I'm not sure what your goal is, but it cannot be persuasion.
The people you are most likely to persuade to anarchism are those who already have a healthy disgust for big government. So why go out of your way to insult minarchists, to give them the devil voice in your song? You instantly shut down their interest in your arguments. You ought to do a song that explain what will replace law courts and the military. Save your rancor for those you can never persuade.
If government and leadership is a myth then why has it existed throught out all documented human history and throughout nature itself????
Oh...history is a lie. Just deny the truth.
Leaders and government are inevitable. You'd think that one example of a leaderless, governmentless society exists or has ever existed. Nope, leaders always came about in every so called anarchist society whether elected, selected or de-facto. Best to just minimize government power as best we can.
At this point I think it would be highly beneficial to both. As it stands now both are losing to statists. It was slow at first but these days things are ramping up. If something does not happen and soon, we will see emspeed1's '1984' in our time.
The statists are great at taking baby steps towards 1984. Wouldn't a Minarchist or any Libertarian state be a vast improvement over what we have now? Wouldn't Anti-Statists, of which I consider Libertarians to be a part of, be better off working together to move towards less and less governance? Anarchy will not come about through Anarchists alone. The coalition of the Republicrats has a monopoly, if you mean to defeat it you may want to coalesce. The enemy of my enemy is my friend (for now).
I think Mr. Molyneux philosophy is, that no matter what, the government will only do the wrong thing and grow bigger, because it is in it's nature.. Even America has turned out like that, despite the constitution etc...and it must therefore be abolished... Ideally, yes, wouldn't it be great if we had one elitist leader in a non-democracy, who knew what was best for everyone? But that just wouldn t work in reality, because that s not how the world works
"Ideally, yes, wouldn't it be great if we had one elitist leader in a non-democracy, who knew what was best for everyone?" Wholeheartedly, no. You are right Government everywhere grows/ Freedom everywhere diminishes. I simply was trying to point out that we, as Libertarians of various shades of gray, ought to work with one another. Instead we tend to bicker and infight which is counterproductive to our collective goal of drastically reducing government. Hope that clarifies my earlier post.
Sure... And I agree, besides if you really want to improve society, I don't think most people will support the concept of anarchism, there's no history, no traditions of that, and it would be impossible with the current system....
Stef is saying that minarchism does not work. Government cannot be restrained because it is an inherently evil institution. There is certainly no evidence of minarchism ever succeeding. An old, huge government may be obliterated and replaced by a small one, but the new government infallibly grows every chance it gets.
I get it. However, Anarcho-Capitalism will not just pop into existence. Stef and a million more just like him can argue 'til they are blue in the face, the critical mass for such a fundamental change will never occur. The process of eliminating Government will be like peeling an onion, one layer at a time. And that peeling can come into being through a coalition across the Libertarian spectrum, not through infighting. Stef openly mocking Minarchists is, at this point, not helpful.
Nonsense. Libertarians perpetuate the myth that the state is controllable when it IS NOT. No matter how close Libertarians may get to arriving at the truth they never actually do. Anarchy is the logical conclusion to Libertarian reasoning but minarchists prevent that conclusion from being reached. You cannot use the mafia to disband the mafia. It has been tried. Neither can you do much to physically resist its power. All we can hope to do is pass on a little sanity from one generation to another
(3) "You cannot use the mafia to disband the mafia. It has been tried." 1st of all, Really? That has to be an interesting story. Example? 2nd, Will the Mafia disband itself if we just ignore it? Or, will it throw you a beat down for ignoring it? I think the latter. The US was compelled to cooperate with the USSR during WWII to defeat the Axis, not because they were friends but because they had a common goal. When that goal came about, they parted ways. Happy St. Patricks Day.
Examples? How about the fact that government on the whole never ever shrinks? Government has no incentive to shrink, no matter how many people want it. Why would the mafia downsize unless it had choice? The mafia's power grows out of the barrel of gun, not popular support. The state is simply a form of organized crime that has endeavored to erect a guise of legitimacy, in order to make its job easier. It never has been and cannot be restrained, only temporarily crippled by revolt or war.
I assumed you actually were talking about the mafia, Mia culpa. If you agree that It never has been and cannot be restrained., and you should, you wrote it, then you should jump on with whomever is going to get you the most goods. That is where we find ourselves today, and though people of true principle would not do so, there is not many of them left. So why bother, for every one that you can inform, six will remain forever ignorant.
Here is how we will achieve anarchy. It will more than likely take a few hundred if not a few thousand years, based on how disinterested most people are in the truth, and in fact how much it frightens them. But all states fail. It is in their nature to fail because of their inherent inefficiencies. A smart parasite never takes so much life out of its host that it kills it, but the state is rarely a smart parasite, because the people who run it rarely in act perfect concert.
Ultimately the mindset of politicians is "every man for himself", meaning government inevitably grows so large it cannot be sustained and that state fails. The reason failed states are continuously replaced is because the statist idea has the moral approval of most people. The state is force, but many, many people voluntarily serve and sacrifice to the state, and don't allow themselves to recognize the violence at work. If this were stop completely enough, the next state wouldn't be born.
This will only happen by [atiently spreading an absolutely anti-authoritarian mindset. The only way we stand a chance to do so is by setting an example, because most people just don't give a damn about reason or evidence. We have to face the fact that there will be no victory in our lifetime and simply do the best we can to advance the cause of freedom by really making the most out of what freedom our masters allow us.
I'm sorry you think it may take generations, or even millenia. During that time subsequent generations will become less informed and more complacent and accepting of their "Bread and Circuses", and Government will grow much stronger. You know, the way I'm looking at it your argument only strengthens the state. "Do nothing, in the distant future it will fall apart all by itself." I wish you good luck with all that is non-coercive towards others.
Okay, I'm not even going to look at your other replies after this. You keep claiming my advice is to do nothing, which isn't true. You don't seem interested in intellectual honesty. Spreading the truth and setting an example is not doing nothing, it is ALL WE CAN DO. From an anarchist perspective the state is a criminal organization, no matter what intentions it individual members or advocates may possess. On top of that, modern states are very strong and cannot be over-throne.
