Occupy the Private Federal Reserve starts this Friday!
Don't just protest wall street, protest the root of all of our financial problems for the last 100 years. Research the federal reserve act of 1913 and the fact that the thirteenth amendment to the constitution was never ratified into law. Woodrow Wilson said by signing the law he in effect doomed the future of this nation. Our entire financial system is based on this fraud.
Hey there! Have you tried the intellitus cash system (do a google search)? Ive heard some amazing things about it and my cousin made lots of money with it.
“If the requirements of the tax laws were to be classed as servitude, they would not be the kind of involuntary servitude referred to in the Thirteenth Amendment.”
Porth v. Brodrick, 214 F.2d 925, 926 (10th Cir. 1954).
“The specification, that the act violates the Thirteenth Amendment by imposing involuntary servitude upon an employer of domestic servants, seems to us far-fetched, indeed frivolous.”
Hey, check out my Ron Paul vs Lincoln video. If you don't believe in secession, then you believe in slavery, for you are for enslaving people to a government that they want no part of:
One constitutional amendment can only overpower another if it repeals the Amendment in question. The 16th Amendment sucks but we should repeal it not "re-imagine" it
people keeping all their money would empower the people. If we don't like what uncle slam's doing we boycott then to the stone age. oh what a nice power to have at the ready.
The courts have recognized that taxation is not the same as slavery.
“If the requirements of the tax laws were to be classed as servitude, they would not be the kind of involuntary servitude referred to in the Thirteenth Amendment.”
@juliaisafilmbuff123 Not sure what you mean, but I would say no? You work for your boss voluntarily, even if he/she makes you do things without pay to keep your job, it is still voluntary, you could just walk away. The government chases you, threatens you and ultimately robs or imprisons you if you say no and try to walk away.
our tax-money that our fascist leaders have now spent on war is now over ONE TRILLION DOLLARS. half of tax-dollars goes to fund the military industrial complex. We need to kick corporations out of govt. They are the ones who hold back cures for cancer and technology that would benefit us greatly
@iAMr3VOLution1 I used to read the budget every year. I quite often peruse the cbo.gov website. I imagine I'm fairly well informed on the budget. Defense was 23% of the Federal budget in 2008. (and more than 50% of income tax receipts, so you are spot on in that comment). I just disliked your original comment, because it is inaccurate.
I don't think paying income tax is as big a theft as the non-labor income capitalist bosses collect simply by renting out the means of production. Wage slavery existed long before the Fed and will continue to do so even if the Fed is gotten rid of. Look up what youtuber Mr1001Nights says about wage slavery and capitalist non-labor income. His videos are much better than Ron Paul's rants.
i m in vegas...a 21 yr journeyman whos job was given to mex nationals...our unions book was opened to let anyone buy thier card(i had to be reffered by an employer and go thru a 4 year aprenticeship)they got in ..elected mexi bus agents to make deals to pay under the table a portion of thier pay to project managers to work(amer wont do it).these are 40.00 an hour jobs that 'americans wont do'.lololol DC is full of traitors..they now deny me unemploy insurance i paid into for 35 years!REVOLUTION
@treon123456 Here also, the work here in the UK have been given to the Polish (Catholic's and we are Protestants),they have less skills, and are paid less, which brings our standards and wages down..Which is Engineered by Design to destroy our Protestant Nations... for our so-called leaders are Treasonous, and their Allegiance lies with Rome (Babylon / New World Order)....
The Polish people are are some of the most intelligent, ambitious, and hardest working people I have ever met. I've been there several times. I married one. I know what I'm talking about.
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Don't hate the people and their culture for attempting to make the lives of their families and their nation better.
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Hate instead the capitalist system and its propaganda that has turned you against the very people you should be in solidarity with ... all the working people everywhere.
@fczwartek I've worked with men (sub-contractors) that went over to Poland for work in the construction industry (steel fixers), and they came home (UK) after 2 weeks, having had their work boots (left in cabin) filled with shite !.They even had a note in their lodgings saying '' go home English ''. Your Quote; ''.The Polish people are are some of the most intelligent, ambitious, and hardest working people I have ever met ''.I could say that about any 3rd world migrant Worker..Continue..
@fczwartek Polish are ex-Communist Slaves !,and as ex slaves they work for slave wages (lower than the host nations people, therefore lowering the standard of living for the natives), work in slave conditions(work in 3 foot of waste water in the middle of winter),they never question authority !.They are a product (slaves)that the NWO wants us to become ! (i refer you to 1984 G.Orwell).We are Protestants (KJB) and the Poles are Catholic's(like our treasonous Government),allegiance lies with Rome
Poland is not the 3rd world country that you imagine it to be. It's advanced as the UK ... comparatively, Poland's only "shortcoming" is that it is not the sycophant lap-dog / sidekick of the USA ... which is exactly what the UK is.
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Furthermore Britain abandoned its "ally" Poland before, during, and after WW2 (for 50 years!) and left them to become slaves.
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You should worry more about Washington making policy for your country than Rome ... Rome? ... Really? That's a joke.
By the way .... the Polish people hated communism. One of the main reasons for the fall of communism was because the Polish people defied it, organized themselves and dared to protest against it!
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To say that they are ex-communist slaves who "never question authority" is an absolute lie and completely disgraceful. You should be thanking the Polish people for their role in ending totalitarian communism in Europe.
@fczwartek They are conditioned sheeple !..Whereas; i am a Protest-ant born free (of mind) and Independent (of thoughts)...Surfs are the way of the NWO (Rome)..Ps, I never claimed Poland is a 3rd world country, i'm saying you'll find any 3rd world migrant Worker intelligent, ambitious, and hardest working people YOU have ever met...The USofA is a Colony of the UK !, and the UK is owned by Rome (nwo) treaty of 1213...All roads lead to Rome (NWO)...Rome is the Whore of Babylon !...Peace.
@fczwartek '' You're a clown ... you're even below contempt. '' Your Ignorance is bliss Essentially !..Ps, Rome Conceived Multiculturalism (open boarders / lose of Sovereignty ) I have no time for Romist (EU/NWO) nor Trolls like you !.....
Before the 13th Amendment, there were plenty of other laws and precedents warning against the sort of slavery that fiat money and authoritarian income taxes promise. The problem is that too few people care what sort of anal probe they are getting provided that they are fat, happy and dumb. And if you have any complaints about it, you're either a kook or a terrorist. America has truly perfected the concept of despotic government.
That seems to me to be a very opportunistic way of interpreting the 13th Amendment. It's a bit of a stretch in logic. For that matter, why don't we say that it also prevents kids from having to listen to their parents EVER? Why don't we say that the 13th Amendment bans you from having to obey basically ANY law? After all, that's "involuntary servitude", no?
Don't get me wrong, I hate the income tax. But I really don't think this is the right way to go about trying to argue against it.
I don't think you'll find many tax experts, including libertarian ones, who'll say "Paul's got it!" on this one. Paul seems to forget the actual definition of the term "servitude." The traditional definition is forced labor or slavery, such as being a black slave or compulsory military service. If you ask me, there are much more convincing methods to getting people riled up and against the 16th Amendment than simply saying "the 13th Amendment makes it illegal."
@whoo689 But,is'nt taxes forced labor? If it takes me 5 hours to earn 100 dollars and if the government takes 100 dollars from me in taxes,have they not forced me to work 5 hours for nothing? What is a slave if not somebody forced to work for somebody else for nothing? Granted the government does'nt take 100% of our income,but only 40% or 50%,making us only 40% or 50% somebody else's property. We're better off than slaves in the old south,but neither are we completely our own masters either.
@whoo689 'After all, that's "involuntary servitude", no?'
Real law, as opposed to statute (voluntary, consensual 'law'), cannot compel an individual to perform, it can only forbid him for harming others.
