Mancow: Waterboarding is Torture: Olbermann

[investorspolldotcom]

Poor Terrorists.  Water boarding makes the Stoning, Plane Crashing, and Strapping Bombs To A Child's Chest look like kid's play. I think the detainees in Gitmo deserve better than this, they deserve caviar, champagne, and the finest catering that our tax dollars can buy. They deserve to have a daily massage, hair care, dental care, foot rubs, back rubs, hell, let's throw them some strippers to give them free lap dances as well just to show what good and compassionate Americans we are.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom Human rights should be absolute, not subject to circumstances. Or the countries using torture should be clear that they don't intend to respect the UDHR. Of course we would have to stop lecturing China and dictators all over the world. Maybe we would find less incentive to invade their countries since their inhuman behaviors would now be ours.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds I don't think we need to lecture other countries about Human Rights, nor do we need to invade them. I think each country should handle it's own business accordingly to what their laws are, not what our laws or other country's laws are.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom So you're saying that the arguments I pointed out against using torture are irrelevant to you. I could answer that stoning as you mentioned is usually directed at their own, so it looks like you're actually lecturing. But the real the point is whether some practices are acceptable by so called modern and human societies. Maybe one day law enforcement will read your initial comment, will wonder whether it's irony and torture you to know the truth. Only fair if you condone it.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds Well, stoning is directed at their own, but I'm not lecturing anybody. I may not agree with stoning, but I don't think it's the U.S.'s business to invade a country b/c it likes to stone people. I could really care less if the Saudis are stoning each other. Who gives a shit? Let em stone away.

As for human rights in America, well, we have a little document called the United States Constitution that prohibits the use of cruel and unusual punishment, are the folks in Gitmo protected?

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom Your first argument seemed to point to the justification of torture in regards to what terrorists themselves do, so now you've lost me.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds Well, the question is, are terrorists protected under the United States Constitution? That's my question to you. If not, should they be? If we capture Osama Bin Laden, should we allow him the same rights as a convicted U.S. Citizen who robbed a bank or something? I mean, that is the real debate, not whether waterboarding is torture, we know it is.

I oppose waterboarding on an U.S. Citizen, even if they are working for Al-Qaeda, let me just make that clear to you.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom The US have the Constitution for their citizens, but also sign the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that should apply to all humans. I'd take both as an absolute but that's just me. I think the USA as well as all other countries should live by their word. Would you consider normal if a USA citizen came to a country that signed the UDHR and was detained and tortured because we "think" he's a terrorist?

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds I consider the US Constitution only as the absolute for this country. I don't believe in any form of International Law and neither did the Founders of this country. If we followed International Law, we never would have been the United States to begin with.

I don't think anybody should be detained nor tortured unless he came to this country and we "know" he's a terrorist or he was working on their behalf and trying to kill our soldiers on the battlefield.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom "Knowing" is a difficult process. It's hard enough to decide with a court of law. But without one, even more. Gitmo already proved it.

Obviously your country believe(s/d) enough in the UDHR to sign it. If it doesn't respect treaties and conventions, then Geneva Conventions don't apply and there is no terrorism, only warfare. And it's ok if every party tortures the enemy soldiers.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds "Knowing" is really not as difficult as you think. If a guy is an enemy on the battlefield and shooting at our soldiers and we capture em, we know he's a terrorist or an enemy, I should say.

My country today is NOT the same country that the Founders envisioned it would be. Let's make that clear first. We respect treaties, yes, but to sign on to the Geneva Convention was a huge mistake. In war, most countries don't respect treaties nor conventions, John McCain was tortured in Nam.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom Yes that's one instance of knowing easily, but in many others it won't work, or no innocent people would have been brought to Gitmo, and there would be no need for courts.

As for Geneva, you can't expect others to follow principles that you don't follow yourself. Each country signing it was protecting their soldiers to some extent or hoping to. And yes the US signed those treaties, and now disrespect both of them by using torture.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds The Court System doesn't always get it right either and the innocent can be found guilty in the Courts as well. If you think there's a perfect system, the reality is, there is no perfect system.

