Got my reminder for the 2011 Census today. Still not getting filled out. I don't have a phone and I'm not going to stand outside the 7-11 calling my government. I have the option to do it online but but I have to give them a phone number? That's like requiring a VCR to play DVDs
The death of the long form is a disaster for people who plan health care and social services. It's like the the Rhinocerus Party's joke about eliminating poverty by eliminating stats Canada has come true. If you don't document a a problem, you have no moral obligation to fix it.
Well McIntoski, I don't know what I've said that would lead anyone to believe that I have no respect for democracy or freedom...but clearly you still don't get it, so I accept your surrender....
McIntoski you, and the fascist losers in this video, are wrong. You can dress it up with witty high-school level 'skits' all you want, but the fact is that you're pro-oppression and pro-government domination, and that is anathema to democracy and freedom. You, and your Alinsky-loving, Obama-sucking ilk need to go straight to hell.
@UncleSack I see no point in responding to you. Your mouth is bigger than your brain, and your delusional characterizations are a poor excuse for arguments. And while you may pretend otherwise, you clearly have no respect for the democratic process or the freedoms of those who do not share your misguided views.
I don't agree with you McIntoski. At all. It's a fabulous idea to give Canadians more freedom from bureaucracy. My only complaint is that the Conservatives never go far enough in clear cutting more public servants, inane regulations and wasteful spending. This is a minor issue blown out of proportion by a desperate left. I think you'd be happier moving to the U.S., it's fast becoming the socialist, oppressive paradise you clearly crave, thanks to that rotten jackass Obama...
@UncleSack Get a grip. It doesn't take a "desperate left" to see that spending millions more taxpayer dollars on less reliable stats is bad policy. A libertarian such as yourself should see this, if nothing else.
Hey McIntoski, this is Canada. We have nothing but dumb governments spending our money carelessly. I don't want government threatening me with jail over the census, these people are idiots, and Trudeau isn't dead enough for me. Satisfied?
@UncleSack Well you must be a fan of the present government, it's spending more of your money (by sending the long form to more people), to get less reliable date (by making it voluntary). If you or anyone else is actually bothered by the jail "threat", which was never exercised and was until recently a non-issue, then the government could simply replace it with a small fine.
So let me get this straight...you WANT the government to know minute detail about your life, and are willing to be jailed by not providing it? I hate you all...
@UncleSack - If the "minute details" are critical for providing government services efficiently, then absolutely. Do you prefer all three levels of government make decisions based on unreliable data? You prefer a dumb government to a smart one?
@McIntoski Would you call what we presently have an efficient delivery of services? That the governments of the past 40 years have made intelligent decisions? That bureaucrats and politicians actually heed the data recorded through the census instead of making their own empire-building/pork-barrelling/vote-buying decisions for crass political/administrative purposes? Do you actually believe that the census matters one jot to Parliament and the civil service?
@sweatysock9 Yes, I think it does matter. Not just to bureaucrats, but to the hundreds of other organizations, groups, and small businesses that rely on census data.
Also, I don't follow your reasoning. You allege that governments haven't always used the tools available to them to make the best decisions... so out of spite you would deny these tools to the entire civil service?
@McIntoski Then I have this bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
Do you honestly think that the civil service uses the data of the census for the benefit of Canadians, or do you think that they use it for their own empire-building exercises? Or is yet another set of government programs with yet another layer of managerial non-jobs in the best interests of Canadians? As the saying goes; "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureaucracy".
@sweatysock9 Funny quote. But regardless of your personal cynicism towards the public service, I think we can agree that the Conservative plan for the long form census is a poor example of "trimming the fat", if that was ever the intent. Killing statistics is liposuction to the brain.
None of you have even had sexual relations at all in your lives, isn't that right. Statistics: a career for dull, virginal bed-wetters like the cretins who made this appallingly bad video.
Is it possible that Stephen Harper wants to lessen the accuracy of census data so that he can distribute money in a way that favors Conservative ridings?
@snodgrass9432 Possible, but unlikely because getting rid of the long-form census is kind of a Wile E. Coyote-style, roundabout way of achieving that result. If the Torries wanted to change the way money is distributed to ridings, they could just do that.
They should call themselves the Government Laphounds... if they're so anxious to please the authorities and business and big guv, let them do it on their own. Trouble is, in this so-called democracy, there's really no free choice in a system that caters to personal convenience and self-aggrandizement. You go with the herd or else. People forget that dictatorships aren't built in a day, they're built one brick at a time, over time, just like any prison, eroding one freedom after another.
What a bunch of morons. If they wanted to be counted in just fill in the census forms when they come, no one is stopping them. What they are essentially singing for is, "Please count me in, and put me in jail or fine me if I don't comply with the government's data gathering efforts." I say, "Give us more freedom instead." Don't be sheep and listen to Liberal/CBC propaganda.
Bravo! G&M says Flaherty, Clement lobbied economist?! Harper NOT cut mandatory census, opposed decision. Yet Clement now shilling "Harper's decree"! Political expediency stats Minister putting own ... Party before Canadian public's interest?! Its linchpin role shapes, funds crucial PROGRESSIVE public policy, programs, services for ALL Canadians. Harper's autocratic mien, cynical politics gut StatsCan 2011 census results “in advance”, trump democracy, good govt. Surprised, no. Shameful, yes!
I'd love to see these right-wing conspiracy genius' (it's Harper and Palin!) address the fact that many European countries like those great right-wing bastions Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway have abandoned the census altogether, Britain is looking to scrap it and Germans are outraged at the prospect of its government trying to collecting census data on 10% of it's population.
@SurecureX The Scandinavian countries and Netherlands do not need census information collected in the way StatsCan does. Instead they have compulsory registration of all people (you must register with municipal authorities or police within five days of changing residence in the Netherlands for example) and a single universal identifier that links to all gov't files. It generates great data.
@coryherrera Exactly. Thank you for backing up my point that the kind of long-form census data that is being extorted from Canadians is not necessary and that there are better ways of obtaining the only necessary information. You would figure that a technologically and economically advanced country like Canada would be able to stand toe to toe with these countries.
Oh yes, I remember having to live in Europe and being forced to register with the police right away.... funny you do not find this an intrusion of absolute freedom. And how is the data being generated? from the government files?
I would support some sort of alternative if it can generate the same quality of data. But Harper has no such proposal but to add a few extra questions on the short-form census?
The European census have privacy concerns of their own. Not to mention forced registration in my opinion is a greater intrusion to the absolute freedom that the Libertarian right demands.
I fucking hate Harper and his Conservative cronies for doing this. Only one out of 10 has to fill out the long census. I don''t think that's too much to ask. And, I can't wait until the next Federal election when he is tossed out on his ass. The NDP and Liberals should bring down the govt for this. I think it's that important. Important enough for the head of StatsCan to resign. I guess they think they didn't piss us off enough with the G8 and G20 summits. They're seeing how far they can go.
The governments will make poor choices and run programs badly no matter what. As voters and citizens the only things we can do is try and vote the idiots out of office as often as possible and make sure the competent gov types get accurate information about what is needed. Name, marital status, language does nothing to help determine if a community needs more special ed programs, fewer permits given to make expensive homes, or more funding to Universities. That's what the long form is for.
@OttawaAnon1001 Once again... Special Ed: provincial matter. Home permits: municipal matter. University funding: provincial matter. And we already have methods of precise scientific measurement to determine all of these.
Cesus Canada get out of my life and stop prying in areas where you dont belong. STEPHEN HARPER WHACK THESE LEFT WING PINKOS GOOD! The census is only required to count Canadians nothing more. Anything more is privacy invasion! GET RID OF THE LONG FORM CENSUS!
@bootscootin99 There are no words for how stupid this comment makes you look.
-wanting provincial/municipal governments and countless other groups to have the info they need to function does not make you a "left wing pinko"
-saying the census is only required to count people doesn't make it true. If you think it's true, then you don't understand what a census is and has been all of its history.
-All of the crazy ranting in the world will not make anonymous data collection a "privacy invasion"
@Eternity Thought Well to be fair I would spare the left wing pinko comment.
There is however is certain assumption that is with merit that census data leads to technocratic society and way form a democratic society.
