah. Why is so hard to understand that??

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Your wrong it was named by your Prophet JS so you’re never going to convince me he didn't want his cult members believing they were the same. Since there has never been a dig how do you know there not the same? We could find Metal swords and shields LOL!!!!!!!

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "Your wrong it was named by your Prophet JS " I said I think, but if you are right, then now I am the ignorant now. Anyways if JS called that hill Cumorah, do you think I care? I see no difference if it was JS or Oliver Cowdary. Now its been a long time since I haven't look at this information, so let me double check if it was JS who called it Cumorah.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Who ever was the first one to called that Hill, Comarah, its logically incorrect. Its okay, now its called cumorah, that hill was known by the name comorah in JS time, "While we call the drumlin in New York "Hill Cumorah" based on a usage initiated early in Church history (probably by Oliver Cowdery or W. W. Phelps) that does not necessarily make the two hills the same" U were wrong, JS was not the first to called it Cumorah. The BOM is the WORD OF GOD.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian "Joseph Smith’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalls her young son Joseph referring to the place where the Book of Mormon plates were deposited, as “the hill of Cumorah,” meaning hill of the land Cumorah. Mother Smith’s preliminary manuscript indicates that the angel referred to the hill as “hill of CumorahThe New York location of the land and hill Cumorah is consistent with Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer’s account of an incident in which he, ..Continued

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Anways, yes when you are writting history about what happed in the past, the hill was already called Cumorah. But not neccesarly that JS was the first one to called that Hill Cumorah. Now for the rest of your claims, I will answers in the next one, Okay. See You are so easy to handle. Lets debate about something else instead. How about Theism vs Atheism???

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Joseph, and Oliver Cowdery were riding in a wagon to the Whitmer home in Fayette, New York. According to Whitmer, an aged heavyset man walked alongside the wagon. The man had a knapsack strapped over his back with something square in it. When David invited the man to ride he replied, “I am going across to the hill Cumorah.” Joseph Smith reportedly later told David Whitmer that they had seen one of the Nephite prophets."

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Lisen, yes JS called that Hill by the name of Cumorah, what I meant, is that I don't think he was the first one to call it by that name. "While we call the drumlin in New York "Hill Cumorah" based on a usage initiated early in Church history (probably by Oliver Cowdery or W. W. Phelps) that does not necessarily make the two hills the same." Now I am going to answer the rest of your claims

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Lisen I am going to sleep now, i will just send you the link about David Whitmer in a private message. Maybe @TheBackyardProfessor will answer your claims, if he wants to. He is too intelligent for you, he dosen't have the time to talk to people that are so ignorant about LDS, like you. So thats why you only get to talk to me. I am just 21 bytheway.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Don't care about your cult member. The "professors” answer to my point was a logical fallacy so please bring it on. I'm 24 and kicked your theological butt countless times so I understand why you’re quitting.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 I am surprise on what you tell me, really I am so impress, you just keep telling me pure ignorance. and you says fallacies, you don't udnerstand LDS or the BOok of Mormon.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian It’s called spell check, I have a hard time believing in your intelligence when you can't spell or use a computer correctly. Ignorance, compared to your unequivocal understanding? You Mormons really are egomaniacal. You haven't successfully countered one of my arguments, I understand it's frustrating but that’s just the way it is. Oh yeah JS was also a terrible writer, "it came to pass" almost 1,300 times you got to be kidding me.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 What are you talking about?? your arguments are just terrible, I could in detail respond to all your arguments. "it came to pass" whats that??? Are you aware that, that is evidence for the BOM. The phrase "it came to pass" has been decipher in Maya inscriptions, but guys like you will say that its just coincidence.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian that’s way to have stumbled and bumbled over every single one of them presenting web pages that are clearly biased with no facts and videos that counter your own argument. Your right what a mental giant you are. Show me this inscription; did it say it almost 1,300 times? JS was a terrible writer, hence Mark Twain describing the BoM as chloroform on paper.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian I don't know if the last one posted so I'll do it again and if I cover stuff twice forgive me. You admitted defeat on DNA, the location of Cumorah and other geography apparently as you tried to pawn me off on the "professor" con man. JS wrote the BoM and used the phrase almost 1,300 times, ten times more than the Bible. Mark Twain called it chloroform on paper; I’ll post his full quote as it is quite funny. Show me it, the unbiased research and how Mayans are Middle Eastern.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 "You admitted defeat on DNA" No, anyways, there are a lot of things that also need to be considered. "the location of Cumorah " the location of Cumorah is most likely in Meso-America,its probably Cerro Vigia, but it just a hypothesis. "ten times more than the Bible" Those weird nephites, and there writting system, and mentality. "Mayans are Middle Eastern." I didnt' say the Mayas were Middle eastern, fallacy! I said BOM people were AMONG the Mayas.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian Well you stopped discussing it and said quote you should stick to DNA and teach it. “Just a hypothesis” you didn't need to add that as everything Mormon geography is just a hypothesis as no evidence has ever been found to support your argument. Yeah the Nephites, just keep telling yourself that, I won’t even bother asking about how you translate gold plates in a hat with a seer stone. You made that implication if you’re going to make crazy assumptions be sure to clarify

