Hilary Mantel - Wolf Hall Daunt Debate, Part one

[ab37z]

A fantastic read...I am up to p.155 in the paperback edition. And I have been stopped in my tracks. I can't speak for St Elizabeth, but would Mary have been surprised? I think Hilary Mantel has made a mistake there (an 'old-fasioned' open handed gesture of prayer could look like surprise). Perhaps a Biblical scholar out there could enlighten me? I will carry on reading; it is not an easy novel, but a bit of work pays big dividends.

[mbevel2002]

@ab37z I think you have to read what Mantel is writing in the context: we're getting the thoughts of Thomas Cromwell. Cromwell, flipping through the pages of Liz's prayer book, sees this picture and it's Cromwell who thinks that Elizabeth and Mary look surprised -- "one of them is a virgin, the other advanced in years" -- and not necessarily Mantel.

In a broader sense, though, I think one can safely assume that it would be surprising to anyone to be the vessel of the messiah.

[ab37z]

@mbevel2002 Hmmm...Maybe. Cromwell's knowledge of Catholicism would have been second to none. Therefore, I don't think Mary's gesture of prayer would have been mistaken for a gesture of surprise by Cromwell. I can't speak for Elizabeth (as it were), but Mary is the Virgin Mary and wouldhaved known her destiny (I think). It's one tiny detail in an excellent novel, but it irks me. On the other hand, I am no expert on this subject.

[mbevel2002]

@ab37z Yeah -- I'm not an expert, either; I don't have any fancy letters to put after my name like PhD or anything.

With regards to Mary, though, this is from the Book of Luke:

[mbevel2002]

@mbevel2002 "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!' But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.' (Luke 1:26-30)

[mbevel2002]

@mbevel2002 Mary isn't aware before the visitation from Gabriel that she's going to be the womb for the Messiah. Later, in that same chapter of Luke, we get this, after Mary hears that her cousin Elizabeth will also have a baby:

[mbevel2002]

@mbevel2002 "In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!'"

[ab37z]

@mbevel2002 Thank you for all your comments and references. I've now got to play catch-up with all this.

[DaniMajor]

The way she wrote More was terrible...

[Elliemental09]

The old fire-starter deserves it, though!

Wolf Hall is a pleasure to read.

[ollierat9]

@DaniMajor True,but More has had he's fair share of people who see him as perfect. We will probably never know the real truth of these amazing people but I think that neither the demon nor the angel will be accurate for any of them.

[Myleso]

A pleasure listening to her - quite a specialist. I'm glad she won the Bookie prize.