@TheJpgr1958 A testimony is completely worthless? You'd better throw away your Bible then, because that's all it is. It doesn't provide hard proof that God even exists, yet it's good enough for you. Why? It's extremely apparent you have a double-standard.
@NoneBeforeNoneAfter Besides, most of the points you mentioned are speculative in nature, and none of them are central to LDS doctrine. I recommend that you and all others investigate the pillars of the gospel. You would be surprised what you could find.
@NoneBeforeNoneAfter None of that is proof of anything, those are your own opinions. Just because someone else's beliefs are not exactly the same as yours is no "proof" that it isn't true.
@supernovamike I'm guessing you're a Mormon? Why is it that your Mormon "apologists" refuse to debate biblical scholars in public events? Because they know they'll be torn apart. The Book of Mormon isn't even set in a real location, supposedly in the New America where Jesus appeared, its a total crock of shit. You have to be an illogical, irrational moron to believe Mormonism as truth.
@burtontoker Do you suppose that any time someone refuses to get into a fight, they're doing it because they know they can't win? Of course not. Some people refuse to do things because they know it's wrong and pointless. Bible-bashing accomplishes nothing except creating more churches and more atheists.
But if you think Latter-day Saints are too scared to defend their faith, notice that I'm right here. I'm more than happy to answer questions if you want. But I won't try to "prove" my beliefs.
@supernovamike Your Mormon beliefs are utter and total bullshit. Joseph Smith is a fraud, a scam artist, and was into the occult. He was money digger who was praying to God the night Moroni appeared, to help him understand why he was so "worthy." The night the angel appeared was sept 21st, the autumn equinox, a day very important to the occult. Jesus tells us "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light," 2 Corin 11:14. You're an idiot for believing Mormonism.
@burtontoker Well if you have no questions, and nothing intelligent to add to the conversation, then I won't bother trying to explain anything. All you know is hatred and insult, and if that's your method for etablishing truth, I can't help you. Let me know if you actually are interested in learning something, but until then you'd do the world a favor by keeping your ingorance and your uninformed, belligerant bigotry to yourself. Have a nice day. :)
@supernovamike I don't have any questions, because I know more than you do about your own cult. I know who Joseph Smith was, and he was no prophet of God. He was looking to get rich quick. YOU are the uninformed, unintelligent, totally irrational person. You REALLY believe the Book of Mormon is the new Bible? You're totally brainwashed, and the only people who believe Mormonism are those who are uneducated. Jesus got mad too you idiot, look at Matthew 23, mark 3, mark 8.
@burtontoker You say you know more than I do about "Mormonism," and you say that I think "the Book of Mormon is the new Bible?"? Where did you get that idea from? It certainly wasn't from the LDS Church. Saying that Mormons are uneducated also shows that you know little about them.
I know Jesus got angry, but not the same way as you (e.g. He never lowered himself to the point of using profanity). Don't try to justify your behaviour by twisting the scriptures.
@supernovamike It essentially is a new bible, technically its the "restoration." Whatever the case, Mormons are uneducated. Joseph Smith was a fraud, a money digger, and had multiple wives. So you think theres nothing wrong with your founder having multiple wives, and at least one underage? I cant wait to see you try to justify that. Or how up until 1966 Mormons taught blacks are cursed. Mormonism is a fraud, and anyone who buys its story is clearly uneducated about who JS was.
@burtontoker No, I don't think there was anything wrong with it. Just like I don't think that there was anything wrong with things like the Great Flood, the Ten Plagues, the destruction of Canaanites by order of God, or any of the other things that happened in the Bible that cannot be explained enough to satisfy their critics.
Point to ponder: Why should I deny all the wonderful things I DO know because of a few things I don't fully understand yet? I don't let the past confuse the present.
@supernovamike Can you tell me what I must do in order to go to heaven, according to Mormon doctrine? And can you tell me what I must do to go to heaven according to the Bible? Answer those two questions please, enlighten me.