Hypothetically if there was no long census form, a municipality would have to consider a feasibility study of transit before doing it (they do anyways). Which of course means increase cost. However it has to actually convince the people first that transit is a good idea.
@MeLiveLong I really don't find that argument very convincing. Most civilised countries have been taking detailed censuses of their populations for centuries now, and we haven't seen any technocracies taking over.
Even setting aside municipalities and transit systems, we need census records in order to have an accurate long, historical view of social and demographic changes in the country. As a society, we're gouging out our own eyes because the conservatives want to score political points.
Civilized? Odd use of words, the most tyrannically nations had good census too. Not my attention to say census leads to tyrants but it certainly helps. My counter would be nations have been making census more detail for the reason of the expansion of state and deference to technocrats.
You think society and government are one and the same? To what end does it serve us to understand our “change”, for me counting accidents of biology is pointless.
@MeLiveLong Government isn't the only one that uses them. Academics, economists, and historians all use them too, and they don't write just to government. They write to us, to tell us where we came from and, as best they can, where we might be going. You may not care what's going on sociologically and demographically in Canada, but a lot of us do, and we think it's important to know.
You know as well as I do that suggesting the longform census is a threat to Canadian democracy is silly. Come on.
@EternityThought Well I have less incentive to give others that information too. Academics have less of a right to point the gun of the state at my head.
I recognize there is value in it. I however have a hard time recognizing why I should go to jail for an academic’s thesis.
The long form is not a great threat, but it hardly strengths democracy. It really weakens the culture of democratic behavior. We act as if census data is end and be all of considerations when making decisions.
@MeLiveLong Listen, there are all sorts of organisations working hard to improve our country. Government is one of them -- academics, NGOs, and different social groups are others. A necessary part of dealing with social/economic problems is knowing what they are and how they developed, and the census is the key source. It has been for a long time now, in many democratic states, and nowhere has knowledge of broad trends imperilled democracy. That's just ridiculous anti-government fear-mongering.
@EternityThought There is under lying assumption to your theory however, which is evidently present in all this. That it is government job or ability to fix everything. Academics and business merely freeload on the census.
I suppose I would put it in a very general terms. Increase in poverty statistics lead will almost automatically lead to increase in poverty reduction programs, regardless of the merit. I am not anti-government; I merely seek to limit it.
@MeLiveLong It is not significantly different conceptually from paying taxes. It's a necessary part of sustaining a healthy and effective government, and therefore it's a rightful obligation of citizens. Some people have now taken the stance of small children who selfishly feel they should never have to do anything ever, but those people should not be allowed to cripple the whole society just because they aren't willing to discharge their obligations as Canadians.
@EternityThought Government is not an end of itself and just because its good for the government does not mean its good for the citizen. I think you honestly confuse government with society. Conscription would help make a healthy and effective government and thus rightful for citizens, yet I reject that too.
To what end does that government need to know my religion? To what end does anyone? Measuring accidents of biology. I think the long census just helps lead to top down governance.
@MeLiveLong No one is claiming that government is an end in itself, and no one is claiming government is the only way to do things. Government is simply the most organised and effective instrument we currently have to get things done.
And I don't know what country you're living in, but here in Canada our government is made up of elected representatives. Any citizen can run and any citizen can vote. We are ruled by ourselves and by people of our choosing.
@EternityThought Government certainly has its uses, no question; however it is hardly the best way to get all things done. There is a lot of hubris attached to all of this, thinking that everything effective has to be top down. If we rule ourselves why is there a problem when someone exercises a very basic right, the right to refuse to talk about religion? All the sudden you show up and tell them what to do or else.
NGO's can get their own information, they already freeload too much.
@MeLiveLong If you know of a better way to engage with widespread social and economic issues in a comprehensive and effective way, fill me in, but right now it sounds like you're just beating some sort of naively anti-government anarchist drum. Just because you resent someone telling you that you have an obligation to your fellow citizens doesn't mean that that obligation doesn't exist; it just means that something is wrong with your sense of your duties as a citizen.
@EternityThought My concern is the individual, not the government. Your argument is centered around the benefit of more government, mine is around the sanctity of the individual.
Let demonstrate how unconvincing your argument is. Just because someone tells you have an obligation does not mean you do, and you are obliviously a happy slave. Yea neither of those arguments are convincing.
So let me ask you think we should fine people who refuse to tell use their sexual preference and religion?
@MeLiveLong Why are you asking these questions? Do you seriously not understand?
It is important to know that sort of information broadly (not specifically) so that we can have a sense of what the trends and needs of the Canadian public are.
And it's not about big government versus small government. Stop trying to twist it into that ridiculous American debate -- it's a thought-terminating cliche. It's about having a government the right size and with the right tools for what needs to be done.
@MeLiveLong I'm very sympathetic to libertarian views, but the census is anonymous and the long census form only goes to 20% of the population. It is essential for society because whether there is government on a national or municipal scale we NEED to know what sort of state our population is in. Otherwise we can't really make good decisions. Let me emphasize I'm an advocate of small scale local governance that is TRULY democratic, and the census would still be essential. We are SOCIAL beings.
@MeLiveLong As for your comment about NGOs -- that's frankly offensive. You don't want government helping people. You don't want non-government groups helping people. You don't want anything that puts you under any obligation to improve the state of your fellow citizens, even when it's something as incredibly simple as filling out a form to give people actually trying to do some good the info they need to function effectively. And we're supposed to treat your arguments as having moral weight?
@EternityThought I do work with charities however your typical local ones hardly have a need for the census nor do they typical receive government funding especially federal. Also not all NGO's are human charities many are nothing more then poltical lobbyist, to those is which my scorn is really directed.
My argument only has moral weight if you think the individual is most important division of society. If you are a collectivist in any form then my argument carries little pull.
@MeLiveLong Well, thanks for clarifying that. The self-centred ideology you claim is toxic to the very foundation of Canadian government _and_ society. If you don't think we should be working together to make things better for everyone to any extent at all, then you really have nothing of value to contribute to a discussion of public policy.
Maybe you should try making friends with some of the black bloc anarchists who trashed Toronto this summer. I'm sure they'd share a lot of your opinions.
@EternityThought Well I think we are at the end. I just like you to know you do have a good case, but you express it poorly and belittling me does not help.
I do not think you are stupid, I think you may just be very ideological or partisan or not use to opposing ideas.
Just try to be a little more receptive of other ideas in the future, you do not have to agree, just try to hear others out.
Also do try to answer direct questions; it really helps everybody to understand each other.
@MeLiveLong No, sorry, the problem is not that I am not being receptive or not understanding you. The problem is that your anti-census position is neither practical nor moral. It relies on a paranoid kneejerk reaction against authority and has no sense whatsoever of your obligations to your fellow citizens.
Try to think seriously and clearly about your positions before you embrace them. Be wary of attaching yourself to paranoid ideologies just because everyone else is doing it.
@EternityThought The conservatives have given you back a measure of freedom, by letting you decide whether to fill in the census form or not. Don't be like a canary in a cage and be too scared to fly out of the opened cage door. Fly, little birdie, fly!
@Nomoreidsleft The conservatives could give me back all of my freedom and dissolve the state entirely -- would that make you ridiculous anti-government people happy?
Stop taking stupid positions. Put down the kool-aid and pay attention to reality. Unless you want to go back to the bronze age, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you have obligations to the society in which you live and whose benefits you enjoy.
@EternityThought The Liberals, are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The conservatives have not scrapped the census, but just removed the penalty for those who don't wish to participate. With all the hype more people will actually end up filling in the voluntary form now, and sample size will be bigger. They can use regression analysis to compare pre/post long-form data. Romans had censuses, in the bronze age. Non-participation was dealt with severely. Jesus was born on a census year.
@Nomoreidsleft The reason the Liberals are making an issue about it is because Liberals are listening to statisticians, while the Conservatives are not. Anybody who has slept through anything like an introductory statistics course _knows_ that having survey respondents who are self-selecting does real damage to the reliability of the data.
And the Bronze Age was long before the Romans, who also knew the importance of mandatory censuses.
