@IvanKolosnik Of course i studied in the USA and very proud at least they don't brain wash us like your sorry country do to your guys since your in kindergarden tha Lenin is god and communist is the best. telling u what to eat what to buy and where not to go, you can keep your communism.
And yeah you are right about that amigo AVERAGE an poor people never take the decisions in well controlled by CIA an ARMY country, as your nation like's to make soviet joke's all the time i should say one american truth you don't control your own life money is controlling your life.
Life in Cuba is harsh but so is the situation in democratic and capitalist India, Argentina, Mexico and dozens of other countries – and mind you, Cuba is only a tiny land blockaded by the US.
Ah, talking of MILLIONS of impoverished Americans with no access to medical treatment or decent food – just wait a bit for the Greatest Depression, it’s soon to come.
So whom fault is that Cuba is under american- iron wall for the last 50 year now are even more, soviet fall "or probably you dickheads from USA don't even know that" right you shittting yankee an defenders of capitalism an the good imperialism why don't just go fuck your self, i live in the both systems an COMMUNISM is much more better than your fuck up capitalism, assholes.
@konokoshida yeah yeah stick your communism up in your ass and keep suffering cause we having a blast here in the USA. so suck my Cuban American cock.
@nikittoo1 why don't you suck my ex-soviet balls instead, o yeah you did it already ! you mongrel an now you keep sucking from China balls after all they overflow your NEW home country how is in Miami now capitalism is booming there i heard from Chinese goods.
@konokoshida Kiss Your balls?? who became capitalism the USA didn't become fuckin communist so kiss ur own balls fagget, and by the way who cares if china makes every merchandise better for us we have the money to buy what we want and your sorry russian ass doesnt have shit. so keep having your communist mentality you're doing very well.
@nikittoo1 how does it feel, to be exile an not to have a chance to go visit your own country ! i hope Cuba keep the communism forever an you to stay emigrant forever you piece of shit.
@konokoshida This shows you what an ignorant asshole you are, i can visit cuba whenever i want as many time as i want IAM A US CITIZEN AND WE GO EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD DONT FORGET THAT WE ARE NOT COMMUNIST YOU PIECE OF SHIT WE ARE A DEMOCRATIC NATION. DONT FORGET THAT.
@nikittoo1 yeah i wont forget that you are one piece of shit EMIGRANT an always will stay like that, tell mother fucker what you do in Cuba that comrade Castro deport you steal, kill or rape children's, fucking emigrant trash.
@konokoshida FYI the only one who kills in cuba are the castros brother, I left cuba! Im proud to be in the USA unlike you living in your piece of shit country.
@nikittoo1 Piece of shit country "Russia" haha what the hell they teach you in the yankees school ? do you even know how old is the Usa ! actually i i am not sure even if you know where exactly is Usa and i believe that. EMIGRANT "traitor" in other words another latin junk "go puff so cocaine or whatever you do there"
@nikittoo1 yeah we do become a Anarchy but we did something can't say the same bout Usa at all from the creation till now it's stays Jews emigrants an money. but still i don't need to tell you that you are just one shit emigrant nothing more. what Russia have is a secret an always be for ass holes like you but still we have enough potential to send the world in hell as your NEW home too. Yeah you are right yankees pay you good salary an you fill the chinese economy better that's nice of u.
@konokoshida You are a Joke what potential do russia have MIG"S from the 1960's and Rustys Tanks and we are happy to contribute to the chinese economy cause we have the money big deal unlike you that you're so proud of your socialism that you probably dont have any toilet paper to wipe your ass.
As an American I agree with you. Our system is out of fucking control. But please don"t confuse the very highup people making decisions for everyone with the average American. We are just as pissed off as everyone else
@227Morgan So i heard, China is keep growing more an more Russia is just staying still but your economy will collapse sooner or later if you the REAL americans don't do anything about it. after 20 an more year your government continue to build up weapons an trying to take over the world with so call it "democracy" if you average americans don't do anything at all to change that, the rest of the world will keep hate more an more. Look at your nation you have been overflowed by emigrants....
@227Morgan traitors, criminals an assholes, people who make shit in they're own country's and flee to usa, now probably have more emigrants than "native" yankees in your own country because your so call it democratic government collecting all the rubbish form the rest of the world. Be well
@nikitobu you sound like a typical Gusano and an enemy of the people. Im sure you enjoy your life in the US - the country which tries to shit on the world - and all your Cuban brothers and sisters- every day.
@LeftEdit FYI ITS A PLEASURE TO BE CALLED GUSANO BY COMMUNISTS LIKE YOURSELF, AND OF COURSE I ENJOY MY LIFE IN THE USA SO IS EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN'T TAKE ANY SHIT FROM FIDEL AND HIS DICTORSHIP THIS IS THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. AND IF YOU LIKE THE CASTROS BROTHER WHAT DONT YOU TAKE YOUR SORRY ASS TO CUBA AND LIVE THERE WE'LL SEE HOW LONG YOU'RE LAST.
@ENEMC Fidel? Its Raul now... do you read anything? the News perhaps? Even in the US they have news right? Or is it just run by multi-billionaires who shit all over you?
@nikitobu your comment is completely nonsensical. Working class Cubans have more democracy and freedom than any in the first world or third world. Its a society for the working class, by the working class. Perhaps Cubans do not have the freedom to create a bullshit religious dictatorship but who would want that anyways? Thats backwards. I know lots of Cubans who practice religion but being in control of the state, who wants that?
@Kitjune1996 well since you are not a US citizen you can go to Cuba, meet Cubans and learn about socialism in action! You should join a brigade and visit Cuba.
@nikittoo1 no one starves to death in a country where they give you a ration book of food... who ever you are and what ever you have... even during the 'special period' no one starved to death.
in fact many cubans now suffer from obesity! go do some research then talk.
@LeftEdit You are such a communist fanatatic what do you know about cuba? for your info i was born and raised there, Yes everything is rationed in cuba cause castro tells you what to eat and what to do and when u go to the grocery store to get your food they give u 1 lb of rice for the whole month, 1lb of coffee mixed with split pea beans and all the coffee machines are exploting, children older then 7 yrs old dont get any milk, Red meat and lobster its forbidden, one dozen of eggs per month
@nikittoo1 Tell us then what kids in Bolivia, Brasil, Mexico and in fact all over the Latin America get to eat and drink; and what happy lives they have.
No, I cant debate with you any more I can clearly see your class position on this issue and I don't think I can change your mind.
None the less, the Trot left like yourself are enemies. Im sure you have read Lenin's "Imperialism and the Split in Socialism". Half the stuff you have written on here about 'no freedom of press' and 'no right to travel' etc are based on lies, distortions and understanding it from a bourgeois perspective. You shut down discussion of Cuba.
"No. I can't debate with you any more I can clearly see your class position on this issue..." First, you do know that you have to click "Reply" in order for your reply to reach my e-mail, don't you? lol Your simple dichotomy of "U.S. imperialism vs. Cuba" itself doesn't have any class position. Where is your class position when it comes to suffering of Cuban working class? You are too busy worshiping Fidel Castro, that's what!
"I don't think I can change your mind." Are you that naive to think that you can actually change people's mind through simple debate? Plus, you have failed to counter my criticism of domestic issues of Cuba. "Trot left like yourself are enemies." This is typical trade of Stalinism. Trying to dominate your argument based upon labels like "Trotskyists", "reactionary" and even "bourgeois" to simply criminalize others' view without genuinely making your point.
If you really think that violation of human rights(I know, you are going to defend it by pointing out Cuban health care) such as "no freedom of press"(which Fidel Castro himself have admitted) and "no right to travel"(Cubans have no legal right to travel outside of Cuba and even migration is either very difficult or even impossible) are "based on lies, distortions and understanding it from a bourgeois perspective", one, you have truly earn your title "Stalinist".
Two, it prove that it is you who is truly a class traitor of Cuban working class. Just like so many wishful thinkers who illusion Cuba as "socialist" society, you can't debate about Cuba because more you get into it, you face your limit real quick. I was once in that position myself so I should know. "Anyways, good luck elsewhere"? You too. We might run into each others in youtube someday and then maybe we can unite against common capitalist enemies.
Im not at my limit with Cuba at all. And as much as you defend your point of view to not be "trotskyist" or to avoid that label, you quote British Trotskyist Callinicos and his 'competitive superpowers' analysis of US/USSR which I just dont follow.. and I think socialism CAN exist within one country. But lets agree to disagree for now.
Im gonna leave this here and thanks for all your remarks and comments comrade
I am defending my view as not being a "Trotskyist"? No, I AM a Trotskyist. I am not orthodox Trotskyist. I valued lot of his politic but that doesn't mean that I can't be critical of him. I just hope defenders of Castro can be as critical toward Castro as I am with Trotsky. And your disagree with "superpower imperialism" and support for "socialism in one country" once again proved that this issue is more than just "Cuba". Well, thank you for your debate and comment as well. :)
Cuba is not socialist. That nation is bureaucratic Stalinist. And with Stalinism I mean not Stalin style, but post 1956 reformist Stalinism.
Fidel Castro was a nationalist at first. But he became a Stalinist because he wanted support from the USSR. I cannot defend the political system of Cuba. The planned economy is not wrong, but win out democratic control of the workers it will fail. The workers of Cuba must control their economy and not state bureaucrats.
@UDSS I think the people of Cuba will decide if they are socialist or not- and at the moment, through the many workers unions, CDRs and youth movements they have decided they want to work on a path towards socialism.
Perhaps you live in a bubble, dreaming of what socialism could be like, but the Cubans do not and they are WAY ahead of us in achieving socialism (I assume you are from the US or Europe?)
If you are a socialist, you should support all socialist nations and anti imperialist movements
Cuban people should have right to determine the path of Cuba and it is also true that "socialism" may varied among different countries due to both historical and national relevancy of each countries. But one can't still deny the basic premise for international collaboration of workers' control and collective ownership of industries. To simply claim that "the people of Cuba will decide if they are socialist or not" lacks such substantial premise.
You made it sound like as if what socialism can basically alter without any substance based upon whether people are going to decide whether their country is "socialist". Many Russians and Eastern Europeans also decided that their countries are "socialist" and there are strong hostility against it without understanding genuine "socialism from below". Today's Cuban youth are significantly disconnected with Cuban Revolution and find propaganda of revolution as meaningless.
Recently young Hip-Hop activists in Cuba have criticized about the irrelevancy of Cuba's recent films on Cuban Revolution and Cuban TV shows showing people living in nice mansions while average Cuban people are suffering from lack of housings. Even Castro himself have admitted that state control press aren't going to allow views that criticize "socialism" or his leadership and in that sense Cuba doesn't have freedom of press in sense of Western world.
