"I think that a lot of pastors our realizing that the language they are using isn't helping"...Does this language include preaching the word of God. Here is an idea. Preach the unadulterated word of God. Then let God be God. You are to preach the truth. Preach on things like sin, death, the cross, the resurrection and let God work on their hearts. Stop being so irresponsible with God's word. IMO the sideshow that they put on seems more like they are ashamed of Christ. It truly saddens me.
A church that 100% believing in salvation via God's grace, and the Sacredness of Scripture, would not have any of the "lost" in it. It seems like this church is more than 50% people who are hearing about god's love love and plan for them for the first time. I wish we had people off the street wanting to come to Church where i work.
Also- why are you only showing the part of the service where they play a pop song and not the part where they offer God's alternative. Its kind of disingenuous.
You also made an accusation against Beeson & GCC that they mocked the holiness of other churches. Nothing can be further from the truth. This church is well aware that there are those that won't agree with the GCC format & for that reason they would rather people attend a church that they can grow & serve in rather than remain unchurched. Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness.
I also noted that the statistics you cited were without a source. Interesting. But let's say they are correct...GCC is a seeker friendly church. A church that size is bound to have non believers stray in. But they're in. While you were quick to point out aspects of the church that you have declared as heretical, you failed to use any excerpts of a typical weekend service message. I would challenge you to point out how the church teaches anything other than the Good News of the Kingdom.
I find it pathological that while GCC is reaching out locally to the marginalized in the inner city. Reaching out to poverty stricken & oppressed people in India. Not so much giving these people a hand out but rather a hand up. GCC also buys tons of food every year for distribution to those in need w/in the community. Yet you sit tall & mighty on your high horse & condemn them with your self proclaimed righteous indignation. Check out Matthew 25 sometime.
Ive been attending for four years now and am not surprised by the results but disapointed. I do get the sense that a lot are there for other reasons other than to learn about or worship GOD. Maybe these are just my stereotypes of dress and class, but i cantr believe how many woman I see coming to church dressed in a sexual manner that you would see saturday night at the club or maybe they just came from there. You know the type that live in the Mcmansoins in granger.
By not embracing the model of Christ and getting wrapped up in traditionalism and legalism - That is the real reason why so few are coming to Christ. We have to stop being wrapped in legalism and start focussing on the great commission and thinking about others instead of ourselves.
This video brings up some good points, but I think you take Tim Stevens' comment slightly out of context in the description. Now, this is only my opinion, but it sounds like what Stevens is saying (upon reading the rest of his post) is that he would rather have some un/de-churched in his church rather than have a church packed with stagnant, complacent and religious Christians that don't share the Gospel of Christ with those that don't know Him. Open to correction and rebuke where necessary.
Church isnt just for the believers and followers that are completely commited to Jesus Christ! Church is for worship and spreading the gospel. You cant teach someone something new if they dont attend...I started going to Granger Community Church about six months ago and it has been the best experience and decision in my life. They care about each person in that congregation and will do whatever it takes to help you become closer to God no matter where you are in your walk with Jesus Christ!
you might as well join the Mormon church then because they do all this and more.
Church IS for Believers in Jesus Christ, and the 'Church" is to go out and proclaim the Gospel to the lost. The church meeting itself is designed for the 'Church" NOT unbelievers.
I do not know of any church who hasnt strayed from the word of God. By belonging to the 501c-3 you have submitted authority from God to Government for tax purposes, but the truth is the Government puts limitations on the sermons or will strip you of your tax exempt status. How many churches have this lazy aditude of gods law as unnecesary even though Jesus said to keep the law and he also did? How many of you carry idol items such as crosses, or man made images of Jesus?
Alot of people dont attend church because they cant understand how the traditional church teaches the world of the bible, then a church comes out and does things different then people pin point them as doing something wrong! Never in the bible does it say that you have to worship God in a certain way...Yes they use secular songs but if you listen to Christian radio your going to hear that same kind of stuff on there as well.
The real statistics should be how many people didn't beleive at all, but now do? Or how many of those people that dont beleive are closer to beleiving now than when they started going? This is like saying most first graders cant do calculus, they are in school to learn, just as people at church are there to learn about Jesus.
I started going to church there about 6 months ago. I have never experienced God in a more personal or meaningful way in my entire life. The fact that so many people dont beleive those basic facets of christianity should be something that is praised. The church is made to evangelize, if only people that already beleive these things go to church how is the church ever going to grow and reach others?
All I saw in this video was the use of secular songs taken out of their context, with absolutely no mention of their teaching, their worship, their outreach, or their small groups. I see someone upset that they play secular songs and use fog machines and immediately associate that with something non-Christian. If you really want to make a point, show their teaching and try to prove that it is heretical. The fact that they play secular songs does not mean they are not Christian.
Paul became all things to all people so that he might save some. That is what Granger does. Jesus spend much more time OUT of the Synagogue/Religious areas and IN the secular areas where people are hurting. Exposition and Theology have their place, but it is in the hearts of the believers, not the first time visitors. We should be an open, inviting place, not a shut down, exclusive club. Jesus didn't reject culture, neither should we.
NO sir, Jesus saved you from death. Romans 6:23.We know death here is spiritual meaning eternal separation from God=Hell. Because you were a sinner you deserved Hell forever. But God put his Son in a cross and crushed him for your (and mine) iniquities so that by the blood of the lamb you were made clean. So please don't mock my savior in saying that he was brutally murdered on the cross so you "leave" rock n roll. That's an insult to the cross. Jesus saved you from death which you earned.
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i used to belong to a church like this and everytime i see something stupid like this it makes me glad i left and became a catholic, no pop in the church of rome!
I am sorry to hear about your dad but I am not sure what that has to do with what I am saying but yeah I am worried about heresy. People are being deceived into believing falsehoods. I am absolutley concerned about that and I won't apologize. If you don't like people being critical of Granger then you probably shouldn't watch Lane's videos.
Well, actually, I was watching this video because I think "emergent" churches are goofy--but I got caught with the opening statements. Jesus ISN'T the only way. Just look at us. We are using many ways to reach a higher way of being. If you're not willing to look at people and who we are and how god has shown god's self to us, then you can say anything you want. Maybe this is a good movement.
The problem here is that Tim believes that culture is more powerful than God. The spirit has never needed our "help" drawing people to Christ. He just needs our obedience. God transcends relevance, the truth exists outside of culture. The Corinthian letters were written to the church in Corinth as an admonishment to live counter to the culture of the day.
You are just repeating history - the previous generation against the new generation. What about 'embracing change'?
Change is inevitable. (I live in the UK and looking at these empty Anglican churches) - they are turned into offices, apartments and even night clubs. I'd rather have them filled with young people who just believe in 50% of God than believe in nothing at all.
Unfortunately 50% is not good enough for God. Jesus demaded 100%, he gave it himself, so his father expects nothing less from us. God has never equated crowds with success. A church filled with young people who only believe 50% is a church filled with people going to hell. The real tragedy is they think they are OK because ministers like Tim are telling them they are.
If someone is 50% a heretic they may as well just go full boar 100%, because 50% is not enough. Jesus laid down His life for you sins to be the one way and one truth and one life, not one of many. Better to have a small church of 50 with real Christians who believe in the real Gospel than 5000 who believe in half the truth, which may as well be full heresy.
I am glad that you are not my god. What is real gospel? The one from Southern baptist - burning in hell type? the one that condemn people at everything?
The one who believes sarah palin is Esther? and obama is of the devil? - I did go to those type of bible school - and now I felt that I was deceived!
Wow, from one comment you presume that I am some sort of Southern Baptist Republican. Is that the open-minded tolerance they teach you at Granger? Sorry your powers of perceptibility need a little work. The legalsitic, civil-religion teaching that you speak of is every bit as deceptive and dangerous as much of the teaching at Granger. And it is not anywehere near the real Gospel. The real Gospel is the perfect life, death and resurrection of Christ for you, to save you from sin and the devil.
The real Gospel speaks of salvation from sin through blood of Christ, not the "salvation" from mere unpleasantness that you might here about at Granger. And even then, this "salvation" from unpleasantness ends up becoming contingent upon your following the advice the advice that you have been given, thus making it law-lite, which in many ways is actually more dangerous than the fire and brimstone legalism which you referred to. At least with that you can recognize it as legalism.
And yes, I am sorry but preaching of the real Gospel does involve declaring you a sinner, but it places that sin upon Christ Jesus dying upon the cross for your justification, but then rising from the grave for your salvation. You say you grew up in a legalisti church. I grew up in church like Granger. And while it was entertaining, it wasn't until years later, I realized I was not getting a regular dose of the real Gospel.
Strategic theme? Cultural connection? Pop culture? Is this for real?! Yes, it is, and this is absolutely saddening. This is not church, because this 'pastor' is calling God's grace tradition and baggage! Lord, open eyes!
Gotcha. Unfortunately, it isn't a joke. These people take it seriously, and are either oblivious to the fact that they have strayed so much from what the Bible declares that we should be doing, simply don't care, or both.
GCC attracts people who otherwise would not bother with a church. They won't or can't dress up perfectly and stay awake through a boring, semi-informative service with no emotion. They are pushed away by these churches who guilt them for not tithing like they should. They are told they'll go to hell if they don't do everything the church says.
If a church runs a study and finds that %100 percent of those attending do believe, I would like to know what that church does with non-believers or those very young in their faith who may be searching. Do they exclude them? Turn them away so their results remain at %100?
the problem is that if half the church can attend every week and still not understand the truth of the gospel, then the truth is not being taught clearly enough. People who are still living in sin don't want to hear the truth.
Those who are searching or young in their faith are told the truth, and the whole truth. Its true, many are opposed to it and turn away, some come back... some do not, but at least they know the truth.
People study the bible their whole lives and still don't know the truth of the gospel. You think you have it figured out?
