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From: stefbot
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  • I'm not sure what your goal is, but it cannot be persuasion.

    The people you are most likely to persuade to anarchism are those who already have a healthy disgust for big government. So why go out of your way to insult minarchists, to give them the devil voice in your song? You instantly shut down their interest in your arguments. You ought to do a song that explain what will replace law courts and the military. Save your rancor for those you can never persuade.

  • so what is minachism? just a government existing.

    sorry i can't understand what he voice said. odd accent

  • We are playing your game because you, right now, have no chance of winning, while we do, however small.

    Only once a state of minarchy has been achieved (pun unintended), will anarchy have a chance.

    Only THEN will we be playing against each other, will we be your actual enemies.

    Then we will see who is right.

    nice song.

  • If government and leadership is a myth then why has it existed throught out all documented human history and throughout nature itself????

    Oh...history is a lie. Just deny the truth.

    Leaders and government are inevitable. You'd think that one example of a leaderless, governmentless society exists or has ever existed. Nope, leaders always came about in every so called anarchist society whether elected, selected or de-facto. Best to just minimize government power as best we can.

  • Did Ron Paul really was with this Magneto costume? :D When? How? Why?

  • heck yes!!

  • If only the minarchist and anarchist would work together.

  • @peepnklown

    Agree.

    At this point I think it would be highly beneficial to both. As it stands now both are losing to statists. It was slow at first but these days things are ramping up. If something does not happen and soon, we will see emspeed1's '1984' in our time.

  • The statists are great at taking baby steps towards 1984. Wouldn't a Minarchist or any Libertarian state be a vast improvement over what we have now? Wouldn't Anti-Statists, of which I consider Libertarians to be a part of, be better off working together to move towards less and less governance? Anarchy will not come about through Anarchists alone. The coalition of the Republicrats has a monopoly, if you mean to defeat it you may want to coalesce. The enemy of my enemy is my friend (for now).

  • I think Mr. Molyneux philosophy is, that no matter what, the government will only do the wrong thing and grow bigger, because it is in it's nature.. Even America has turned out like that, despite the constitution etc...and it must therefore be abolished... Ideally, yes, wouldn't it be great if we had one elitist leader in a non-democracy, who knew what was best for everyone? But that just wouldn t work in reality, because that s not how the world works

  • "Ideally, yes, wouldn't it be great if we had one elitist leader in a non-democracy, who knew what was best for everyone?" Wholeheartedly, no. You are right Government everywhere grows/ Freedom everywhere diminishes. I simply was trying to point out that we, as Libertarians of various shades of gray, ought to work with one another. Instead we tend to bicker and infight which is counterproductive to our collective goal of drastically reducing government. Hope that clarifies my earlier post.

  • Sure... And I agree, besides if you really want to improve society, I don't think most people will support the concept of anarchism, there's no history, no traditions of that, and it would be impossible with the current system....

  • Stef is saying that minarchism does not work. Government cannot be restrained because it is an inherently evil institution. There is certainly no evidence of minarchism ever succeeding. An old, huge government may be obliterated and replaced by a small one, but the new government infallibly grows every chance it gets.

  • @Fetchdafish

    I get it. However, Anarcho-Capitalism will not just pop into existence. Stef and a million more just like him can argue 'til they are blue in the face, the critical mass for such a fundamental change will never occur. The process of eliminating Government will be like peeling an onion, one layer at a time. And that peeling can come into being through a coalition across the Libertarian spectrum, not through infighting. Stef openly mocking Minarchists is, at this point, not helpful.

  • Nonsense. Libertarians perpetuate the myth that the state is controllable when it IS NOT. No matter how close Libertarians may get to arriving at the truth they never actually do. Anarchy is the logical conclusion to Libertarian reasoning but minarchists prevent that conclusion from being reached. You cannot use the mafia to disband the mafia. It has been tried. Neither can you do much to physically resist its power. All we can hope to do is pass on a little sanity from one generation to another

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  • Examples? How about the fact that government on the whole never ever shrinks? Government has no incentive to shrink, no matter how many people want it. Why would the mafia downsize unless it had choice? The mafia's power grows out of the barrel of gun, not popular support. The state is simply a form of organized crime that has endeavored to erect a guise of legitimacy, in order to make its job easier. It never has been and cannot be restrained, only temporarily crippled by revolt or war.