@EternityThought Surveys, are a random sample of the population. People will choose to respond, and some will not. This why you gather ancillary data, and do regression and correlation analysis to determine any anomalies. As for the bronze age, it's not an exact period, it depends on where you lived. The Romans were at the start of their iron age, but Europe was in their middle bronze age. Plot the distribution, and take the 95th percentile. The point is statisticians can deal with it.
@Nomoreidsleft No, sorry. Romans were neither iron nor bronze -- those are prehistoric categorisations. The Romans are categorised within the historic period of "antiquity". Sleeping through an introductory course on classical history would have taught you that.
And, no, surveys with self-selecting respondents are not "a random sample of the population." They are a sample of those within the population who wish to respond to surveys, which is not the same thing. Ask a statistician.
@EternityThought You're taking too many courses. I work with stats, and do statistical analysis. I asked, and the lazy statistician says, "Boy, I wish the government would force everyone to answer the long form census. Then I won't have to plot the data distribution to eliminate any skewed data. With the proposed changes, I now have to do a regression analysis of the data to see if it's more accurate than the old mandatory long form. When will I have time to take my vacation this year?"
@Nomoreidsleft The only way a regression analysis would work in this instance would be if you did two surveys -- one mandatory and one voluntary. Then you could compare them and estimate what the influence of making it voluntary would be. You can't just do a voluntary survey and then somehow magically find out what the results would be if it had been involuntary, because, without doing an involuntary survey, you have no data to compare against. Come on. These are not difficult concepts.
@EternityThought Man, I must have too much time today. It doesn't sound like you have done any work with stats. Regression is used to determine trends and forecasts. If the same variables are gathered, you can compare previous data with current data, and forecast future data. So past census data can be compared with new census data with no problems. You can even compare the accuracy of forecasts using both data sets, and compare the forecasts to reality. Statisticians live for this stuff!
@Nomoreidsleft I've done enough work with statistics to know that's not a very realistic proposal. The reason we do regular censuses is that things change in ways that can't be accurately predicted by extending trends from past censuses. Using past data to correct present data is not viable because there is no way to know whether discrepancies represent selection bias or actual changes in the population. When you claim there will be "no problems" you're either being dishonest or uninformed.
@EternityThought Not saying to use previous data to correct new data. I'm saying analyse both data sets, and see which is more accurate. You are correct about data changing all the time. Whether the methodology for collecting it changes or not this is always true. My point is that as long as the variables you collect remain the same, you can attempt to quantify the changes due to methodology. There are enough tools in statistics. Data sets routinely get analysed for selection bias.
@Nomoreidsleft How do you propose to evaluate the accuracy of the voluntary 2011 data set when the only way to determine criteria for accuracy or non-accuracy would be an unbiased 2011 census? The only effective and reliable way to distinguish changes introduced by selection bias from those introduced by a change in the population is to eliminate the selection bias -- ie, keep the long-form mandatory.
@EternityThought First thing to do before statistical analysis is to do a distribution plot. Count number of respondents for a particular variable. How many people for each category of occupation, for instance, if your data is dependent on that. Normally, it should be a nice bell curve, Gaussian. If that's the case, then you can say that your analysis will be accurate within a 95% confidence level. If not the confidence level goes down. We will not know until we actually have the 2011 data.
@Nomoreidsleft Why would data determined by occupation produce a bell curve? Don't bell curves only occur in data sets with a tendency to cluster around a median? You might presumably be able to do something like that with income, but how would you tell if, for example, an unexpectedly high median in your bell curve represented a selection bias against lower income people or an actual demographic shift?
@EternityThought Clustering around the median is measured by the standard deviation. It determines the shape of the bell curve. Most anthropological data sets follow bell curves, so I was told. A survey of occupation around Windsor would have auto worker in the center, and standard deviation may be small. But, you miss my point, voluntary participation does not necessarily result in bad data. We will not know until the data is analysed. Maybe we shall see that the Jedi Order is not extinct.
@Nomoreidsleft Voluntary data is less useful because it doesn't represent a truly random selection of the population; it represents a random selection of only the section of the population that feels inclined to fill out forms, which will almost certainly not be representative in a demographic sense of the whole population.
I do not know that anthropological data sets _don't_ follow a bell curve, but I can't think of any reason why they would, or why a biased data set wouldn't do the same.
@EternityThought Search on google for "Adjusting for Estimated Response Rate". Keep the quotes in the search. You will find a small articles on Random Sampling. It should give you a good idea on the tools available for selecting samples, and adjusting for any data skewing. This is assuming that the data will be biased in the first place.
@Nomoreidsleft That guide suggests ways to address a survey with less respondents because of self-selection, not ways to address the bias introduced by self-selection. Only the very last paragraph addresses something similar to the census problem, and their conclusion is "You will need to determine for yourself whether the survey medium might have an effect on your survey results." That is not helpful. A voluntary survey produces less reliable results, and every statistician knows it.
@Nomoreidsleft Bell curves occur on graphs describing relationships between two variables. With data just looking at occupation, there's a single variable: the number of people in given occupations. You could plot it as a bar graph, but the x-axis positions would be arbitrary. Again, you could conceivably use income as a second variable and get a curve, but the premises "less income = less likely to fill out form" and "people have less income generally" would be statistically indistinguishable.
@EternityThought No, in stats, Bell Curve is a distribution graph. The the type of occupation is in the x-axis, and the y-axis is counting the number of respondents in that category. When you compare one variable against another, that a regression analysis. Your premise "less income = less likely to fill out form" is a conjecture, not a premise, since it has not factual basis. It could well be that lower income people have more time too fill out the survey or have more incentive to do so.
@Nomoreidsleft That would not work without income because there is no way to evaluate occupations relative to one another. IE, how do you determine whether plumber should come before or after engineer on the x axis? Their positions would be arbitrary without assigning them a numerical value.
It is a conjecture, but you're not getting the point. It or something like it is something that _could_ be true and could skew the data, and you could not detect it without an involuntary survey.
@Nomoreidsleft Because there will almost certainly be a relationship between certain demographic factors and an increased likelihood not to take the survey, that will create results that give a false impression of the prevalence of those demographic factors. There is no way to know exactly what the relationships will be without an involuntary survey to check against, so there is no way to correct.
You seem to think there is a magical way to detect and adjust for selection bias, but there isn't.
@MeLiveLong And you have to know that conscription argument is ridiculous too. Conscription is an enormous, enormous imposition on citizens. Filling out an anonymous form every decade or so is not. Even comparing the two is ridiculous.
Democratic governments do legitimately conscript citizens when the country as a whole is imperilled, and they rightfully punish the freeloaders who want to enjoy the benefits of a prosperous country without contributing.
StatsCan doesn't care about how many bedrooms are in John Smith home; StatsCan cares about EVERY John Smith and every Jane Doe.
The government is not out to spy on your life, you're just not that important as a single person. They do however have valid reasons for wanting to know what types of homes Canadians are buying and how educated they are.
@OttawaAnon1001 Wrong. The census does ask about number of bedrooms. You really should know what you're talking about if you're going to debate people. Google the term "Canadian Census Questions Since Confederation" and the first link will help solve your ignorance as to questions asked.
@SurecureX I said Stats doesn't care about YOUR bedroom count, it cares about how many every home has. Info that might be useful when planing out sewer systems for new developments maybe.
I wonder why the Census asked about number of flushes .. in the 1940... could it be because most people didn't have indoor plumbing in Canada at that time. Now that times have changed so to has the info that is required to make sure things run smoothly.
@OttawaAnon1001 Firstly, sewage (like your sacred cow public transit) is a municipal matter. If it goes beyond municipalities, it ends up in the hands of provincial governments who already know all of this information! Secondly, information's only useful if it's used. In the case of the census' it isn't. They gather transportation info? So what? Toronto hasn't seen squat in the way of new road construction in 50 years and traffic has tripled since the 70's.
@SurecureX And how does the city know how much transit I need.. I don't recall them ever asking me about it. I do recall them taking my express routes away though.
