adorno meets synth noise trash

[moosatious]

Sounds like a video game. Just like that ever popular Michael Jackson, the world's best loved video game

[tlatosmd]

...Adorno's & Horkheimer's "Dialectic of Enlightenment" (1944, again, it's the starting point to all Critical Theory), Adorno et al, "The Authoritarian Personality" (1950, Milgram et al. later expanded on this, as is Altemayer today), Marcuse's "Eros and civilization" (1955), "Soviet Marxism" (1958), "One-dimensional man" (1964), and "Repressive tolerance" (1965). When you've read all that, you may come back and we talk about Critical Theory.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Critical theory is pseudo intellectual bullshit. Freud universalised his own neuroses in the same way Adorno universalised his own prejudices. The "Authoritarian Personality" isn't that Adorno's autobiography?

[tlatosmd]

To a large extent, post-structuralism, post-colonialism, social constructionism, social constructivism, deconstructivism, Queer Theory, gender studies, and social movements such as the feminist, gay, and the non-religious parts of the civil-rights movement were and continue to be based on or are influenced by Critical Theory. You don't arrive at a field such as anti-racist Whiteness Studies by saying that "jazz is crap".

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd All of which is pretentious middle class bullshit designed to pretend that without bourgeois interventionism progress for the proles and minorities is impossible. The fight for gay rights owes nothing to political theorists and everything to the bravery of individuals taking a stand. Most notably figures like Edward Carpenter, Havelock Ellis, J. A Symonds etc and countless other figures who fought their own battles. We don't need pretentious twats telling us what to think, read or hear

[tlatosmd]

Thank you for confirming you're not even reading my posts, otherwise you'd be aware that we said the same about Schopenhauer, only that I used less fog candles and more of Schopenhauer's actual terminology. If you can't even understand me talking English, how are you supposed to understand a writer that's fairly difficult to translate? Obviously other than you, I've actually read all aforementioned philosophers in their original German.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd We didn't say the same about Schopenhauer at all. The difference being I have read him and you clearly haven't.

[tlatosmd]

And finally, it's all there in plain English for you in "One-dimensional man" what all philosophy, the Enlightenment, and science deserving their names are all about: a.) To live, b.) To live well, c.) To live better than we used to, combined with promoting empathy and humanitarianism. Critical Theory is about why this program hasn't worked out as well as it could so far, and what part numinous ethnocentric culture plays in all this. Tell me where there's fascism in empathy and humanism.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd "Critical Theory" is a pseudo-intellectual movement in which wealthy bourgoeis whine about how ignorant and common the proles are for wanting to dance to Jazz rather than listen to wall to wall Nono. It has no other aim. Elevating the proles? What your average factory worker is going to read Adorno is he? Hardly likely, given that even his fellow countrymen cant work out what the fuck he was driveling on about. So we can rule out that as a reason. So what is the point?

[tlatosmd]

(Part 2) Also, how do you expect to make a change by doing nothing and starving, as you're obviously advocating? Even the best of philosophers can only be of merit by living long enough to publish his next book. It's funny you're calling him a greedy Capitalist, as most true believers of Capitalism would rather say that he was "biting the hand that fed him".