@burtontoker If you're so obsessed with "who JS was", have you ever in your life read the accounts of all the people who knew Joseph best? Everyone who was closely acquinted with him had nothing but praise for his character, honesty, sincerity, and faith. So many people rant about how he was a liar and a fraud, but unfortunately, they have no real evidence to back up their claims. The disbelief of all the world doesn't prove he was a liar, and there are NO witnesses on the other side.
@supernovamike There is no evidence that he was a fraud? My God, you are truly brainwashed. He was held in a court of law for TREASURE HUNTING, you are the one who has failed to do any research. Keep drinking the kool-aid. There is no point arguing with someone like yourself who doesn't want the truth. For Gods sake, YOU'RE A MORMON! That just explains everything, it explains your low intelligence and your arrogance.
@FollowerChrist777 Very true, but too many use that scripture as an excuse to close their mind, saying that "my understanding of the gospel is right, and any other is evil."
Latter-day Saints read and study the gospel as it is preached in the Bible as well as other Christians do, and I know that the gospel taught in the LDS Church is the same. The restored Church and gospel of Jesus Christ isn't something new, it is the very same as what was taught by Christ and His Apostles in former times.
What turns my stomache is to think a religon can woprship a god who..1. Was a sinner like us along time ago. 2. Worked his way to become a god. 3. Had other gods before him. A god who had sexual relations. A god who did NOT create all things visible and invisible.
What else needs to be said to prove the Mormon god is no god at all.
@NoneBeforeNoneAfter What turns MY stomach is that you are so closed minded. How could a God truly know what we were going through unless he had been through the same thing? A god with no experience, with no time whence they proved that they were a truly worthy being, would be a truly worthless God. @5...We do NOT believe that God did not create all things visible / invisible.
Watching Mormons and Christians argue religion is very entertaining in a way, and kind of sad in a way. Its like watching two retards argue over an imaginary bowl of ice cream.
@stoshd Exactly. But the mormons at least tend to know something about other religions. I leave it to you whether thats actually useful or not, but there it is.
@TheJpgr1958 You're in no place to get after me for not responding to something. But why would I reply to that when I can't get you to understand the most basic principles of the gospel? You're miles away from seeing the nature and context of such things.
@TheJpgr1958 I explained to you long ago that the mistranslations in the Bible are far less severe than you think, but obviously you weren't paying attention again. You're blowing that idea way out of proportion, and you haven let yourself learn anything.
@supernovamike Why focus on mistranslations so heavily? The very worst you could say about the bible is that it was translated correctly. In what language/context are the biblical acts and promotion of slavery, rape, murder, genocide, infanticide acceptable? Mormonism is a kinder gentler version of christianity, but unfortunately, its branches from a poison seed. The problem with Mormonism is that it is too much like Christianity rather than the opposite.
@TheJpgr1958 When you learn what revelation is (see post by knowledge999999999), you'll get somewhere. Until then you'll continue straining at gnats to divert attention away from your silent digestion of some very large and inconvenient camels. Good luck.
@supernovamike Well since you responded again, I will do the same. From reading the comments by knowledge999999, just like you, quotes us passages from the bible, yet the question which never gets answered is how does he know those passages are correctly translated? Still waiting for an answer. I also see that you didn't comment about the fact that you have the hope of becoming a god, and having sex with all of your wives. supernovamike=supersexmachine. "Good Luck." Right back at ya!!
@TheJpgr1958 haha slow down man. My comment wasn't a personal attack, I was pointing out the faults in your behavior, reasoning, and perspective. Christ did the same repeatedly; would you respond to him that way? You've fallen for the same thing they did.
Revelation ... The English word revelation is translated from a Greek word apocalypse, meaning to make known or uncover. Without revelation all would be guesswork, darkness, and confusion. "The Holy Ghost is a revelator" My brother's and sister's we can be slaves to our own ignorance...Pride and ignorance is not a good mix. WE invite all people to ask God if the message of the restored gospel of Christ is true. Rom 1:16; Matt 24:14
The Holy scriptures invite us to seek knowledge and understanding as hidden treasure.. Prov 2, 3. Also in the Holy Bible is Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. It is the knowledge of the truth that will set the world free... we invite all people to seek knowledge as hidden treasure
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone....