He defended by saying that Cuba have "different conception of freedom of press". lol How can you say that Cubans are "WAY ahead of us in achieving socialism" when their reforms are turning back for private industries. Raul Castro just recently made plan for laying off 500,000 workers of state job and give them licenses for self-employment. Not to mention creating independent political and labor movement from state power itself is prevented in Cuba, how can there be workers' power?
"If you are a socialist, you should support all socialist nations"? But thing is Cuba IS NOT a socialist nation. If you are a socialist, you should support workers' rights and struggles to maximize their power and support them to achieve new state power. And even if Cuba is "socialist" nation, any genuine socialists should still defend Cuban workers to maximize their role and participation for all social and political affairs.
First of all, there are Trotskyists who do support Cuba as "socialist" society. There are lot actually. What makes you think Trotskyist(or for that matter, myself) don't support revolutionary movement. I supported Cuban Revolution. I just don't recognize it as "socialism". West doesn't have freedom of press. That's definitely true and that's why Trotskyist in the West are fighting against it same way they are criticizing Cuba for it.
Defenders of Cuba often defend Cuba's lack of democracy by pointing out that democracy doesn't exist in West either. They aren't incapble of seeing such self-contradiction because it is not democracy that they are fighting for but rather they choose to be mindless cheerleaders for Cuba. Your No. 2 doesn't change the fact that Cuba is headed to private system and this isn't the first time. Criticism is permitted in Cuba as long as one is in right framework just like they do in U.S..
Liberal medias in U.S. also criticizes political power and foreign policy as long as it is done under the framework of defending capitalism and imperialism. Cuban political system can't be criticized publicly nor can there be any independent political movement that challenges Cuban leadership. Youth organizations in Cuba(just like unions) are still part of state organ and their "mobilization" serve that term. There is nothing "Marxist" about that.
You sound like some liberal or anarchist. Its completely depressing. You say you 'support' the Cuban revolution but are completely reactionary to the Cuban reality. Perhaps you think 99% literacy and 100% free healthcare under a country which is economically blockaded and attacked by the US and its supporters is 'easy'. Perhaps you wish for third world country like Cuba to return to the barbarism like what is seen in Haiti?
Let me correct you(or myself with usage of such term) of "defenders of Cuba". When I used that term, I was referring to those who are defenders of Cuban regime as "socialist" but I definitely didn't mean to position myself as "anti-Cuba". I support Cuban Revolution as revolution for national liberation from U.S. imperialism(same way I do with Iranian and Chinese Revolutions). And I definitely recognize some progressive outcome from such revolution.
Some of examples that you have mentioned like rise of literacy and health care are undeniably important accomplishment of Cuban liberation from U.S. imperialism. However, you must not confuse yourself that any same outcome have same motive. Such high literacy itself in Cuba is something to praise but you have to understand that for average Cuban people, such literacy can only be implied for information system like media and educations that are all under government control.
As a country where leaders and people share common enemy which is U.S. imperialism, you can't expect leaders to have and maintain their power over people when people are illiterate. This is the exact case with North Korea. They have high literacy and education is provided for all. And every factories also get to have two hours break for political discussions. However, you must ask what are their references to utilize their high literacy?
Like Cuba, their references comes from various information that are all under government control. And as Fidel Castro himself have admitted in his interview with Barbara Walter, that any oppositional views that are critical toward Cuban leadership or "socialism" are being blocked in Cuba and that if we are to use the term "freedom of press" in Western context, then according to Castro, "Cuba does not have freedom of press."
It will be wrong to assume that high literacy in Cuba is to be viewed simply as progressive instrument of greater sovereignty for Cuban working class. But I think it is also wrong to simply blame Cuban leaders alone for such restrictive operation. Such system works because it is also related with imperialist threats of U.S.. I am not ignoring the role of U.S. imperialism in relation to their embargo, military intervention and constant attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro.
What really helps Castro's dictatorship is its relationship with U.S. imperialism and despite the fact that Cuban people are critical toward their leaders, it is U.S. imperialism that is pushing them to unite with their leaders. As critical I am with Cuban regime, I support Cuban people's right to self-determination and defend their unity with their leaders against U.S. imperialism as their common enemy.
It is common for those wishful thinkers of "Cuban socialism" to accuse other socialists who doesn't recognize Cuba as socialist society and are critical toward Castro's regime as either "anti-Cuba" or Westerners who attempt to tell Cubans how to live. Whether Cubans unite with their leaders against U.S. imperialism or mobilize against their leaders is their business and I support their decisions regardless of which they choose.
However there are difference between opposing and fighting against U.S. imperialism against Cuba and defending Cuban regime that are as exploiters against Cuban working class as any capitalist societies. My denouncement of Cuba being socialist society isn't directed against Cuban people but is directed against Stalinists and orthodox Trotskyists in Western world who do recognize Cuba as alternative as post-capitalist world and marginalizing the reality of Cuban working class.
Tell me, what does 'freedom of press' mean? Freedom for who? What world do you live in?The Cuban state media is exceptional + provides high level Marxist analysis of the world.Trots like yourself wish Cubans to be more 'free' and 'decentralised workers control' etc but WHY do you not support this new employment scheme to INCREASE cooperatives + decentralised production? Damned if you do damned if you dont, eh? Cant please a Trot, high in the sky telling the poor how to live.
And sure Cuban state media provides "high level of Marxist analysis of the world" especially if countries in these world are Cuba's enemies. Marxist analysis of U.S. capitalism and all its self-contradictions not only works for Marxists in U.S. to have better understanding of U.S. capitalism but it also works to justify Cuban system for such isolated Cuban citizens. However, does such Marxist analysis of state media also work to analyze Cuban society?
Such as discrimination against Cuban blacks and Cuban government's opposition against gay right for marriage? How about Marxist analysis of the fact that documentary called "Young Rebels" which is basically about Cuban hip-hop activists' criticism of Cuban society in relation to basic inequality between rich and poor, strong disconnection of today's Cuban youth with glorious past of Cuban Revolution and many others were never shown in Cuba?
Like I said, this doesn't mean such undemocratic operation of media doesn't exist in Western world of capitalism. However that doesn't justify selective approach toward Cuba only for any favorable perspectives. "[D]ecentralized workers' control"? I never used that term. You seem to have simple dichotomy between "centralized plan economy" and "decentralized workers' control". Workers' control of means of production can be done in combination of both local and central.
The poor and oppressed of the world support Cuba- why dont the Trotskyists? And what 'revolution' exactly have the Trots ever created?Why do all the great Marxists all speak highly of Cuban socialism?All attempts to ever break the chains of capitalism and imperialism have stemmed from Marxist Leninist thought and practice. Read the great Paulo Freire, who spoke highly of Cuba + told us how any revolutionary should live - in solidarity with the oppressed. Whos side are you on?
Cuba is supported by many. And their resiliency against U.S. imperialism is undeniably inspirational. Let's face it. The fact that such a small island can overthrow a regime that was backed by U.S. imperialism and that Castro's leadership defended themselves successfully in "Bay of Pig" do give great hopes for those who want to overthrow imperialism. In this regard, "[t]he poor and oppressed of the world support Cuba".
In this aspect, same is true with North Korea. I myself am from South Korea and I have encountered many people from Latin America and Middle East who have shared their favorable view toward Kim Jung Il for "standing up to U.S. imperialism". And as much as it is true that both cases are very refreshing against U.S. imperialism, it is definitely wrong to translate that into justification of these regimes. And Cuba is also being supported due to their international contribution.
Whether it was medical supports for countries that are in needs or military support for countries that are struggling against U.S. imperialism. I am not denying Cuba's role nor the idea of supporting Cuba from U.S. imperialism. It is wrongful notion of recognizing Cuba as socialist society when Cuban working class are excluded from state power that I am disagreeing with. "Why do all the great Marxists all speak highly of Cuban socialism?"
That is because Marxism that have been dominant in socialist tradition of last couple of decades were Stalinism or if there were any Trotskyists, they were "orthodox Trotskyists". Who's references have been centrally on Cold War propaganda(Washington vs. Moscow) in Stalinist case or fetish for state power and nationalization to prevent any private property in orthodox Trotskyists' case.
Trotskyists' recognition of Cuba as "socialist" society really relates with Trotsky's recognition of Russia after 1918 as "workers' state" which Lenin criticized as "pointless" and "abstraction" when one consider the degeneration of workers' sovereignty in Russia after 1918 due to civil war and famine. Trotskyists who recognize Cuba as "socialist" society are basically repeating the same orthodoxy that Lenin criticized as "pointless" and "abstraction".
"[I]n solidarity with the oppressed"? I am completely with you. But question is, if you truly support international working class in solidarity, who's side are you on between Cuban regime and Cuban working class? And I am not talking about Cuban right for self-determination against U.S. imperialism which I support as I have stated. And I never stated anything about "'independent' political movement" "in regards to Cuban society".
And finally - what 'independent' political movement are you referring to, in regards to Cuban society? Do you think Fidel was not a great Marxist? Are you MAD? Do you wish for a 'revolution within the revolution' akin to Solidarnos in Poland? You're a back-warded reactionary and condemn the poor and oppressed to fail and descend back into capitalism.
What have you been reading to spout all this anti-Cuban crap? Please tell us.
I was noting about the independent political movements of working class in Cuba if workers' power are being exercised in Cuba as socialist society same way soviets were independent body of workers from Bosheviks until civil war in 1918 in Russia. Do I think Fidel was not a great Marxist? His manifesto for socialism as Cuban model was his political gesture of embracing Soviet Union as new ally. Such question is irrelevant.
More relavant question in relation to Cuba and socialism is whether how strong and militant class consciousness is among Cuban working class. Most Cubans who are old enough to remember pre-revolutionary period would definitely prefer Castro over Batista and they are absolutely right on that. However, many of older generation of Cuban people's view of Castro is that Castro did made great contribution of building new nation and Cubans were better off with him than Batista.
This is so despite the fact that many Cubans are still bitter about Castro's dictatorship. This is also true with Chinese who are old enough to remember "Mao era" and Mao Zedong himself. Both are relatively celebrated not as socialist leaders but national leaders without whom, their countries would have went down the drain under imperialist rules. Your accusation of me being "reactionary" seems to be typical Stalinist method positioning anyone who disagree as opponent of socialism.
Based upon my experiences with debating other socialist comrades about Cuba and socialism is that they seem to think in terms of simple dichotomy. One either recognize Cuba as socialist and support them, or if not, one oppose them. Or one don't recognize Cuba as socialist and don't recognize any good about Cuba. And often their recognition of progressive aspect about Cuban society is highly selective.
And they seem to end up neglecting all the problematic aspect about Cuban society which may leave any genuine socialists with some doubts. Which in my opinion results neglecting actual component of Cuban working class for state propaganda, policy, records and speculations. As I disagree and criticize some of these socialists comrades as simple "wishful thinking", I also sympathize with them because I myself was once "wishful thinker" for Cuba as "socialist" society.