But really, you're whole problem here is that you're blowing the impact of this video and Stef's anti-minarchist position out of proportion. Of COURSE it's great that minarchist ideas are spreading, because down the road that means more anarchists, but that doesn't mean anarchy aren't a world different and should work together, except to extol the virtues of liberty. Further more, this video will not scare anyone from becoming a minarchist unless they're already an anarchist.
(3b) A piece of friendly advice; Youve continually lectured at me as if Ive no clue, then claim me to be intellectually dishonest, which makes you seem like a huge dogmatist, might want to watch that in the future when youre out spreading the word. People do not like being preached at.
(2b)Openly attacking another ideology that is kindred (at least in relative terms) to your own when there are so many ideologies that are so much worse just seems stupid. Ive never said they should actively work together only that attacking one another is counterproductive. If Anarchy and Minarchism are worlds apart, then Statism must be another solar system because the ranks of anarchists are not filled with (big S) ex-Statists, it is filled with (small s) ex-minarchists.
(1b)"Spreading the truth and setting an example is not doing nothing, it is ALL WE CAN DO." Then the very next post "Of COURSE it's great that minarchist ideas are spreading, because down the road that means more anarchists..." Kind of contradictory but at least you are acknowledging that there is more than one path that can be taken, great. That has been my position all along. (cont.)
There's no contradiction. It's the same path. Spreading the truth. Inasmuch as both approaches believe less government is better they are concurrent, and should collaborate as much as possible. But inasmuch as they differ they should make their disagreements known, because they are fundamental disagreements. I'm sorry I've gotten my feathers ruffled, that's my fault and my problem, but I seriously, I honestly do not believe this video or any other reasoned critique of minarchism is dangerous.
It isn't going to make minarchists less effective at spreading minarchism. No Statist is going to watch this video and decide to steer clear of minarchists. If it does offend minarchists, it's not going to make them any less eager to spread minarchism, unless of course it does its job and fills them with some nice introspective doubt. There really doesn't seem to be anything to worry about. Though honestly I would have liked if Stef took a little more time to write a better song.
(2)"Anarchy is the logical conclusion to Libertarian reasoning." Yes, but people will not come to any form of Libertarianism without first being exposed to its ideas. This is the part that Minarchists can play. If Anarcho-Capitalists are the think tank then Minarchists are the PR firm.
If only. Anarchists ranks would be swelling if that were the case. In reality minarchy is a trap; this song describes it perfectly accurately. No I don't deny that most anarchists if not all come to their conclusions while pursuing minarchy, but most minarchists do not come to the anarchist conclusion. They remain comfortably self-hypnotized into believing the state can be controlled, which does as much to perpetuate the statist myth as anything.
If you agree that most Anarchists come from the ranks of Minarchists, and say that most Minarchists never become Anarchists, then logically you should conclude that Anarchy has zero chance of ever happening. If that is the case, shouldnt you reconsider Minarchism? I am playing devils advocate here. But, if you acknowledge the state as permanent then shouldnt minimizing it be your next step? I think it was Bismark who said Politics is the art of the possible. Not that I like that clown.
(1) "All we can hope to do is pass on a little sanity from one generation to another." So your answer is, essentially, I give up? Alright, well, good luck with that. I submit to you that Minarchism has introduced many more people to the ideas of Libertarianism than any other form in the Libertarian movement in the last 5 yrs.
It's insane to attempt the impossible, but sane to focus your attention on what is. That said, spreading knowledge is not giving up the fight to statism. It is instead choosing to focus on the one strategy that may succeed. Minarchism is as harmful a delusion as die-hard statism. Most minarchists do not become anarchists, because minarchism is an insane delusion that seeks comfort instead of the truth. What minarchists need is to be bluntly and rudely shaken out of their reverie .
(2a) It is even easier to convince those that think we need less governance to think we need none than to convince those sucking at the teat of the possibilities of Anarchy. Look, would I prefer to live in an Anarcho-Capitalist society over a Minarchist one? Yes. Would I prefer to live in a Minarchist society over the one I currently enjoy? Hell yes. Do I think the first is achievable before achieving the second? Not a chance in hell. Baby steps amigo, baby steps.
Except that baby step cannot be taken. If politics worked we wouldn't NEED anarchy. If the government could be convinced to shrink of its own accord then it could also be convinced to serve the few legitimate ends that are theoretically possible to it. The whole premise of anarchy is that politics doesn't work! Period. The way we will achieve anarchy is by living it right now; setting an example to our friends and our children just how unnecessary the state is.
(1a)My insanity has never been in question. As I have said Anarchy, in any form, is almost certainly not coming. The only ways I can see it ever being achieved is at the violent conclusion of the state (very unlikely), or by first shrinking government until it falls away unneeded (slightly less unlikely). It is far simpler to get people on board with the idea that they need much less governance than to convince them they need none.
And if you want to spend your time doing that fine. Some of the people you convince will go on to make the logical conclusion that no governance is required. Most however will go-on to become even more devout statists, confident in the notion that the state can become their servant. The government will not shrink because of political action because it is at heart a criminal organization that cannot be held to any moral standard.
I patiently await that "ah" moment where i believe that the general public will magically start believing that complete lack of government is preferable over small government.
People didn't join the communist revolution in most Western countries, but they sure as hell "slid" into the comfortable bath of social-democracy through gradualism.
Gosh, what am i saying? Gradualism never works. It was violent Marxist revolution that turned the Republic into the Obamanation.
I consider myself a minarchist, but I'm open minded and willing to hear the anarchist side of the debate.
The reason I believe in very limited government over anarchy is because of foreign threats. If, for instance the United States were to go anarchy, would you get a unified response if a foreign nation were to invade? Would people from the west coast rush to the defense of people in the east coast if they were invaded in an anarchist society?
The benefit of having a small and minimum government is a large unified military force. If we're invaded the military responds from all parts of the nation. The defensive response is much stronger.