Eph 5:23 For the husmand is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. We believe in one faith and one baptism
@supernovamike I saw a program about a Mormon who disappeared. Just vanished into thin air. Seeing that his family are devout Mormons, should they pray to their heavenly father for help? But if they don't get any help from him, do you think they didn't get an answer because heavenly father, being an exalted man with body parts, was sitting on the toilet relieving himself, or was he pro-creating with one of his many wives?
@TheJpgr1958 You really would make a good Pharisee. You accuse me of closed-mindedness when you yourself are the posterboy of it. I`ve done my part to investigate the truth, and nothing but what I know has withstood the test.
@supernovamike "You really would make a good Pharisee." Well I see that our conversation has gone to personal attacks. Allrighty, if that's the way you would like to end this, I'm game. I respond by stating that you are pretty tough behind your keyboard where you are very safe, but I highly doubt you would state this to my or any else's face. So keep believing that you will become a god someday and have never ending celestial sex with your many wives, but sure your mom isn't one of them.
@supernovamike That is of course you are into incest, are you? So sad that when you people who are in cults can't answer tough questions, you bring about the attacks, and then cry fowl when it's done to you. Poor wittle Mormon you are. "Of course I`ve looked for explanations of the contradictions, but some of the ones I`ve heard don`t withstand simple investigation." Well that's what you get for studying with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Oh My bad, your a Mormon, but you could pass...
@supernovamike for a JW, seeing that you both claim the exact same things. "Don`t expect any missionaries to answer your question." Oh I don't expect them too. They would probably give me the same garbage of an answer you gave me. My question was unimportant and a waste of your time according to you. Oh well, have fun becoming like your heavenly father. Keep in shape, for you are going to need it, you future sex machine you.
@blackhawk917 "don't expect any missionaries to answer your question"??? I actually laughed when I read that." Yes that is pretty hilarious. The willte missionaries didn't nor couldn't answer my question, just like a Jehovah Witness can't answer the tough questions without as Mormons do as well, fall back on their testimony which is completely worthless. And instead of saying they would look into it and get back to me with an answer, they folded like cheap suits and ran. Very typical.
@cindyisa10 p.s. sorry to make you do all that work. I tried just posting the link, but Youtube seems to have a problem with pasting URLs into forum posts. Oh well. :P
But I hope that helps you understand better where I'm coming from.
@supernovamike I hope you had a great holiday. Thanks for your response to my questions on the spirit along with the "Preach My Gospel" reference. I'll look this material over as it will take a little time. Also, In the meantime, if you'd like, I can explain some of the Bible discrepencies such as the inscription (INRI), the NT misquoting of OT sciptures, and of course, Matt. 27:9 of Zechariah's prophecy to Jeremiah.
@cindyisa10 To save space and better explain the Spirit, I'll point you to the "Preach My Gospel" manual, which is the basic manual of instruction for LDS missionaries.
Go to Google, type "Preach My Gospel", and click on the first link. On the site, click on the PDF for Chapter 4. For the most direct answer, read the section on pages 96 - 97. It also gives an extensive list of scriptures about the voice of the Spirit, although it is not a comprehensive account of all scriptures on the subject.
I asked the following question to 2 Mormon missionaries the other day, and they couldn't respond to it, so I would appreciate it if a Mormon reading this would give a bash. When you pray to your heavenly father, and you don't receive an answer, do you think you didn't get one because since your heavenly father was once a man who lived on a planet, that would mean he had genitals like a man, would he be preoccupied in answering you because he was sitting on the toilet relieving himself?
I'm not a linguist. I can't provide all the grammatical explanations. What I know is more important than that. I know by the the Spirit the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and all that it entails. I'm sorry that you have been led to believe that the Spirit isn't good enough for you. If you will only trust your mind and the empirical evidence you can comprehend, you allow Satan to lead you wherever he wants. Only the Spirit can lead us to truth. If you've read the Bible, you should know that.