But until we take back the actual soil of our nation (mortgaged to the banks to underwrite the bankruptcy of the FedGov) -- we are all living in someone elses house (land), and the Constitution doesn't apply.
@juliaisafilmbuff123 You are'nt forced to work for anybody. We are all independent business people who either choose to sell our time and labor to others or we can choose to set up our own shop and contract with others to purchase their time and labor. All are free actor,free unless the government meddles via subsidies,regulations (like the minimum wage law). Otherwise,all are free.
Yeah ... There's always the option of becoming destitute and watching your children die of malnutrition! And you know what ... if you can't pull yourself up by your own boot straps and a lil ol' bit of gumption ... well then that's your fault for not being born with a silver spoon.
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Forget about the fact that the banks and the capitalist captains of industry are robbing you for you labor and subsequent debt .....!
@fczwartek It is nature,not capitalism which necessitates our posession of material goods if we are both to survive & thrive. Now, there are only 2 ways of acquiring these goods. (1)We can force others to provide these things for us or (2)we can engage in voluntary trade with our fellow men. In other word agree to exchange something for something else. Governments & mafiosos use method #1 and free & honest people use method #2. All of politics are merely variations of these 2 options.
The capitalists acquired their wealth through theft, treachery, plunder, corruption, deception, extortion, fraud, duplicity, and butchery.
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A more accurate term for the "free market" would actually be the "extortionate plunder."
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One of the more destructive features of capitalism is that it is designed to indulge, accommodate, empower and pamper the tiny minority of rich elite from the masses of disenfranchised.
@fczwartek Under Capitalism,the only way you can acquire wealth is via voluntary trade( I give you this thing that you want in exchange for this thing that I want).You have it backwards. It is the only system that does not victimize anyone. Under Capitalism,no one gets to be a rich elitist--like Bill Gates, unless he sells the public something the public desires. Government,however,forcibly takes money from us all the time & spend it on things(Iraq,healthcare,etc.)which nobody wants.
"the only way you can acquire wealth is via voluntary trade."
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Capitalism is just another form and method of domination of the wealthy elite over everyone else ... Capitalist acquired their wealth through slavery and theft ... They are not paragons of virtue and morality.
@fczwartek I suspect that we have a disagreement over terms. I'm not taking about Corporatism,which is a systematic alliance between some businesses & government to suspress the free market. Ayn Rand,among others have described that perversion of capitalism.Marxist historian,Gabriel Kolko in his history,The Triumph of Conservatism showed how some businessmen used gov't regulations to protect themselves from competition. I'm against that. I favor laissez faire,the opposite of slavery & theft.
Why wouldn't capitalists try to use every advantage they could possible exploit to shield their ill-gotten wealth from the masses of disenfranchised and poor - including suppression of the "free market" and especially takeovers of potentially democratic institutions such as the state? Domination of these things is what capitalists do! ...not the exception or perversion .. but the fundamental essence.
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Since when was playing fair ever a characteristic of capitalism? Its not.
@fczwartek You use the term "ill gotten" & "capitalist" to cover all form of profit seeking. I have attempted to show you that there is a distinction between profit seeking via free trade & profit seeking via corporate collusion with government. The free marketplace is the greatest engine of human advancement ever devised. It is the source of our large middle class,technological innovation(cell phones,personal computers,etc). It is the source of the good life. We need more,not less capitalism.
The "free market" is responsible for practically none of the major technological advancements of the 20th century .... Actually the very things you mention - electronics and computers were not funded, researched or developed by the "free market." In fact they were subsidized by the state, by taxpayers ... for decades ... not the "free market."
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Socialize the risk, privatize the reward ... another form of thievery.
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What we need is more democracy and less capitalism.
@fczwartek The origins of technology is too big a subject to discuss here. But,let's look at one bit of tech,cell phones.The tech development had various origins,public & private. But,post war,Bell Labs was at the forefront. 2 Bell men Richard Frenkiel & Joel Engel dev the electronics. There are others responsible for the technological,but more important than the tech development,is who put low priced cell phones in virtually everyone's hands? The free market of couse.I can give other examples.
Bells Labs is a great example of a "private" research institution heavily funded by government subsidies. Government spending for "private" R&D is something like $80 billion per year .... How many billions has Bell Labs raked in over the decades?
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Certainly a lot.
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Point being .... the only reason this technology exists is because of government "interference" in the "free markets."
@fczwartek The 19th cen. was a period of great tech. innovation & very little gov't help with R&D. Here's a partial list of that century's inventions: internal combustion engine,light bulb,telephone,the locomotive,fiber optics,the machine gun,refridgerator,typewriter,plastic surgery,vacuum cleaner,motion picture camera,fountain pen,contact lenses,escalator,photography,dishwasher...I could go on. Other than defense, gov't should stay out of R&D. The private sector can do its own & do it better.
Would you believe that once upon a time people created things without a profit motive. People even created stuff to help improve society (those rotten collectivists!) and not necessarily to fatten their own wallets ...
Creation and invention are fundamental to human nature ... it certainly occurred long before the existence of capitalism ... and it will continue long after capitalism is finally dead (which will be a great day for humanity.)
@fczwartek I have no problem with free individual communist getting together, pooling their resources & operating together under those values so long as people like me can opt out. Freedom allows for a variety of life choices.But,why should'nt I be allowed to buy &/or sell what I have in order to make a profit? Why should'nt--if you remember the fable,the wise & hardworking ant not benefit from his virtues & why should'nt the shiftless grasshopper pay for his vice? Equal treatment is unfair.
Hardworking people absolutely should be properly compensated for their labor.
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In that fable the capitalists are the grasshoppers ... they produce nothing of value for society .. but none the less society is set up to indulge and pamper them (and the corollary of that - steal from people who actually work for a living.)
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The investor class sits by the pool and collects dividend checks, produces nothing of value, pays less taxes ... subsidized by the working classes.
@fczwartek The owner of the works is'nt any less a worker than the guy on the line. Both fiction(Ayn Rand's Hank Reardon) & life itself(Thomas Edison)indicates that the guy with the greatest stake in the shop is the one burning the night oil. But,let's take your guy by the pool. Why are workers today more productive than those 200 yrs ago? Physically he has'nt improved. He not stronger & faster. His greater productivity results from capital invested in labor enhancing devises. The pool guy.
You're right. Many capitalists and their servants in management do work hard. That is no justification for arranging society to serve them (the top 5%) at the expense of everyone else.
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Most of the technological advancements that have lead to the increased productivity of labor ... were subsidized by the state!
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By the way ... Ayn Rand? Really? Cuz her inner circle confidant and disciple Alan Greenspan did such a marvelous job running the economy for the last 25 years?
@fczwartek I'll have to do some research on the extent to which gov't has financed 20th &21th Cen. R&D,but,as I've said previously,19th Century's incredibly inventive age was the recipient of very little state R&D cash,so I doubt gov't is needed. Besides,it is'nt just a matter of who paid for the research,but of it's use & capitalism provides numerous goods & services at a relatively low price. As for Greenspan,if Rand believed in the afterlife,she would now be yelling at her former discipline.
I believe gvmnt subsidies for "private" industry R&D is something like $80 billion a year, here in the United States. And that's only a piece of the corporate welfare pie ... which to my understanding is something like $200 billion per year.
@fczwartek I'm a vegan. A few years ago the only place where vegan food could be found was in health food stores where the variety was limited & costly. But,due to a greater public concern for good health,a large variety of vegan food,at reasonable prices, became available in stores,not only in speciality stores,but in general food stores. The motivation for this improved service was,not generosity,but money. As long as force or fraud is'nt involved,selfish motives can serve others.
@sleedolfine15 Okay, but what about an institutional analysis of the situation you present? Our society is only "motivated by money" because our society revolves around money (something completely artificial). Capitalism and everything that comes out of it are not some law of nature. Capitalism didn't exist for most of human existence, but things like gift economies did.