  • @Fetchdafish

    I assumed you actually were talking about the mafia, Mia culpa. If you agree that It never has been and cannot be restrained., and you should, you wrote it, then you should jump on with whomever is going to get you the most goods. That is where we find ourselves today, and though people of true principle would not do so, there is not many of them left. So why bother, for every one that you can inform, six will remain forever ignorant.

  • @emspeed1

    Here is how we will achieve anarchy. It will more than likely take a few hundred if not a few thousand years, based on how disinterested most people are in the truth, and in fact how much it frightens them. But all states fail. It is in their nature to fail because of their inherent inefficiencies. A smart parasite never takes so much life out of its host that it kills it, but the state is rarely a smart parasite, because the people who run it rarely in act perfect concert.

  • Ultimately the mindset of politicians is "every man for himself", meaning government inevitably grows so large it cannot be sustained and that state fails. The reason failed states are continuously replaced is because the statist idea has the moral approval of most people. The state is force, but many, many people voluntarily serve and sacrifice to the state, and don't allow themselves to recognize the violence at work. If this were stop completely enough, the next state wouldn't be born.

  • This will only happen by [atiently spreading an absolutely anti-authoritarian mindset. The only way we stand a chance to do so is by setting an example, because most people just don't give a damn about reason or evidence. We have to face the fact that there will be no victory in our lifetime and simply do the best we can to advance the cause of freedom by really making the most out of what freedom our masters allow us.

  • @Fetchdafish

    I'm sorry you think it may take generations, or even millenia. During that time subsequent generations will become less informed and more complacent and accepting of their "Bread and Circuses", and Government will grow much stronger. You know, the way I'm looking at it your argument only strengthens the state. "Do nothing, in the distant future it will fall apart all by itself." I wish you good luck with all that is non-coercive towards others.

  • @emspeed1

    Okay, I'm not even going to look at your other replies after this. You keep claiming my advice is to do nothing, which isn't true. You don't seem interested in intellectual honesty. Spreading the truth and setting an example is not doing nothing, it is ALL WE CAN DO. From an anarchist perspective the state is a criminal organization, no matter what intentions it individual members or advocates may possess. On top of that, modern states are very strong and cannot be over-throne.

  • But really, you're whole problem here is that you're blowing the impact of this video and Stef's anti-minarchist position out of proportion. Of COURSE it's great that minarchist ideas are spreading, because down the road that means more anarchists, but that doesn't mean anarchy aren't a world different and should work together, except to extol the virtues of liberty. Further more, this video will not scare anyone from becoming a minarchist unless they're already an anarchist.

  • (3b) A piece of friendly advice; Youve continually lectured at me as if Ive no clue, then claim me to be intellectually dishonest, which makes you seem like a huge dogmatist, might want to watch that in the future when youre out spreading the word. People do not like being preached at.

  • (2b)Openly attacking another ideology that is kindred (at least in relative terms) to your own when there are so many ideologies that are so much worse just seems stupid. Ive never said they should actively work together only that attacking one another is counterproductive. If Anarchy and Minarchism are worlds apart, then Statism must be another solar system because the ranks of anarchists are not filled with (big S) ex-Statists, it is filled with (small s) ex-minarchists.

  • @Fetchdafish

    (1b)"Spreading the truth and setting an example is not doing nothing, it is ALL WE CAN DO." Then the very next post "Of COURSE it's great that minarchist ideas are spreading, because down the road that means more anarchists..." Kind of contradictory but at least you are acknowledging that there is more than one path that can be taken, great. That has been my position all along. (cont.)

  • There's no contradiction. It's the same path. Spreading the truth. Inasmuch as both approaches believe less government is better they are concurrent, and should collaborate as much as possible. But inasmuch as they differ they should make their disagreements known, because they are fundamental disagreements. I'm sorry I've gotten my feathers ruffled, that's my fault and my problem, but I seriously, I honestly do not believe this video or any other reasoned critique of minarchism is dangerous.