This reply is too long.. I cant reply in 500 word limits to 5000 words
OK, so lets get this straight- Your point seems to rely on the assumption that there is no genuine workers control in Cuba socialism? What are your sources or what theorists do you rely on to come to this conclusion?
LOL!!!! If I could have, I would have wrote lot shorter replies. Once again I do apologize for such long replies. Both you and I used the term "workers' control" but this also can mean many things. Are there "workers' control" in capitalist society? When workers are experienced enough to have better understanding of their environment, how the business is being run and their fellow co-workers, there are "workers' control" in capitalist society as well(as funny as it might sound).
Under such conditions, many workers don't necessarily have to reply on their bosses or sometimes bosses have enough trust with workers that they could leave their businesses for their workers to "control" for their personal reasons. That's really small part of "workers' control" and that exist in capitalist society as well as it is true in Cuba. But "workers' control" means lot more when we say it in socialist camp.
It's actual dictating operation and ownership of means of production by workers. I personally don't rely on right-wing resources on Cuba even though I think we can't solely ignore it without any counterarguments. Let's look at simple facts that who were the models for Che Guevara that he admired and suggested that Cuba should follow? It was Maoist China and North Korea. There were/are no "workers' control" in these countries in the form of "socialism from below".
Like Cuba, these countries(along with Eastern European bloc) emphasize more on catching up with West which lead to prioritization of increasing labor force, productivity, accumulation of capital and increasing population of workers(which led to institutionalizing heterosexual marriage as means of reproductions). This wasn't done under workers' control but rather was done under top management of state bureaucrats. Fidel Castro himself have emphasized "selfless sacrifice" was workers.
This is same rhetoric that was played under China, North Korea and even in South Korea under military dictatorship. Was such rhetoric implied for actual productions under workers' control? I find that to be highly unconvincing. And when we also consider Castro's interview with Barbara Walter in regarding "freedom of press" in Cuba, it is also unconvincing that such press system is under workers' control.
When Cuban hip-hop activists criticized the irrelevancy of Cuban TV shows that portrayed people living in nice mansion while many Cubans are suffering from low housing, it is quite unconvincing that such media is controlled by workers. You can see a documentary called "Fidel" where they show Cuban workers incapable of making any contribution but rather are in position to request things that are in needs(like public transportation) to state shows that workers aren't in control.
But how concretely can this 'true' workers control you speak of be possible without a state infrastructure? The reality is that in order for the working class to take control they must be organised.In Cuba they are-through the state apparatus and its organs of popular power.Do you think state officials are ruling class bureaucrats?Well, bureaucracy should be fought but comparing it to the oppressive capitalist ruling class is wrong.
I wasn't speaking about workers' control without state infrastructure or other wise I would have been an anarchist. lol But is state apparatus in Cuba really organ of working class? Do I think state officials in Cuba are ruling class bureaucrats? Yes if we look at the relation of production between Cuban working class and these bureaucrats.
Exactly. And those bureaucrats you refer to in your 'bureaucratic state dictatorship' analysis are WORKING CLASS bureaucrats. Who organise, mobilise and theorise. Sure, question them for their bureaucracy but not for their class instincts and activism. You should watch the film and think again after listening to the people in it who support Cuban socialism.
and about the Cuban hip hop artists- well that shows there is freedom of speech, doesnt it?Were they oppressed or imprisoned for voicing 'decent'?
And WHAT were they saying?We cant just assume they have good opinions because they are 'rappers'. Or can we assume Cuba has 'no problems/racism/inequality' to talk about on a song.
One party system - The people of Cuba clash thoughts/perspectives every day when they work together through the state organs. They dont need parties!
But as I have stated "Young Rebels" weren't released in Cuba. It wasn't even made by Cubans themselves. This was actually played in LINK TV in U.S. which is leftist station that also played other documentary that portrayed Cuba more in favorable light. Those hip-hop activists were from working class family and all of them were struggling in their society and witnessed inequality. I don't think there aren't single criticism against Cuba inside Cuba itself.
There are certain level of tolerance but when criticism is directed in outside of framework of defending Cuban model or leadership, then they could get into troubles. There are many political prisoners in Cuba and not everyone of them are Miami spies. Castro himself have admitted the existence of political prisoners and number is actually lot smaller than what Amnesty International makes. But then again such "tolerance" also existed in military dictatorship in South Korea as well.
you contradict yourself in regards to political prisoners in Cuba. There are many, or few? What are you saying? Yes, Cuba imprisons those who wage a war of sabotage and US funded mercenary activity in Cuba. It also imprisons people who take funds from the US to 'distribute leaflets' or to 'buy satellite phones' etc.
"I" am contradicting "myself"? I was giving you two different affirmations about political prisoners in Cuba. One by Fidel Castro and other by Amnesty International and their numbers were contradicting. And quite predictably, numbers that was admitted by Castro was shorter than those from Amnesty International. It is true that there have been many Miami spies and as you said "Cuba is at war". However, it is also important to note that not every political prisoners are Miami spies.
As much as you are right that "Cuba imprisons those who wage a war of sabotage and U.S. funded mercenary activity", it is also true that in Cuba journalists, professors and likes who have publicly criticized Castro's leadership are also harassed, imprisoned or simply "disappears" like Stalinist Russia or even South Korea under military dictatorship. One autobiography of Cuban refugee even stated that in relation to Che Guevara's absence from Cuban society.
Che was actually in Bolivia helping out their struggles but due to its secretive operation, Cuban people weren't aware of it until he was killed. However, during Che's absence from Cuban society, many Cuban people weren't really shocked about his absence because such "disappearance" was quite common in Cuba due to government's intervention and restriction of those who are publicly critical toward Castro's leadership.
It will be wrong to assume that all political prisoners in Cuba are U.S. funded terrorists. Like I said, oppressive system in Cuba shouldn't simply be recognized as exclusive operation of Cuban leaders alone but are connected with U.S. interventionism. It is U.S. intervention that also justify limiting democracy and freedom of speech in Cuba by grouping others who are critical toward Cuban leaderships with Miami spies. That's combination of politic of fear and oppression.
That's how "war on terror" works in Western world(especially in U.S.) and that's how North Korea implies their "National Betrayal Crime" and South Korea's "National Security Act" since they are still at war with each others. Such condition of relationship actually give leaders greater capacity of oppression and limiting freedom of speech and democracy. Cuban case is identical even though Cuba isn't really that much of threat to U.S. while U.S. is.
Fidel Castro even supported one party system in Cuba in his autobiographical interview(in his "My Life") that political administrations are lot easier without too many different perspectives and he even exemplified European politic in relation to it. Castro's idea of efficient operation is operation without any disagreement or different opinions but one decision that have been made by those who are in power. This is restriction of freedom of speech.
And to assume that this is somehow workers' control that led to such system is highly unconvincing. Even Lenin stated in his "What Is To Be Done?" that socialists are going to "compete" with each others with different views and that's how democracy works as form of dialogues and debate for synthesis that are decided by workers and socialists. Castro himself have admitted that Cuban system prevent this.
My doubts started not from some right-wing propaganda but from very sources from Cuba itself. Whether it's documentary("Young Rebels" is good one), Fidel Castro's speeches(his autobiographical interview revealed certain things that made me doubt as well), Paul D'Amato wrote a book called "The Meaning of Marxism" where he partially deals with Cuba and he also wrote an article titled "Cuba:Myth and Reality" in International Socialist Review couple of years ago.
Clara Nieto's "Master of War" also portrayed Cuba in a way that help me defend it but question whether it is a society under workers' control. And I used to be active with Socialist Workers Party(USA) which was Trotskyist group that strongly supported Cuba as a socialist society. That's when I started my wishful thinking but more references(including their own) really didn't help me to be convinced. They even said that there is no exploitation and racism in Cuba which isn't true.
Samuel Farber is a socialist who's originally from Cuba and he denounce the idea of Cuba being a socialist society. I have heard his talk and along with other references, I find it to be more convincing. And more than that, it is some of statements made by Castro(which I have mentioned earlier) that really made me doubt. Major unconvincing views came from socialists who recognizes Cuba as a socialist society.
Their views always have been inclined more toward stronger emphasis on problem of capitalism(which I agree) and shied away from problems in Cuba.(And some of them are major one like lack of democracy) Or often play this role of emphasizing toning down any criticism of Cuba since we all have common enemy - U.S. imperialism. Their arguments, partial selective evidences and logic are strongly unconvincing and I personally find their honesty to be even questionable.
The problems which Cuba has overcome should be celebrated whilst supporting the revolutionary movement to sort out its ongoing issues- embargo, inequalities, societal prejudices, raising production- etc.
No Cuban ever said Cuba was perfect. That would be an illusionary way of thinking. It is a complex process on the path to socialism which you should support rather than waste ur time whilst the BIG problem-capitalism/imperialism continues to reign terror over the worlds poor.
"No Cuban ever said Cuba was perfect." I agree and my problem was never with Cuban people(most Cubans I have met were far more objective than American socialists who are pro-Castro) but more with pro-Castro socialists. Socialists in U.S. should fight against U.S. embargo and other imperialist threats against Cuba whether they recognize Cuba as socialist society or not. I have admitted this.
However, when it comes to argument about Cuban society, I think many of pro-Castro socialists have this what you called "illusionary way of thinking." And as I stated, their method of argument is highly unconvincing because their "illusion" have tendency to unveil the actuality of Cuban condition. I don't recognize Cuba to be in "path to socialism" and I do support Cuba's right for self-determination without recognizing Cuba as socialist. There is difference there.
And one more thing. I do not "waste [my] time" on criticizing Cuba. That's not my priority. My priority involve with more progressive movement against capitalism and imperialism. You are the first person whom I got into debate about whether Cuba is a socialist society or not.
comrade- but you have read up in to a lot of this theory which criticises Cuba and holds it down along side the capitalist world. Its not progressive and misses the point.
Cant you see the support which Cubans have sent to Venezuela, Haiti, Bolivia, Africa? Do you think this solidarity is just a coincidence?
Cuba sent 1400 doctors to Haiti! and 400 had been there for the last 10 years!!! This is the product of socialism- which apparently you contribute to nationalism?!
I also have read some supports for Castro's Cuba. As I stated earlier, I started with defending Castro's leadership with wishful thinking of Cuba as successful socialist case. But I lost my convinction on that. Like I said one of major reason that Cuba receive such supports internationally is their contribution both medically and militarily. This should be defended and praised.
However that doesn't mean we should ignore the major domestic problem in Cuba either. I feel I seem to be the one who want to recognize both accomplishments and problems of Cuba while many pro-Castro socialists have tendency to embrace the favorable one while brushing off the unfavorable ones underneath the rug. "[P]roduct of socialism"? See, it is that kind of simplification that I disagree.