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 I wouldn't say that their are no evidences, but rather there is no proof.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian For some reason my posts aren’t showing up, so if this shows up we can continue through the messages, I'm tired of typing this twice. I know it's a hypothesis you have no evidence. Yeah, just keep telling yourself that. I point out again there is archeological or DNA evidence to support they even existed; much less wrote a very poorly written account of their history. You imply things then say I’m not implying that, it's a little frustrating just say what you mean.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Under the limited geography model, a relatively small number of Lehites landed in the Americas. This small initial population eventually intermarried with other populations in the hemisphere. Over a period of 2600 years, any initial Lehite "signature" would be hopelessly 'swamped' by other peoples' genetic markers.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Just as a drop of red dye will not turn a whole swimming pool red (though the red is still "in" the swimming pool), a few Lehites added to a limited geography model's hemisphere of inhabitants will have little or no detectable genetic influence today, except by the greatest coincidence.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 Southerton an anti-mormon said LoL Hahahahah :"In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it would be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later"

[TheSkepticChristian]

@TheBackyardProfessor @MrQwertyqwerty12345 all the time makes ad hominem arguments about FAIR and FARMS, yet he hasen't show me a single argument from FAIR to be erroneous. He claims that its biased, and he even claims that a PhD mormon scientist is also biased. He says, "look at non-biased sources too" the fact that I've even studied our religion in encyclopedias, and in dictionaries of religion. he also said, "New rule no more FAIR articles, I won't look at them"

[MarcFuentos]

Has anyone bothered to mention the place where Ishmael was buried, which is the land of Nahom that was mentioned in 1st Nephi, which is an actual place not known in Joseph's Smith's time until the mid 1800s? How do we explain Joseph Smith knowing of the Land of Nahom before it was even discovered?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Yes, but you see this doesn't count. It's not Zarahemla. Now when Zarahemla is found, they shall yet again shift ground and say find Gimgimno, and then we will believe. When that is found they shall shift again, and yet again, and yet again.

[MarcFuentos]

The fact that Nahom is not Zarahemla is irrelevant. The fact that Nahom exists. Joseph Smith could not have known of its existence since it was not discovered until 1994. So, I disagree with your assessment that we need to prove Zarahemla because that position is illogical. The fact that Nahom was mentioned gives Joseph Smith great clout. In either case, it's a matter of faith.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I agree entirely with ya. I am sharing the logic of the critics with you and tweakin em in the process. We find Nahom, but that doesn't count... to them. When we finally find Zarahemla, that won't count either, even though they have screamed for it for 100 years.

[MarcFuentos]

I am so happy we agree. It goes to show that proof doesn't change minds. That's human nature for you. People will hold to their ideas until the bitter end. A hardness of heart. It's kind of sad, really.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@TheBackyardProfessor @MrQwertyqwerty12345 is an agnostic atheist, and he thought he knew it all, but he contradicted what an anti-mormon SCIENTIST said, thats prety sad. I had expected more of him, but he is just another ignorant guy I talk with. Also he thinks he knows more than me about the church, WOW. This guy as no idea of what he talks about, nor does he understand the Book of Mormon.

[MrQwertyqwerty12345]

@TheSkepticChristian You really had a little mental breakdown while I was out didn't you, keep to internet codes of conduct and post one at a time if you want to have an intelligent discussion. How did I contradict this anti-Mormon scientist I’ve never heard of? He can debate about whatever he wants, I can't? You are the one arguing about Asian ancestry of native peoples. I never said I stick to just hard or the social sciences just facts. I'm interested in cults that are why I watched the video

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MrQwertyqwerty12345 I just showed you that DNA does not disproof that BOM, just read my last 3 comments. As for your translation claims, the whole BOM words could have been misspelled when translated, the message is still the same, even in the original manuscripts. Most of it was translated in KJV language.

