God gave his creation free will and he respects the decisions that his creatures make b/c if he didn't then we are back to being robots
and by choosing one to go to heaven he is by default choosing those to go to hell too.. because we are robots and can only want to do evil all the time everywhere.we have no brain! does this make sense? i hope not. if it does how do you evangelize? god only really loves his chosen few, everyone else he hates, this is islam in action. not good news at all.
god gets the greatest glory by god redeeming a person and transforming them into the likeness of jesus...
hence...
god would get the most glory if everyone was transformed in the likeness of jesus
also
hell would still exist because of satan and his followers still exist. no person need go to hell for hell to exist.
2 because determinism and free will go together in a calvinist mindset there is no reason at all that god could not save everyone b/c that would show he is most loving/kind
2 god gave people free will, he respects peoples decisions because it is a greater more awsome thing than to not respect peoples decisions and force himself or his will on us making us robots... the creator asks do you love me? the creator pulls the string attached to his creation and a pre recorded voice says 'yes lord i love you' - is this love? no
3 if god gives you something you still have to accept it. if you don't it's not yours b/c you refused it
God is immutable He does not need evil for showing mercy or justice God revealed sin to exalt God Nature It was not by difference,God is not opposite of sin or evil.Condemnation does not reveal God neither sinners going to hell,or heaven.Christ is God's Oneness in Nature the Nature to reveal God's Virtue. Only Christ One with God can reveal God's Nature not law or justice or judgment.The Nature of God can only be satisfied by the Nature of God Himself for Justice done and righteousness imputed.
God has attribute of the knowledge of evil. Man has knowledge of evil more than evil he does.God is not by knowledge an attribute of evil but by Virtue has knowledge of evil Having knowledge does not make one evil..God created knowledge of good and evil Adam ate equally both; not more evil than good.Satan was a fallen angel of light not evil innately, he took knowledge of evil by exalted power used it upon powerless flesh.Adam never had a spiritual life,all was physical.
@FillTheirVoid Huh? Independent of it's nature? riiiight..., thats why we are sinners by nature.
So is this a "Red Herring" or just an erroneous fallacy?
You seem to forget you're referring to the God of full foreknowledge who knew exactly what end his creative design would produce, - but He is called love, 1John 4.
So when did Love start rejoicing in the wrong? Creating certain 'beloved' for the pure torture of destruction doesn't qualify one as loving.
@ergotrof I believe what you're attempting to say is God did not adequately train his beloved children to recognize nor avoid the evil deadly serpent before releasing them into a deadly environment without the necessary survival skills to be deceived unto death & the following torture of the pain of this life.
BTW, Eve committed the original sin since she ate of the fruit of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL, then in her awakened state God allowed her to tempt Adam beyond what he could bear
You glom onto the term "Perfection" & immediately insert "Not immutable" as a feeble & invalid explanation for why Adam could have been motivated to choose sin when what is actually more accurate are the terms, "God's Image & Likeness".
Jesus clarified that it is that within the man, in the "Heart" which defiles him.
Where do you find sin, lust, pride, etc in God?
Nowhere, therefore you would not find it in God's sinless Holy Spirit-filled image & likeness Adam.
In choosing sin, Adam chose the antithesis of his own essence.
Illogical and unreasonable rubbish.
Lust is sin according to Jesus when teaching about even looking on a woman with lust being adultery in the heart.
There was no more perfect scenario to show God's creative wisdom, God's essence or the perfect expression of obedience & Spirit-filled Life than sinless, Holy Spirit-filled Adam.
Accepting the unsubstantiated idea of Adam choosing death is, simply, complete intellectual suicide
@pacouli -Interesting that in your scenario God should need to stoop so low as to require sin and death before his glorious beauty of righteousness might appear as such to HIS OWN SPIRIT-FILLED IMAGE.
A better question might be, "Why would God choose the sin-death scenario when, in His foreknowledge, He knew it would result in the 100% failure of none choosing righteousness, no not one".
Evidently there was no free will since it appears the expression of free will necessitates choosing evil.
I know, this is just speculation... that's why I said "perhaps".
Clearly, we will never understand these things.
But at the same time we have verses like Rom11.32 " For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." or Rom 9:20-23, so maybe his theory is not so far-fetched.
If I built a self aware robot and enabled it to be predisposed to destroy other robots such a robot would be perfect in that it does precisely what it was designed to do. Is tht kinda what's goin on here?
Thank you Dr Morey for your honesty, humour, as well as your insight on perfection as it relates to the creature & what the Holy Bible has to say about the matter. Perfection or Perfected - excellent comparison. GOD bless you.
@gneisenau321 One whom follows Pelagius who taught that man is basically God's Image & Likeness, or 'naturally good'.