People weren't following Geneva long before there was a Gitmo. Every country has tortured its prisoners somehow, someway, but the only news we ever hear about is the United States doing it. Prior to Gitmo, the U.S. sent their prisoners to Egypt to be tortured. Why isn't that ever mentioned

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom Maybe no system is perfect but I think we should make sure we do our best.

True about states torturing before. Actually your country came to mine in order to know what worked best with Muslims (cause we had more torture experience than you at the time). Less communication back then, so we learned it decades after.

I think Egypt's not mentioned because it's irrelevant to the debate about the justification of torture. If Gitmo is bad then Egypt was.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds Well, our Court System supposedly does its best to make sure we get as many guilty and less innocents as possible, but people do slip through the cracks, but it doesn't matter anymore anyways, because the court system is corrupt too.

No offense, but your country is not the model in how to deal with the Muslims. It's hard to communicate with people who are stuck in their ideological ways.

Egypt is irrelevant? U.S. outsourced prisoners to be tortured even worse in Egypt than Gitmo.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom No, my country is no model. We tortured Algerians during the Algerian war, only to give them through bloodshed what they had been asking from day 1.

If the debate is whether torture is acceptable, pointing out that there are other torture camps is not relevant in that it doesn't change the outcome of the debate. That there is another torture camp doesn't bring information on the moral validity of torture.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds I'm not saying that torture is moral, but let's face it, you don't take a knife to a gun fight. You don't go to a fist fight with a broken shoulder. What i'm saying is, if your enemy is willing to do it to you, you better be willing to do it to them too, otherwise, you're gonna be shit out of luck.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom If your reasoning is "it's ok to torture because others do", there is no way those others will stop.

You're opening the pandora box. One day someone in your government will say "after all it works for terrorists, why not try on citizens we know are guilty of some crime so that we make justice more efficient?". The more tools you give a government or a police force to control you, the more it will misuse it.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds My reasoning is this, you better be willing to do to your enemy, what your enemy is willing to do to you. I'm not opening any pandora box. This is the classic Liberal argument. Prisoners of War are NOT protected by the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution. When we go to a country and bomb the shit out of it, we're NOT respected the Constitutional Rights of those people, we're bombing the shit out of them. If the Government uses torture on domestic prisoners, i'm w/ you

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom I understand your reasoning, but I'm saying that there is no hope of changing the mindsets of others if you are not able to take it upon you to not use torture. The overall situation will not improve if you don't consider other human beings as worthy of respect and dignity as you consider Americans. Torture may work as a short term solution, but you will only create more resentment and make more enemies. Hardly a way to reach a peaceful world.

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds I would agree with you if the enemies were rational people like most of the Western World, but the people we're talking about don't give a damn if we use torture or not, they'll still use torture even if we don't. These people are hellbent on bringing down the west at any cost and will use any measure to do so. We can set all the examples we want, but I'd also argue that we already have. We've shown them how much better a Democratic-Republic Society is, (cont.)

[investorspolldotcom]

@800pieds but they still insist on imposing dictatorships on their own people, even in the 21st Century.

[800pieds]

@investorspolldotcom Obviously some people are trying to change that, following democracies' examples. As for dictatorships, we have huge responsibilities in not helping democracy in many countries, Irak being a perfect example. Chile had democracy until a US-sponsored coup led to dictatorship. And a French minister offered help to the government of Tunisia to control the riots (then again she got the sack by popular demand). Powerful countries should lead by example (I mean good example).

[earwaxhalo]

Breaking news? And they call Fox News sensationalist? Fuck Olbermann!

[keeza333]

hey when it comes to the top terrorists/enemy combatants , torture away. by waterboarding kalid shake muhomo , we prevented a second 9/11 . hey all of you need to watch a movie called unthinkable with samuel L jackson.

[Alecal89]

Any testimony obtained by water boarding should be rejected, im not a conspiracy guy, but i bet cheney and bush liked waterbording because it helped them cover their asses.

[timpipe]

America, love it or leave it. Anyone who likes the idea of torture denies the basic values and philosophies upon which our country was founded: Habeus Corpus, the Enlightenment, the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Geneva Conventions, and from our Judeo-Christian roots: the Beatitudes. All spell out the manner in which this country should conduct itself. Don't like the ideas in these documents? Leave, you do not belong here.