[TrueChurchLDS]

take your skank whore ass out of here.

[michaelsurman]

There are also plenty of examples of the construct state in the King James Bible. Which the critics posit as one of Joseph Smith's major sources.

As one of the few books he had access to, it would also have, undoubtedly, influenced his style immensely.

[michaelsurman]

Indeed, you actually betray the weakness of your argument when you quote the K.J Genesis!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

A 23 year old 3rd grade educated kid knows enough of Hebrew to pull this out of the Bible?! Riiiiiiiight. And then you have to understand that NONE of the witnesses saw ANY book with the Prophet while he translated and dictated the Book of Mormon. Do YOU know Hebrew? There are myriads of different kinds of Hebraisms in the BofM. I bet if I named them all YOU could NOT show me examples and use them within a narrative.

[michaelsurman]

I think that you either misunderstand something that I stated plainly or you're twisting my words to suit your own polemical bias. I never suggested Joseph Smith knew Hebrew in 1829. However, Smith evidently knew the King James or Authorised Version of the Bible, a translation which demonstrates each of the Hebraism you mention in great abundance. Anyone who wanted to imitate the style of the Authorised Version would demonstrate these same features. Indeed, many satirical pieces do.

[michaelsurman]

I'm disappointed not to have had a reply to this I must say.

Anyway, I must say your videos are a great introduction to Mormon scholarship. I'm really enjoying them. Do you know if the extracts that were put up by FAIR featuring Peterson, Tvedtes and yourself are going to be uploaded as a full video with more information?

[skyaglow]

you are right.. we are told to " feast upon them" that's why i got a kick out of it.

You're a good man!!

[skyaglow]

I like your reply comment at bottom of page...

about meat

Ah, then let the feasting begin. Good one!

I had to laugh at that! : )

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Sort of a smartie alec, but I am also serious. The Lord has given us an absolute smorgasbord with all these things, so truly, using our minds, spirits, and bodies, let the feasting begin! To the Glory of God, who happens to be rather Intelligent, yes?

[skyaglow]

And it came to Pass" occurs in the BofM 1,381 times.

The phrase is not unique to the BofM, the Bible utilizes the phrase or one of its derivatives, 526 times in the Old Testament and 87 times in the New Testament. This supports the fact that this phrase "and it came to pass" is Hebrew in origin and correlates with Nephi's statement, "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians."

(Schele 1987:26)

[skyaglow]

I love your enthusiasm it is contagious!

you're words are truth

simple and plain and easy to be understand by the simple and plain such as me...

thank you for sharing your insights

they are divine and most interesting!!

your teaching method is a divine gift from GOd

I can feel it and I thank youf or stepping outside of the box and sharing it with us all

you are blessed !

[mormons4truth]

So then, you offer no physical evidences?

Stop wordsmithing as it makes us as a church look even more stupid.

Remember what recent prophets have said? Stop looking for evidences, as they do not exist.

You are confusing the investigators that are told by the missionaries to rely solely on prayer.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

You are simply being silly.

[mormons4truth]

Apologist arguments are not for investigators, only long term members. Please take this out of public site as it will do more harm than good.

More harm, IMO, than hard core anti material.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Yes, well, everyone is welcome to their opinions. Why don't you do us all a favor and go ahead and put up the good stuff on your site, and let me handle the mud, the crud, and the beer. That shouldn't bother you too much should it?

[mormons4truth]

Problem is investigators can find your MEAT here on youtube....

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Ah, then let the feasting begin.

[CIRELUX]

is there a BOM on cd?? And I still dont think the BOM is real. But I let you make a case for it. bofor I came whit why I I dont think its true but good vid btw :) :)

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Well, what I think you meant to say is that you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true. It is certainly real, as we print millions of copies per year. You can get the Book of Mormon on CD-ROM from the official church website, I am sure. That's actually a good way to read it through. Good luck on your journey through it.

[StillSmallVoices]

Nobody can stop the truth!

Thanks for being a solider of truth Kerry!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Oh I don't know if I am much of a soldier, but I enjoy being a student......

[StillSmallVoices]

Thx for being a student of truth and a support of the soldiers in Iraq!

That better? GRIN!

[riversideharp]

All those that live the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Spirit of truth and love are soldiers to stand as an ensign to the world for mankind needs examples as Jesus Christ needed Father as an example as we need Jesus Christ as our example and we link to Christ with hand and heart to learn and teach truth so we all may be one as Jesus Christ is one with G_d our eternal Father.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

That's it in a perfect nutshell isn't it....... That's called keeping the focus clear, thanks!