Again the fact that the information is not used well doesn't lessen the need for that information. Just because mayor X is an idiot this year doesn't mean super Mayor Y ten years from now that's trying to plan out where the best place for the giant indoor ski runs should go wont need that info (FYI ski runs should go next to me)
@OttawaAnon1001 How does a city know how much transit it needs? Same as everything else: supply & demand. Once a system's in place, it's easy to know precisely how much you need to increase as you can track EXACTLY how many more users it adds or takes away. If a city council or provincial government doesn't keep up, all the data in the world won't change the fact they have to catch up until they go far beyond capacity because that's the only place where user systems can function properly.
@OttawaAnon1001 Thirdly, a census won't tell us anything we don't already know. Monitoring actual sewage flow, public transit and traffic increases is a scientific way of determining actions needed to be taken. A random census won't give specific enough information to make those determinations. Most of the info extorted through the penalty risking census is already available to the levels of government that deal with the issues they point to. It's not needed and certainly not by extortion.
@tkmmark The same can be said to any form of gathering information, even random wiretaps. It's entirely irrelevant. And considering the concerns raised in recent years over the security of Statscan data as shown through independent audits, it further demonstrates what Statscan does with the data in the end is further irrelevant if data can be pilfered by outsiders. It's not that I don't trust Statscan's motive. I don't trust their security and don't agree with their extortion for personal data.
Government = monopoly of violence and their very existence is inherently intrusive. So for them to exist they must hold a strong burden of proof - that with their intrusive actions the public is made better off. Unfortunately, this is often not the case. But as for the census, the intrusion is justified because 'most' questions are contained within already defined scope of the state's social programmes and responsibility. Wiretapping.... is scopeless.
I love the Sarah Palin cutout too. Shows you how strong of a point they are making when they have to employ something/somebody that is both a boogeyman and completely irrelevant!
@SurecureX She is relevant because of her status as the lead tea party mouthpiece. The Harper regime is employing the same divisive, caustic politics as the Tea Party by spoon-feeding libertarian rhetoric to blowhards such as yourself. Every thought you claim as your own comes directly from the CPC war room.
The Sarah Palin wasn't suppose to reinforce the argument. Stop focusing on the optics. It was placed to indicate the author's stance on the issue which equates the whole government debate (or lack of debate) to the at-times nonsensical elements of the Tea Party Movement.
@tkmmark I didn't create the optics; the people who made this video did. Sarah Palin has nothing to do with the Canadian census. The Tea Party movement? Once again, nothing to do with us. Thank you so much for further proving this video has at least as much -- if not more -- to do with partisanship and political leanings than the issue at hand. If it was about the issue, they would have stuck to the issue. They didn't. Why? I guess their argument just wasn't strong enough without a boogeyman.
@rohelus1 Yes. Sarah Palin is a member of the Tea Party. I'm not aware of her saying anything against the Census. However, another figurehead of the Tea Party, Republican Michele Bachmann of Minnesota has suggested the Census may be a government conspiracy to create a police state similar to Nazi Germany. Sarah Palin, would be more recognizable to the Canadian audience, which is probably why she was used.
The hell of this is that social problems will not go away just because the gov chooses not to measure them.
All sorts of social services, faith-based and otherwise, from all ends of the spectrum, are protesting this. This is not a 'conservative' policy, it is an ignorance policy, making it easier for the gov to ignore things they don't want to deal with.
But someone will still have to deal with them, just without gov or social service help.
Excellent point MeLiveLong. How often do we hear how the government has no place in the bedrooms of its citizens? And yet now we have people who say that people should be forced at the risk of prosecution for not giving vast details of their private lives? What a joke! The hypocrisy of the critics here is astounding!
@SurecureX There is a vast difference between wanting to know what goes on in someone bedroom and needing to know that 75% of people leave for work at 8am on the public transit system.
@OttawaAnon1001 Explain why it should be mandatory under penalty of a $500 and/or 3 months in jail. I'm fine with providing information about name, address and age. But asking about things like mental health, who the head of the household is, cultural background (of which "Canadian" is NOT an option), number of automobiles, number of BEDROOMS and how often I flush the toilet... every single one of which have been part of the census... that is none of the government's business.
@SurecureX There is no toilet flush question, just like there is no question about fav sexual position... because those questions are of no use for social planing etc. Are you really unable to see the valid reason the government has for knowing that everyone in your area owns 2 cars and never takes public transit?
Do you not understand why knowing that 50% of people in a certain area are all new to the country is important?
@OttawaAnon1001 Sexual position... Glad you're working in reality there. In terms of flush toilets, that in fact was one of the questions a few census' ago. And while you said that they aren't in our bedrooms, as I clearly indicated bedrooms is a part of the long form census. Wrong again.
You still haven't answered the only question of importance: why is the census a MANDATORY thing under penalty of monetary fine and/or prison?
Far be it for the Conservatives to use information to guide their decisions. History will not be kind to this government, unless it eventually destroys any evidence that it ever existed.
If I hung around with people like this, I would be embarrassed. A cencus should simply confirm identity and origin, nothing more. It should not pry into every private corner of a person's life. I am not government property.
Count us out. The govt can figure out what they need to know some other way. Besides we've had enough of your loony left-wing "social planning". You've wreaked our country (countries) with your 40+ years of radical feminism and social planning. We're tired of it and we're tired of paying for it. I want taxes and govt spending cut in half. We'll start by cutting all the left wing loons out of our schools and governments.
Keep your "social planning" to brainwashing your own kids.
I would love to know how the center-left policies wrecked our country. All economic, social, education, living quality indicators and indices have placed Canada within top 10 frequently and above the right-of-us US. Even the ease of doing business and economic freedom and property freedom and privacy index (often published by more right-leaning source) have placed us near the top. Ironically, Canada started dropping in democracy / press freedom indicators since Harper lol
@McJigger Odd these people are censoring my comments. All I wrote was I found it ironic they want others to reveal personal information all the while they conceal their identities.
@assramistan You know what's a bigger waste of money? Creating governmental policy without accurate information about the population. That's one of the things that the census is necessary for.
@assramistan You know I'm quite sympathetic to libertarian perspectives, although I don't particularly define myself that way. My major problem is that this decision was made without consulting anyone. Although neither of us may care for a government existing in it's current form, lets me realists for a second and realize that it exists and makes policy. I would prefer that policy be informed rather than completely blind.
@maiynnai Amazing, a sane reply on the internet :) Good point, hopefully a middle ground can be found, like a voluntary random sample web/phone census or something. Maybe make a framework that can be used for plebiscites, etc.
Got my reminder for the 2011 Census today. Still not getting filled out. I don't have a phone and I'm not going to stand outside the 7-11 calling my government. I have the option to do it online but but I have to give them a phone number? That's like requiring a VCR to play DVDs
No data for you bucky.
Shaitan051 9 months ago
The death of the long form is a disaster for people who plan health care and social services. It's like the the Rhinocerus Party's joke about eliminating poverty by eliminating stats Canada has come true. If you don't document a a problem, you have no moral obligation to fix it.
lfc956 10 months ago
Well McIntoski, I don't know what I've said that would lead anyone to believe that I have no respect for democracy or freedom...but clearly you still don't get it, so I accept your surrender....
UncleSack 1 year ago
McIntoski you, and the fascist losers in this video, are wrong. You can dress it up with witty high-school level 'skits' all you want, but the fact is that you're pro-oppression and pro-government domination, and that is anathema to democracy and freedom. You, and your Alinsky-loving, Obama-sucking ilk need to go straight to hell.
UncleSack 1 year ago
@UncleSack I see no point in responding to you. Your mouth is bigger than your brain, and your delusional characterizations are a poor excuse for arguments. And while you may pretend otherwise, you clearly have no respect for the democratic process or the freedoms of those who do not share your misguided views.
McIntoski 1 year ago
I don't agree with you McIntoski. At all. It's a fabulous idea to give Canadians more freedom from bureaucracy. My only complaint is that the Conservatives never go far enough in clear cutting more public servants, inane regulations and wasteful spending. This is a minor issue blown out of proportion by a desperate left. I think you'd be happier moving to the U.S., it's fast becoming the socialist, oppressive paradise you clearly crave, thanks to that rotten jackass Obama...
UncleSack 1 year ago
@UncleSack Get a grip. It doesn't take a "desperate left" to see that spending millions more taxpayer dollars on less reliable stats is bad policy. A libertarian such as yourself should see this, if nothing else.