I didn't use the term "achievement" if I shall be rigidly correct(lol) but I used the term "accomplishment" and didn't really considered such "accomplishment" as "socialist". So your reply of "so you praise all of the socialist achievements of Cuba but refuse to call it socialist?" contradict with my view. See, that's common logic that many socialists who recognize Cuba as "socialist" have.
Do any of Cuba's accomplishment like good health care, their medical contribution to other countries indicates that Cuba is a socialist society? It is true under socialism those will be all practiced. But it doesn't prove that society is a "socialist" simply because those have been practiced. If so, countries like Sweden, Norway and Finland will all be considered "socialist" societies due to their progressive achievements like health care, education and stronger trade unions.
Wrong, countries like Sweden, Norway and Finland are capitalist and support Imperialism. This is where your understanding fails- these countries build wonderful health systems etc on imperialist plunder and capitalist extraction and war. Trotskyist underplays imperialism.. no surprise.
You are VERY idealistic and think that Cubans are not capable of building socialism- but it sounds like you are? Perhaps if you were Raul you would do a better job? Of course.
I never said Sweden, Norway and Finland aren't "capitalist and support imperialism." My point was that simple conclusion that Cuba is a "socialist" because of certain progressive programs inside Cuba doesn't indicate that Cuba is a "socialist". IF those are the factors that qualify countries as "socialist" then those countries which I have mentioned should be also considered "socialist" which I am exemplifying because the idea of considering those countries are "socialist" is false.
"Trotskyist underplays imperialism"? It depends on which "Trotskyists". There are plenty of orthodox Trotskyists who are basically no different from Stalinists who think they are being "anti-imperialist" because they supported countries of Soviet bloc which are another form of imperialism. I think it is you who is being idealistic if you think small island like Cuba can somehow become socialist society while it is surrounded by globally dominant capitalism and imperialism.
sorry to go on... but you also said 'you think small island like Cuba can somehow become socialist society while it is surrounded by globally dominant capitalism and imperialism.' Typical Trot angle - we must have world revolution! we must show the poor how to rebel! bullshit comrade and you know it. the Cubans have are BUILDING a better society now. How can you deny them the right to struggle? they must state somewhere and fight back?
"Typical Trot angle - we must have world revolution!" Do you even know what Trotsky's view of revolution was? It was Trotsky who embraced the idea of continuing revolution which ended as October Revolution from February Revolution which overthrew Tsar. It was not until April of 1917 that Lenin embraced this "permanent revolution". So for your information, Trotsky's view of revolution was identical with Lenin's and later such theory was also embraced for national revolution too.
There are two aspects of why socialism can't be established in one country. First was noted by Marx and Engels that competitions situates capitalists to outproduce others by spending more for upgrading means of production. As they stated in "The Communist Manifesto" that "[t]the bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of productions, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society."
Accumulation of capital and exploitation of workers are necessary in order for capitalists to maintain their subsistence from competitions from each others. This is one of main reason why European social democracy is falling behind U.S. and "Asian Tigers" from economic competitions due to their lesser accumulation for more progressive distribution such as better educations, health cares and so on. And as capitalism become more global, competitions increase within nationalities.
This was the case in 19th Century already because capitalism was globally expanding. Even Rosa Luxemburg stated that socialism can't be build in one country while there are global competition of capitalism because maintaining subsistence will be extremely difficult unless that "socialist" country adopts similar kind of managerial operation that capitalist societies have in order for maintain and survive in competitions.
This is what Cold War was. Soviet bloc was competing with bloc of U.S. imperialism(and no Soviet Union wasn't "anti-imperialist") and both have to outperform each others whether it was accumulation of capital for concentration of military establishments, technologies to launching satellites and building nuclear weapons or expanding their blocs and creating their client states, they were both situated to compete with each others in global capitalist framework.
When Stalin said that Soviet Union was 50 years behind West and needs to catch up within 10 years, this was his competitive managements. And level of exploitation of Russian workers were more severe than any capitalist societies under Stalin's "5 Years Plan in 4 Years". Considering the fact that every countries under Soviet bloc were underdeveloped, it was necessary and justifiable to increase accumulation of capital and exploitation of workers in the propaganda of "catch up".
What Cold War was is reducing the number of "inter-imperialism"(to use Kautsky and Lenin's term) into U.S. and Soviet Union as result of WWII which was "inter-imperialism" of six globally dominant nations. Alex Callinicos who is a member of Socialist Workers Party(Britain) rightfully noted that what Cold War really was, was "superpower imperialism". Only difference was U.S. was/is capitalism of private property while Soviet Union was capitalism of state ownership.
And this is how Cuba should be viewed. As I've stated, what is preventing Cuba to build socialism is there is combination of power structure between Cuban ruling class and U.S. imperialism. It is U.S.,threat that is forcing Cuba to accumulate more for concentration of military force and stricter regulation against democracy in Cuba. This was my point when I wrote "small island like Cuba" can't build socialism "while it is surrounded by globally dominant capitalism and imperialism."
I never mentioned anything about denying Cubans' right to struggle. It is Castro's leadership and his bureaucratic ruling class that is denying Cubans' right to struggle. And there is another aspect of why one country can't establish socialism. Marx and Engels emphasized the importance of rich material conditions. Marx favored Britain as a possible first country to make socialist revolution while Trotsky favored U.S. as a desirable country to make first socialist revolution.
Every revolutionaries from both First and Second International supported international world revolution but nobody believed that it could have simultaneously. Since that was the fact of reality during 19th and early 20th Century among working class, many revolutionaries supported international struggles. But at same time they favored socialist revolution to be first established in more industrially rich country due to their capability for progressive economic influences.
And that industrially backward country like Russia to initiate the first socialist revolution wasn't supported by any revolutionaries at that time including Lenin. But the idea that Russia still can make workers' revolution and play the forerunner for international socialist revolution was first embraced by Leon Trotsky who theorized the fact that capitalist class haven't fully developed in Russia and also the fact that there were major class struggles in other European countries.
So as for your statement - "Typical Trot angle - we must have world revolution! we must show the poor how to rebel!" It basically shows how ignorant you are with Trotsky's revolutionary politic. That's actually typical Stalinist fabrication of Trotsky's view of revolution. Cubans should struggle and we should express our solidarity with them whenever we can whether they are struggling against U.S. imperialism by uniting with Castro or struggling against Cuban ruling class.
However, fact of the matter is Cuba can't exclusively build socialism independently unless there are other socialist revolution in other industrially advanced countries. Like I wrote before, you are playing "Latin sensitivity" card by framing my view as if I am underestimating Cuban people and yet you are one who is a biggest liar who deny the robbery of democracy for Cuban people by their leaders that you worship.
Many wishful thinkers who idealize Cuba as socialist often play this "Latin sensitivity" card and frame this debate as if those who doesn't recognize Cuba as socialist society are those who underestimate the capability of third world Cubans while it is an idealist like you who are shying away from actual political oppression, economic exploitation, robbery of their freedom of speech, press and assembly.
Like I state before, I find that it is Cubans that I have met who are more realistic and objective about Cuba where they are more critical and affirmative about both negative and positive aspects about Cuban politic. And this also reminds me of speech that I heard from this North Korean detainee who said that both left and right in South Korea seems to care more about their agenda with North Korea(whether it's "for" or "against" North Korea) than is about actual North Korean people.
And that's how I feel about wishful thinkers who idealize and praise Cuba as "socialist" society. It appear as if it is more about their agenda of justifying socialism by using Cuba rather than critically viewing Cuban society and their leadership at same time, defending Cuban working class against their dictators for some of injustice and scarcity that they are suffering. See THIS is why actual Cubans are more realistic about Cuba while someone like you are more idealistic.
"Perhaps if [I am] Raul [I] would do a better job?" See that is the prove of your Stalinist paternalism. Castro brothers, along with U.S. imperialism are obstacles of building socialism in Cuba. It is U.S. imperialism that situates Cuba to prioritize their self-determination(which time after time, I stated that I support) and it was/is Castro brothers who use that relation to repress the population by replacing class issue for self-determination.
Socialists who idealize Cuba as "socialist" society do make good analysis of Cuban society and make contribution of understanding why Cuban society is the way it is. However, the major mark of their misleading conclusion is that they always seems to start with basic presupposition that Cuba is socialist society rather than analyzing Cuba whether it is socialist society. And they always fall into problem that defending Cuba is defending socialism.
This leaves them(and you) of being very bias where they(and you) exaggerates the positive aspects of Cuba and conclude that Cuba is socialist society or shy away from negative ones(which are major aspects in relation to democracy in Cuba) by claiming that it is same with capitalism, defending Castro's dictatorship by ENTIRELY blaming U.S. imperialism or use a logic of cultural relativism. And in result, they(and you) marginalize Cuban working class for your socialist agenda.
que ridiculo
MGCubanHistory 4 months ago
Hi! Please change the link ratb.org.uk/ratb_film.html to ratb.org.uk/our-documentary.
adribon 7 months ago
Oh! What a force of argumentation! How mighty logic you employ! How powerful reasoning you bring forward!
You must have attended the American public school, indeed you must have!!
IvanKolosnik 7 months ago
@IvanKolosnik Of course i studied in the USA and very proud at least they don't brain wash us like your sorry country do to your guys since your in kindergarden tha Lenin is god and communist is the best. telling u what to eat what to buy and where not to go, you can keep your communism.
nikittoo1 in reply to IvanKolosnik (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1
if you studied in USA since childhood, you're just as brainwashed too.
227Morgan in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@227Morgan Dude you've got to be a neglected child w a really fucked up up bringing for you to say this when you live in the USA.
nikittoo1 in reply to 227Morgan (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1
No, just a kid who went through the public school system. We are taught outright lies and it's not ok
227Morgan in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
And yeah you are right about that amigo AVERAGE an poor people never take the decisions in well controlled by CIA an ARMY country, as your nation like's to make soviet joke's all the time i should say one american truth you don't control your own life money is controlling your life.
konokoshida 7 months ago
Life in Cuba is harsh but so is the situation in democratic and capitalist India, Argentina, Mexico and dozens of other countries – and mind you, Cuba is only a tiny land blockaded by the US.
Ah, talking of MILLIONS of impoverished Americans with no access to medical treatment or decent food – just wait a bit for the Greatest Depression, it’s soon to come.
IvanKolosnik 7 months ago
@IvanKolosnik you are such a ignorant piece of shit you make me laugh.
nikittoo1 in reply to IvanKolosnik (Show the comment) 7 months ago
So whom fault is that Cuba is under american- iron wall for the last 50 year now are even more, soviet fall "or probably you dickheads from USA don't even know that" right you shittting yankee an defenders of capitalism an the good imperialism why don't just go fuck your self, i live in the both systems an COMMUNISM is much more better than your fuck up capitalism, assholes.
konokoshida 7 months ago
@konokoshida yeah yeah stick your communism up in your ass and keep suffering cause we having a blast here in the USA. so suck my Cuban American cock.
nikittoo1 in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1 why don't you suck my ex-soviet balls instead, o yeah you did it already ! you mongrel an now you keep sucking from China balls after all they overflow your NEW home country how is in Miami now capitalism is booming there i heard from Chinese goods.
