The pilots flying through the MOA are idiots and sound like douchebags on the radio. "Let me get the airplane under control" HAHA! He's in a 3k/min climb and he considers that out of control.
@jaybird42o You seem to have no clue about what you're talking about. Air Force regulations, or any organization (such as airline SOP's) are superceded by the FAR's. So anyone can make up their own little rules as long as they don't contradict the FAA's rules. It even states in the Air Force regulations that any deviation from the federal rules must receive an exception from the FAA. You should learn more about the subject on which you speak before you publicly make a fool out of yourself.
Ok, I've read all the comments. But, the civ pilots whined like a bitch on the radio never the less. Roll the tape and lets hear him shit his pants again :) Yes, I've had a face full of F-18 in R-2508. Just keep chugging along and everything will be fine.
Just because you CAN legally fly through an active MOA, does not mean you should. You do realize this area is set aside for military pilots to train, hopefully WITHOUT having to worry about a civillian bugsmasher suddenly appearing in their windshield? Entering an active MOA of your own accord, well, you assume the risk. Not incumbent upon the F-16 to have to avoid you.
@JPH1786 Knucklehead. The civilian pilots were flying 100% legal. The F16 pilot made an agressive approach and violated clearances. He forced the civilian pilots to violate the MOA airspace when they had to climb above 19K to avoid the F16. The F16 pilot was repremanded which normally would have effectively ended his career by killing promotion. Also this reprimand would follow him if he trys tobecome an airline pilot.
@Robbob9933 Violated clearances? Bullshit. He was well clear. Period. GA Pilot freaked out, and shouldn't have been flying through an active MOA in the first place where jets are regularly flying at 500+ knots.
@skipplet Fince the FAA did nothing to the civilian pilots and the Air Force repremanded the AF pilot, it is enough to say that the AF pilot was 100% in the wrong. The fact that the AF added training instructions to not go off and fuck with civilian planes passing through is more telling about how serious the AF took it.
@JPH1786 Also, if you have any knowledge of airspace in Arizona, Nevada, and southern California, you are har pressed to fly and not interact with MOAs as there are at least six major military air facilities with constant operations.
@Robbob9933 Sir, I am civillian pilot as well as a military aviator. I know what kinds of activities we take part in in MOAs, and they are NOT conducive to mixing with civillian aviation. When I fly on the civillian side, I am fully aware what MOAs are hot and which are cold, and do everything to avoid flying through them. Prior planning will prevent you from having to be there, and greatly enhance both your safety and those of the military pilots training there.
@Robbob9933 I am also familiar with the Arizona/Nevada SUAs, and while I realize they are very extensive, they are not so large as to be wholey unavoidable. I again stress that while it's fully legal for your $100 dollar hamburger runner to go busting through a MOA, it's probably not in the best interest of his continued welfare, when closure speeds between his aircraft and an F-16 or something similar could top 800 knots.
Look fighter pilots get bored and on top of that your in a moa. Wth is wrong with any military aircraft forming up to u or just wanting to show off they have onboard radar there not going to hit you unless it's with a missle. Should have just keep crusing and gave him the finger.
@jb42682 Because every pilot has the skills to fly in close formation with a fighter jet. Formation flying without proper training and radio communication with the other pilot is suicidal.
The F-16 Pilot was probably feeling a little bold and flight happy. A good repremand from his superiors would be good for disipline regardless of who was at fault.
How can you "legally" fly through an "active" MAO? F-16s won't be getting 100% SA with radar. The APG-68 can scan only so much airspace at a time. F-16 pilots risk their lives every time they go up, and the nerve of these GA pilots to say what they say is pretty lame.
It was a hot MOA. GA pilot has no room to complain. He chose to fly through an MOA and if he didn't contact the local FSS or look on his sectional chart to find out the time of MOA use, that's his fault.
Granted the F16 pilot probably wasn't in his jurisdiction to intercept a plane that isn't committing an offense and without orders but it is a hot MOA.
Former Navy fighter pilot here. The GA plane was talking to the controlling agency. A military aircraft would be talking talking to the same agency if he were IFR, and it's obvious that he was not - so we can assume he was VFR. There is no such thing as a "HOT" MOA. What becomes "HOT" are the ranges and MTRs (military training routes) - and that only means something to those of us in the military who are de-conflicting from each other. A Navy pilot would have been FENABed for this.
@TheMarshallEvans Maybe the Navy does it differently, but in the Air Force, you are always talking to an area monitor when out in the MOA. Fuyrther, the area monitor is almost always the same controlling frequency (RAPCON/Center) of the airspace around the MOA. And yes, MOAs can in fact be hot and cold.
Awesome! How come cool stuff like this dosn't happen to me when I'm out flying? If an F-16 pulled up on my wing just to say hi....., I'd be buying the pilots drinks, not filing complaints.
@Mxsmanic you have to remember Luke AFB is where F-16 pilots are trained! This includes F-16 users from other countries, which have different rules and regulations for their own airspace. That pilot might have been a 22 year old 2nd LT. Either way, if the F-16 is in formation with a GA plane, that means he at least knows what it is at and where it is at so as to avoid a collision. The F-16 pilot might have also tried to get the tail number of the GA plane so he could make a complain of his own.
The blind acceptance of an attorney's version of the story and the hysterical response is the primary reason my AOPA membership is now terminated. My hope is that others follow.
Let's see these guys are in a hot MOA and they are surprised that military aircraft are nearby. They are also dumb enough to think that TCAS is providing them with useful information.
TCAS is designed to provide guidance when encountering aircraft flying civilian flight profiles, not military aircraft climbing 25,000 fpm and pulling 5g .
To expect military pilots preparing for a combat environment to have one ear open to listen to controllers is dumb.. dofus attorney, the MOA is hot
I know absolutely nothing about aviation. But sometimes it takes an outsider's point of view to clear things up.
The issue here is one word: COMMUNICATION.
The Pilatus crew didn't know the F16's intentions. The F16 should have blurted out "maintain course and speed" and the controversy would be over.
I get pissed when the car in front of me doesn't signal a turn. Why? because if I know what he's going to do, I can go around or slow down appropriately.
This shows where your ignorance of aviation makes your comment pointless and irrelevant.
Number one, the aircraft were on different frequencies. Number two, they had different controlling agencies. Number three, the FAA regulations already have established the proper behavior in this or any similar situation.
So no, your "they just need to talk" comment is ignorant.
No communication was necessary if the F16 pilot had followed the rules.
Again, they should get on it and communicate their intentions.
I'm pretty sure the advanced F16 has more than one radio. It doesn't change the fact that communicating between each other would have solved the problem.
I've already explained why direct communications between the aircraft is impractical. Even if the F16 was on the center freq, what would he have said, "I'm buzzing these civilian aircraft in violation of FAA regulations"? This incident has nothing to do with communications and everything to do with improper airmanship.
Huh? Again, even if they had direct communications (which is not typical in aviation for good reason), it would have changed nothing. There's nothing to communicate other than perhaps the intentions of the F16 to perform an illegal maneuver. The civilian aircraft would've still had to take the evasive actions and the incident would've still occurred.
The F16 simply got too close to them, end of story.
Knowing somebody is about to get too close would have been enough for the pilots to prepare and not shit themselves.
Once an accident occurs between military and civilian aircraft means and end to all training in or near populated areas. If you think military pilots have it bad now, wait until a 767 goes down.
The pilots in the civilian planes did not shit themselves. They were rightfully pissed off that another pilot was breaking the rules. The pilot of at least the Premier did know someone was getting close as he had TCAS. So he could see them coming and what they were doing. He took corrective action, which incidentally caused him to bust the Class A at 18000, which I'm sure he would rather not do.
This all boils down to the actions of the F16 pilot breaking FAR 91.111.
You still don't get it. There was nothing to communicate. No amount of communication from the F16 would have changed the outcome one bit if he had still proceeded to buzz these planes as he did. The pilots would have still needed to take the evasive actions to avoid getting dangerously close to another aircraft.
Are you joking? What would you imagine the F16 pilot would say? How about, "Hey guys, I'm about to break part 91.111 by coming up and flying formation 10 feet off your left wing without your consent." Right.
It would not have diminished the danger one bit. They still would have performed their avoidance maneuvers to get away from the moron in the F16.
Or they could have told the F16 to piss off; thereby making him think twice about it. Also everyone in the area would have heard it on the 121.5 channel so when they filed a complaint witnesses could potentially sign on the dotted line.
Wow, you are dense. I was making an analogy about a crimal. While the F16 pilot did not commit a crime (I never said that), he did break the regs and he was reprimanded.
121.5 is a channel for emergencies. It's not a CB channel for hot dog fighter pilots to announce their position and intentions to buzz people. So no, using 21.5 in this case would not only serve no purpose whatsoever, but would also constitute a violation of the regulations.
@skipplet FAR section 91.111: “Operating near other aircraft. (a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard. (b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation. (c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight.”
@justinaurelius Those GA birds probably interrupted training, which will have to be repeated at tax payers expense. Those planes cost thousands of dollars to operate per flight hour. I actually have respect for people in the military, so I would avoided the MAO for my safety and their safety. Lord knows fighter pilots have enough danger to deal with. Those GA pilots are a bunch of selfish idiots.