McIntoski 1 year ago
McIntoski...did you go to U of T? UOttawa? Queens? I'm trying to figure out what level of "slow" you are before my next response...
UncleSack 1 year ago
Hey McIntoski, this is Canada. We have nothing but dumb governments spending our money carelessly. I don't want government threatening me with jail over the census, these people are idiots, and Trudeau isn't dead enough for me. Satisfied?
UncleSack 1 year ago
@UncleSack Well you must be a fan of the present government, it's spending more of your money (by sending the long form to more people), to get less reliable date (by making it voluntary). If you or anyone else is actually bothered by the jail "threat", which was never exercised and was until recently a non-issue, then the government could simply replace it with a small fine.
McIntoski 1 year ago
So let me get this straight...you WANT the government to know minute detail about your life, and are willing to be jailed by not providing it? I hate you all...
UncleSack 1 year ago
@UncleSack - If the "minute details" are critical for providing government services efficiently, then absolutely. Do you prefer all three levels of government make decisions based on unreliable data? You prefer a dumb government to a smart one?
McIntoski 1 year ago
@McIntoski Would you call what we presently have an efficient delivery of services? That the governments of the past 40 years have made intelligent decisions? That bureaucrats and politicians actually heed the data recorded through the census instead of making their own empire-building/pork-barrelling/vote-buying decisions for crass political/administrative purposes? Do you actually believe that the census matters one jot to Parliament and the civil service?
sweatysock9 1 year ago
@sweatysock9 Yes, I think it does matter. Not just to bureaucrats, but to the hundreds of other organizations, groups, and small businesses that rely on census data.
Also, I don't follow your reasoning. You allege that governments haven't always used the tools available to them to make the best decisions... so out of spite you would deny these tools to the entire civil service?
McIntoski 1 year ago
@McIntoski Then I have this bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
Do you honestly think that the civil service uses the data of the census for the benefit of Canadians, or do you think that they use it for their own empire-building exercises? Or is yet another set of government programs with yet another layer of managerial non-jobs in the best interests of Canadians? As the saying goes; "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureaucracy".
sweatysock9 1 year ago
@sweatysock9 Funny quote. But regardless of your personal cynicism towards the public service, I think we can agree that the Conservative plan for the long form census is a poor example of "trimming the fat", if that was ever the intent. Killing statistics is liposuction to the brain.
McIntoski 1 year ago
None of you have even had sexual relations at all in your lives, isn't that right. Statistics: a career for dull, virginal bed-wetters like the cretins who made this appallingly bad video.
sweatysock9 1 year ago
Come out in support of the census Aug 5, Queen's Park, Toronto, 7pm.
torontoflygirl 1 year ago
WTF Sarah Palin??
ktin14 1 year ago
Is it possible that Stephen Harper wants to lessen the accuracy of census data so that he can distribute money in a way that favors Conservative ridings?
snodgrass9432 1 year ago
@snodgrass9432 Possible, but unlikely because getting rid of the long-form census is kind of a Wile E. Coyote-style, roundabout way of achieving that result. If the Torries wanted to change the way money is distributed to ridings, they could just do that.
cuppajoe99 1 year ago
They should call themselves the Government Laphounds... if they're so anxious to please the authorities and business and big guv, let them do it on their own. Trouble is, in this so-called democracy, there's really no free choice in a system that caters to personal convenience and self-aggrandizement. You go with the herd or else. People forget that dictatorships aren't built in a day, they're built one brick at a time, over time, just like any prison, eroding one freedom after another.
SKS4000 1 year ago
I don't like being forced to give out my personal information. So if you don't have a problem with giving out your information, go for it.
I think these folks just don't like Tories in power.
ScooterMcBean 1 year ago
What a bunch of morons. If they wanted to be counted in just fill in the census forms when they come, no one is stopping them. What they are essentially singing for is, "Please count me in, and put me in jail or fine me if I don't comply with the government's data gathering efforts." I say, "Give us more freedom instead." Don't be sheep and listen to Liberal/CBC propaganda.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
Bravo! G&M says Flaherty, Clement lobbied economist?! Harper NOT cut mandatory census, opposed decision. Yet Clement now shilling "Harper's decree"! Political expediency stats Minister putting own ... Party before Canadian public's interest?! Its linchpin role shapes, funds crucial PROGRESSIVE public policy, programs, services for ALL Canadians. Harper's autocratic mien, cynical politics gut StatsCan 2011 census results “in advance”, trump democracy, good govt. Surprised, no. Shameful, yes!
LCMKCS 1 year ago
count me out,set me free.
sarahnofear 1 year ago
Lets see Tony Clement thinks Census Data is a good idea
This could lead to letting people LIE ,or get groups together to
SKEW to set up a special agenda that is Thought or agenda planting
into the Census != lots of ways to taint the census?
II that why Tony wants to remove the fine for a skewed Census
ve3ded 1 year ago
I'd love to see these right-wing conspiracy genius' (it's Harper and Palin!) address the fact that many European countries like those great right-wing bastions Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway have abandoned the census altogether, Britain is looking to scrap it and Germans are outraged at the prospect of its government trying to collecting census data on 10% of it's population.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX The Scandinavian countries and Netherlands do not need census information collected in the way StatsCan does. Instead they have compulsory registration of all people (you must register with municipal authorities or police within five days of changing residence in the Netherlands for example) and a single universal identifier that links to all gov't files. It generates great data.
coryherrera 1 year ago
@coryherrera Exactly. Thank you for backing up my point that the kind of long-form census data that is being extorted from Canadians is not necessary and that there are better ways of obtaining the only necessary information. You would figure that a technologically and economically advanced country like Canada would be able to stand toe to toe with these countries.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@coryherrera
Oh yes, I remember having to live in Europe and being forced to register with the police right away.... funny you do not find this an intrusion of absolute freedom. And how is the data being generated? from the government files?
tkmmark 1 year ago
@tkmmark
I would support some sort of alternative if it can generate the same quality of data. But Harper has no such proposal but to add a few extra questions on the short-form census?
tkmmark 1 year ago
@SurecureX
The European census have privacy concerns of their own. Not to mention forced registration in my opinion is a greater intrusion to the absolute freedom that the Libertarian right demands.
tkmmark 1 year ago
Save the census longform!
raynekoest 1 year ago
Look at that. Peaceful, creative protest. A nice change from the G20 weekend.
jeffersonguzman 1 year ago
I fucking hate Harper and his Conservative cronies for doing this. Only one out of 10 has to fill out the long census. I don''t think that's too much to ask. And, I can't wait until the next Federal election when he is tossed out on his ass. The NDP and Liberals should bring down the govt for this. I think it's that important. Important enough for the head of StatsCan to resign. I guess they think they didn't piss us off enough with the G8 and G20 summits. They're seeing how far they can go.
ApocalypsePlough 1 year ago
Lucky luke I challenge you to do better!!!
The more the merrier!!
keleraya 1 year ago
The governments will make poor choices and run programs badly no matter what. As voters and citizens the only things we can do is try and vote the idiots out of office as often as possible and make sure the competent gov types get accurate information about what is needed. Name, marital status, language does nothing to help determine if a community needs more special ed programs, fewer permits given to make expensive homes, or more funding to Universities. That's what the long form is for.
OttawaAnon1001 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 Once again... Special Ed: provincial matter. Home permits: municipal matter. University funding: provincial matter. And we already have methods of precise scientific measurement to determine all of these.
SurecureX 1 year ago
Why is someone waving around a Sarah Palin cutout in the background?
MichaelForian 1 year ago
Cesus Canada get out of my life and stop prying in areas where you dont belong. STEPHEN HARPER WHACK THESE LEFT WING PINKOS GOOD! The census is only required to count Canadians nothing more. Anything more is privacy invasion! GET RID OF THE LONG FORM CENSUS!
bootscootin99 1 year ago
@bootscootin99 There are no words for how stupid this comment makes you look.
-wanting provincial/municipal governments and countless other groups to have the info they need to function does not make you a "left wing pinko"
-saying the census is only required to count people doesn't make it true. If you think it's true, then you don't understand what a census is and has been all of its history.
