TZM Global Radio Show - Dec 14th 11 Host Ben McLeish - The Zeitgeist Movement

[mrjonno]

Ben. I'm happy to provide further ideas for provoking a "shift". I'm sorry that you haven't replied nor wanted any further expansion on the topics that I have suggested.

Predictions of subjectivity within a world not occupied with competition or where the next meal will come from is vague at most. I hope art will be something humans do and not via technology as the co-originator.  Humanity will be lost otherwise in my opinion but survival is of foremost concern.

[BenMcLeish]

@mrjonno Everything you said is fine - but you missed the point of my question. How do you get people to CARE about a move? In some cases, people need to see the human element of such a system, not endless facts about farming, politics etc. Sometimes (not always) people need to be offered a thought exercise in a very different vein. Perhaps then they're driven into looking at the whole model because they came in on an art-based angle.

[paronsoda]

Does anyone know who speaks in the beginning about Disney and the Grimm brothers?

[BenMcLeish]

@paronsoda Lawrence Lessig - "The Internet's coming silent spring"

[DrQandtheGang]

movies like Poltergeist are remade. The same story of Poltergeist is the same as just released, Insidious, or, "Day and Knight", with Tom Cruise is just a refurbished "Bird on a Wire" with Mel Gibson, a script not written by an artist, staff writers of the studios who know the adventure genre spit this shit out, put together package deals to secure funding, this is not art. Where money dictates what art is made, I might consider that another type of censorship.

[DrQandtheGang]

lawyer free zone.........I was just chatting with a friend about this, because through history and with varied cultures, law is like slang; you hear it, then use it and soon it becomes an official part of vocabulary after a critical mass accepts it ... Law is transformed over time and through human development, with our own evolution as does art and what is popular. The flood of art is usually a sign that laws are too oppressive. People can't help but try and communicate. ? thx Ben. LOVE YOU

[norvman]

Having been a Traditonal Artist for many years I have enjoyed the learning experience of moving to the digital media... and the all the 'new' ways of doing stuff... Art is all about the tools.. any one who doesn't want to learn the tool... really isn't an artist... they are only 'playing' at it and that's all...

[mrjonno]

After the sycophantic opening. An invite to produce nothing but expression... indeed… this is why we are where we are where we are today. Unless expression results in understanding and change. Art is ineffectual unless the message is understood.

TZM is naïve at worst and at best provides ideas for change but does not have any particular method to enforce them.. So the best an RBE can deliver is “what we can artistically deliver – and censorship will drop as well” cont'd

[hi2u121221]

@mrjonno The RBE brings forth a model that seems more up-to-date with our current technological and social status, outdating any other "medieval" socio-economic system up to today.

Our current society lets people have "so called" freedom, democracy and everyones opinion. In the long run that could make things even worse.

If you study more in-depth about what this RBE model really stands for and the solutions put forth, you'd have a better conversation with TZM/RBE'ers... Google "thevenusproject"

[mrjonno]

@hi2u121221 I'm fully aware - I'm in at the start. Go read the comment again.........

[hi2u121221]

@mrjonno I doubt it... Any social change requires a lot of riscs, you never know what will come out of it.

[samvallely]

i wish i could like this video more than once

[mrjonno]

@samvallely You do? I see this as delusion within society but society benefits from art...

You can see this video more than ever but you must provide insight as to why you want to see it more than once if you are to advocate it inanely.

[samvallely]

@mrjonno its not that i wish to "see" it more than once. i meant i wish i could "like" this video more than once. my comment was simply meant to be complimentary. if you want a breakdown of why i like this video... just listen to the video ;)

[samvallely]

this is awesome

[kji02]

Awesome talk!

[MetalAcitistJim]

Who doesn't like Norwegian Black metal it's the best!!! \,,/

[AndrewDeneHelbig]

Very good address, I think one of the best yet. And maybe a large contributor is the much improved audio quality. Great job Ben!

[akrulla]

Great stuff. I am an artist and I agree! Although I don't use digital means to create my work I fully support these ideas. Thankyou and keep spreading the message!