53% of ~7,000 members is 3,710 people who believe in salvation by Grace. 3,010 who believe in the authority of the Bible. 3,080 who believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Instead of taking this foolish stance against other Christians, perhaps you could consider using your time to aid in ensuring God's "will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
oh i do that, too, but I find nothing in scripture that would suggest that I should stop searching for true knowledge in scripture in order that I might avoid conflicting opinions with other "Christians."
And I hate to even have to mention this, but it doesn't matter how many smart people think something... it can still be wrong. A lot of very smart people are strong atheists.
And the very idea that we somehow have the power to ensure that Gods will is done is blasphemous.
Did you just outright state that humans cannot carry out God's will? What about Moses? What about Noah? David? Peter? Paul? Need I go on?
Don't you ever put the word Christian in your sarcastic quotation marks again. You do not have the authority to tell a person they are or aren't a Christian any more than I have. Talk about blasphemy...
What would ever compel you to claim that someone else is not a Christian? Jealousy? Maybe pride? Think about it. Read Job 5:2.
I did no such thing, I said we don't possess the power, and we don't. You make it sound like God depends on us to make the right choices so that his will might be done. As if the will of man could contend with Gods plan.
The quotes were not meant to be sarcastic, that was simply my way of saying self-proclaimed Christians who may or may not be saved. Of course I cannot know for certain, but if someone takes a position that contradicts the bible, I can know that they are in opposition to God.
"People study the bible their whole lives...." - As they should. I don't claim to have it all figured out but I do as 2 tim 2:15 commands as best as I can.
"you could consider using your time to aid" - What do you do to this end? Seriously please respond I would like to know. I am not trying to do any "one uping" but I would like to know. What are you doing for the Kingdom. If you ask a question you should be ready to answer it yourself. In Christ RJ
I serve with the parts of the church which I feel have helped me the most in my walk toward Christ, in hopes that it will help others with a similar story to mine. My comment means instead of berating other Christians for how they believe, time would be better spent bringing non-christians or those who have discarded their faith to God. I didn't ask what anyone is doing to aid, I suggested that the time spent attacking other Christians could be better spent. Read your context: 2 Timothy 2:14,16.
and again, my response to your first point is that we cannot be so naive as to assume that every professing Christian has been born again.
If our purpose here on earth is to preach the truth, and we cannot know for certain if a person is saved, then we are left with the need to preach the whole truth to everyone, not just the socially acceptable or "necessary" parts of the bible. professing Christian or not, it doesnt change my purpose.
You're absolutely right, I can't assume you are truly a Christian -- However it is not my place to say you are not, either. We cannot know for sure if any person has been saved, but we can have FAITH. If faith is naive, then yeah I guess that's what I am.
You must have a real issue with the fact that there are so many denominations in Christianity besides yours, who don't all believe or teach everything your way.
You are fortunate to have known God your entire life, but there are people who do not know him, or who have been led away from him and are now looking at their lives trying to figure out what's missing. Why would you ignore these people? They aren't part of your sacred "flock" so you cast them aside?
And like I keep saying, it is not my job to dumb down Gods word so that it is easier for them to accept. The Bible teaches that those who truly seek WILL find.
I have faith that Gods will will be done, and that he will truly save whomever he wills, but I dont have faith that every professed Christian is saved, just like I dont have faith that every person will be saved. Am I to put my faith in the words of fallen man when they contradict scripture? Of course not.
Even me. Even you. The pastors of my church; the pastors of your church. There is only one exception, whom died on our behalf roughly two thousand years ago.
I believe in the past you have said you are of the Armenian persuasion. How do you feel about the recent actions of your Church's Clerics in Jerusalem, and please don't just blame it all on the Greek Orthodox Clerics. Is this the way true Christians are supposed to act. How would Jesus react to this behavior?
53% of those attending GCC BELIEVE in salvation by grace.
43% of those attending BELIEVE in the authority oF the Bible.
44% of those attending BELIEVE that Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Now I realize that this is far from 100 percent but it is close to half, which means the other half is still immature in it's faith. Do you know for a fact that 100% of those attending your church BELIEVE in those things? If you say yes, how do you know this for sure?
Would those true Christians be the Armenian, and Greek Orthodox Clerics that got into a fistfight at the site of Christ's burial in Jerusalem? The six Christian sects that control the site are constantly bickering. Was in not Jesus that said a house divided against itself can not stand?
i believe we should do what Jesus did. teach 100% scripture with stories and examples that people understand from their everyday life. When he was talking to farmers he used farming illustrations (culture) to illustrate scriptural truths. so, my answer is 100% scripture, just like Jesus.
It's not an issue of using different means to meet different cultures, it's a matter of changing what the Gospel is. You hold to a religion called Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. That's the issue at hand.
Jesus said, "You'll know a tree by its fruit." I look at your fruit, then I know you. You, however, argue that "You can't know a tree by its fruit." I don't need to point out what's Scriptural and what isn't; it's pretty obvious. Perhaps if places like you promote actually took the time to exegete the Bible instead of things like Dr. Suess (I'm not kidding, there's actually a group of narcissists that did it), you'd be better equipped and not argue against what the Bible says.
Also, I see that you haven't met the charge of changing the definitions of words we both share. Instead, you give such a shallow answer as you have. What is the reason for that? Is it because you don't have a better argument than, "No we don't do that! No we're not that!" Please. I've seen kids argue for having their Juicy-Juicy outside of snack time better than what you've presented here and for something that you deem so important, that's a shame. (cont...)
It does show the futility of your position, though, so that's helpful to people who actually think things through and aren't "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine" whether it be Purpose Driven, Seeker-Sensitive, Relevance, etc.
The one thing that bothers me is Lane seems to think he knows what is in our hearts, just by the way we worship. The only ones who know what is in my heart are God and myself! I don't know what is in his heart, and would never profess to know. That is between him and God as well. I would have to say that anyone who says they know what is in my heart is elevating themselves to the level of God, and although I am a lowley sinner, I know that isn't right.
Jesus said, "You'll know a tree by its fruit." I look at your fruit, then I know you. You, however, argue that "You can't know a tree by its fruit." I don't need to point out what's Scriptural and what isn't; it's pretty obvious.
PS. Zark, ad hominems get you banned. If you have arguments like the one above, you should have made them. Instead resorting to ad hominemns really shows where your heart is... it's a fruit and a bad one at that. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, but apparently you will take exception with that verse, too.
it is obvious that these people have never been 2GCC.
i went to bible school 2B a missionary. i learned 2do exaclty what paul did @mars hill &what GCC is doing.
1. take parts of there culture to teach truth
2. continue to teach that Biblical truth
3. after time they eventually get saved
i'm excited that they have drawn the unsaved 2their church using culture. means they R doing what God asked of them. as they continue2 teach biblical truth those people will get saved.
They don't have a church. The Greek word for church is called "ecclesia". That means, "The called out ones." In other words, its believers. A group of unbelievers is not a church, period. Do you have any concern that the methods they're employing are producing the results we see declared by them themselves? It seems like if you truly cared about other people's souls (and your own) you'd be worried about that.
their methods are to attract the unsaved (they've done that) then disciple them. they've realized they need to do better at discipling them so they are changing to make that better. most churches don't even make it that far. gcc has a great problem. how do we disciple all the lost people we have attracted? look at their growth rates and you'll see that they are growing from the lost instead of other churches. a church that only relates to the saved has to grow from transfer growth.
Once again, here's the point. By definition, Granger is not a church. It's no more spiritual and Christ centered than a secular movie theater which can bring in the lost week after week but also show no signs of spiritual growth. They need to repent of their narcissism.
There should be a line drawn between what we can do, and what we can't do! Even though I ma teenager these kind of churches doesnt help me be more spiritual!
I might be a teenager, yet I find the pop church abominable. I'd rather go to a church where I can feel connected to my most ancient brothers in Christ.
I couldn't agree more, Glorthac. I think it's funny that people like you, me and Lane are the age of the 'demographic' (teenagers and twenty-somethings) that this pop church is targeting and yet we are able to see it for what it is, by the grace of God. Which is nothing more than a compromise of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for exposing this "Pop Church". It is doing exactly as Chris Rosebrough said. The people going to these "Churches" are FALSE conversions. They are NOT saved.
This makes me physically sick to my stomach. It makes me understand Rev. 3:16 so much better. These "pop christians" make Jesus Christ spue (vomit).
I can't believe these people sang Madonna songs in their Church and think these people are saved! Sickening!
caevans9: My question was in response to all the critics of GCC and Tim Stevens. They seem to take a few things they do regarding pop culture and make it seem as if that's the only content of a weekend service.
I agree that Beeson, Wegner, Stevens, and the rest are Bible believing men who teach God's word.
But my question still stands to those who say that GCC is not doing any work for the Lord: Have you ever sat through a few sermons from GCC?
blake - i doubt that your going to get an answer on this. i've asked the original poster the same question. i don't think that they can admit they are judging something they have never seen in it's entirety. i've been there several times and see how powerful and Biblical the messages are. i don't think they are the enemy. just got fed one side of it by this video. i challenge anyone here to watch 3-4 entire messages and then say this pushes people away from God.
Anything else you're challenging? Perhaps I didn't jump through enough hoops to meet your qualifications even though my answer was driven by purpose. :)
yes, i have attended a service almost every weekend for the past 3 years or so. as well as the mid-week services for the past year. when i'm unable to attend, i catch them on the website. I have attended many churchs, none that have spoke the word of god as well as gcc's staff, at least to my heart. they speak gods word in a way that poeple don't feel as if they are being jugded by those around them. The word of god is taught.
The bigger picture @ gcc is reaching the people & teaching gods word. If you expect everyone who goes to church are 100% believers, your not gaining any ground, not expanding gods kingdom. The snips you show here are yes secular, by themselves, but hearing the bigger message that surrounded them is the word of God...& is changing lives...