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida Kiss Your balls?? who became capitalism the USA didn't become fuckin communist so kiss ur own balls fagget, and by the way who cares if china makes every merchandise better for us we have the money to buy what we want and your sorry russian ass doesnt have shit. so keep having your communist mentality you're doing very well.
nikittoo1 in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1 how does it feel, to be exile an not to have a chance to go visit your own country ! i hope Cuba keep the communism forever an you to stay emigrant forever you piece of shit.
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida This shows you what an ignorant asshole you are, i can visit cuba whenever i want as many time as i want IAM A US CITIZEN AND WE GO EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD DONT FORGET THAT WE ARE NOT COMMUNIST YOU PIECE OF SHIT WE ARE A DEMOCRATIC NATION. DONT FORGET THAT.
nikittoo1 in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1 yeah i wont forget that you are one piece of shit EMIGRANT an always will stay like that, tell mother fucker what you do in Cuba that comrade Castro deport you steal, kill or rape children's, fucking emigrant trash.
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida FYI the only one who kills in cuba are the castros brother, I left cuba! Im proud to be in the USA unlike you living in your piece of shit country.
nikittoo1 in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1 Piece of shit country "Russia" haha what the hell they teach you in the yankees school ? do you even know how old is the Usa ! actually i i am not sure even if you know where exactly is Usa and i believe that. EMIGRANT "traitor" in other words another latin junk "go puff so cocaine or whatever you do there"
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida haha yea also he watches jersey shore with latin Whores. Exactly what the shit is emigrant traitor
RedMusicSinging in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 2 months ago
@nikittoo1 yeah we do become a Anarchy but we did something can't say the same bout Usa at all from the creation till now it's stays Jews emigrants an money. but still i don't need to tell you that you are just one shit emigrant nothing more. what Russia have is a secret an always be for ass holes like you but still we have enough potential to send the world in hell as your NEW home too. Yeah you are right yankees pay you good salary an you fill the chinese economy better that's nice of u.
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida You are a Joke what potential do russia have MIG"S from the 1960's and Rustys Tanks and we are happy to contribute to the chinese economy cause we have the money big deal unlike you that you're so proud of your socialism that you probably dont have any toilet paper to wipe your ass.
nikittoo1 in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1 uh-huh keep talking emigrant i am interested to listen more of the shit coming from your mouth.
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida of course you're interested cause everything i've said to your sorry ass life its true. DAMN I LOVE THE USA.
nikittoo1 in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@nikittoo1 tc, yo love Usa shithead next time learn the difference between the usa and MONEY emigrant asshole.
konokoshida in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@konokoshida
As an American I agree with you. Our system is out of fucking control. But please don"t confuse the very highup people making decisions for everyone with the average American. We are just as pissed off as everyone else
227Morgan in reply to konokoshida (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@227Morgan So i heard, China is keep growing more an more Russia is just staying still but your economy will collapse sooner or later if you the REAL americans don't do anything about it. after 20 an more year your government continue to build up weapons an trying to take over the world with so call it "democracy" if you average americans don't do anything at all to change that, the rest of the world will keep hate more an more. Look at your nation you have been overflowed by emigrants....
konokoshida in reply to 227Morgan (Show the comment) 7 months ago
@227Morgan traitors, criminals an assholes, people who make shit in they're own country's and flee to usa, now probably have more emigrants than "native" yankees in your own country because your so call it democratic government collecting all the rubbish form the rest of the world. Be well
konokoshida in reply to 227Morgan (Show the comment) 7 months ago
Viva la Cuba
AtheismCentral 9 months ago
@nikitobu you sound like a typical Gusano and an enemy of the people. Im sure you enjoy your life in the US - the country which tries to shit on the world - and all your Cuban brothers and sisters- every day.
LeftEdit in reply to nikitobu (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit FYI ITS A PLEASURE TO BE CALLED GUSANO BY COMMUNISTS LIKE YOURSELF, AND OF COURSE I ENJOY MY LIFE IN THE USA SO IS EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN'T TAKE ANY SHIT FROM FIDEL AND HIS DICTORSHIP THIS IS THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. AND IF YOU LIKE THE CASTROS BROTHER WHAT DONT YOU TAKE YOUR SORRY ASS TO CUBA AND LIVE THERE WE'LL SEE HOW LONG YOU'RE LAST.
nikitobu in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@nikitobu best country in the world america has destroyed so many countries just so that it get money
crudstickles in reply to nikitobu (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@crudstickles Destryed?? United States is the only country helping everyone else.
nikittoo1 in reply to crudstickles (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@nikittoo1 lol >.< like Iraq? I have no idea what your definition of help is....
crudstickles in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@ENEMC Fidel? Its Raul now... do you read anything? the News perhaps? Even in the US they have news right? Or is it just run by multi-billionaires who shit all over you?
LeftEdit in reply to ENEMC (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@nikitobu your comment is completely nonsensical. Working class Cubans have more democracy and freedom than any in the first world or third world. Its a society for the working class, by the working class. Perhaps Cubans do not have the freedom to create a bullshit religious dictatorship but who would want that anyways? Thats backwards. I know lots of Cubans who practice religion but being in control of the state, who wants that?
LeftEdit in reply to nikitobu (Show the comment) 1 year ago
Im a canadian socialist and this make me want to live in cuba
Kitjune1996 1 year ago
@Kitjune1996 well since you are not a US citizen you can go to Cuba, meet Cubans and learn about socialism in action! You should join a brigade and visit Cuba.
LeftEdit 1 year ago
@Kitjune1996 YEAH GO LIVE IN CUBA SO U CAN STARVE TO DEATH
nikittoo1 9 months ago
@nikittoo1 nobody starves to death there faggot
rbouverat in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 8 months ago
@nikittoo1 no one starves to death in a country where they give you a ration book of food... who ever you are and what ever you have... even during the 'special period' no one starved to death.
in fact many cubans now suffer from obesity! go do some research then talk.
LeftEdit in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 8 months ago
@LeftEdit You are such a communist fanatatic what do you know about cuba? for your info i was born and raised there, Yes everything is rationed in cuba cause castro tells you what to eat and what to do and when u go to the grocery store to get your food they give u 1 lb of rice for the whole month, 1lb of coffee mixed with split pea beans and all the coffee machines are exploting, children older then 7 yrs old dont get any milk, Red meat and lobster its forbidden, one dozen of eggs per month
nikittoo1 in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 8 months ago
@nikittoo1 Tell us then what kids in Bolivia, Brasil, Mexico and in fact all over the Latin America get to eat and drink; and what happy lives they have.
IvanKolosnik in reply to nikittoo1 (Show the comment) 7 months ago
Many Thanks!
cubasi2010 1 year ago
thanxx for sharing this great video
workergirls 1 year ago
No, I cant debate with you any more I can clearly see your class position on this issue and I don't think I can change your mind.
None the less, the Trot left like yourself are enemies. Im sure you have read Lenin's "Imperialism and the Split in Socialism". Half the stuff you have written on here about 'no freedom of press' and 'no right to travel' etc are based on lies, distortions and understanding it from a bourgeois perspective. You shut down discussion of Cuba.
Anyways, good luck elsewhere.
LeftEdit 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"No. I can't debate with you any more I can clearly see your class position on this issue..." First, you do know that you have to click "Reply" in order for your reply to reach my e-mail, don't you? lol Your simple dichotomy of "U.S. imperialism vs. Cuba" itself doesn't have any class position. Where is your class position when it comes to suffering of Cuban working class? You are too busy worshiping Fidel Castro, that's what!
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"I don't think I can change your mind." Are you that naive to think that you can actually change people's mind through simple debate? Plus, you have failed to counter my criticism of domestic issues of Cuba. "Trot left like yourself are enemies." This is typical trade of Stalinism. Trying to dominate your argument based upon labels like "Trotskyists", "reactionary" and even "bourgeois" to simply criminalize others' view without genuinely making your point.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
If you really think that violation of human rights(I know, you are going to defend it by pointing out Cuban health care) such as "no freedom of press"(which Fidel Castro himself have admitted) and "no right to travel"(Cubans have no legal right to travel outside of Cuba and even migration is either very difficult or even impossible) are "based on lies, distortions and understanding it from a bourgeois perspective", one, you have truly earn your title "Stalinist".
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Two, it prove that it is you who is truly a class traitor of Cuban working class. Just like so many wishful thinkers who illusion Cuba as "socialist" society, you can't debate about Cuba because more you get into it, you face your limit real quick. I was once in that position myself so I should know. "Anyways, good luck elsewhere"? You too. We might run into each others in youtube someday and then maybe we can unite against common capitalist enemies.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
Im not at my limit with Cuba at all. And as much as you defend your point of view to not be "trotskyist" or to avoid that label, you quote British Trotskyist Callinicos and his 'competitive superpowers' analysis of US/USSR which I just dont follow.. and I think socialism CAN exist within one country. But lets agree to disagree for now.
Im gonna leave this here and thanks for all your remarks and comments comrade
On with the show as you say.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I am defending my view as not being a "Trotskyist"? No, I AM a Trotskyist. I am not orthodox Trotskyist. I valued lot of his politic but that doesn't mean that I can't be critical of him. I just hope defenders of Castro can be as critical toward Castro as I am with Trotsky. And your disagree with "superpower imperialism" and support for "socialism in one country" once again proved that this issue is more than just "Cuba". Well, thank you for your debate and comment as well. :)
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
Greetings from the UK. I am coming to Cuba in 3 weeks and I cant wait.
Well done Cuba you have shown the World that there is " another way"..
THESTAFFIECHANNEL 1 year ago
Cuba is not socialist. That nation is bureaucratic Stalinist. And with Stalinism I mean not Stalin style, but post 1956 reformist Stalinism.
Fidel Castro was a nationalist at first. But he became a Stalinist because he wanted support from the USSR. I cannot defend the political system of Cuba. The planned economy is not wrong, but win out democratic control of the workers it will fail. The workers of Cuba must control their economy and not state bureaucrats.
Cuba needs genuine socialism.
UDSS 1 year ago
@UDSS I think the people of Cuba will decide if they are socialist or not- and at the moment, through the many workers unions, CDRs and youth movements they have decided they want to work on a path towards socialism.
Perhaps you live in a bubble, dreaming of what socialism could be like, but the Cubans do not and they are WAY ahead of us in achieving socialism (I assume you are from the US or Europe?)
