If a staunch Jehovah's Witness says they do independent Bible study, that they, as "ordained ministers" teach others about the Bible without the use of WTBTS publications, or that they take the time to read about opposing viewpoints, and the history and origins of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society- they are lying.
So in the same way JW's believe that the "real money" or TRUTH is found IN THE BIBLE itself. So to study in depth imperfect man's prospectives on theology or Philosophies would be a total waist of time relatively speaking.
I think that Cindy is clearly doing her research in area's she feels are necessary to support what makes common sense in the truth that is the Bible.
@MacTacMaui Cindy's level of "need to know" may not have outgrown the bounds of the WBTS yet, especially if she feels happy within the congregation. Unfortunately, common sense is no replacement for facts because it has too much to do with individual perception. If someone believes the idea of human imperfection is just a myth, then their perception may be very different - and may land "The Holy Bible" on the shelf next to "The Odyssey".
Just because you don't believe Cindy that she DOES study facts outside of the publications. The Watchtower Bible & tract society DOES encourage research of other religions. IN FACT they Publish a book that is the general beliefs of ALL the different religions in the world. ( Mankinds search for God.) Further , if you are tryinging to identify fraudulant money do you study ALL the fake stuff so understand what real stuff looks like? NO. Studying the real $ is the best way to identify it.
@MacTacMaui If the research of "other" religions is from a book published BY the WBTS, then you aren't researching the real thing. You'll learn only what the Governing Body wanted you to know about the other religions. Do they have a vested interest? Yes. The biggest part of being a JW is picking apart all other belief systems so that only their so-called "truth" will stand. Don't tell me this isn't true since I wasted 25 years as a JW myself. Independent research is taboo on the inside.
If Max Headroom and Hugh Laurie mated...ok that may be offensive..but hopefully you have a sense of humor? :-/..sorry I like to pick on ppl who pick on my brothers and sisters.
I understand. When your bros and sis' are brainwashed and can't source anything of substance other than WT propaganda, they need ALL the help they can get, even it's rehashed propaganda and even resorting to lame name calling, I'm sure they appreciate that.
You're truly a force to be reckon with. Smart and witty. Look out apostates, here comes
I love how the followers of a book that says "always be ready to give an answer" are the ones who fall back on "I don't have to prove anything to you!!!" Yeah, the apostles would sure be proud.
Also, notice that WithSpiritandTruth started this. She entered a public forum and claimed she did much independent research prior to joining JWs, and still does "almost every day".
She made the claim openly and without coercion, but now is afraid to back it up.
I endorse this video. RationalSkeptic makes a fine point regarding most JWs. They cannot claim to conduct independent research of their religion without studying "apostate" or dissident material. That apostate media is prohibited is a warning sign that JW teachings cannot survive reason, in spirit or truth.
Cindy, The reason we are keeping on like this is not because of any hatred we have, it is because we want you and anyone else who wants the truth to check it out thoroughly yourself. The very fact that the society does not encourage independent research should make you question why that is. Hope to hear from you
I think the problem here is the same as it was for me when I first became a witness.
Cindy feels she has done research on this new way of life but actually all the research was done using what the society reccommended and that is very different from doing independant research. As you and I both have said , Ray Franz was a member of the governing body. Who better than him to find out what goes on behind closed doors.
billsrdoris said: "Cindy feels she has done research on this new way of life but actually all the research was done using what the society reccommended and that is very different from doing independant research."
I agree completely, and just wanted to quote you with the hopes that Cindy sees this. Unfortunately, I think her cognitive dissonance has scared her away from YT.
I wonder, Mr, Skeptic, if you were in my place,would you feel compelled to prove anything, especially to someone who's goals and motives revolve around doubt and skepticism?
I don't feel compelled to follow the pied piper of youtube. What's more, especially after making this video, I don't believe that if I did comply with your request, that this would be the end it.... Can you convince me that it would, can you give me proof of it? :)
As I stated in the video (which I now doubt you watched entirely) I'm "pushing" because you have "Truth" in your handle, but I think you are not being Truthful.
"motives revolve around doubt and skepticism" -- I don't know where you got doubt from, but guess it is from a common misunderstanding of the Scientific Skepticism, which is, in fact, about determining WHAT IS TRUE, not "doubt".
You still refuse to answer a simple request for evidence (which is what skeptics do when we hear extraordinary claims).
If you actually had done the research you claim, you would have answered and this would have ended before I even made this video. Your refusal demonstrates to my satisfaction that you have no such evidence, and were caught in a lie. You have not properly researched your new religion using outside sources.
Now you're judging. It's not your call on who to prove what is the truth. It's easy, the truth will stand against any and all examination. A few keystrokes listing your references will clear any doubt, WIthSpiritAndTruth.