This is just silly. The reasons the stats read as they do is the people who have found this church were searching & are still searching. Do people who walk thru any churches door automatically become 100% believers? They came in not believing & answered the survey honestly.
We take our next step towards Christ, together. We're not looking for fear converts, we're looking for honest realization of our insignificance and complete dependance on God. Our God is no different than the Biblical God. The Bible says "When with the Jews, do as the Jews do, when with the Gentiles, do as the Gentiles do." Yes, we are called to be "strangers in a foreign land" but we must be relevant. Jesus preached about relevant subjects in biblical days, and so we should do the same now.
"We take our next step towards Christ, together. We're not looking for fear converts, we're looking for honest realization of our insignificance and complete dependance on God."
...and the results your business revealed shows that you're failing miserably at this task. I mean the leadership at these kind of places compare themselves to CEOs... did you know that if it was a company on Wall Street, the investors would overthrow the management if they produced results like this?
"When with the Jews, do as the Jews do, when with the Gentiles, do as the Gentiles do." Yes, we are called to be "strangers in a foreign land" but we must be relevant. Jesus preached about relevant subjects in biblical days, and so we should do the same now."
Yes, it does say this, but what it doesn't say is "When with the Jews, compromise the message, when with the Gentiles, compromise the message." Since it doesn't say this, why practice like it does?
that's just a viewpoint. we are not by any means compromising the message, the truth is preached, people are touched, lives are changed, and christ is glorified.
Our job as a church is not to rack up the converts. It is to love people, plant a seed, and let the Holy Spirit water it and bring it to fruition. If we see the harvest, GREAT! If we don't, we know that the Word of God does not return void. We do what we're called to do, God in his awesome power, does the rest. End of story.
I think the best reply to everything you've just said is to rhetorically ask you to explain the contradiction between everything you've just asserted and the statistics Granger itself presented.
Praise God that his children are so different. That makes it easier to reach the different types of people in this broken world. I believe in the Holy redemptive power of Jesus Christ, and so do you. Praise the Lord that we'll one day meet in Glory. Have a lovely life and live each day in a way that brings you closer to the King.
I agree that His children are different in terms of certain things. What I don't agree with is that the majority of those attending Granger are Christians. I'd have to basically ignore the stats to be in agreement with you on that fact.
"Have a lovely life and live each day in a way that brings you closer to the King."
I agree, but, as Granger has produced in their results, stay as far away from Granger as possible in order to accomplish this closeness.
Doni, just keep praying for him. i don't know that he will ever see what we do and why we do it. that's okay. i'm sure there are people that respond to his way of spreading the Gospel. I do pray that one day he will understand that thinking he knows what is in our hearts was very prideful. Love his heart.
You don't know Jesus, Micah. You may think you do, but its a Jesus formed in your own image. It's an idol that tells you that anything that doesn't make you happy or as narcissistic as you can possibly be is "prideful". I pray that the Lord removes the scales from your eyes.
I'm intrigued by this who conversation. You show these clips of secular songs and such, but you don't show ANY of the message that goes along with the songs. Yes, Granger preaches Heaven and Hell, but we do it in such a way that doesn't push people away, it pushes them closer to a relevant God. If it takes a secular song to get to the heart of a non-believer, so be it. And yes, there are a lot of seekers in our church, the Physician came to heal the sick. Weren't we all sick at one time?
"Yes, Granger preaches Heaven and Hell, but we do it in such a way that doesn't push people away, it pushes them closer to a relevant God."
You all do it in such a way that doesn't push unbelief away. There's a huge difference. If you're pushing them closer to a God that doesn't convict them of sin and the fact that they're already condemned for not believing in God (John 3:18), your relevant God and the Biblical God are different.
This is why people are falling away from the faith. They want to be catered to and "agree" with the man-made Gospel that is spewed and then when the going gets tough, they can't handle it cuz they haven't been born in the spirit but rather their own flesh. it's heartbreaking and nauseating and that the lord of all Glory is being peddled like an accessory and self help genie. He is LORD. not the latest "fad" to be used and abused
In other words, pastors are realizing that they will be as scandalous as the Gospel in these modern relevant movements, so they desire the praise of men over the approval of God. This kind of mess is sickening to god, because it is a reduction of the gospel of His Son, Jesus Christ.
We do not need to be relevant. We need to be disciples. The Church is not relevant, but true churches are scandals, because they preach contrary to the world. Preach the real Gospel, as commanded by God to do.
...gag (for the first 10 minutes or so) "Church" is for believers to have fellowship, edify each other and worship. If seekers want to come, fine, but we shouldn't be "playing for" the heathen - we're supposed to be praying for the them and giving the gospel to them.
Why is the church following the world? The world should be following the church! Have we lost our salt? Then let us go to those that sell and buy (Matthew 25)
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous ,and God is angry with the wicked every day. Are you going to tell them that!!!That they need to be saved from the wrath to come!?!?
This is sad. And I thought I was too ecumenical. These people don't even base their drama and rock on Scripture. No way are these kids gonna be the hope of the next generation.
An vast, dust cloud of individuals--to paraphrase George Will. These people lack a love not only the Word, but it seems books in general. This new Generation Rx needs Truth.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I always seek Truth. I'm an Evangelical Southern Baptist and still find much Truth in the Church of Christ, Catholicism, Presbyterian (Calvinists)and in the Assemblies of God. As a former AG Pentecostal before attending Baptist Bible College I still have a Pentecostal bent. Truths can be found in virtually every Christian Church.
Where we Christians discern scripture differently is where many churches part ways, but we tend to agree on about 90-95% of our Theology. Many issues we must just agree to disagree and know that God is Fair and Just! When we get to Heaven we will worship God together and probably get a little laugh about our theological differences. Love your Christian Brothers and Sisters and Pray for them always. Thanks for posting all the great vids and God Bless!
All the "thumbs downs" kind of proves my point. All of you are CERTAIN that you are "right" when the truth always lies somewhere in the middle. There are too many arguments about fine points of theology for ONE denomination to be completely correct, be it Church of Christ or Southern Baptist. I'm certain where the scripture is certain. I trust the Holy Spirit for the finer points and that's where most denominations part ways. Jesus IS the only way!
of course, some parts of truth can be found everywhere.... but satan always mixes those truths with lies so that the truth you think you know is know longer truth
First let me say that I am a parishoner, not a leader of GCC so I don't speak for the leadership. I also do not asume that everyone is in the "same boat as us". There are many fine Churches across this country. Unfortunelately, I get the impression that unless we do it exactly like you we will be wrong anyway.
If I'm "doing it" like the Bible commands, then, yes, you will be wrong if you "do it" an opposite way. From your arguments, here's what you're advocating: "Unless you agree with me that there are multiple ways to do a single thing that the Bible commands, you are wrong." So really the argument could be said, "Unless we (meaning me and those who agree with what the Bible says) do it exactly like you (not being definitive about what the Gospel is or commands) we will be wrong anyway (to you)."
See, that's our difference. I don't want you to do it like me. I think there are many ways to worship Jesus, and believers should worship in the way that works best for them, based on the Bible. I think we as Christians spend too much time defining our differences, and too little time embracing our similarities, and saving the lost.
"See, that's our difference. I don't want you to do it like me."
Ah, but you do. No offense, but I don't think that it's ever penetrated your thinking to realize that you do. Here's how:
You think: "I think there are many ways to worship Jesus, and believers should worship in the way that works best for them, based on the Bible." So basically if we don't "think there are many ways to worship Jesus", too, we're not "doing it" or thinking like you, are we?
I'm glad that you are able to read minds. As you have said there is only one to judge who is right and who is wrong, God himself. I believe differently than you, but I won't go so far as to say you are wrong, it's not my place.
You keep referring to GCC as a business. We are no more a business than any other Christian Church in America. Growth is important to every Chuch small large and in between. I guess all I can say is check back with us in a year and see if we have changed.
"I think we as Christians spend too much time defining our differences, and too little time embracing our similarities, and saving the lost."
No offense, here, either, but your advocating a business where over half of the people who attend are unbelievers. This doesn't exactly bode well for your credibility. (cont...)
In other words, if "a difference" is whether we believe the Gospel or not as this recent poll and years of evidence proves to be an issue, we need to spend more time defining those differences, not less.
I think the point that is missing is our Church leadership was stunned by the results of the survey. That is why GCC is making changes in the way we do things to give our parishoners the tools they need to leam in deeper to the Lord, through increased Bible study, and change the survey numbers for the better. At least our Church had the guts to participate in the survey. I wonder how many of the previous posters churches did? What would their results be? ...are you sure??
We've been the ones who've been telling you that you don't have to take a survey to know what you all have found out by taking one so don't act like everyone's in the same boat as your business is. If you do, you're using two informal logical fallacies called "induction" and "straw man", and if you have to resort to using logical fallacies to make your "point", it's obvious that it's not a viable point to begin with.
Sorry, I'm Biblicly ignorant. That's why I'm looking forward to the bible study classes that start next month, so I don't understand what you mean by using illogical fallacies.
Logic is used to determine if something is true or false. When someone brings a logical fallacy into an argument, the argument itself ends up being false. You try to lump all the churches in the known world in with this Granger business with saying, "At least our Church had the guts to participate in the survey. I wonder how many of the previous posters churches did?" That's called induction because not all the churches participate in gimmicks like singing Material Girl to get business.
PS. If you're looking forward to "Bible" study classes at Granger, I'm skeptical that you'll learn anything about logic and reason there. Why would they teach exactly what would tear down what they've built? If you want the true Gospel, I encourage you to transfer to a true Church that teaches it. You'll notice that the more you invoke logic into your thinking the more you'll see the error that Granger and other businesses are promoting to get business.
