God doesn't need anyone to back up His existence. Only fools and haters doubt the existence of the Almighty God. As little children, we know there is a God. It is when people grow up and want to take over God's role that people want to get rid of him with crazy arguments that the universe was created by Nothing and that man came from monkies.
For someone who thought he was so bright, Hitchens continued to just "not get it". He attacked bad Christians to make a point, when Frank or any other Christian would have readlily agree with him. Yes, mankind is evil. Our religion says that, we know it! Therefore, the need for Christ. Christians do bad things. They are not God. The only difference is that Christians know they need God's forgiveness and help. We accept the gift. Hitchens targeted atheists as his audience. He was crafty.
Yet another agent of darkness. He has gone to join the Father of Lies in the pit. He now knows how he was used by Satan. He is now in eternal separation from God. It is a shame that he had all the facts and chose to ignore them. Now he knows. You God-haters who are going to send me mails with curse words will end up where Hitchens is too. Turn to Christ before it is too late. No fuzzy, feel-good news from me. This is a serious matter.
Now I understand where Hitchens, gets his bad ideas about God.He mentions the Catholics, that has to be one of the worst religions around. The catholic church is reffered to in the bible as the whore of babylon for a reason.Not to mention the dozen of fake churches out there making the real christians look bad.Matthew 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
@Heteblixem If that was the case I would wear or carry with me a rosary, and would kneel and pray to statues and call a cahtolic priest "Father." My bible says not to do any of those things.Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,'For you have one father and he is in heaven.
@Ratacon2004 - If you are going to quote scripture & use it as your guiding light don't forget all the "righteous" commands in Deuteronomy (i.e. chap 13 v6) If your very own brother, or you son or your wife secretly entices you to worship other gods . . .Show him no pity . . . Stone him to death." Don't forget to stone your son when he is rebellious & will not obey you (Deut 21 v8) & so on. If you followed the bible to the letter you would killing allot of people in the name of god.
@Heteblixem Not 100% sure where you got that from but that is not located in anywhere in my bible. Im guessing that must be a muslim bible. If im not mistaken the 10 ten commandments number 6 says "Though Shall Not Kill."Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
@Ratacon2004 He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17
This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
@Heteblixem Yeah but that is different then what you said before. You said "Show him no pity . . . Stone him to death." Don't forget to stone your son when he is rebellious ." And it doesn't say that in the bible. And Jesus Spoke In Parables you really think he stoned someone? Name me one person he stoned with his disciples.The bible would contradict itself when it says very clearly "Thou Shall Not Kill."This is why people get stoned to this day. they dont know how to interpret the bible.
@Ratacon2004- Interpreted means spinning, that means if the bible says something that you find embarrassing you interpreted so it no longer means that embarrassing any more
@Heteblixem You cannot put a spin on the bible to make something sound better.You do that then you are lying and not preaching correctly.Jesus said,“I speak in parables so they won't understand.”Mark 4:10-13 says,“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?”
@Ratacon2004 - Let us take the words of your saviour, rather than rely upon any euphemistic metaphors, "...where there is great wailing and gnashing of teeth".
You really have got to love someone who can design such a place for his children, unless jesus was at the dentist when he said this.
@Heteblixem Theirs a reason why he spoke in parable.He did that on purpose to seperate sinners/christians from real christians. Only people that commit to God will get the understanding of what he meant when he spoke in parables. An example: And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." He doesn't mean you act inmature and start to play with toys like a child.Children dont do evil acts only adult do them.
@Heteblixem Another example in the bible: When they kept on questioning him "Jesus", he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
@Ratacon2004 Another example in the bible: And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters. -- Deuteronomy 28:53 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. -- Jeremiah 19:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9
@mikempb23 does god make it rain? is this universe he speaks of 7 thousand years old? is it geocentric? he is trying to do to science exactly what they do to the bible.
frank turek was not owned or anything of the sort hitchens used group manipulation tactics like comparing believing that an intelligent being created the world to believing in the tooth fairy or santa when we dont need to explain why we get christmas presents or how we get money for our teeth when we are children but we do need an explanation for how the universe came into being hitchings even unraveled himself, he said that we are designed to be pattern seeking mamals. designed by what or who?
@MysteryoftheGods Yea? But then there are millions upon millions of people suffering meanwhile... A great number of which I am willing to bet are religious themselves. I do know with 100% certainty though that your ailment was not along the lines of a missing limb. Show me a God that miraculously heals a missing limb or mental retardation and I'll show you a God that I worship.
@iz2sicc If God did everything for us and made us the richest people in the world, why the hell would we even need to be here then? Your argument is irrelevant to the argument of the possibility of God.
@MysteryoftheGods If we are to all believe in God and trust that we will all live rich in the afterlife, then what's the point in having us on Earth? To suffer? This is the "loving" God you worship? Your logic is seriously flawed.
@iz2sicc Your train of thinking is seriously flawed considering that you automatically assume what I believe and then chastise me for it. You sound just like every other atheist. Insulting me rather than hearing my side. Way to think for yourself there, chief.
@MysteryoftheGods What assumptions did I make about belief? By you speaking of being healed after seeing a faith healer leads to the obvious path that you're religious. You further substantiated my "assumptions" by commenting on how there would be no point if God gave us all rich lives. Where is my logic flawed? Where have I insulted you? I say you insult me by saying God loves you more than he/she loves me. An even bigger insult is that you religious damn people like me to an eternity of hell.
@iz2sicc Wow. Soooo blind. First of all you seem to angry with God to even logically have a debate about him. Now, here is where you go awry. You say that I believe you will go to hell because you don't believe in God. You put theology in my mouth by saying that we are on Earth to suffer (your last post), and go even further to say that makes god cruel. Once again, you are not proving or disproving God, but rather having an angry debate about morals which can neither prove or disprove anything.
@MysteryoftheGods Who said I'm angry? Now who's putting what in who's mouth (lol)? The bible dictates that those without faith go to hell hence they need to be "saved". Hence, the practice of spreading the gospel. And how can I possibly be angry with someone that I don't even believe to exist? You yourself stated that if God made us rich, then there is no need for us to be here. That's your words, not mine. I simply followed your logic and gave you another view of your opinion.
@MysteryoftheGods I debate about God because this is a YouTube video about a debate on the existence of God. Seems to me that you are the only blind one here. I'm not here to prove anything. Just to dispute your claims and assumptions for others to see. Keep believing what you believe. I can care less. But there are people on the fence about this subject therefore I logically debate your claim about faith healing. You initiated this by making that comment. Thank you and Spaghetti Monster Bless.
@iz2sicc Haha. So pompous. Sad really. I would debate you, but if you aren't going to take it seriously and are just going to throw out insults, prejudice, and silly comments, all of which you have no basis on, then it's not really worth my time. I was willing to debate with you, as I have debated many people over YT and have a good record, but with an attitude like that I can see that I am the only serious person in this debate, so yes. Spaghetti Monster Bless. I'll pray to him for you tonight.
@MysteryoftheGods Excuse me, calling my argument against God irrelevant just because you have so much blinding faith is an insult to me. You also insult me with your faith healing comment. You mean to tell me that God healed you, but continues to make my own baby son suffer with severe eczema? Taking it further, you mean to tell me that God healed you, but continues to let people all over the world suffer? And you call ME POMPOUS? You're the same arrogant theist just like the next.