@supernovamike And here's something I mentioned to you before for you to ponde-Since Christ used manuscript copies of the Old Testament-copies that were far removed from the original biblical documents, quoting them constantly, He trusted their reliability. From this, what does this tell you about Christ's attitude toward manuscript copies? Does this not indicate that manuscript copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively?
@TheJpgr1958 "your church makes the claim, therefore she must prove it, and so far she hasen't."
Read the NT. You fit nicely into the shoes of the skeptics who constantly bombarded Christ with questions, demanding proof of His claims. I give you the same response that He gave them.
Mark 8:12 "And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a aign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation." (see also Matt. 12:39; John 4:48)
Us mormons has the true church of GOD!! we also HAVE!!!! another testament of GOD!!!!! During the time of joesph smith aka our first latter day saints profet witch was murdered by a mob of non-mormons BECAUSE!!! they were jealous and if the people who murdered them was a true christian they wouldʻnt murder a no one because thats one of the ten commandments of GOD!!!
MORMONISM IS NOT A CHRISTIAN RELIGION! FOLKS, BE CAREFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LEAD IN TO THE DECEPTION OF THIS PROVEN FALSE RELIGION!
I read this book and highly reccomend it for everyone who is looking in to this blasphemous religion that can take your soul to hell. The author grew up in the Mormon Church and it is a completely FALSE RELIGION! Read the book CAN MITT ROMNEY SERVE TWO MASTERS?
You shouldn't cherry pick the Apostle Pauls teaching. The apostle Paul also said that "if we or an angel from heaven preaches to you a different gospel other than the one that we preached to you let him be accursed" That would be describing the BOM. Paul also said "Lucifer masquerades as an "ANGEL OF LIGHT" Joseph Smith described Moroni as an "ANGEL OF LIGHT" That is probably why it is entrenched with freemasonry which openly serves their 'worshipful master Lucifer' As do mormons!
about the Book of Mormon preaching a "different gospel," I'm going to have to disagree emphatically. I've read the Book of Mormon all the way through multiple times, and have done the same with the New Testament. The gospel is exactly the same. The "different gospel" came when the early church was overcome with apostasy and false doctrine -- the beginnings of which are extremely evident in the New Testament. The BoM's purpose is in part to correct the damage that was done.
@supernovamike "The BoM's purpose is in part to correct the damage that was done." And The Muslim will state that very same thing, except they would state The Quran corrected the damage that was done. And Mohammed came along in 600AD, way, way before Smith ever came on the scene with his so-called restoring of the Gospel. Also the JWS do exactly the same thing that Mormons do, so there is nothing unique to your claim. This has been going on for centuries.
Nothing that I said had anything to do with whether our claim was unique or not. The fact that other people have similar claims doesn't automatically prove the Book of Mormon false. What are you trying to say?
@supernovamike I believe you should really study the other groups I mentioned and read what they have stated concerning their group and their own books that either compliment or help correct The Bible. You will be amazed. With that stated, I would like to ask a question...The Mormon church states that The Bible is the Word of God, in so fat as it is correctly translated, yes? That would mean that there are passages within the Old and New Testament that are not correctly translated.
Would you provide us with the passages from both the Old and New Testaments that are not correctly translated, the grammatical reasons why they are not correctly translated, and the correct translation of those passages? When I ask Mormon missionaries this question, I usually don't any response from them. Can you provide us with the answer?
@TheJpgr1958 Don't assume that I've never read anything about other religions--I do regularly. In fact, I really enjoy it, and I have great respect for many of the things that others have said and done. Personally, I'm most impressed with the Seventh-Day Adventists... but still, the more I read about others, the more convinced I become that the Book of Mormon is indeed the Word of God.
@supernovamike "Don't assume that I've never read anything about other religions--I do regularly." Then if that is true, you would realize that other religions, Islam, Roman Catholic, JWS, Oneness, Church's of Christ, all claim to be the one true church, and that your claim to be this one true church is not special to your group. The Mormon church does not have the "corner market" on Christianity, and more than these other groups do.