@juliaisafilmbuff123 We are material creatures who need the things of this material world to survive & prosper. This is nature,not capitalism. Capitalism only decrees a particular method of acquiring material goods--voluntary trade rather than force. Money is only a convenient medium of exchange with an agreed upon value. Without money we'd have to rely on barter,a cumbersome method(Just how many eggs equal a movie ticket or how many lbs of ham would my boss pay me? What if I don't like ham?)
@sleedolfine15 Agreed !...Socialism is a Jewish experiment !..Commissioned by Lord jewish Rothschild (AKA the Bank of England and was conceived by jewish Karl Marx (who wrote the Communist manifesto) A means of Enslaving the masses by the few !Then we have Starlin ,Trotsky ,Lenin and 80% of bolshevik leaders were ALL JEWS ! ( Who murdered 10s of millions of Russia Christians ! )..
@Kitswain59 How is "corporatism" not capitalism? Is government favoritism of bigger corporations an example of the "vote with your dollar" that capitalists love to tote?
Corporatism is really nothing other than a metastasized form of capitalism.
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Capitalists wouldn't be doing their jobs if they failed to utilized every bit of leverage and advantage at their disposal, and that includes fully usurping the state, undermining democracy, freedom, and liberty, and building enormous criminal enterprises; the totalitarian institutions we call "corporations."
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Capitalism is a cancer .. a scourge. Corporatism is just one manifestation that that.
Corporations are just another instrument in the capitalists tool-box that allows them to exert control over practically every aspect of society while enriching themselves beyond nearly anyone's wildest imagination.
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What good capitalist would not use a tool like that at their disposal?
@fczwartek Dude, Corporatism is pretty much the polar opposite of capitalism. Now I just know you are talking out of your ass. Corporatism is highly influenced by government as corporations are favored and controlled by a central government. Under capitalism, corporations are not favored by government, they are left alone by them.
It is incredible that so many people have thumbed up your stupid comments, you are all clueless.
....Well considering that there's no such thing as a "free market" and there never has been, what people commonly refer to as the "free market" would be more accurately described as the extortionate plunder ... leave the dogma behind and you'll figure it out.
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So yes, I'm serious. But I'm not the one who believes in the fantastical non-existent sky fairy magic known as the "free market." Are you serious?
@fczwartek The market is not free we haven't had a free market since the early 19th century. The money powers took control in 1865 and things have been steadily getting worse financially ever since. Republicans have always been thieves and murderers. Ron Paul is the only one I support because he only rallies under that party to get his message out.
It's interesting that you chose 1865 as the year the "free market" ended. Know what else ended in 1865? Slavery.
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You are mistaken to believe that a "free market" existed in this country before 1865. How could a "free market" exist in a place that permits human slavery?
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It's a nice sentiment to think of the early days of this country as a great time of liberty and freedom, however that sentiment has no basis in reality.
@fczwartek No it didn't technically it ended in 1876 and it is still legal for anything the Federal Government deems a crime. It is also legal if you are under voluntary servitude aka work for a boss.
The 13th amendment pretty explicitly outlawed slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime ... and that was in 1865.
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Although you could certainly argue that certain types of involuntary servitude persisted for many years, and certainly semi-voluntary servitude like -work for a boss or watch your children starve to death, exist today. People have argued that a military draft is a form of involuntary servitude ... I absolutely agree.
@fczwartek Big business won the country then and they want everyone to be a wage slave to the rich minority of corporate owners. This is why it is so hard to compete with Walmart or any other major corporation. The regulations in place make sure it is next to impossible. It costs millions of dollars in NYC to buy a taxi license and start your own taxi company.
What prudent capitalist wouldn't invest their money to "influence" lawmakers to create rules that fatten their own bottom line? Think of it as the "free market" of making laws.
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But occasionally the little people use the force of democracy to create rules and regulations that will benefit them (i.e. the vast majority of the population.) Such as child labor laws, workplace safety regs, the right to unionize, environmental standards, the 40 hr work week, minimum wage .. ect ect.
Regulation of business is not inherently bad ... the only other option is to have no regulations at all and prostrate ourselves before the altar of the mystical and non-existent "free market" and hope that it will judiciously sort everything out for us.
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I'm an atheist ... I have no time for sky fairies and "free-market" dogma.
But you believe in Government dogma that a handful of men can magically do something better than the rest of society. You fail to understand what makes the market free as well. As long as anyone can come into the market unhindered it is free. A minority of men forcing business to be conducted in a certain way is wrong. You either believe in freedom or you don't. The market was free until 1865. The republicans have always been the party of big business. A little regulation always becomes a lot.
How can markets supposedly be "free" when people are not? How can a market be "free" when human beings are regarded as property? That's completely ridiculous to say that there was a "free market" before 1865.
"as long as anyone can come to the market unhindered it is free" ... that was absolutely not the case before 1865 ... or ever! .
There is no such thing as a "free market" ... and there never has been.
@fczwartek There was we are all property for 40 hours a week to a boss and all the time to our central state now. The fact that five million people weren't free has nothing to do with the market. That's a stupid argument if cars were people would it affect the freedom of the market? no. Freeing the slaves by empowering the central government to overrule us is enslaving everyone. I'm not telling you or anyone else what to believe it's a fact the market isn't free and it was in antibellum times.
This is beyond sad ... I should know that trying to communicate with a severely debilitated individual is a waste of time.
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"slavery had nothing to do with the market." wrong ... human beings were considered property and treated as commodities. The market perpetuated slavery.
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"if cars were people..." Whut? Cars are not people. WTF kind of analogy is that?
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"freeing the slaves enslaved everyone." lol yeah .. freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.
@fczwartek Speak for yourself I'm trying to be nice why do you want to instigate people? You want someone to kill you? You're probably about 13 and can't think for yourself but c'mon man treating people like shit is gonna make them treat you like shit. You want me to go into the fundamentals of societal structure? I'm not going to waste my time on a message board. If you can't respect my freedom and label anyone different from you as mentally debilitated then you are a sad case indeed.
'You want someone to kill you" ... nice threat? lol! If my political posts are enough to drive you into a murderous rage then seriously, you need to immediately go get your head checked.
@fczwartek When you vehemently attack someone this is what you want. It's common sense. You either respect people or they remove you. You may get out of it with just a brawl but if you keep at it somebody will die. That's life buddy. Of course a person with your level of maturity thinks Mom and Dad will just resolve everything forever. You're real with your family and friends but you better be prepared to back yourself up with strangers. Only cowards attack people here.
You're boring me to death with the tough-guy talk already. I don't really give a shit that you're a primal brute. Congratulations! So what?
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You're like a goddamn neanderthal telling people that if they don't think the way you like, or speak the way you want them to you're gonna "remove" them. Jesus Christ! You can't even take a little constructive criticism? You feel a little insecure when someone tells you your political ideology is bullshit? Grow some thicker skin!
@fczwartek We are all enslaved right now to a system we didn't vote for. I don't care how many states ratified our constitution and forced the income tax on us It is still illegal as far as I am concerned and if you read the constitution it will become clear to you aswell. Not one cent of income tax goes back to Americans it goes striaght to the FED. wich is a private banking company Thats Illegal !!!! We are all born into debt by design = indentured servitude.
Comparing our current situation to the plight of chattel slaves is a bit over the top don't you think? No, we're not slaves ... we're more like semi-voluntary indentured servants. If you don't like your life situation you can change it. Slaves can't do that.
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I pretty much agree with you about the Fed .. it probably should be abolished. I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that taxation is illegal tho.
@fczwartek I guess I can wave my magic wand and change my life situation just like that ! Are you deranged ?