@iz2sicc I am very sorry about your baby, and I am very sorry about all the people in the world that suffer, but to say that GOD is doing this to them is utter ignorance. I never said that God healed my back. I said faith healing. I believe it was the healer who healed my back. I had been in severe pain for 6 months, often times crying in agony, but I walked out of that situation free of pain. Just because someone is sick does not excuse the belief in God. Again, you are having a moral argument.
@MysteryoftheGods Listen, you have me all wrong. I am not saying God is causing all the suffering. What I am trying to convey is that by believing that you were healed by faith (which is normally grounded in religion), you believe that God specifically reached out to you. That means God heals some, but not the rest. He's not causing suffering, but at the same time he is not doing much about it and only selects a few to heal. I'm trying to find the justification behind why this is a "loving" God.
@iz2sicc No, no no. In my last posts I specifically said that it was the healer who healed me. Think of Star Wars. Is every Jedi a god? No, but when they die they believe that there is this eternal force called..well...THE force. By faith healing, I am not saying God took pity on me and healed me. In fact, I'm sure God had better things to do at the time. It was the healer who healed me. So God wasn't the one who gave me my back problems, and God wasn't the one who healed me...
@iz2sicc No, no no. In my last posts I specifically said that it was the healer who healed me. Think of Star Wars. Is every Jedi a god? No, but when they die they believe that there is this eternal force called..well...THE force. By faith healing, I am not saying God took pity on me and healed me. In fact, I'm sure God had better things to do at the time. It was the healer who healed me. So God wasn't the one who gave me my back problems, and God wasn't the one who healed me.
@MysteryoftheGods There's a huge difference between you and me. I don't go around thanking God for great events in my life while others suffer needlessly. I don't expect God to heal my son when others aren't healed. I thank my human life to be as fortunate as I am. I thank the Universe for allowing me a relatively peaceful life on a tiny point in space. To be a part of this world is profoundly beautiful and I see no God nor the need for one in it.
@MysteryoftheGods You go around thanking God for your medical fortunes. You actually think he/she personally reached out to heal you. You expect an afterlife of eternal happiness because you have faith. This very fact makes you SELFISH.
@iz2sicc Wow. Again putting words in my mouth. You think I just have all of this because I have faith? That is an extremely naive way of thinking. There is actually PROOF for God and the afterlife, but atheists just don't want to even look at the evidence. Out of every atheist I have talk to from Michael Shermer, Dawkins, to Randi, they all agree that we shouldn't even look for evidence of God. That's a defeatest attitude. It makes it easy to just say "well he doesnt exist" despite proof.
@MysteryoftheGods You are dead wrong if you think I actively seek evidence for a God. I used to be religious and am surrounded by the religious. From radio to television, a large majority are religious with thank God this, miracle that. I see otherwise intelligent and logical people falsifying evolution with a severely misguided understanding of the theory. I don't seek evidence of God... I'm surrounded by it so I voice my refute. If everyone kept religion to themselves, I wouldn't be debating.
@MysteryoftheGods You are dead wrong if you think I actively seek evidence for a God. I used to be religious and am surrounded by the religious. From radio to television, a large majority are religious with thank God this, miracle that. I see otherwise intelligent and logical people falsifying evolution with a severely misguided understanding of the theory. I don't seek evidence of God... I'm surrounded by it so I voice my refute. If everyone kept religion to themselves, I wouldn't be debating.
More: The fine tuned universe argument is meaningless. It states that life is possible because the universe is fine tuned – exact temperature and pressure in the beginning, at the big bang, and all cosmological constants had to be exact as they are. Factually the universe is not only fine tuned, it is precisely “tuned.” And this is not condition for life, it is condition for the universe to exist – because being a system, universe can exist if it in equilibrium – precisely tuned.
More: creator-god is not existing for simple reasons. If the universe was created out of something, this something existed before and the god was not its creator; if the universe was created out of nothing, i.e. nothing was there before the universe was created - as well god could not exist - there was nothing every where. Thee only6 possibility left is god created out of himself - this is impossible because god and universe are not same. - the religious idea of god is very easily defeated.
Christopher, we probably cannot say there is no prime mover, however we can say the religious god does not exist because it is impossible. It is not my argument: God cannot be in the same time all-knowing and omnipotent - if he new the future he could not change it; if he could change it he is not all knowing, etc.
6:25-6:42 "The great theologian, Lancelot Andrewes, the...archbishop of Canterbury during the Black Death, wondered..., 'It seems odd to me-- there are people who go to church and pray, and they give their tithes, and they do everything that they're supposed to do, and they lead godly lives, and yet [they] seem to die of the plague just as much as the sinners do [sic].'"
Apparently, Lancelot Andrewes was a 17th-century English theologian. Does anybody know to whom Hitchens was referring?
What are miracles?At most, a suspension within the natural law. Just as how medicine can cure illness, & just as how food from all groups provides adequate nourishment, words, music, positive & scientific (evolved) thought & behavior patterns (lifestyle) all helps the immune system, and the brain to improve all the body's performance (physically, and psychologically)immensely for greater adaptation and survival.All so-called bible miracles sustained or destroyed life, so does science &technology
Hitchen's is making an entire strawman, Turek isn't defending religion; no one in the world would be fucking stupid enough to collectively defend religion; he's defending the Christian view of God.
@AtheistTower Why? The point where atheism and theism separate is the assumption of 'god or no god'. Once the assumption of 'no god' is made (in the case of atheism), then reality is studied and assumptions are minimised, and must be useful, to minimise the error (continuum assumption, etc.). On the other hand for the assumption of 'god', there is the decision (and assumption) 'caring god or deist god' (theism/deism), and theists must also decide 'determinable or indeterminate', etc.
2:49 "We're designed to look for them" haha so funny, but besides that point, Hitchens doesn't refute one thing Turek says. And come to think of it, neither have any of you. All of you including Hitchens just whines about things they don't like.
@TrueDebater surely a 'true debater' can pay attention to at least the first 30 seconds of the opposition? i'll spell it out for you: turek - at best - made a case for deism. nothing more. look up the definition of deism and then hopefully you'll understand why there is still no case for religion. thank you.
It's extremely ballsy for Christopher Hitchens to come to the USA, the land of the bible belt, the land of Jerry Falwell and claim that a belief in a God is a ghastly lie. He's right though. Too many horrible things have been carried out in the name of religion. It is sad that Turek apparently doesn't know how to behave without being told. Without a god he apparently does not know how to do the right thing. Does that mean he lacks empathy? The church is full of hypocrites! Turek said it I agree
I don't understand why Christians keep giving Hitchens a platform to speak from. He is nothing but a blasphemer. Hitchens proves nothing. All he does is demean and ridicule. I am glad to say God has dealt with him. I'm only surprised God took as long as He did. I doubt we'll be hearing much more from Hitchens.
So much for that forgiveness of your fellow man and turning the other cheek stuff that Jesus chap was going on about eh?
Also, why did Stalin die in his bed, if your god gives a fuck? Why has Osama Bin Laden not been teleported right into the heart of DC so that he can face justice?
@TheAcad3mic I won't pretend to speak for God. God has His way of dealing with God-Haters. They'll be dealt with here and now or there and later but they WILL be dealt with. It is lucky for people like you that I am not God because my patience would have run out a long time ago.
@YesYou123333 Oh really? He's "deal" with us God-Haters? Interesting. So what if all the other religions are right and you're wrong? Then you're the God-Hater and you'll be dealt with as will the rest of us. Your logic is flawed. You have no way to prove your religion is right and everyone else's is wrong.
@ccline84 In answering your question, I ask you one. If you had to live in a religious country ruled by Islam or Christianity, which one would you chose? There's your answer. You see, it's quite easy to notice the devil if you try hard enough.
