Gaza slaughter started, no chance for Peace ? / Schlachten in Gaza, keine Chance für Frieden ? 01/04/09

[otBISMARCKto]

Immer machen die Juden unruhen auf der ganzen welt

[prosepp]

klar - die ständige rumpauschaliererei ist schon immer die Wurzel vieler Übel gewesen.

Hat vielleicht zu mehr Übel und Unruhen geführt als "DIE Juden".

Mein Tip ist eigentlich immer: Vom Hirnbesitzer zum Hirnbenutzer mutieren. Das ist die erste Voraussetzung für friedliches Miteinander

[SOTHISISDEMOCRACY]

mein gott, ist dieser typ schwachsinnig

[prosepp]

genialer Kommi. Herzlichen Dank für deinen Besuch

ich hoffe nur dass DU starksinniger bist als ich es bin

herzlichen Gruss

[SOTHISISDEMOCRACY]

der typ ist wirklich ein unpassender schwafler. können wir bitte nicht wirklich kompetentere leute sehen? das ist ja widerlich. geh pennen, du trottel. lass die welt in ruhe. du bist zu blöd dafür. es ist gut gemeitn aber lern erstmal englisch, das ist alles peinlich bis zum kotzen hier

[prosepp]

Ja, das macht Spass, nicht ? Schnell mal nen YouTube account aufmachen und dann losziehen und Leute beleidigen.

Darin bist du ja anscheinend sehr geübt.

Bin mal gespannt ob du eventuell auch interessante Fähigkeiten hast, oder ob sich deine Fähigkeiten darin dann auch schon erschöpfen

[panzerchris88]

Ihr seid vom Krieg verwöhnt! Akzeptiert, dass alles passieren kann. Tod für jeden. Die westliche Welt ist zu verweichlicht. Im 2. Weltkrieg starben jeden Tag Tausende. Heute verrecken Tausende in Afika jeden Tag.Normal.

[panzerchris88]

ja, ich meinte mit "Gutmenschen", Leute die denken, Krieg ist Gut gegen Böse. Krieg ist eine Grauzone, die Zivilisten krepieren, die Bösen sterben und die Guten, alle verrecken.

Akzepiert dass, wenns nicht hier pasiert!

[panzerchris88]

Ich wieder, der Böse. Heutzutage gibt es fast nur schmutzige (asimetrische) Kriege). Das wollen keine Gutmenschen. Den Job machen unsere Militärs. Bald auch die liebe Bundeswehr, ob sie will, oder nicht.

[prosepp]

Das mit den "Gutmenschen" ist ja so ne Sache. Denn das hiesse dann, dass sich die Bevölkerung in "Gutmenschen", "Schlechtmenschen" und vielleicht noch "Neutralmenschen" aufteilt.

Komische Vorstellung.

Den Job machen die Militärs, da hast du recht. Und die Interessen, denen sie dienen (müssen) sind nicht immer ganz eindeutig, auch in "demokratischen" Staaten.

Um die Veteranen kümmert sich dann keiner mehr, die sind wie Abschaum (siehe USA) und werden verdrängt

[panzerchris88]

Servus prosepp, schön das du meine meine persönliche Nachricht an Dich öffentlich machst. Aber ich stehe dazu. Die Gedanken sind frei! Aber das Handeln folgt der Notwendigkeit und Realität.

[prosepp]

also einer von uns beiden kann ja gerne die zweite, die einen etwas anderen Tonfall hatte, dazustellen.

Ich hatte keine Lust, irgendwelchen Ärger in mich hineinzufressen. Und dein "die" war ja recht deutlich *gg

[panzerchris88]

Mein "die" war dumm und ich nehm es zurück. Mann kann mit Dir sinnvoll diskutieren, und ich schätze dass. Selten auf Youtube. Nur deine Wortwahl "Schlachten" z.B. störte mich.

[prosepp]

selten auf YouTube, stimmt.

Ich hab das Wort in dem Fall bewusst benutzt, denn in einem so dicht besiedelten Gebiet kann nichts anderes bei raus kommen.

