John Piper - TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints 1of3

[jmmanley]

Also, I want to make it clear that Catholics are typically mistaken about the nature of the disagreements between protestants. There are not "thousands" of denominations, there are not "thousands" of different beliefs. In my experience in talking with protestants and in going to various churches, the people/churches that have the widest disagreement are those that make the least effort to take the Bible seriously.

[Link0126]

@jmmanley There are as many Protestant interpretations of Christianity as there are Protestant churches. The closet thing to a unified denomination is the Anglicans. Visit your local Baptist church. Then visit another one. I guarantee that they will differ GREATLY in their teachings/beliefs. Also, most Protestant churches get to pick and choose who their "pastor"/"preacher"/"minister" is. And, if he says something that the congregation doesn't like, they can just fire him, even if he's right!

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 ...much in the same way that a unified institutional church can fire or excommunicate members and priests if they don't approve of what he believes, even if he's right!

[staphy82]

Joy to the world!

[Link0126]

Funny how different people can read the same text and walk away with such different ideas. Thousands of denominations all look to the Bible as their final word but have vastly different explanations. How can we really know who to trust? Put your trust in the apostolic faith that the Catholic Church has taught for almost 2000 years. No one believed in TULIP until the 16th century. An pure invention of man.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 Sounds like a good idea. Which Catholic Church should we trust, then? Post-Vatican II? Sedevacantists? Conclavists? It's just hard when so many different Catholics can look at the apostolic faith that they've had for 2000 years and come up with so many different explanations. How can we really know who to trust?

[Link0126]

@jmmanley And between the schismatics you mention and the Church there's not any doctrinal disagreement. They pretty much just have a problem with the changes of the Mass and authority of the Pope. Which is a problem, of course, but that's nothing compared to the rabid and serious disagreement among protestants on core doctrinal issues of the faith. The sedes would agree with Catholics on the nature of all the sacraments, Mary, the Saints, purgatory, the importance of works in salvation etc..

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 It is my understanding, from reading Catholic apologetic material (not read very much), that Catholics generally perceive Protestantism to be far more divided than it is. But the bulk of Protestants who make serious attempts to understand the Bible generally agree on the basic doctrines, especially those found in the early creeds.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 I feel like saying that there is "rabid" disagreement among protestants is like saying that there is "rabid" disagreement among Catholics. Yes, there are many "practicing" Catholics whose beliefs don't really reflect the teaching of the Catholic church, just as there are many protestants whose beliefs don't really reflect the teaching of serious protestants.

[Link0126]

@jmmanley "serious protestants" what does that mean though? We can objectively determine what the CC teaches but how do you conclude objectively what makes a "serious protestant"? As far as I can tell protestants agree on the trinity and faith alone. Baptism is out, communion is out, divorce, abortion, women preachers, homosexuality, TULIP, etc... And I'm not even talking about individual protestants, I'm talking about the official teaching of the protestant churches.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 Let me put it this way: Just because a persons calls himself a Catholic doesn't mean he believes what the CC teaches, therefore his beliefs aren't necessarily a good representation of the CC. Similarly, just because a Protestant says he believes in "only the Bible" doesn't mean he really believes what the Bible teaches, and therefore his beliefs aren't necessarily a good representation of the Bible.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 So if you wanted to know what the CC or the Bible says, you would not ask any random Catholic or Protestant, you'd try to find a "Serious" Catholic or Protestant. Are there objective ways of telling who is "serious"? Not really. The difference is that an "unserious" protestant can become the leader of his own denomination if he wants to and create a group of people who believe likewise, but an "unserious" Catholic cannot.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 I think the difference is largely in the perception. There seems to be just as much variety in the Catholic church, but because it exists as one denomination with an official set of beliefs, it appears far more unified than protestantism, which has all the same variety but lacks the institutional unity and doctrine. Ultimately, trusting any particular church denomination (Catholic, Anglican, etc) has all the same problems as trying to trust "the Bible alone."

[Link0126]

@jmmanley The main problem with Bible alone is that there is no accountability and each person is bound only by their own conscience. Catholics can choose to follow the Church's teaching or not but they can't write it off quite so easily. The Church can rule on modern day issues like stem cell research and make absolutely clear the immorality of contraception while the Bible alone cannot. Heresies can officially be determined, disagreements actually get settled. The Bible alone cannot do that.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 The problem is not really any of these things. The problem is one of faith: where do we ultimately place our faith? Protestants say they can do so directly in God and his word, Catholics can only do so through the Church. So yes the RCC can rule on moral issues and settle disagreements, but only on the basis of their own authority (just like Protestants). This creates a culture where we are encouraged to believe and trust the Church for answers rather than God himself

[Link0126]

@jmmanley How does someone know how to follow God? Thousands of protestant denominations have different and conflicting ideas. Some are fine with gay marriage, others not. Some say baptism is necessary, others do not. Some make exceptions for abortions, others have different exceptions or none at all. So how can you know? Jesus never told anyone to write anything down, instead he started a Church that he promised to guide into all truth. Hence, we look to the Church: "the pillar and ground..."

[polopowers1]

God cannot leave corruption and call us holy and blameless.Christ satisfied God He ,Christ cannot become unsatisfactory.

[christsaves1212]

The bible says He who began a good work in you will finish it, It also says if any man be in Christ He is a new creation, all things are made new. If perseverance of the saints is a heresy, you believe God's saving power is not strong enough to keep a man or woman from turning from Him

[djemil5]

THis is powerful!!!!

[illbehonest]

Great sermon. Amen