He also felt that no man should have power over another man's free will, that we should all have the same so-called free will choice that Adam & Eve had, without the predisposition of a sin nature biasing us to the wrong merely because someone else chose poorly.
@granjitsingh If Adam, the sinless Spirit-filled image & sin-nature-free likeness of God, when given free will, was not able to choose obedience to God unto LIFE, then how may we, sinners by nature, ever choose better, as in obedience to God in belief unto eternal LIFE?
Remember none are righteous, no not one. In the grace of forgiveness isn't it the obedience of the sinner in choosing believing faith which gains that sinner eternal life?
Are we sinners somehow to choose what Adam could not?
@0nedruss well if it would all boil down to free will maybe none would have "chosen" the narrow way. Maybe you have forgotten John 6:44 which says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." We were mutable at Creation but we have lost that...now we act according to what we are...our nature...sinners
The problem is that your definition of free will entails a dimension of being which acts in an absolutely independent manner from it's nature, mind, affections, circumstances, and God.
God does get what He wants, hence some are saved and others are lost. It was indeed His ultimate will that some individuals would in fact perish, hence satan and the rebellious angels to whom no salvation was even offered.
OR
God gave his creation free will and he respects the decisions that his creatures make b/c if he didn't then we are back to being robots
and by choosing one to go to heaven he is by default choosing those to go to hell too.. because we are robots and can only want to do evil all the time everywhere.we have no brain! does this make sense? i hope not. if it does how do you evangelize? god only really loves his chosen few, everyone else he hates, this is islam in action. not good news at all.
RedLetterChristian 3 months ago
2 cont...
and the fact that satan and his cohorts are in hell roasting away in the wrath of god does in fact show the totality of his attributes
oh, but there would be no free will and we would all be robots, but we'd be happy love filled mercy filled, grace filled robots=)
if god is (calvinist sovereign) and his will is always accomplished then there should have not been any rebellion ever.
AND he chose for there to be sin in advance making him the originator of all evil everywhere!!!!
RedLetterChristian 3 months ago
god gets the greatest glory by god redeeming a person and transforming them into the likeness of jesus...
hence...
god would get the most glory if everyone was transformed in the likeness of jesus
also
hell would still exist because of satan and his followers still exist. no person need go to hell for hell to exist.
2 because determinism and free will go together in a calvinist mindset there is no reason at all that god could not save everyone b/c that would show he is most loving/kind
RedLetterChristian 3 months ago
1 evil is going against god's will.
2 god gave people free will, he respects peoples decisions because it is a greater more awsome thing than to not respect peoples decisions and force himself or his will on us making us robots... the creator asks do you love me? the creator pulls the string attached to his creation and a pre recorded voice says 'yes lord i love you' - is this love? no
3 if god gives you something you still have to accept it. if you don't it's not yours b/c you refused it
RedLetterChristian 3 months ago
God is immutable He does not need evil for showing mercy or justice God revealed sin to exalt God Nature It was not by difference,God is not opposite of sin or evil.Condemnation does not reveal God neither sinners going to hell,or heaven.Christ is God's Oneness in Nature the Nature to reveal God's Virtue. Only Christ One with God can reveal God's Nature not law or justice or judgment.The Nature of God can only be satisfied by the Nature of God Himself for Justice done and righteousness imputed.
polopowers1 3 months ago
God has attribute of the knowledge of evil. Man has knowledge of evil more than evil he does.God is not by knowledge an attribute of evil but by Virtue has knowledge of evil Having knowledge does not make one evil..God created knowledge of good and evil Adam ate equally both; not more evil than good.Satan was a fallen angel of light not evil innately, he took knowledge of evil by exalted power used it upon powerless flesh.Adam never had a spiritual life,all was physical.
polopowers1 3 months ago
Comment removed
polopowers1 3 months ago
@FillTheirVoid Huh? Independent of it's nature? riiiight..., thats why we are sinners by nature.
So is this a "Red Herring" or just an erroneous fallacy?
You seem to forget you're referring to the God of full foreknowledge who knew exactly what end his creative design would produce, - but He is called love, 1John 4.
So when did Love start rejoicing in the wrong? Creating certain 'beloved' for the pure torture of destruction doesn't qualify one as loving.
"Do unto others..." and all that.
ILLUDICHRIS 4 months ago
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@ergotrof I believe what you're attempting to say is God did not adequately train his beloved children to recognize nor avoid the evil deadly serpent before releasing them into a deadly environment without the necessary survival skills to be deceived unto death & the following torture of the pain of this life.
BTW, Eve committed the original sin since she ate of the fruit of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL, then in her awakened state God allowed her to tempt Adam beyond what he could bear
0nedruss 4 months ago
Comment removed
Delivered0ne 4 months ago
More spin & double-talk.
You glom onto the term "Perfection" & immediately insert "Not immutable" as a feeble & invalid explanation for why Adam could have been motivated to choose sin when what is actually more accurate are the terms, "God's Image & Likeness".