@TheJpgr1958 As for the Bible translation, it would be foolish to believe that every existing translation of the Bible is equally pure. We use the King James Version because it reflects the original writings the best.
As for parts that have been mistranslated, I don't think there are as many as you seem to be implying. One is Luke 23:43 where Christ tells a thief that he would join him in paradise. We know it's a mistranslation because the thief has not yet met the requirements for paradise.
@supernovamike Ummm, who is this "we" you speak of who knows Luke 23:43 is mistranslated? "We know it's a mistranslation because the thief has not yet met the requirements for paradise." All right, what are these "requirements" this thief would of had to do in order to be in Paradise? Also, please provide us with all of the rest of the passages from both the Old and New Testaments that are not correctly translated and the reasons.
@TheJpgr1958 "We" includes anyone who knows the requirements for entry into paradise, which are simply the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including (but not limited to) faith, repentence, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and other commandments. It would be more accurate if it said "spirit world." I know you want grammatical reasons, but I'm not that kind of Bible student. I focus on the teachings of the Bible, not on the way the words are put together.
@supernovamike "We" includes anyone who knows the requirements for entry into paradise, which are simply the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including (but not limited to) faith, repentence, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and other commandments." Well then that would include JWS, Roman Catholics, Oneness, Disciples of Christ etc. As was told to you before, these groups, all claiming to be the one true church, state and practice the same as Mormons do.
@TheJpgr1958 "As was told to you before, these groups, all claiming to be the one true church, state and practice the same as Mormons do."
I know and understand that LDS beliefs are not all completely unique. I never claimed otherwise, yet you insist on pointing that out. Why? You're beating a dead horse that never existed.
@supernovamike "I know you want grammatical reasons, but I'm not that kind of Bible student." Well shouldn't you be? I mean, does not the grammer, syntax, context of of the Bible mean so little to you? "I focus on the teachings of the Bible, not on the way the words are put together." Then how do you know what the teachings of the Bible are if one does not study the words? So apparently all of those things I listed before mean nothing to you?
@supernovamike Alos, if as you stated Luke 23:43 IS mistranslated, how then should the passage read? Please give us the correct rendering of the text, the grammatical reason/reasons for it.
@supernovamike "As for parts that have been mistranslated, I don't think there are as many as you seem to be implying." I'm not implying anything...your church, the Mormon church, states that the Bible is the word of God, in so far as it is correctly translated. Therefore, it's up to you to provide those who ask, the passages from the Bible that are not correctly translated. How many are in the Old Testament? How many from the New Testament? Do you have any idea? The reasons why etc.
@TheJpgr1958 No, I cannot provide off the top of my head a list of all the mistranslations of the Bible. Firstly because there isn't room on these post boards, secondly because I have better things to do, and thirdly because that would be a huge waste of effort for me to scour the Bible looking for everything wrong with it. I don't have any obligation to provide this list you ask for, and I have even less desire to do so. When I study the Bible, I do it to learn the gospel. Not to find fault.
@supernovamike "No, I cannot provide off the top of my head a list of all the mistranslations of the Bible." And this does not surprise me one bit. All Mormon missionaries I ask can't do it either. It must not be that important to them or to you. But that does not answer the question which is if, as the Mormon church teaches, that there are passages in there Bible that are not correctly translated, how do you know which ones?
@TheJpgr1958 "All Mormon missionaries I ask can't do it either. It must not be that important to them or to you."
You can't honestly expect every Latter-day Saint to walk around with an extensive list of such things in their heads. That's just ridiculous. And no, it's not that important to us that we're able to list all the things that other people do wrong. As I've said before, we strive to learn the gospel from the Bible, not to find all the ways that it's wrong. That would be a waste of time
@TheJpgr1958 "if...there are passages in there Bible that are not correctly translated, how do you know which ones?"