Your kind of rude, and come across MUCH holier than thou. I believe that behavior like tyhat is what keeps some seekers out of a lot of Churches. That's just my opinion.
I don't think the survey is a "gimmick" it's a way to find out how you are doing at reaching your objectives, and are you reaching people the right way.. Where is your Church? I would like to go to one of your services. Do you have them posted on the web?
"I believe that behavior like tyhat is what keeps some seekers out of a lot of Churches. That's just my opinion."
That's a straw man. There are none who seeks for God apart from God giving them the gift to seek Him... according to Paul who was inspired by God, at least.: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
"I don't think the survey is a "gimmick" it's a way to find out how you are doing at reaching your objectives, and are you reaching people the right way..."
Why is it then that we've been telling that these businesses have been producing false converts for years? It seems that we didn't need the "autonomous" survey... hmmm...
"Where is your Church? I would like to go to one of your services. Do you have them posted on the web?"
I just moved to California about 5 days ago for law school, and am in the process of looking for one now. However, you can listen to sermons by Paul Washer and Mark Kielar that I've posted to see what I agree with. It's posted here on this channel.
Definition: Partway through an argument, the arguer goes off on a tangent, raising a side issue that distracts the audience from what's really at stake. Often, the arguer never returns to the original issue.
example: You, bringing up logical fallacies to someone obviously not educated on the subject.
lol, so you hold that when people are trying to bring up arguments in a logical fashion then pointing out logical fallacies in their arguments which they believe are logically sound is a red herring? haha, I've heard a lot of crazy things from people defending their idols here on Youtube, but this is a first.
Please tell us more "wisdom"! That was a good chuckle. I hope you meant it as satire or sarcasm. Thanks.
This is what my logic professor referred to as the Pooh - Pooh fallacy. You pooh - pooh what someone has to say, so that you don't have to defend what they actually said.
No offense to your logic professor, but if he's teaching that you can't point out logical fallacies in your opponents logically set forth arguments, he needs to be fired. Where does your professor teach?
He didn't teach that you can't point out logical fallacies. What I was referring to was, "haha, I've heard a lot of crazy things from people defending their idols here on Youtube, but this is a first."
This is similar to what a lot of political people do when they say "That's ridiculous, blah blah."
Ah, your going to be a lawyer, and I was just beginning to have some respect for you. Not that most Lawyers aren't smart. I hope you will use the degree to truley help people and not just line your own pockets, as a lot of lawyers do.
ad hominem (n): 1) In an argument, this is an attack on the person rather than on the opponent's ideas. It comes from the Latin meaning "against the man."
2) attacking your opponent personally rather than her/his argument. Ad hominem is fallacious argumentation.
3) a logical fallacy of ethos in which the arguer attacks the proponent of an idea instead of the idea itself
Surely the scripteures are fullfilled in 2Timothy 4:3. How Spurgeon Edwards and Ravenhill wuold weep at the sight of this. It is a sad time when the Word of our Lord is substituted for entertainment. You are right nathanjonessr mans need is for a saviour. They are lost souls leading others into damnation yet they call them selves The Church
It is good to have some things to draw peoples attention, but after that you give them the uncompromising Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not suppose to draw them to Church: Church is for the Converted. The reason the Church has become the place to bring sinners is because no one is laboring: sharing the Gospel outside the Church: bringing them to the Pastor to tell them. That would be okay if the Pastor was John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, etc. It is the the Chrisitans Job though(All must Labor).
Welcome to the world of what I call McChurch. We have something to please and entertain everybody except those who really want to hear the true gospel. We sing repeatious praise music and forget the beautiful hymns. We forget we can do both and praise God. We don't give people the biblical knowledge to deal with hard times because we always need to feel good about things.Just drive up to the window folks and we give you what you want and maybe not what you really seek and need.
It seems striking to me that the most important thing that these churches fail to remember is that the needs of humanity have been the same since our father Adam first sinned against God. We need a saviour to rescue us from sin. The Good News (most relevant and pragmatic news) is that Jesus came to reconcile us with God, to save us from sin and death. I'm not opposed to rock music, but the message should always be the same old gospel, not the humanist message that you're alright!!
So.... what happened to "We are in the world, but not OF the world? "These guys are reinforcing wordly values- it's merely entertainment t, with no power to save. Where is the gospel of Jesus Christ in all this junk?? False converts-yes. Real saving grace-No. I pray they will start teaching from the Bible instead of the Beatles.
you know the early church had the same cow when the brought the organ (a bar instrument) into church to relate to the unsaved. they said "God would never move with the "devils" music". you people are kinda funny. love you all thought.
Hi! I think you misunderstood my point here. I wasn't referring to the instruments or genre- I am referring to the lyrics and whole worldly mindset. Mimicking Madonna or the latest pop star, singing about sex, etc. is making the church look and act just like the world it is supposed to be reaching with the gospel.
it would be better if U had an opportunity to see it N context. you might understand better. U sing "material girl" & then come out and say that all of us have these tenancies in our flesh and all of us have struggled with giving too much value to material things. then you shed the light on it from the Word. Jesus did this constantly with parables. Story telling & poetry were the entertainment of the time. Jesus used a secular form of entertainment 2 teach truth. simple example in Matt 9:16-17
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bigpapaevan1 11 months ago
I wonder how long it'll take this church to realize that their cover songs are hokey. hahahaha
homeless018 1 year ago
"I think that a lot of pastors our realizing that the language they are using isn't helping"...Does this language include preaching the word of God. Here is an idea. Preach the unadulterated word of God. Then let God be God. You are to preach the truth. Preach on things like sin, death, the cross, the resurrection and let God work on their hearts. Stop being so irresponsible with God's word. IMO the sideshow that they put on seems more like they are ashamed of Christ. It truly saddens me.
theflarpus 1 year ago
A church that 100% believing in salvation via God's grace, and the Sacredness of Scripture, would not have any of the "lost" in it. It seems like this church is more than 50% people who are hearing about god's love love and plan for them for the first time. I wish we had people off the street wanting to come to Church where i work.
Also- why are you only showing the part of the service where they play a pop song and not the part where they offer God's alternative. Its kind of disingenuous.
gihfe 1 year ago
You also made an accusation against Beeson & GCC that they mocked the holiness of other churches. Nothing can be further from the truth. This church is well aware that there are those that won't agree with the GCC format & for that reason they would rather people attend a church that they can grow & serve in rather than remain unchurched. Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness.
Matthew 7:3-5
ScottJ5860 1 year ago
I also noted that the statistics you cited were without a source. Interesting. But let's say they are correct...GCC is a seeker friendly church. A church that size is bound to have non believers stray in. But they're in. While you were quick to point out aspects of the church that you have declared as heretical, you failed to use any excerpts of a typical weekend service message. I would challenge you to point out how the church teaches anything other than the Good News of the Kingdom.
ScottJ5860 1 year ago
I find it pathological that while GCC is reaching out locally to the marginalized in the inner city. Reaching out to poverty stricken & oppressed people in India. Not so much giving these people a hand out but rather a hand up. GCC also buys tons of food every year for distribution to those in need w/in the community. Yet you sit tall & mighty on your high horse & condemn them with your self proclaimed righteous indignation. Check out Matthew 25 sometime.
ScottJ5860 1 year ago
Ive been attending for four years now and am not surprised by the results but disapointed. I do get the sense that a lot are there for other reasons other than to learn about or worship GOD. Maybe these are just my stereotypes of dress and class, but i cantr believe how many woman I see coming to church dressed in a sexual manner that you would see saturday night at the club or maybe they just came from there. You know the type that live in the Mcmansoins in granger.
rwwilson75 1 year ago
ICHABOD!
1Cor2two 1 year ago
Granger Community Church is a purpose driven church. They reach the unchurched. It is what they do.
peoplematter14 1 year ago
@peoplematter14 Yes and reach them with WHAT?
1Cor2two 1 year ago
By not embracing the model of Christ and getting wrapped up in traditionalism and legalism - That is the real reason why so few are coming to Christ. We have to stop being wrapped in legalism and start focussing on the great commission and thinking about others instead of ourselves.
bradjchristian 2 years ago
This video brings up some good points, but I think you take Tim Stevens' comment slightly out of context in the description. Now, this is only my opinion, but it sounds like what Stevens is saying (upon reading the rest of his post) is that he would rather have some un/de-churched in his church rather than have a church packed with stagnant, complacent and religious Christians that don't share the Gospel of Christ with those that don't know Him. Open to correction and rebuke where necessary.
thesinisthesilence 2 years ago
is that for real?? they're singing a madonna song at their church?? how on earth does that honour God in any way shape or form? that's just sad.
mander33 2 years ago
Church isnt just for the believers and followers that are completely commited to Jesus Christ! Church is for worship and spreading the gospel. You cant teach someone something new if they dont attend...I started going to Granger Community Church about six months ago and it has been the best experience and decision in my life. They care about each person in that congregation and will do whatever it takes to help you become closer to God no matter where you are in your walk with Jesus Christ!
crtlynn06 2 years ago
you might as well join the Mormon church then because they do all this and more.