So what your telling me is you have to stop military to military operations in the area when an NPA flies in, only to start military to civilian aircraft operations? Forgive me if this goes right over my head, but I dont really see why you have to stop your training to run an intercept on the nonparticipating aircraft. I am assuming that it is SOP to knock off when someone else is there...but is it also SOP to intercept the aircraft??? Help me out here cuz...this dont make no sense!
Ok...I get your point...but you still fail to account for why some military people find it necessary to try and intercept the nonparticipating. If you need to knock off intercept tactic when another aircraft is in the moa...why do you stop what your doing and intercept it. The logic is wrong. you can play with eachother if there is an outside aircraft in the moa...but you can play with it? If your sops dictate you knock off when someone is there...why do you mess with the aircraft?
I dont think it has to do with young jocks in hot jets...there is a mentality that this is their airspace somehow. An moa is created to seperate Military jets from Instrument flight rules aircraft only. It is not created as their personal mcdonald's play place. They seem to believe this. I just dont understand why they cant just fly away from non participating aircraft instead of harrassing them...this is joint use airspace...thats a fact. JOINT USE!
OK CFI guy, when we are doing Air-to-Air training, we generally have about 30 minutes of time in the airspace to accomplish our training. Often, we need 35+ miles in-between aircraft to do what we need to do. During this time, we are 1)watching our wingman 2) running our tactic 3) nuggets down inside the aircraft using all our different sensors to accomplish the intercept. When a stranger traffic (ie, you) enter the airspace we need to knock off what we are doing until you are clear.
If that's the case and your time is so limited, why would this pilot have time to go saunter around and harass civilian airplanes? Something doesn't add up.
And I don't care if it's an MOA or not. FAA regulations regarding formation flying and separation still apply. I'm sure this pilot got an ear full from his CO.
And for all the military guys out here who may see my comment and not agree, keep in mind, you have FREE gas paid for by all of us. The GA airplanes in question did not. When you have to pay for the gas, yourself, suddenly altering course to go around a few thousand cubic miles of MOA, doesnt seem like a fiscally responsible thing to do. Especially when, there is nothing wrong with flying in one. "hey look theres and aircraft, lets not go bug it!" is that to hard for you guys, really?
FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I dont know why, when a militart jet sees GA aircraft operating within a MOA, feels he has to go harrass the poor guy! There shouldnt be military aircraft intercepting NON participating aircraft to start with. If you are training in an MOA, why do you need to knock off and go bug the airplane? Is it really that hard to go about your exercise? REALLY? Come on guys, your supposed to be professional!
man that is not cool at all, yes we know he is airforce, but that doesnt mean he can do whatever he wants, besides he made the Premier jet brake the law dont care who you are that is just not cool at all make be brake the law, i'll brake your arm :-)
For the life of me i don't know why the U.S. is the only country to not close it's military training areas to civilian traffic. It's unsafe, and ruins our training when Premier idiot decides to fly through an LFE. and wonders why he's getting rejoined on!!! If he did this outside a MOA i'd be inclined to agree but fore crying out loud dude, get over it. Flying a Premier jet is like driving a bus, not that hard or demanding.
Over KBIH, 2 planes hit my TCAS at 4-6 miles +50. This changed between +30 and -20 until I could see Fighters and pilots. They slowed to my airspeed then took off. The problem arose when TCAS was screaming at me. One of the Fighters maneuvered directly below me. TCAS reported -05, -03, finally -02. I KNEW that they knew I was there due to our formation of three. I reached Joshua Approach a few minutes later and was notified of Military activity, to which I replied 'no kidding'.
Black and white. Thoroughly plan your flight. Active MOA along your route? Choose an alternate route. Competent aircrew work as hard as possible on the ground prior to flight to foresee and deconflict to prevent a potential situation like this from occurring . Personally, I`ve had enough of GA`s attitude in recent years that somehow the military owes THEM. Have we forgotten in 60 short years what the armed services are in place for??
Seriously? Mil ATC here.. so if a VFR plane wants to fly through a MOA and is intercepted by an F-16 it's the GA's fault? I can understand if the F-16 didn't see the a/c but 2 planes reporting the pilot was intentionally joining flight with them that's different. If the F-16 would've coordinated to practice intercept I bet he would have gotten permission and not been reprimanded.
Maybe the AF pilot was trying out for the Thunderbirds? The civilian pilots sounded like they had zero confidence in their own ability to avoid a mid-air incident. TCAS is not intimidating, works best with calm, confident aircrew.
Then he can fly in close formation with another military pilot who is comfortable with such flying (in the case of the Thunderbird "joke"). It has nothing to do with the pilot's confidence in their own abilities, and I doubt it was the TCAS alone that was intimidating. Maybe having an F-16 10 feet off your wing is slightly more nervewracking. Maybe it's the unpredictability of the military pilots who were demonstrating a blatant disregard for the safety of other aircraft in the MOA.
MOAs are ok to fly in, but you want to keep an eye out for military traffic when it's hot. Military aircraft have radar, and can see GA planes. A couple of years ago I flew a Piper Cherokee through the Eureka MOA here in Kansas on my way to Wichita. I was surrounded by a group of A-10s. They were friendly, waved at me, played with us for a little bit, then flew away after awhile. It frightened me at first, but these guys seemed really cool, and it was an experience I will never forget.
YFIP im beginning to think your not a pilot. Why would I fly around an active MOA. I fly with many military pilots, most from the Viet Nam era. I live in one of the most active TFR's in the and MOA's all around. Fort Hood. I dont have a choice but fly in them. What are you talking about, maybe read your sectional??? I dont know what the Bear Den means? I have to fly through them everyday.
For what it's worth, once that F16 pilot realized the aircraft was GA, he should have turned away to avoid it. That may not have stopped the initial TCAS RA but there's no reason to deliberately join on the aircraft for any extended duration. That part of the complaint is valid from the point when the aircraft was identified as GA.
Thats just plain bullshit...you dont accept the risks... and the military has no more right to be there than does the civilian aircraft in an MOA hot or not. That is anybodys airspace and now as Ive said before you most dont even know what a FAR/AIM is....Sir.
I'm a military air traffic controller and a private pilot, so I've got a lot of thought's but have to keep it short. First GA aircraft must know that this can happen in an active MOA. It's part of a private and commercial pilots training on many levels. Sure, it's startling and possibly risky but this type of military activity is what the MOA is designed for. The military would rather the GA aircraft not be there at all but political pressures make these areas accessable to the public.
What is misunderstood is that both pilots are responsible for see and avoid and are both responsible to avoid collision. The GA aircraft must know that aerobatic activity is going on and the military pilot must know that GA aircraft are there. I think it is absurd for the GA aircraft to be able to claim that he is somehow a higher priority in these MOAs. However, it is the military aircraft that is the most manueverable and is in the best position to avoid the other aircraft if he sees it.
It is quite likely that the military aircraft saw the GA aircraft very early in the event to avoid the collision. The response of the GA aircraft was probably not really necessary but I understand their perspective. What military aircraft probably don't take into account generally is the potential reaction of the GA aircraft to TCAS advisories. What is considered safe for the military aircraft could be percieved as a dire situation in the GA aircraft.
That last point in my thesis is probably the most important for the military and is a subject I brief when I get a chance. The military high-performance aircraft must aware of the potential for a GA aircraft to respond abruptly to something they don't understand or have awareness of. The military aircraft must be aware of the effect that TCAS may have on GA aircraft even though they are very comfortable with the closing distance and proximity.
That turboprop aircraft sounded large, having collision avoidance equipment and all. He had to take evasive action, ascending 3,000 ft. Then the air traffic controller wanted him to descend back down immidiately. He probably didn't mean to imply that the aircraft was out of control, he probably just had a lot going on...
And what do you think it's like for military guys who are moving at stupid speed, ascending/descending thousands of feet and trying to coordinate everything safely between multiple A/C and some civilian yahoo with his frekin puddle jumper comes strolling though?
We deal with this crap in our MOA's too...civilians do dumb shit that boggles the mind.
I am not an aviation expert or professional. I am an amatuer aviation enthusiast. So I don't know everything. That being said....
From the recording, it sounded like the civilian aircraft was not INITIALLY in restricted airspace. He was operating legally and safely.
My previous comment was a response to your comment, I was not speculating at who was at fault. You asked why he would need to regain control, you said that he was flying straight and level.
He had to ascend "agressively" to avoid a collision. Then the ATC told him to descend immidiately. So he had his hands kind of full, trying to adhere to the situation.
From the video it sounded like the F-16 pilot was at fault. A complaint was filed and he was repremanded...
He was in an MOA...it is not military airspace....it is just an operating area. I think these guys defending the pilot dont know what they are talking about because it was wreckless, uncalled for , hot shot flying and plain stupid. They forget who pays their bills and who they work for....they were out of their operating altitudes according to the report and the commuter traffic was where he was allowed to be.
Some PR person at Luke told AOPA the guy was reprimanded justo calm people.
GA pilots can fly MOAs, and they're not silly for doing so. It can save a lot of time and fuel on some legs. That said, we shouldn't be freaking if we get a perfectly safe, legitimate intercept from some guy in an F-16. Even though we have TCAS, we need to keep our heads on a swivel.