[1freedomfighter11]

amen to that

[steeby420]

@timpipe So do you honestly believe George Washington wouldn't have tortured some Redcoat if there was even a slight possibility it could save an Americans life?

[jopaddy81]

they went easy on him. His hand weren't tied. At G-bay, those suspects are in chains

[larry267]

wow now I really feel bad for the terrorist, I was so confused before. I really think we should give them lollipops then they will like us ,tell us everything and not want to kill us anymore

[1freedomfighter11]

what terrorists? the ones defending there country that got invaded?

[larry267]

not even worth a comment

[1freedomfighter11]

you do know that al qaeda has nothing to do with iraq right? and never did? you do know the war is a war over words (war on terrorism) that will last as long as retards will not realize that its just about oil, power and control. lmao war on terrorism, biggest scam of the century. especially since 9/11 was an inside job just like operation north woods was ADMITED to. Americans like you make me want to puke. I bet your water is fluoridated right? you do know it has been proven to reduce IQ?

[larry267]

Heres some ?s you can answer for me please since your so smart. How did they set up the explosives in the twin towers without the thousands of people that went there daily seeing them. In the clean up why was there no explosive debris, blasting caps, wire found? How do you keep the thousands of people that would be in that secret on the same story? Why did Bin Ladin take credit? How did popular mechanics prove almost everything in documentury and why does loose change keep changing there story?

[1freedomfighter11]

part 2: working in there as well as power outages. You do know there was traces of thermite found suggesting bombs to right? You should look up operation north woods if you think these type of things don't happen, its called a red flag, and it has already been admitted to. And laden denied he was involved in the attacks, half the people they said that did the hijacking are still alive you honestly think a passport miraculously survived the explosions?

[1freedomfighter11]

part1:You need to stop believing the lies being told to you,watch the vids of real people that where there that day telling you there where explosions going off in those buildings BEFOREthe first plane hit, buildings can not fall at free fall speed due to structural failure,in fact those buildings where designed to be hit by a larger plane and still stand,they also had strange activity in the buildings days before the incident,the bomb dogs where taken away and there were reports of strange men

[xj2yzz]

Saddam put up the money for the attacks.Thats the truth,9 terrorists were from iraq and muslims.

[1freedomfighter11]

lol where did you dream that up? Actually the CIA put Saddam into power but he had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 would you like to hear this from your own president?

watch?v=mdlEcFfYZ2k

[xj2yzz]

Thats the truth,homo loving baby killing liberal.

[olscratch77]

Olbermann is a total douce' bag! A complete dumbass & so is mancow. They just lie and spew liberal horseshit! WATERBOARDING IS NOT TORTURE!!! Period.

[1freedomfighter11]

Yeah the nerve of people to spew the truth.

[rrhynes]

Eric "ManCunt" Muller should have had Jesse Ventura on to do this to him Of course, if you put Ventura , Muller and Olbermann on at the same time, their collective egos would probably result in some form of fission reaction.

[rrhynes]

And yes, I support the death penalty, but only because it satisfies my sense of justice, not because i think it is a deterrent. Same way I feel about torture. Use if if it works. Or let Iseme invite them over for dinner and rationalize with them.

[ismeme]

I've given you the evidence to prove torture doesn't work, and there's plenty more out there from career professionals who say torture produces unreliable intel. You refuse to acknowledge it because you only want to satisfy your "sense of justice". You don't give a damn what the repercussions are of operating outside the Rule of Law. You're the perfect example of the willful ignorance that has put this country in such danger.

[rrhynes]

Willful ignorance. How much real "evidence" is there? I'm sure you don't really have quantitative studies at your disposal to prove what you're saying. Oh wait a minute. You wathc Olbermann. I forgot. Let me bow to the knowledge guru of Keith Ubermann!

[ismeme]

I know what the two FBI agents who interrogated AZ say, and I've looked at the OLC memos and compared them to what the CIA and Bush have said about KSM. The discrepancies are obvious.

I also know that the CIA rendered al-Libi to Egypt where he confessed under torture that Saddam was teaching AQ how to use WMD, that the Defense Intelligence Agency raised serious concerns in Feb 2002 over that confession, and yet Bush and his admin used it as "evidence" to invade Iraq.