  • It isn't going to make minarchists less effective at spreading minarchism. No Statist is going to watch this video and decide to steer clear of minarchists. If it does offend minarchists, it's not going to make them any less eager to spread minarchism, unless of course it does its job and fills them with some nice introspective doubt. There really doesn't seem to be anything to worry about. Though honestly I would have liked if Stef took a little more time to write a better song.

  • @emspeed1

    If only. Anarchists ranks would be swelling if that were the case. In reality minarchy is a trap; this song describes it perfectly accurately. No I don't deny that most anarchists if not all come to their conclusions while pursuing minarchy, but most minarchists do not come to the anarchist conclusion. They remain comfortably self-hypnotized into believing the state can be controlled, which does as much to perpetuate the statist myth as anything.

  • If you agree that most Anarchists come from the ranks of Minarchists, and say that most Minarchists never become Anarchists, then logically you should conclude that Anarchy has zero chance of ever happening. If that is the case, shouldnt you reconsider Minarchism? I am playing devils advocate here. But, if you acknowledge the state as permanent then shouldnt minimizing it be your next step? I think it was Bismark who said Politics is the art of the possible. Not that I like that clown.

  • @emspeed1

    It's insane to attempt the impossible, but sane to focus your attention on what is. That said, spreading knowledge is not giving up the fight to statism. It is instead choosing to focus on the one strategy that may succeed. Minarchism is as harmful a delusion as die-hard statism. Most minarchists do not become anarchists, because minarchism is an insane delusion that seeks comfort instead of the truth. What minarchists need is to be bluntly and rudely shaken out of their reverie .

  • (2a) It is even easier to convince those that think we need less governance to think we need none than to convince those sucking at the teat of the possibilities of Anarchy. Look, would I prefer to live in an Anarcho-Capitalist society over a Minarchist one? Yes. Would I prefer to live in a Minarchist society over the one I currently enjoy? Hell yes. Do I think the first is achievable before achieving the second? Not a chance in hell. Baby steps amigo, baby steps.

  • @emspeed1

    Except that baby step cannot be taken. If politics worked we wouldn't NEED anarchy. If the government could be convinced to shrink of its own accord then it could also be convinced to serve the few legitimate ends that are theoretically possible to it. The whole premise of anarchy is that politics doesn't work! Period. The way we will achieve anarchy is by living it right now; setting an example to our friends and our children just how unnecessary the state is.

  • (1a)My insanity has never been in question. As I have said Anarchy, in any form, is almost certainly not coming. The only ways I can see it ever being achieved is at the violent conclusion of the state (very unlikely), or by first shrinking government until it falls away unneeded (slightly less unlikely). It is far simpler to get people on board with the idea that they need much less governance than to convince them they need none.

  • @emspeed1

    And if you want to spend your time doing that fine. Some of the people you convince will go on to make the logical conclusion that no governance is required. Most however will go-on to become even more devout statists, confident in the notion that the state can become their servant. The government will not shrink because of political action because it is at heart a criminal organization that cannot be held to any moral standard.

  • Briliant. A truism if I ever heard one.

  • In my county we have a REAL minarchist government. My Car taxes are $8 and we dont even have a jail.

  • what country is that I want to move there

  • He lives in America...

  • But then I sigh, and, with a piece of scripture,

    Tell them that God bids us do good for evil:

    And thus I clothe my naked villainy

    With odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;

    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil

  • A nice nod to the great website, LibertyStickersdotcom!

  • I patiently await that "ah" moment where i believe that the general public will magically start believing that complete lack of government is preferable over small government.

    People didn't join the communist revolution in most Western countries, but they sure as hell "slid" into the comfortable bath of social-democracy through gradualism.

    Gosh, what am i saying? Gradualism never works. It was violent Marxist revolution that turned the Republic into the Obamanation.

  • I consider myself a minarchist, but I'm open minded and willing to hear the anarchist side of the debate.

