Vanuatu Water drumming that is fundamentally identical to African water drumming

[747t]

I'd like to hear the Polynesian/Melanesian polyrhythm you speak of. (NOTICE) This is not an argument. I genuinely would like to if you have any videos or materials you can refer me to. I do not deny the existence of such as I will admit to my lack of knowledge. Even if you cannot provide them I don't argue it. Thanks.

[thotsins]

@747t Yes, understood, I don't view this as an argument.

It is "Identical" depending on whether you look at it through a western definition of identical or not.

In African mentality this is the same dance, so thus identical. There is so much variety that we do with just one style, that to us, yes, it is still identical.

In Africa we can play the SAME rhythm according to a polyrhythmic fashion, or a single melody fashion, & it is still IDENTICAL.

[thotsins]

@747t There is not very much good abundant footage on youtube but this can start a foundation for you...

Melanesia (are'are is known for polyrhythms)

watch?v=-5T0x2TAsC0

watch?v=40oTJbqLsCk&feature=re­lated (there is more than one melody being played here.)

Polynesians are also known to have polyrhthms.

watch?v=aVwy6NqbehY (more than one rhythm being played here.)

I took polynesian dance & played the drums so I know there are polyrhythms played simultaneously in oceania.

[thotsins]

@747t Yes, in africa we may have the most complex polyrhythms, but that doesn't mean all we play is polyrhythms and other places outside don't. And again in africa something being identical is not determined by whether it is polyrhythm or not, cuz we can play the SAME rhythm in both a polyrhythm & single rhythm style—and we in fact do! But it is the rhythm STYLE itself & the purpose of the dance that determines whether it is identical or not. The codes are in the style. We just get very complex

[747t]

@thotsins Thank you for the new knowledge :) but let it be known I never said Africans play ONLY poylrhythms. My original comment said that the African style "includes polyrhythms". The examples of water drumming from the Pacific that I've see on youtube don't. It wasn't meant to be an over-generalization but about the videos.

[thotsins]

@747t Sure, hope you enjoyed the clips.

[747t]

Title is incorrect. The African style includes polyrhythm. This is one single rhythm.

[thotsins]

@747t That's a minor difference. Same cultural stock, same dance. And not all african rhythms are polyrhythm.

That's like trying to say Chinese Gu Zheng & Japanese Koto aren't the same. They have minor differences, but same cultural stock.

watch?v=UcfcfHrA-3Q

watch?v=fqy_eJ6NRvo

[747t]

@thotsins Minor differences are differences, and the two are not as you say "identical". Do you know the meaning of that word? I've studied Ethnomusicology as well and I've yet to come across polyrhythm in Polynesia or Melanesia. African rhythm is the most complex in the world. You might as well say its identical to Native American rhythm or that Mozart and Beethoven had identical styles. In fact, you'd be closer to the truth in the latter.

[thotsins]

@747t . In African mentality that is IDENTICAL, you know why? Because traditionally we interweave our familial connections into our cultural customs—and african cultures amongst themselves have so much greater variation then the SLIGHT variation that exists between this water drumming & african water drumming—that the two are still identical enough for us to be able to tell that these are our relatives.

[thotsins]

@747t By the way—your so called "studies" in Ethnomusicology must be deficient, because polyrhythm is widespread in the Solomon islands, Tahiti, and the Cook Islands.

Also in Africa, not all of our rhythms are polyrhythm either.

This is why learning your "studies" from foreign western driven curriculum, instead of knowing the people thoroughly enough firsthand—always falls short severely from the truth.

[thotsins]

@747t And African rhythms aren't closer to native american,or European. To us, that would be far from the truth. In african societies, musical distinction isn't determined by simply using polyrhythm—but rather MELODY STYLE, in addition to the dance itself, as well as the message/purpose behind it is where the identity lies, which is how we're able to identify our relatives who use those same codes, like melanesians.

[thotsins]

@747t So the mistake you make is approaching the study of cultures through the lens of western mentality—instead of through the lens of the actual people—we ourselves. The way we classify kinship is COMPLETELY different from what you learn when you go to conduct your "Studies in Ethnomusicology."

This is why so much of what you say has already surfaced as inaccurate.

Polyrhythm is in both Africa & Melanesia/Polynesia—just as Single rhythm exists in both Africa & Polynesia/Melanesia.

[747t]

@thotsins And it is not a mistake to approach music through the lens of sound. Call it western mentality but it is a legitimate point of view. I let people speak for themselves and though I won an award at my school for ethnomusicological study, not once did I take their interpretation of cultural significance seriously, even my teacher said the exact same things you're saying now about cultural codes and identical purpose and meaning. I'll let the people speak for themselves when I meet them.