Nur dass es im Gegensatz zu den Kriegen von früher, als die Schlachten irgendwo draussen auf der "Grünen Wiese" stattgefunden haben, hier die Zivilbevölkerung den Blutzoll zahlt.

Da kann sich die israelische Armee noch so bemühen, dass dies nicht passiert, es ist unvermeidbar

[prosepp]

@panzerchris88 schrieb mir:

Hallo sepp,

danke für deinen schönen Beitrag. Du klingst wie Hans Söllner. Nur, Israel ist die einzige Demokratie im Nahen Osten. Die Hamas ist eine Terrorgruppe, die Israel vernichten will und die Verhandlungen als Schwäche ihrer Gegner wertet.

Hast du dein "Stopp" der Hamas jemals entgegen gebracht?

Ich hoffe, die Israelis säubern Gaza von allen terroristischen Elementen.

- 2 -

[prosepp]

- 2 -, mail von @panzerchris88

Wie sagte einst ein deutscher Oberkommandierender, " Diese .... sind mit der Waffe zu erledigen".

Wenn du gegen Israel bist, bist du für den Terror der Hamas. Es gibt keine sauberen Krieg. Verluste der Zivilbevölkerung sind nicht zu vermeiden, insbesondere da die Hamas keine reguläre Truppe mit Uniformen ist.

- 3 -

[prosepp]

- 3 -, mail von @panzerchris88

Haager Landkriegsorndung: Bei Partisanenkriegführung sind Geiselerschießungen durch die Bestzungsmacht legitim.

Partisanen sind von der Zivilbevökerung nicht zu unterscheiden, demzufolge ist auch die Zivil-Bev. als potientiellen Feind zu betrachten und zu behandeln.

Ich bin kein Neonazi.

[panzerchris88]

Die.

[prosepp]

herzlichen Dank, auch für deine Mail.

Das, was du dort geschrieben hast, hast Du dich ja anscheinend hierher nicht zu schreiben getraut.

Klar, man könnte sich ja outen.

Egal wie.

Ich wünsch dir für 2009 Alles Gute: Glück, Gesundheit und Frieden.

Und eines vor Allem:

Ein langes, langes Leben, damit dir Viel Zeit bleibt vielleicht irgendwann mal das denken anzufangen

herzliche Grüsse

Eduard

[KENOEFF]

If an intervention by the UN is blocked by any country, then this country is to blame for the ongoing killing, mutilation & violation of citizens.

[prosepp]

t-online, based on AP, AFP & dpa:

Trotz der Eskalation der Gewalt konnte sich der Weltsicherheitsrat in der Nacht nicht auf eine gemeinsame Linie einigen. Nach fast vierstündigen Beratungen sagte der amtierende Vorsitzende Jean-Maurice Ripert am Samstagabend in New York gleichwohl, es gebe eine "starke Übereinstimmung" bei den Mitgliedern, ihre ernsthafte Sorge über die Lage zu äußern. Die große Mehrheit verlange eine sofortige Waffenruhe -2-

[prosepp]

-2-

Der amerikanische UN-Vertreter Alejandro Wolff betonte dagegen, es schade dem Ansehen des Sicherheitsrats, Forderungen zu stellen, die nachher nicht befolgt würden. Israel sei ein Mitglied der Weltgemeinschaft. Sein Vorgehen dürfe nicht mit Aktionen einer Terrorgruppe wie der Hamas verglichen werden.

______________

I read this statement of the US amassador Wolff as a clear sign that the Bush admin is even blocking a call for peace (as no one talks bout intervention)

[desire4liberation]

what concerns me sooo deeply.... is WHY?

WHY is bush stopping this.... is he waiting for Iran or Pakistan to intervene? Then he will have the excuse he has been so desperately waiting for to attack them?

Will this then be the reason for America to be under Martial Law?

Will this be the stepping stone for more ZIONIST control?

Are we to all sit back and just watch?

Is there some way we can stop this? or is it too far advanced for us to regain any sort of control???

[prosepp]

This WHY is a good question. But a question no can reall answer to you.