If you are a socialist, you should support all socialist nations and anti imperialist movements
LeftEdit in reply to UDSS (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Cuban people should have right to determine the path of Cuba and it is also true that "socialism" may varied among different countries due to both historical and national relevancy of each countries. But one can't still deny the basic premise for international collaboration of workers' control and collective ownership of industries. To simply claim that "the people of Cuba will decide if they are socialist or not" lacks such substantial premise.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
You made it sound like as if what socialism can basically alter without any substance based upon whether people are going to decide whether their country is "socialist". Many Russians and Eastern Europeans also decided that their countries are "socialist" and there are strong hostility against it without understanding genuine "socialism from below". Today's Cuban youth are significantly disconnected with Cuban Revolution and find propaganda of revolution as meaningless.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Recently young Hip-Hop activists in Cuba have criticized about the irrelevancy of Cuba's recent films on Cuban Revolution and Cuban TV shows showing people living in nice mansions while average Cuban people are suffering from lack of housings. Even Castro himself have admitted that state control press aren't going to allow views that criticize "socialism" or his leadership and in that sense Cuba doesn't have freedom of press in sense of Western world.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
He defended by saying that Cuba have "different conception of freedom of press". lol How can you say that Cubans are "WAY ahead of us in achieving socialism" when their reforms are turning back for private industries. Raul Castro just recently made plan for laying off 500,000 workers of state job and give them licenses for self-employment. Not to mention creating independent political and labor movement from state power itself is prevented in Cuba, how can there be workers' power?
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"If you are a socialist, you should support all socialist nations"? But thing is Cuba IS NOT a socialist nation. If you are a socialist, you should support workers' rights and struggles to maximize their power and support them to achieve new state power. And even if Cuba is "socialist" nation, any genuine socialists should still defend Cuban workers to maximize their role and participation for all social and political affairs.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
argh! I knew thatTrotskyists do not support any revolutionary movement that ever existed- and that includes Cuba!
Im afraid I cant answer in youtube's 500 char. All I can say is that:
1/The West does not have 'freedom of press'
2/New employment changes in Cuba are to stop unproductive labour and move people into more productive jobs (but you would know nothin about that..)
3/Criticism and decent IS permitted in Cuba
4/Cuban Youth are more active + 'marxist' than yourself
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
First of all, there are Trotskyists who do support Cuba as "socialist" society. There are lot actually. What makes you think Trotskyist(or for that matter, myself) don't support revolutionary movement. I supported Cuban Revolution. I just don't recognize it as "socialism". West doesn't have freedom of press. That's definitely true and that's why Trotskyist in the West are fighting against it same way they are criticizing Cuba for it.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Defenders of Cuba often defend Cuba's lack of democracy by pointing out that democracy doesn't exist in West either. They aren't incapble of seeing such self-contradiction because it is not democracy that they are fighting for but rather they choose to be mindless cheerleaders for Cuba. Your No. 2 doesn't change the fact that Cuba is headed to private system and this isn't the first time. Criticism is permitted in Cuba as long as one is in right framework just like they do in U.S..
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Liberal medias in U.S. also criticizes political power and foreign policy as long as it is done under the framework of defending capitalism and imperialism. Cuban political system can't be criticized publicly nor can there be any independent political movement that challenges Cuban leadership. Youth organizations in Cuba(just like unions) are still part of state organ and their "mobilization" serve that term. There is nothing "Marxist" about that.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
You sound like some liberal or anarchist. Its completely depressing. You say you 'support' the Cuban revolution but are completely reactionary to the Cuban reality. Perhaps you think 99% literacy and 100% free healthcare under a country which is economically blockaded and attacked by the US and its supporters is 'easy'. Perhaps you wish for third world country like Cuba to return to the barbarism like what is seen in Haiti?
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Let me correct you(or myself with usage of such term) of "defenders of Cuba". When I used that term, I was referring to those who are defenders of Cuban regime as "socialist" but I definitely didn't mean to position myself as "anti-Cuba". I support Cuban Revolution as revolution for national liberation from U.S. imperialism(same way I do with Iranian and Chinese Revolutions). And I definitely recognize some progressive outcome from such revolution.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Some of examples that you have mentioned like rise of literacy and health care are undeniably important accomplishment of Cuban liberation from U.S. imperialism. However, you must not confuse yourself that any same outcome have same motive. Such high literacy itself in Cuba is something to praise but you have to understand that for average Cuban people, such literacy can only be implied for information system like media and educations that are all under government control.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
As a country where leaders and people share common enemy which is U.S. imperialism, you can't expect leaders to have and maintain their power over people when people are illiterate. This is the exact case with North Korea. They have high literacy and education is provided for all. And every factories also get to have two hours break for political discussions. However, you must ask what are their references to utilize their high literacy?
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Like Cuba, their references comes from various information that are all under government control. And as Fidel Castro himself have admitted in his interview with Barbara Walter, that any oppositional views that are critical toward Cuban leadership or "socialism" are being blocked in Cuba and that if we are to use the term "freedom of press" in Western context, then according to Castro, "Cuba does not have freedom of press."
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
It will be wrong to assume that high literacy in Cuba is to be viewed simply as progressive instrument of greater sovereignty for Cuban working class. But I think it is also wrong to simply blame Cuban leaders alone for such restrictive operation. Such system works because it is also related with imperialist threats of U.S.. I am not ignoring the role of U.S. imperialism in relation to their embargo, military intervention and constant attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
What really helps Castro's dictatorship is its relationship with U.S. imperialism and despite the fact that Cuban people are critical toward their leaders, it is U.S. imperialism that is pushing them to unite with their leaders. As critical I am with Cuban regime, I support Cuban people's right to self-determination and defend their unity with their leaders against U.S. imperialism as their common enemy.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
It is common for those wishful thinkers of "Cuban socialism" to accuse other socialists who doesn't recognize Cuba as socialist society and are critical toward Castro's regime as either "anti-Cuba" or Westerners who attempt to tell Cubans how to live. Whether Cubans unite with their leaders against U.S. imperialism or mobilize against their leaders is their business and I support their decisions regardless of which they choose.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
However there are difference between opposing and fighting against U.S. imperialism against Cuba and defending Cuban regime that are as exploiters against Cuban working class as any capitalist societies. My denouncement of Cuba being socialist society isn't directed against Cuban people but is directed against Stalinists and orthodox Trotskyists in Western world who do recognize Cuba as alternative as post-capitalist world and marginalizing the reality of Cuban working class.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
Tell me, what does 'freedom of press' mean? Freedom for who? What world do you live in?The Cuban state media is exceptional + provides high level Marxist analysis of the world.Trots like yourself wish Cubans to be more 'free' and 'decentralised workers control' etc but WHY do you not support this new employment scheme to INCREASE cooperatives + decentralised production? Damned if you do damned if you dont, eh? Cant please a Trot, high in the sky telling the poor how to live.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And sure Cuban state media provides "high level of Marxist analysis of the world" especially if countries in these world are Cuba's enemies. Marxist analysis of U.S. capitalism and all its self-contradictions not only works for Marxists in U.S. to have better understanding of U.S. capitalism but it also works to justify Cuban system for such isolated Cuban citizens. However, does such Marxist analysis of state media also work to analyze Cuban society?
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Such as discrimination against Cuban blacks and Cuban government's opposition against gay right for marriage? How about Marxist analysis of the fact that documentary called "Young Rebels" which is basically about Cuban hip-hop activists' criticism of Cuban society in relation to basic inequality between rich and poor, strong disconnection of today's Cuban youth with glorious past of Cuban Revolution and many others were never shown in Cuba?
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Like I said, this doesn't mean such undemocratic operation of media doesn't exist in Western world of capitalism. However that doesn't justify selective approach toward Cuba only for any favorable perspectives. "[D]ecentralized workers' control"? I never used that term. You seem to have simple dichotomy between "centralized plan economy" and "decentralized workers' control". Workers' control of means of production can be done in combination of both local and central.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
The poor and oppressed of the world support Cuba- why dont the Trotskyists? And what 'revolution' exactly have the Trots ever created?Why do all the great Marxists all speak highly of Cuban socialism?All attempts to ever break the chains of capitalism and imperialism have stemmed from Marxist Leninist thought and practice. Read the great Paulo Freire, who spoke highly of Cuba + told us how any revolutionary should live - in solidarity with the oppressed. Whos side are you on?
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Cuba is supported by many. And their resiliency against U.S. imperialism is undeniably inspirational. Let's face it. The fact that such a small island can overthrow a regime that was backed by U.S. imperialism and that Castro's leadership defended themselves successfully in "Bay of Pig" do give great hopes for those who want to overthrow imperialism. In this regard, "[t]he poor and oppressed of the world support Cuba".
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
In this aspect, same is true with North Korea. I myself am from South Korea and I have encountered many people from Latin America and Middle East who have shared their favorable view toward Kim Jung Il for "standing up to U.S. imperialism". And as much as it is true that both cases are very refreshing against U.S. imperialism, it is definitely wrong to translate that into justification of these regimes. And Cuba is also being supported due to their international contribution.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Whether it was medical supports for countries that are in needs or military support for countries that are struggling against U.S. imperialism. I am not denying Cuba's role nor the idea of supporting Cuba from U.S. imperialism. It is wrongful notion of recognizing Cuba as socialist society when Cuban working class are excluded from state power that I am disagreeing with. "Why do all the great Marxists all speak highly of Cuban socialism?"
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
That is because Marxism that have been dominant in socialist tradition of last couple of decades were Stalinism or if there were any Trotskyists, they were "orthodox Trotskyists". Who's references have been centrally on Cold War propaganda(Washington vs. Moscow) in Stalinist case or fetish for state power and nationalization to prevent any private property in orthodox Trotskyists' case.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Trotskyists' recognition of Cuba as "socialist" society really relates with Trotsky's recognition of Russia after 1918 as "workers' state" which Lenin criticized as "pointless" and "abstraction" when one consider the degeneration of workers' sovereignty in Russia after 1918 due to civil war and famine. Trotskyists who recognize Cuba as "socialist" society are basically repeating the same orthodoxy that Lenin criticized as "pointless" and "abstraction".
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"[I]n solidarity with the oppressed"? I am completely with you. But question is, if you truly support international working class in solidarity, who's side are you on between Cuban regime and Cuban working class? And I am not talking about Cuban right for self-determination against U.S. imperialism which I support as I have stated. And I never stated anything about "'independent' political movement" "in regards to Cuban society".
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
And finally - what 'independent' political movement are you referring to, in regards to Cuban society? Do you think Fidel was not a great Marxist? Are you MAD? Do you wish for a 'revolution within the revolution' akin to Solidarnos in Poland? You're a back-warded reactionary and condemn the poor and oppressed to fail and descend back into capitalism.