The Church prints the KJV Bible with a remarkable system of footnotes, which include some alternate translations made by Joseph Smith as well as alternate translations from the original Greek/Hebrew text. Those notes can do a lot to help people understand passages that may not be translated perfectly. But I don't know of anyone who's created a complete list like the one you seek.
@supernovamike "I don't have any obligation to provide this list you ask for, and I have even less desire to do so." Oh my!! Would this be your response if you were a missionary and some one like myself had asked you the same question? I highly doubt it. You should have said was "You know, that's a good question. I'll try to find the answer to it, and get back to you as soon as I can." You see, the person asking the question would have more respect for you, unless respect means nothing to you.
@TheJpgr1958 "Would this be your response if you were a missionary and some one like myself had asked you the same question?"
I have been a missionary, and would have given the same answer. Hopefully the person I'm speaking to would be a little more understanding when I explain that such a list is a waste of time and effort, though. That's not our purpose as a Church, and it shouldn't be our purpose as missionaries. Elders should speak the truth, and that's what I'm doing.
@supernovamike "Hopefully the person I'm speaking to would be a little more understanding when I explain that such a list is a waste of time and effort," But you see, this is the problem. If an organization, The Mormon Church, makes claims like the one we have been discussing, then the attitude should not be a waste of time for you to find the answer for the person asking the question. And this is the exact same attitude I get when I talk to, for example, a JW.
@supernovamike When I point to them the fact that their organization predicted the end of the world 7 different times, and of course it didn't come to pass, they pretty much state the same thing you have stated. The purpose of their church is to love people, don't bother with the past, for it's a waste of time to do so. And that's pretty much what these Mormon missionaries told me. Very sad indeed. But I will leave you with this...Jesus Himself whom you claim to believe and follow....
@supernovamike promised His followers that the Holy Spirit would work through individuals to provide an accurate recounting of the events of His life (John 14:26). And because of this I can trust the Bible as The Word of God. So again, if want to believe and claim that their are passage that are not correctly translated, then the burden of prove is on the one, you, making that assertion. And like Muslims, JWS, Oneness, etc. when asked for the evidence, you produce none.
@supernovamike "Elders should speak the truth, and that's what I'm doing." Ummm, no you are dismissing an honest question as not being worthy of your time and which you will give no effort in trying to find an answer to, and that my friend is being inconsistent with what the Scripture teaches which is "to be ready to give an answer to those who ask you, for the faith and hope that is in you" (1 Peter 3:15). But then, this passage could not be translated correctly, right?
@TheJpgr1958 I've explained why an answer to your question is not important. I'm sure it would be possible to compile a list of the mistranslations, but it would be a waste of time because it diverts attention away from what it actually important. I offer a similar response when people ask me questions like "where is Kolob?" It just doesn't matter. LDS doctrine is founded on Christ, with the Book of Mormon as keystone. The things you focus on are only peripheral, so I don't dwell on them.
@supernovamike "The things you focus on are only peripheral, so I don't dwell on them." Well there you go. Much like a JW when they are faced with the fact of their false predictions for the end of the world, given through revelations by the way, they state the exact same thing. Oh well, I'll keep asking other Mormons that same question. Perhaps one day I'll get a half way decent response.
@TheJpgr1958 "Much like a JW when they are faced with the fact of their false predictions for the end of the world"
You're taking this way too seriously. Surely you suppose that false predictions of the end of the world are at least a little more serious than this list you're asking for. The fact that I as an individual am unable to instantly produce a comprehensive list of all the errors in the Bible is nowhere near as serious as false apocalyptic prophecy. But somehow I don't think you care.
@TheJpgr1958 Understand that I don't blame you for asking this question. I know that it is an honest question, and I am not trying to dismiss it as much as I'm trying to dispel the false notion that all claims have to be empirically provable in order to be true. The gospel has never worked that way. LDS Missionaries don't set out to prove to people that their message is true, because that knowledge can only be revealed by the Holy Ghost. The Spirit is the only one who can establish these truths.