I would rather be a minarchist than an ex-anarchist in a Chinese re-education camp...
Aside from homeland defense I do not believe the government should have any other functions.
History has shown that invading a stateless society is nigh impossible.
Typically what happens is that one state will replace the upper echelons of another with parts of itself. This is because the existing state already has a built up infrastructure of control.
The US military had every conceivable advantage over Vietnam, but they lost to a mob who lived in holes with old soviet weaponry. Same thing in Iraq. Now imagine if it happened to a country with Blackwaters everywhere. .
What I'm wondering is if a blackwaters corp that is funded on the west side would react or care if an invader stole a bit of land from the east. If not, could the country not be slowly devoured?
A 'country' is just a perception. People would fight if they saw it in their interest to do so, with they probably would next to an expansionist enemy.
And without a central authority to replace, they literally would have to creep across one city at a time. Each time fighting an insurgency, that would probably be at least as well, if not better equipped than them.
That's not to say it can't be done, it's just far far more difficult than invading another state.
This is largely a mischaracterization of the misarchism. Though anything that tries to implement the Rolling Stones in a political discussion is win in my book. Let's be clear, Ron Paul, is not a minarchist. Despite that "hitch" he still brought more people to explore libertarianism than every Molyneux video combined in only 3 months of media exposure in the last election.
Sad, but true.
Ron Paul serves a minarchal function (using political power to gain exposure for libertarian thought).
wasn't that tried already? At least from what I understand. The US government of old was the closest thing to a minarchist state? If not. Then what happend? And what could be done to prevent this violent monopoly from ballooning out of control after all the people that create this tiny government are dead?
This is stupid. While the Anarchists and Minarchists are fighting over pedi differences, all the social conservatives in this country are getting away with murder.
But let's keep working together to make the state smaller.
I've heard one wise Libertarian say that we are all on the freedom train, and we all want to go in the direction of liberty, it's just that some of us want to get off a few stops earlier than the anarcho-capitalists! :)
We minarchists should be happy to work with the Murray Rothbard/Lysander Spooner wing of the freedom movement.
I see you're waiting for the apple to hover as well. "Cling" is definitely the proper word in this context. You must have an emotional attachment to the ideology, or fear the social reprecussions of renouncing statism, because you lose intellectually.
"That is not a very intelligent strategy for achieving your goals of anarchy."
Attempting to limit the state is a patently retarded strategy for achieving freedom. It has been tried and it has failed on numerous occasions. Again, you're tossing an apple in the air and waiting for it to sprout wings.
I'd say it worked pretty well in America (for white males at least) for almost 100 years. I admit there were many flaws, including slavery and taxation, but there have been few better attempts to preserve freedom after an ideological revolution than the one here in 1776.
What surprises me is that you are unwilling to make common cause with a minarchist in order to work to make the govt smaller.
It's like you are tossing an apple in the air instead of cooperating with others to make progress.
We tried your way a few times; it failed miserably. In fact, it fails so miserably, it couldn't have failed more miserably if article 1 of every constitution read, "this document is designed to fail miserably." How many times do you want to throw an apple in the air and wait for it to sprout wings?
uh, no we never tried minarchy. Even in the gilded ages, capitalism was compromised for corporatism and subsidation of railroads. If you're referring to the poverty of the gilded ages, it had nothing to do with capitalism(which made us the most powerful nation in the world). People had 8 babies on average! And technology was primitive so the average productivity of every man was low, resulting in expensive products. That's why the percentage of those in poverty has always gone down.
Really? Because I thought there was some kind of revolution in France and America which was supposed to bring about a new age of limited government with binding restraints from an indestructable constitution.
"Even in the gilded ages, capitalism was compromised for corporatism and subsidation of railroads."
My point exactly. Minarchism tried and failed. Governments were not constrained by the trashbin basketballs designed to constrain them.
that's because we've never adopted an indestructable constitution. The constitution has some huge loopholes in it, such as the elastic clause and the interstate commerce clause. We need to adopt a non-changeable constitution that restricts government to military, police, and courts. If the government oversteps their bounds, the people will revolt, since right to bear arms will not be restricted.
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Good video, I thoroughly enjoyed, especially since I'm a Stones fan.
However... [nit picky bit] ... governments aren't evil, people are evil, but to various degrees. whether you have a govenment or not wont change that, and thinking that you eliminate the evil by eliminating government is naive.
I had a Stef-the-anarchist moment today when I looked at a bicycle violation I received a month ago. I occassionally ride by my bike to class on campus, and this time, upon returning to it, found a tag affixed saying my bike would be impounded in 30 days if I did not license it. The reason for the license is to help identify stolen bikes. Yesterday my unlicensed bike was taken. My bike was stolen to prevent theft, because it didn't have a license that the police obviously didn't need. :(
"There is some risk that your property might be stolen in the future. This is unacceptable. Therefore, I will steal your bike now, to remove that possibility."
Try selling that little pearl of anti-reason on a free market...
Nobody seems to get it. Politics is irrelevant, stop validating it by participating. Create a new artifact, an open communicative cooperative community of planet earth. Design something
We can rally a billion people in face book or American Idol to vote for trivial shit. Let's use these tools to move people, create a new world game of enlightened citizens earning points for being better informed, double points for exposing lies and uncovering truths, earn the right to weighted voting
Death by government. A very good book. I think there might even be a video somewhere. 150,000,000 people
murdered by government between 1900 and 1999. Surgeons, scientist, scholars, artist, teachers, inventors, poets, and many more who could have help make the world a better place, but then that would defeat the purpose of government. Let the auto industry build the roads. I'll teach my own children.
I think we need to play with a few more national anthems before we decide on this one as the flagship for anarchy. America has the inspirational Star Spangled Banner... and we have a evangelizing fire N brimstone preacher
While we are slaves in our minds, or potential slaves, or wage slaves, or suserviant, then thats exactly what we are.
Your mind CAN be free, but forget trying to speak it. You may be able to dissobeye the system, occasianally, but dont push it.