Jesus clarified that it is that within the man, in the "Heart" which defiles him.
Where do you find sin, lust, pride, etc in God?
Nowhere, therefore you would not find it in God's sinless Holy Spirit-filled image & likeness Adam.
0nedruss 4 months ago
In choosing sin, Adam chose the antithesis of his own essence.
Illogical and unreasonable rubbish.
Lust is sin according to Jesus when teaching about even looking on a woman with lust being adultery in the heart.
There was no more perfect scenario to show God's creative wisdom, God's essence or the perfect expression of obedience & Spirit-filled Life than sinless, Holy Spirit-filled Adam.
Accepting the unsubstantiated idea of Adam choosing death is, simply, complete intellectual suicide
0nedruss 4 months ago
But if God is sovereign above every single events that ever occurred, why would he ordained/allowed that first sin?
Perhaps to be able to show us mercy and thus display the full specturm of His attributes?
pacouli 7 months ago
@pacouli -Interesting that in your scenario God should need to stoop so low as to require sin and death before his glorious beauty of righteousness might appear as such to HIS OWN SPIRIT-FILLED IMAGE.
A better question might be, "Why would God choose the sin-death scenario when, in His foreknowledge, He knew it would result in the 100% failure of none choosing righteousness, no not one".
Evidently there was no free will since it appears the expression of free will necessitates choosing evil.
0nedruss 4 months ago
@0nedruss
I know, this is just speculation... that's why I said "perhaps".
Clearly, we will never understand these things.
But at the same time we have verses like Rom11.32 " For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." or Rom 9:20-23, so maybe his theory is not so far-fetched.
pacouli 4 months ago
If I built a self aware robot and enabled it to be predisposed to destroy other robots such a robot would be perfect in that it does precisely what it was designed to do. Is tht kinda what's goin on here?
nosloppyagape 11 months ago
Thank you Dr Morey for your honesty, humour, as well as your insight on perfection as it relates to the creature & what the Holy Bible has to say about the matter. Perfection or Perfected - excellent comparison. GOD bless you.
For His Glory!!!
forhisglory700 11 months ago
1 Pelagian disliked this video
granjitsingh 11 months ago 3
@granjitsingh When you're right, you're right; and I know you're right!
fivepointbaptist 11 months ago
@granjitsingh
Whats a pelagian?
gneisenau321 10 months ago
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granjitsingh 10 months ago
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@gneisenau321 htt p://theresurgenceDOTcom/2010/03/15/pelagius-know-your-heretics
granjitsingh 10 months ago
@gneisenau321 One whom follows Pelagius who taught that man is basically God's Image & Likeness, or 'naturally good'.
He also felt that no man should have power over another man's free will, that we should all have the same so-called free will choice that Adam & Eve had, without the predisposition of a sin nature biasing us to the wrong merely because someone else chose poorly.
Read more here: en.wikipedia wiki/Pelagius
0nedruss 4 months ago
@0nedruss
Ok, thanks.
gneisenau321 4 months ago
@granjitsingh If Adam, the sinless Spirit-filled image & sin-nature-free likeness of God, when given free will, was not able to choose obedience to God unto LIFE, then how may we, sinners by nature, ever choose better, as in obedience to God in belief unto eternal LIFE?
Remember none are righteous, no not one. In the grace of forgiveness isn't it the obedience of the sinner in choosing believing faith which gains that sinner eternal life?
Are we sinners somehow to choose what Adam could not?
0nedruss 4 months ago
@0nedruss that's why we don't "choose" God, we do not just add him to our life....God chooses us and saved us freely through his Son Jesus.
Pyro7502 4 months ago
@Pyro7502 Oh good! So everyone is going to heaven since a loving God wouldn't leave anyone out & even Jesus taught to leave the 99 to find the one.
Silly.
Of course we choose, that's what free will is, as long as the choices are clear, otherwise it's just gambling.
Or have you forgotten the verse, "God wishes that NONE should perish, but that all might come to repentance".
So, does God, the omniscient, omnipotent & omnipresent universe creator NOT get what he wants from His own creation?
0nedruss 4 months ago
@0nedruss well if it would all boil down to free will maybe none would have "chosen" the narrow way. Maybe you have forgotten John 6:44 which says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." We were mutable at Creation but we have lost that...now we act according to what we are...our nature...sinners
Pyro7502 4 months ago
@0nedruss
The problem is that your definition of free will entails a dimension of being which acts in an absolutely independent manner from it's nature, mind, affections, circumstances, and God.
God does get what He wants, hence some are saved and others are lost. It was indeed His ultimate will that some individuals would in fact perish, hence satan and the rebellious angels to whom no salvation was even offered.
God saves His elect, His sheep, not the goats.
FillTheirVoid 4 months ago