-All of the crazy ranting in the world will not make anonymous data collection a "privacy invasion"
EternityThought 1 year ago
@Eternity Thought Well to be fair I would spare the left wing pinko comment.
There is however is certain assumption that is with merit that census data leads to technocratic society and way form a democratic society.
Hypothetically if there was no long census form, a municipality would have to consider a feasibility study of transit before doing it (they do anyways). Which of course means increase cost. However it has to actually convince the people first that transit is a good idea.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong I really don't find that argument very convincing. Most civilised countries have been taking detailed censuses of their populations for centuries now, and we haven't seen any technocracies taking over.
Even setting aside municipalities and transit systems, we need census records in order to have an accurate long, historical view of social and demographic changes in the country. As a society, we're gouging out our own eyes because the conservatives want to score political points.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought
Civilized? Odd use of words, the most tyrannically nations had good census too. Not my attention to say census leads to tyrants but it certainly helps. My counter would be nations have been making census more detail for the reason of the expansion of state and deference to technocrats.
You think society and government are one and the same? To what end does it serve us to understand our “change”, for me counting accidents of biology is pointless.
I may use slang to safe space.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong Government isn't the only one that uses them. Academics, economists, and historians all use them too, and they don't write just to government. They write to us, to tell us where we came from and, as best they can, where we might be going. You may not care what's going on sociologically and demographically in Canada, but a lot of us do, and we think it's important to know.
You know as well as I do that suggesting the longform census is a threat to Canadian democracy is silly. Come on.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Well I have less incentive to give others that information too. Academics have less of a right to point the gun of the state at my head.
I recognize there is value in it. I however have a hard time recognizing why I should go to jail for an academic’s thesis.
The long form is not a great threat, but it hardly strengths democracy. It really weakens the culture of democratic behavior. We act as if census data is end and be all of considerations when making decisions.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong Listen, there are all sorts of organisations working hard to improve our country. Government is one of them -- academics, NGOs, and different social groups are others. A necessary part of dealing with social/economic problems is knowing what they are and how they developed, and the census is the key source. It has been for a long time now, in many democratic states, and nowhere has knowledge of broad trends imperilled democracy. That's just ridiculous anti-government fear-mongering.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought There is under lying assumption to your theory however, which is evidently present in all this. That it is government job or ability to fix everything. Academics and business merely freeload on the census.
I suppose I would put it in a very general terms. Increase in poverty statistics lead will almost automatically lead to increase in poverty reduction programs, regardless of the merit. I am not anti-government; I merely seek to limit it.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong It is not significantly different conceptually from paying taxes. It's a necessary part of sustaining a healthy and effective government, and therefore it's a rightful obligation of citizens. Some people have now taken the stance of small children who selfishly feel they should never have to do anything ever, but those people should not be allowed to cripple the whole society just because they aren't willing to discharge their obligations as Canadians.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Government is not an end of itself and just because its good for the government does not mean its good for the citizen. I think you honestly confuse government with society. Conscription would help make a healthy and effective government and thus rightful for citizens, yet I reject that too.
To what end does that government need to know my religion? To what end does anyone? Measuring accidents of biology. I think the long census just helps lead to top down governance.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong No one is claiming that government is an end in itself, and no one is claiming government is the only way to do things. Government is simply the most organised and effective instrument we currently have to get things done.
And I don't know what country you're living in, but here in Canada our government is made up of elected representatives. Any citizen can run and any citizen can vote. We are ruled by ourselves and by people of our choosing.
And lots of NGOs use the census too.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Government certainly has its uses, no question; however it is hardly the best way to get all things done. There is a lot of hubris attached to all of this, thinking that everything effective has to be top down. If we rule ourselves why is there a problem when someone exercises a very basic right, the right to refuse to talk about religion? All the sudden you show up and tell them what to do or else.
NGO's can get their own information, they already freeload too much.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong If you know of a better way to engage with widespread social and economic issues in a comprehensive and effective way, fill me in, but right now it sounds like you're just beating some sort of naively anti-government anarchist drum. Just because you resent someone telling you that you have an obligation to your fellow citizens doesn't mean that that obligation doesn't exist; it just means that something is wrong with your sense of your duties as a citizen.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought My concern is the individual, not the government. Your argument is centered around the benefit of more government, mine is around the sanctity of the individual.
Let demonstrate how unconvincing your argument is. Just because someone tells you have an obligation does not mean you do, and you are obliviously a happy slave. Yea neither of those arguments are convincing.
So let me ask you think we should fine people who refuse to tell use their sexual preference and religion?
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong Why are you asking these questions? Do you seriously not understand?
It is important to know that sort of information broadly (not specifically) so that we can have a sense of what the trends and needs of the Canadian public are.
And it's not about big government versus small government. Stop trying to twist it into that ridiculous American debate -- it's a thought-terminating cliche. It's about having a government the right size and with the right tools for what needs to be done.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong I'm very sympathetic to libertarian views, but the census is anonymous and the long census form only goes to 20% of the population. It is essential for society because whether there is government on a national or municipal scale we NEED to know what sort of state our population is in. Otherwise we can't really make good decisions. Let me emphasize I'm an advocate of small scale local governance that is TRULY democratic, and the census would still be essential. We are SOCIAL beings.
maiynnai 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong As for your comment about NGOs -- that's frankly offensive. You don't want government helping people. You don't want non-government groups helping people. You don't want anything that puts you under any obligation to improve the state of your fellow citizens, even when it's something as incredibly simple as filling out a form to give people actually trying to do some good the info they need to function effectively. And we're supposed to treat your arguments as having moral weight?
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought I do work with charities however your typical local ones hardly have a need for the census nor do they typical receive government funding especially federal. Also not all NGO's are human charities many are nothing more then poltical lobbyist, to those is which my scorn is really directed.
My argument only has moral weight if you think the individual is most important division of society. If you are a collectivist in any form then my argument carries little pull.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong Well, thanks for clarifying that. The self-centred ideology you claim is toxic to the very foundation of Canadian government _and_ society. If you don't think we should be working together to make things better for everyone to any extent at all, then you really have nothing of value to contribute to a discussion of public policy.
Maybe you should try making friends with some of the black bloc anarchists who trashed Toronto this summer. I'm sure they'd share a lot of your opinions.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Well I think we are at the end. I just like you to know you do have a good case, but you express it poorly and belittling me does not help.
I do not think you are stupid, I think you may just be very ideological or partisan or not use to opposing ideas.
Just try to be a little more receptive of other ideas in the future, you do not have to agree, just try to hear others out.
Also do try to answer direct questions; it really helps everybody to understand each other.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong No, sorry, the problem is not that I am not being receptive or not understanding you. The problem is that your anti-census position is neither practical nor moral. It relies on a paranoid kneejerk reaction against authority and has no sense whatsoever of your obligations to your fellow citizens.
Try to think seriously and clearly about your positions before you embrace them. Be wary of attaching yourself to paranoid ideologies just because everyone else is doing it.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought The conservatives have given you back a measure of freedom, by letting you decide whether to fill in the census form or not. Don't be like a canary in a cage and be too scared to fly out of the opened cage door. Fly, little birdie, fly!
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft The conservatives could give me back all of my freedom and dissolve the state entirely -- would that make you ridiculous anti-government people happy?
Stop taking stupid positions. Put down the kool-aid and pay attention to reality. Unless you want to go back to the bronze age, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you have obligations to the society in which you live and whose benefits you enjoy.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought The Liberals, are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The conservatives have not scrapped the census, but just removed the penalty for those who don't wish to participate. With all the hype more people will actually end up filling in the voluntary form now, and sample size will be bigger. They can use regression analysis to compare pre/post long-form data. Romans had censuses, in the bronze age. Non-participation was dealt with severely. Jesus was born on a census year.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft The reason the Liberals are making an issue about it is because Liberals are listening to statisticians, while the Conservatives are not. Anybody who has slept through anything like an introductory statistics course _knows_ that having survey respondents who are self-selecting does real damage to the reliability of the data.