And those who dream of revolution, should look around them. Looters, murderers, liers and thieves, you are surrounded by. And it is they who will have their power over you, if the present lot are removed.
There is no state, there are only assholes in uniform wearing a gun. Let the politicians make laws, those who want them may respect them, those who don't believe in laws may ignore them. Hereby I, in the name of GOD give you the permission to ignore all laws, unless you want them. Making laws and respecting them is a game, a silly cult, which I'm not a member of. I don't belong to any country, to any religion nor race nor faith nor belief-system, nor mind-fuck. There is no state.
It misrepresents the technical definition of 'minarchy' a little bit, but as a caricature of people's faith in a coercive monopoly government, brilliant.
My favourite line was "bought 'democracy' with false currency." That really just nailed it.
I think the point is that the state tends towards rapid expansion, and that it's a sucker's game to try and prevent it from gaining control of, say, the roads and schools, rather than to just be rid of the thing.
Sref!! I want front row tickets!! Seriously. The limb held you up superbly!! I will have to watch /listen to this several more times due to my feeble condition.Every Thanks
I'm not sure what your goal is, but it cannot be persuasion.
The people you are most likely to persuade to anarchism are those who already have a healthy disgust for big government. So why go out of your way to insult minarchists, to give them the devil voice in your song? You instantly shut down their interest in your arguments. You ought to do a song that explain what will replace law courts and the military. Save your rancor for those you can never persuade.
famemolto 1 year ago
so what is minachism? just a government existing.
sorry i can't understand what he voice said. odd accent
lordrazi111693 1 year ago
We are playing your game because you, right now, have no chance of winning, while we do, however small.
Only once a state of minarchy has been achieved (pun unintended), will anarchy have a chance.
Only THEN will we be playing against each other, will we be your actual enemies.
Then we will see who is right.
nice song.
MrTallSouth 1 year ago
If government and leadership is a myth then why has it existed throught out all documented human history and throughout nature itself????
Oh...history is a lie. Just deny the truth.
Leaders and government are inevitable. You'd think that one example of a leaderless, governmentless society exists or has ever existed. Nope, leaders always came about in every so called anarchist society whether elected, selected or de-facto. Best to just minimize government power as best we can.
mongoose704 1 year ago
Did Ron Paul really was with this Magneto costume? :D When? How? Why?
metal87power 1 year ago
heck yes!!
nomoreyou1212 1 year ago
If only the minarchist and anarchist would work together.
peepnklown 1 year ago
@peepnklown
Agree.
At this point I think it would be highly beneficial to both. As it stands now both are losing to statists. It was slow at first but these days things are ramping up. If something does not happen and soon, we will see emspeed1's '1984' in our time.
ThndersRage 1 year ago
The statists are great at taking baby steps towards 1984. Wouldn't a Minarchist or any Libertarian state be a vast improvement over what we have now? Wouldn't Anti-Statists, of which I consider Libertarians to be a part of, be better off working together to move towards less and less governance? Anarchy will not come about through Anarchists alone. The coalition of the Republicrats has a monopoly, if you mean to defeat it you may want to coalesce. The enemy of my enemy is my friend (for now).
emspeed1 2 years ago
I think Mr. Molyneux philosophy is, that no matter what, the government will only do the wrong thing and grow bigger, because it is in it's nature.. Even America has turned out like that, despite the constitution etc...and it must therefore be abolished... Ideally, yes, wouldn't it be great if we had one elitist leader in a non-democracy, who knew what was best for everyone? But that just wouldn t work in reality, because that s not how the world works
Sivels 2 years ago
"Ideally, yes, wouldn't it be great if we had one elitist leader in a non-democracy, who knew what was best for everyone?" Wholeheartedly, no. You are right Government everywhere grows/ Freedom everywhere diminishes. I simply was trying to point out that we, as Libertarians of various shades of gray, ought to work with one another. Instead we tend to bicker and infight which is counterproductive to our collective goal of drastically reducing government. Hope that clarifies my earlier post.
emspeed1 2 years ago
Sure... And I agree, besides if you really want to improve society, I don't think most people will support the concept of anarchism, there's no history, no traditions of that, and it would be impossible with the current system....
Sivels 2 years ago
Stef is saying that minarchism does not work. Government cannot be restrained because it is an inherently evil institution. There is certainly no evidence of minarchism ever succeeding. An old, huge government may be obliterated and replaced by a small one, but the new government infallibly grows every chance it gets.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
@Fetchdafish
I get it. However, Anarcho-Capitalism will not just pop into existence. Stef and a million more just like him can argue 'til they are blue in the face, the critical mass for such a fundamental change will never occur. The process of eliminating Government will be like peeling an onion, one layer at a time. And that peeling can come into being through a coalition across the Libertarian spectrum, not through infighting. Stef openly mocking Minarchists is, at this point, not helpful.
emspeed1 1 year ago
Nonsense. Libertarians perpetuate the myth that the state is controllable when it IS NOT. No matter how close Libertarians may get to arriving at the truth they never actually do. Anarchy is the logical conclusion to Libertarian reasoning but minarchists prevent that conclusion from being reached. You cannot use the mafia to disband the mafia. It has been tried. Neither can you do much to physically resist its power. All we can hope to do is pass on a little sanity from one generation to another
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
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emspeed1 1 year ago
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emspeed1 1 year ago
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emspeed1 1 year ago
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(3) "You cannot use the mafia to disband the mafia. It has been tried." 1st of all, Really? That has to be an interesting story. Example? 2nd, Will the Mafia disband itself if we just ignore it? Or, will it throw you a beat down for ignoring it? I think the latter. The US was compelled to cooperate with the USSR during WWII to defeat the Axis, not because they were friends but because they had a common goal. When that goal came about, they parted ways. Happy St. Patricks Day.