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd The point is that if you are setting yourself up as a critique of capitalism and denouncing your fellow men for commodifying art and culture, it does not help your case if you are doing exactly the same thing. If he was an outsider saying this stuff (like, for example, Schopenhauer was) then it would carry some extra weight. He was a part of the same establishment as he was supposedly critiquing and, as such, hardly living up to his own standards.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 Tell me, how fascist is it to suggest that people shouldn't be turned into mindless, obedient sheep by only being fed ethnocentric positivism? That instead they should be able to think for themselves? If you consider *THAT* fascist, then welcome to the Dark Ages, Noble Grand Inquisitor! I'd suppose that a pessimistic social-Darwinist such as Schopenhauer might be a convenient source to exploit in favor of positivistic essentialism in order to maintain numinous ethnocentric values.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Cut the rhetorical hyperbole. A culture that is rooted in the unquestionable authorities of people like Adorno can only be fascist. In the same way that the enforced criminalisation of "degenerate art" was by the Nazis. Simply an ideological inversion, only one based on contempt for people who are not bourgeois in their cultural tastes. Schopenhauer a "social darwinist"? Please explain. It would be most amusing.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 Oh, and regarding Adorno's language, I do admit that he's a pretty tough read even for native Germans. It's why (after "Dialectic of Enlightenment") people should probably try Marcuse first, as his language is easier to understand. You'd still need need a basic grasp of Marx, Freud, and Weber, of course, as these are the three foundations of Critical Theory. You can watch Marcuse in defense of Adorno's language by searching for "Herbert Marcuse on the Frankfurt School" here on YT.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd I am afraid that Adorno's overwriting is merely a carry over from Hegel. I suppose if one has no real ideas but simply wants to impress and confuse people its the way to do things. In Hegel the language becomes thicker and more incomprehensible around about the time he describes the supposed "snythesis" and next evolutionary stage takes place. Makes him very unconvincing and its easy to see why Schopenhauer dismissed Hegelianism as an academic fraud.

[egapnala65]

@egapnala65 Which of course renders the whole marxist shebang, in so far as its reliance on historicism goes a fraud as well. Karl Popper is the best one to read on that score.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 Those who can't even tell the Left from the Right are only supprting ethnocentric positivsim. You're only confirming my suspicion that you never understood Adorno to begin with, and you're still refusing to reveal your thoughts about Marcuse who wrote in a way even you could understand. There's actually a few of us who even value Adorno's writings for its aesthetic qualities also. And Popper in a nutshell: "All is well the way it is, so though shalt not question society." What a man!

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Given your rather ignorant perverted understanding of Schopenhauer , I have to say that it seems to be you who needs to read more philosophy not me? Is Marcuse where all that crap about Schopenhauer and Popper has come from? If so I would write him off straight away. And as I have said already that anybody who starts by taking Hegelianism as a starting point is not to be trusted I am at a loss as to why you think further comment on the posturing of Marcuse should be given.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 Tell me, how much have you actually read of Marx, Freud, and Weber? It's no surprise you have no idea about Critical Theory if you haven't. As for Marcuse, if we see Adorno as the brain of Critical Theory, Herbert Marcuse with his main works acted as Adorno's translator into a simpler language, and was the father of the New Left and the New Social Movements in the latter part of the 20th century.

[tlatosmd]

A reading list I'm suggesting to you to get a grasp on Critical Theory: Freud's "Three essays on the theory of sexuality" (1905), "Beyond the Pleasure Principle" (1920), "The Ego and the Id" (1923), "Civilization and its discontents" (1930), Weber's "The protestant work ethic and the spirit of Capitalism" (1905)...(cont.)

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd A reading list I will totally ignore as being wholly constructed of Hegelian derived bullshit spouted by wealthy bourgeois with no grasp of real economic strife at all. This insistence of yours that i have to bow down and worship this heap of bullshit is very fascistic in my opinion.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 You should read things before blaming your own shortcomings on them.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Yes, and when all else fails, you resort to ad hominen. Somebody who favorites "Slade" videos talking about Adorno? Ha ha ha!!! What's up? Bored of Stockhausen? Or simply a pseudo like I guessed you were from the very start.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 What you've said so far tells me that you once tried to read Hegel, couldn't understand anything, and hate everybody using the word "dialectical" just because ever since.

What's wrong with Slade? I thought you dig proletarians *AND* popular music? Besides, tell me, how realistic is the proletariate as the revolutionary subject nowadays? You still haven't told me why empathy and humanism are fascist. And it was you who invoked Godwin's Law, which disqualified you from the start.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Again you talk absolute rubbish. I have systematically read my way through pretty much the whole of western philosophy from Descartes to Kierkegaard including every single book Hegel wrote. From the Aesthetics I learned that Philosophy is the "highest" art, from the "History" I learned that the Gemanic race is the highest developed civilisation and from the Philosophy of Right I learned that the state is the most highly evolved form. Self glorifying rubbish.