[thotsins]

@747t True, It's just the mistake westerners make is coming to a foreign land & making broad generalizations of other peoples cultures based off seeing very little. Then they interpret that little bit they saw through a western perspective.

I've heard it all from "we had no writing systems," to "our dances only consist of high energy jumping up & down," to all africans are "black skinned," & now to "we play polyrhythms only."

So, I'm sure you know what I mean.

[thotsins]

@747t I hate when people try to AMPLIFY minor differences btwn our peoples. Let's not play w/ words. According to the unique codes that exist in our cultures, It is "Identical" enough to us to know both dances come from the same cultural root. Western Kamis R primarily Cush/Mizraim, eastern Kamis R largely Knaan/ Mizraim & some Kush.

Same dance, but according to the slight difference in style common to each section of our families, just like the slight differences in the Asian Zithers above.

[747t]

@thotsins I see what you're saying now. Yes, from a cultural perspective the MEANING they have may be identical. That doesn't mean the two are indistinguishable, or "identical". You don't explain that and it would be very helpful to have that sort of explanation in the caption, rather than just proclaiming the two as simply the same, which for 99% of musicians they are not. I am a musician, not an expert on culture. I am not African born nor sufficiently educated, "decolonized", what have you.

[thotsins]

@747t Well this video was not made for westerners, the way europeans classify cultural characteristics/kinship is VERY different from a lot of other cultures.

This video was made for pacific islanders/africans who asked to see footage of the dances & cultural aspects we have in common, and most of us know what we mean when we say "identical" or "same."

But for others who don't understand our traditional concept of "identical," yes, I could modify the title.

[747t]

@thotsins I see that your point has some validity when placed in context. Africa is the most genetically and culturally diverse continent - that is known and largely unacknowledged. Yet still, the cultures are different. Have you consulted Melanesians or Polynesians on their level of kinship with Africans? You might find many see more difference than similarity. I known many of both for myself, and trust me, they differ. Its like white feminists who see a "global sisterhood" where others do not.

[thotsins]

@747t "Have you consulted Melanesians or Polynesians on their level of kinship with Africans?"

YES, did that a long time ago. And from us both consulting together our traditions both say we and our cultures originated from the same identical stock.

The only people who disagree are ignorant people have not done enough research of both sides, African & Oceanic. The differences are more minute compared to the identical features.

[NapaValleyEstates]

And can you imagine... some people look at these people and think... hmmm what sort of resources can we steal from these people?

[SpectacularFrontiers]

That comment was very peculiar and interesting. Now I don't hate whites but that made me think about all the propaganda we are inundated with in the west about light skin. I also recall Leonardo D'Caprio had the same experience when he met indigionous Amazonian tribes in Brazil. They said his and his girlfriend's skin looked ugly. Hm, that makes one reevaluate all our beliefs about skin color. Are we brainwashed?

[monica24b]

@SpectacularFrontiers yes we are brainwashed because there is a system of white supremacy in this world.

[SpectacularFrontiers]

A mind opening experience happened to me a few weeks ago. I was chatting with a young white woman who had just finished traveling around the world alone. She went to places most Americans don't go. Peru- Amazon region,South India, Mauritious, Malaysia, you name it. She also went to that Island on this video as well, Vanuatu. She told me the "Blacks" there hardly see white people. At first they were freightened by her white pale skin tone. Those were her exact words

[mangosteen871]

@thotsins

i hav a theory .i think these vanuatuans and solomon islanders came directly form africa and we papuans came from south east asia after evolving for a while.

[thotsins]

@mangosteen871 Humans didn't evolve—certain groups came into existence simply through mixing.

By the way whether from Vanuatu, Solomon Islands, or Papua New Guinea—all of you have African Genes.

You have the M strain which clusters with that of certain East and West Africans, hon.

All of you came from Africa.

[thotsins]

@mangosteen871 Southeast Asia was originally inhabited by black people who the chinese called "Kunlun," the men of the sea who used outriggers.

In Africa about 2,000 years ago, the kings of Msiri were sending out expeditions to set up colonies in southeast asia to bring back resources. These descendants are who the chinese called "Kunlun."

If you thinkg Papuans came from southeast asia, then that still makes you descendant of these groups, thus from Africa.

[creaturedesmarais]

Wonderful. Viva Vanuatu !

[bodyfusion]

da tanzen die fische

[kalgol12]

Amazingly beautiful!



[SuziQsBirds]

Absolutely beautiful! Thank you for posting this!