[oolong2]

Most of what you say about art and nusic is pretty obvious... It's sad that you actually have to explain it for some people.

Actually I find that most "success stories" are actually born through non-monetary motivations.

Even Warren Buffet isn't motiviated by money which is pretty evident by the fact that he plans on giving most of his money away. He's simply motivated by playing and winning a "financial game" more than anything else. He might as well be playing World of Warcraft.

[reevolutionable]

Good piont about culture cuts, didn't know about the uk film council, that really pisses me off.

Anyone else noticed the drop in quality of bbc programming recently?

[Gravija1980]

I love Norwegian death metal!

[Quiestre]

yay for grindcore blackmetal! asmodeus!

[hypernation2007]

@jukuro9898 of course you're right. I guess the overarching point to make is that Mozart lived in a certain technological state of affairs which had since been grown and exceeded.

[jukuro9898]

MOZART'S harpsichord? But Mozart lived through pianos!!

[Mr77Reni]

how can i be informed when will be the next Global radio......

[saydaysago2008]

@Mr77Reni sign up for the mailing list on thezeitgeistmovement . com

[Mr77Reni]

@saydaysago2008 thnx......

[hypernation2007]

@Mr77Reni It gets posted on The Zeitgeist Movement Global Facebook too.

[Mr77Reni]

@hypernation2007 thnx.....

[onionkeeper]

I get the feeling that Ben has the idea that art develops linearly from lower to higher forms, much like technology. The 3d printer stuff.. a strange tangent to go off on in scope of the topic. The Zeitgeist movement needs artists and machine engineers, strong, experienced thinkers in these very important areas. Whenever art and automation (in combination or separate) are touched upon by Zeitgeisters it feels like being caught in a slightly embarassing teenage dinnertable discussion.

[KnitePhox]

wow this was a top notch listen. time to check out the archive and this black mirror show

[KnitePhox]

@KnitePhox wow, black mirror is not available outside the uk or ireland; looked interesting, bummer.

[MrIzzyDizzy]

best anti market discourse on arts ever expressed. well done!

[SilverLadyBug999]

The 3 things that liberate humanity the most are: Art, Science & Love.

Speaking of Art, we need to look at the Art of Transition as that is needed to get form where we are now to Moving Forward into a Resource Based Economy. Science & Art share more than people may realize as they are about creating not just churning.

[123drue]

Its a shame you never cover fashion, I was curious on your opinion on self expression through clothing.

[JollyFlowFuck]

good that this is uploaded in the "original" quallity

[McPrfctday]

Just heard a small movement in Ireland because tehy are trying to introduce a 'house tax'. Where you pay simply for living in your own house. 100EURO but they hope for it to go up to 1000EURO one day. Where do they think they are? England!?

[MrEmpathicus]

great show, Ben. Thanks for your efforts. Wishing all TZMers, TVPers, Occupiers, other 21st century thinkers and all those globally who are struggling in our current culture a safe and as peaceful holiday as possible. Lets make next year a landmark year for our social evolution! <3

[mrjonno]

@MrEmpathicus What!! Are you remotely in touch with the world issues belonging to superstition? Yet you want to bless and not decry it neither do you advocate a complete overhaul of society from intuition to science and education via the Resource Based Economy

Scary that you have 24 votes - humanity is doomed. Delusion exists everywhere. The best we can hope for is benevolent dictatorship informed by science. I'd be happy

[hi2u121221]

@mrjonno Why hope when you can think, back in history any important revolution was considered outrageous, utopian, blasphemous (tlgo).

Revolutions will happen one way or another when there seems to be a need for a change, OWS, TZM and other movements are signs of a coming revolution and creative thinking by people that wants to better themselves and humanity. Not let our current system destroy us.

[hi2u121221]

@MrEmpathicus 2nd that! Happy New Year to everyone that wants to better themselves and humanity.

[mrjonno]

@MrEmpathicus So... You have no solution

[hi2u121221]

@mrjonno And again as asked before: Do you have any other solution(s) that updates the socio-economic model to a level at were humanity and our progress is today?

It's easier to be a critic, then come up with critical thinking.