Church IS for Believers in Jesus Christ, and the 'Church" is to go out and proclaim the Gospel to the lost. The church meeting itself is designed for the 'Church" NOT unbelievers.
carpentersdaughter2 1 year ago
I do not know of any church who hasnt strayed from the word of God. By belonging to the 501c-3 you have submitted authority from God to Government for tax purposes, but the truth is the Government puts limitations on the sermons or will strip you of your tax exempt status. How many churches have this lazy aditude of gods law as unnecesary even though Jesus said to keep the law and he also did? How many of you carry idol items such as crosses, or man made images of Jesus?
rwwilson75 1 year ago
Alot of people dont attend church because they cant understand how the traditional church teaches the world of the bible, then a church comes out and does things different then people pin point them as doing something wrong! Never in the bible does it say that you have to worship God in a certain way...Yes they use secular songs but if you listen to Christian radio your going to hear that same kind of stuff on there as well.
crtlynn06 2 years ago 2
The real statistics should be how many people didn't beleive at all, but now do? Or how many of those people that dont beleive are closer to beleiving now than when they started going? This is like saying most first graders cant do calculus, they are in school to learn, just as people at church are there to learn about Jesus.
bigstewy53 2 years ago
I started going to church there about 6 months ago. I have never experienced God in a more personal or meaningful way in my entire life. The fact that so many people dont beleive those basic facets of christianity should be something that is praised. The church is made to evangelize, if only people that already beleive these things go to church how is the church ever going to grow and reach others?
bigstewy53 2 years ago
granger church
equals
revelation 3:16-17 and 2 timothy 4:3-4
those at granger church ought to open up a bible
and see that their church
and other seeker-driven ones like it
is mentioned in those bible verses
billiefan2000 2 years ago
All I saw in this video was the use of secular songs taken out of their context, with absolutely no mention of their teaching, their worship, their outreach, or their small groups. I see someone upset that they play secular songs and use fog machines and immediately associate that with something non-Christian. If you really want to make a point, show their teaching and try to prove that it is heretical. The fact that they play secular songs does not mean they are not Christian.
jsphillips86 2 years ago
Paul became all things to all people so that he might save some. That is what Granger does. Jesus spend much more time OUT of the Synagogue/Religious areas and IN the secular areas where people are hurting. Exposition and Theology have their place, but it is in the hearts of the believers, not the first time visitors. We should be an open, inviting place, not a shut down, exclusive club. Jesus didn't reject culture, neither should we.
jsphillips86 2 years ago
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billiefan2000 2 years ago
jesus saved me from rock n roll just one of the sins
Christiangrampa 2 years ago
NO sir, Jesus saved you from death. Romans 6:23.We know death here is spiritual meaning eternal separation from God=Hell. Because you were a sinner you deserved Hell forever. But God put his Son in a cross and crushed him for your (and mine) iniquities so that by the blood of the lamb you were made clean. So please don't mock my savior in saying that he was brutally murdered on the cross so you "leave" rock n roll. That's an insult to the cross. Jesus saved you from death which you earned.
wanastunt 2 years ago
Pray... thats all we can do. I was a member there years ago and I saw this coming. I feel so bad for all those people being misguided.
matthewgraham48 2 years ago
I think I am going to be sick........
youratm 2 years ago
I've seen some songs. I wonder what the sermons are like... anyone know?
WhenYouGoHome 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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Kyleaqza 2 years ago
i used to belong to a church like this and everytime i see something stupid like this it makes me glad i left and became a catholic, no pop in the church of rome!
boganlewis 2 years ago
Mr Green,
Before you go further about stuffing the gospel down my throat.
So far this is my tally.
My father (a Med Doctor) died in Medical Missionary trip. My mother left her dental practice to be in the ministry.
And you are worry about some flippin herecy?
apertama 2 years ago
I am sorry to hear about your dad but I am not sure what that has to do with what I am saying but yeah I am worried about heresy. People are being deceived into believing falsehoods. I am absolutley concerned about that and I won't apologize. If you don't like people being critical of Granger then you probably shouldn't watch Lane's videos.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
thank God for them a strong true to Gods word will bring forth more like your parets instad of wasting their life plating
Christiangrampa 2 years ago
Wow, this is worse than I ever imagined. People associate this crap with Christianity?
It really is the end of our culture. This is sick.
kc7fys 2 years ago
Well, actually, I was watching this video because I think "emergent" churches are goofy--but I got caught with the opening statements. Jesus ISN'T the only way. Just look at us. We are using many ways to reach a higher way of being. If you're not willing to look at people and who we are and how god has shown god's self to us, then you can say anything you want. Maybe this is a good movement.
kc7fys 2 years ago
The problem here is that Tim believes that culture is more powerful than God. The spirit has never needed our "help" drawing people to Christ. He just needs our obedience. God transcends relevance, the truth exists outside of culture. The Corinthian letters were written to the church in Corinth as an admonishment to live counter to the culture of the day.
lmnjones 3 years ago
You are just repeating history - the previous generation against the new generation. What about 'embracing change'?
Change is inevitable. (I live in the UK and looking at these empty Anglican churches) - they are turned into offices, apartments and even night clubs. I'd rather have them filled with young people who just believe in 50% of God than believe in nothing at all.
apertama 3 years ago
Unfortunately 50% is not good enough for God. Jesus demaded 100%, he gave it himself, so his father expects nothing less from us. God has never equated crowds with success. A church filled with young people who only believe 50% is a church filled with people going to hell. The real tragedy is they think they are OK because ministers like Tim are telling them they are.
lmnjones 3 years ago
I think 50% is good enough. 1 % is good enough, 0.0001% is good enough. Faith of a mustard seed?
apertama 3 years ago
If someone is 50% a heretic they may as well just go full boar 100%, because 50% is not enough. Jesus laid down His life for you sins to be the one way and one truth and one life, not one of many. Better to have a small church of 50 with real Christians who believe in the real Gospel than 5000 who believe in half the truth, which may as well be full heresy.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Mr Mack.
I am glad that you are not my god. What is real gospel? The one from Southern baptist - burning in hell type? the one that condemn people at everything?
The one who believes sarah palin is Esther? and obama is of the devil? - I did go to those type of bible school - and now I felt that I was deceived!
apertama 2 years ago
Wow, from one comment you presume that I am some sort of Southern Baptist Republican. Is that the open-minded tolerance they teach you at Granger? Sorry your powers of perceptibility need a little work. The legalsitic, civil-religion teaching that you speak of is every bit as deceptive and dangerous as much of the teaching at Granger. And it is not anywehere near the real Gospel. The real Gospel is the perfect life, death and resurrection of Christ for you, to save you from sin and the devil.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
The real Gospel speaks of salvation from sin through blood of Christ, not the "salvation" from mere unpleasantness that you might here about at Granger. And even then, this "salvation" from unpleasantness ends up becoming contingent upon your following the advice the advice that you have been given, thus making it law-lite, which in many ways is actually more dangerous than the fire and brimstone legalism which you referred to. At least with that you can recognize it as legalism.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
And yes, I am sorry but preaching of the real Gospel does involve declaring you a sinner, but it places that sin upon Christ Jesus dying upon the cross for your justification, but then rising from the grave for your salvation. You say you grew up in a legalisti church. I grew up in church like Granger. And while it was entertaining, it wasn't until years later, I realized I was not getting a regular dose of the real Gospel.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Strategic theme? Cultural connection? Pop culture? Is this for real?! Yes, it is, and this is absolutely saddening. This is not church, because this 'pastor' is calling God's grace tradition and baggage! Lord, open eyes!
theheartofbillprice 3 years ago
Is this a joke?
oaklandasrock 3 years ago
Is what a joke? (ie. define "this".)
LaneCh 3 years ago
What this "church" is doing.
oaklandasrock 3 years ago
Gotcha. Unfortunately, it isn't a joke. These people take it seriously, and are either oblivious to the fact that they have strayed so much from what the Bible declares that we should be doing, simply don't care, or both.
LaneCh 3 years ago
IM SO EMBARRASSED ...........
gvassi17 3 years ago 2
GCC attracts people who otherwise would not bother with a church. They won't or can't dress up perfectly and stay awake through a boring, semi-informative service with no emotion. They are pushed away by these churches who guilt them for not tithing like they should. They are told they'll go to hell if they don't do everything the church says.
asylumx1a 3 years ago
If a church runs a study and finds that %100 percent of those attending do believe, I would like to know what that church does with non-believers or those very young in their faith who may be searching. Do they exclude them? Turn them away so their results remain at %100?
searching684 3 years ago
Excellent queation! I would like to know as well.
stonehenge1000 3 years ago
the problem is that if half the church can attend every week and still not understand the truth of the gospel, then the truth is not being taught clearly enough. People who are still living in sin don't want to hear the truth.
Those who are searching or young in their faith are told the truth, and the whole truth. Its true, many are opposed to it and turn away, some come back... some do not, but at least they know the truth.
brand0nabe 3 years ago
People study the bible their whole lives and still don't know the truth of the gospel. You think you have it figured out?
53% of ~7,000 members is 3,710 people who believe in salvation by Grace. 3,010 who believe in the authority of the Bible. 3,080 who believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Instead of taking this foolish stance against other Christians, perhaps you could consider using your time to aid in ensuring God's "will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
asylumx1a 3 years ago
oh i do that, too, but I find nothing in scripture that would suggest that I should stop searching for true knowledge in scripture in order that I might avoid conflicting opinions with other "Christians."
And I hate to even have to mention this, but it doesn't matter how many smart people think something... it can still be wrong. A lot of very smart people are strong atheists.
And the very idea that we somehow have the power to ensure that Gods will is done is blasphemous.
brand0nabe 3 years ago
Did you just outright state that humans cannot carry out God's will? What about Moses? What about Noah? David? Peter? Paul? Need I go on?
Don't you ever put the word Christian in your sarcastic quotation marks again. You do not have the authority to tell a person they are or aren't a Christian any more than I have. Talk about blasphemy...
What would ever compel you to claim that someone else is not a Christian? Jealousy? Maybe pride? Think about it. Read Job 5:2.
asylumx1a 3 years ago
I did no such thing, I said we don't possess the power, and we don't. You make it sound like God depends on us to make the right choices so that his will might be done. As if the will of man could contend with Gods plan.
The quotes were not meant to be sarcastic, that was simply my way of saying self-proclaimed Christians who may or may not be saved. Of course I cannot know for certain, but if someone takes a position that contradicts the bible, I can know that they are in opposition to God.
brand0nabe 3 years ago
asylumx1a- let me answer this post.