[egapnala65]

@egapnala65 In case you need me to spell that out for you, this means that the whole dialectical evolutionary process of mankinds history ends up with a philosopher caught up the the affairs of a German state somewhere. It is frankly puzzling that only Schopenhauer saw through this rubbish from the start.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd I have nothing at all against Slade. However for somebody who is lecturing me on how right Adorno is about mass culture and how consumerism is evil etc and how imperative it is that I should take on board his bourgeois elitism, it seem a tad hypocritical on your part does it not?

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd And given that Hegel's dialectical rationality split off into Marxism (via Marx) and Fascism (via Gobineau) equating it with empathy and humanism is ludicrous. Gulag or Concentration Camp is a better way of describing it.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 So you admit that your philosophical education ended with the 19th century? As you apparently don't know it, I'm telling you now: Marx himself said that Hegel had it upside-down. As racist as Gobineau was, he was far from being anti-Semitic, and he had nothing to do with Hegel, his racism was based on Kant's racist anthropology. The very Kant of whom Schopenhauer thought that he was only completing him.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd My philosophical education is ongoing. Unlike yourself I take it seriously which is why I have no truck with self glorifying pseuds like Hegel. The only thing Marx said about Hegel was that he was wrong to indicate that mankind's dialectical history was tied up with a spiritual evolution when it was tied in with a purely material one. Hegelian philosophy is based on the concept that evolutionary progress is based on conflicts. In Hegel it is between civilisations, in Marx.......

[egapnala65]

@egapnala65 it is the conflict between social classes and in Gobineau it is between races. The difference that Gobineau has from the others is that he looks at it in reverse and traces a dialectical process of destruction backwards rather than forwards. So again you are wrong. It seems that your philopsophical education starts and ends with "critical theory" and that, even that you are hardly serious about. Interesting essay in Schopenhauer's "Parerga" about philosophy in universities, read it

[egapnala65]

"Kant's racist anthropology", sorry which volume can that be found in? Please give me a reference as, although I have read pretty much every important work by him, I can see nothing racist in it at all. Hegel's "Philosophy of History" is the real racist tract as it states boldly that black africans are so inferior in intellect they do not even justify a place on the lowest level of the dialectical ladder.

[egapnala65]

@egapnala65 Oh right. I have just googled and discovered some obscure study Kant made of differing races. From what I can see it is pretty much a work of its time and does not imply a value system as Hegel's does. I shall have to read it. Thank you for drawing my attention to another work by the brilliant mind.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd "The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of races" Karl Marx Neue Rheinische Zeitung april 29 1849

"Ramsgate is full of Jews and fleas" Karl Marx August 25th 1879. On top of this he published an essay called "On the Jewish Question" parts of which are pretty dubious. Would you like me to quote more for you?

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 As for Schopenhauer (part 1): He believed that might makes right because at the end of the day, man's passions are stronger than his ever reason or empathy. According to Schopenhauer, our world is a "Jammertal" that's governed by a merciless powerful "Wille" outside of our control that is somewhere between a deity and scientific causality against which we are helpless and that makes us suffer at the hand of stronger powers until we die.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Well that's a load of crap for starters. I wonder you read that? The whole point of Schopenhauer's philosophy (which i have read from cover to cover) is that every animate and inanimate being is the physical expression of a will to exist. The only difference being degrees of perception and awareness. The only difference between mankind and a grain of wheat is that the wheat is not aware of its condition and is therefore the luckier.......