We as a whole country are in a situation this isn't some kind of singleton type event or isolated event .We are being taken to the fucking cleaners what are you smoking ? We are are fucked if we don't pull together and back the abolishment of the Fed and the income tax. Our country needs a revolution desperately !!!
You could move to Africa and live like a tribesman or a somali pirate if you wanted to. Or move to some small island in Polynesia where the girls wear nothing but tiny grass skirts. The only thing that's stopping you is .... you.
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Yeah this country is plenty messed up. Yeah the top 5% of the wealthy elite are screwing the rest of us ...hard. And yeah a non violent revolution probably is necessary to make things better. ..... But that doesn't mean you're a slave!
Anyway ... nothing is accomplished by magic wand waving. There's no question that wall street, the banks, the international corporations, the capitalists and their cronies in DC (both parties) are extorting and stealing trillions from the american public ... and just outright plundering the rest of the world.
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But the truth is ... we have more freedom and opportunity than most people in the history of the world ever had. It's just a matter of utilizing that and bringing it to bear.
@fczwartek You do not even understand what freedom is. A free market is one in which the state isn't involved at all. Freedom = no force. You can look in the dictionary. The federal government had no jurisdiction in the states period before 1865 when it took our freedom by force from all of them. Civil war = US Federal Government vs The States. Read about Lincolns democratic opposition and the real civil war up north.
Welcome to planet Earth where force is the basis of all civilizations that have ever existed. Sorry to break the bad news to you. Even in a libertarian wet-dream paradise force would be used to compel people to comply with whatever private contracts they are obligated to.
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Still fighting the civil war, eh? You still cling to the perverse notion that America was free-er when human beings were held in bondage as chattel slaves? Truly disturbing ... absolutely disgusting.
@fczwartek Fuck you. If you were in the room you'd be on the floor. Closed minded fools like you bring us all down. You are not God and your position isn't divine. It's ignorant. Treat people like people. Of course force is the basis for societies. It's how nations are protected. But within the nation force is not a benefit it tears it apart. All Americans understood that. That's common sense. Families don't fight each other. That is what a nation is.
lol ... you can spare me the internet tough guy routine. I'm sure you're very macho and all that ... but resorting to empty threats of violence when someone refutes your argument point by point ... that's just classless. There's no need to act like a goon. You can do better.
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I suggest you re-think your world view and political ideology. Take it beyond mindless repetition of empty platitudes.
@fczwartek You are not a real atheist, you worship your state. And just like creationists it's due to a lack of education as to how societies form and how a state actually functions/what it is.
No .. I can't consider myself an anarchist because I don't really want the state to be dismantled. At least not yet. I think the state is a powerful tool that at least has the potential to be brought under the control of the will of the people ... through democratic means.
@fczwartek "There's always the option of becoming destitute and watching your children die of malnutrition!"
Really? because historically, unemployed people starve in capitalist countries, right? Never mind that the biggest famines happened in planned societies. Even during the great depression, people were going hungry because the government burned crops and killed livestock to "help the farmers". Not because of the free market. Without government interference, food would have been affordable
@fczwartek Robbing you of your labor lol? Wow you can't make that propaganda up. Do you have like a Michael Moore's handbook for combatting the capitalist? I love your two options, being destitute or become a wage slave. Do you really think there are no other options? Shall we force the rich capitalists to pay us more? That will only drive the prices up and inflate the dollar, Shall we demand they give us their money? then who is the robber? Shall we demand they provide us better jobs?
@fczwartek I got news for you buddy, we live in the same world. The American is getting whatever deal they have agreed to. No one has a gun to their head and is making them work. I don't understand the bite the hand the feeds mentality. The American worker has a boss, if they want to work for that boss then there is a contractual agreement that must take place. If they don't like it they can leave! Or they can go get more training, more schooling, and make themselves worth more money.
I guess I don't understand the "bite the hand that feeds" mentality either. Why exactly do the elite capitalist investor class and their apologists insist on raping the same people they derive (i.e. steal/plunder) their wealth from?
A. because they have arranged society so they can
B. because their insatiable greed cannot be quenched
C. because they will never willingly relinquish their wealth or power
@fczwartek So are you not going to reply to anything else I said? Who are these Mega elite rich capital elitists? My employer is a middle class guy who owns a few businesses. In fact I don't know anyone who works for mega rich elitist. I can walk out on my job, I can go start a business if I want to, It's my choice. I think you would like Cuba. You should see if they'll take you. They make sure workers are all treated equally. How are the rich plundering wealth from the poor?
I'd go to Cuba to check out their vintage fleet of 1950s automobiles. It's hard to make a functioning economy when you've been punitively embargoed by the biggest economic force in the world for 60 years.
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People can get rich, people can be middle class here in America. But they're not in charge. The elite aristocracy of plutocrats are running the show.
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Cuba make the mistake of trying to throw the bastards out, and 6 decades later theyre still paying for it.
@fczwartek So what do you suggest? Shall we force run to Bill Gates house with torches and pitch forks and demand he pays workers more and all the while he'd better keep up the performance and ingenuity or else!?
I would certainly support efforts that encouraged BG to pay his workers more, especially those in the 3rd world. And efforts in general that encouraged capitalists to stop treating human beings, their lives and liveliehoods as nothing more than commodities. .
Why shouldn't working people bring their power to bear? And you derisively characterize that power as "torches or pitchforks", but what you really mean is solidarity. Nice euphamism/red herring.
Occupy the Private Federal Reserve starts this Friday!
Don't just protest wall street, protest the root of all of our financial problems for the last 100 years. Research the federal reserve act of 1913 and the fact that the thirteenth amendment to the constitution was never ratified into law. Woodrow Wilson said by signing the law he in effect doomed the future of this nation. Our entire financial system is based on this fraud.
Drumvain 4 months ago
Hey there! Have you tried the intellitus cash system (do a google search)? Ive heard some amazing things about it and my cousin made lots of money with it.
alonabalonaable 5 months ago
So the 16th amendment violates the 13th? Does the 21st violate the 18th?
etzel33 9 months ago
HaHa the ending was funny
GPCPolitics 9 months ago
Yet more reasons to get this ignorant guy out of office.
RetSquid 1 year ago
“If the requirements of the tax laws were to be classed as servitude, they would not be the kind of involuntary servitude referred to in the Thirteenth Amendment.”
Porth v. Brodrick, 214 F.2d 925, 926 (10th Cir. 1954).
“The specification, that the act violates the Thirteenth Amendment by imposing involuntary servitude upon an employer of domestic servants, seems to us far-fetched, indeed frivolous.”
Abney v. Campbell
RetSquid 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hey, check out my Ron Paul vs Lincoln video. If you don't believe in secession, then you believe in slavery, for you are for enslaving people to a government that they want no part of:
youtube.com/watch?v=oiH_XnqnyHU
ErikLiberty 1 year ago
One constitutional amendment can only overpower another if it repeals the Amendment in question. The 16th Amendment sucks but we should repeal it not "re-imagine" it
LordAgonis 1 year ago
people keeping all their money would empower the people. If we don't like what uncle slam's doing we boycott then to the stone age. oh what a nice power to have at the ready.
uturniaphobic 1 year ago
The courts have recognized that taxation is not the same as slavery.
“If the requirements of the tax laws were to be classed as servitude, they would not be the kind of involuntary servitude referred to in the Thirteenth Amendment.”
Porth v. Brodrick
RetSquid 1 year ago
well they're all ready protesting in india, if we don't get a break we won't be able to live!!
isawanangel2 1 year ago
the truth...
losthorizonsdotcom
larjerr 1 year ago
The 13th Amendment outlawed the income tax and the 16th brought it back. Actually re: the 13th, Toto, we aren't in New Hampshire anymore.
newdarnaccount 1 year ago
RON PAUL 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AStarSpangledGirl 1 year ago
Comment removed
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
@juliaisafilmbuff123 Not sure what you mean, but I would say no? You work for your boss voluntarily, even if he/she makes you do things without pay to keep your job, it is still voluntary, you could just walk away. The government chases you, threatens you and ultimately robs or imprisons you if you say no and try to walk away.
