Cylinder Bore Honing - Engine Building Video - Hone Piston Wall

[RacingHeadService]

This blocks cylinder walls will distort .0015" to .002" towards the top of the bores when a Torque Plate is installed... simulating the cylinder heads being torqued on the block. Why bother doing the job if its not done right? I mean if you're going to make a video for YouTube, at least show the viewers the correct method for the best results.

[ghettoflyer]

Why is the technician not using a bore plate on the deck to stabilize the bores well machining? I thought that was common practice since the 60's or 70's?

[CrikeyMang]

@ghettoflyer unfortunately not every machinist does this these days. But any good one will recommend it. OEs dont even do it.

[iLOVENATURE2011]

nice video...its good to know how the engines of our vehicles are fabricated... =)

[techdavey1000]

Has anyone considered what the block is made of? If its the cheapest metal that will suffice you will be doing this a lot. In the good old days in England before everything became throw-away, decent blocks were made from special metal. I am thinking of the old Triumph 2 litre straight 6 blocks. These had the word "Chromalloy" cast into the block and the engines were renowned for outlasting the car. The worst makes used to need reboring every 40,000 miles.

[madisonelectronic]

I have overhauled small engines for years for friends (about 50) and my machine shop always wanted the piston (new or old) that was going in the block. I was impressed cause most small engines had generic tolerances. The tool and die owner quit to spend his millions. Great for him but anyone I talk to now does not want the new piston even on an over of 20 or 30 thsds on usually a really old engine. (like an old Clinton) Are these shops getting lazy or just don't care?

[Serostern]

I have a Honda 2stroke scooter with a completely smooth cylinder (and no piston). Should I get a new cylinder as I am getting a new piston?

[shadow0imposter]

@Serostern depends if ur using an oem piston or if ur gettin an oversized piston

[Serostern]

@shadow0imposter The scooter already goes twice as fast than is legal, so I'll stick to the 50cc.

[morphine30roxy]

What would a 30 over bore be written down like? .30 or .030? Cause 1.000 is one inch right? And a half of an inch is .500? Im trying to get these thousands down right haha.

[charlietow]

@morphine30roxy .030... say you have a 4.25" bore and you wanna punch it 60 out you now have a 4.31" bore... oh and it's thousandths, thousands is before the decimal. so in the about 4.31 the 4 is ones, the 3 is tenths, the 1 is hundredths. but when talking about boring engines, most people refer to the punch in thousandths, like, punch it .030 (30 thou) instead of saying punch it .03 (3 hundredths)

[Liamautomechanic]

good video

[omid11]

awesome!

[rspure100]

I have a 102mm piston with just piston( no rings) in cylinder flush with head.

With feeler gauge middle of skirt from bottom of sleeve I get a tight .007mm or .178

edge of skirt is a loose .007mm or .178.

cylinder has just a few very very small lines with no finger nail edges. almost perfect.

Should I just brake glass with those specs? ty

[TerminatorSony]

The 2nd guy needs Protective gloves and Safety glasses.

[GUYANESEGT]

*drooling* car porn

[72fordmaverick]

@GUYANESEGT just going to say somthing along those lines



[ericg83z]

i have and 355 with about 40kms on it can i just hone the bores and reuse the pistons and rings?

[BoxWrench]

@ericg83z this clip is only a sample from the full length DVD where we advise you to pull apart the engine first and then do a visual and measurement inspection.

You'll need to see the condition of the piston skirts and the cylinder bore walls. Then you'll need to do the measurement (or have the machine shop do it for you) with a dial-bore gauge and micrometer on the pistons. It the pistons measure out ok, and the cylinder walls are within spec, you may be able to get away with just a hone...

[dukviper90]

@BoxWrench How much would a shop usually charge to hone or set up a block for a rebuild?

[dukviper90]

@BoxWrench How much would a shop usually charge to hone or set up a block for a rebuild? Definitely worried about doing that part myself.

[EndofDays213]

This is like if you want to build your own big block :)

[techdavey1000]

Nice but Mickey Mouse compared to what gets used at the car factory where the machines are built to produce MILLIONS of engines. The other thing to consider is the engines application and heat load. When I was young an "expert" in the motorbike club bored his Enfield too tight. OK it hummed like a turbine but at the first big hill it started to seize! Air cooled engines need more clearance. Marine engines run at high power for long periods so again more clearance is needed.