"People study the bible their whole lives...." - As they should. I don't claim to have it all figured out but I do as 2 tim 2:15 commands as best as I can.
"you could consider using your time to aid" - What do you do to this end? Seriously please respond I would like to know. I am not trying to do any "one uping" but I would like to know. What are you doing for the Kingdom. If you ask a question you should be ready to answer it yourself. In Christ RJ
theatwo 3 years ago
I serve with the parts of the church which I feel have helped me the most in my walk toward Christ, in hopes that it will help others with a similar story to mine. My comment means instead of berating other Christians for how they believe, time would be better spent bringing non-christians or those who have discarded their faith to God. I didn't ask what anyone is doing to aid, I suggested that the time spent attacking other Christians could be better spent. Read your context: 2 Timothy 2:14,16.
asylumx1a 3 years ago
and again, my response to your first point is that we cannot be so naive as to assume that every professing Christian has been born again.
If our purpose here on earth is to preach the truth, and we cannot know for certain if a person is saved, then we are left with the need to preach the whole truth to everyone, not just the socially acceptable or "necessary" parts of the bible. professing Christian or not, it doesnt change my purpose.
brand0nabe 3 years ago
You're absolutely right, I can't assume you are truly a Christian -- However it is not my place to say you are not, either. We cannot know for sure if any person has been saved, but we can have FAITH. If faith is naive, then yeah I guess that's what I am.
You must have a real issue with the fact that there are so many denominations in Christianity besides yours, who don't all believe or teach everything your way.
asylumx1a 3 years ago
"those very young in their faith who may be searching" searching for what? not being a jerk here wondering.
Let's remember it's the Churches job to protect and feed the flock(believers) not to cater to the worlds needs
theatwo 3 years ago
You are fortunate to have known God your entire life, but there are people who do not know him, or who have been led away from him and are now looking at their lives trying to figure out what's missing. Why would you ignore these people? They aren't part of your sacred "flock" so you cast them aside?
asylumx1a 3 years ago
And like I keep saying, it is not my job to dumb down Gods word so that it is easier for them to accept. The Bible teaches that those who truly seek WILL find.
I have faith that Gods will will be done, and that he will truly save whomever he wills, but I dont have faith that every professed Christian is saved, just like I dont have faith that every person will be saved. Am I to put my faith in the words of fallen man when they contradict scripture? Of course not.
brand0nabe 3 years ago
ALL have sinned and *fallen* short of the Glory of God.
Romans 3:23 (Emphasis mine)
Even me. Even you. The pastors of my church; the pastors of your church. There is only one exception, whom died on our behalf roughly two thousand years ago.
I know you are familiar with this verse already.
asylumx1a 3 years ago
I never suggested otherwise.
brand0nabe 3 years ago
I believe in the past you have said you are of the Armenian persuasion. How do you feel about the recent actions of your Church's Clerics in Jerusalem, and please don't just blame it all on the Greek Orthodox Clerics. Is this the way true Christians are supposed to act. How would Jesus react to this behavior?
stonehenge1000 3 years ago
Here are some statistics;
53% of those attending GCC BELIEVE in salvation by grace.
43% of those attending BELIEVE in the authority oF the Bible.
44% of those attending BELIEVE that Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Now I realize that this is far from 100 percent but it is close to half, which means the other half is still immature in it's faith. Do you know for a fact that 100% of those attending your church BELIEVE in those things? If you say yes, how do you know this for sure?
stonehenge1000 3 years ago
Would those true Christians be the Armenian, and Greek Orthodox Clerics that got into a fistfight at the site of Christ's burial in Jerusalem? The six Christian sects that control the site are constantly bickering. Was in not Jesus that said a house divided against itself can not stand?
stonehenge1000 3 years ago
i believe someone???? is deleting posts.
i repeat...
have you even been there? how many times? have you watched the services online from beginning to end? how many in their entirety?
pmicah7 3 years ago
Attn all professing christians: What is more important, teaching 100% Scripture or 50% Scripture, 50% culture?
warmouth 3 years ago
The important teaching is 100% scripture to be a guide to maneuver through the culture as a follower of Christ.
caevans9 3 years ago
i believe we should do what Jesus did. teach 100% scripture with stories and examples that people understand from their everyday life. When he was talking to farmers he used farming illustrations (culture) to illustrate scriptural truths. so, my answer is 100% scripture, just like Jesus.
pmicah7 3 years ago
It's not an issue of using different means to meet different cultures, it's a matter of changing what the Gospel is. You hold to a religion called Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. That's the issue at hand.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Lane
What is your fruit?
What are the statistics for your church (referring to the three that were in the video)?
udecidetoday 3 years ago
wow, your really going to tell me why i profess Christ? your right. you are narcissistic.
pmicah7 3 years ago
Jesus said, "You'll know a tree by its fruit." I look at your fruit, then I know you. You, however, argue that "You can't know a tree by its fruit." I don't need to point out what's Scriptural and what isn't; it's pretty obvious. Perhaps if places like you promote actually took the time to exegete the Bible instead of things like Dr. Suess (I'm not kidding, there's actually a group of narcissists that did it), you'd be better equipped and not argue against what the Bible says.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Also, I see that you haven't met the charge of changing the definitions of words we both share. Instead, you give such a shallow answer as you have. What is the reason for that? Is it because you don't have a better argument than, "No we don't do that! No we're not that!" Please. I've seen kids argue for having their Juicy-Juicy outside of snack time better than what you've presented here and for something that you deem so important, that's a shame. (cont...)
LaneCh 3 years ago
It does show the futility of your position, though, so that's helpful to people who actually think things through and aren't "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine" whether it be Purpose Driven, Seeker-Sensitive, Relevance, etc.
LaneCh 3 years ago
The one thing that bothers me is Lane seems to think he knows what is in our hearts, just by the way we worship. The only ones who know what is in my heart are God and myself! I don't know what is in his heart, and would never profess to know. That is between him and God as well. I would have to say that anyone who says they know what is in my heart is elevating themselves to the level of God, and although I am a lowley sinner, I know that isn't right.
zark1959 3 years ago
Jesus said, "You'll know a tree by its fruit." I look at your fruit, then I know you. You, however, argue that "You can't know a tree by its fruit." I don't need to point out what's Scriptural and what isn't; it's pretty obvious.
LaneCh 3 years ago
PS. Zark, ad hominems get you banned. If you have arguments like the one above, you should have made them. Instead resorting to ad hominemns really shows where your heart is... it's a fruit and a bad one at that. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, but apparently you will take exception with that verse, too.
LaneCh 3 years ago
it is obvious that these people have never been 2GCC.
i went to bible school 2B a missionary. i learned 2do exaclty what paul did @mars hill &what GCC is doing.
1. take parts of there culture to teach truth
2. continue to teach that Biblical truth
3. after time they eventually get saved
i'm excited that they have drawn the unsaved 2their church using culture. means they R doing what God asked of them. as they continue2 teach biblical truth those people will get saved.
that we would wake up?
pmicah7 3 years ago
They don't have a church. The Greek word for church is called "ecclesia". That means, "The called out ones." In other words, its believers. A group of unbelievers is not a church, period. Do you have any concern that the methods they're employing are producing the results we see declared by them themselves? It seems like if you truly cared about other people's souls (and your own) you'd be worried about that.
LaneCh 3 years ago
their methods are to attract the unsaved (they've done that) then disciple them. they've realized they need to do better at discipling them so they are changing to make that better. most churches don't even make it that far. gcc has a great problem. how do we disciple all the lost people we have attracted? look at their growth rates and you'll see that they are growing from the lost instead of other churches. a church that only relates to the saved has to grow from transfer growth.
pmicah7 3 years ago
Once again, here's the point. By definition, Granger is not a church. It's no more spiritual and Christ centered than a secular movie theater which can bring in the lost week after week but also show no signs of spiritual growth. They need to repent of their narcissism.
LaneCh 3 years ago
have you even been there? how many times? have you watched the services online from beginning to end? how many in their entirety?
pmicah7 3 years ago
There should be a line drawn between what we can do, and what we can't do! Even though I ma teenager these kind of churches doesnt help me be more spiritual!
JCR0CK5 3 years ago 2
I might be a teenager, yet I find the pop church abominable. I'd rather go to a church where I can feel connected to my most ancient brothers in Christ.
Glorthac 3 years ago 4
I couldn't agree more, Glorthac. I think it's funny that people like you, me and Lane are the age of the 'demographic' (teenagers and twenty-somethings) that this pop church is targeting and yet we are able to see it for what it is, by the grace of God. Which is nothing more than a compromise of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
denyyourself20 3 years ago 2
Thanks for exposing this "Pop Church". It is doing exactly as Chris Rosebrough said. The people going to these "Churches" are FALSE conversions. They are NOT saved.
This makes me physically sick to my stomach. It makes me understand Rev. 3:16 so much better. These "pop christians" make Jesus Christ spue (vomit).
I can't believe these people sang Madonna songs in their Church and think these people are saved! Sickening!
LuvWorkingAtHome 3 years ago 2
caevans9: My question was in response to all the critics of GCC and Tim Stevens. They seem to take a few things they do regarding pop culture and make it seem as if that's the only content of a weekend service.
I agree that Beeson, Wegner, Stevens, and the rest are Bible believing men who teach God's word.