Hashishin13 1 year ago
Ron Paul FTW.
He's quite possibly one of the smartest people alive. =)
Forgoten214 1 year ago 4
our tax-money that our fascist leaders have now spent on war is now over ONE TRILLION DOLLARS. half of tax-dollars goes to fund the military industrial complex. We need to kick corporations out of govt. They are the ones who hold back cures for cancer and technology that would benefit us greatly
iAMr3VOLution1 1 year ago
@iAMr3VOLution1 Half of tax dollars? Lies.
Aryaba 1 year ago
@Aryaba haha well to be more accurate i should say more than half of INCOME TAX goes to fund military.. do your research there buddy .
iAMr3VOLution1 1 year ago
@iAMr3VOLution1 I used to read the budget every year. I quite often peruse the cbo.gov website. I imagine I'm fairly well informed on the budget. Defense was 23% of the Federal budget in 2008. (and more than 50% of income tax receipts, so you are spot on in that comment). I just disliked your original comment, because it is inaccurate.
Aryaba 1 year ago
I don't think paying income tax is as big a theft as the non-labor income capitalist bosses collect simply by renting out the means of production. Wage slavery existed long before the Fed and will continue to do so even if the Fed is gotten rid of. Look up what youtuber Mr1001Nights says about wage slavery and capitalist non-labor income. His videos are much better than Ron Paul's rants.
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
i m in vegas...a 21 yr journeyman whos job was given to mex nationals...our unions book was opened to let anyone buy thier card(i had to be reffered by an employer and go thru a 4 year aprenticeship)they got in ..elected mexi bus agents to make deals to pay under the table a portion of thier pay to project managers to work(amer wont do it).these are 40.00 an hour jobs that 'americans wont do'.lololol DC is full of traitors..they now deny me unemploy insurance i paid into for 35 years!REVOLUTION
treon123456 1 year ago 2
@treon123456 Here also, the work here in the UK have been given to the Polish (Catholic's and we are Protestants),they have less skills, and are paid less, which brings our standards and wages down..Which is Engineered by Design to destroy our Protestant Nations... for our so-called leaders are Treasonous, and their Allegiance lies with Rome (Babylon / New World Order)....
freedombiteback 1 year ago
@freedombiteback
The Polish people are are some of the most intelligent, ambitious, and hardest working people I have ever met. I've been there several times. I married one. I know what I'm talking about.
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Don't hate the people and their culture for attempting to make the lives of their families and their nation better.
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Hate instead the capitalist system and its propaganda that has turned you against the very people you should be in solidarity with ... all the working people everywhere.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek I've worked with men (sub-contractors) that went over to Poland for work in the construction industry (steel fixers), and they came home (UK) after 2 weeks, having had their work boots (left in cabin) filled with shite !.They even had a note in their lodgings saying '' go home English ''. Your Quote; ''.The Polish people are are some of the most intelligent, ambitious, and hardest working people I have ever met ''.I could say that about any 3rd world migrant Worker..Continue..
freedombiteback 1 year ago
@fczwartek Polish are ex-Communist Slaves !,and as ex slaves they work for slave wages (lower than the host nations people, therefore lowering the standard of living for the natives), work in slave conditions(work in 3 foot of waste water in the middle of winter),they never question authority !.They are a product (slaves)that the NWO wants us to become ! (i refer you to 1984 G.Orwell).We are Protestants (KJB) and the Poles are Catholic's(like our treasonous Government),allegiance lies with Rome
freedombiteback 1 year ago
@freedombiteback
Poland is not the 3rd world country that you imagine it to be. It's advanced as the UK ... comparatively, Poland's only "shortcoming" is that it is not the sycophant lap-dog / sidekick of the USA ... which is exactly what the UK is.
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Furthermore Britain abandoned its "ally" Poland before, during, and after WW2 (for 50 years!) and left them to become slaves.
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You should worry more about Washington making policy for your country than Rome ... Rome? ... Really? That's a joke.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@freedombiteback
By the way .... the Polish people hated communism. One of the main reasons for the fall of communism was because the Polish people defied it, organized themselves and dared to protest against it!
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To say that they are ex-communist slaves who "never question authority" is an absolute lie and completely disgraceful. You should be thanking the Polish people for their role in ending totalitarian communism in Europe.
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You're an agent of deceit.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek They are conditioned sheeple !..Whereas; i am a Protest-ant born free (of mind) and Independent (of thoughts)...Surfs are the way of the NWO (Rome)..Ps, I never claimed Poland is a 3rd world country, i'm saying you'll find any 3rd world migrant Worker intelligent, ambitious, and hardest working people YOU have ever met...The USofA is a Colony of the UK !, and the UK is owned by Rome (nwo) treaty of 1213...All roads lead to Rome (NWO)...Rome is the Whore of Babylon !...Peace.
freedombiteback 1 year ago
@freedombiteback
"The Polish people are conditioned sheeple..."
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You're a clown ... you're even below contempt.
fczwartek 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@fczwartek '' You're a clown ... you're even below contempt. '' Your Ignorance is bliss Essentially !..Ps, Rome Conceived Multiculturalism (open boarders / lose of Sovereignty ) I have no time for Romist (EU/NWO) nor Trolls like you !.....
freedombiteback 1 year ago
Before the 13th Amendment, there were plenty of other laws and precedents warning against the sort of slavery that fiat money and authoritarian income taxes promise. The problem is that too few people care what sort of anal probe they are getting provided that they are fat, happy and dumb. And if you have any complaints about it, you're either a kook or a terrorist. America has truly perfected the concept of despotic government.
hellsunicorn 1 year ago
That seems to me to be a very opportunistic way of interpreting the 13th Amendment. It's a bit of a stretch in logic. For that matter, why don't we say that it also prevents kids from having to listen to their parents EVER? Why don't we say that the 13th Amendment bans you from having to obey basically ANY law? After all, that's "involuntary servitude", no?
Don't get me wrong, I hate the income tax. But I really don't think this is the right way to go about trying to argue against it.
whoo689 1 year ago
I don't think you'll find many tax experts, including libertarian ones, who'll say "Paul's got it!" on this one. Paul seems to forget the actual definition of the term "servitude." The traditional definition is forced labor or slavery, such as being a black slave or compulsory military service. If you ask me, there are much more convincing methods to getting people riled up and against the 16th Amendment than simply saying "the 13th Amendment makes it illegal."
whoo689 1 year ago 2
@whoo689 But,is'nt taxes forced labor? If it takes me 5 hours to earn 100 dollars and if the government takes 100 dollars from me in taxes,have they not forced me to work 5 hours for nothing? What is a slave if not somebody forced to work for somebody else for nothing? Granted the government does'nt take 100% of our income,but only 40% or 50%,making us only 40% or 50% somebody else's property. We're better off than slaves in the old south,but neither are we completely our own masters either.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago 3
@whoo689 The tax code says its Voluntary..
Slavery whether direct or indirect is still slavery.
Theres only 3 ways to get something.. You Trade for it, its gifted to you, or it is stolen by force. Which one do you think the gov does.
Rshen11 1 year ago
@whoo689 'After all, that's "involuntary servitude", no?'
Real law, as opposed to statute (voluntary, consensual 'law'), cannot compel an individual to perform, it can only forbid him for harming others.
But until we take back the actual soil of our nation (mortgaged to the banks to underwrite the bankruptcy of the FedGov) -- we are all living in someone elses house (land), and the Constitution doesn't apply.
mindprism 1 year ago
Thats good!
crypter27 1 year ago
Sure the 13th "bans" involuntary servitude... but try telling that to an illiterate empire of a government.