Military guys can prove they know how to run an intercept without coming within 50 feet of an unsuspecting civillian plane.
i agree, in an F-16 it doesnt take much to make your presence known, so theres no need to come that close.. and flying within 10 feet of another aircraft tends to be reckless even in the best of situations!
i dont disagree with a valid intercept, i do however disagree with irresponsible piloting and operation of an aircraft! Google the name Bud Holland and you'll see what i mean
..log an hour of common sense.. ANY GA pilot in the same situation would not be comfortable with an aircraft that close to them.. its a simple matter of liking to see my family at night! :) because it is inherently NOT THE SAFEST FLYING SITUATION.. that's why top tier pilots are chosen for formation flying!! .. I never said its not possible or even safe but your average GA private pilot is gonna feel a little uptight when a General Dynamics Fighter Aircraft roars up beside him...
If the the F-16 pilot was not in the wrong than why was he reprimanded? He must have been doing something wrong? Also, MOA's are perfectly ok for GA to fly through, they just may not be the safest when active.
wow that podcast is ridiculous, GA pilots should realize that military pilots have every right to attempt intercepts, as stated before it is in the FAR/AIM, but these two morons refused to believe that, it disgusts me how little respect they have for our military pilots, if they were smart they wouldn't fly into MOAs
C420 Sailor had it right, for the rest of you GA know-nothings--until you've gained the credibility to lead 50+ aircraft through hell & back to get to the target, STFU!
you think your the best becuase you along with other military pilots flying the f-16 can pull 9 g's. that is nothing and pathetic. Civilian aerobatic pilots regularly push 8 negatives g's. if you tried that your little face would pop like a grape. STFU!
Fly northeast of the GladBag MOA and stay out of our airspace! If you decide to be an idiot and fly in it while the USAF is conducting student training and get hit, you are the problem. ABQ/PHX & Luke approach don't have time to give idiots point outs while in the MOA, which is why AIM states "Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA..." which is why the controller said "Maintain VFR!" Both clowns could've easily gone around the MOA.
@9GViperDriver That isn't YOUR airspace, asswipe. You forget the military is under CIVILIAN control, therefore CIVILIAN aircraft ALWAYS shall have priority OVER military aircraft EVERY TIME!! That F-16 pilot should have gotten worse than a reprimand, he should've been COURT-MARTIALED AND THROWN OUT OF THE SERVICE!! I would've shot his ass dead for threatening civilian lives. Rule one, civilian lives are sacrosanct.
Flying through a MOA maybe legal, but it sure as hell isn't safe. Most GA operate somewhere between 100-200 kts. Most military aircraft operate between 200-600 kts and faster.
Besides that, if any unscheduled aircraft enters the practice area, we have to cease maneuvering until they leave. Most sorties are between 1-1.5 hours long. So every minute you spend trucking through our areas, that's a minute we don't have to practice what we need to practice.
@pumpiniron74 Yep, you're right. Feel free to truck through a hot MOA risking your life and the life of the other crew and making all aircraft in within a 15 mile radius knock off all maneuvering so you can save a few bucks on gas.
Both of these clowns are some of the stupidest pilots (if you can call them that) I've heard of in 20 years of flying. Check the AIM, Section 3-4-5 boneheads... "b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts.
You are putting yourselves and your passengers at risk flying VFR into the highest density fighter training MOA on the planet... to be continued...
First of let me say that I work for a Navy FA-18 squadron and let me tell you something. WE FLY EVRYDAY!!! Even on some holidays so don't sit there thinking you know it all and think that military pilot don't fly as often a civilian because I bust my ass to keep the jets up so they can go flying.
Quite a reckless thing to do by the F-16 pilot. He should know about the TCAS resolution advisories he causes when approaoching an ac like he did. It is cool to be intercepted if they at least tell you about it before but in this case he fucked up the two civilian ac big time. FAA and ICAO regulations require pilots to follow TCAS advisories. Also, bad idea to fly through an active MOA by the two civilian pilots.
In response to all of the "civilians have more hours than military pilots" posters---quality versus quantity. Every hour flown is spent training or qualifying. They don't just bore holes in the sky or fly the pattern 20 times like civilian types do.
No understanding of the FAR/AIM? They don't know aerodynamics? Are you kidding me? You, sir, are showing your complete ignorance of military aviation right there.
Until you've flown in the military, promptly STFU.
Ive been a commercial rated pilot for 25 years. While I would not appreciate being bounced, I also do not fly through hot MOA's without talking to the controlling agency. Yest it's legal to fly through a hot MOA but is it smart to do so without communicating?.
Guess what typical civilian pilots feeling inferior to military combat pilots and when they felt the chance to take control of a situation and did so to the fullest, do you really think that viper pilot put anybody at danger, the drastic moves the civilian aircraft did were more dangerous than a loose formation to get a visual, Our USAF pilot are highly trained and protect idiot civilians that get a rush flying through military airspace grow some nut, any man would love to fly with a f-16 =)
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
dude military pilots hardly fly as many hours a civilian would, and that's a fact the viper driver probaly has no more than 1000 hours tt and probably less in f-16, where as the the civial guys fly constantly and more often then just every once in a while "dog fighting flights" thus making the premier pilot more qualified and more current i dont care who you are i would've have done the same thing as the premier pilot
Right, because flying straight and level, Pt A to Pt B, with the autopilot on makes you more qualified. That's admin, nothing more. And I can guarantee you we fly more than just once in a while "dog fighting flights".
It takes a ton more skill to fly a large heavy aircraft out of CG longitudal or laterally then to cruise around with an exrta 30 tons of thrust in non-combat situations. ive seen a bunch of hot shot MIL Pies have to forget everything theyve learned to keep an aircraft out of the dirt. Just had one dig in a few months back, lucky he lived. Settled with power. Im a vet so no anti mil comments please. AV only.
What? Military pilots barely get enough time in to understand dangers and aerodynamics. I am a big military advocate and salute or brave men and women. But they are mission oriented, weapons trained, have no understanding or minimal understanding of the FAR/AIM, probably don't care and make horrible flight instructors and commercial pilots unless retrained. I love what they do and what they represent. In civilian aviation they tend to screw things up. respectfully.
I dont need to log time to watch more than once an ex-military pilot put a helicopter in the dirt nearly killing themself due to settling with power and just piss poor judgement. I completely understand what they are capable of and what they cant do! So back at the disrespect you just showed me son you can respectfully STFU! Really YES!
I understand the concern with the TCAS "alerts", but once you see the F-16 crusin' off your wing, what's all the "mad" about? Some folks are just to rigid.
These idiots should not have been in a MOA in the first place if they don't want to come in contact with Military Aircraft, and whoever let them fly through A MOA during a training sortie is a dumbass.
You don't need permission to fly in a MOA. It's nice to know if it's active (so you can better avoid military aircraft), but it's not prohibited airspace.
Nobody "lets" anyone fly through a MOA, it's not an action that requires permission--you just simply fly through it. Contacting the controlling agency beforehand to find out if it's active however is a WISE practice.
No permission required to fly through an MOA. There are many of them... and it would be ridiculus to fly around them all. Calling is benificial but not required.
Had I been at the controls of either small business aircraft involved in this episode, I would have been angry too.
I don't imagine the group that chartered the flights were impressed to see an F-16 pulling maneuvers around the aircraft. Be it out of the pilots hands or not, the passenger group may not see it that way. They may consider the flight planning negligent, or take the pilots skills into question for being in the situation.
I'd of been waiting to file my report too! No question.
Just because it is legal to fly VFR direct through a MOA, doesn't mean it is intelligent. There is a common misconception that just because we have radars, we have global SA and can see anything. Not true, if I'm heads out BFMing, I'm probably not sanitizing with my radar. We're out there protecting your right to be an asshole, don't exercise it by recklessly flying through MOA's ... it's stupid and a recipe for a mid-air. Spend the extra five minutes planning and fly over/under/around MOA's.
This guy is such a whuzzy. A plane gets within 1.5 miles and he starts peeing his panties, and crying to ATC for comfort. He probably went to Riddle....
An Airmiss is when two aircraft converge within 10 nautical miles horizontally or 1000 feet vertically. Civil pilots are NOT expecting anything to be that close.
I fly in this moa (last flight on Aug 27 2008) as an instructor in F16s. If you fly in a MOA, you MAY have a close pass. We get point outs from our ATC sometimes. Oh, by the way, kind of hard to "Clear" below you while pulling 7+ Gs fighting another aircraft. I think its not so smart to have both the F16s and other aircraft trying to do see and avoid when in this situation. The smartest thing to do would; make it a restricted area, allow civilian traffic through when we are not training.
Feel free to truck into an active MOA with the hunch that they are always level VFR, 100% see and aviod, and are talking to you on VHF. Did those guys conduct an intercept- who knows. Regardless, I'll yeild a few bucks in gas (you are going to loose anyways) going to vegas, claiming loss of rights, and sounding like a tool on the radio to everyone here. BTW on weekends these MOAs are cold;ATC routes IFR traffic through them routinely. A socialist government would make them restricted areas.
If this civilian pilot gets intercepted for real one day and instead of using his eyes and common sense he decides to respond to the inappropriate TCAS advice he may well get his arse shot down.
Agreed that he shouldn't have freaked out... I would have tipped my wing and waved to him... But my point is, VFR is allowed to be there and has every right to be. Therefore that freedom shall not be taken away. People don't realize that the more they agree with taking away a certain freedom, the more other freedoms will go behind it, and eventually something that THEY think shall remain free. It's a matter of principle, especially in our time where society is in a shift toward socialism.