[egapnala65]

@egapnala65 From this universal awareness springs bonds of natural sympathy which extends to all beings and, for example, opposes things like animal cruelty. By not allowing the will to be the sole determining force in our lives we gain inner peace and calm. Schopenhauer was profoundly influenced by Buddhist and Hindu scriptures. Given that you have now demonstrated a significant ignorance in quite an important philosophical figure I wonder how trustworthy you are on bourgeois bigots like T.A

[desnos]

this is shit

[tlatosmd]

I could imagine this as the acoustic part of some art installation on Adorno's biography and his philosophy, if only his words overall would be more audible. This kind of Stockhausian musique concrete, I think, is not too far apart from his complex, thoughtful critique of what he called "damaged life" in advanced Capitalism, just like all "classic modernity" in art (dadaism, expressionism, abstractionism...) reflected about ubiquitius alienation in modern industrialized societies.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd He was on the professional academic lecture circuit and didn't give his books away for free. He was part of the same "culture industry" as all those people he consigned to the aesthetic gas chamber. It is ludicrous to hold this oily hypocrite (and failed composer) up as providing some "radical" alternative to capitalism. He has a different demographic, to be sure, but he still made money out of his stuff in the same way as Nyman and Glass do.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 (Part 1) Remember, it's called "Critical Theory", not "*CONSTRUCTIVE* Theory". Adorno's intention was to prevent ending up with the same old positivism and authoritarianism by just creating new positivistic, perennial dogmas that couldn't be adapted to new historical situations.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 (Part 2) After reading "Eros and Civilization" and "One-dimensional man", I'm pretty certain he and Marcuse were working at an alternative by pointing out the flaws of a system where labor, repression, and exploitation of oneself and others are necessary to make a living, and analyzing what the socio-cultural and socio-pschological roots were to, in Weber's words, this "protestant" work ethic and the spirit of Capitalism.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd He still sold himself as lecturer and philosopher in book form for a considerable market value. He set himself up as the new authoritarianism declaring what is and what isn't culture. He was as big a capitalist as the people he "critiqued" (subjected to ad hominen attacks). Otherwise he would have remained an amateur or not written at all.

[tlatosmd]

@egapnala65 (Part 1) Sounds like you're one of those misunderstanding his attitudes on jazz and popular music in general. What he said was that commercial, easily consummable music and entertainment mostly serves the purpose of panes et circenses to keep people mindless, obedient, complacent sheep instead of being thought-provoking and making them think

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd Which is why he appears in Henze's autobiography strutting around declaring any thing that didn't resemble a certain amount of absolute chaos as "Kitsch." His views on Jazz are no different from the Nazi position. He was a bourgoeis snob who used abstruse terminology to try and justify a profoundly narrow, ascetic and limited aesthetic view. He was entitled to have such tastes on a personal level but trying to objectivise and apply them universally is aesthetic fascism.

[egapnala65]

@tlatosmd How would he know, for example, what people found stimulating and why? What would he say to somebody like me who's first major encounter with serious music was Ketelbey? Or Mike Oldfield? In his world there would be no access via those routes. Everybody would be obliged to bow the knee to Nono et al, culture would become a stalag grey ghetto full of Ferneyhough and company with no choice or differences. He's a repellent hypocrite, who's main aim is to keep culture aryan pure.

[QwertyBstard]

OBEY, THEODORE, OBEY.

[jaroslorenc]

Zajímavé!

[bobsinnepalshekitout]

clever

[dietsociety]

It's also great with the vuvezela

[Navidnak]

AHAHAHAHA. oh man 

[TheFakeseeker]

genius

[TheMadjazzer]

i love this more than life itself

[whereismyhero]

I don't understand at all. What does it mean? very abstract And we don't know whay Adorno and waht is the concept in fact?

[zerominusno]

like it!

[Bolinas1971]

Hegel taught that whenever something new becomes visible, immediate, striking, authentic, a long process of formation has preceeded it and it has now merely thrown off its shell. Only that which has been nourished with the life-blood of the tradition can possibly have the power to confront it authentically; the rest becomes the helpless prey of forces which it has failed to overcome sufficiently within itself. Yet the bond of tradition is hardly equivalent to the simple sequence of events in

[cuadradonecro]

how did you put the adorno voice?

[GernotDonatus]

hallo, wär toll wenn du das auch nochmal ohne noise trash reinstellen könntest

[GreggaryPeccary]

Da muss ich GernotDonatus zustimmen.

[EbClectic]

@GernotDonatus

dummgelaber