But my question still stands to those who say that GCC is not doing any work for the Lord: Have you ever sat through a few sermons from GCC?
blakethompson 3 years ago
i am intrested to see if any have as well.
caevans9 3 years ago
blake, I have one question
have you ever read 2 timothy 4:3-4
billiefan2000 3 years ago
Yes I have. Not seeing your point. Can you point to any in a GCC sermon?
blakethompson 3 years ago
I can,but first
can you show me how GCC isnt described like those verses I mentioned
billiefan2000 3 years ago
I answered your first question. But you've yet to answer mine. "Have you ever sat through a sermon or two that is preached from GCC?"
blakethompson 3 years ago
blake - i doubt that your going to get an answer on this. i've asked the original poster the same question. i don't think that they can admit they are judging something they have never seen in it's entirety. i've been there several times and see how powerful and Biblical the messages are. i don't think they are the enemy. just got fed one side of it by this video. i challenge anyone here to watch 3-4 entire messages and then say this pushes people away from God.
pmicah7 3 years ago
This pushes people away from God.
Anything else you're challenging? Perhaps I didn't jump through enough hoops to meet your qualifications even though my answer was driven by purpose. :)
LaneCh 3 years ago
so did you watch 3-4 entire messages? which ones did you watch?
pmicah7 3 years ago
Honest question:
But have you ever sat through a sermon or two that is preached from GCC?
blakethompson 3 years ago
yes, i have attended a service almost every weekend for the past 3 years or so. as well as the mid-week services for the past year. when i'm unable to attend, i catch them on the website. I have attended many churchs, none that have spoke the word of god as well as gcc's staff, at least to my heart. they speak gods word in a way that poeple don't feel as if they are being jugded by those around them. The word of god is taught.
caevans9 3 years ago 2
The bigger picture @ gcc is reaching the people & teaching gods word. If you expect everyone who goes to church are 100% believers, your not gaining any ground, not expanding gods kingdom. The snips you show here are yes secular, by themselves, but hearing the bigger message that surrounded them is the word of God...& is changing lives...
caevans9 3 years ago
This is just silly. The reasons the stats read as they do is the people who have found this church were searching & are still searching. Do people who walk thru any churches door automatically become 100% believers? They came in not believing & answered the survey honestly.
caevans9 3 years ago 2
We take our next step towards Christ, together. We're not looking for fear converts, we're looking for honest realization of our insignificance and complete dependance on God. Our God is no different than the Biblical God. The Bible says "When with the Jews, do as the Jews do, when with the Gentiles, do as the Gentiles do." Yes, we are called to be "strangers in a foreign land" but we must be relevant. Jesus preached about relevant subjects in biblical days, and so we should do the same now.
DoniKuehn 3 years ago
"We take our next step towards Christ, together. We're not looking for fear converts, we're looking for honest realization of our insignificance and complete dependance on God."
...and the results your business revealed shows that you're failing miserably at this task. I mean the leadership at these kind of places compare themselves to CEOs... did you know that if it was a company on Wall Street, the investors would overthrow the management if they produced results like this?
LaneCh 3 years ago
"When with the Jews, do as the Jews do, when with the Gentiles, do as the Gentiles do." Yes, we are called to be "strangers in a foreign land" but we must be relevant. Jesus preached about relevant subjects in biblical days, and so we should do the same now."
Yes, it does say this, but what it doesn't say is "When with the Jews, compromise the message, when with the Gentiles, compromise the message." Since it doesn't say this, why practice like it does?
LaneCh 3 years ago
that's just a viewpoint. we are not by any means compromising the message, the truth is preached, people are touched, lives are changed, and christ is glorified.
Our job as a church is not to rack up the converts. It is to love people, plant a seed, and let the Holy Spirit water it and bring it to fruition. If we see the harvest, GREAT! If we don't, we know that the Word of God does not return void. We do what we're called to do, God in his awesome power, does the rest. End of story.
DoniKuehn 3 years ago 2
I think the best reply to everything you've just said is to rhetorically ask you to explain the contradiction between everything you've just asserted and the statistics Granger itself presented.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Praise God that his children are so different. That makes it easier to reach the different types of people in this broken world. I believe in the Holy redemptive power of Jesus Christ, and so do you. Praise the Lord that we'll one day meet in Glory. Have a lovely life and live each day in a way that brings you closer to the King.
DoniKuehn 3 years ago
I agree that His children are different in terms of certain things. What I don't agree with is that the majority of those attending Granger are Christians. I'd have to basically ignore the stats to be in agreement with you on that fact.
"Have a lovely life and live each day in a way that brings you closer to the King."
I agree, but, as Granger has produced in their results, stay as far away from Granger as possible in order to accomplish this closeness.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Doni, just keep praying for him. i don't know that he will ever see what we do and why we do it. that's okay. i'm sure there are people that respond to his way of spreading the Gospel. I do pray that one day he will understand that thinking he knows what is in our hearts was very prideful. Love his heart.
pmicah7 3 years ago
You don't know Jesus, Micah. You may think you do, but its a Jesus formed in your own image. It's an idol that tells you that anything that doesn't make you happy or as narcissistic as you can possibly be is "prideful". I pray that the Lord removes the scales from your eyes.
LaneCh 3 years ago
I'm intrigued by this who conversation. You show these clips of secular songs and such, but you don't show ANY of the message that goes along with the songs. Yes, Granger preaches Heaven and Hell, but we do it in such a way that doesn't push people away, it pushes them closer to a relevant God. If it takes a secular song to get to the heart of a non-believer, so be it. And yes, there are a lot of seekers in our church, the Physician came to heal the sick. Weren't we all sick at one time?
DoniKuehn 3 years ago
"Yes, Granger preaches Heaven and Hell, but we do it in such a way that doesn't push people away, it pushes them closer to a relevant God."
You all do it in such a way that doesn't push unbelief away. There's a huge difference. If you're pushing them closer to a God that doesn't convict them of sin and the fact that they're already condemned for not believing in God (John 3:18), your relevant God and the Biblical God are different.
LaneCh 3 years ago
This is why people are falling away from the faith. They want to be catered to and "agree" with the man-made Gospel that is spewed and then when the going gets tough, they can't handle it cuz they haven't been born in the spirit but rather their own flesh. it's heartbreaking and nauseating and that the lord of all Glory is being peddled like an accessory and self help genie. He is LORD. not the latest "fad" to be used and abused
shockingalternative 3 years ago
In other words, pastors are realizing that they will be as scandalous as the Gospel in these modern relevant movements, so they desire the praise of men over the approval of God. This kind of mess is sickening to god, because it is a reduction of the gospel of His Son, Jesus Christ.
We do not need to be relevant. We need to be disciples. The Church is not relevant, but true churches are scandals, because they preach contrary to the world. Preach the real Gospel, as commanded by God to do.
fulfilledinchrist 3 years ago
...gag (for the first 10 minutes or so) "Church" is for believers to have fellowship, edify each other and worship. If seekers want to come, fine, but we shouldn't be "playing for" the heathen - we're supposed to be praying for the them and giving the gospel to them.
thrufaithalone 3 years ago
Why is the church following the world? The world should be following the church! Have we lost our salt? Then let us go to those that sell and buy (Matthew 25)
taketherainbowback 3 years ago
my guess is that we'll son see coaster-churches.. big fun.. yay.. :(
andreirocks1992 3 years ago
Shame...Shame...Shame
What!!!...
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous ,and God is angry with the wicked every day. Are you going to tell them that!!!That they need to be saved from the wrath to come!?!?
Ridiculous.
fiffafluffy 3 years ago
Arminian? ;)
maggoli67 3 years ago
The beginning part of this video literally made me feel nauseous. What are we thinking?
MotorCityPinup 3 years ago 2
This is sad. And I thought I was too ecumenical. These people don't even base their drama and rock on Scripture. No way are these kids gonna be the hope of the next generation.
An vast, dust cloud of individuals--to paraphrase George Will. These people lack a love not only the Word, but it seems books in general. This new Generation Rx needs Truth.
Dr0pDuckC0ver 3 years ago 2
how relevant was umm lets say Paul or John the Baptist
lozersk8er 3 years ago 3
"We experimented and explored" but obviously didn't explore Scripture. This makes me sick.
lozersk8er 3 years ago 4
how pathetic
tonebot 3 years ago 6
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I always seek Truth. I'm an Evangelical Southern Baptist and still find much Truth in the Church of Christ, Catholicism, Presbyterian (Calvinists)and in the Assemblies of God. As a former AG Pentecostal before attending Baptist Bible College I still have a Pentecostal bent. Truths can be found in virtually every Christian Church.
randy95023 3 years ago
Where we Christians discern scripture differently is where many churches part ways, but we tend to agree on about 90-95% of our Theology. Many issues we must just agree to disagree and know that God is Fair and Just! When we get to Heaven we will worship God together and probably get a little laugh about our theological differences. Love your Christian Brothers and Sisters and Pray for them always. Thanks for posting all the great vids and God Bless!
randy95023 3 years ago
All the "thumbs downs" kind of proves my point. All of you are CERTAIN that you are "right" when the truth always lies somewhere in the middle. There are too many arguments about fine points of theology for ONE denomination to be completely correct, be it Church of Christ or Southern Baptist. I'm certain where the scripture is certain. I trust the Holy Spirit for the finer points and that's where most denominations part ways. Jesus IS the only way!
randy95023 3 years ago 2
of course, some parts of truth can be found everywhere.... but satan always mixes those truths with lies so that the truth you think you know is know longer truth
Peacy 3 years ago
First let me say that I am a parishoner, not a leader of GCC so I don't speak for the leadership. I also do not asume that everyone is in the "same boat as us". There are many fine Churches across this country. Unfortunelately, I get the impression that unless we do it exactly like you we will be wrong anyway.
zark1959 3 years ago
If I'm "doing it" like the Bible commands, then, yes, you will be wrong if you "do it" an opposite way. From your arguments, here's what you're advocating: "Unless you agree with me that there are multiple ways to do a single thing that the Bible commands, you are wrong." So really the argument could be said, "Unless we (meaning me and those who agree with what the Bible says) do it exactly like you (not being definitive about what the Gospel is or commands) we will be wrong anyway (to you)."