    The reason I believe in very limited government over anarchy is because of foreign threats. If, for instance the United States were to go anarchy, would you get a unified response if a foreign nation were to invade? Would people from the west coast rush to the defense of people in the east coast if they were invaded in an anarchist society?

  • The benefit of having a small and minimum government is a large unified military force. If we're invaded the military responds from all parts of the nation. The defensive response is much stronger.

    I would rather be a minarchist than an ex-anarchist in a Chinese re-education camp...

    Aside from homeland defense I do not believe the government should have any other functions.

  • History has shown that invading a stateless society is nigh impossible.

    Typically what happens is that one state will replace the upper echelons of another with parts of itself. This is because the existing state already has a built up infrastructure of control.

    The US military had every conceivable advantage over Vietnam, but they lost to a mob who lived in holes with old soviet weaponry. Same thing in Iraq. Now imagine if it happened to a country with Blackwaters everywhere. .

  • Interesting point, but when we invaded Vietnam we were fighting the whole country at once.

    What if the invaders did not attack the whole anarchist country at once, just a small part of it?

    E.G. what if an invader decided to move their border up a few dozen square miles, kick the population out, then secure their new border?

  • What I'm wondering is if a blackwaters corp that is funded on the west side would react or care if an invader stole a bit of land from the east. If not, could the country not be slowly devoured?

  • A 'country' is just a perception. People would fight if they saw it in their interest to do so, with they probably would next to an expansionist enemy.

    And without a central authority to replace, they literally would have to creep across one city at a time. Each time fighting an insurgency, that would probably be at least as well, if not better equipped than them.

    That's not to say it can't be done, it's just far far more difficult than invading another state.

  • This is largely a mischaracterization of the misarchism. Though anything that tries to implement the Rolling Stones in a political discussion is win in my book. Let's be clear, Ron Paul, is not a minarchist. Despite that "hitch" he still brought more people to explore libertarianism than every Molyneux video combined in only 3 months of media exposure in the last election.

    Sad, but true.

    Ron Paul serves a minarchal function (using political power to gain exposure for libertarian thought).

  • I think we should first strive to get government as small as possible and THEN start arguing whether minarchy or anarchy is better.

    It is all about taking baby steps if we want this cause to gain more followers.

  • wasn't that tried already? At least from what I understand. The US government of old was the closest thing to a minarchist state? If not. Then what happend? And what could be done to prevent this violent monopoly from ballooning out of control after all the people that create this tiny government are dead?

  • This is stupid. While the Anarchists and Minarchists are fighting over pedi differences, all the social conservatives in this country are getting away with murder.

  • fighting over 'child' (pedi) differences?

    The point is to encourage dialog, go fight your own 'social conservatives'

  • Hostile? It's a fucking song! calm the fuck down.

  • Reminds me a little of schoolhouse rock in a strange way, well done!

  • Great video!

    Though I still cling to my minarchism...

    But let's keep working together to make the state smaller.

    I've heard one wise Libertarian say that we are all on the freedom train, and we all want to go in the direction of liberty, it's just that some of us want to get off a few stops earlier than the anarcho-capitalists! :)

    We minarchists should be happy to work with the Murray Rothbard/Lysander Spooner wing of the freedom movement.

    We must be as big a tent as we can be!

  • "Great video!

    Though I still cling to my minarchism..."

    I see you're waiting for the apple to hover as well. "Cling" is definitely the proper word in this context. You must have an emotional attachment to the ideology, or fear the social reprecussions of renouncing statism, because you lose intellectually.

  • I'm proposing that minarchists and anarchists work together to make government smaller.

    If you would like to alienate minarchists by being unfriendly, then you reduce the likelihood that such cooperation will take place.

    That is not a very intelligent strategy for achieving your goals of anarchy.

  • "That is not a very intelligent strategy for achieving your goals of anarchy."

    Attempting to limit the state is a patently retarded strategy for achieving freedom. It has been tried and it has failed on numerous occasions. Again, you're tossing an apple in the air and waiting for it to sprout wings.

  • I'd say it worked pretty well in America (for white males at least) for almost 100 years. I admit there were many flaws, including slavery and taxation, but there have been few better attempts to preserve freedom after an ideological revolution than the one here in 1776.