@TheJpgr1958 btw, what you said about the Bible being written correctly is something that we don't disagree with. The inaccuracies were not penned by the original authors, they were created afterwards as the books went through the hands of wicked (or at least uninspired) men. The process is defined in prophecy by the prophet Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Read 1 Nephi 13:20-29; you may find it interesting, and it should help you better understand what we believe regarding this subject.
@supernovamike "The inaccuracies were not penned by the original authors, they were created afterwards as the books went through the hands of wicked (or at least uninspired) men." Well again, much like you giving no prove to these so-called "mistranslations" of Bible passages, you should consider this....Because Christ raised absolutely no doubt about the adequacy of the Scripture as His contemporaries knew them, we can say without question that the first-century text of the Old Testament...
was a wholly adequate representation of the divine word originally given. Jesus regarded the extant copies of His day as to be just as authoritative in their message just as much as the originals were. He always appealed to them as authoritative. The respect He and His apostles held for the extant Old Testament text is an expression of the confidence in God's providential preservation of the copies and translations as substantially identical with the inspired originals.
@TheJpgr1958 God commanded J Smith to provide an Inspired Translation of the Bible (D&C 45:60-61, D&C 73:3–4, & D&C 93:53). It is clear from this and various journal entries that he was not just "making clarifications" in the Bible. He was "translating" it and restoring the many precious truths that were lost. For several reasons, the LDS church does NOT accept this translation as official. The RLDS Church (Community of Christ) published it in 1867. The passages in question are therein.
@TheJpgr1958 History can prove the accuracy of Today's Biblical texts. Compare the Dead Sea Scrolls to today's OT. Every book was found except Ester. F Josephus lists the official OT books used at time of Christ which are the same books today. The early church fathers heavily quoted from OT/NT books in their works way before the Bible was even compiled in 3rd century. One can virtually build entire Bible from their quotes alone. Compare these quotes with today's Bible. Evidence cant be silenced.
@cindyisa10 Yes I agree with you. But you can see that Mormons, like Muslims and other groups who suffer from the "true church syndrome," are asked to provide detailed reasons why these so-called passages that are not correctly translated, well, you can read what supernovamike stated. It's not that important to him, and it's a waste of time. But he claims to learn from the Bible. Oh well. "If you ask me, I could write a book."
@TheJpgr1958 Would this list you seek for be the only thing that would ever convince you that there is any validity to the LDS Church? You're looking for the wrong thing. Here's the problem: There is a way to know if LDS claims are true. That method is detailed in the scriptures (Moroni 10:3-5; John 16:13) but you aren't interested in that method. The problem is that you will only accept proof according to YOUR terms. You must submit to God's conditions if you want to learn His truths.
@supernovamike Jesus Himself whom you claim to believe and follow, told His followers that the Holy Spirit would work through individuals to provide an accurate recounting of the events of His life (John 14:26). And because of this I can trust the Bible as The Word of God. I also quoted you 1 Peter 3:15. Now my question again to you is this: Are these passages correctly translated, or are they one of the many that are not? See, you tell me to read John 16:13 to know if the LDS claim is true.
@TheJpgr1958 You already quoted John 14:26 to me and I already responded accordingly. You don't listen. Get off your high horse and pay attention to what I'm telling you. As I already said, we don't believe the mistakes were penned by the original authors, but that they arose during the Apostasy. And I still maintain that the Bible as it exists today cannot be inerrant given some of the blatant contraditions it contains, such as Acts 9:7 compared to Acts 22:9.
@supernovamike It's very easy to accuse the Bible of inaccuracies, but it's quite another matter to prove it. Certain passages at 1st glance appear contradictory, but further investigation shows this isn't the case. People so often want to employ a different set of rules when it comes to the Bible, and to this I immediately object. If I apply this same standard to the BofM, I can find just as many alleged contradictions and alterations. By applying your logic, why should I trust the BofM?