Weapon01 1 year ago
@Weapon01 Is the "work for a boss or starve" threat of wage slavery/capitalism covered in the 13th amendment as well?
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
@juliaisafilmbuff123 It probably should... but one problem at a time. Starting by getting the feds back in their little box where they belong.
Weapon01 1 year ago
@juliaisafilmbuff123 You are'nt forced to work for anybody. We are all independent business people who either choose to sell our time and labor to others or we can choose to set up our own shop and contract with others to purchase their time and labor. All are free actor,free unless the government meddles via subsidies,regulations (like the minimum wage law). Otherwise,all are free.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
"you aren't forced to work for anybody..."
Yeah ... There's always the option of becoming destitute and watching your children die of malnutrition! And you know what ... if you can't pull yourself up by your own boot straps and a lil ol' bit of gumption ... well then that's your fault for not being born with a silver spoon.
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Forget about the fact that the banks and the capitalist captains of industry are robbing you for you labor and subsequent debt .....!
fczwartek 1 year ago 25
@fczwartek It is nature,not capitalism which necessitates our posession of material goods if we are both to survive & thrive. Now, there are only 2 ways of acquiring these goods. (1)We can force others to provide these things for us or (2)we can engage in voluntary trade with our fellow men. In other word agree to exchange something for something else. Governments & mafiosos use method #1 and free & honest people use method #2. All of politics are merely variations of these 2 options.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
The capitalists acquired their wealth through theft, treachery, plunder, corruption, deception, extortion, fraud, duplicity, and butchery.
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A more accurate term for the "free market" would actually be the "extortionate plunder."
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One of the more destructive features of capitalism is that it is designed to indulge, accommodate, empower and pamper the tiny minority of rich elite from the masses of disenfranchised.
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And at that it has been wildly successful.
fczwartek 1 year ago 11
@fczwartek Under Capitalism,the only way you can acquire wealth is via voluntary trade( I give you this thing that you want in exchange for this thing that I want).You have it backwards. It is the only system that does not victimize anyone. Under Capitalism,no one gets to be a rich elitist--like Bill Gates, unless he sells the public something the public desires. Government,however,forcibly takes money from us all the time & spend it on things(Iraq,healthcare,etc.)which nobody wants.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
"the only way you can acquire wealth is via voluntary trade."
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Capitalism is just another form and method of domination of the wealthy elite over everyone else ... Capitalist acquired their wealth through slavery and theft ... They are not paragons of virtue and morality.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek I suspect that we have a disagreement over terms. I'm not taking about Corporatism,which is a systematic alliance between some businesses & government to suspress the free market. Ayn Rand,among others have described that perversion of capitalism.Marxist historian,Gabriel Kolko in his history,The Triumph of Conservatism showed how some businessmen used gov't regulations to protect themselves from competition. I'm against that. I favor laissez faire,the opposite of slavery & theft.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
Why wouldn't capitalists try to use every advantage they could possible exploit to shield their ill-gotten wealth from the masses of disenfranchised and poor - including suppression of the "free market" and especially takeovers of potentially democratic institutions such as the state? Domination of these things is what capitalists do! ...not the exception or perversion .. but the fundamental essence.
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Since when was playing fair ever a characteristic of capitalism? Its not.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek You use the term "ill gotten" & "capitalist" to cover all form of profit seeking. I have attempted to show you that there is a distinction between profit seeking via free trade & profit seeking via corporate collusion with government. The free marketplace is the greatest engine of human advancement ever devised. It is the source of our large middle class,technological innovation(cell phones,personal computers,etc). It is the source of the good life. We need more,not less capitalism.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
The "free market" is responsible for practically none of the major technological advancements of the 20th century .... Actually the very things you mention - electronics and computers were not funded, researched or developed by the "free market." In fact they were subsidized by the state, by taxpayers ... for decades ... not the "free market."
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Socialize the risk, privatize the reward ... another form of thievery.
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What we need is more democracy and less capitalism.
fczwartek 1 year ago 5
@fczwartek The origins of technology is too big a subject to discuss here. But,let's look at one bit of tech,cell phones.The tech development had various origins,public & private. But,post war,Bell Labs was at the forefront. 2 Bell men Richard Frenkiel & Joel Engel dev the electronics. There are others responsible for the technological,but more important than the tech development,is who put low priced cell phones in virtually everyone's hands? The free market of couse.I can give other examples.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
Bells Labs is a great example of a "private" research institution heavily funded by government subsidies. Government spending for "private" R&D is something like $80 billion per year .... How many billions has Bell Labs raked in over the decades?
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Certainly a lot.
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Point being .... the only reason this technology exists is because of government "interference" in the "free markets."
fczwartek 1 year ago 4
@fczwartek The 19th cen. was a period of great tech. innovation & very little gov't help with R&D. Here's a partial list of that century's inventions: internal combustion engine,light bulb,telephone,the locomotive,fiber optics,the machine gun,refridgerator,typewriter,plastic surgery,vacuum cleaner,motion picture camera,fountain pen,contact lenses,escalator,photography,dishwasher...I could go on. Other than defense, gov't should stay out of R&D. The private sector can do its own & do it better.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
Would you believe that once upon a time people created things without a profit motive. People even created stuff to help improve society (those rotten collectivists!) and not necessarily to fatten their own wallets ...
Creation and invention are fundamental to human nature ... it certainly occurred long before the existence of capitalism ... and it will continue long after capitalism is finally dead (which will be a great day for humanity.)
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek I have no problem with free individual communist getting together, pooling their resources & operating together under those values so long as people like me can opt out. Freedom allows for a variety of life choices.But,why should'nt I be allowed to buy &/or sell what I have in order to make a profit? Why should'nt--if you remember the fable,the wise & hardworking ant not benefit from his virtues & why should'nt the shiftless grasshopper pay for his vice? Equal treatment is unfair.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
Hardworking people absolutely should be properly compensated for their labor.
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In that fable the capitalists are the grasshoppers ... they produce nothing of value for society .. but none the less society is set up to indulge and pamper them (and the corollary of that - steal from people who actually work for a living.)
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The investor class sits by the pool and collects dividend checks, produces nothing of value, pays less taxes ... subsidized by the working classes.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek The owner of the works is'nt any less a worker than the guy on the line. Both fiction(Ayn Rand's Hank Reardon) & life itself(Thomas Edison)indicates that the guy with the greatest stake in the shop is the one burning the night oil. But,let's take your guy by the pool. Why are workers today more productive than those 200 yrs ago? Physically he has'nt improved. He not stronger & faster. His greater productivity results from capital invested in labor enhancing devises. The pool guy.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
You're right. Many capitalists and their servants in management do work hard. That is no justification for arranging society to serve them (the top 5%) at the expense of everyone else.
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Most of the technological advancements that have lead to the increased productivity of labor ... were subsidized by the state!
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By the way ... Ayn Rand? Really? Cuz her inner circle confidant and disciple Alan Greenspan did such a marvelous job running the economy for the last 25 years?
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek I'll have to do some research on the extent to which gov't has financed 20th &21th Cen. R&D,but,as I've said previously,19th Century's incredibly inventive age was the recipient of very little state R&D cash,so I doubt gov't is needed. Besides,it is'nt just a matter of who paid for the research,but of it's use & capitalism provides numerous goods & services at a relatively low price. As for Greenspan,if Rand believed in the afterlife,she would now be yelling at her former discipline.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15
I believe gvmnt subsidies for "private" industry R&D is something like $80 billion a year, here in the United States. And that's only a piece of the corporate welfare pie ... which to my understanding is something like $200 billion per year.