[madisonelectronic]

I rebuild small one cylinder motors for friends and as a hobby. When I send a block out I ask only two questions. How much and does the machinist want the new oversize piston. No one gets sent a block unless they want the piston too. I have found factory tolerances are terrible compared to what a good machine shop can produce. The first one I had done years ago was so tight I thought a mistake had been made. That's when I found out about crappy factory standards.

[techdavey1000]

@madisonelectronic It depends on the factory and the skill of the toolsetters. In a good factory the in-process gauges and after-gauges should weed-out rejects instantly. Having said that I once saw an assembler fit a main bearing shell on top of a piece of swarf that was in the oilway. Couldn't stop the line or the zombie and I wasn't his foreman anyway. Hopefully it would have blown up during Hot Test, the 20 minute run before the engine was fitted to the car. Avoiding strikes was #1.

[koopooda]

I watched these video's they are amazing. I am currently building my 350 sbc the pistons were chipped and I could see the rings from the cylinders. When I pulled them out there was not eve a ridge build up and it still had the cross hatch pattern. There are a couple scratches on the cylinder walls. Do you think it needs to be honed or bored?

[BoxWrench]

@koopooda Either yourself or someone at a machine shop should run a dial bore gauge into the cylinder and see what the measurements are for 'out-of-round' and 'taper' for the cylinder. if it's out of spec for either reading, you may want to bore the cylinders. On rare occasions, you can get away with only a hone, but not if there are significant hours and miles on the engine.

[redneck350chevykkk]

@koopooda if you could see the rings looking in at it. that says the cylinders worn out. the hone marks are probly from somebody that attempted to rebuilt it before you had it. and didnt do it rite and honed it when the cylinders were already worn out and put new pistons in it or something

[dekarateman]

great send me more!

[berkelusa]

If a cylinder had minor rust inside how would it be cleaned out and then honed?

[mrrberger]

A general rebuild using this quality of machine is like asking NASA to coordinate a trip to the local drug store for you. The accuracy on these machines is so fine it's in the 10th range then thou and a good operator can even split a 10th in half, I think the average punter needs to know the truth of what they're looking at so they don't buy a drill attachment and think they can get it done. Your Clips Rock!

[mrrberger]

I use to run one of these, bluddy brilliant machine, you should put a torque plate on it while honing and see the difference. I would also suggest an experienced operator can vary the stone pressure during stroke with the top ring to take out barreling or flaring. PS any other honing technique is simply playing around this is serious stuff.

[BoxWrench]

@mrrberger This video is a clip from a 3 hour DVD focusing on a simple rebuild called 'Basic Engine Building'.

We didn't recommend the torque plate to the viewers for this 'basic' stock engine rebuild on the recommend of the machine shop.

They mentioned the accuracy gained for a stock engine rebuild was not beneficial compared to the expense of honing with the torque plate. For performance engine building however, we would absolutely recommend the use of a torque plate for the block honing.

[dirrrrrtyJ]

isn't this still aluminium?

don't tell me these cylinders don't use nicasil...

[seapeddler]

Before modern machinery, the cylinders were trued with honing pigeons.

[faisalabulaziz1]

@seapeddler

lol......hahahahah

[seapeddler]

@faisalabulaziz1 Oh Fortuna it is. Was the baby injured in the video? Just feel the cat has a sense of humour as well.

[faisalabulaziz1]

@seapeddler

didnt get what you said....but hey...

[seapeddler]

@faisalabulaziz1 Your channel shows a video of a cat jumping onto a baby.

I just asked if anyone got injured? And the song was Oh Fortuna, that's all.

[faisalabulaziz1]

@seapeddler

oh ohh right,,,no it wasnt..its a famous clip.....

[79camaro454bbc]

I wish i had the money to have my engine honed. I did mine by drill.

[kreigsmann]

isnt the cylinder boring?

i though honing was somehow reconstructing the cylinder to be the exact size of the original cylinder

[fredtflail]

@LucaBeckenbauer

Crosshatch.