And the Bronze Age was long before the Romans, who also knew the importance of mandatory censuses.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Surveys, are a random sample of the population. People will choose to respond, and some will not. This why you gather ancillary data, and do regression and correlation analysis to determine any anomalies. As for the bronze age, it's not an exact period, it depends on where you lived. The Romans were at the start of their iron age, but Europe was in their middle bronze age. Plot the distribution, and take the 95th percentile. The point is statisticians can deal with it.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft No, sorry. Romans were neither iron nor bronze -- those are prehistoric categorisations. The Romans are categorised within the historic period of "antiquity". Sleeping through an introductory course on classical history would have taught you that.
And, no, surveys with self-selecting respondents are not "a random sample of the population." They are a sample of those within the population who wish to respond to surveys, which is not the same thing. Ask a statistician.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought You're taking too many courses. I work with stats, and do statistical analysis. I asked, and the lazy statistician says, "Boy, I wish the government would force everyone to answer the long form census. Then I won't have to plot the data distribution to eliminate any skewed data. With the proposed changes, I now have to do a regression analysis of the data to see if it's more accurate than the old mandatory long form. When will I have time to take my vacation this year?"
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft The only way a regression analysis would work in this instance would be if you did two surveys -- one mandatory and one voluntary. Then you could compare them and estimate what the influence of making it voluntary would be. You can't just do a voluntary survey and then somehow magically find out what the results would be if it had been involuntary, because, without doing an involuntary survey, you have no data to compare against. Come on. These are not difficult concepts.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Man, I must have too much time today. It doesn't sound like you have done any work with stats. Regression is used to determine trends and forecasts. If the same variables are gathered, you can compare previous data with current data, and forecast future data. So past census data can be compared with new census data with no problems. You can even compare the accuracy of forecasts using both data sets, and compare the forecasts to reality. Statisticians live for this stuff!
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft I've done enough work with statistics to know that's not a very realistic proposal. The reason we do regular censuses is that things change in ways that can't be accurately predicted by extending trends from past censuses. Using past data to correct present data is not viable because there is no way to know whether discrepancies represent selection bias or actual changes in the population. When you claim there will be "no problems" you're either being dishonest or uninformed.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Not saying to use previous data to correct new data. I'm saying analyse both data sets, and see which is more accurate. You are correct about data changing all the time. Whether the methodology for collecting it changes or not this is always true. My point is that as long as the variables you collect remain the same, you can attempt to quantify the changes due to methodology. There are enough tools in statistics. Data sets routinely get analysed for selection bias.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft How do you propose to evaluate the accuracy of the voluntary 2011 data set when the only way to determine criteria for accuracy or non-accuracy would be an unbiased 2011 census? The only effective and reliable way to distinguish changes introduced by selection bias from those introduced by a change in the population is to eliminate the selection bias -- ie, keep the long-form mandatory.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought First thing to do before statistical analysis is to do a distribution plot. Count number of respondents for a particular variable. How many people for each category of occupation, for instance, if your data is dependent on that. Normally, it should be a nice bell curve, Gaussian. If that's the case, then you can say that your analysis will be accurate within a 95% confidence level. If not the confidence level goes down. We will not know until we actually have the 2011 data.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft Why would data determined by occupation produce a bell curve? Don't bell curves only occur in data sets with a tendency to cluster around a median? You might presumably be able to do something like that with income, but how would you tell if, for example, an unexpectedly high median in your bell curve represented a selection bias against lower income people or an actual demographic shift?
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Clustering around the median is measured by the standard deviation. It determines the shape of the bell curve. Most anthropological data sets follow bell curves, so I was told. A survey of occupation around Windsor would have auto worker in the center, and standard deviation may be small. But, you miss my point, voluntary participation does not necessarily result in bad data. We will not know until the data is analysed. Maybe we shall see that the Jedi Order is not extinct.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft Voluntary data is less useful because it doesn't represent a truly random selection of the population; it represents a random selection of only the section of the population that feels inclined to fill out forms, which will almost certainly not be representative in a demographic sense of the whole population.
I do not know that anthropological data sets _don't_ follow a bell curve, but I can't think of any reason why they would, or why a biased data set wouldn't do the same.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought Search on google for "Adjusting for Estimated Response Rate". Keep the quotes in the search. You will find a small articles on Random Sampling. It should give you a good idea on the tools available for selecting samples, and adjusting for any data skewing. This is assuming that the data will be biased in the first place.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft That guide suggests ways to address a survey with less respondents because of self-selection, not ways to address the bias introduced by self-selection. Only the very last paragraph addresses something similar to the census problem, and their conclusion is "You will need to determine for yourself whether the survey medium might have an effect on your survey results." That is not helpful. A voluntary survey produces less reliable results, and every statistician knows it.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft Bell curves occur on graphs describing relationships between two variables. With data just looking at occupation, there's a single variable: the number of people in given occupations. You could plot it as a bar graph, but the x-axis positions would be arbitrary. Again, you could conceivably use income as a second variable and get a curve, but the premises "less income = less likely to fill out form" and "people have less income generally" would be statistically indistinguishable.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought No, in stats, Bell Curve is a distribution graph. The the type of occupation is in the x-axis, and the y-axis is counting the number of respondents in that category. When you compare one variable against another, that a regression analysis. Your premise "less income = less likely to fill out form" is a conjecture, not a premise, since it has not factual basis. It could well be that lower income people have more time too fill out the survey or have more incentive to do so.
Nomoreidsleft 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft That would not work without income because there is no way to evaluate occupations relative to one another. IE, how do you determine whether plumber should come before or after engineer on the x axis? Their positions would be arbitrary without assigning them a numerical value.
It is a conjecture, but you're not getting the point. It or something like it is something that _could_ be true and could skew the data, and you could not detect it without an involuntary survey.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@Nomoreidsleft Because there will almost certainly be a relationship between certain demographic factors and an increased likelihood not to take the survey, that will create results that give a false impression of the prevalence of those demographic factors. There is no way to know exactly what the relationships will be without an involuntary survey to check against, so there is no way to correct.
You seem to think there is a magical way to detect and adjust for selection bias, but there isn't.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong And you have to know that conscription argument is ridiculous too. Conscription is an enormous, enormous imposition on citizens. Filling out an anonymous form every decade or so is not. Even comparing the two is ridiculous.
Democratic governments do legitimately conscript citizens when the country as a whole is imperilled, and they rightfully punish the freeloaders who want to enjoy the benefits of a prosperous country without contributing.
EternityThought 1 year ago
StatsCan doesn't care about how many bedrooms are in John Smith home; StatsCan cares about EVERY John Smith and every Jane Doe.
The government is not out to spy on your life, you're just not that important as a single person. They do however have valid reasons for wanting to know what types of homes Canadians are buying and how educated they are.
OttawaAnon1001 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 Wrong. The census does ask about number of bedrooms. You really should know what you're talking about if you're going to debate people. Google the term "Canadian Census Questions Since Confederation" and the first link will help solve your ignorance as to questions asked.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX I said Stats doesn't care about YOUR bedroom count, it cares about how many every home has. Info that might be useful when planing out sewer systems for new developments maybe.
I wonder why the Census asked about number of flushes .. in the 1940... could it be because most people didn't have indoor plumbing in Canada at that time. Now that times have changed so to has the info that is required to make sure things run smoothly.
OttawaAnon1001 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 Firstly, sewage (like your sacred cow public transit) is a municipal matter. If it goes beyond municipalities, it ends up in the hands of provincial governments who already know all of this information! Secondly, information's only useful if it's used. In the case of the census' it isn't. They gather transportation info? So what? Toronto hasn't seen squat in the way of new road construction in 50 years and traffic has tripled since the 70's.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX And how does the city know how much transit I need.. I don't recall them ever asking me about it. I do recall them taking my express routes away though.