Be sure, i also think about such possibilities (esp. the first one you mentioned).

What i tell you now may cause you to say what has your answer to do with my question. But as you really cannot do more than watch and PRAY (important !!) i ask you to think about the "rattle sanke".

Think about the "rattle snake" and learn from her. What is the rattle snake doing ? what gave her the name ??

[KENOEFF]

I can not believe that the gouvernement of any country in this world does not condemm what is happening here !

Despite all, this is embarresing for all !!

[prosepp]

well, Ferd, read the news that clearly state that the Bush administration kept the UN from making a resolution that calls both sides of the conflict to STOP.

So what else is this behaviour else, than an affront to the whole world (and i add: again).

In Germany its a bit different. Germany has no seat in the UN security counsil, so the attitude of our Chancellor Mrs. Merkel does not have such enormuous consequences as the behaviour of the Bush administration

[sadandlonely1]

It is not only the Bush Administration. The EU president backs Israel in its offensive as well (eliminate space in URL):

reuters. com/article/UKNews1/idUKTRE4BT­1RC20081230

[prosepp]

Well, on that the question is: who is the dog and who is he tail.

I repeat myself, and i know myself in unity with many people on the world (and i can talk clear as i have no strategic interests):

STOP THE WAR !! STOP it NOW !!

And i say:

To me, all the worldly political leaders, and also all religion leaders that don´t take urgent action to make both sides STOP the bloodshed immediately, make themselves guilty !!

I have nothing more to say at the moment

[sadandlonely1]

I pray with you and earnestly share your hopes that the brutality and the killing end - on both sides. Be well and have a peaceful night.

[prosepp]

thank you very much, for both, the prayer and the wishes.

And i, too, wish you to be well and have a peaceful night.

Eduard

[piniarosa]

This is not simply a self-defence. Israel is a much more developed country, with a huge advantage over Palestine (which I think makes the Palestinian fighters even more desperate), so you would think they would be the more responsible one. Iam not saying any side is right here. But people are dying, so STOP, STOP, STOP! Both sides STOP!

[prosepp]

you hint to a very important point, that so far no one brought into the discussion:

the psychologic situation of the Hamas fighters. This IS a problem, and every chance for making real peace that has been failed in the past forced this problem.

There will be so much hard work necessary to overcome the situation of hate and violence. And every victim makes the situation worse.

So you are soooo right:

STOP STOP STOP! Both sides STOP !

[KENOEFF]

Should all the world watch this daily bloodshed or should they do something?

Do we still point fingers on who`s to blame after all these years ?

This sickmaking war should be stopped !!!!

Send in the UNO & protect the civilians.

***** for Eduard.

[prosepp]

Yes, sending in the UNO and protectiong the civilians would be a solutuion for the moment. It would be a good solution.

But THIS will not take place, as the UN are like in bondage. As long as the United States of America even block a "call for Stop" by the UN, the UN are a like a toothless tiger put into a cage and additional tied with a rope.

I am not one who blames, but the USA have a responsibility as well as Israel & Hamas

[werner12000]

after months of rocket attacks from gaza with dozens of israeli victims, israel is fighting back trying to stop the ongoing attacks. for me that is nothing else than self-defense which any other nation on the earth would do also. palestinians are the international most supported group of people on the earth and if they would do the right things with the money and not invest it in weapons they could lead a quite good life.

[prosepp]

werner, i am very sorry, but i don´t go parallel with what you are writing here. Absolutely not.

I don´t know how you come to these conclusions you share with us.

"palestinians are the international most supported group of people on the earth". Can you, please, tell me, where there is any proof for that ?

As far as i know, the state of Israel is de facto most supported State in the world, as alone the USA support Israel with billions of dollars each year

[desire4liberation]

i think it is obvious that mr bush is in support of the "slaughter"... he murdered over 1 million Iraqi's 2 million Afghanitan's... he is EVIL... NOW America will see that the president elect is part of the same club. How did these people take over the world? They are the minority! How did we allow this to happen? How can we stop it? Will we stop it? Or is this truly the end??? I just want to say that I live in America and I condemn the acts of this government!! my heart is breaking:(((

[prosepp]

have you ever doubted that the president elected will be of the same club ? Of course, i still have a lil bit of hope that might turn out, but i don´t really exspect that.