    What surprises me is that you are unwilling to make common cause with a minarchist in order to work to make the govt smaller.

    It's like you are tossing an apple in the air instead of cooperating with others to make progress.

  • "fellate"?

  • C'mon, dude. I'm a minarchist, but we are going to have to do better than that to win an argument against the stefbot...

  • We tried your way a few times; it failed miserably. In fact, it fails so miserably, it couldn't have failed more miserably if article 1 of every constitution read, "this document is designed to fail miserably." How many times do you want to throw an apple in the air and wait for it to sprout wings?

  • uh, no we never tried minarchy. Even in the gilded ages, capitalism was compromised for corporatism and subsidation of railroads. If you're referring to the poverty of the gilded ages, it had nothing to do with capitalism(which made us the most powerful nation in the world). People had 8 babies on average! And technology was primitive so the average productivity of every man was low, resulting in expensive products. That's why the percentage of those in poverty has always gone down.

  • "uh, no we never tried minarchy."

    Really? Because I thought there was some kind of revolution in France and America which was supposed to bring about a new age of limited government with binding restraints from an indestructable constitution.

    "Even in the gilded ages, capitalism was compromised for corporatism and subsidation of railroads."

    My point exactly. Minarchism tried and failed. Governments were not constrained by the trashbin basketballs designed to constrain them.

  • that's because we've never adopted an indestructable constitution. The constitution has some huge loopholes in it, such as the elastic clause and the interstate commerce clause. We need to adopt a non-changeable constitution that restricts government to military, police, and courts. If the government oversteps their bounds, the people will revolt, since right to bear arms will not be restricted.

  • i sent you a message.

  • It's what people do that matters, not whether they're nice.

  • even more nit-picky...evil does not exist

  • Evil is an idea, a concept. But it is descriptive. There ARE acts that can be described as evil.

    Murder in cold blood without the excuse of self defense. Theft, lying, etc. are evil in most circumstances.

    While pure evil does not exist as a Platonic form, evil actions most certainly exist.

    This is the only thing a rational person can really mean when they say that evil exists. They mean that evil thoughts and actions exist.

  • what i was basically doing was disregarding the existence of morals

  • Many atheists have systems of morals, and believe they are based on reason.

    Stefbot (the poster of this video) and I are in this camp.

    Other atheists believe there is no such thing as morality. They are moral nihilists or moral relativists.

    Same thing.

    Do you believe there is a rational basis for morality?

  • I had a Stef-the-anarchist moment today when I looked at a bicycle violation I received a month ago. I occassionally ride by my bike to class on campus, and this time, upon returning to it, found a tag affixed saying my bike would be impounded in 30 days if I did not license it. The reason for the license is to help identify stolen bikes. Yesterday my unlicensed bike was taken. My bike was stolen to prevent theft, because it didn't have a license that the police obviously didn't need. :(

  • Plus one.

    "There is some risk that your property might be stolen in the future. This is unacceptable. Therefore, I will steal your bike now, to remove that possibility."

    Try selling that little pearl of anti-reason on a free market...

  • Well done

    Nobody seems to get it. Politics is irrelevant, stop validating it by participating. Create a new artifact, an open communicative cooperative community of planet earth. Design something

    We can rally a billion people in face book or American Idol to vote for trivial shit. Let's use these tools to move people, create a new world game of enlightened citizens earning points for being better informed, double points for exposing lies and uncovering truths, earn the right to weighted voting

  • Death by government. A very good book. I think there might even be a video somewhere. 150,000,000 people

    murdered by government between 1900 and 1999. Surgeons, scientist, scholars, artist, teachers, inventors, poets, and many more who could have help make the world a better place, but then that would defeat the purpose of government. Let the auto industry build the roads. I'll teach my own children.

  • woo woo....is that you?

    Who is this band? Is that you?

  • well, this hasn't stopped me from being a minarchist, but I liked it.

    :D

  • I honestly don't think music is the ideal medium for advertising. Hearing "freedomain radio" in the middle of the song is just kind of awkward.