[BoxWrench]

@LucaBeckenbauer

The operator in this video is not actually moving the machine by hand. He is only resting his hand on the machine as it automatically moves up and down creating a very precise cross-hatch angle.

[sierradawn5000]

Sure would like to see more on block honeing

[rockosicko]

Hey BoxWrench, what about using "torque plate"? TP is a aluminum plate that's torqued down on the block before boring job begins. TP creates cylinder distortion on the block just like when engine is assembled together with the head on it.

Using TP is most accurate way to bore out the cylinder. This machinist did not use the TP, albeit "honing" only. But neither did you ever mention TP when boring, on this thread.

[offroadingmachine007]

I did this is shop class to a 4 cylinder.

[BoxWrench]

did your shop class have an actual 'honing' machine or did you "break the glaze" on the cylinders with a hand-held drill with Glaze Breaking stones installed?

There's a very big difference between creating a hash marking on the cylinders and actually "finish honing" and cylinder to size after being bored out...

[offroadingmachine007]

We did "Break the glaze" with a drill.

[BoxWrench]

The machine pictured in this video is much more precise at the final sizing of a cylinder than a hand-held drill could ever be...Honing machines will size out the cylinder after a boring and spec out the bore size to within a couple thousandths of an inch of the desired final size.

A hand drill is just not capable of such precision.

[LittleModig]

This guy sure kick ass to al those Expertvillage bull shea....thanks dude your the king on ENGINES....

[l999rm125]

how much would this cost im looking up pricing for my 327 rebuild thanks

[BoxWrench]

usually, a machine shop will offer a single price for striping down the block, jet wash cleaning, bore, hone and cam bearing replacement.

Estimate a few hundred dollars if you need all that done, but sometimes you will only need the cleaning and hone to clean up the cylinders.

Call a local machine shop and ask for a complete block machining price.

[888onin888]

Can honing be done mannually? to be more specific.. with HANDS? thanks!

[BoxWrench]

True honing is only capable by a large powered machine like the one in this video.

When you see stones on a drill that is being operated by hand, the process is not honing. The drill type stones are only capable of a "de-glazing" procedure that will remove a surface coating of carbon build-up or other residuals left on the cylinder wall.

A hand-drill powered de-glazer does not have the power required to outwardly apply pressure against the inside cylinder walls for a true hone job.

[guayacan07]

yes it can, there's a honer air tool

[Robkat3751]

Honing can be done manually. Sunnen makes a portable precision honer that will size to .0005 perhaps closer depending on the skill of the operator. The sunnen machine is not a glaze breaker but a hone that will take out the out of round and taper.

[capriracer351]

@Robkat3751 Yes, That is how I do my cylinder walls. I can get the taper to within .0003 and round within .0001, however it takes me about 3 to 4 hours per cylinder. Not very efficient, but I have never been able to find anyone in this area to take the care to do it this close.

I learned how to do this from my Dad who had done it since the '60s. I sent out a test block to a local "expert", even gave him my torque plate since he did not have one for a Ford. It came back all over the place.

[seapeddler]

@capriracer351 I was told by the machine shop that my engine would seize if the cyls. didn't have a taper. With a 10 thousandths tolerance, you must burn less oil than a factory engine. The Ford shop manuals allow .010 maximum taper, I believe, before overhaul. Which is nonsense. That's for an 80's engine though.

[capriracer351]

@seapeddler You have to remember, I am not into mass production like Ford is. I would be out of business in a week if I were. What I am after is as close to zero leakdown as possible. That tolerance you specified for the 80's Ford engine must explain why the car I had new back then burned a quart of oil every 800 miles even when broken in. I would find another machine shop, your pistons don't seize if you don't have a taper. They are justifying a crappy hone job.

[Nd4Spd01]

I have a question I wanna rebuilt my H22 engine starting with replacing the sleeves for the cylinders and the head valve train with high performence parts I have the pricing for the parts but I need to know how much a machine shop will charge to do that?? I can do everything else except for that! can anyone help me out!!?

[BoxWrench]

Every machine shop is different and will have various price ranges for the work they do for you.

Best thing to do is contact a machine shop near you and just ask them for a quote for the work that you think you need done. They can also advise you of the work that you may not have thought of or didn't know was involved as a standard procedure.