[mrjonno]

@hi2u121221 Clearly you have not even understood that I support the RBE. This talk is about art in an RBE. I commented on this talk as such.

For a start it would be useful if critical thinking was actually applied to the original premise and not some misunderstood tangent...

[BenMcLeish]

@mrjonno @mrjonno The premise of an RBE has been discussed by myself and others to a great length. The goal here was to add more expression to the cultural side of things, which was lacking in our prior coverage. Obviously one does not start with this talk first. But without enough focus on the human and humane side of culture, people can feel alienated. I expressed this directly at the beginning of What is Corruption too. It was also born of several people asking me "What about art". So...

[mrjonno]

@BenMcLeish Thanks for your response Ben. Predicting the future is always going to be problematic. Generally I like what you do for TZM, you seem to have a good grasp of the issues and how the RBE is the most realistic proposition for ours and our planet's future prosperity. I was disappointed by something that at worst and best is wishful thinking. We have to get there first and if we do much of what our current society and bankrupt philosophy is will no longer be popular art. So?

[BenMcLeish]

Let me ask you then - how do you get people to want a shift? You'll have to cover all bases, not just hammer economics forever. Look out the window, MOST people don't care about their social model yet. Also re "wishful thinking" - all of the tech I discussed already exist and are waiting for Mass adoption - no predictions there. Aviary for tracking derivative works, for example, and 3d printing is now being adopted by many. The shift in what is artistically accepted is to be expected too.

[mrjonno]

@BenMcLeish If we actually get to the RBE the fact that art will continue be an important aspect of expression is likely what it will be though is speculative.

I think many people do care about their social model, there's a great deal of disatisfaction albeit grumbling and moaning without any real answers and an expectation that some tweaking of the monetary system will fix things.

Educate instead of support Occupy would be a good initiative. Removal of anarchy within the TZM too...

[mrjonno]

@mrjonno Some more...

The benefits of an RBE for a person with today's values - secure future, common purpose, expansion of the self, freedom of guilt.. many more.

The transistion the painless way - After acknowledgement that the RBE is the goal (the tricky part especially given the lack of TZM coherence) by societies at large (achieved by a coherent TZM with focus), rational methodolgy employed within a limited monetary system building green power and agriculture precluding full RBE.

[mrjonno]

@BenMcLeish Some further initiatives...

The scourges of religion and nationalism in respect to common heritance and causality of fundamental issues impeding the the posperity and spiritual wellbeing of humanity.

Critical thinking and the scientific method - the latter is so misunderstood globally and even within TZM. Wikipedia is not the scientific method in itself as I have often come across.

A need for a new philosophy - RBE driven. Hawking agrees philosophy is dead. Science...

[mrjonno]

@BenMcLeish And some more...

Climate change seems to be off limits as far as TZM is concerned, not sure why. We acknowledge science - CG is happening and another reason to engage with natural rather than fossil fuels power.

Education and experience - a requirement of every citizen of the world. I'm reminded today that town twinning is seen as defunct on BBC. It's more important than ever. Aspirations need to be global rather than local and even further... (not heaven or hell!)

[mrjonno]

@BenMcLeish And more...

Bucky as a source for JF and originator as the fundamental construct of TZM and RBE requires at least some discourse in a video or audio format so the general dumbed down approach to translation in simplification and transmission in new formats does not dilute the original message.

Politics and democracy is our problem. We need to become engaged to to get to the RBE.

People do not have the power - except for their destruction. People have power to understand.

[mrjonno]

@MrEmpathicus An organistation has agreement for what it represents in membership -

TZM-"a Sustainability Advocacy Organization"

TVP- alternative vision for a sustainable new world civilization unlike any socio-economic system that has gone before.

Occupy - We are the 99% - Together we find strength - commonality within our diversity - we stand together- we will advance together - we will occupy togetther.

None of this relates to the original premise..

[hi2u121221]

@mrjonno How could any other system in the past keep the original premise, when no real tests could be done?

I think you try to put forth your own opinions here without any premise at all. Do you think that you have a solution for people living in scarcity (when this can be avoided) etc? Do you have a sustainable solution yourself? I'd like to hear about it :)