@YesYou123333 Your argument is flawed. If you were BORN in an islam ruled country you'd probably embrace Allah and if you were born in ancient Greece, Zues would claim his monthly goat sacrifice or if you were born an Aztec Quezacotl would be your lord of the sky... Being born now doesn't make your religion any more or less right then any of the others you could've been born into.
Also, Hitchens doesn't hate God, he doesn't need him. He hates weak and ignorant people.
@TheAcad3mic Your rant proves nothing. You could have saved yourself some typing. Your argument doesn't prove whether a religion is true or not. So what if you were born in an Islamic country you would be a Muslim. What the hell does that prove? The important observation is that Islamic countries will not challenge Christianity head on. I wonder why? They're scared to death of Christian missionaries. I wonder why? Christian nations let Muslims do whatever they want. I wonder why?
The New Testament makes some very bold claims, claims that the Romans and the Jews would do everything in their power to debunk. Why, out of all of them are their no sources of people testifying about the "Lies" of Jesus. Jesus claimed he fed 5 thousand with a few fish and bread... where's the masses that could easily say "No He didn't"?
@Wwrath They've been filtered out by thousands of years of seperation and people simply not giving a flying duck. For someone who is eager to attribute such weight to 'historical explanation', your understanding of history and methodology in the science of history is remarkably flawed. But then again, what else should we expect from someone cherry-picking, quote mining and using circular reasoning to defend an illogical position which they claim is unfalsifiable. Away with you, enemy of reason!
I thought this was creation vs atheism.... if so, Hitchens already forfeited. He said Deism could be possible. Use science to determine creation vs chance, but everyone knows science can't prove a personal God. Belief in a personal God is if anything a Historical question, not a scientific. Look at the patterns of the early church... it would be the thoughts of an irrational mind to think that all these people just instantly decided to be martyred over a fairy tale.
@Wwrath People become martyrs for credulous reasons everyday. Take for instance a young man that straps a bomb to his waist, walks onto a crowded bus and blows himself and 30 other people up so he can receive 72 virgins in heaven as a reward. To base your beliefs on what deluded masses do now or have done in the past is a dangerous thing to do with your mind. Belief in a personal god is not an historical question, it's a faith question.
It's amazing to me to see so many people so ignorant. Turek explained details of how it is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for there not to be a higher power....while Hitchens said up front "couldnt prove there not to be a higher point"....uhm HELLO people you want answers then listen to Turek. Find one point where he was false.
@Banababe10 Turek's arguments seem logical to you, but they don't to most scientists,most notably physicist Stephen Hawking. Hawking; arguably the most brilliant physicist alive, recently stated he sees no reason to postulate a god creator. Just one point where Turek may be wrong; he uses a version of the Kalam argument which has recently been repackaged by Christian apologist W.L. Craig. The Kalam is full of logical fallacies and has long been dismissed by most philosophers except Christians
@Banababe10 You might look up and read the Kalam argument. While you're reading it don't forget to read it's criticisms. Briefly it says- 1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause to its existence. 2. The universe began to exist. 3 Therefore the universe has a cause for it's existence. This is really the same as Aristotle's prime mover or un-moved mover. The main logical fallacy here is that there is no reason to jump from causation to a personal God. It's still a god of the gaps.
It's interesting how Turek starts about science and logic and barely says anything about religion or Christ. All Hitchens does is attack Christianity and religion. Barely anything about what Turek was talking about. LOL hilarious, too bad the guy is dying of cancer.
We're designed to look for patterns based upon our evolutionary designs. If you see a striping in the jungle that looks a bit like a tiger(5000 years ago), it's probably a tiger and you should run. The people had been genetically wired to look for patterns(again, evolution in design), had a greater chance to not get eaten and pass on that pattern gene. Hence why we look for patterns.
Well, at least God gave you the intelligence to write such a well-crafted insult to his universe. Stalin got the power to execute tens of millions, the black plague happened, and my great grandfather committed murder-suicide, yet I still know God has made a perfect universe. How, you might ask? The answer is simple yet profound: without true pain there can be no true joy.
The world you live in is actually amazing. If you disagree, you don't have to stay. Handguns are cheap.
@tpstrat14 Lol. Well, I'm glad you found my post well-crafted.
Though, I'm fairly certain the universe doesn't have to be "perfect" for me to prefer life over death.
And that answer you gave isn't profound, it's just a nonsense, oft-repeated cop-out. I'm certain I could find happiness without thinking of the millions of children slowly starving to death all over the world. Or countless other atrocities that self-delusion allows the religious to simply sweep under the rug.
@InfidelPerRatio On an off note I believe that we have found the recipe for the world's finest cereal... "Third World Crunch", "Where we can guarantee quality satisfaction with a guarantee that the sweat and blood of hundreds of depressed children went into every box." (y)
@tpstrat14 And the world very much IS amazing. But that doesn't mean it isn't hostile and impersonal and tragic and horrifying . . . it's full of death and destruction as well as "creation" and life.
Nature has produced some incredibly terrible things. And not all of it's products are "perfect" designs. (Like humans, for example.)
The idea that one can't deem something amazing or beautiful without admitting it must be the product of some creator God is just absurd.
@InfidelPerRatio Straw man argument. Your opinion is of no consequence to debating evidence. Much like Hitch who immediately diverts from the original topic of debate into some off-tangent rant against the God of the Bible.
@salmagnum I suggest you look up the definition of "straw man" - as it doesn't apply to what I said. I'd be quick to correct myself....but my "opinion" here is more a statement of fact, save the last sentence. Are you going to deny that terrible things don't exist? Lol. Let's hope not.
As for the last sentence, it stems from the implications of what he said. It's so wonderful and intelligent that it MUST require a God. Which is completely baseless and, as I said, absurd.
@tpstrat14 God gave us free will thats why. He didnt create sin. and if he stopped in on every thing we did it wouldnt be free will. Do you want to know where God was at when your great grandfather killed others and himself. He was in the same spot the day his "Son" was being murdered, watching as he was beaten and tortured.
If you really read into Hitchens' face and aura, you can tell he is a believer just bursting at the seams, a CS Louis just waiting to become a God-fearing, good man. All he needs is one loving friend to say to him with true, loving sincerity "Hey man, come on. You know there's a God. Look into my eyes!"
@Ubermenschable Look at him. He's miseable, not because he's accepted his true worthlessness, but because he has rejected his true sonship to our creator. Someone just needs to tell him "you are a son of God. I know you hated your earthly father, but you don't have to hate God. He's here to help whenever you need it". Someone tells Hitchens that with love and care, and he would get snateched in a jiffy from Satan's grip.
He mentions "design" in the context of evolution. Simply because YOU think the word design implies an intelligent designer doesn't mean that's the case. Natural selection can be said to "design" creatures best suited for their environment . . .
You're just arguing semantics because you can't argue with the substance.
@InfidelPerRatio If I look at a roller coaster and tell you "gee, that is a very nicely designed ride" and you ask me "do you know who the designer was?" and I reply with "well, what makes you so sure there was designer. might it have fallen out of the sky as an acid rainstorm?", you would slap me for being a fucking retard.... ergo, atheists need to be slapped the fuck back into the reality the rest of us are living in.
@tpstrat14 Well, clearly you employ strong reasoning / logic.
/sarcasm
I don't see "design." Much less a design crafted by anything we could consider "intelligent." I think if you do like the religious do and selectively look at the world/universe - picking out all the good things and ignoring the VAST majority of it - then I might be able to convince myself it was.