But what´s much more important in the actual situation: Keep calm ! (not in a sense of: let things go and forget it - but in an active way, that keeps you able to act without being blinded by too many emotions when action gets necessary)

[ferdgeislersingt]

Mann kann heutzutage Fernsehen ohne Ton.

Die Bilder brauchen gar keine Erklärung mehr !

Es ist einfach schade, vieviele Opfer bedarf es bevor wieder geredet wird ? Welch eine traurige Sinnlosigkeit. !!

Für Eduard ***** wegen Mut & Tapferkeit.

[sadandlonely1]

(1)

I think that the base of this conflict is really simpler than you think. It is NOT a religious conflict as you keep saying. Israel is a SECULAR country, most people there are non-observant, and religious fanatisicm is a relatively rare phenomenon (have you ever heard of a Jewish suicide bomber...?). Religious parties form a small minority in the Parliament, and are currently in opposition. (continued)

[desire4liberation]

No never hear of a Jewish suicide bomber cuz they have the REAL BOMBS (made in the good ole USA!!! They don't have to resort to blowing themselves up to fight... they cowardly send in the rounds!!! Now i am not for the violence by no means... but you people have the facts alll wrong.... What is up is down what is black is white... It takes much discernment to sort through the lies we have been told!!!!

[prosepp]

yes, it is difficult to sort through the lies that we have been told.

But we have no other choice than keeping calm and DO that sorting.

And this sorting will be a long and painful process for ALL involved parties - but it can´t be done at the moment.

At the moment there´s only one thing that counts: To STOP the Fighting & Dying in the Gaza strip.

To stop it as fast as possible

[sadandlonely1]

Jews have bombs only in Israel. But around the world you don't see them blowing up embassies, burning down churches, killing athletes in the olympics or crashing planes into buildings, do you?

Indeed, there are many lies - that is why sometimes one needs to use his own intelligence and his own common sense.

[prosepp]

good morning.

Do you know, what´s the problem i see ?

You are very very fixed in prejudice. You write quite kind, but you always find a new prejudice do point back on the "bad bad moslems or palestinians" (without speaking that out).

Maybe you do so, as you are only a pessimist and unable to look optimistic on things. But that attitude leads into a culture of death.

Actually we are shown, what comes out of a culture of death.

[sadandlonely1]

Despite my name (lol), you will be surprised to know that I am all for ending Israeli occupation, founding of a sovreign Palestinian state, even the division of Jerusalem. The only problem is: Who are you going to talk to? Palestinian prime-minister Mahmud Abas, which is powerless? Hamas, which doesn't even recognize Israel? Lebanon, which is dictated by Hizbulla? Iran? who? Sorry for coming forth as pessimistic, but I really think it's not me, its our crazy reality. Good day and Peace.

[desire4liberation]

probably because they own all the above mentioned... and i do not speak of the Jewish people... i speak of the Zionist's

[sadandlonely1]

(2)

The problem I believe is much more straight-forward: Most Arab nations - Palestine included - simply do not recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. If you think I am talking nonesense- please ask the opinion of your Palestinian and Arab friends... Now try making peace...

[Rauskucker]

I just wonder how you can call Israel both a secular state and a jewish state. There are only two countries defining themselves by religion, Iran and Israel.

I think, the time for a two-state solution is over. All the people living in Palestine will have to join in one secular, non-racist, multi-cultural state.

[sadandlonely1]

One country for Palestnians and Israelis... hmmm... OK lets see you pull that one off...! :) Further, I don't understand what the problem is with Jewish and secular. 95% of the population of Denmark are Evangelical Lutheran, and 90% of the population of France are Protestant. Both countries are CHRISTIAN & SECULAR. By contrast, the only country in the Islamic world which can be considered secular (meaning a separation between State and Religion) is Turkey, and (to a much lesser degree), Tunisia.

[prosepp]

its getting more and more interesting, indeed.