Right now, in the context of the WT, you can provide a "good witness" not so much to those who are Ex-jws/apostates, but to those who are the fence watching this video.
But being a former JW myself, and knowing the pickle you're in right now, I doubt you'll come through.
Correct, you don't have to prove anything to me. If you think that is what this is about, you have missed the point.
This is about *you* supporting and defending the highly unlikely claim which *you* made, here in this public forum.
As others have posted in the original WTComments thread, outside research is "verbotten" for JWs. If you are breaking those rules, I salute you. But I doubt you are.
Book suggestion: "Combatting Cult Mind Control". It's about the Moonies, not JWs. Cheers.
"If you actually had done the research you claim, you would have answered and this would have ended before I even made this video."
Baloney.
Out of curiosity, I sent an message to RationalSkeptic with exactly what he was demanding. I gave him specifics about anti-JW books & websites I read before & after becoming a JW. I pointed to 30 yrs. of checking the JW criticism and he still said he was "confident" I hadn't done this amount of research.
"If she had responded with a thorough list similar to your list, then I would have been satisfied (even though I would have no way to prove she actually studied the items on the list)."
Oh really?
Then why, only a few paragraphs later you change your tune:
"Yes, you may have done subsequent research, but I'm confident that you didn't do very much *prior* to joining, based on the evidence you have presented to me."
I mention I read many books critical of JW's and the WT, both prior and after becoming one of JW's, and I even threw out a few titles as you requested but now you're "confident" I'm not telling you the truth because you now you expect a more comprehensive list sorted by publication date.
I'm sure you'll come up with more reasons to feel justified in calling out people as liars... more demands of people to prove their telling the truth.
"SpiritAndTruth" was correct in ignoring your demands.
Your are *still* equivocating yourself and WS&T's.
I am holding your stronger claim to a higher standard of evidence.
However, you are CORRECT, if WS&T's evidence was as crappy and demonstrably false as yours, if her book was 'Hop on Pop' by Dr. Seuss, I would not have let the matter drop, *OBVIOUSLY*.
If it was, say, Penton's "Apocalypse Delayed" I would accept that as evidence of non-JW approved research.
I realized something: even I don't know what, if anything, I would say next to WS&T, since I don't know what here answer is.
But *SHE* does know her answer. I posit she is afraid of "when will it end" because she realizes her answer is so weak, it would generate more discussion, not less.
Unless, of course, she can see into a future that I can not see into myself.
And before you can twist it around: the relevant claim, by both you and WS&T, was the ind. research you did *BEFORE JOINING*
You gave me a list of 4 books, (two of which were not in print before you joined) and some web sites, which did not exist in 1979, as evidence of your research prior to joining.
*THAT* is why I say your evidence is *WEAK*. It does not support anything, *PRIOR* to your joining JWs.
Yesterday you said my list was "thorough" and if she had provided a list like this you'd be "satisified":
"If she had responded with a thorough list similar to your list, then I would have been satisfied (even though I would have no way to prove she actually studied the items on the list)."
But today, that same list is now "crappy and demonstrably false":
"However, you are CORRECT, if WS&T's evidence was as crappy and demonstrably false as yours, if her book was 'Hop on Pop' by Dr. Seuss, I would not have let the matter drop, *OBVIOUSLY*.
It appears to me that your demands are a moving target and you will continually complain against JW's and our beliefs no matter what.
So WS&T was correct in ignoring that request as I've proved by providing what you asked for and watching you still complain, ask for more, and state that I'm not being truthful in my statements.
It's amazing to me that members of groups like JW or LDS are even allowed to have access to the internet. Cidy's probably a night auditor at Motel 6.
RobNLynchburgVA 1 year ago
If a staunch Jehovah's Witness says they do independent Bible study, that they, as "ordained ministers" teach others about the Bible without the use of WTBTS publications, or that they take the time to read about opposing viewpoints, and the history and origins of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society- they are lying.
PublishingCult 1 year ago
Continued...
So in the same way JW's believe that the "real money" or TRUTH is found IN THE BIBLE itself. So to study in depth imperfect man's prospectives on theology or Philosophies would be a total waist of time relatively speaking.
I think that Cindy is clearly doing her research in area's she feels are necessary to support what makes common sense in the truth that is the Bible.
MacTacMaui 2 years ago
@MacTacMaui Cindy's level of "need to know" may not have outgrown the bounds of the WBTS yet, especially if she feels happy within the congregation. Unfortunately, common sense is no replacement for facts because it has too much to do with individual perception. If someone believes the idea of human imperfection is just a myth, then their perception may be very different - and may land "The Holy Bible" on the shelf next to "The Odyssey".