What have you been reading to spout all this anti-Cuban crap? Please tell us.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I was noting about the independent political movements of working class in Cuba if workers' power are being exercised in Cuba as socialist society same way soviets were independent body of workers from Bosheviks until civil war in 1918 in Russia. Do I think Fidel was not a great Marxist? His manifesto for socialism as Cuban model was his political gesture of embracing Soviet Union as new ally. Such question is irrelevant.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
More relavant question in relation to Cuba and socialism is whether how strong and militant class consciousness is among Cuban working class. Most Cubans who are old enough to remember pre-revolutionary period would definitely prefer Castro over Batista and they are absolutely right on that. However, many of older generation of Cuban people's view of Castro is that Castro did made great contribution of building new nation and Cubans were better off with him than Batista.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
This is so despite the fact that many Cubans are still bitter about Castro's dictatorship. This is also true with Chinese who are old enough to remember "Mao era" and Mao Zedong himself. Both are relatively celebrated not as socialist leaders but national leaders without whom, their countries would have went down the drain under imperialist rules. Your accusation of me being "reactionary" seems to be typical Stalinist method positioning anyone who disagree as opponent of socialism.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Based upon my experiences with debating other socialist comrades about Cuba and socialism is that they seem to think in terms of simple dichotomy. One either recognize Cuba as socialist and support them, or if not, one oppose them. Or one don't recognize Cuba as socialist and don't recognize any good about Cuba. And often their recognition of progressive aspect about Cuban society is highly selective.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And they seem to end up neglecting all the problematic aspect about Cuban society which may leave any genuine socialists with some doubts. Which in my opinion results neglecting actual component of Cuban working class for state propaganda, policy, records and speculations. As I disagree and criticize some of these socialists comrades as simple "wishful thinking", I also sympathize with them because I myself was once "wishful thinker" for Cuba as "socialist" society.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
One last thing, I also apologize for such a long reply. :))))
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
This reply is too long.. I cant reply in 500 word limits to 5000 words
OK, so lets get this straight- Your point seems to rely on the assumption that there is no genuine workers control in Cuba socialism? What are your sources or what theorists do you rely on to come to this conclusion?
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
LOL!!!! If I could have, I would have wrote lot shorter replies. Once again I do apologize for such long replies. Both you and I used the term "workers' control" but this also can mean many things. Are there "workers' control" in capitalist society? When workers are experienced enough to have better understanding of their environment, how the business is being run and their fellow co-workers, there are "workers' control" in capitalist society as well(as funny as it might sound).
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Under such conditions, many workers don't necessarily have to reply on their bosses or sometimes bosses have enough trust with workers that they could leave their businesses for their workers to "control" for their personal reasons. That's really small part of "workers' control" and that exist in capitalist society as well as it is true in Cuba. But "workers' control" means lot more when we say it in socialist camp.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
It's actual dictating operation and ownership of means of production by workers. I personally don't rely on right-wing resources on Cuba even though I think we can't solely ignore it without any counterarguments. Let's look at simple facts that who were the models for Che Guevara that he admired and suggested that Cuba should follow? It was Maoist China and North Korea. There were/are no "workers' control" in these countries in the form of "socialism from below".
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Like Cuba, these countries(along with Eastern European bloc) emphasize more on catching up with West which lead to prioritization of increasing labor force, productivity, accumulation of capital and increasing population of workers(which led to institutionalizing heterosexual marriage as means of reproductions). This wasn't done under workers' control but rather was done under top management of state bureaucrats. Fidel Castro himself have emphasized "selfless sacrifice" was workers.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
This is same rhetoric that was played under China, North Korea and even in South Korea under military dictatorship. Was such rhetoric implied for actual productions under workers' control? I find that to be highly unconvincing. And when we also consider Castro's interview with Barbara Walter in regarding "freedom of press" in Cuba, it is also unconvincing that such press system is under workers' control.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
When Cuban hip-hop activists criticized the irrelevancy of Cuban TV shows that portrayed people living in nice mansion while many Cubans are suffering from low housing, it is quite unconvincing that such media is controlled by workers. You can see a documentary called "Fidel" where they show Cuban workers incapable of making any contribution but rather are in position to request things that are in needs(like public transportation) to state shows that workers aren't in control.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
But how concretely can this 'true' workers control you speak of be possible without a state infrastructure? The reality is that in order for the working class to take control they must be organised.In Cuba they are-through the state apparatus and its organs of popular power.Do you think state officials are ruling class bureaucrats?Well, bureaucracy should be fought but comparing it to the oppressive capitalist ruling class is wrong.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I wasn't speaking about workers' control without state infrastructure or other wise I would have been an anarchist. lol But is state apparatus in Cuba really organ of working class? Do I think state officials in Cuba are ruling class bureaucrats? Yes if we look at the relation of production between Cuban working class and these bureaucrats.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
Exactly. And those bureaucrats you refer to in your 'bureaucratic state dictatorship' analysis are WORKING CLASS bureaucrats. Who organise, mobilise and theorise. Sure, question them for their bureaucracy but not for their class instincts and activism. You should watch the film and think again after listening to the people in it who support Cuban socialism.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
and about the Cuban hip hop artists- well that shows there is freedom of speech, doesnt it?Were they oppressed or imprisoned for voicing 'decent'?
And WHAT were they saying?We cant just assume they have good opinions because they are 'rappers'. Or can we assume Cuba has 'no problems/racism/inequality' to talk about on a song.
One party system - The people of Cuba clash thoughts/perspectives every day when they work together through the state organs. They dont need parties!
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
But as I have stated "Young Rebels" weren't released in Cuba. It wasn't even made by Cubans themselves. This was actually played in LINK TV in U.S. which is leftist station that also played other documentary that portrayed Cuba more in favorable light. Those hip-hop activists were from working class family and all of them were struggling in their society and witnessed inequality. I don't think there aren't single criticism against Cuba inside Cuba itself.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
There are certain level of tolerance but when criticism is directed in outside of framework of defending Cuban model or leadership, then they could get into troubles. There are many political prisoners in Cuba and not everyone of them are Miami spies. Castro himself have admitted the existence of political prisoners and number is actually lot smaller than what Amnesty International makes. But then again such "tolerance" also existed in military dictatorship in South Korea as well.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
you contradict yourself in regards to political prisoners in Cuba. There are many, or few? What are you saying? Yes, Cuba imprisons those who wage a war of sabotage and US funded mercenary activity in Cuba. It also imprisons people who take funds from the US to 'distribute leaflets' or to 'buy satellite phones' etc.
Cuba is at war, dont forget that.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"I" am contradicting "myself"? I was giving you two different affirmations about political prisoners in Cuba. One by Fidel Castro and other by Amnesty International and their numbers were contradicting. And quite predictably, numbers that was admitted by Castro was shorter than those from Amnesty International. It is true that there have been many Miami spies and as you said "Cuba is at war". However, it is also important to note that not every political prisoners are Miami spies.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
As much as you are right that "Cuba imprisons those who wage a war of sabotage and U.S. funded mercenary activity", it is also true that in Cuba journalists, professors and likes who have publicly criticized Castro's leadership are also harassed, imprisoned or simply "disappears" like Stalinist Russia or even South Korea under military dictatorship. One autobiography of Cuban refugee even stated that in relation to Che Guevara's absence from Cuban society.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Che was actually in Bolivia helping out their struggles but due to its secretive operation, Cuban people weren't aware of it until he was killed. However, during Che's absence from Cuban society, many Cuban people weren't really shocked about his absence because such "disappearance" was quite common in Cuba due to government's intervention and restriction of those who are publicly critical toward Castro's leadership.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
It will be wrong to assume that all political prisoners in Cuba are U.S. funded terrorists. Like I said, oppressive system in Cuba shouldn't simply be recognized as exclusive operation of Cuban leaders alone but are connected with U.S. interventionism. It is U.S. intervention that also justify limiting democracy and freedom of speech in Cuba by grouping others who are critical toward Cuban leaderships with Miami spies. That's combination of politic of fear and oppression.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
That's how "war on terror" works in Western world(especially in U.S.) and that's how North Korea implies their "National Betrayal Crime" and South Korea's "National Security Act" since they are still at war with each others. Such condition of relationship actually give leaders greater capacity of oppression and limiting freedom of speech and democracy. Cuban case is identical even though Cuba isn't really that much of threat to U.S. while U.S. is.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Fidel Castro even supported one party system in Cuba in his autobiographical interview(in his "My Life") that political administrations are lot easier without too many different perspectives and he even exemplified European politic in relation to it. Castro's idea of efficient operation is operation without any disagreement or different opinions but one decision that have been made by those who are in power. This is restriction of freedom of speech.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And to assume that this is somehow workers' control that led to such system is highly unconvincing. Even Lenin stated in his "What Is To Be Done?" that socialists are going to "compete" with each others with different views and that's how democracy works as form of dialogues and debate for synthesis that are decided by workers and socialists. Castro himself have admitted that Cuban system prevent this.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
My doubts started not from some right-wing propaganda but from very sources from Cuba itself. Whether it's documentary("Young Rebels" is good one), Fidel Castro's speeches(his autobiographical interview revealed certain things that made me doubt as well), Paul D'Amato wrote a book called "The Meaning of Marxism" where he partially deals with Cuba and he also wrote an article titled "Cuba:Myth and Reality" in International Socialist Review couple of years ago.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Clara Nieto's "Master of War" also portrayed Cuba in a way that help me defend it but question whether it is a society under workers' control. And I used to be active with Socialist Workers Party(USA) which was Trotskyist group that strongly supported Cuba as a socialist society. That's when I started my wishful thinking but more references(including their own) really didn't help me to be convinced. They even said that there is no exploitation and racism in Cuba which isn't true.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Samuel Farber is a socialist who's originally from Cuba and he denounce the idea of Cuba being a socialist society. I have heard his talk and along with other references, I find it to be more convincing. And more than that, it is some of statements made by Castro(which I have mentioned earlier) that really made me doubt. Major unconvincing views came from socialists who recognizes Cuba as a socialist society.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Their views always have been inclined more toward stronger emphasis on problem of capitalism(which I agree) and shied away from problems in Cuba.(And some of them are major one like lack of democracy) Or often play this role of emphasizing toning down any criticism of Cuba since we all have common enemy - U.S. imperialism. Their arguments, partial selective evidences and logic are strongly unconvincing and I personally find their honesty to be even questionable.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
The problems which Cuba has overcome should be celebrated whilst supporting the revolutionary movement to sort out its ongoing issues- embargo, inequalities, societal prejudices, raising production- etc.