First a little correction: think you wanted to write that 90% of the population of France are catholic (not protestant).

Your last sentence is interesting:

You state that Turkey is the only secular state in the islamic world, and then you add, that Tunisia is secular, too, but to a much lesser degree.

Interesting is, that other way round Turkey is much more restrictive on other religions than Tunisia !!

[sadandlonely1]

Perhaps you're right, I don't really know... In both countries over 99% of the population are Muslim (as in most the Islamic world). I have visited both, and can tell you that neither are the most pleasant places to be Jewish or Christian.

[prosepp]

I can only talk about Tunisia, and there, of course, not of the whole country.

I know the situation there for 40 years now (also i myself have not been there in the past years i know that things have not really changed the past years).

In the south of Tunisia there are Christians, jews and muslims living together for more than 1000 years without problems !!

sorry that commenting space is so short, maybe i´ll talk about that the next days in a vid

[sadandlonely1]

I'd say you are probably talking about Djerba? Yes, Jews have been living there in relative peace. Still, I take it you do recall the 14 German tourists (amongst others) who were blown up in a synagogue there by a suicide bomber a few years back.

[prosepp]

This is like the german proverb, that tells: Clothes make people.

Finally it should be: clothes fake (or camouflage) people.

The only and important necessity, is that people are able to live and coexist in Peace. And in Paletine this will be a very very difficult and long process to reach that possibility.

If in the end there will be one or two states, secular or not secular states - that will turn out.

A STOP of violence is urgently needed as a very first step

[sadandlonely1]

Let me remind you, the aim of the ground operation is not "slaughter" of civilians, but neutralizing the Hamas regime which is holding these innocent people hostage.

[prosepp]

i know that the aim of the whole operation is not slaughter of civilians. Of course, it is not !

I fear that some slaughter will happen, as the civilians are in between the lines.

Perhaps you might even be some kind of right when you say that they are like a kind of hostages for the militant Hamas people.

- 2-

[prosepp]

And, of course, the Israelian side will sure have interest in having too many civilian victims - the fanatics on Hamas side maybe just try to have a lot ofvthem to be able to show how "inhuman" the Israelians are.

Another thought is, that there also may be fanatics on the israelian side, too, that might have an interest in many civilian victims as they perhaps want to provoke more conflict

[desire4liberation]

no disrespect... You need to research a bit more. The Palastinian's have been bullied by Israel (backed by US) for many many years. They have the right to fight back... to protect their land. The media always shows LIES... you have been lied too. If someone is invading your home, do you believe you have the right to protect and defend? OF COURSE you do....

[prosepp]

was this on me or on @sadandlonely1 ?

Of course the palestinians have been suppressed (openly or -and that was the more- with hidden supression means) for many many years.

And its no question that this is on one hand not correct, and on the other hand just caused Intifada years ago.

At that time it surely had been much easier to come into a peace process and really change the situation of the Palestinian people - but that was neither in the interest of Isreal, nor USA

[Maxwedge12000]

There was no chance for peace starting 3 years ago when the gazans started launching rockets into irael. Over 6,000 rockets so far but the world, and people like you paid little attention. NOW that israel is defending itself, NOW it's a problem. Go back to sleep, the israelis will handle as they always have.

[prosepp]

sorry, i sometimes forget that i am just the lil stupid sinner i am.

And sorry, that i just can´t sleep.

And, another sorry, that i am not joining into arithmetics of war by counting bombs and rockets.

I see fanatism & strategic interests on both sides - and the victims are the civilians.

As i replied to @sadandlonely1, radical Hamas powers have resposibility for that escalation.

I just see no future in that "handling as always" as it will bring NO solution

[inishmannin]

yes you are right peace is the only way

[prosepp]

Peace is always the only way, in the end.

And the longer a conflict lasts, the more difficult it becomes to enter in a process leading to peace.

That´s what´s mostly forgotten in all discussions: That there are basically two kinds of process, that lead in opposite directions:

Process of War and process of Peace.

Peace is no state, as it always has to be protected and to be worked on to remain where there IS Peace.