[LittleModig]

hello I was doing the head valve job on my bmw 1987 and I saw the walls of the pistons it had this cross markings in the piston holes is this good or bad?is what hes talking about the two things they'll do small s crashes in the inside of the block holes....the mechanic said thats original from boring the block....can some one help mea little .....on this??? the psi I test they did was 175 per each piston is that good???

[BoxWrench]

angled cross-hatch marks (diagonal scratches) are the final hone of the cylinder bore as shown in this video.

Your cylinder wall should never be smooth as glass with a shiny chrome finish... there would be no way for small particles of oil to stick to the wall. The small droplets of oil are what keep your pistons moving smoothly and keep the cylinder walls from wearing away.

and yes, 175 psi across all pistons is a good compression reading for about 9:1 compression or a little higher.

[fast05f7]

i wouldnt hone my block with out deck plates. your cylinders will be all distorted when you torque up the heads now.

[techdavey1000]

@fast05f7 They didn't use deck plates at the car factory oh no! Instead there was a gigantic "transfer machine" [tools out, unclamp, load bars forward, clamp, tools in, tools out] The machine had about twelve workstations and all the cylinders were bored at one go. The noise and power was amazing, for instance there was a 3" diameter "ring main" air supply and a fog of cutting oil mist so the area wasn't really suitable for humans. Ah those were the days.

[whitefoxx52]

what should i do with my cracked head?

[mephil8800]

pvc glue it

[techdavey1000]

@whitefoxx52 If its a cheap common head try a car dismantlers or eBay. If its rare and expensive get it welded. You don't say whether it is cast iron or aluminium and you don't say if its air cooled or water cooled. Minor cracks might succumb to K Seal a liquid coolant additive although this is really just a case of buying time. Good luck.

[fuckyoda]

can you a bore a 1955 AMC 327 big block motor? its supposed to be like chevy's 454 but with out compatable parts

[CRF250RGUY]

I assume you can bore any motor as long as there is enough thickness left in the block or large enough pistons available.

[SkinnyPimpYYZ]

if your rebuilding an engine must you do this if youll be using the same pistons?

[ThundareRed]

no, u cant use the same pistons after this is done, you'll need to get new ones.

[SkinnyPimpYYZ]

no i mean like if u do rebuild an engine do you HAVE TO HAVE this boring done? or can u just leave the bores alone and use the same pistons again with new rings and etc.

[ThundareRed]

oh, yea u can rebuild an engine without having to bore the cylinders, feel free to use the same pistons and new rings. It just depends on the wear of the engine if u need to bore them out.

[CRF250RGUY]

Depends. If the cylinder walls are damaged, they may need honing, or even reboring. But sometimes you might just need to break the glaze on the walls, I would just use some fine grit wet and dry paper with some oil on it.

[AmericansSexualPreds]

well no cuz then ull have gaps

[verbaldistress]

yeah honing is needed. Boring is the rough cut of the cylinder and honing is done after boring to hone out the bore smooth it out in other words.

[DirtridinElCamino]

honing is to restore the "cross hatching" that comes from the factory or create a new cross hatch

[mudboy59]

whats a good college in the usa for engine building? i want to get into the engine building feild but not just be another poor mechanic, maby get into stock car or drag racing? just give me some schools that would be of good interest for this, oh, and maby also help me get a job after im out of school. thanks!

[BoxWrench]

Do a Google search for:

UTI  or Lincoln Tech

[crxlover83]

lti is garbage. UTI is by far better

[rfds001]

Hi,

I have a question that might seem really silly.

Say for example I have a motor and I want to used a forged piston in, say .020' oversize, just for example.

I understand that the engine would need to be 'bored' to suit the new pistons. Does the honing machine as used in this video do this? I don't know the difference between a boring machine and a honing machine or are they the same thing?

Thank you.

[BoxWrench]

This is a short clip taken from a 3 1/2 hour instructional video...

There is an entire chapter about how the block is bored out and this is part of the subsequent chapter that shows how the rough surface left by the boring machine is smoothed by the honing machine.

The machine here does not bore the cylinder, it's a completely different process done by a machine who's only job is to make the cylinders a few thousandths of an inch larger to accept new, larger pistons.