I research things.

[rrhynes]

Still, so little evidence on very broad topic. I'm not going use a microscope to anyalyze this subject. Your arguments stem from what traces of informaion you've gleaned from what we've been told. Unless you're some government operative that is masquerading as an Olbermann fan, I'll stick to my guns on this one.

[rrhynes]

And your goddamn right I want justice. These cocksuckers are lucky I don't have the abilty to extract justice. If so, Baghdad would be nothing but a cooling cinder by now. Fuck Iraq and all the crazy behavior that ruins the safety of the world in the name of Allah.

[ismeme]

That's a depraved sense of justice you've got, rrhynes. 3000 innocent people died on 9/11 and you want to wipe out millions more innocent people to make it "right".

BTW, Christian Arabs call God "Allah" too. It's the language, not the religion. Educate yourself for fuck's sake.

[rrhynes]

Not to make it "right" . There is no way to correct what has been done. But yes, I would kill millions in the name of making a permanent impression on something I see as insidious and unstoppable.

[ismeme]

You do realize that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, don't you?

[rrhynes]

One other thing. Since you are so convicned that the US is endangering and itself by torturing three different men. I want to hear your reasoning for the first bombing of the WTC and then the ulitimate destruction of both towers. Was it because we waterboarded someone's favorite uncle? Your crazy if you think these people respect the treatment you want to bestow upon them. They're the same as the Japannese in WWII. The atomic bomb fixed that problem...real quick.

[ismeme]

It was done by people who are sick of the USA meddling in Middle Eastern politics for its own gain leaving the people to suffer under despotic rulers, and in particular for taking Israel's side and providing the arms it uses against the Palestinians. Islamic extremism grew up around and seethes over interference from the West, now including our abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know you won't understand that perspective. Too few Americans do, but until we do we won't stop ME terrorism.

[rrhynes]

Regardless of their "perspective", they intentionally killed as many non-combatatants as they possibly could. Are you now trying to justify their actions because they are unhappy with the government leaders decisions? Hmm Sounds familiar.

[ismeme]

You asked a question, I answered it. Apparently you're too lazy to grasp the significant difference between understanding and justifying.

[rrhynes]

Lazy? I doubt that. Perhaps I missed your point. If I were lazy, I would have given up on this conversation a long time ago.

[ismeme]

Okay. Intellectually dishonest, if you prefer.

[rrhynes]

Okay. Whatever label you would like to apply to my way of thinking. Our opinion of one anothers faulty reasoning is really of no value here. It is only important to us. I disagree with you on numerous points and neither of our philosphies is currently being implemented. Now what?

[ismeme]

We agree to disagree. Thanks for the civil debate.

[rrhynes]

Now Mancow knows how I feel when I watch his show!

[rrhynes]

After watching this video and reviewing the comments, I can honestly say that none of you should join the CIA. These people are the unspoken ones. They do the dirty work nobody wants you to know about and that includes our Congressman. They are a necessity and will always need to work behind the curtains in order to keep up with the rest of the world. There will never be complete transparency and even Obama knows there simply is no other way.

[Egypt7788]

Sean Hannity knows if he does go through with it and says that Waterboarding is indeed torture his career is over.

[rrhynes]

If this was done by the Taliban he'd be drowning in urine.

[rrhynes]

Do you gutless wonders watch TV, other than Olberfool? If this brings tears to your eyes than I would hate to think what you would do if you ran into one of the Pentagon survivors that had 80% of their flesh burned off. Seriously! It's water, it's unnatural and even if it only works 1% percnet of the time, it's worth it. I guess an encounter group or boys home would be more appropriate. Do you think they would extend your courtesies to our men? Get a grip.

[richardhutnik]

And by dropping yourself to the same level as a terrorist, care to explain what you gain? Give up every value you hold in the name of "Safety"?

[rrhynes]

Yes. Just as your soldiers give up their young lives and body parts for our safety. And it isn't every value I hold, it's just one of them. Do you think our soldiers don't struggle with the fact they might be killing someone that didn't deserve it?

[richardhutnik]

You would have America give up EVERY value it holds, including freedom, and private property ownership, in the name of "safety"? Since we have around 50,000 automobile deaths a year, shouldn't we outlaw cars?