No Cuban ever said Cuba was perfect. That would be an illusionary way of thinking. It is a complex process on the path to socialism which you should support rather than waste ur time whilst the BIG problem-capitalism/imperialism continues to reign terror over the worlds poor.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"No Cuban ever said Cuba was perfect." I agree and my problem was never with Cuban people(most Cubans I have met were far more objective than American socialists who are pro-Castro) but more with pro-Castro socialists. Socialists in U.S. should fight against U.S. embargo and other imperialist threats against Cuba whether they recognize Cuba as socialist society or not. I have admitted this.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
However, when it comes to argument about Cuban society, I think many of pro-Castro socialists have this what you called "illusionary way of thinking." And as I stated, their method of argument is highly unconvincing because their "illusion" have tendency to unveil the actuality of Cuban condition. I don't recognize Cuba to be in "path to socialism" and I do support Cuba's right for self-determination without recognizing Cuba as socialist. There is difference there.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And one more thing. I do not "waste [my] time" on criticizing Cuba. That's not my priority. My priority involve with more progressive movement against capitalism and imperialism. You are the first person whom I got into debate about whether Cuba is a socialist society or not.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
comrade- but you have read up in to a lot of this theory which criticises Cuba and holds it down along side the capitalist world. Its not progressive and misses the point.
Cant you see the support which Cubans have sent to Venezuela, Haiti, Bolivia, Africa? Do you think this solidarity is just a coincidence?
Cuba sent 1400 doctors to Haiti! and 400 had been there for the last 10 years!!! This is the product of socialism- which apparently you contribute to nationalism?!
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I also have read some supports for Castro's Cuba. As I stated earlier, I started with defending Castro's leadership with wishful thinking of Cuba as successful socialist case. But I lost my convinction on that. Like I said one of major reason that Cuba receive such supports internationally is their contribution both medically and militarily. This should be defended and praised.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
However that doesn't mean we should ignore the major domestic problem in Cuba either. I feel I seem to be the one who want to recognize both accomplishments and problems of Cuba while many pro-Castro socialists have tendency to embrace the favorable one while brushing off the unfavorable ones underneath the rug. "[P]roduct of socialism"? See, it is that kind of simplification that I disagree.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
so you praise all of the socialist achievements of Cuba but refuse to call it socialist?
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I didn't use the term "achievement" if I shall be rigidly correct(lol) but I used the term "accomplishment" and didn't really considered such "accomplishment" as "socialist". So your reply of "so you praise all of the socialist achievements of Cuba but refuse to call it socialist?" contradict with my view. See, that's common logic that many socialists who recognize Cuba as "socialist" have.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Do any of Cuba's accomplishment like good health care, their medical contribution to other countries indicates that Cuba is a socialist society? It is true under socialism those will be all practiced. But it doesn't prove that society is a "socialist" simply because those have been practiced. If so, countries like Sweden, Norway and Finland will all be considered "socialist" societies due to their progressive achievements like health care, education and stronger trade unions.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
Wrong, countries like Sweden, Norway and Finland are capitalist and support Imperialism. This is where your understanding fails- these countries build wonderful health systems etc on imperialist plunder and capitalist extraction and war. Trotskyist underplays imperialism.. no surprise.
You are VERY idealistic and think that Cubans are not capable of building socialism- but it sounds like you are? Perhaps if you were Raul you would do a better job? Of course.
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I never said Sweden, Norway and Finland aren't "capitalist and support imperialism." My point was that simple conclusion that Cuba is a "socialist" because of certain progressive programs inside Cuba doesn't indicate that Cuba is a "socialist". IF those are the factors that qualify countries as "socialist" then those countries which I have mentioned should be also considered "socialist" which I am exemplifying because the idea of considering those countries are "socialist" is false.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"Trotskyist underplays imperialism"? It depends on which "Trotskyists". There are plenty of orthodox Trotskyists who are basically no different from Stalinists who think they are being "anti-imperialist" because they supported countries of Soviet bloc which are another form of imperialism. I think it is you who is being idealistic if you think small island like Cuba can somehow become socialist society while it is surrounded by globally dominant capitalism and imperialism.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky
sorry to go on... but you also said 'you think small island like Cuba can somehow become socialist society while it is surrounded by globally dominant capitalism and imperialism.' Typical Trot angle - we must have world revolution! we must show the poor how to rebel! bullshit comrade and you know it. the Cubans have are BUILDING a better society now. How can you deny them the right to struggle? they must state somewhere and fight back?
LeftEdit in reply to unorthodoxtrotsky (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"Typical Trot angle - we must have world revolution!" Do you even know what Trotsky's view of revolution was? It was Trotsky who embraced the idea of continuing revolution which ended as October Revolution from February Revolution which overthrew Tsar. It was not until April of 1917 that Lenin embraced this "permanent revolution". So for your information, Trotsky's view of revolution was identical with Lenin's and later such theory was also embraced for national revolution too.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
There are two aspects of why socialism can't be established in one country. First was noted by Marx and Engels that competitions situates capitalists to outproduce others by spending more for upgrading means of production. As they stated in "The Communist Manifesto" that "[t]the bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of productions, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society."
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Accumulation of capital and exploitation of workers are necessary in order for capitalists to maintain their subsistence from competitions from each others. This is one of main reason why European social democracy is falling behind U.S. and "Asian Tigers" from economic competitions due to their lesser accumulation for more progressive distribution such as better educations, health cares and so on. And as capitalism become more global, competitions increase within nationalities.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
This was the case in 19th Century already because capitalism was globally expanding. Even Rosa Luxemburg stated that socialism can't be build in one country while there are global competition of capitalism because maintaining subsistence will be extremely difficult unless that "socialist" country adopts similar kind of managerial operation that capitalist societies have in order for maintain and survive in competitions.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
This is what Cold War was. Soviet bloc was competing with bloc of U.S. imperialism(and no Soviet Union wasn't "anti-imperialist") and both have to outperform each others whether it was accumulation of capital for concentration of military establishments, technologies to launching satellites and building nuclear weapons or expanding their blocs and creating their client states, they were both situated to compete with each others in global capitalist framework.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
When Stalin said that Soviet Union was 50 years behind West and needs to catch up within 10 years, this was his competitive managements. And level of exploitation of Russian workers were more severe than any capitalist societies under Stalin's "5 Years Plan in 4 Years". Considering the fact that every countries under Soviet bloc were underdeveloped, it was necessary and justifiable to increase accumulation of capital and exploitation of workers in the propaganda of "catch up".
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
What Cold War was is reducing the number of "inter-imperialism"(to use Kautsky and Lenin's term) into U.S. and Soviet Union as result of WWII which was "inter-imperialism" of six globally dominant nations. Alex Callinicos who is a member of Socialist Workers Party(Britain) rightfully noted that what Cold War really was, was "superpower imperialism". Only difference was U.S. was/is capitalism of private property while Soviet Union was capitalism of state ownership.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And this is how Cuba should be viewed. As I've stated, what is preventing Cuba to build socialism is there is combination of power structure between Cuban ruling class and U.S. imperialism. It is U.S.,threat that is forcing Cuba to accumulate more for concentration of military force and stricter regulation against democracy in Cuba. This was my point when I wrote "small island like Cuba" can't build socialism "while it is surrounded by globally dominant capitalism and imperialism."
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
I never mentioned anything about denying Cubans' right to struggle. It is Castro's leadership and his bureaucratic ruling class that is denying Cubans' right to struggle. And there is another aspect of why one country can't establish socialism. Marx and Engels emphasized the importance of rich material conditions. Marx favored Britain as a possible first country to make socialist revolution while Trotsky favored U.S. as a desirable country to make first socialist revolution.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Every revolutionaries from both First and Second International supported international world revolution but nobody believed that it could have simultaneously. Since that was the fact of reality during 19th and early 20th Century among working class, many revolutionaries supported international struggles. But at same time they favored socialist revolution to be first established in more industrially rich country due to their capability for progressive economic influences.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And that industrially backward country like Russia to initiate the first socialist revolution wasn't supported by any revolutionaries at that time including Lenin. But the idea that Russia still can make workers' revolution and play the forerunner for international socialist revolution was first embraced by Leon Trotsky who theorized the fact that capitalist class haven't fully developed in Russia and also the fact that there were major class struggles in other European countries.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
So as for your statement - "Typical Trot angle - we must have world revolution! we must show the poor how to rebel!" It basically shows how ignorant you are with Trotsky's revolutionary politic. That's actually typical Stalinist fabrication of Trotsky's view of revolution. Cubans should struggle and we should express our solidarity with them whenever we can whether they are struggling against U.S. imperialism by uniting with Castro or struggling against Cuban ruling class.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
However, fact of the matter is Cuba can't exclusively build socialism independently unless there are other socialist revolution in other industrially advanced countries. Like I wrote before, you are playing "Latin sensitivity" card by framing my view as if I am underestimating Cuban people and yet you are one who is a biggest liar who deny the robbery of democracy for Cuban people by their leaders that you worship.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Many wishful thinkers who idealize Cuba as socialist often play this "Latin sensitivity" card and frame this debate as if those who doesn't recognize Cuba as socialist society are those who underestimate the capability of third world Cubans while it is an idealist like you who are shying away from actual political oppression, economic exploitation, robbery of their freedom of speech, press and assembly.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Like I state before, I find that it is Cubans that I have met who are more realistic and objective about Cuba where they are more critical and affirmative about both negative and positive aspects about Cuban politic. And this also reminds me of speech that I heard from this North Korean detainee who said that both left and right in South Korea seems to care more about their agenda with North Korea(whether it's "for" or "against" North Korea) than is about actual North Korean people.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
And that's how I feel about wishful thinkers who idealize and praise Cuba as "socialist" society. It appear as if it is more about their agenda of justifying socialism by using Cuba rather than critically viewing Cuban society and their leadership at same time, defending Cuban working class against their dictators for some of injustice and scarcity that they are suffering. See THIS is why actual Cubans are more realistic about Cuba while someone like you are more idealistic.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
"Perhaps if [I am] Raul [I] would do a better job?" See that is the prove of your Stalinist paternalism. Castro brothers, along with U.S. imperialism are obstacles of building socialism in Cuba. It is U.S. imperialism that situates Cuba to prioritize their self-determination(which time after time, I stated that I support) and it was/is Castro brothers who use that relation to repress the population by replacing class issue for self-determination.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
Socialists who idealize Cuba as "socialist" society do make good analysis of Cuban society and make contribution of understanding why Cuban society is the way it is. However, the major mark of their misleading conclusion is that they always seems to start with basic presupposition that Cuba is socialist society rather than analyzing Cuba whether it is socialist society. And they always fall into problem that defending Cuba is defending socialism.
unorthodoxtrotsky in reply to LeftEdit (Show the comment) 1 year ago
@LeftEdit
This leaves them(and you) of being very bias where they(and you) exaggerates the positive aspects of Cuba and conclude that Cuba is socialist society or shy away from negative ones(which are major aspects in relation to democracy in Cuba) by claiming that it is same with capitalism, defending Castro's dictatorship by ENTIRELY blaming U.S. imperialism or use a logic of cultural relativism. And in result, they(and you) marginalize Cuban working class for your socialist agenda.