[bigblockboi]

what is the "about cost" to get a engine bored 40. over? from a 2.5l to a 3.2l

[BoxWrench]

Boring a 4 cylinder block would likely be less than $100 but there's no guaranty that there won't be other work needed. You also need to consider purchase of new pistons for the new oversized bores as well as a gasket set for the rebuild. There are complete rebuild kits available though that will have everything needed in one box.

Mahle/Clevite and Sealed Power are two major parts distributors you can look up kits with...

[MrGuvEuroman]

Do they just do kits for American cars? (From Mark in the UK) : )

[BoxWrench]

Mahle is a huge European based company that acquired Clevite Engine parts and others.

They have kits for just about every car in the world...

[MrGuvEuroman]

YAY! I recognise the name for pistons but never knew about the Kits! Great vids thank for yr reply : )

[renesisrx8]

I wonder if there are any classes at my University specifically for engine building.

[BoxWrench]

You should check with them...

[stixzor]

so i was wondering, where would someone like me, who has limited experience working with engines gain experience? would an auto shop teach me? or is this something you'd have to go to a technical school for?

[BoxWrench]

There are schools such as Lincoln Tech and UTI around the country but you can also contact small or large service centers or rebuild shops and see what kind of entry level jobs they might have.

[jacktheripped]

the cylinders are never polished, they need the cross hatch to seat the rings for compression and stop oil blow-by

[shyamvk]

i meant, cylinder block

[BoxWrench]

Our complete DVD has some footage of the machinist installing a repair "sleeve" into a bore. The cylinder is bored out to an extreme over size and then a steel sleeve is hammered in place. This method can repair a single damaged cylinder wall, bring a rare and out of date engine block back into service and also allow someone to return a block that was bored many times back to it's original "standard" size bore. These techniques are used for restoration or fuel economy engine builds.

[shyamvk]

Excuse the newbiw question:

The cylinder head comes as a rough casting and is then machined right? How is the bore and hole made in the first place?

The 'honing' process is more of a finishing process to achieve geometric finish and tolerance in the bore, correct?

Why does the operator use the Dial gauge only on the top surface ID and not on the bottom also.

[BoxWrench]

The block and heads are raw cast material but the block has steel sleeves inserted into the casting at the plant, these sleeves are melded in place and the bore and hone finalizes the sizing according to actual piston sizes.

You'll notice at :48 to :51 seconds into the video the dial bore gauge is used at the top of the cylinder, then the bottom and back up at the top. This is reaped very often through the honing process to be accurate within a ten-thousandth of an inch...very precise.

[calibermoon]

I wonder if machine shops like this allow interns; basically people who will work for free for the experience.

[BoxWrench]

I've never known anyone that turned down free help...

that's exactly how I got most of my first jobs years ago.

[tankjr85]

inch? what that means? i only know millimeters :)

[carmenlee87]

I BET THIS AINT CHEAP

[BoxWrench]

You'd be surprised, a good sized machine shop does a lot of engines every day and can offer a great price for package deals. Often it will include stripping down components, cleaning refurbishing and sometimes assembly, for an all inclusive fee that would be cheaper than if you did them separately.

[techdavey1000]

@BoxWrench Choose your machine shop carefully. One place I went to that had been highly recommended was absolutely dreadful (I walked out in disgust) It seemed that when I went there it was Ford Pinto week and there was a grease monkey stripping down engines with an air wrench and throwing all the parts into skips. Pick-N-Mix conrods for instance. Don't they know that these are weight matched in sets of four even on budget price vehicles? Absolutely dismal.

[vangmaster530]

so how much will it cost to hone a 4 cylinder car

[BoxWrench]

Unfortunately, YouTube isn't the best place for your question...

You really should contact a local machine shop to what ever state or country you're in and get a quote.

On the average, in the US, a 4 cylinder block hone job may be in the ball park of $100 but it's rarely a case of only needing a hone job. During a rebuild, you'll often find the need to perform various machining jobs to make all the engine components like new.

All the other machine shop work is shown in detail in our DVD...

[poormanstyperb16]

im in CA for got to put that =/

[poormanstyperb16]

anyone in here knows a good shop that can rebuild or build motors like honda motors?

[BoxWrench]

The machine shop in this video is a great place in San Fernando CA called Eddings Engine Rebuilding.