[rrhynes]

Not a good comparison. If Americans kill Americans, it isn't an issue for the CIA or the US Military. And we aren't giving up EVERY value we hold by waterboarding three detainees. My God , let's not get so dramatic about it. People spend years in prison for crimes they didn't commit and that is far more prevalent than three assholes getting waterboarded. Maybe you should concentrate on domestic issues and let the international crowd handle these thugs.

[krishnadas]

Please refrain from name calling. Try to your argument on the "civil" level.

Your comment that "It's only water" is the same reasoning used by Mancow - until he tried it... Then he changed his mind and now says it is torture. He later said he felt horrible head aches and chest pains for days. He prayed with his wife and children to make it go away.

[rrhynes]

Let's get over the "torture" issue. Either you want to get the information you need to save lives or you don't. In my opinion, it is better to beg for forgiveness than ask permission. This is the way the CIA, FBI and every other government agency has always operated. You don't really expect it to change do you? By the way, I don't remember calling you a name of any kind. However, I might just do that in the future if you persist with all the whining.

[ismeme]

If you want to get over the "torture" issue then you'd better get over the US Constitution as well, because its treaty clause makes torture illegal, and that includes waterboarding.

FYI, the FBI got all actionable intel from Abu Zubaydah using standard interrogation. He stopped giving useful intel when the CIA started waterboarding him.

The CIA claims that by wb'ing KSM they averted the 2002 plot against the LA Library Tower. Good trick considering KSM was captured in 2003.

[rrhynes]

Obviously, not all operatives agree that talking is as effective as waterboarding. If there were a general consensus on this issue, it wouldn't be implemented. I would imagine they waterboarded Abu Z after they got as far as they could with talking to him. By the way, I hope you are not so naive as to believe the Constitution is upheld at all times and regardless of circumstances. The government interprets this sacred document so suit their fancy.

[ismeme]

What you "imagine" is of no import. The FBI agents who handled AZ have said they got Jose Padilla's identity, KSM's alias and details on 9/11 from him by using standard interrogation methods. The CIA then took him away to use "enhanced" techniques on him, despite the protests of the FBI agents. And that's where the good intel ended.

Ignore the Constitution and face the consequences. Isn't that how Clinton was impeached?

[rrhynes]

Clinton was impeached for lying about Monica sucking his cock. He lied and got caught. I don't see that as a Constitutional issue. So what you're telling me is that the FBI and CIA need to agree on how to extract infformation. I'll buy that. As far as standing by the Constitution with stalwart resolve, you're wasting your time. We don't live in that world.

[ismeme]

Lying under oath, that's what the Repubs got him on. They argued that perjury is a high crime falling under "high crimes and misdemeanors".

You can dismiss the Constitution to defend and excuse the torture Bush authorized all you like. He knew what he was doing and that it was unnecessary...except to his desire to link AQ to Iraq.

[rrhynes]

Yes. He lied under oath about a blowjob. Moron. He should have bragged about it and they would have put him on the same pedestal as JFK. I'm not dismissing the Constituion or arguing about wether or not torture is prohibited, but I'm a pragmatist and a realist. Our government disregards that document and many other laws and rules because they have the notion they are above them.

[rrhynes]

And by the way, I'm not a Bush or Obama supporter. I'm not defending anyone. I have my own opinions about what we should or shouldn't be doing with terrorists. This post is about Olbermann and his rants, not mine. I think torture should be used, when necessary and if that torture is simply asking the same question a thousand times under bright lights or waterboarding, so be it. Whatever works. Let's just get on the same page.

[ismeme]

"And by the way, I'm not a Bush or Obama supporter."

Neither am I. I'm defending our laws and principles, something you seem altogether happy to let terrorists define for us.

[rrhynes]

You are a truly naive motherfucker. Do you honestly believe that we follow the Constitution to the letter? Wake the fuck up moron. You adn Olbermann can go jack over your own personal copy of the Constitution while the government figures out additional ways to circumvent it. You live in fantasy land, I try to live in reality.

[ismeme]

LOL. Do you honestly believe that because you call me names I'll take you any more seriously? If you want to live in reality, try educating yourself and stop being so naive that you believe everything your government tells you.