emspeed1 1 year ago
Examples? How about the fact that government on the whole never ever shrinks? Government has no incentive to shrink, no matter how many people want it. Why would the mafia downsize unless it had choice? The mafia's power grows out of the barrel of gun, not popular support. The state is simply a form of organized crime that has endeavored to erect a guise of legitimacy, in order to make its job easier. It never has been and cannot be restrained, only temporarily crippled by revolt or war.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
@Fetchdafish
I assumed you actually were talking about the mafia, Mia culpa. If you agree that It never has been and cannot be restrained., and you should, you wrote it, then you should jump on with whomever is going to get you the most goods. That is where we find ourselves today, and though people of true principle would not do so, there is not many of them left. So why bother, for every one that you can inform, six will remain forever ignorant.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@emspeed1
Here is how we will achieve anarchy. It will more than likely take a few hundred if not a few thousand years, based on how disinterested most people are in the truth, and in fact how much it frightens them. But all states fail. It is in their nature to fail because of their inherent inefficiencies. A smart parasite never takes so much life out of its host that it kills it, but the state is rarely a smart parasite, because the people who run it rarely in act perfect concert.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
Ultimately the mindset of politicians is "every man for himself", meaning government inevitably grows so large it cannot be sustained and that state fails. The reason failed states are continuously replaced is because the statist idea has the moral approval of most people. The state is force, but many, many people voluntarily serve and sacrifice to the state, and don't allow themselves to recognize the violence at work. If this were stop completely enough, the next state wouldn't be born.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
This will only happen by [atiently spreading an absolutely anti-authoritarian mindset. The only way we stand a chance to do so is by setting an example, because most people just don't give a damn about reason or evidence. We have to face the fact that there will be no victory in our lifetime and simply do the best we can to advance the cause of freedom by really making the most out of what freedom our masters allow us.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
@Fetchdafish
I'm sorry you think it may take generations, or even millenia. During that time subsequent generations will become less informed and more complacent and accepting of their "Bread and Circuses", and Government will grow much stronger. You know, the way I'm looking at it your argument only strengthens the state. "Do nothing, in the distant future it will fall apart all by itself." I wish you good luck with all that is non-coercive towards others.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@emspeed1
Okay, I'm not even going to look at your other replies after this. You keep claiming my advice is to do nothing, which isn't true. You don't seem interested in intellectual honesty. Spreading the truth and setting an example is not doing nothing, it is ALL WE CAN DO. From an anarchist perspective the state is a criminal organization, no matter what intentions it individual members or advocates may possess. On top of that, modern states are very strong and cannot be over-throne.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
But really, you're whole problem here is that you're blowing the impact of this video and Stef's anti-minarchist position out of proportion. Of COURSE it's great that minarchist ideas are spreading, because down the road that means more anarchists, but that doesn't mean anarchy aren't a world different and should work together, except to extol the virtues of liberty. Further more, this video will not scare anyone from becoming a minarchist unless they're already an anarchist.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
(3b) A piece of friendly advice; Youve continually lectured at me as if Ive no clue, then claim me to be intellectually dishonest, which makes you seem like a huge dogmatist, might want to watch that in the future when youre out spreading the word. People do not like being preached at.
emspeed1 1 year ago
(2b)Openly attacking another ideology that is kindred (at least in relative terms) to your own when there are so many ideologies that are so much worse just seems stupid. Ive never said they should actively work together only that attacking one another is counterproductive. If Anarchy and Minarchism are worlds apart, then Statism must be another solar system because the ranks of anarchists are not filled with (big S) ex-Statists, it is filled with (small s) ex-minarchists.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@Fetchdafish
(1b)"Spreading the truth and setting an example is not doing nothing, it is ALL WE CAN DO." Then the very next post "Of COURSE it's great that minarchist ideas are spreading, because down the road that means more anarchists..." Kind of contradictory but at least you are acknowledging that there is more than one path that can be taken, great. That has been my position all along. (cont.)
emspeed1 1 year ago
There's no contradiction. It's the same path. Spreading the truth. Inasmuch as both approaches believe less government is better they are concurrent, and should collaborate as much as possible. But inasmuch as they differ they should make their disagreements known, because they are fundamental disagreements. I'm sorry I've gotten my feathers ruffled, that's my fault and my problem, but I seriously, I honestly do not believe this video or any other reasoned critique of minarchism is dangerous.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
It isn't going to make minarchists less effective at spreading minarchism. No Statist is going to watch this video and decide to steer clear of minarchists. If it does offend minarchists, it's not going to make them any less eager to spread minarchism, unless of course it does its job and fills them with some nice introspective doubt. There really doesn't seem to be anything to worry about. Though honestly I would have liked if Stef took a little more time to write a better song.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
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(2)"Anarchy is the logical conclusion to Libertarian reasoning." Yes, but people will not come to any form of Libertarianism without first being exposed to its ideas. This is the part that Minarchists can play. If Anarcho-Capitalists are the think tank then Minarchists are the PR firm.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@emspeed1
If only. Anarchists ranks would be swelling if that were the case. In reality minarchy is a trap; this song describes it perfectly accurately. No I don't deny that most anarchists if not all come to their conclusions while pursuing minarchy, but most minarchists do not come to the anarchist conclusion. They remain comfortably self-hypnotized into believing the state can be controlled, which does as much to perpetuate the statist myth as anything.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
If you agree that most Anarchists come from the ranks of Minarchists, and say that most Minarchists never become Anarchists, then logically you should conclude that Anarchy has zero chance of ever happening. If that is the case, shouldnt you reconsider Minarchism? I am playing devils advocate here. But, if you acknowledge the state as permanent then shouldnt minimizing it be your next step? I think it was Bismark who said Politics is the art of the possible. Not that I like that clown.
emspeed1 1 year ago
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(1) "All we can hope to do is pass on a little sanity from one generation to another." So your answer is, essentially, I give up? Alright, well, good luck with that. I submit to you that Minarchism has introduced many more people to the ideas of Libertarianism than any other form in the Libertarian movement in the last 5 yrs.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@emspeed1
It's insane to attempt the impossible, but sane to focus your attention on what is. That said, spreading knowledge is not giving up the fight to statism. It is instead choosing to focus on the one strategy that may succeed. Minarchism is as harmful a delusion as die-hard statism. Most minarchists do not become anarchists, because minarchism is an insane delusion that seeks comfort instead of the truth. What minarchists need is to be bluntly and rudely shaken out of their reverie .