But as it stands, I'm not capable of self-delusion to that extent. Which I suppose is one reason I'm not religious/theistic.
Interesting comment by Hitchens: "Why do we have religion in the first place...why are we having this discussion? Because we are pattern seeking mammals. It's part of our evolution. We look for patterns. We're DESIGNED to look for them."
DESIGNED to look for them? Designed by? His life's work is arguing AGAINST a designer, yet he affirms the very concept he's arguing against.
@tpirob I caught that too, and I knew your thoughts. It is a verbal convenience to say "designed." That in no way implies an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, round-square designer.
Natural selection is probably what "designed" you. That is why there are still problems inherent in the "design." Consider the flaws: psychopathy, sociopathy, bipolar, back pain, near-sightedness. This is NOT intelligent design.
Hitchen must be on crack... Hitchen better hope there is not a God because If there is, it will suck being him when he dies... Lotta hate in that boys heart...
@EvolvedParadigm Rev.13:8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
@EvolvedParadigm Which believer? A believer from the last decade? The last century? The Middle Ages? The Early Christians? The Apostles? Jesus Christ?
@Brainbuster1000 I don't agree with any of them. I have no need to believe anything. I need no ancient text full of nonsensical stories to live in love and peace. Observing cause and effect works for me.
@EvolvedParadigm Religion is of man,man chooses his own religion and god,but Jesus chooses us,we don't choose Him.Salvation is a supernatural transformation of a sinner,not a human decision just because some one wants to be a Christian.
Does it make sense to you, that God loves him, yet will still subject him to eternal torture, simply because he didn't choose to believe in an idea that made no sense to the logical brain he was given?
@EvolvedParadigm I'M not sure God loves Chris with a salvific love,He loves those He has elected to save like that,but that's not everyone.We are all born in sin ,we all hate God,and are on our way to Hell,our sin sends us to Hell.Jesus is our only hope of escaping Hell.Repent and believe.
@EvolvedParadigm God has chosen who He will save before time and left people out of His book too,those who are alive when the beast rules will follow him, all whose names were not written in the book before the foundation of the world.
@CBALLEN So yes, we all have sin because we were naturally born into it; therefore because of God; and yes, the same God wants us to repent to him for having it?
LMFAO I had the pause the video at 4:51 because it was too much...by that point Christopher Hitchens already verbally bitch slapped Turek a hundred times. This man, simply put, epitomizes brilliance. I don't know how the rest of the debate will go but I cannot imagine a universe in which Frank Turek can match Hitchens's wit.
What does hitchens prove at all? He spends all the time bashing organized religion and doesn't actually present any good solid facts to support his position...
@ChosenTheOnexxx hahahahah so true. Condescension and insult always gives me a straightway key to rejecting an argument. Turek doesn't insult Hitchens, he in fact thanks him for debating him. That gives him credibility.
hitchins on fire , great , intellectual giant
loly1969 1 day ago
God doesn't need anyone to back up His existence. Only fools and haters doubt the existence of the Almighty God. As little children, we know there is a God. It is when people grow up and want to take over God's role that people want to get rid of him with crazy arguments that the universe was created by Nothing and that man came from monkies.
Iceland1944 3 days ago
For someone who thought he was so bright, Hitchens continued to just "not get it". He attacked bad Christians to make a point, when Frank or any other Christian would have readlily agree with him. Yes, mankind is evil. Our religion says that, we know it! Therefore, the need for Christ. Christians do bad things. They are not God. The only difference is that Christians know they need God's forgiveness and help. We accept the gift. Hitchens targeted atheists as his audience. He was crafty.
Iceland1944 3 weeks ago
@Iceland1944 None of your many assertions are backed up with evidence. Therefore I have no reason to believe anything you say.
Hitchens wiped the floor with Turek.
daverowbotham 3 days ago
Yet another agent of darkness. He has gone to join the Father of Lies in the pit. He now knows how he was used by Satan. He is now in eternal separation from God. It is a shame that he had all the facts and chose to ignore them. Now he knows. You God-haters who are going to send me mails with curse words will end up where Hitchens is too. Turn to Christ before it is too late. No fuzzy, feel-good news from me. This is a serious matter.
Iceland1944 3 weeks ago
Just no mercy from the hitchster :) fucken eh!
burtonchalmersnumb1 2 months ago 5
haha.. verbal ass rape
MrSmokingfly 3 months ago
Now I understand where Hitchens, gets his bad ideas about God.He mentions the Catholics, that has to be one of the worst religions around. The catholic church is reffered to in the bible as the whore of babylon for a reason.Not to mention the dozen of fake churches out there making the real christians look bad.Matthew 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Ratacon2004 4 months ago
@Ratacon2004 - . The catholic church was the group that assembled you precious bible...Catholics are Christians by definition.
Heteblixem 3 months ago
@Heteblixem If that was the case I would wear or carry with me a rosary, and would kneel and pray to statues and call a cahtolic priest "Father." My bible says not to do any of those things.Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,'For you have one father and he is in heaven.
Ratacon2004 3 months ago
@Ratacon2004 - If you are going to quote scripture & use it as your guiding light don't forget all the "righteous" commands in Deuteronomy (i.e. chap 13 v6) If your very own brother, or you son or your wife secretly entices you to worship other gods . . .Show him no pity . . . Stone him to death." Don't forget to stone your son when he is rebellious & will not obey you (Deut 21 v8) & so on. If you followed the bible to the letter you would killing allot of people in the name of god.
Heteblixem 3 months ago
@Heteblixem Not 100% sure where you got that from but that is not located in anywhere in my bible. Im guessing that must be a muslim bible. If im not mistaken the 10 ten commandments number 6 says "Though Shall Not Kill."Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Ratacon2004 3 months ago
@Ratacon2004 He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17
This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Do you want more?
Read the bible, I do
Heteblixem 3 months ago 2
@Heteblixem Yeah but that is different then what you said before. You said "Show him no pity . . . Stone him to death." Don't forget to stone your son when he is rebellious ." And it doesn't say that in the bible. And Jesus Spoke In Parables you really think he stoned someone? Name me one person he stoned with his disciples.The bible would contradict itself when it says very clearly "Thou Shall Not Kill."This is why people get stoned to this day. they dont know how to interpret the bible.
Ratacon2004 3 months ago
@Ratacon2004- Interpreted means spinning, that means if the bible says something that you find embarrassing you interpreted so it no longer means that embarrassing any more
Heteblixem 3 months ago 2
@Heteblixem You cannot put a spin on the bible to make something sound better.You do that then you are lying and not preaching correctly.Jesus said,“I speak in parables so they won't understand.”Mark 4:10-13 says,“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?”
Ratacon2004 3 months ago
@Ratacon2004 - Let us take the words of your saviour, rather than rely upon any euphemistic metaphors, "...where there is great wailing and gnashing of teeth".
You really have got to love someone who can design such a place for his children, unless jesus was at the dentist when he said this.
Heteblixem 3 months ago
@Heteblixem Theirs a reason why he spoke in parable.He did that on purpose to seperate sinners/christians from real christians. Only people that commit to God will get the understanding of what he meant when he spoke in parables. An example: And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." He doesn't mean you act inmature and start to play with toys like a child.Children dont do evil acts only adult do them.