I whole heartedly agree that MOAs are joint use airspace, but I don't agree with the "my right to do so" overriding safety of flight mentality.
This isn't a case of "freedom" it's a case of poor airmanship on behalf of ALL the pilots involved and to some extent the controllers as well. Each party here could have done something better in this situation.
"AOPA has long been the champion of bush-league pilots; another example. Frankly that is why I cancelled my membership several years ago. Prudent professionals file, not fly VFR through a MOA. I have to side with the F-16's here."
The FAA says you can fly VFR thru MOA's, why would you want to make laws more restrictive? This kind of mentality will easily allow the government to slip us into fascism. Re-evaluate your thought process.
AOPA has long been the champion of bush-league pilots; another example. Frankly that is why I cancelled my membership several years ago. Prudent professionals file, not fly VFR through a MOA. I have to side with the F-16's here.
Craig975, do you have some kind of unlimited flying budget? Me, and many other general aviation aircraft owners and operators fly with a single engine and "on a budget". Its impractical to go around bagdad and gladden, both in terms of time, cost, and safety. Example:PHX->HND, a prudent professional will follow interstate 93 through the MOAs and not north of them over the higher terrain with no road. Your response reflects you are unfarmillar with the situation regarding smaller aircraft.
1.) Do your best to avoid active MOA's if not on an IFR clearance. If you decide to hazard through, guess what? You might just see military jets doing what it is they do in MOA's...
2.) Don't be a c*ckless spaz on the radio claiming the viper closed to within 10'....the Luke tapes show that to be 100% B.S.
3.) Don't assume the viper is deliberately doing maneuvers to "mess with you". Go choke yourself. Take a puff from your inhaler, grab the yoke, and "get the plane under control". Sad.
I'm a center controller who works several MOAs in the central U.S. I have seen these sorts of "intercepts" run on VFR targets in MOAs before.
In fact years ago one F16 pilot lost his head and left the MOA and got too close to an IFR aircraft resulting in a pilot deviation for the F16 pilot.
If these are "legitimate" intercepts as some claim here, I'd love to hear why the Air Force denies that their pilots do such things (or otherwise have the authority to do such things).
Do any of you who think the military can claim for themselves such large chunks of airspace, ever have to go hundred[s] of miles out of the way to avoid MOAs? If the answer was yes (obviously, it's not) you may think differently.
Stay out of Active MOA's. That Viper didnt even get within 500 ft of that PC12. 20 Feet my ass. In the end if we collide we all loose. Now lets see. 1 4 ship of F-16 aborted training. 1.3 x 8000 per jet = 41600K of tax payer money because some idiot wouldnt follow what the is recommended and stay out of an active MOA.
It seems the general attitude of "sharing" MOAs overrides the entire point of a MOA": to let pilots know where exactly the military is conducting training. It's a much safer way of doing things than if we didn't have them. To exercise one's "right" to enter a MOA either knowing or not knowing it is active is simple reckless on the GA pilot's behalf. The majority of my fellow military pilots and I are very professional and we go out of our way to coexist safely with our GA counter parts.
I'd concur that the vast majority of military (and GA) pilots are responsible and professional. That said, I don't get your point about not entering MOAs even if we know they are inactive. How is it reckless to enter airspace that isn't actively being used in its MOA role? Also, as others have said, even many active MOAs allow for VFR operations.
There is so much restricted airspace these days - I think we can all agree it is a challenge (and a shame).
I completely agree with you on the point of flying through an inactive MOA, but I specifically said active and was referring to those that enter knowing they are active and those that fly through them completely ignorant to the MOA status.
I have no problems with pilots that take the time to check on the status of MOAs and make sound judgment based on what they find.
Ok Contrail I had misread your comment of "not knowing it is active" as if you meant knowing it is inactive. Poor, quick read by me.
Overall, I just hope we have fewer restricted airspace locations in the future. It has drastically altered the freedom of flight. Even the fighter-jockies will someday be out of the military and may want to continue to enjoy flying privately.
The F16 driver needs to get fired...no question about it! If he were a civilian pilot like the rest of us flying a VLJ or an L-39 the FAA would pull his ticket is 2 seconds flat. Why should he get a slap on the wrist for such a gross viloation?!?
"A gross violation"? Flying unannounced through the middle of an intercept training mission in a MILITARY Operating Area is the cause of this incident. It's a good thing the Viper pilots saw the intruders in time to knock off their training. A visual ID coming no closer than 500 feet (radar tapes show) is a perfectly normal maneuver. I can on fault the F-16 pilot for not turning off his Mode 3/C to avoid setting off the TCAS
MOAs are shared airspace between the military and the citizenry. The PEOPLE in the USA own the airspace, not the government. What is the "freedom" these guys purport to be defending? Freedom to fly over the country?
Both a blessing and a curse! Thank goodness a desaster had been avoided by executive GA VIP Pilot's ;-))
Climbontrack 4 months ago
The pilots flying through the MOA are idiots and sound like douchebags on the radio. "Let me get the airplane under control" HAHA! He's in a 3k/min climb and he considers that out of control.
skipplet 4 months ago
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AirplaneRider 9 months ago
@jaybird42o You seem to have no clue about what you're talking about. Air Force regulations, or any organization (such as airline SOP's) are superceded by the FAR's. So anyone can make up their own little rules as long as they don't contradict the FAA's rules. It even states in the Air Force regulations that any deviation from the federal rules must receive an exception from the FAA. You should learn more about the subject on which you speak before you publicly make a fool out of yourself.
AirplaneRider 9 months ago
@jaybird42o Ah sorry, no, you're wrong.
AirplaneRider 9 months ago
Ok, I've read all the comments. But, the civ pilots whined like a bitch on the radio never the less. Roll the tape and lets hear him shit his pants again :) Yes, I've had a face full of F-18 in R-2508. Just keep chugging along and everything will be fine.
torch39 10 months ago
The civilian pilot needs to stop being a baby and enjoy the flyby, you in there airspace.
Nappi91 11 months ago
Looking at some of these comments make me wish I was a pilot.
oryandymackie95 1 year ago
Just because you CAN legally fly through an active MOA, does not mean you should. You do realize this area is set aside for military pilots to train, hopefully WITHOUT having to worry about a civillian bugsmasher suddenly appearing in their windshield? Entering an active MOA of your own accord, well, you assume the risk. Not incumbent upon the F-16 to have to avoid you.
JPH1786 1 year ago
@JPH1786 Knucklehead. The civilian pilots were flying 100% legal. The F16 pilot made an agressive approach and violated clearances. He forced the civilian pilots to violate the MOA airspace when they had to climb above 19K to avoid the F16. The F16 pilot was repremanded which normally would have effectively ended his career by killing promotion. Also this reprimand would follow him if he trys tobecome an airline pilot.
Robbob9933 11 months ago
@Robbob9933 Violated clearances? Bullshit. He was well clear. Period. GA Pilot freaked out, and shouldn't have been flying through an active MOA in the first place where jets are regularly flying at 500+ knots.
skipplet 10 months ago
@skipplet Fince the FAA did nothing to the civilian pilots and the Air Force repremanded the AF pilot, it is enough to say that the AF pilot was 100% in the wrong. The fact that the AF added training instructions to not go off and fuck with civilian planes passing through is more telling about how serious the AF took it.
Robbob9933 10 months ago
@JPH1786 Also, if you have any knowledge of airspace in Arizona, Nevada, and southern California, you are har pressed to fly and not interact with MOAs as there are at least six major military air facilities with constant operations.
Robbob9933 11 months ago
@Robbob9933 Sir, I am civillian pilot as well as a military aviator. I know what kinds of activities we take part in in MOAs, and they are NOT conducive to mixing with civillian aviation. When I fly on the civillian side, I am fully aware what MOAs are hot and which are cold, and do everything to avoid flying through them. Prior planning will prevent you from having to be there, and greatly enhance both your safety and those of the military pilots training there.
JPH1786 11 months ago
@Robbob9933 I am also familiar with the Arizona/Nevada SUAs, and while I realize they are very extensive, they are not so large as to be wholey unavoidable. I again stress that while it's fully legal for your $100 dollar hamburger runner to go busting through a MOA, it's probably not in the best interest of his continued welfare, when closure speeds between his aircraft and an F-16 or something similar could top 800 knots.
JPH1786 11 months ago
Look fighter pilots get bored and on top of that your in a moa. Wth is wrong with any military aircraft forming up to u or just wanting to show off they have onboard radar there not going to hit you unless it's with a missle. Should have just keep crusing and gave him the finger.
jb42682 1 year ago
@jb42682 Because every pilot has the skills to fly in close formation with a fighter jet. Formation flying without proper training and radio communication with the other pilot is suicidal.
rubber314chicken 1 year ago
@rubber314chicken Yeah... you obviously haven't ever flown formation.
skipplet 10 months ago
The F-16 Pilot was probably feeling a little bold and flight happy. A good repremand from his superiors would be good for disipline regardless of who was at fault.
pspboy7 1 year ago
How can you "legally" fly through an "active" MAO? F-16s won't be getting 100% SA with radar. The APG-68 can scan only so much airspace at a time. F-16 pilots risk their lives every time they go up, and the nerve of these GA pilots to say what they say is pretty lame.
discofishing 1 year ago
i know the tcas is annoying but man it would be so cool to be intercepted.