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fczwartek 1 year ago 6
@fczwartek I'm a vegan. A few years ago the only place where vegan food could be found was in health food stores where the variety was limited & costly. But,due to a greater public concern for good health,a large variety of vegan food,at reasonable prices, became available in stores,not only in speciality stores,but in general food stores. The motivation for this improved service was,not generosity,but money. As long as force or fraud is'nt involved,selfish motives can serve others.
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
@sleedolfine15 Okay, but what about an institutional analysis of the situation you present? Our society is only "motivated by money" because our society revolves around money (something completely artificial). Capitalism and everything that comes out of it are not some law of nature. Capitalism didn't exist for most of human existence, but things like gift economies did.
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
@juliaisafilmbuff123 We are material creatures who need the things of this material world to survive & prosper. This is nature,not capitalism. Capitalism only decrees a particular method of acquiring material goods--voluntary trade rather than force. Money is only a convenient medium of exchange with an agreed upon value. Without money we'd have to rely on barter,a cumbersome method(Just how many eggs equal a movie ticket or how many lbs of ham would my boss pay me? What if I don't like ham?)
sleedolfine15 1 year ago
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@sleedolfine15 Agreed !...Socialism is a Jewish experiment !..Commissioned by Lord jewish Rothschild (AKA the Bank of England and was conceived by jewish Karl Marx (who wrote the Communist manifesto) A means of Enslaving the masses by the few !Then we have Starlin ,Trotsky ,Lenin and 80% of bolshevik leaders were ALL JEWS ! ( Who murdered 10s of millions of Russia Christians ! )..
freedombiteback 1 year ago
@fczwartek It isn't capitalism you're speaking of, it's corporatism.
Kitswain59 1 year ago
@Kitswain59 How is "corporatism" not capitalism? Is government favoritism of bigger corporations an example of the "vote with your dollar" that capitalists love to tote?
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
watch?v=7XUnXrdWEuM
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
@juliaisafilmbuff123 under capitalism, government does not favor corporations. Mussolini was NOT a capitalist. GTFO
Elasaltaculos 1 year ago
@Kitswain59
Corporatism is really nothing other than a metastasized form of capitalism.
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Capitalists wouldn't be doing their jobs if they failed to utilized every bit of leverage and advantage at their disposal, and that includes fully usurping the state, undermining democracy, freedom, and liberty, and building enormous criminal enterprises; the totalitarian institutions we call "corporations."
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Capitalism is a cancer .. a scourge. Corporatism is just one manifestation that that.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek I don't agree. Another word for it is Crony Capitalism.
Kitswain59 1 year ago
@Kitswain59
Corporations are just another instrument in the capitalists tool-box that allows them to exert control over practically every aspect of society while enriching themselves beyond nearly anyone's wildest imagination.
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What good capitalist would not use a tool like that at their disposal?
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek Dude, Corporatism is pretty much the polar opposite of capitalism. Now I just know you are talking out of your ass. Corporatism is highly influenced by government as corporations are favored and controlled by a central government. Under capitalism, corporations are not favored by government, they are left alone by them.
It is incredible that so many people have thumbed up your stupid comments, you are all clueless.
Elasaltaculos 1 year ago
@Elasaltaculos
Why wouldn't a capitalist use every tool at his advantage ... including gvmnt and corporations?
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Because he's ideologically dead set against it? Yeah ... sorry to rain on your parade but the only ideology a capitalist has is "make more money."
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fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek What? are you serious? how does the free market extort?
Elasaltaculos 1 year ago
@Elasaltaculos
....Well considering that there's no such thing as a "free market" and there never has been, what people commonly refer to as the "free market" would be more accurately described as the extortionate plunder ... leave the dogma behind and you'll figure it out.
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So yes, I'm serious. But I'm not the one who believes in the fantastical non-existent sky fairy magic known as the "free market." Are you serious?
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek The market is not free we haven't had a free market since the early 19th century. The money powers took control in 1865 and things have been steadily getting worse financially ever since. Republicans have always been thieves and murderers. Ron Paul is the only one I support because he only rallies under that party to get his message out.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
It's interesting that you chose 1865 as the year the "free market" ended. Know what else ended in 1865? Slavery.
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You are mistaken to believe that a "free market" existed in this country before 1865. How could a "free market" exist in a place that permits human slavery?
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It's a nice sentiment to think of the early days of this country as a great time of liberty and freedom, however that sentiment has no basis in reality.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek No it didn't technically it ended in 1876 and it is still legal for anything the Federal Government deems a crime. It is also legal if you are under voluntary servitude aka work for a boss.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
The 13th amendment pretty explicitly outlawed slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime ... and that was in 1865.
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Although you could certainly argue that certain types of involuntary servitude persisted for many years, and certainly semi-voluntary servitude like -work for a boss or watch your children starve to death, exist today. People have argued that a military draft is a form of involuntary servitude ... I absolutely agree.
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fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek Big business won the country then and they want everyone to be a wage slave to the rich minority of corporate owners. This is why it is so hard to compete with Walmart or any other major corporation. The regulations in place make sure it is next to impossible. It costs millions of dollars in NYC to buy a taxi license and start your own taxi company.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
What prudent capitalist wouldn't invest their money to "influence" lawmakers to create rules that fatten their own bottom line? Think of it as the "free market" of making laws.
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But occasionally the little people use the force of democracy to create rules and regulations that will benefit them (i.e. the vast majority of the population.) Such as child labor laws, workplace safety regs, the right to unionize, environmental standards, the 40 hr work week, minimum wage .. ect ect.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
Regulation of business is not inherently bad ... the only other option is to have no regulations at all and prostrate ourselves before the altar of the mystical and non-existent "free market" and hope that it will judiciously sort everything out for us.
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I'm an atheist ... I have no time for sky fairies and "free-market" dogma.
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fczwartek 1 year ago
But you believe in Government dogma that a handful of men can magically do something better than the rest of society. You fail to understand what makes the market free as well. As long as anyone can come into the market unhindered it is free. A minority of men forcing business to be conducted in a certain way is wrong. You either believe in freedom or you don't. The market was free until 1865. The republicans have always been the party of big business. A little regulation always becomes a lot.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
Thank you for telling me what I believe.
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How can markets supposedly be "free" when people are not? How can a market be "free" when human beings are regarded as property? That's completely ridiculous to say that there was a "free market" before 1865.
"as long as anyone can come to the market unhindered it is free" ... that was absolutely not the case before 1865 ... or ever! .
There is no such thing as a "free market" ... and there never has been.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek There was we are all property for 40 hours a week to a boss and all the time to our central state now. The fact that five million people weren't free has nothing to do with the market. That's a stupid argument if cars were people would it affect the freedom of the market? no. Freeing the slaves by empowering the central government to overrule us is enslaving everyone. I'm not telling you or anyone else what to believe it's a fact the market isn't free and it was in antibellum times.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
This is beyond sad ... I should know that trying to communicate with a severely debilitated individual is a waste of time.
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"slavery had nothing to do with the market." wrong ... human beings were considered property and treated as commodities. The market perpetuated slavery.
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"if cars were people..." Whut? Cars are not people. WTF kind of analogy is that?
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"freeing the slaves enslaved everyone." lol yeah .. freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek Speak for yourself I'm trying to be nice why do you want to instigate people? You want someone to kill you? You're probably about 13 and can't think for yourself but c'mon man treating people like shit is gonna make them treat you like shit. You want me to go into the fundamentals of societal structure? I'm not going to waste my time on a message board. If you can't respect my freedom and label anyone different from you as mentally debilitated then you are a sad case indeed.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
'You want someone to kill you" ... nice threat? lol! If my political posts are enough to drive you into a murderous rage then seriously, you need to immediately go get your head checked.