Ratacon2004 3 months ago
@Heteblixem Another example in the bible: When they kept on questioning him "Jesus", he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Ratacon2004 3 months ago
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@Ratacon2004 Another example in the bible: And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters. -- Deuteronomy 28:53 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. -- Jeremiah 19:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9
Heteblixem 3 months ago
Hitch rocks....thanks for posting
standswithawine 4 months ago
All Hawking is doing is putting down religion . Not really impressed with providing his own proof to support his belief.
mikempb23 5 months ago
@mikempb23 does god make it rain? is this universe he speaks of 7 thousand years old? is it geocentric? he is trying to do to science exactly what they do to the bible.
cjfilmproductions 4 months ago
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emerickscott 5 months ago
frank turek was not owned or anything of the sort hitchens used group manipulation tactics like comparing believing that an intelligent being created the world to believing in the tooth fairy or santa when we dont need to explain why we get christmas presents or how we get money for our teeth when we are children but we do need an explanation for how the universe came into being hitchings even unraveled himself, he said that we are designed to be pattern seeking mamals. designed by what or who?
lyleknievel 6 months ago
@lyleknievel "designed by what or who?"
Designed by the natural deterministic forces of the universe.
That is an observable fact, whatever superstition you want to hold to!
Tobytrim 6 months ago
I went to a faith healer and I was healed..so..
MysteryoftheGods 7 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods Yea? But then there are millions upon millions of people suffering meanwhile... A great number of which I am willing to bet are religious themselves. I do know with 100% certainty though that your ailment was not along the lines of a missing limb. Show me a God that miraculously heals a missing limb or mental retardation and I'll show you a God that I worship.
iz2sicc 5 months ago in playlist Theist Atheist Debate
@iz2sicc If God did everything for us and made us the richest people in the world, why the hell would we even need to be here then? Your argument is irrelevant to the argument of the possibility of God.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods If we are to all believe in God and trust that we will all live rich in the afterlife, then what's the point in having us on Earth? To suffer? This is the "loving" God you worship? Your logic is seriously flawed.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
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MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@iz2sicc Your train of thinking is seriously flawed considering that you automatically assume what I believe and then chastise me for it. You sound just like every other atheist. Insulting me rather than hearing my side. Way to think for yourself there, chief.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods What assumptions did I make about belief? By you speaking of being healed after seeing a faith healer leads to the obvious path that you're religious. You further substantiated my "assumptions" by commenting on how there would be no point if God gave us all rich lives. Where is my logic flawed? Where have I insulted you? I say you insult me by saying God loves you more than he/she loves me. An even bigger insult is that you religious damn people like me to an eternity of hell.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@iz2sicc Wow. Soooo blind. First of all you seem to angry with God to even logically have a debate about him. Now, here is where you go awry. You say that I believe you will go to hell because you don't believe in God. You put theology in my mouth by saying that we are on Earth to suffer (your last post), and go even further to say that makes god cruel. Once again, you are not proving or disproving God, but rather having an angry debate about morals which can neither prove or disprove anything.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods Who said I'm angry? Now who's putting what in who's mouth (lol)? The bible dictates that those without faith go to hell hence they need to be "saved". Hence, the practice of spreading the gospel. And how can I possibly be angry with someone that I don't even believe to exist? You yourself stated that if God made us rich, then there is no need for us to be here. That's your words, not mine. I simply followed your logic and gave you another view of your opinion.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods I debate about God because this is a YouTube video about a debate on the existence of God. Seems to me that you are the only blind one here. I'm not here to prove anything. Just to dispute your claims and assumptions for others to see. Keep believing what you believe. I can care less. But there are people on the fence about this subject therefore I logically debate your claim about faith healing. You initiated this by making that comment. Thank you and Spaghetti Monster Bless.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@iz2sicc Haha. So pompous. Sad really. I would debate you, but if you aren't going to take it seriously and are just going to throw out insults, prejudice, and silly comments, all of which you have no basis on, then it's not really worth my time. I was willing to debate with you, as I have debated many people over YT and have a good record, but with an attitude like that I can see that I am the only serious person in this debate, so yes. Spaghetti Monster Bless. I'll pray to him for you tonight.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods Excuse me, calling my argument against God irrelevant just because you have so much blinding faith is an insult to me. You also insult me with your faith healing comment. You mean to tell me that God healed you, but continues to make my own baby son suffer with severe eczema? Taking it further, you mean to tell me that God healed you, but continues to let people all over the world suffer? And you call ME POMPOUS? You're the same arrogant theist just like the next.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@iz2sicc I am very sorry about your baby, and I am very sorry about all the people in the world that suffer, but to say that GOD is doing this to them is utter ignorance. I never said that God healed my back. I said faith healing. I believe it was the healer who healed my back. I had been in severe pain for 6 months, often times crying in agony, but I walked out of that situation free of pain. Just because someone is sick does not excuse the belief in God. Again, you are having a moral argument.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods Listen, you have me all wrong. I am not saying God is causing all the suffering. What I am trying to convey is that by believing that you were healed by faith (which is normally grounded in religion), you believe that God specifically reached out to you. That means God heals some, but not the rest. He's not causing suffering, but at the same time he is not doing much about it and only selects a few to heal. I'm trying to find the justification behind why this is a "loving" God.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@iz2sicc No, no no. In my last posts I specifically said that it was the healer who healed me. Think of Star Wars. Is every Jedi a god? No, but when they die they believe that there is this eternal force called..well...THE force. By faith healing, I am not saying God took pity on me and healed me. In fact, I'm sure God had better things to do at the time. It was the healer who healed me. So God wasn't the one who gave me my back problems, and God wasn't the one who healed me...
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
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@iz2sicc No, no no. In my last posts I specifically said that it was the healer who healed me. Think of Star Wars. Is every Jedi a god? No, but when they die they believe that there is this eternal force called..well...THE force. By faith healing, I am not saying God took pity on me and healed me. In fact, I'm sure God had better things to do at the time. It was the healer who healed me. So God wasn't the one who gave me my back problems, and God wasn't the one who healed me.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods There's a huge difference between you and me. I don't go around thanking God for great events in my life while others suffer needlessly. I don't expect God to heal my son when others aren't healed. I thank my human life to be as fortunate as I am. I thank the Universe for allowing me a relatively peaceful life on a tiny point in space. To be a part of this world is profoundly beautiful and I see no God nor the need for one in it.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods You go around thanking God for your medical fortunes. You actually think he/she personally reached out to heal you. You expect an afterlife of eternal happiness because you have faith. This very fact makes you SELFISH.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
@iz2sicc Wow. Again putting words in my mouth. You think I just have all of this because I have faith? That is an extremely naive way of thinking. There is actually PROOF for God and the afterlife, but atheists just don't want to even look at the evidence. Out of every atheist I have talk to from Michael Shermer, Dawkins, to Randi, they all agree that we shouldn't even look for evidence of God. That's a defeatest attitude. It makes it easy to just say "well he doesnt exist" despite proof.