Again the fact that the information is not used well doesn't lessen the need for that information. Just because mayor X is an idiot this year doesn't mean super Mayor Y ten years from now that's trying to plan out where the best place for the giant indoor ski runs should go wont need that info (FYI ski runs should go next to me)
OttawaAnon1001 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 How does a city know how much transit it needs? Same as everything else: supply & demand. Once a system's in place, it's easy to know precisely how much you need to increase as you can track EXACTLY how many more users it adds or takes away. If a city council or provincial government doesn't keep up, all the data in the world won't change the fact they have to catch up until they go far beyond capacity because that's the only place where user systems can function properly.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 Thirdly, a census won't tell us anything we don't already know. Monitoring actual sewage flow, public transit and traffic increases is a scientific way of determining actions needed to be taken. A random census won't give specific enough information to make those determinations. Most of the info extorted through the penalty risking census is already available to the levels of government that deal with the issues they point to. It's not needed and certainly not by extortion.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX
the OttawaGuy was saying StatCan do no fixate on one person's data, but instead combine the data with every Canadian to form correlations and such.
tkmmark 1 year ago
@tkmmark The same can be said to any form of gathering information, even random wiretaps. It's entirely irrelevant. And considering the concerns raised in recent years over the security of Statscan data as shown through independent audits, it further demonstrates what Statscan does with the data in the end is further irrelevant if data can be pilfered by outsiders. It's not that I don't trust Statscan's motive. I don't trust their security and don't agree with their extortion for personal data.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX
Government = monopoly of violence and their very existence is inherently intrusive. So for them to exist they must hold a strong burden of proof - that with their intrusive actions the public is made better off. Unfortunately, this is often not the case. But as for the census, the intrusion is justified because 'most' questions are contained within already defined scope of the state's social programmes and responsibility. Wiretapping.... is scopeless.
tkmmark 1 year ago
you guys have waaaaaay to much time on your hands....
it's summer time, go party.
habby06 1 year ago
I love the Sarah Palin cutout too. Shows you how strong of a point they are making when they have to employ something/somebody that is both a boogeyman and completely irrelevant!
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX She is relevant because of her status as the lead tea party mouthpiece. The Harper regime is employing the same divisive, caustic politics as the Tea Party by spoon-feeding libertarian rhetoric to blowhards such as yourself. Every thought you claim as your own comes directly from the CPC war room.
rohelus1 1 year ago
@rohelus1 Keep telling yourself that. You still haven't explained how Sarah Palin relates to the Canadian Census in one single iota. Not one.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX
The Sarah Palin wasn't suppose to reinforce the argument. Stop focusing on the optics. It was placed to indicate the author's stance on the issue which equates the whole government debate (or lack of debate) to the at-times nonsensical elements of the Tea Party Movement.
tkmmark 1 year ago
@tkmmark I didn't create the optics; the people who made this video did. Sarah Palin has nothing to do with the Canadian census. The Tea Party movement? Once again, nothing to do with us. Thank you so much for further proving this video has at least as much -- if not more -- to do with partisanship and political leanings than the issue at hand. If it was about the issue, they would have stuck to the issue. They didn't. Why? I guess their argument just wasn't strong enough without a boogeyman.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@rohelus1 Yes. Sarah Palin is a member of the Tea Party. I'm not aware of her saying anything against the Census. However, another figurehead of the Tea Party, Republican Michele Bachmann of Minnesota has suggested the Census may be a government conspiracy to create a police state similar to Nazi Germany. Sarah Palin, would be more recognizable to the Canadian audience, which is probably why she was used.
dexterxyz 1 year ago
The hell of this is that social problems will not go away just because the gov chooses not to measure them.
All sorts of social services, faith-based and otherwise, from all ends of the spectrum, are protesting this. This is not a 'conservative' policy, it is an ignorance policy, making it easier for the gov to ignore things they don't want to deal with.
But someone will still have to deal with them, just without gov or social service help.
FingRingers 1 year ago
Excellent point MeLiveLong. How often do we hear how the government has no place in the bedrooms of its citizens? And yet now we have people who say that people should be forced at the risk of prosecution for not giving vast details of their private lives? What a joke! The hypocrisy of the critics here is astounding!
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX There is a vast difference between wanting to know what goes on in someone bedroom and needing to know that 75% of people leave for work at 8am on the public transit system.
OttawaAnon1001 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 Explain why it should be mandatory under penalty of a $500 and/or 3 months in jail. I'm fine with providing information about name, address and age. But asking about things like mental health, who the head of the household is, cultural background (of which "Canadian" is NOT an option), number of automobiles, number of BEDROOMS and how often I flush the toilet... every single one of which have been part of the census... that is none of the government's business.
SurecureX 1 year ago
@SurecureX There is no toilet flush question, just like there is no question about fav sexual position... because those questions are of no use for social planing etc. Are you really unable to see the valid reason the government has for knowing that everyone in your area owns 2 cars and never takes public transit?
Do you not understand why knowing that 50% of people in a certain area are all new to the country is important?
OttawaAnon1001 1 year ago
@OttawaAnon1001 Sexual position... Glad you're working in reality there. In terms of flush toilets, that in fact was one of the questions a few census' ago. And while you said that they aren't in our bedrooms, as I clearly indicated bedrooms is a part of the long form census. Wrong again.
You still haven't answered the only question of importance: why is the census a MANDATORY thing under penalty of monetary fine and/or prison?
SurecureX 1 year ago
Far be it for the Conservatives to use information to guide their decisions. History will not be kind to this government, unless it eventually destroys any evidence that it ever existed.
kenngc 1 year ago
If I hung around with people like this, I would be embarrassed. A cencus should simply confirm identity and origin, nothing more. It should not pry into every private corner of a person's life. I am not government property.
mikespulligan 1 year ago
it's official...the conservatives have lost their senses
pathoger 1 year ago
An NDP activist is singing out against the Conservatives scrapping the intrusive, criminally prosecutable if not completed long census.
In related breaking news stories, the sun came out this morning.
SurecureX 1 year ago
Count us out. The govt can figure out what they need to know some other way. Besides we've had enough of your loony left-wing "social planning". You've wreaked our country (countries) with your 40+ years of radical feminism and social planning. We're tired of it and we're tired of paying for it. I want taxes and govt spending cut in half. We'll start by cutting all the left wing loons out of our schools and governments.
Keep your "social planning" to brainwashing your own kids.
TheGibbonsFamily 1 year ago
@TheGibbonsFamily , wow, nuts much?
rg0057 1 year ago
@TheGibbonsFamily
I would love to know how the center-left policies wrecked our country. All economic, social, education, living quality indicators and indices have placed Canada within top 10 frequently and above the right-of-us US. Even the ease of doing business and economic freedom and property freedom and privacy index (often published by more right-leaning source) have placed us near the top. Ironically, Canada started dropping in democracy / press freedom indicators since Harper lol
tkmmark 1 year ago
@MeLiveLong hahaha best part
McJigger 1 year ago
@McJigger Odd these people are censoring my comments. All I wrote was I found it ironic they want others to reveal personal information all the while they conceal their identities.
MeLiveLong 1 year ago
The long form census is a waste of money. Only a basic voter count is needed. Count me out.
assramistan 1 year ago
@assramistan You know what's a bigger waste of money? Creating governmental policy without accurate information about the population. That's one of the things that the census is necessary for.
maiynnai 1 year ago
@maiynnai You assume I want the government making social policy. I would rather run my own life and spend my money my way, thanks very much.
assramistan 1 year ago
@assramistan You know I'm quite sympathetic to libertarian perspectives, although I don't particularly define myself that way. My major problem is that this decision was made without consulting anyone. Although neither of us may care for a government existing in it's current form, lets me realists for a second and realize that it exists and makes policy. I would prefer that policy be informed rather than completely blind.
maiynnai 1 year ago
@maiynnai Amazing, a sane reply on the internet :) Good point, hopefully a middle ground can be found, like a voluntary random sample web/phone census or something. Maybe make a framework that can be used for plebiscites, etc.
assramistan 1 year ago
I agree! Mr. Harper should stop using this as a political tool to get votes and keep it for the good of the country!
sprtn007 1 year ago
I agree. Taking out the long form is rather silly.
BuncyTheFrog 1 year ago
I don't think most people realize just how important the long form data is.
Hopefully your excellent video will change that.
MilaMoose1187 1 year ago
Is the pixelated guy Douglas Coupland?
groundhog593 1 year ago
Wonderful!! Thanks!!
SaniyaCanada 1 year ago
Thank you very much - nicely done and well-written.
Special thanks to the pixelated one - is that the real Sarah Palin or is it animatronics? A rose by any other name, you betcha!
rollymartin 1 year ago