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You're incoherent.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek When you vehemently attack someone this is what you want. It's common sense. You either respect people or they remove you. You may get out of it with just a brawl but if you keep at it somebody will die. That's life buddy. Of course a person with your level of maturity thinks Mom and Dad will just resolve everything forever. You're real with your family and friends but you better be prepared to back yourself up with strangers. Only cowards attack people here.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
You're boring me to death with the tough-guy talk already. I don't really give a shit that you're a primal brute. Congratulations! So what?
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You're like a goddamn neanderthal telling people that if they don't think the way you like, or speak the way you want them to you're gonna "remove" them. Jesus Christ! You can't even take a little constructive criticism? You feel a little insecure when someone tells you your political ideology is bullshit? Grow some thicker skin!
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek We are all enslaved right now to a system we didn't vote for. I don't care how many states ratified our constitution and forced the income tax on us It is still illegal as far as I am concerned and if you read the constitution it will become clear to you aswell. Not one cent of income tax goes back to Americans it goes striaght to the FED. wich is a private banking company Thats Illegal !!!! We are all born into debt by design = indentured servitude.
JHK1976 11 months ago
@JHK1976
Comparing our current situation to the plight of chattel slaves is a bit over the top don't you think? No, we're not slaves ... we're more like semi-voluntary indentured servants. If you don't like your life situation you can change it. Slaves can't do that.
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I pretty much agree with you about the Fed .. it probably should be abolished. I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that taxation is illegal tho.
fczwartek 11 months ago
@fczwartek I guess I can wave my magic wand and change my life situation just like that ! Are you deranged ?
We as a whole country are in a situation this isn't some kind of singleton type event or isolated event .We are being taken to the fucking cleaners what are you smoking ? We are are fucked if we don't pull together and back the abolishment of the Fed and the income tax. Our country needs a revolution desperately !!!
JHK1976 11 months ago
@JHK1976
You could move to Africa and live like a tribesman or a somali pirate if you wanted to. Or move to some small island in Polynesia where the girls wear nothing but tiny grass skirts. The only thing that's stopping you is .... you.
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Yeah this country is plenty messed up. Yeah the top 5% of the wealthy elite are screwing the rest of us ...hard. And yeah a non violent revolution probably is necessary to make things better. ..... But that doesn't mean you're a slave!
fczwartek 11 months ago
@JHK1976
Anyway ... nothing is accomplished by magic wand waving. There's no question that wall street, the banks, the international corporations, the capitalists and their cronies in DC (both parties) are extorting and stealing trillions from the american public ... and just outright plundering the rest of the world.
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But the truth is ... we have more freedom and opportunity than most people in the history of the world ever had. It's just a matter of utilizing that and bringing it to bear.
fczwartek 11 months ago
@fczwartek You do not even understand what freedom is. A free market is one in which the state isn't involved at all. Freedom = no force. You can look in the dictionary. The federal government had no jurisdiction in the states period before 1865 when it took our freedom by force from all of them. Civil war = US Federal Government vs The States. Read about Lincolns democratic opposition and the real civil war up north.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
Welcome to planet Earth where force is the basis of all civilizations that have ever existed. Sorry to break the bad news to you. Even in a libertarian wet-dream paradise force would be used to compel people to comply with whatever private contracts they are obligated to.
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Still fighting the civil war, eh? You still cling to the perverse notion that America was free-er when human beings were held in bondage as chattel slaves? Truly disturbing ... absolutely disgusting.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek Fuck you. If you were in the room you'd be on the floor. Closed minded fools like you bring us all down. You are not God and your position isn't divine. It's ignorant. Treat people like people. Of course force is the basis for societies. It's how nations are protected. But within the nation force is not a benefit it tears it apart. All Americans understood that. That's common sense. Families don't fight each other. That is what a nation is.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@Luigi84289
lol ... you can spare me the internet tough guy routine. I'm sure you're very macho and all that ... but resorting to empty threats of violence when someone refutes your argument point by point ... that's just classless. There's no need to act like a goon. You can do better.
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I suggest you re-think your world view and political ideology. Take it beyond mindless repetition of empty platitudes.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek You are not a real atheist, you worship your state. And just like creationists it's due to a lack of education as to how societies form and how a state actually functions/what it is.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@fczwartek Are you an anarcho-syndicalist, fcwartek?
I agree with everything you say.
juliaisafilmbuff123 1 year ago
@juliaisafilmbuff123
No .. I can't consider myself an anarchist because I don't really want the state to be dismantled. At least not yet. I think the state is a powerful tool that at least has the potential to be brought under the control of the will of the people ... through democratic means.
fczwartek 1 year ago
@fczwartek "There's always the option of becoming destitute and watching your children die of malnutrition!"
Really? because historically, unemployed people starve in capitalist countries, right? Never mind that the biggest famines happened in planned societies. Even during the great depression, people were going hungry because the government burned crops and killed livestock to "help the farmers". Not because of the free market. Without government interference, food would have been affordable
Elasaltaculos 1 year ago
@fczwartek Robbing you of your labor lol? Wow you can't make that propaganda up. Do you have like a Michael Moore's handbook for combatting the capitalist? I love your two options, being destitute or become a wage slave. Do you really think there are no other options? Shall we force the rich capitalists to pay us more? That will only drive the prices up and inflate the dollar, Shall we demand they give us their money? then who is the robber? Shall we demand they provide us better jobs?
Jreedlin 9 months ago
@Jreedlin
So in your world the american worker is getting a fair deal?
fczwartek 9 months ago
@fczwartek I got news for you buddy, we live in the same world. The American is getting whatever deal they have agreed to. No one has a gun to their head and is making them work. I don't understand the bite the hand the feeds mentality. The American worker has a boss, if they want to work for that boss then there is a contractual agreement that must take place. If they don't like it they can leave! Or they can go get more training, more schooling, and make themselves worth more money.
Jreedlin 9 months ago
@Jreedlin
I guess I don't understand the "bite the hand that feeds" mentality either. Why exactly do the elite capitalist investor class and their apologists insist on raping the same people they derive (i.e. steal/plunder) their wealth from?
A. because they have arranged society so they can
B. because their insatiable greed cannot be quenched
C. because they will never willingly relinquish their wealth or power
D. all of the above
fczwartek 9 months ago
@fczwartek So are you not going to reply to anything else I said? Who are these Mega elite rich capital elitists? My employer is a middle class guy who owns a few businesses. In fact I don't know anyone who works for mega rich elitist. I can walk out on my job, I can go start a business if I want to, It's my choice. I think you would like Cuba. You should see if they'll take you. They make sure workers are all treated equally. How are the rich plundering wealth from the poor?
Jreedlin 9 months ago
@Jreedlin
I'd go to Cuba to check out their vintage fleet of 1950s automobiles. It's hard to make a functioning economy when you've been punitively embargoed by the biggest economic force in the world for 60 years.
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People can get rich, people can be middle class here in America. But they're not in charge. The elite aristocracy of plutocrats are running the show.
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Cuba make the mistake of trying to throw the bastards out, and 6 decades later theyre still paying for it.
fczwartek 9 months ago
@fczwartek So what do you suggest? Shall we force run to Bill Gates house with torches and pitch forks and demand he pays workers more and all the while he'd better keep up the performance and ingenuity or else!?
Jreedlin 9 months ago
@Jreedlin
I would certainly support efforts that encouraged BG to pay his workers more, especially those in the 3rd world. And efforts in general that encouraged capitalists to stop treating human beings, their lives and liveliehoods as nothing more than commodities. .
Why shouldn't working people bring their power to bear? And you derisively characterize that power as "torches or pitchforks", but what you really mean is solidarity. Nice euphamism/red herring.
fczwartek 9 months ago
@fczwartek , America hardly has any industry left,, wanna know why??
JaxxBat 5 months ago
!!!
TellEvery1 1 year ago