MysteryoftheGods 5 months ago
@MysteryoftheGods You are dead wrong if you think I actively seek evidence for a God. I used to be religious and am surrounded by the religious. From radio to television, a large majority are religious with thank God this, miracle that. I see otherwise intelligent and logical people falsifying evolution with a severely misguided understanding of the theory. I don't seek evidence of God... I'm surrounded by it so I voice my refute. If everyone kept religion to themselves, I wouldn't be debating.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
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@MysteryoftheGods You are dead wrong if you think I actively seek evidence for a God. I used to be religious and am surrounded by the religious. From radio to television, a large majority are religious with thank God this, miracle that. I see otherwise intelligent and logical people falsifying evolution with a severely misguided understanding of the theory. I don't seek evidence of God... I'm surrounded by it so I voice my refute. If everyone kept religion to themselves, I wouldn't be debating.
iz2sicc 5 months ago
More: The fine tuned universe argument is meaningless. It states that life is possible because the universe is fine tuned – exact temperature and pressure in the beginning, at the big bang, and all cosmological constants had to be exact as they are. Factually the universe is not only fine tuned, it is precisely “tuned.” And this is not condition for life, it is condition for the universe to exist – because being a system, universe can exist if it in equilibrium – precisely tuned.
cosmopolite66 7 months ago
More: creator-god is not existing for simple reasons. If the universe was created out of something, this something existed before and the god was not its creator; if the universe was created out of nothing, i.e. nothing was there before the universe was created - as well god could not exist - there was nothing every where. Thee only6 possibility left is god created out of himself - this is impossible because god and universe are not same. - the religious idea of god is very easily defeated.
cosmopolite66 7 months ago
Christopher, we probably cannot say there is no prime mover, however we can say the religious god does not exist because it is impossible. It is not my argument: God cannot be in the same time all-knowing and omnipotent - if he new the future he could not change it; if he could change it he is not all knowing, etc.
cosmopolite66 7 months ago
6:25-6:42 "The great theologian, Lancelot Andrewes, the...archbishop of Canterbury during the Black Death, wondered..., 'It seems odd to me-- there are people who go to church and pray, and they give their tithes, and they do everything that they're supposed to do, and they lead godly lives, and yet [they] seem to die of the plague just as much as the sinners do [sic].'"
Apparently, Lancelot Andrewes was a 17th-century English theologian. Does anybody know to whom Hitchens was referring?
writersblock26 7 months ago
Thank you for posting this, Aught3.
writersblock26 7 months ago
Hitchens is shotgunning. I love him to death, but I would love to see him dismantle the shitty arguements of Frank Turek.
TheSultan03 7 months ago
turek ownded
wotters12345 7 months ago
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berserkur19 7 months ago
pseudo intellectuals.
cirosuperiore 8 months ago
Wow! Hitchen's charges in and takes no prisoners. I'd hate to be in Turek's shoes.
comingatchu 8 months ago
Ah, back to Hitchens' beautifully deep and wonderful voice.
Nerd042 8 months ago
What are miracles?At most, a suspension within the natural law. Just as how medicine can cure illness, & just as how food from all groups provides adequate nourishment, words, music, positive & scientific (evolved) thought & behavior patterns (lifestyle) all helps the immune system, and the brain to improve all the body's performance (physically, and psychologically)immensely for greater adaptation and survival.All so-called bible miracles sustained or destroyed life, so does science &technology
elitevestigator 8 months ago
I'm eager to see if Frank Turek can stand up and walk to the microphone after the verbal assrape Hitchens gave him.
DonnZ0r 9 months ago 13
@DonnZ0r very crude
Iceland1944 3 weeks ago
Hitchen's is making an entire strawman, Turek isn't defending religion; no one in the world would be fucking stupid enough to collectively defend religion; he's defending the Christian view of God.
AtheistTower 9 months ago
Wow... Atheism takes the logical and philosophical route, while theism takes a misleading scientific approach
Samuelwhatshisface 9 months ago
@Samuelwhatshisface
Atheism is far more assumptive than any theistic belief.
AtheistTower 9 months ago
@AtheistTower Why? The point where atheism and theism separate is the assumption of 'god or no god'. Once the assumption of 'no god' is made (in the case of atheism), then reality is studied and assumptions are minimised, and must be useful, to minimise the error (continuum assumption, etc.). On the other hand for the assumption of 'god', there is the decision (and assumption) 'caring god or deist god' (theism/deism), and theists must also decide 'determinable or indeterminate', etc.
Samuelwhatshisface 9 months ago
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Is it just me or does Hitchens sound like Dumbledore?
ctchampagne 9 months ago
Is it just me or does Hitchens sound like Dumbeldore?
ctchampagne 9 months ago
maybe one day we can all speak without yelling. gfd, turek..
Cdubzhappy 10 months ago
Waffle, waffle , charming British wit and accent, patronising believers and attacking weaknesses in religious practice , then more waffling
. . . But he spends an awful lot of time actually avoiding the points put forward by Turek :-)
Very weak as a considered intellectual argument
Waffle
vicachcoup 10 months ago
@vicachcoup He's not meant to be here, this isn't the rebuttal round. They're putting forth their arguments. Learn how debates work.
Karateworm 9 months ago
Hitchens must be copping a blowy under the podium... "DisprovIT".
Or it's his, then unknown, esophageal cancer. Sigh! I like to think he is receiving a blow job.
I hope he makes a full recovery.
ElDuorPaso 10 months ago
I would like to see Christopher Hitchens actually reply to Dr. Tureks points. (other than the religious one he made @ the end.)
TheBloodPardon 10 months ago
OOhh,Christopher,I will miss you.I long for your cancer to go into remmission.I love listening to you debate.And your even better to read.
MultiJacob17 10 months ago
what a motley and dense-looking crowd.
wwww2001 10 months ago
Wow...fattie at 2:56 !
arnthoreliasson 11 months ago
hitchens wins....fatality!!!
too easy though
GBJ83 11 months ago
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Someone just got Hitchslaped.
theseaandcake 1 year ago
2:49 "We're designed to look for them" haha so funny, but besides that point, Hitchens doesn't refute one thing Turek says. And come to think of it, neither have any of you. All of you including Hitchens just whines about things they don't like.
TrueDebater 1 year ago
@TrueDebater surely a 'true debater' can pay attention to at least the first 30 seconds of the opposition? i'll spell it out for you: turek - at best - made a case for deism. nothing more. look up the definition of deism and then hopefully you'll understand why there is still no case for religion. thank you.
clamantuanguyan 11 months ago
@TrueDebater Exactly! I was thinking the same thing.
goodwood505 11 months ago
It's extremely ballsy for Christopher Hitchens to come to the USA, the land of the bible belt, the land of Jerry Falwell and claim that a belief in a God is a ghastly lie. He's right though. Too many horrible things have been carried out in the name of religion. It is sad that Turek apparently doesn't know how to behave without being told. Without a god he apparently does not know how to do the right thing. Does that mean he lacks empathy? The church is full of hypocrites! Turek said it I agree
707BIGGLES747 1 year ago
I don't understand why Christians keep giving Hitchens a platform to speak from. He is nothing but a blasphemer. Hitchens proves nothing. All he does is demean and ridicule. I am glad to say God has dealt with him. I'm only surprised God took as long as He did. I doubt we'll be hearing much more from Hitchens.
YesYou123333 1 year ago
@YesYou123333 You're a disgusting person.
So much for that forgiveness of your fellow man and turning the other cheek stuff that Jesus chap was going on about eh?
Also, why did Stalin die in his bed, if your god gives a fuck? Why has Osama Bin Laden not been teleported right into the heart of DC so that he can face justice?
TheAcad3mic 1 year ago
@TheAcad3mic I won't pretend to speak for God. God has His way of dealing with God-Haters. They'll be dealt with here and now or there and later but they WILL be dealt with. It is lucky for people like you that I am not God because my patience would have run out a long time ago.