1Gaumer 1 year ago
civilian aircraft have priority in MOAs, hot or not. if the are is restricted, thats different. the f16 pilot should've been grounded for good.
giannigiorgio2 1 year ago
he just felt the need - the need for speed.
dean0waterz 1 year ago 2
It was a hot MOA. GA pilot has no room to complain. He chose to fly through an MOA and if he didn't contact the local FSS or look on his sectional chart to find out the time of MOA use, that's his fault.
Granted the F16 pilot probably wasn't in his jurisdiction to intercept a plane that isn't committing an offense and without orders but it is a hot MOA.
DC5Pro 1 year ago
Former Navy fighter pilot here. The GA plane was talking to the controlling agency. A military aircraft would be talking talking to the same agency if he were IFR, and it's obvious that he was not - so we can assume he was VFR. There is no such thing as a "HOT" MOA. What becomes "HOT" are the ranges and MTRs (military training routes) - and that only means something to those of us in the military who are de-conflicting from each other. A Navy pilot would have been FENABed for this.
TheMarshallEvans 1 year ago
@TheMarshallEvans Maybe the Navy does it differently, but in the Air Force, you are always talking to an area monitor when out in the MOA. Fuyrther, the area monitor is almost always the same controlling frequency (RAPCON/Center) of the airspace around the MOA. And yes, MOAs can in fact be hot and cold.
skipplet 10 months ago
It's common sense not to fly through a hot MOA...
Starwarsfansitecrs 1 year ago
Awesome! How come cool stuff like this dosn't happen to me when I'm out flying? If an F-16 pulled up on my wing just to say hi....., I'd be buying the pilots drinks, not filing complaints.
thenewarea51 1 year ago
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gnsexe 2 years ago
With military pilots this reckless and incompetent "protecting" us, who needs enemies?
Mxsmanic 2 years ago
@Mxsmanic you have to remember Luke AFB is where F-16 pilots are trained! This includes F-16 users from other countries, which have different rules and regulations for their own airspace. That pilot might have been a 22 year old 2nd LT. Either way, if the F-16 is in formation with a GA plane, that means he at least knows what it is at and where it is at so as to avoid a collision. The F-16 pilot might have also tried to get the tail number of the GA plane so he could make a complain of his own.
discofishing 1 year ago
The blind acceptance of an attorney's version of the story and the hysterical response is the primary reason my AOPA membership is now terminated. My hope is that others follow.
fly4vino 2 years ago
@fly4vino yeah, I heard one of the pilots was an attorney. This makes sense.
discofishing 1 year ago
Let's see these guys are in a hot MOA and they are surprised that military aircraft are nearby. They are also dumb enough to think that TCAS is providing them with useful information.
TCAS is designed to provide guidance when encountering aircraft flying civilian flight profiles, not military aircraft climbing 25,000 fpm and pulling 5g .
To expect military pilots preparing for a combat environment to have one ear open to listen to controllers is dumb.. dofus attorney, the MOA is hot
fly4vino 2 years ago
I know absolutely nothing about aviation. But sometimes it takes an outsider's point of view to clear things up.
The issue here is one word: COMMUNICATION.
The Pilatus crew didn't know the F16's intentions. The F16 should have blurted out "maintain course and speed" and the controversy would be over.
I get pissed when the car in front of me doesn't signal a turn. Why? because if I know what he's going to do, I can go around or slow down appropriately.
Communicate, people.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
It shows that you know nothing about aviation. Why do people feel the need to comment on subjects that they know nothing about?
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
I admitted as much.
Communication is key. In everything, from aviation to business, to getting laid.
Communication between the two aircraft would have solved everything.
So fuck you.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
This shows where your ignorance of aviation makes your comment pointless and irrelevant.
Number one, the aircraft were on different frequencies. Number two, they had different controlling agencies. Number three, the FAA regulations already have established the proper behavior in this or any similar situation.
So no, your "they just need to talk" comment is ignorant.
No communication was necessary if the F16 pilot had followed the rules.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
121.5?
justinaurelius 2 years ago
What about it? Not all pilots monitor 21.5. Many aircraft don't have two radios, some have none.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
Again, they should get on it and communicate their intentions.
I'm pretty sure the advanced F16 has more than one radio. It doesn't change the fact that communicating between each other would have solved the problem.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
I've already explained why direct communications between the aircraft is impractical. Even if the F16 was on the center freq, what would he have said, "I'm buzzing these civilian aircraft in violation of FAA regulations"? This incident has nothing to do with communications and everything to do with improper airmanship.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
I understood your explanation.
I said there was a failure in communication - you can cite all the reasons you want. If its impractical - make it practical.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
Huh? Again, even if they had direct communications (which is not typical in aviation for good reason), it would have changed nothing. There's nothing to communicate other than perhaps the intentions of the F16 to perform an illegal maneuver. The civilian aircraft would've still had to take the evasive actions and the incident would've still occurred.
The F16 simply got too close to them, end of story.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
Knowing somebody is about to get too close would have been enough for the pilots to prepare and not shit themselves.
Once an accident occurs between military and civilian aircraft means and end to all training in or near populated areas. If you think military pilots have it bad now, wait until a 767 goes down.
Then the problem is you can't sue the military.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
The pilots in the civilian planes did not shit themselves. They were rightfully pissed off that another pilot was breaking the rules. The pilot of at least the Premier did know someone was getting close as he had TCAS. So he could see them coming and what they were doing. He took corrective action, which incidentally caused him to bust the Class A at 18000, which I'm sure he would rather not do.
This all boils down to the actions of the F16 pilot breaking FAR 91.111.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
and for not communicating.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
You still don't get it. There was nothing to communicate. No amount of communication from the F16 would have changed the outcome one bit if he had still proceeded to buzz these planes as he did. The pilots would have still needed to take the evasive actions to avoid getting dangerously close to another aircraft.
You are clearly out of your depth here.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
I get it.
Those pilots were scared and surprised - two things that make up accidents. Communication would have taken away the surprise.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
Are you joking? What would you imagine the F16 pilot would say? How about, "Hey guys, I'm about to break part 91.111 by coming up and flying formation 10 feet off your left wing without your consent." Right.
It would not have diminished the danger one bit. They still would have performed their avoidance maneuvers to get away from the moron in the F16.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
Or they could have told the F16 to piss off; thereby making him think twice about it. Also everyone in the area would have heard it on the 121.5 channel so when they filed a complaint witnesses could potentially sign on the dotted line.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
I give up. What you are proposing is about as absurd as expecting criminals to sign a confession before they commit a crime.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
No charges were filed, therefore there was no crime.
You have to understand the military is the same as the police, a good 'ol boys club - they watch out for each other.
Hence broadcasting on the 121.5 all over Creation for everyone to hear is always a good idea.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
Wow, you are dense. I was making an analogy about a crimal. While the F16 pilot did not commit a crime (I never said that), he did break the regs and he was reprimanded.
121.5 is a channel for emergencies. It's not a CB channel for hot dog fighter pilots to announce their position and intentions to buzz people. So no, using 21.5 in this case would not only serve no purpose whatsoever, but would also constitute a violation of the regulations.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
Or he could be listening.
The pilots could bitch and moan he's getting too close.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
@AirplaneRider Please cite the reg he violated, oh master of the publications.
skipplet 10 months ago
@skipplet FAR section 91.111: “Operating near other aircraft. (a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard. (b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation. (c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight.”
AirplaneRider 10 months ago
@justinaurelius Those GA birds probably interrupted training, which will have to be repeated at tax payers expense. Those planes cost thousands of dollars to operate per flight hour. I actually have respect for people in the military, so I would avoided the MAO for my safety and their safety. Lord knows fighter pilots have enough danger to deal with. Those GA pilots are a bunch of selfish idiots.
discofishing 1 year ago
@AirplaneRider morons don't fly F-16s you friggin clown!
discofishing 1 year ago
@discofishing Sure they do. I've known plenty of pilots who are morons in my time in the military. Obviously you have no first hand experience.
AirplaneRider 1 year ago
These GA pilot's sound like total babies. Quit complaining, and don't fly through a MOA when it's hot.
And for the record, the vipers were no where as near as the GA aircraft said they were
drumkitwes 2 years ago
So what your telling me is you have to stop military to military operations in the area when an NPA flies in, only to start military to civilian aircraft operations? Forgive me if this goes right over my head, but I dont really see why you have to stop your training to run an intercept on the nonparticipating aircraft. I am assuming that it is SOP to knock off when someone else is there...but is it also SOP to intercept the aircraft??? Help me out here cuz...this dont make no sense!
CFIguy25 2 years ago
Ok...I get your point...but you still fail to account for why some military people find it necessary to try and intercept the nonparticipating. If you need to knock off intercept tactic when another aircraft is in the moa...why do you stop what your doing and intercept it. The logic is wrong. you can play with eachother if there is an outside aircraft in the moa...but you can play with it? If your sops dictate you knock off when someone is there...why do you mess with the aircraft?
CFIguy25 2 years ago
I dont think it has to do with young jocks in hot jets...there is a mentality that this is their airspace somehow. An moa is created to seperate Military jets from Instrument flight rules aircraft only. It is not created as their personal mcdonald's play place. They seem to believe this. I just dont understand why they cant just fly away from non participating aircraft instead of harrassing them...this is joint use airspace...thats a fact. JOINT USE!