  • Freedom next time !

  • I think we need to play with a few more national anthems before we decide on this one as the flagship for anarchy. America has the inspirational Star Spangled Banner... and we have a evangelizing fire N brimstone preacher

  • I quite agree!

  • Hahaha Stef WTF?!

  • Coming soon, to a libertarian karaoke bar near you!

  • my ears

  • This rocks! Literally, man. Awesome.

  • A zillion podcasts and thousands of deconversions, and Stef has *finally* found his True Calling! Cute :)

  • Is this a practice run for this May's BBQ Karaoke Stef?.. ;-)

  • While we are slaves in our minds, or potential slaves, or wage slaves, or suserviant, then thats exactly what we are.

    Your mind CAN be free, but forget trying to speak it. You may be able to dissobeye the system, occasianally, but dont push it.

    And those who dream of revolution, should look around them. Looters, murderers, liers and thieves, you are surrounded by. And it is they who will have their power over you, if the present lot are removed.

    We need to deal with socialism, and bend it.

  • Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner until the day he died.

    Thomas Paine is my hero... :)

  • Stef - the new Cleopatra...

    Age cannot wither him, nor custom stale

    His infinite variety

    :)

  • haha I have a great idea for the outfit for my next video... :o

  • There is no state, there are only assholes in uniform wearing a gun. Let the politicians make laws, those who want them may respect them, those who don't believe in laws may ignore them. Hereby I, in the name of GOD give you the permission to ignore all laws, unless you want them. Making laws and respecting them is a game, a silly cult, which I'm not a member of. I don't belong to any country, to any religion nor race nor faith nor belief-system, nor mind-fuck. There is no state.

  • Had to go outside at 2 this morning and slap my djembe to this one. And yes, I have neighbors.

  • wow

  • Free da man radio. HEHEHEH

  • Dayumm you got soul brudda.

  • Sympathy for the devil? Logic is a form of retardation. I knew it!!

  • this songs not too bad, actually

  • lol nice

  • Minarchists are like Agnostics... so close and so far away... :-)

  • Way to misrepresent Rand and others, Stef. :)

  • Rand was a miniarchist, so its not a misrepresentation. That's why she despised Rothbard.

  • The misrepresentation is that of the minarchist position she held in general.  It's total smear.

  • She was a minarchist but she still didn't want the government to provide roads or schools.

  • Hahaha, yes.

  • It misrepresents the technical definition of 'minarchy' a little bit, but as a caricature of people's faith in a coercive monopoly government, brilliant.

    My favourite line was "bought 'democracy' with false currency." That really just nailed it.

  • @Nutcasenightmare [sic :p]:

    I think the point is that the state tends towards rapid expansion, and that it's a sucker's game to try and prevent it from gaining control of, say, the roads and schools, rather than to just be rid of the thing.

  • You should toy with calling Statism sa-Statism or something.

  • Minarchists are like R.C. cola. Not really.

  • lolwut?

  • Love it bro.

  • Dig it

  • Very well done.

  • Needs some production but this has potential.

  • ^_^

  • Lulz

  • ROFL wow that was...something.

  • lol who wrote this?

  • lol i'm pretty sure it's just stef. it's definitely him singing.

  • I'm a man of wealth and taste.

  • This was..different. Would not have dreamed you would make a parody music video!

    I still think your most persuasive format is simply speaking truth into a camera.

    Steph, keep speaking the truth! More of us begin to understand every day. Peace

  • Sref!! I want front row tickets!! Seriously. The limb held you up superbly!! I will have to watch /listen to this several more times due to my feeble condition.Every Thanks

  • Is not that wasn't amusing.. I really enjoyed it.

    but seriously, are you ok? that was a dramatic change of style.

    keep innovating..

    makbe dancing tap next time? :-)

  • stef my boy,,, you've dun it again ! HA,HA,HA,

  • Fan-fucking-tastic.

  • love iy, veryy niice

  • This video is brilliant; and should do some well-needed damage :-)

  • feeling a little uncomfortable here lol.

  • WTF?! lmao this is unexpected....

  • cool

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