YesYou123333 1 year ago
@YesYou123333 Oh really? He's "deal" with us God-Haters? Interesting. So what if all the other religions are right and you're wrong? Then you're the God-Hater and you'll be dealt with as will the rest of us. Your logic is flawed. You have no way to prove your religion is right and everyone else's is wrong.
ccline84 1 year ago
@ccline84 In answering your question, I ask you one. If you had to live in a religious country ruled by Islam or Christianity, which one would you chose? There's your answer. You see, it's quite easy to notice the devil if you try hard enough.
YesYou123333 1 year ago
@YesYou123333 Your argument is flawed. If you were BORN in an islam ruled country you'd probably embrace Allah and if you were born in ancient Greece, Zues would claim his monthly goat sacrifice or if you were born an Aztec Quezacotl would be your lord of the sky... Being born now doesn't make your religion any more or less right then any of the others you could've been born into.
Also, Hitchens doesn't hate God, he doesn't need him. He hates weak and ignorant people.
TheAcad3mic 1 year ago
@TheAcad3mic Your rant proves nothing. You could have saved yourself some typing. Your argument doesn't prove whether a religion is true or not. So what if you were born in an Islamic country you would be a Muslim. What the hell does that prove? The important observation is that Islamic countries will not challenge Christianity head on. I wonder why? They're scared to death of Christian missionaries. I wonder why? Christian nations let Muslims do whatever they want. I wonder why?
YesYou123333 1 year ago
@YesYou123333 In which century exactly?
writersblock26 11 months ago
@YesYou123333 Spoken like a true christian.
cchris000043 9 months ago
shamans dont work? lol
MamaMario13 1 year ago
Wwrath, you're missing the point of what he's saying.
blue1085 1 year ago
The New Testament makes some very bold claims, claims that the Romans and the Jews would do everything in their power to debunk. Why, out of all of them are their no sources of people testifying about the "Lies" of Jesus. Jesus claimed he fed 5 thousand with a few fish and bread... where's the masses that could easily say "No He didn't"?
Wwrath 1 year ago
@Wwrath They've been filtered out by thousands of years of seperation and people simply not giving a flying duck. For someone who is eager to attribute such weight to 'historical explanation', your understanding of history and methodology in the science of history is remarkably flawed. But then again, what else should we expect from someone cherry-picking, quote mining and using circular reasoning to defend an illogical position which they claim is unfalsifiable. Away with you, enemy of reason!
lebannerfan65 7 months ago
I thought this was creation vs atheism.... if so, Hitchens already forfeited. He said Deism could be possible. Use science to determine creation vs chance, but everyone knows science can't prove a personal God. Belief in a personal God is if anything a Historical question, not a scientific. Look at the patterns of the early church... it would be the thoughts of an irrational mind to think that all these people just instantly decided to be martyred over a fairy tale.
Wwrath 1 year ago
@Wwrath People become martyrs for credulous reasons everyday. Take for instance a young man that straps a bomb to his waist, walks onto a crowded bus and blows himself and 30 other people up so he can receive 72 virgins in heaven as a reward. To base your beliefs on what deluded masses do now or have done in the past is a dangerous thing to do with your mind. Belief in a personal god is not an historical question, it's a faith question.
burkerow 1 year ago
Hitchens is just a wiener he just complains
williemetoyer23 1 year ago
Hitchens got owned lol
williemetoyer23 1 year ago
@williemetoyer23 When? And how?
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
It's amazing to me to see so many people so ignorant. Turek explained details of how it is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for there not to be a higher power....while Hitchens said up front "couldnt prove there not to be a higher point"....uhm HELLO people you want answers then listen to Turek. Find one point where he was false.
Banababe10 1 year ago
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burkerow 1 year ago
@Banababe10 Turek's arguments seem logical to you, but they don't to most scientists,most notably physicist Stephen Hawking. Hawking; arguably the most brilliant physicist alive, recently stated he sees no reason to postulate a god creator. Just one point where Turek may be wrong; he uses a version of the Kalam argument which has recently been repackaged by Christian apologist W.L. Craig. The Kalam is full of logical fallacies and has long been dismissed by most philosophers except Christians
burkerow 1 year ago 15
@burkerow
Hawkings is suffering from alzeimer's I can't take him seriously anymore.
AtheistTower 9 months ago
@burkerow i disagree christians are not philosophers.. that requires thinking.
cjfilmproductions 4 months ago
@cjfilmproductions not all christains aren't pliosophers
pheonixking52 3 months ago
@Banababe10 You might look up and read the Kalam argument. While you're reading it don't forget to read it's criticisms. Briefly it says- 1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause to its existence. 2. The universe began to exist. 3 Therefore the universe has a cause for it's existence. This is really the same as Aristotle's prime mover or un-moved mover. The main logical fallacy here is that there is no reason to jump from causation to a personal God. It's still a god of the gaps.
burkerow 1 year ago
It's interesting how Turek starts about science and logic and barely says anything about religion or Christ. All Hitchens does is attack Christianity and religion. Barely anything about what Turek was talking about. LOL hilarious, too bad the guy is dying of cancer.
joorailkken 1 year ago
awww all indians are not like dat, only the PANTHACOSE (spelling may b wrong) pple do that.
ksisneh 1 year ago
if god knows every taught why pray he knows already
mystisme 1 year ago
@mystisme because he says asks and you shall recieve
williemetoyer23 1 year ago
@williemetoyer23 you do not have to ask either cause he suppoly know already
mystisme 1 year ago
We're designed to look for patterns based upon our evolutionary designs. If you see a striping in the jungle that looks a bit like a tiger(5000 years ago), it's probably a tiger and you should run. The people had been genetically wired to look for patterns(again, evolution in design), had a greater chance to not get eaten and pass on that pattern gene. Hence why we look for patterns.
xrider343x 1 year ago
Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall!
Rallying cry of the Hitch and the Hitch-slappers!
OldSportish 1 year ago
ah someone sane!
Haradin32 1 year ago
Hitch always beats this dude oh so easily.............
kidlomax 1 year ago
Hitchens has one of those cool english accents he sounds like he could play james bond or something.
Wordlaw12 1 year ago
guitarmasta37 You should listen again to what he is saying, before saying something.
MGiants82 1 year ago
Well, at least God gave you the intelligence to write such a well-crafted insult to his universe. Stalin got the power to execute tens of millions, the black plague happened, and my great grandfather committed murder-suicide, yet I still know God has made a perfect universe. How, you might ask? The answer is simple yet profound: without true pain there can be no true joy.
The world you live in is actually amazing. If you disagree, you don't have to stay. Handguns are cheap.
tpstrat14 1 year ago
@tpstrat14 Lol. Well, I'm glad you found my post well-crafted.
Though, I'm fairly certain the universe doesn't have to be "perfect" for me to prefer life over death.
And that answer you gave isn't profound, it's just a nonsense, oft-repeated cop-out. I'm certain I could find happiness without thinking of the millions of children slowly starving to death all over the world. Or countless other atrocities that self-delusion allows the religious to simply sweep under the rug.
But that's me.
InfidelPerRatio 1 year ago
@InfidelPerRatio On an off note I believe that we have found the recipe for the world's finest cereal... "Third World Crunch", "Where we can guarantee quality satisfaction with a guarantee that the sweat and blood of hundreds of depressed children went into every box." (y)
Ubermenschable 1 year ago
@tpstrat14 And the world very much IS amazing. But that doesn't mean it isn't hostile and impersonal and tragic and horrifying . . . it's full of death and destruction as well as "creation" and life.
Nature has produced some incredibly terrible things. And not all of it's products are "perfect" designs. (Like humans, for example.)
The idea that one can't deem something amazing or beautiful without admitting it must be the product of some creator God is just absurd.