CFIguy25 2 years ago
OK CFI guy, when we are doing Air-to-Air training, we generally have about 30 minutes of time in the airspace to accomplish our training. Often, we need 35+ miles in-between aircraft to do what we need to do. During this time, we are 1)watching our wingman 2) running our tactic 3) nuggets down inside the aircraft using all our different sensors to accomplish the intercept. When a stranger traffic (ie, you) enter the airspace we need to knock off what we are doing until you are clear.
F16Vip3r 2 years ago
If that's the case and your time is so limited, why would this pilot have time to go saunter around and harass civilian airplanes? Something doesn't add up.
And I don't care if it's an MOA or not. FAA regulations regarding formation flying and separation still apply. I'm sure this pilot got an ear full from his CO.
AirplaneRider 2 years ago
This is what you get when these young jocks are given the control of an aircraft.
nawitus 2 years ago
And for all the military guys out here who may see my comment and not agree, keep in mind, you have FREE gas paid for by all of us. The GA airplanes in question did not. When you have to pay for the gas, yourself, suddenly altering course to go around a few thousand cubic miles of MOA, doesnt seem like a fiscally responsible thing to do. Especially when, there is nothing wrong with flying in one. "hey look theres and aircraft, lets not go bug it!" is that to hard for you guys, really?
CFIguy25 2 years ago
FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I dont know why, when a militart jet sees GA aircraft operating within a MOA, feels he has to go harrass the poor guy! There shouldnt be military aircraft intercepting NON participating aircraft to start with. If you are training in an MOA, why do you need to knock off and go bug the airplane? Is it really that hard to go about your exercise? REALLY? Come on guys, your supposed to be professional!
CFIguy25 2 years ago
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afviper 2 years ago
whats MOA?
televisionremote 2 years ago
military operations area, says in description. =]
mrhaydon 2 years ago 5
man that is not cool at all, yes we know he is airforce, but that doesnt mean he can do whatever he wants, besides he made the Premier jet brake the law dont care who you are that is just not cool at all make be brake the law, i'll brake your arm :-)
N9602FL 2 years ago
For the life of me i don't know why the U.S. is the only country to not close it's military training areas to civilian traffic. It's unsafe, and ruins our training when Premier idiot decides to fly through an LFE. and wonders why he's getting rejoined on!!! If he did this outside a MOA i'd be inclined to agree but fore crying out loud dude, get over it. Flying a Premier jet is like driving a bus, not that hard or demanding.
ArFoce 2 years ago
Over KBIH, 2 planes hit my TCAS at 4-6 miles +50. This changed between +30 and -20 until I could see Fighters and pilots. They slowed to my airspeed then took off. The problem arose when TCAS was screaming at me. One of the Fighters maneuvered directly below me. TCAS reported -05, -03, finally -02. I KNEW that they knew I was there due to our formation of three. I reached Joshua Approach a few minutes later and was notified of Military activity, to which I replied 'no kidding'.
kikrw 2 years ago
Some military guys need their balls hanging from their ears.
madisonelectronic 2 years ago
Black and white. Thoroughly plan your flight. Active MOA along your route? Choose an alternate route. Competent aircrew work as hard as possible on the ground prior to flight to foresee and deconflict to prevent a potential situation like this from occurring . Personally, I`ve had enough of GA`s attitude in recent years that somehow the military owes THEM. Have we forgotten in 60 short years what the armed services are in place for??
F110GE129VIPER 2 years ago
Seriously? Mil ATC here.. so if a VFR plane wants to fly through a MOA and is intercepted by an F-16 it's the GA's fault? I can understand if the F-16 didn't see the a/c but 2 planes reporting the pilot was intentionally joining flight with them that's different. If the F-16 would've coordinated to practice intercept I bet he would have gotten permission and not been reprimanded.
svtcobra281 2 years ago
Maybe the AF pilot was trying out for the Thunderbirds? The civilian pilots sounded like they had zero confidence in their own ability to avoid a mid-air incident. TCAS is not intimidating, works best with calm, confident aircrew.
Tampaslice 2 years ago
Then he can fly in close formation with another military pilot who is comfortable with such flying (in the case of the Thunderbird "joke"). It has nothing to do with the pilot's confidence in their own abilities, and I doubt it was the TCAS alone that was intimidating. Maybe having an F-16 10 feet off your wing is slightly more nervewracking. Maybe it's the unpredictability of the military pilots who were demonstrating a blatant disregard for the safety of other aircraft in the MOA.
iraqijew 2 years ago
There shouldn't be other aircraft in the MOA to start with!
ArFoce 2 years ago
MOAs are ok to fly in, but you want to keep an eye out for military traffic when it's hot. Military aircraft have radar, and can see GA planes. A couple of years ago I flew a Piper Cherokee through the Eureka MOA here in Kansas on my way to Wichita. I was surrounded by a group of A-10s. They were friendly, waved at me, played with us for a little bit, then flew away after awhile. It frightened me at first, but these guys seemed really cool, and it was an experience I will never forget.
despain76 2 years ago 10
YFIP im beginning to think your not a pilot. Why would I fly around an active MOA. I fly with many military pilots, most from the Viet Nam era. I live in one of the most active TFR's in the and MOA's all around. Fort Hood. I dont have a choice but fly in them. What are you talking about, maybe read your sectional??? I dont know what the Bear Den means? I have to fly through them everyday.
helobelow 2 years ago
helobelow, what report are you referring to, I'd like to read it.
quandumphone 2 years ago
The incident report the civilian pilot filed with the FAA.
helobelow 2 years ago
For what it's worth, once that F16 pilot realized the aircraft was GA, he should have turned away to avoid it. That may not have stopped the initial TCAS RA but there's no reason to deliberately join on the aircraft for any extended duration. That part of the complaint is valid from the point when the aircraft was identified as GA.
quandumphone 2 years ago
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YFIP 2 years ago
Thats just plain bullshit...you dont accept the risks... and the military has no more right to be there than does the civilian aircraft in an MOA hot or not. That is anybodys airspace and now as Ive said before you most dont even know what a FAR/AIM is....Sir.
helobelow 2 years ago 2
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YFIP 2 years ago
boy the premier jet pilot sounds like a crying girl
fishkillerchris 2 years ago 2
I'm a military air traffic controller and a private pilot, so I've got a lot of thought's but have to keep it short. First GA aircraft must know that this can happen in an active MOA. It's part of a private and commercial pilots training on many levels. Sure, it's startling and possibly risky but this type of military activity is what the MOA is designed for. The military would rather the GA aircraft not be there at all but political pressures make these areas accessable to the public.
quandumphone 2 years ago
What is misunderstood is that both pilots are responsible for see and avoid and are both responsible to avoid collision. The GA aircraft must know that aerobatic activity is going on and the military pilot must know that GA aircraft are there. I think it is absurd for the GA aircraft to be able to claim that he is somehow a higher priority in these MOAs. However, it is the military aircraft that is the most manueverable and is in the best position to avoid the other aircraft if he sees it.
quandumphone 2 years ago
It is quite likely that the military aircraft saw the GA aircraft very early in the event to avoid the collision. The response of the GA aircraft was probably not really necessary but I understand their perspective. What military aircraft probably don't take into account generally is the potential reaction of the GA aircraft to TCAS advisories. What is considered safe for the military aircraft could be percieved as a dire situation in the GA aircraft.
quandumphone 2 years ago
That last point in my thesis is probably the most important for the military and is a subject I brief when I get a chance. The military high-performance aircraft must aware of the potential for a GA aircraft to respond abruptly to something they don't understand or have awareness of. The military aircraft must be aware of the effect that TCAS may have on GA aircraft even though they are very comfortable with the closing distance and proximity.
quandumphone 2 years ago
HA! "let me get the airplane under control here"....under control from what? Straight and f*cking level? Seriously.
Parubhi 3 years ago
That turboprop aircraft sounded large, having collision avoidance equipment and all. He had to take evasive action, ascending 3,000 ft. Then the air traffic controller wanted him to descend back down immidiately. He probably didn't mean to imply that the aircraft was out of control, he probably just had a lot going on...
thefullmonte03 3 years ago
And what do you think it's like for military guys who are moving at stupid speed, ascending/descending thousands of feet and trying to coordinate everything safely between multiple A/C and some civilian yahoo with his frekin puddle jumper comes strolling though?
We deal with this crap in our MOA's too...civilians do dumb shit that boggles the mind.
Parubhi 3 years ago
I am not an aviation expert or professional. I am an amatuer aviation enthusiast. So I don't know everything. That being said....
From the recording, it sounded like the civilian aircraft was not INITIALLY in restricted airspace. He was operating legally and safely.
My previous comment was a response to your comment, I was not speculating at who was at fault. You asked why he would need to regain control, you said that he was flying straight and level.
thefullmonte03 3 years ago
It doesn't sound as though he was.
He had to ascend "agressively" to avoid a collision. Then the ATC told him to descend immidiately. So he had his hands kind of full, trying to adhere to the situation.