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
(2a) It is even easier to convince those that think we need less governance to think we need none than to convince those sucking at the teat of the possibilities of Anarchy. Look, would I prefer to live in an Anarcho-Capitalist society over a Minarchist one? Yes. Would I prefer to live in a Minarchist society over the one I currently enjoy? Hell yes. Do I think the first is achievable before achieving the second? Not a chance in hell. Baby steps amigo, baby steps.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@emspeed1
Except that baby step cannot be taken. If politics worked we wouldn't NEED anarchy. If the government could be convinced to shrink of its own accord then it could also be convinced to serve the few legitimate ends that are theoretically possible to it. The whole premise of anarchy is that politics doesn't work! Period. The way we will achieve anarchy is by living it right now; setting an example to our friends and our children just how unnecessary the state is.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
(1a)My insanity has never been in question. As I have said Anarchy, in any form, is almost certainly not coming. The only ways I can see it ever being achieved is at the violent conclusion of the state (very unlikely), or by first shrinking government until it falls away unneeded (slightly less unlikely). It is far simpler to get people on board with the idea that they need much less governance than to convince them they need none.
emspeed1 1 year ago
@emspeed1
And if you want to spend your time doing that fine. Some of the people you convince will go on to make the logical conclusion that no governance is required. Most however will go-on to become even more devout statists, confident in the notion that the state can become their servant. The government will not shrink because of political action because it is at heart a criminal organization that cannot be held to any moral standard.
Fetchdafish 1 year ago
Briliant. A truism if I ever heard one.
SocialAnathema 2 years ago
In my county we have a REAL minarchist government. My Car taxes are $8 and we dont even have a jail.
803honda 2 years ago
what country is that I want to move there
icfnord 2 years ago
He lives in America...
DreadLaw2 2 years ago
But then I sigh, and, with a piece of scripture,
Tell them that God bids us do good for evil:
And thus I clothe my naked villainy
With odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil
icfnord 2 years ago 2
A nice nod to the great website, LibertyStickersdotcom!
3rdRevolutionSoldier 2 years ago
I patiently await that "ah" moment where i believe that the general public will magically start believing that complete lack of government is preferable over small government.
People didn't join the communist revolution in most Western countries, but they sure as hell "slid" into the comfortable bath of social-democracy through gradualism.
Gosh, what am i saying? Gradualism never works. It was violent Marxist revolution that turned the Republic into the Obamanation.
tridentmovies 2 years ago
I consider myself a minarchist, but I'm open minded and willing to hear the anarchist side of the debate.
The reason I believe in very limited government over anarchy is because of foreign threats. If, for instance the United States were to go anarchy, would you get a unified response if a foreign nation were to invade? Would people from the west coast rush to the defense of people in the east coast if they were invaded in an anarchist society?
AnduinX 2 years ago
The benefit of having a small and minimum government is a large unified military force. If we're invaded the military responds from all parts of the nation. The defensive response is much stronger.
I would rather be a minarchist than an ex-anarchist in a Chinese re-education camp...
Aside from homeland defense I do not believe the government should have any other functions.
AnduinX 2 years ago
History has shown that invading a stateless society is nigh impossible.
Typically what happens is that one state will replace the upper echelons of another with parts of itself. This is because the existing state already has a built up infrastructure of control.
The US military had every conceivable advantage over Vietnam, but they lost to a mob who lived in holes with old soviet weaponry. Same thing in Iraq. Now imagine if it happened to a country with Blackwaters everywhere. .
TheAtheistRising 2 years ago
Interesting point, but when we invaded Vietnam we were fighting the whole country at once.
What if the invaders did not attack the whole anarchist country at once, just a small part of it?
E.G. what if an invader decided to move their border up a few dozen square miles, kick the population out, then secure their new border?
AnduinX 2 years ago
What I'm wondering is if a blackwaters corp that is funded on the west side would react or care if an invader stole a bit of land from the east. If not, could the country not be slowly devoured?
AnduinX 2 years ago
A 'country' is just a perception. People would fight if they saw it in their interest to do so, with they probably would next to an expansionist enemy.
And without a central authority to replace, they literally would have to creep across one city at a time. Each time fighting an insurgency, that would probably be at least as well, if not better equipped than them.
That's not to say it can't be done, it's just far far more difficult than invading another state.
TheAtheistRising 2 years ago
This is largely a mischaracterization of the misarchism. Though anything that tries to implement the Rolling Stones in a political discussion is win in my book. Let's be clear, Ron Paul, is not a minarchist. Despite that "hitch" he still brought more people to explore libertarianism than every Molyneux video combined in only 3 months of media exposure in the last election.
Sad, but true.
Ron Paul serves a minarchal function (using political power to gain exposure for libertarian thought).
PragmaticAnarchist 2 years ago
I think we should first strive to get government as small as possible and THEN start arguing whether minarchy or anarchy is better.
It is all about taking baby steps if we want this cause to gain more followers.
Carnival11 2 years ago
wasn't that tried already? At least from what I understand. The US government of old was the closest thing to a minarchist state? If not. Then what happend? And what could be done to prevent this violent monopoly from ballooning out of control after all the people that create this tiny government are dead?
wait887 2 years ago
This is stupid. While the Anarchists and Minarchists are fighting over pedi differences, all the social conservatives in this country are getting away with murder.
surfingthechaos 2 years ago
fighting over 'child' (pedi) differences?
The point is to encourage dialog, go fight your own 'social conservatives'
megamanium 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This is not encouraging dialog. This is overly hostile propaganda.
surfingthechaos 2 years ago
Hostile? It's a fucking song! calm the fuck down.
megamanium 2 years ago 7
Reminds me a little of schoolhouse rock in a strange way, well done!