Revolt1680 1 year ago
Just because you don't believe Cindy that she DOES study facts outside of the publications. The Watchtower Bible & tract society DOES encourage research of other religions. IN FACT they Publish a book that is the general beliefs of ALL the different religions in the world. ( Mankinds search for God.) Further , if you are tryinging to identify fraudulant money do you study ALL the fake stuff so understand what real stuff looks like? NO. Studying the real $ is the best way to identify it.
MacTacMaui 2 years ago
@MacTacMaui If the research of "other" religions is from a book published BY the WBTS, then you aren't researching the real thing. You'll learn only what the Governing Body wanted you to know about the other religions. Do they have a vested interest? Yes. The biggest part of being a JW is picking apart all other belief systems so that only their so-called "truth" will stand. Don't tell me this isn't true since I wasted 25 years as a JW myself. Independent research is taboo on the inside.
Revolt1680 1 year ago
If Max Headroom and Hugh Laurie mated...ok that may be offensive..but hopefully you have a sense of humor? :-/..sorry I like to pick on ppl who pick on my brothers and sisters.
Imfelicity4u 2 years ago
I understand. When your bros and sis' are brainwashed and can't source anything of substance other than WT propaganda, they need ALL the help they can get, even it's rehashed propaganda and even resorting to lame name calling, I'm sure they appreciate that.
You're truly a force to be reckon with. Smart and witty. Look out apostates, here comes
Imfelicity4u! Keep up the good witnessing! lol
ah0386 2 years ago
Two parents get grilled over their religious beliefs.
watch?v=GZfqJR_rqNY&feature=channel_page
DoubtingThomas666 2 years ago
Great video! Keep 'em coming!
leavingwt 2 years ago
...boring! you seem to have a massive self-importance issue, please do a video reponse on why you dont! lol
marmamuffle 2 years ago
Wow, you rock. Ex-JW?
LuciousVBogeymanProd 2 years ago
I love how the followers of a book that says "always be ready to give an answer" are the ones who fall back on "I don't have to prove anything to you!!!" Yeah, the apostles would sure be proud.
utukkuxul 2 years ago
Good point, I wish I had thought of that.
Also, notice that WithSpiritandTruth started this. She entered a public forum and claimed she did much independent research prior to joining JWs, and still does "almost every day".
She made the claim openly and without coercion, but now is afraid to back it up.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
I endorse this video. RationalSkeptic makes a fine point regarding most JWs. They cannot claim to conduct independent research of their religion without studying "apostate" or dissident material. That apostate media is prohibited is a warning sign that JW teachings cannot survive reason, in spirit or truth.
WTComments 2 years ago 2
Cindy, The reason we are keeping on like this is not because of any hatred we have, it is because we want you and anyone else who wants the truth to check it out thoroughly yourself. The very fact that the society does not encourage independent research should make you question why that is. Hope to hear from you
billsdoris 2 years ago
I think the problem here is the same as it was for me when I first became a witness.
Cindy feels she has done research on this new way of life but actually all the research was done using what the society reccommended and that is very different from doing independant research. As you and I both have said , Ray Franz was a member of the governing body. Who better than him to find out what goes on behind closed doors.
billsdoris 2 years ago
billsrdoris said: "Cindy feels she has done research on this new way of life but actually all the research was done using what the society reccommended and that is very different from doing independant research."
I agree completely, and just wanted to quote you with the hopes that Cindy sees this. Unfortunately, I think her cognitive dissonance has scared her away from YT.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
Wow, you're really pushing this thing, huh?
I wonder, Mr, Skeptic, if you were in my place,would you feel compelled to prove anything, especially to someone who's goals and motives revolve around doubt and skepticism?
I don't feel compelled to follow the pied piper of youtube. What's more, especially after making this video, I don't believe that if I did comply with your request, that this would be the end it.... Can you convince me that it would, can you give me proof of it? :)
WithSpiritAndTruth 2 years ago 2
As I stated in the video (which I now doubt you watched entirely) I'm "pushing" because you have "Truth" in your handle, but I think you are not being Truthful.
"motives revolve around doubt and skepticism" -- I don't know where you got doubt from, but guess it is from a common misunderstanding of the Scientific Skepticism, which is, in fact, about determining WHAT IS TRUE, not "doubt".
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
You still refuse to answer a simple request for evidence (which is what skeptics do when we hear extraordinary claims).
If you actually had done the research you claim, you would have answered and this would have ended before I even made this video. Your refusal demonstrates to my satisfaction that you have no such evidence, and were caught in a lie. You have not properly researched your new religion using outside sources.
You lied about that. *END*
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
The truth, once again, ... is I don't feel compelled to prove anything to you... Why should I, would it change your views at all?
Believe I lied if you wish, I couldn't care less what you think of me.. you're not going to bully me into proving anything to you!
* The End*
WithSpiritAndTruth 2 years ago
Now you're judging. It's not your call on who to prove what is the truth. It's easy, the truth will stand against any and all examination. A few keystrokes listing your references will clear any doubt, WIthSpiritAndTruth.