From the video it sounded like the F-16 pilot was at fault. A complaint was filed and he was repremanded...
thefullmonte03 3 years ago
He was in an MOA...it is not military airspace....it is just an operating area. I think these guys defending the pilot dont know what they are talking about because it was wreckless, uncalled for , hot shot flying and plain stupid. They forget who pays their bills and who they work for....they were out of their operating altitudes according to the report and the commuter traffic was where he was allowed to be.
helobelow 2 years ago
Yeah, I listened to it again, the civilian pilot just meant he didn't have free hands to take down a phone number...
thefullmonte03 3 years ago
Some PR person at Luke told AOPA the guy was reprimanded justo calm people.
GA pilots can fly MOAs, and they're not silly for doing so. It can save a lot of time and fuel on some legs. That said, we shouldn't be freaking if we get a perfectly safe, legitimate intercept from some guy in an F-16. Even though we have TCAS, we need to keep our heads on a swivel.
Military guys can prove they know how to run an intercept without coming within 50 feet of an unsuspecting civillian plane.
sisserou32 3 years ago
i agree, in an F-16 it doesnt take much to make your presence known, so theres no need to come that close.. and flying within 10 feet of another aircraft tends to be reckless even in the best of situations!
i dont disagree with a valid intercept, i do however disagree with irresponsible piloting and operation of an aircraft! Google the name Bud Holland and you'll see what i mean
theendcredits 2 years ago
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YFIP 2 years ago
..log an hour of common sense.. ANY GA pilot in the same situation would not be comfortable with an aircraft that close to them.. its a simple matter of liking to see my family at night! :) because it is inherently NOT THE SAFEST FLYING SITUATION.. that's why top tier pilots are chosen for formation flying!! .. I never said its not possible or even safe but your average GA private pilot is gonna feel a little uptight when a General Dynamics Fighter Aircraft roars up beside him...
theendcredits 2 years ago
If the the F-16 pilot was not in the wrong than why was he reprimanded? He must have been doing something wrong? Also, MOA's are perfectly ok for GA to fly through, they just may not be the safest when active.
flyindeuces 3 years ago
wow that podcast is ridiculous, GA pilots should realize that military pilots have every right to attempt intercepts, as stated before it is in the FAR/AIM, but these two morons refused to believe that, it disgusts me how little respect they have for our military pilots, if they were smart they wouldn't fly into MOAs
afviper 3 years ago
That pilot (viper) was grounded.
av8orguy 3 years ago 2
C420 Sailor had it right, for the rest of you GA know-nothings--until you've gained the credibility to lead 50+ aircraft through hell & back to get to the target, STFU!
9GViperDriver 3 years ago
You sir, are a douche. you think that you are a god of a pilot just becuase u fly an f-16. you need to shut the fuck up and step back in line
lomcevak540 3 years ago 2
you think your the best becuase you along with other military pilots flying the f-16 can pull 9 g's. that is nothing and pathetic. Civilian aerobatic pilots regularly push 8 negatives g's. if you tried that your little face would pop like a grape. STFU!
lomcevak540 3 years ago
Fly northeast of the GladBag MOA and stay out of our airspace! If you decide to be an idiot and fly in it while the USAF is conducting student training and get hit, you are the problem. ABQ/PHX & Luke approach don't have time to give idiots point outs while in the MOA, which is why AIM states "Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA..." which is why the controller said "Maintain VFR!" Both clowns could've easily gone around the MOA.
9GViperDriver 3 years ago
@9GViperDriver That isn't YOUR airspace, asswipe. You forget the military is under CIVILIAN control, therefore CIVILIAN aircraft ALWAYS shall have priority OVER military aircraft EVERY TIME!! That F-16 pilot should have gotten worse than a reprimand, he should've been COURT-MARTIALED AND THROWN OUT OF THE SERVICE!! I would've shot his ass dead for threatening civilian lives. Rule one, civilian lives are sacrosanct.
RogueKnight12866 5 months ago
@RogueKnight12866
Flying through a MOA maybe legal, but it sure as hell isn't safe. Most GA operate somewhere between 100-200 kts. Most military aircraft operate between 200-600 kts and faster.
Besides that, if any unscheduled aircraft enters the practice area, we have to cease maneuvering until they leave. Most sorties are between 1-1.5 hours long. So every minute you spend trucking through our areas, that's a minute we don't have to practice what we need to practice.
skipplet 4 months ago
@skipplet The point is, this airspace does not belong to the military whether it's hot or cold. You share it with civilians, like it or not.
pumpiniron74 2 months ago
@pumpiniron74 Yep, you're right. Feel free to truck through a hot MOA risking your life and the life of the other crew and making all aircraft in within a 15 mile radius knock off all maneuvering so you can save a few bucks on gas.
skipplet 2 months ago
Both of these clowns are some of the stupidest pilots (if you can call them that) I've heard of in 20 years of flying. Check the AIM, Section 3-4-5 boneheads... "b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts.
You are putting yourselves and your passengers at risk flying VFR into the highest density fighter training MOA on the planet... to be continued...
9GViperDriver 3 years ago
First of let me say that I work for a Navy FA-18 squadron and let me tell you something. WE FLY EVRYDAY!!! Even on some holidays so don't sit there thinking you know it all and think that military pilot don't fly as often a civilian because I bust my ass to keep the jets up so they can go flying.
aocharlie 3 years ago
Quite a reckless thing to do by the F-16 pilot. He should know about the TCAS resolution advisories he causes when approaoching an ac like he did. It is cool to be intercepted if they at least tell you about it before but in this case he fucked up the two civilian ac big time. FAA and ICAO regulations require pilots to follow TCAS advisories. Also, bad idea to fly through an active MOA by the two civilian pilots.
jedrinck 3 years ago
In response to all of the "civilians have more hours than military pilots" posters---quality versus quantity. Every hour flown is spent training or qualifying. They don't just bore holes in the sky or fly the pattern 20 times like civilian types do.
No understanding of the FAR/AIM? They don't know aerodynamics? Are you kidding me? You, sir, are showing your complete ignorance of military aviation right there.
Until you've flown in the military, promptly STFU.
C420sailor 3 years ago
Ive been a commercial rated pilot for 25 years. While I would not appreciate being bounced, I also do not fly through hot MOA's without talking to the controlling agency. Yest it's legal to fly through a hot MOA but is it smart to do so without communicating?.
SurfCityVideo 3 years ago 2
Guess what typical civilian pilots feeling inferior to military combat pilots and when they felt the chance to take control of a situation and did so to the fullest, do you really think that viper pilot put anybody at danger, the drastic moves the civilian aircraft did were more dangerous than a loose formation to get a visual, Our USAF pilot are highly trained and protect idiot civilians that get a rush flying through military airspace grow some nut, any man would love to fly with a f-16 =)
64thAGGRESSOR 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
dude military pilots hardly fly as many hours a civilian would, and that's a fact the viper driver probaly has no more than 1000 hours tt and probably less in f-16, where as the the civial guys fly constantly and more often then just every once in a while "dog fighting flights" thus making the premier pilot more qualified and more current i dont care who you are i would've have done the same thing as the premier pilot
N9602FL 3 years ago
Right, because flying straight and level, Pt A to Pt B, with the autopilot on makes you more qualified. That's admin, nothing more. And I can guarantee you we fly more than just once in a while "dog fighting flights".
YFIP 3 years ago
It takes a ton more skill to fly a large heavy aircraft out of CG longitudal or laterally then to cruise around with an exrta 30 tons of thrust in non-combat situations. ive seen a bunch of hot shot MIL Pies have to forget everything theyve learned to keep an aircraft out of the dirt. Just had one dig in a few months back, lucky he lived. Settled with power. Im a vet so no anti mil comments please. AV only.
helobelow 3 years ago
are even a pilot? lol dont comment if you got no skill i got more hours than you
N9602FL 3 years ago
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YFIP 2 years ago
Very true, true with roor wing too. Unless active combat duty they are lucky to fly 300hrs a year.
helobelow 3 years ago
What? Military pilots barely get enough time in to understand dangers and aerodynamics. I am a big military advocate and salute or brave men and women. But they are mission oriented, weapons trained, have no understanding or minimal understanding of the FAR/AIM, probably don't care and make horrible flight instructors and commercial pilots unless retrained. I love what they do and what they represent. In civilian aviation they tend to screw things up. respectfully.
helobelow 3 years ago
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YFIP 2 years ago
I dont need to log time to watch more than once an ex-military pilot put a helicopter in the dirt nearly killing themself due to settling with power and just piss poor judgement. I completely understand what they are capable of and what they cant do! So back at the disrespect you just showed me son you can respectfully STFU! Really YES!
helobelow 2 years ago
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YFIP 2 years ago
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afviper 2 years ago
I understand the concern with the TCAS "alerts", but once you see the F-16 crusin' off your wing, what's all the "mad" about? Some folks are just to rigid.
mmichaeldonavon 3 years ago
These idiots should not have been in a MOA in the first place if they don't want to come in contact with Military Aircraft, and whoever let them fly through A MOA during a training sortie is a dumbass.
afviper 3 years ago
If you have permission you should not have to worry about coming in contact with military jets.
slovely08 3 years ago
You don't need permission to fly in a MOA. It's nice to know if it's active (so you can better avoid military aircraft), but it's not prohibited airspace.
GoNavy311 3 years ago 2
Nobody "lets" anyone fly through a MOA, it's not an action that requires permission--you just simply fly through it. Contacting the controlling agency beforehand to find out if it's active however is a WISE practice.