Family owned and operated. A father and two sons run the place and they do a great job on any engine under the sun. Hot rods to Hondas and anything else you can think of with pistons.

They've done the machine work for every engine in the BoxWrench Series of videos. We highly recommend them.

Tell 'em BoxWrench sent ya!

[03030303]

so I take it I should not purchase overbore rings, lets say .030 over, until the machining is completed?

[03030303]

Ok, I just watched "Connecting Rods Machine Shop Video" and it explained what to do.

thanks.

[BoxWrench]

Yes, you want to wait until the machine shop has finish the refurbish process or work with them or ordering parts. If your block needs to be bored, your old pistons will not fit anymore. The machine shop will need to wait for the new pistons to arrive. Then they will measure them and hove to a perfect fit.

All this is covered in detail in our 3 1/2 hour DVD...including re-assembly of all components.

[circus9017]

what are the advantages/disadvantages to bore an engine of a 4 cyl car? is it a risky thing to ask a mechanic to do-as in can things go wrong if the job is not done perfect?

[BoxWrench]

There are two main reasons to bore a block:

1. Cylinder walls were damaged or worn and boring out to next largest piston size will repair problem.

2. Larger displacement is desired in the combustion chambers to allow for more fuel to be burned to create more power from the engine.

There's nothing risky about boring a block if you remove the engine and have the boring done at a machine shop by a knowledgeable machinist.

Boring a block is industry standard procedure but will require new pistons

[4x4forlyfe]

so can pistons be reused after an angine is honed? because I know that after an engine wears, the concentricity of the bore becomes a little egg-shaped. and not only that, but the bore's taper plays a huge factor as well...doesn't it?

[BoxWrench]

Everything is related to the bore measurements in the block and the "out-of-round" and "taper" readings.

Measurements will tell you if there is a severe "egg shape"/Out-of-Round scenario, and, if the bore diameter readings from the top to the bottom of the bore are different, you'll have Taper that will need to be fixed by boring and then honing.

But, if those measures check out, you can see if the pistons are in decent shape for re-use. Not always possible though in high mileage engines.

[4x4forlyfe]

you can do this with a drill and a honing stones attachment at home???

[BoxWrench]

Stones in a hand held drill will absolutely not size out a cylinder after it's been bored. Those tools are incorrectly named "honing stones". They are actually only "Glaze Breaking" stones. Their only purpose is to return the crosshatch marks to the cylinder wall during a rebuild so that the walls with hold oil for sealing.

Hand held glaze breaking stones are only effective on a bore that is true and round without other damage.

Only a machine can size a bore to the final precise measurement.

[DrumsAndConcussions]

Man, that was pretty cool. All of your videos are really interesting. I'm a car guy, and i hate watching shows where they don't explain much about what they're doing.

[vhcommy]

seriousley good viewing..

[Marvosa]

pretty cool machine.. i mean percision

[nxmoparmatt84]

i do this with a drill and the honing stones attachment.

[BoxWrench]

All that you are doing with "honing" stones and a drill is referred to as Glaze Breaking. A hand drill will never remove enough metal to actually size a bore.

Hand held tools are designed to refinish the crosshatch scratches of a bore that is already true and round and that does not have a serious ridge or other damage.

If a rebuild block is in good shape you can use honing stones. In this video the block was bored out, a hand held drill would never be capable of finishing the bore correctly

[zak7711]

This is by far the best engine rebuild DVD I ever bought -from Jegs-.. although uses a Chevy block but is applicable to ALL engines, especially pushrods.

[Heneryfordrules]

Nice information, customers always think we just take there money and pant there motor's

5 stars

[ghostman559]

that waould cost a lots

[6389033]

about how much would this cost???

[BoxWrench]

Just call around to a couple automotive machine shops, they usually have a package price for an entire engine block service job that should only be a few hundred dollars at most. They will strip down the block, remove engine plugs, check and clean the block for you and may even hone and install camshaft bearings all in one package price deal.

[kylepotatoes]

Good video, I always wanted to know how it was done.

[authmaax]

fuuuuuuuuck... this is imperfect shit

[makeminealarge1]

very interesting

[beyondthecallofduty]

Evert Garcia ,From Venezuela excelente Video