LaneCh 3 years ago
See, that's our difference. I don't want you to do it like me. I think there are many ways to worship Jesus, and believers should worship in the way that works best for them, based on the Bible. I think we as Christians spend too much time defining our differences, and too little time embracing our similarities, and saving the lost.
What "real Church" would you recommend I go to?
zark1959 3 years ago
"See, that's our difference. I don't want you to do it like me."
Ah, but you do. No offense, but I don't think that it's ever penetrated your thinking to realize that you do. Here's how:
You think: "I think there are many ways to worship Jesus, and believers should worship in the way that works best for them, based on the Bible." So basically if we don't "think there are many ways to worship Jesus", too, we're not "doing it" or thinking like you, are we?
LaneCh 3 years ago
I'm glad that you are able to read minds. As you have said there is only one to judge who is right and who is wrong, God himself. I believe differently than you, but I won't go so far as to say you are wrong, it's not my place.
You keep referring to GCC as a business. We are no more a business than any other Christian Church in America. Growth is important to every Chuch small large and in between. I guess all I can say is check back with us in a year and see if we have changed.
zark1959 3 years ago
"I believe differently than you, but I won't go so far as to say you are wrong, it's not my place."
So do you believe that you are wrong? Logically, we can't both be right.
"We are no more a business than any other Christian Church in America. Growth is important to every Chuch small large and in between."
Do you apply your "logic" here, too? In other words, are you wrong, am I wrong, or are we both wrong? If so, what's right?
See the dilemma holding to your type of reasoning demands?
LaneCh 3 years ago
"I think we as Christians spend too much time defining our differences, and too little time embracing our similarities, and saving the lost."
No offense, here, either, but your advocating a business where over half of the people who attend are unbelievers. This doesn't exactly bode well for your credibility. (cont...)
LaneCh 3 years ago
In other words, if "a difference" is whether we believe the Gospel or not as this recent poll and years of evidence proves to be an issue, we need to spend more time defining those differences, not less.
LaneCh 3 years ago
I think the point that is missing is our Church leadership was stunned by the results of the survey. That is why GCC is making changes in the way we do things to give our parishoners the tools they need to leam in deeper to the Lord, through increased Bible study, and change the survey numbers for the better. At least our Church had the guts to participate in the survey. I wonder how many of the previous posters churches did? What would their results be? ...are you sure??
zark1959 3 years ago
We've been the ones who've been telling you that you don't have to take a survey to know what you all have found out by taking one so don't act like everyone's in the same boat as your business is. If you do, you're using two informal logical fallacies called "induction" and "straw man", and if you have to resort to using logical fallacies to make your "point", it's obvious that it's not a viable point to begin with.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Sorry, I'm Biblicly ignorant. That's why I'm looking forward to the bible study classes that start next month, so I don't understand what you mean by using illogical fallacies.
zark1959 3 years ago
Logic is used to determine if something is true or false. When someone brings a logical fallacy into an argument, the argument itself ends up being false. You try to lump all the churches in the known world in with this Granger business with saying, "At least our Church had the guts to participate in the survey. I wonder how many of the previous posters churches did?" That's called induction because not all the churches participate in gimmicks like singing Material Girl to get business.
LaneCh 3 years ago
PS. If you're looking forward to "Bible" study classes at Granger, I'm skeptical that you'll learn anything about logic and reason there. Why would they teach exactly what would tear down what they've built? If you want the true Gospel, I encourage you to transfer to a true Church that teaches it. You'll notice that the more you invoke logic into your thinking the more you'll see the error that Granger and other businesses are promoting to get business.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Your kind of rude, and come across MUCH holier than thou. I believe that behavior like tyhat is what keeps some seekers out of a lot of Churches. That's just my opinion.
I don't think the survey is a "gimmick" it's a way to find out how you are doing at reaching your objectives, and are you reaching people the right way.. Where is your Church? I would like to go to one of your services. Do you have them posted on the web?
zark1959 3 years ago
"I believe that behavior like tyhat is what keeps some seekers out of a lot of Churches. That's just my opinion."
That's a straw man. There are none who seeks for God apart from God giving them the gift to seek Him... according to Paul who was inspired by God, at least.: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
(Rom 3:10-12)
LaneCh 3 years ago
"I don't think the survey is a "gimmick" it's a way to find out how you are doing at reaching your objectives, and are you reaching people the right way..."
Why is it then that we've been telling that these businesses have been producing false converts for years? It seems that we didn't need the "autonomous" survey... hmmm...
LaneCh 3 years ago
"Where is your Church? I would like to go to one of your services. Do you have them posted on the web?"
I just moved to California about 5 days ago for law school, and am in the process of looking for one now. However, you can listen to sermons by Paul Washer and Mark Kielar that I've posted to see what I agree with. It's posted here on this channel.
LaneCh 3 years ago
"Your kind of rude, and come across MUCH holier than thou."
Yeah, if you learn about logic, eventually you'll learn about the informal logical fallacy of the ad hominem, too. :)
LaneCh 3 years ago
Red herring
Definition: Partway through an argument, the arguer goes off on a tangent, raising a side issue that distracts the audience from what's really at stake. Often, the arguer never returns to the original issue.
example: You, bringing up logical fallacies to someone obviously not educated on the subject.
jchcrawk 3 years ago
lol, so you hold that when people are trying to bring up arguments in a logical fashion then pointing out logical fallacies in their arguments which they believe are logically sound is a red herring? haha, I've heard a lot of crazy things from people defending their idols here on Youtube, but this is a first.
Please tell us more "wisdom"! That was a good chuckle. I hope you meant it as satire or sarcasm. Thanks.
LaneCh 3 years ago
This is what my logic professor referred to as the Pooh - Pooh fallacy. You pooh - pooh what someone has to say, so that you don't have to defend what they actually said.
jchcrawk 3 years ago
No offense to your logic professor, but if he's teaching that you can't point out logical fallacies in your opponents logically set forth arguments, he needs to be fired. Where does your professor teach?
LaneCh 3 years ago
He didn't teach that you can't point out logical fallacies. What I was referring to was, "haha, I've heard a lot of crazy things from people defending their idols here on Youtube, but this is a first."
This is similar to what a lot of political people do when they say "That's ridiculous, blah blah."
jchcrawk 3 years ago
Thanks.
zark1959 3 years ago
Ah, your going to be a lawyer, and I was just beginning to have some respect for you. Not that most Lawyers aren't smart. I hope you will use the degree to truley help people and not just line your own pockets, as a lot of lawyers do.
zark1959 3 years ago
(sigh)
ad hominem (n): 1) In an argument, this is an attack on the person rather than on the opponent's ideas. It comes from the Latin meaning "against the man."
2) attacking your opponent personally rather than her/his argument. Ad hominem is fallacious argumentation.
3) a logical fallacy of ethos in which the arguer attacks the proponent of an idea instead of the idea itself
LaneCh 3 years ago
Surely the scripteures are fullfilled in 2Timothy 4:3. How Spurgeon Edwards and Ravenhill wuold weep at the sight of this. It is a sad time when the Word of our Lord is substituted for entertainment. You are right nathanjonessr mans need is for a saviour. They are lost souls leading others into damnation yet they call them selves The Church
GodisHoly474 3 years ago
LOLOLOL at the "material girl"
blue13245 3 years ago
It is good to have some things to draw peoples attention, but after that you give them the uncompromising Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not suppose to draw them to Church: Church is for the Converted. The reason the Church has become the place to bring sinners is because no one is laboring: sharing the Gospel outside the Church: bringing them to the Pastor to tell them. That would be okay if the Pastor was John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, etc. It is the the Chrisitans Job though(All must Labor).
Creationcreed 3 years ago 2
Embittering and discouraging is right... When will the madness end?
Japhethite 3 years ago 3
Welcome to the world of what I call McChurch. We have something to please and entertain everybody except those who really want to hear the true gospel. We sing repeatious praise music and forget the beautiful hymns. We forget we can do both and praise God. We don't give people the biblical knowledge to deal with hard times because we always need to feel good about things.Just drive up to the window folks and we give you what you want and maybe not what you really seek and need.
derbyangel28 3 years ago 7
Boy, if I could give a hundred "thumbs up" to your comment I would, derbyangel. You're spot-on.
MotorCityPinup 3 years ago
It seems striking to me that the most important thing that these churches fail to remember is that the needs of humanity have been the same since our father Adam first sinned against God. We need a saviour to rescue us from sin. The Good News (most relevant and pragmatic news) is that Jesus came to reconcile us with God, to save us from sin and death. I'm not opposed to rock music, but the message should always be the same old gospel, not the humanist message that you're alright!!
nathanjonessr 3 years ago 8
So.... what happened to "We are in the world, but not OF the world? "These guys are reinforcing wordly values- it's merely entertainment t, with no power to save. Where is the gospel of Jesus Christ in all this junk?? False converts-yes. Real saving grace-No. I pray they will start teaching from the Bible instead of the Beatles.
RoxyleeS 3 years ago 10
you know the early church had the same cow when the brought the organ (a bar instrument) into church to relate to the unsaved. they said "God would never move with the "devils" music". you people are kinda funny. love you all thought.
pmicah7 3 years ago
Hi! I think you misunderstood my point here. I wasn't referring to the instruments or genre- I am referring to the lyrics and whole worldly mindset. Mimicking Madonna or the latest pop star, singing about sex, etc. is making the church look and act just like the world it is supposed to be reaching with the gospel.
RoxyleeS 3 years ago
it would be better if U had an opportunity to see it N context. you might understand better. U sing "material girl" & then come out and say that all of us have these tenancies in our flesh and all of us have struggled with giving too much value to material things. then you shed the light on it from the Word. Jesus did this constantly with parables. Story telling & poetry were the entertainment of the time. Jesus used a secular form of entertainment 2 teach truth. simple example in Matt 9:16-17
pmicah7 3 years ago