Right now, in the context of the WT, you can provide a "good witness" not so much to those who are Ex-jws/apostates, but to those who are the fence watching this video.
But being a former JW myself, and knowing the pickle you're in right now, I doubt you'll come through.
ah0386 2 years ago
Correct, you don't have to prove anything to me. If you think that is what this is about, you have missed the point.
This is about *you* supporting and defending the highly unlikely claim which *you* made, here in this public forum.
As others have posted in the original WTComments thread, outside research is "verbotten" for JWs. If you are breaking those rules, I salute you. But I doubt you are.
Book suggestion: "Combatting Cult Mind Control". It's about the Moonies, not JWs. Cheers.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
"If you actually had done the research you claim, you would have answered and this would have ended before I even made this video."
Baloney.
Out of curiosity, I sent an message to RationalSkeptic with exactly what he was demanding. I gave him specifics about anti-JW books & websites I read before & after becoming a JW. I pointed to 30 yrs. of checking the JW criticism and he still said he was "confident" I hadn't done this amount of research.
I say baloney to your claim.
StudiousJW 2 years ago
Coincidentally, I was just beginning to work on a video responding to you, SJW. I will post it ASAP.
You have mis characterized our conversation, but the cleansing light of public forum will correct that.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
Here's what you said to me:
"If she had responded with a thorough list similar to your list, then I would have been satisfied (even though I would have no way to prove she actually studied the items on the list)."
Oh really?
Then why, only a few paragraphs later you change your tune:
"Yes, you may have done subsequent research, but I'm confident that you didn't do very much *prior* to joining, based on the evidence you have presented to me."
Make up your mind...
StudiousJW 2 years ago
I mention I read many books critical of JW's and the WT, both prior and after becoming one of JW's, and I even threw out a few titles as you requested but now you're "confident" I'm not telling you the truth because you now you expect a more comprehensive list sorted by publication date.
I'm sure you'll come up with more reasons to feel justified in calling out people as liars... more demands of people to prove their telling the truth.
"SpiritAndTruth" was correct in ignoring your demands.
StudiousJW 2 years ago
Your are *still* equivocating yourself and WS&T's.
I am holding your stronger claim to a higher standard of evidence.
However, you are CORRECT, if WS&T's evidence was as crappy and demonstrably false as yours, if her book was 'Hop on Pop' by Dr. Seuss, I would not have let the matter drop, *OBVIOUSLY*.
If it was, say, Penton's "Apocalypse Delayed" I would accept that as evidence of non-JW approved research.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
I realized something: even I don't know what, if anything, I would say next to WS&T, since I don't know what here answer is.
But *SHE* does know her answer. I posit she is afraid of "when will it end" because she realizes her answer is so weak, it would generate more discussion, not less.
Unless, of course, she can see into a future that I can not see into myself.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
And before you can twist it around: the relevant claim, by both you and WS&T, was the ind. research you did *BEFORE JOINING*
You gave me a list of 4 books, (two of which were not in print before you joined) and some web sites, which did not exist in 1979, as evidence of your research prior to joining.
*THAT* is why I say your evidence is *WEAK*. It does not support anything, *PRIOR* to your joining JWs.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
This is funny.
Yesterday you said my list was "thorough" and if she had provided a list like this you'd be "satisified":
"If she had responded with a thorough list similar to your list, then I would have been satisfied (even though I would have no way to prove she actually studied the items on the list)."
But today, that same list is now "crappy and demonstrably false":
StudiousJW 2 years ago
I said if *SHE* provided a thorough list *SIMILAR* to yours. But let me be even more bold.
The *EXACT* same list *FROM HER* would be reasonable, since she joined 9 months ago and those resources existed at that time.
The exact same list of books and web sites COULD have been examined by her prior to your joining, but they did not exist prior to YOUR joining.
That is why this evidence does NOT support your case and does support hers.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
"However, you are CORRECT, if WS&T's evidence was as crappy and demonstrably false as yours, if her book was 'Hop on Pop' by Dr. Seuss, I would not have let the matter drop, *OBVIOUSLY*.
It appears to me that your demands are a moving target and you will continually complain against JW's and our beliefs no matter what.
StudiousJW 2 years ago
Again, you mischaracterize me.
I have not said anything about JWs or your beliefs. I have been deliberately general, and keep referring to Mormons, Scientologists, etc.
This isn't about beliefs and this isn't about JWs.
This is about INFORMED decision PRIOR to joining a religion -- any religion. Please try to stay focused.
RationalSkeptic 2 years ago
So WS&T was correct in ignoring that request as I've proved by providing what you asked for and watching you still complain, ask for more, and state that I'm not being truthful in my statements.
StudiousJW 2 years ago
Comment removed
StudiousJW 2 years ago