GoNavy311 3 years ago
No permission required to fly through an MOA. There are many of them... and it would be ridiculus to fly around them all. Calling is benificial but not required.
helobelow 3 years ago
Had I been at the controls of either small business aircraft involved in this episode, I would have been angry too.
I don't imagine the group that chartered the flights were impressed to see an F-16 pulling maneuvers around the aircraft. Be it out of the pilots hands or not, the passenger group may not see it that way. They may consider the flight planning negligent, or take the pilots skills into question for being in the situation.
I'd of been waiting to file my report too! No question.
theimmelman 3 years ago
That guy said "Pieladus" lol its a Pilatus noob.
sbscottw 3 years ago
Just because it is legal to fly VFR direct through a MOA, doesn't mean it is intelligent. There is a common misconception that just because we have radars, we have global SA and can see anything. Not true, if I'm heads out BFMing, I'm probably not sanitizing with my radar. We're out there protecting your right to be an asshole, don't exercise it by recklessly flying through MOA's ... it's stupid and a recipe for a mid-air. Spend the extra five minutes planning and fly over/under/around MOA's.
YFIP 3 years ago
Agreed.
nickmctrick 3 years ago
This guy is such a whuzzy. A plane gets within 1.5 miles and he starts peeing his panties, and crying to ATC for comfort. He probably went to Riddle....
swidd2 3 years ago
Judging from your Riddle bashing, you're probably from ASU with Riddle envy.
And he did say that the F-16 was within 10 feet of his aircraft. I'd say that warrants a formal complaint.
atmosphotography 3 years ago
I was just thinking the same thing!
velocityflier16 3 years ago
An Airmiss is when two aircraft converge within 10 nautical miles horizontally or 1000 feet vertically. Civil pilots are NOT expecting anything to be that close.
alcockell 3 years ago
I fly in this moa (last flight on Aug 27 2008) as an instructor in F16s. If you fly in a MOA, you MAY have a close pass. We get point outs from our ATC sometimes. Oh, by the way, kind of hard to "Clear" below you while pulling 7+ Gs fighting another aircraft. I think its not so smart to have both the F16s and other aircraft trying to do see and avoid when in this situation. The smartest thing to do would; make it a restricted area, allow civilian traffic through when we are not training.
yankeebulldog16 3 years ago 5
Feel free to truck into an active MOA with the hunch that they are always level VFR, 100% see and aviod, and are talking to you on VHF. Did those guys conduct an intercept- who knows. Regardless, I'll yeild a few bucks in gas (you are going to loose anyways) going to vegas, claiming loss of rights, and sounding like a tool on the radio to everyone here. BTW on weekends these MOAs are cold;ATC routes IFR traffic through them routinely. A socialist government would make them restricted areas.
Craig975 3 years ago 2
If this civilian pilot gets intercepted for real one day and instead of using his eyes and common sense he decides to respond to the inappropriate TCAS advice he may well get his arse shot down.
panictactics 3 years ago
Agreed that he shouldn't have freaked out... I would have tipped my wing and waved to him... But my point is, VFR is allowed to be there and has every right to be. Therefore that freedom shall not be taken away. People don't realize that the more they agree with taking away a certain freedom, the more other freedoms will go behind it, and eventually something that THEY think shall remain free. It's a matter of principle, especially in our time where society is in a shift toward socialism.
dan64456 3 years ago
I whole heartedly agree that MOAs are joint use airspace, but I don't agree with the "my right to do so" overriding safety of flight mentality.
This isn't a case of "freedom" it's a case of poor airmanship on behalf of ALL the pilots involved and to some extent the controllers as well. Each party here could have done something better in this situation.
contrail25 3 years ago
"AOPA has long been the champion of bush-league pilots; another example. Frankly that is why I cancelled my membership several years ago. Prudent professionals file, not fly VFR through a MOA. I have to side with the F-16's here."
The FAA says you can fly VFR thru MOA's, why would you want to make laws more restrictive? This kind of mentality will easily allow the government to slip us into fascism. Re-evaluate your thought process.
dan64456 3 years ago
flyninbry, thanks for making my point.
Craig975 3 years ago
AOPA has long been the champion of bush-league pilots; another example. Frankly that is why I cancelled my membership several years ago. Prudent professionals file, not fly VFR through a MOA. I have to side with the F-16's here.
Craig975 3 years ago
Craig975, do you have some kind of unlimited flying budget? Me, and many other general aviation aircraft owners and operators fly with a single engine and "on a budget". Its impractical to go around bagdad and gladden, both in terms of time, cost, and safety. Example:PHX->HND, a prudent professional will follow interstate 93 through the MOAs and not north of them over the higher terrain with no road. Your response reflects you are unfarmillar with the situation regarding smaller aircraft.
flyinbry 3 years ago
1.) Do your best to avoid active MOA's if not on an IFR clearance. If you decide to hazard through, guess what? You might just see military jets doing what it is they do in MOA's...
2.) Don't be a c*ckless spaz on the radio claiming the viper closed to within 10'....the Luke tapes show that to be 100% B.S.
3.) Don't assume the viper is deliberately doing maneuvers to "mess with you". Go choke yourself. Take a puff from your inhaler, grab the yoke, and "get the plane under control". Sad.
afrotcbb 3 years ago 3
I'm a center controller who works several MOAs in the central U.S. I have seen these sorts of "intercepts" run on VFR targets in MOAs before.
In fact years ago one F16 pilot lost his head and left the MOA and got too close to an IFR aircraft resulting in a pilot deviation for the F16 pilot.
If these are "legitimate" intercepts as some claim here, I'd love to hear why the Air Force denies that their pilots do such things (or otherwise have the authority to do such things).
ruralgeek 3 years ago
Do any of you who think the military can claim for themselves such large chunks of airspace, ever have to go hundred[s] of miles out of the way to avoid MOAs? If the answer was yes (obviously, it's not) you may think differently.
bbtapb 3 years ago
Stay out of Active MOA's. That Viper didnt even get within 500 ft of that PC12. 20 Feet my ass. In the end if we collide we all loose. Now lets see. 1 4 ship of F-16 aborted training. 1.3 x 8000 per jet = 41600K of tax payer money because some idiot wouldnt follow what the is recommended and stay out of an active MOA.
pOsTaLxL 3 years ago
I'm sure you were right there to see it all. MOAs are shared airspace.
bbtapb 3 years ago
You feel free to look at the HUD and RDR tapes of the Viper from Luke
pOsTaLxL 3 years ago
Not if they are HOT!
Tracon 3 years ago
the civilan pilots gave their explanation only AFTER they were briefed by their lawyers!
remember the idiot that landed his civilian airplane on the runway of a military air force base where the first flight
of the B-2 spirit was to take place ?(worldwide broadcasted life!)
forgotten all the trespassings of forbidden air corridors ? (area 51,white house,nasa facilities,...)
BTW militairy aircraft always have priority,including in shared airspace!
2HEXJUMPER 3 years ago
It seems the general attitude of "sharing" MOAs overrides the entire point of a MOA": to let pilots know where exactly the military is conducting training. It's a much safer way of doing things than if we didn't have them. To exercise one's "right" to enter a MOA either knowing or not knowing it is active is simple reckless on the GA pilot's behalf. The majority of my fellow military pilots and I are very professional and we go out of our way to coexist safely with our GA counter parts.
contrail25 3 years ago
And for your COOPERATIVE attitude us civilian pilots are grateful and happy to play along.
bbtapb 3 years ago
I'd concur that the vast majority of military (and GA) pilots are responsible and professional. That said, I don't get your point about not entering MOAs even if we know they are inactive. How is it reckless to enter airspace that isn't actively being used in its MOA role? Also, as others have said, even many active MOAs allow for VFR operations.
There is so much restricted airspace these days - I think we can all agree it is a challenge (and a shame).
gipper913 3 years ago
I completely agree with you on the point of flying through an inactive MOA, but I specifically said active and was referring to those that enter knowing they are active and those that fly through them completely ignorant to the MOA status.
I have no problems with pilots that take the time to check on the status of MOAs and make sound judgment based on what they find.
contrail25 3 years ago
Ok Contrail I had misread your comment of "not knowing it is active" as if you meant knowing it is inactive. Poor, quick read by me.
Overall, I just hope we have fewer restricted airspace locations in the future. It has drastically altered the freedom of flight. Even the fighter-jockies will someday be out of the military and may want to continue to enjoy flying privately.
Thanks for your service.
gipper913 3 years ago
The F16 driver needs to get fired...no question about it! If he were a civilian pilot like the rest of us flying a VLJ or an L-39 the FAA would pull his ticket is 2 seconds flat. Why should he get a slap on the wrist for such a gross viloation?!?
N200PF 3 years ago
"A gross violation"? Flying unannounced through the middle of an intercept training mission in a MILITARY Operating Area is the cause of this incident. It's a good thing the Viper pilots saw the intruders in time to knock off their training. A visual ID coming no closer than 500 feet (radar tapes show) is a perfectly normal maneuver. I can on fault the F-16 pilot for not turning off his Mode 3/C to avoid setting off the TCAS
kinner111 3 years ago
MOAs are shared airspace between the military and the citizenry. The PEOPLE in the USA own the airspace, not the government. What is the "freedom" these guys purport to be defending? Freedom to fly over the country?
bbtapb 3 years ago