InfidelPerRatio 1 year ago 28
@InfidelPerRatio Straw man argument. Your opinion is of no consequence to debating evidence. Much like Hitch who immediately diverts from the original topic of debate into some off-tangent rant against the God of the Bible.
salmagnum 7 months ago
@salmagnum I suggest you look up the definition of "straw man" - as it doesn't apply to what I said. I'd be quick to correct myself....but my "opinion" here is more a statement of fact, save the last sentence. Are you going to deny that terrible things don't exist? Lol. Let's hope not.
As for the last sentence, it stems from the implications of what he said. It's so wonderful and intelligent that it MUST require a God. Which is completely baseless and, as I said, absurd.
InfidelPerRatio 7 months ago
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@tpstrat14 God gave us free will thats why. He didnt create sin. and if he stopped in on every thing we did it wouldnt be free will. Do you want to know where God was at when your great grandfather killed others and himself. He was in the same spot the day his "Son" was being murdered, watching as he was beaten and tortured.
RayJDiggs 1 year ago
If you really read into Hitchens' face and aura, you can tell he is a believer just bursting at the seams, a CS Louis just waiting to become a God-fearing, good man. All he needs is one loving friend to say to him with true, loving sincerity "Hey man, come on. You know there's a God. Look into my eyes!"
tpstrat14 1 year ago
@tpstrat14 lol.....that's all I have to say about your post on Hitchen's "aura".
Ubermenschable 1 year ago
@Ubermenschable Look at him. He's miseable, not because he's accepted his true worthlessness, but because he has rejected his true sonship to our creator. Someone just needs to tell him "you are a son of God. I know you hated your earthly father, but you don't have to hate God. He's here to help whenever you need it". Someone tells Hitchens that with love and care, and he would get snateched in a jiffy from Satan's grip.
tpstrat14 1 year ago
"we're designed to look for patterns"... designed by whom to look for patterns, oh God Hitchens?
tpstrat14 1 year ago
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InfidelPerRatio 1 year ago
@tpstrat14 Don't be ridiculous . . .
He mentions "design" in the context of evolution. Simply because YOU think the word design implies an intelligent designer doesn't mean that's the case. Natural selection can be said to "design" creatures best suited for their environment . . .
You're just arguing semantics because you can't argue with the substance.
InfidelPerRatio 1 year ago
@InfidelPerRatio If I look at a roller coaster and tell you "gee, that is a very nicely designed ride" and you ask me "do you know who the designer was?" and I reply with "well, what makes you so sure there was designer. might it have fallen out of the sky as an acid rainstorm?", you would slap me for being a fucking retard.... ergo, atheists need to be slapped the fuck back into the reality the rest of us are living in.
tpstrat14 1 year ago
@tpstrat14 Well, clearly you employ strong reasoning / logic.
/sarcasm
I don't see "design." Much less a design crafted by anything we could consider "intelligent." I think if you do like the religious do and selectively look at the world/universe - picking out all the good things and ignoring the VAST majority of it - then I might be able to convince myself it was.
But as it stands, I'm not capable of self-delusion to that extent. Which I suppose is one reason I'm not religious/theistic.
InfidelPerRatio 1 year ago
How many wars were fought for the tooth fairy or santa claus??
comeonfolks 1 year ago
Interesting comment by Hitchens: "Why do we have religion in the first place...why are we having this discussion? Because we are pattern seeking mammals. It's part of our evolution. We look for patterns. We're DESIGNED to look for them."
DESIGNED to look for them? Designed by? His life's work is arguing AGAINST a designer, yet he affirms the very concept he's arguing against.
tpirob 1 year ago
@tpirob I caught that too, and I knew your thoughts. It is a verbal convenience to say "designed." That in no way implies an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, round-square designer.
Natural selection is probably what "designed" you. That is why there are still problems inherent in the "design." Consider the flaws: psychopathy, sociopathy, bipolar, back pain, near-sightedness. This is NOT intelligent design.
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
@tpirob Who designs domestic animals?
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm And who designs domestic bananas?
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
@Brainbuster1000 Such is the misunderstood context of the design Hitch referenced.
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@tpirob Only YOU, a believer, would infer a designer from such haphazard design.
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
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endunamis 1 year ago
Hitchen must be on crack... Hitchen better hope there is not a God because If there is, it will suck being him when he dies... Lotta hate in that boys heart...
kstotelmyre 1 year ago
@kstotelmyre Love is heaven. Hate is hell.
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm Rev.13:8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm Tell Jesus that.
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
@Brainbuster1000 Jesus probably already knows.
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm Considering how miraculous Jesus was, and how miraculous God is said to be, they sure are miraculously SILENT.
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
@Brainbuster1000 Tell a believer that.
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm Which believer? A believer from the last decade? The last century? The Middle Ages? The Early Christians? The Apostles? Jesus Christ?
You certainly can't agree with them all.
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
@Brainbuster1000 I don't agree with any of them. I have no need to believe anything. I need no ancient text full of nonsensical stories to live in love and peace. Observing cause and effect works for me.
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@kstotelmyre A lotta honesty and courage in Hitchen's heart.
Brainbuster1000 1 year ago
Hitchens is doing nothing but giving us straw men and red herrings,he's not at all dealing with the facts or the subject of the debate.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN True... but he does highlight why our religions fail.
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm Religion is of man,man chooses his own religion and god,but Jesus chooses us,we don't choose Him.Salvation is a supernatural transformation of a sinner,not a human decision just because some one wants to be a Christian.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm Now Hitchens has throat cancer,I do hope God saves him,but either way,he'll find out soon enough if God exists or not.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN We'll all find out soon enough.
Does it make sense to you, that God loves him, yet will still subject him to eternal torture, simply because he didn't choose to believe in an idea that made no sense to the logical brain he was given?
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm I'M not sure God loves Chris with a salvific love,He loves those He has elected to save like that,but that's not everyone.We are all born in sin ,we all hate God,and are on our way to Hell,our sin sends us to Hell.Jesus is our only hope of escaping Hell.Repent and believe.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN What kind of love is not salvific?
So God gave me the sin and God wants me to repent to him for having it?
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
@EvolvedParadigm God has chosen who He will save before time and left people out of His book too,those who are alive when the beast rules will follow him, all whose names were not written in the book before the foundation of the world.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN So yes, we all have sin because we were naturally born into it; therefore because of God; and yes, the same God wants us to repent to him for having it?
EvolvedParadigm 1 year ago
Htchens says "we are designed to look for patterns"wow,is he suggesting a designer?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
LMFAO I had the pause the video at 4:51 because it was too much...by that point Christopher Hitchens already verbally bitch slapped Turek a hundred times. This man, simply put, epitomizes brilliance. I don't know how the rest of the debate will go but I cannot imagine a universe in which Frank Turek can match Hitchens's wit.
andyrooney11 1 year ago
What does hitchens prove at all? He spends all the time bashing organized religion and doesn't actually present any good solid facts to support his position...
GuitarMasta37 1 year ago
@GuitarMasta37 Hitchens doesn't present any facts, no he does, it's just you're to STUPID to understand the intelligence of Hitchens arguments.
ChosenTheOnexxx 1 year ago
@ChosenTheOnexxx hahahahah so true. Condescension and insult always gives me a straightway key to rejecting an argument. Turek doesn't insult Hitchens, he in fact thanks him for debating him. That gives him credibility.
tpstrat14 1 year ago
Hitchens pwns Turek! Way to go Hitchens!
SkepticalBliss 1 year ago