Democracy & Capitalism: An 80/20 thought experiment

[metalorg]

Why don't democratically structured unions of workers just start up their own businesses and factories instead of bargaining and selling labor to these bourgoise guys? All the workers could raise the initial capital together.

Doesn't this happen in the real world? How does it get turned into top-down distribution of power?

Btw, nice microphone but bad blinds.

[Menace3434]

well workers are paid in wages and people that are paid in wages can't afford to really invest if you look at it historically plus banks rarely grant loans to collectives so it's not really possible tough they are workers cooperatives in the world one of them is the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation they are big here in Europe and in Latin America plus a real change should come when a revolution starts and the state is abolished and the wealth is redistributed among workers cooperatives

[1studentoftruth]

I think it would be important gather a large following, or to either spread the ideas of marx, without calling it socialism. People fear that word. They always say that they'll have no freedom under such a system; but what they don't realize is that soon they won't have the bit of freedom that they do have.

[agenttachyon]

"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life.

Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth. "

-Preamble to the IWW constitution.

[Kropotkin2000]

Eloquent and lucid as always, nice to see a video from you again.

[samsonlovesyou]

The numbers question is something that struck me recently. Anarcho-capitalists want to break the state - but how? The workers outnumber them.

[OntologicalQuandary]

The thing is, this guy and anarcho-capitalists both despise the current system and want freedom for everyone. Although they are vastly different in ideology, both groups strive to find a way that preserves the people's liberty.

Perhaps we should stop hating each others ideas and try to work together. I know it sounds impossible, but at the core, we are all the same. We hate elitists thinking they can control us, and we want it to end. Now.

[watermelonygoodness]

@OntologicalQuandary Anarcho-Capitalists only hate elitists thinking they can control us when those elitists are part of the state. They have no problem with elitists controlling us as long as they do it through private enterprise. Capitalists don't want to preserve liberty, they want to preserve property. At the core we are not the same. At the core we are polar opposites.

[NewTet]

As long as workers remain intellectually unaware of the irreconcilable antagonism between themselves and the employer class they will fail to unite into "one big industrial union". And if they do become aware and unite, they will still require a political component with which to challenge the employer for control of the political state with a view to its immediate abolition, placing the "one big union" in democratic control of society.

[unit023]

I hate to sound nihilistic, but I don't see how capitalists will ever relinquish control without a crisis large enough to sufficiently awaken & unify workers. The 80/20 scenario never be accepted by capitalist without external coercion of some kind.

As painful as it may be, what is needed is a total tearing down in order to build a new and better system. Hopefully this can be done non-violently.

[samsonlovesyou]

It's highly unlikely to happen non-violently, although the rest of your comment I can agree with.

The state is, by Weberan definition, the monopoly on power. Turkeys rarely vote for Christmas, and likewise, capitalists won't merely stand aside as their industries are expropriated by workers.

Pacifism merely aids capitalists, and I have to take the Maoist view that violence should be embraced so as not to dull revolutionary senses. Workers should be prepared to defend themselves physically.

[flyhead2]

Many truths, but I struggle with the assumption that workers constituting a powerful labour union would automatically be uncorrupted by their innate power, and that these would show solidarity to competitors, especially if these occupied a foreign nation. Power has corrupted the Industrialists, but why should labourers be any different?

[1studentoftruth]

That's the real and last issue that needs to be answered before the revolution begins?

Not everyone is a marxist, and not everyone would understand. I would hope that people would be sensible at that point. But then again, these are the same people who trample people to death(literally) in trying to get a bargain for a wal-mart sell. Or the same people who try be the first person on the city bus despite the availabilty seats.

[flyhead2]

What an intolerant, solipsic and petulant reply. Unless one slavishly follows Marx, an advocate of an all powerful central bank, one is irrelevant? Please don't reply, your words will not be respected or taken seriously.

[TheDystopiaInside]

I hear what you're saying about the working class having the vast majority of people and therefore potentially the most force. This might be true if we lived in a world where people fought with sticks and stones, but the 20% have all the money and often use it to develop weapons, security systems, etc -- things that are meant to KEEP what they have, that's why the state exists, for example, and there's no way that we could begin to overthrow such a thing. Technology has changed how power works.

[jrpigg]

I think this line of reasoning is self defeating. Who do you think makes all those fancy weapons & security systems? Yes ... that's right: the workers.

If the workers really got enough momentum, no capitalist would be able to protect his/her own "property."

The state is ultimately their only means of defense, but even then, it's not hopeless ... revolutions really happen.

[buddhagem]

Great job, brother. Really appreciate you bouncing this off my video. Hope the documentary is going well. Can't wait to see it.

[ZamatoElite]

You are a smart guy. How old are you?

[nijaexhile3]

Yaay!...mr nights is back

[cloudmonkeys]

great stuff as per usual