AKammenzind 2 years ago 2
Great video!
Though I still cling to my minarchism...
But let's keep working together to make the state smaller.
I've heard one wise Libertarian say that we are all on the freedom train, and we all want to go in the direction of liberty, it's just that some of us want to get off a few stops earlier than the anarcho-capitalists! :)
We minarchists should be happy to work with the Murray Rothbard/Lysander Spooner wing of the freedom movement.
We must be as big a tent as we can be!
freesk8 2 years ago 2
"Great video!
Though I still cling to my minarchism..."
I see you're waiting for the apple to hover as well. "Cling" is definitely the proper word in this context. You must have an emotional attachment to the ideology, or fear the social reprecussions of renouncing statism, because you lose intellectually.
IVoteNone 2 years ago
I'm proposing that minarchists and anarchists work together to make government smaller.
If you would like to alienate minarchists by being unfriendly, then you reduce the likelihood that such cooperation will take place.
That is not a very intelligent strategy for achieving your goals of anarchy.
freesk8 2 years ago 4
"That is not a very intelligent strategy for achieving your goals of anarchy."
Attempting to limit the state is a patently retarded strategy for achieving freedom. It has been tried and it has failed on numerous occasions. Again, you're tossing an apple in the air and waiting for it to sprout wings.
IVoteNone 2 years ago
I'd say it worked pretty well in America (for white males at least) for almost 100 years. I admit there were many flaws, including slavery and taxation, but there have been few better attempts to preserve freedom after an ideological revolution than the one here in 1776.
What surprises me is that you are unwilling to make common cause with a minarchist in order to work to make the govt smaller.
It's like you are tossing an apple in the air instead of cooperating with others to make progress.
freesk8 2 years ago
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the person who made this video can felate me. Minarchy is the answer.
thunt1294 2 years ago
"fellate"?
stefbot 2 years ago
C'mon, dude. I'm a minarchist, but we are going to have to do better than that to win an argument against the stefbot...
freesk8 2 years ago
We tried your way a few times; it failed miserably. In fact, it fails so miserably, it couldn't have failed more miserably if article 1 of every constitution read, "this document is designed to fail miserably." How many times do you want to throw an apple in the air and wait for it to sprout wings?
IVoteNone 2 years ago
uh, no we never tried minarchy. Even in the gilded ages, capitalism was compromised for corporatism and subsidation of railroads. If you're referring to the poverty of the gilded ages, it had nothing to do with capitalism(which made us the most powerful nation in the world). People had 8 babies on average! And technology was primitive so the average productivity of every man was low, resulting in expensive products. That's why the percentage of those in poverty has always gone down.
thunt1294 2 years ago
"uh, no we never tried minarchy."
Really? Because I thought there was some kind of revolution in France and America which was supposed to bring about a new age of limited government with binding restraints from an indestructable constitution.
"Even in the gilded ages, capitalism was compromised for corporatism and subsidation of railroads."
My point exactly. Minarchism tried and failed. Governments were not constrained by the trashbin basketballs designed to constrain them.
IVoteNone 2 years ago
that's because we've never adopted an indestructable constitution. The constitution has some huge loopholes in it, such as the elastic clause and the interstate commerce clause. We need to adopt a non-changeable constitution that restricts government to military, police, and courts. If the government oversteps their bounds, the people will revolt, since right to bear arms will not be restricted.
thunt1294 2 years ago
i sent you a message.
IVoteNone 2 years ago
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Good video, I thoroughly enjoyed, especially since I'm a Stones fan.
However... [nit picky bit] ... governments aren't evil, people are evil, but to various degrees. whether you have a govenment or not wont change that, and thinking that you eliminate the evil by eliminating government is naive.
Ape65 2 years ago
It's what people do that matters, not whether they're nice.
TheAtheistRising 2 years ago
even more nit-picky...evil does not exist
ieatcorm 2 years ago
Evil is an idea, a concept. But it is descriptive. There ARE acts that can be described as evil.
Murder in cold blood without the excuse of self defense. Theft, lying, etc. are evil in most circumstances.
While pure evil does not exist as a Platonic form, evil actions most certainly exist.
This is the only thing a rational person can really mean when they say that evil exists. They mean that evil thoughts and actions exist.
freesk8 2 years ago
what i was basically doing was disregarding the existence of morals
ieatcorm 2 years ago
Many atheists have systems of morals, and believe they are based on reason.
Stefbot (the poster of this video) and I are in this camp.
Other atheists believe there is no such thing as morality. They are moral nihilists or moral relativists.
Same thing.
Do you believe there is a rational basis for morality?
freesk8 2 years ago
I had a Stef-the-anarchist moment today when I looked at a bicycle violation I received a month ago. I occassionally ride by my bike to class on campus, and this time, upon returning to it, found a tag affixed saying my bike would be impounded in 30 days if I did not license it. The reason for the license is to help identify stolen bikes. Yesterday my unlicensed bike was taken. My bike was stolen to prevent theft, because it didn't have a license that the police obviously didn't need. :(
JTsmiley14 2 years ago 23
Plus one.
"There is some risk that your property might be stolen in the future. This is unacceptable. Therefore, I will steal your bike now, to remove that possibility."
Try selling that little pearl of anti-reason on a free market...
PanzerDivisionBOM 2 years ago
Well done
Nobody seems to get it. Politics is irrelevant, stop validating it by participating. Create a new artifact, an open communicative cooperative community of planet earth. Design something
We can rally a billion people in face book or American Idol to vote for trivial shit. Let's use these tools to move people, create a new world game of enlightened citizens earning points for being better informed, double points for exposing lies and uncovering truths, earn the right to weighted voting
SlaveStorm 2 years ago 2
Death by government. A very good book. I think there might even be a video somewhere. 150,000,000 people
murdered by government between 1900 and 1999. Surgeons, scientist, scholars, artist, teachers, inventors, poets, and many more who could have help make the world a better place, but then that would defeat the purpose of government. Let the auto industry build the roads. I'll teach my own children.
almartin77 2 years ago 2
woo woo....is that you?