[rrhynes]

"And if he hadn't lied under oath about a blowjob he wouldn't have faced impeachment proceedings. Thanks for confirming what I already said, moron."

You drew first blood.

By the way, I'm not the one that takes everything the government tells me as being gospel. In fact, I don't believe much of what the government feeds us , either via text or video. You're the one quoting facts and figures that you got from the internet or some bathroom stall in the Middle East.

[ismeme]

"Yes. He lied under oath about a blowjob. Moron."

Perhaps I misread this. If I did I apologize.

"By the way, I'm not the one that takes everything the government tells me as being gospel."

And yet you believe waterboarding works.

[rrhynes]

I believe waterboarding works because, as a human being, I wouldn't want it done to me. I believe it will work on some people and not so well on others. Just as I believe talking to them will work in some cases and not in others. I'd like to keep it as an option.

[ismeme]

But you can't keep it as an option because it's illegal. Never mind you can't name a case where it's worked to support your belief that it "will work on some people".

[rrhynes]

This is true. However, I have no doubt it will work on some people. And in regards to it's legality, it is "illegal". I am not the one that made it legal or illegla, our illustrious leaders saw fit to do so. NOt so suprisingly, it happened anyway. As I said before, laws and the Constitution are just conveviences for these people. Still, I would advocate it , if it were legal.

[rrhynes]

And by the way, terrorists don't define or decide our actions. Our government decides what they want or should do when confronted with a problem. Congress, the CIA and the FBI , along with several other govt entities, decided to take this course of action. Who do you want to take the blame? Bush? Cheney? Someone has to be the scapegoat right? Just convict anyone and everyone that knew about it and I'm sure that will fix the problem forever.. kind of like the death penalty theory huh?

[ismeme]

The terrorists DO define our laws and principles when people like you decide it's okay to break our laws and forget our principles to fight them. How does stooping to their level make us better than them?

[rrhynes]

We aren't necessarily better then them. We are human beings, just as they are. Our religion, race or geographic location has nothing to do with it. This is how human beings interract. It's ugly somtimes.

[rrhynes]

I guess the unhappy residents of the middle east better set up their own governmnet and vote to stop terrorizing the rest of the world. For their own sake, that is what they had better get to doing. The rest of the world will only tolerate this for so many years.

[ismeme]

Iraq had its own government before we stepped in and helped install Saddam. We also gave Iran the Shah, whom the people rejected. I guess we'll never learn to stop spreading "freedom" for our own benefit. It's so much easier to blame the discontent on ungrateful populations.

[rrhynes]

Here's the big question. If the Taliban , Al-Qaida, etc ad infinitum gain control over the territory, do you believe everything will be normal? Time will tell, but I have mydoubts. These people, like India would rather let their minor religious differences and religion determine their course of action. I think of the middle east as I do AFrica. A friggin mess run by dictators.

[ismeme]

No, I do not. But I also have grave doubts about our ability to change what's already been set in motion using the tactics we're using. You can't fight ideas with bullets and bombs. Ultimately it will have to be the Muslim world that steps up and takes control. But they can't do that while we're inflaming the masses with acts of unprovoked aggression and the detention and torture of innocent civilians.

[rrhynes]

Ideas are not what crashed into the WTC or the Pentagon. And yes, the Muslim world, as I earlier stated, better get their collective shit together before they become the true enemies of the world.

[ismeme]

And if he hadn't lied under oath about a blowjob he wouldn't have faced impeachment proceedings. Thanks for confirming what I already said, moron.

So you're saying that two wrongs make a right? That's the best you've got? If you ever go up before a judge for a crime, try telling him you shouldn't be prosecuted because others have committed the same crime in the past and gotten away with it. Good luck with that.

[bjstinger18]

I honestly wasn't even aware that there was a question as to whether or not waterboarding was considered torture. I just thought that Cheney and the rest felt that the ends justified the means.

Sadly, I don't think this will change anything.

[silveramini]

Wow... just wow

[buddcinder]

when Hitchens was waterboarded they did it very differant. both are torture.

[Stormwern]

Does he say "facon" in the beginning? I hate facon.

[Ultimist]

Brilliant! 5 stars. Jail Cheney NOW!