Who is this band? Is that you?
rflosi 2 years ago
well, this hasn't stopped me from being a minarchist, but I liked it.
:D
stealthswimmer 2 years ago 2
I honestly don't think music is the ideal medium for advertising. Hearing "freedomain radio" in the middle of the song is just kind of awkward.
ufee 2 years ago
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The John Galt Solution is the only solution!
Stop funding and forging your own chains and shackles!
AngelWithGuns42 2 years ago
Freedom next time !
subentry 2 years ago
I think we need to play with a few more national anthems before we decide on this one as the flagship for anarchy. America has the inspirational Star Spangled Banner... and we have a evangelizing fire N brimstone preacher
Boxmanboxman 2 years ago
I quite agree!
stefbot 2 years ago
Hahaha Stef WTF?!
datalorez 2 years ago
Coming soon, to a libertarian karaoke bar near you!
corruptiblelogistics 2 years ago
my ears
hkweasel 2 years ago
This rocks! Literally, man. Awesome.
scottbieser 2 years ago
A zillion podcasts and thousands of deconversions, and Stef has *finally* found his True Calling! Cute :)
syadasti 2 years ago
Is this a practice run for this May's BBQ Karaoke Stef?.. ;-)
xelenty 2 years ago
While we are slaves in our minds, or potential slaves, or wage slaves, or suserviant, then thats exactly what we are.
Your mind CAN be free, but forget trying to speak it. You may be able to dissobeye the system, occasianally, but dont push it.
And those who dream of revolution, should look around them. Looters, murderers, liers and thieves, you are surrounded by. And it is they who will have their power over you, if the present lot are removed.
We need to deal with socialism, and bend it.
mikeybrumbrum 2 years ago
Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner until the day he died.
Thomas Paine is my hero... :)
newgtguy 2 years ago
Stef - the new Cleopatra...
Age cannot wither him, nor custom stale
His infinite variety
:)
robzrob 2 years ago
haha I have a great idea for the outfit for my next video... :o
stefbot 2 years ago
There is no state, there are only assholes in uniform wearing a gun. Let the politicians make laws, those who want them may respect them, those who don't believe in laws may ignore them. Hereby I, in the name of GOD give you the permission to ignore all laws, unless you want them. Making laws and respecting them is a game, a silly cult, which I'm not a member of. I don't belong to any country, to any religion nor race nor faith nor belief-system, nor mind-fuck. There is no state.
omikron23 2 years ago 6
Had to go outside at 2 this morning and slap my djembe to this one. And yes, I have neighbors.
babaluto 2 years ago 2
wow
MonkeyBusiness233 2 years ago
Free da man radio. HEHEHEH
TruthSurge 2 years ago 2
Dayumm you got soul brudda.
chitchcott 2 years ago
Sympathy for the devil? Logic is a form of retardation. I knew it!!
seditionape 2 years ago
this songs not too bad, actually
DeeperBlueX16 2 years ago 2
lol nice
prodigy00073 2 years ago
Minarchists are like Agnostics... so close and so far away... :-)
fromeroj 2 years ago 7
Way to misrepresent Rand and others, Stef. :)
RyanPig 2 years ago
Rand was a miniarchist, so its not a misrepresentation. That's why she despised Rothbard.
johnycannuk 2 years ago
The misrepresentation is that of the minarchist position she held in general. It's total smear.
RyanPig 2 years ago
She was a minarchist but she still didn't want the government to provide roads or schools.
GForce12345 2 years ago
Hahaha, yes.
pyromania152 2 years ago
It misrepresents the technical definition of 'minarchy' a little bit, but as a caricature of people's faith in a coercive monopoly government, brilliant.
My favourite line was "bought 'democracy' with false currency." That really just nailed it.
Nutcasenightmare 2 years ago
@Nutcasenightmare [sic :p]:
I think the point is that the state tends towards rapid expansion, and that it's a sucker's game to try and prevent it from gaining control of, say, the roads and schools, rather than to just be rid of the thing.
PanzerDivisionBOM 2 years ago 2
You should toy with calling Statism sa-Statism or something.
Adipatus 2 years ago
Minarchists are like R.C. cola. Not really.
ToXiCchrist 2 years ago
lolwut?
newexperiment 2 years ago
Love it bro.
bossmanstalian 2 years ago 2
Dig it
thunderpants10 2 years ago
Very well done.
wispaintstyle 2 years ago
Needs some production but this has potential.
DaveDoggOwns 2 years ago 3
^_^
mos619 2 years ago
Lulz
UcanbeGOD 2 years ago
ROFL wow that was...something.
jmeiskues 2 years ago
lol who wrote this?
DeeperBlueX16 2 years ago 2
lol i'm pretty sure it's just stef. it's definitely him singing.
mihaiguy 2 years ago
I'm a man of wealth and taste.
quakergamer 2 years ago
This was..different. Would not have dreamed you would make a parody music video!
I still think your most persuasive format is simply speaking truth into a camera.
Steph, keep speaking the truth! More of us begin to understand every day. Peace
canubelieve 2 years ago
Sref!! I want front row tickets!! Seriously. The limb held you up superbly!! I will have to watch /listen to this several more times due to my feeble condition.Every Thanks
scochirice01 2 years ago
Is not that wasn't amusing.. I really enjoyed it.
but seriously, are you ok? that was a dramatic change of style.
keep innovating..
makbe dancing tap next time? :-)
fromeroj 2 years ago
stef my boy,,, you've dun it again ! HA,HA,HA,
wcarlpdrysdale 2 years ago
Fan-fucking-tastic.
moonreft 2 years ago
love iy, veryy niice
plths 2 years ago
This video is brilliant; and should do some well-needed damage :-)
FranG1214 2 years ago
feeling a little uncomfortable here lol.
codyjohnle 2 years ago
WTF?! lmao this is unexpected....
TheStig000 2 years ago 4
cool
82816a 2 years ago
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omg, first comment?!
drew335533 2 years ago