But because of your Church's claim of there being passages not correctly translated, how do you know this passage is correctly translated? Do you see the circle the Mormon church has put you in? You also stated that I'm taking this way too seriously. Umm, may I say the same can be said to you as a returned missionary. I mean, who in their right mind would take 2 years out of one's life to go knock on doors, proclaiming to be the one true church, and not take it seriously?
@TheJpgr1958 Also as I've said before, your idea of our view of the Bible is flawed. You seem to think that I see the Bible as a corrupted book that's completely loaded with mistakes and mistranslations. That's not at all true. The errors that are in it are not as major as you're implying. I study the Bible and learn the gospel from it. Every now and then I look at alternate translations to help clarify some passages, but by and large there is not that much wrong with it.
@supernovamike "And I still maintain that the Bible as it exists today cannot be inerrant given some of the blatant contraditions it contains, such as Acts 9:7 compared to Acts 22:9." The word you should use is "apparent" contradictions. There is no contradiction between the verses you cite if one would take the time and study what the original Greek states. But as you stated to me previously, you are not a "grammarian" or a "linguistic," and seeing how you don't want to get into providing...
us with these so-called passages that are not correctly translated because they are unimportant and a waste of your time, then I highly doubt you would be interested in studying the original Greek. I could recommend you a excellent book on this subject, in where the author went through the entire Bible word for word and answered all of the "apparent" contradictions, but again, I doubt you would be interested. It would probably be boring to you.
@TheJpgr1958 My final word to you is this: The Spirit has testified to me and to millions of others the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and all that it entails. A testimony of Christ, or of His gospel, does not come by grammar studies or empirical arguments. It comes only by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Hopefully someday you'll realize that. But if you continue accepting nothing but empirical evidence, you subject yourself to great spiritual damnation.
@supernovamike Ahh yes your testimony. I was wondering when you would play that card. And that's exactly what those 2 missionaries did when I asked them to produce these so-called passages that are not correctly translated. They couldn't, and either could you. So what do Mormons do when faced with tough questions, they bear their testimony. By the way, other groups like JWS, Muslims etc., also have testimonies about their group being being the one true church, so yours does not mean much.
But as one can see, you have not and won't provide us with this list of these incorrectly translated passages because for you my request is "both unreasonable and unimportant." And this is the same answer one would get when speaking to a Muslim. Oh well, I'll keep asking Mormons the question and perhaps one day I'll find a Mormon who would take the time to give me a straight answer. Until then, this claim by the Mormon church is completely a bogus claim, just like the Muslim, JW, Oneness, etc.
@TheJpgr1958 You're wasting my time. You haven't even attempted a response to most of my points, and you will accept nothing except for your own view of reality. The only thing you have to fall back on is that one question (no matter how many times I've explained -- even using the Savior's words -- why it is unimportant), and you keep posting the exact same thing, almost word-for-word. Let me know if you have anything worthwhile to contribute, but if not, don't expect any more responses from me.
@supernovamike "You're wasting my time." Yep, that pretty much sums up my sentiments about this as well. And as for me asking the same question, it's because I have not received an answer. The only responses you gave me were that it's a waste of your time and unimportant. You did give me 2 passages in the book of Acts which to you contradict each other, and I responded by stating that the word is "apparent" contradictions. I also offered to give you the title of a good book on the subject....
@supernovamike where the author went through the entire Old and New Testament word for word and showed how their are no contradictions, but you would have to go to the original Greek language, and to you that would be unimportant and probably boring. But you have your testimony, so all will be fine. "But if you continue accepting nothing but empirical evidence," What?? (rolls eyes). Another dodge. Ok then, it's been fun. I'll keep asking other Mormons. Perhaps I'll get an answer some day.
@TheJpgr1958 "who in their right mind would take 2 years out of one's life to go knock on doors, proclaiming to be the one true church, and not take it seriously?"
...what? Since when does "taking it seriously" translate into "being able to answer every insignificant little question about it"? I've explained to you why an answer to your question is both unreasonable and unimportant. You're confusing yourself if you don't think I take this seriously. If I don't, then why am I here now?
Would you state this to a JW who does the exact same thing? Remember, this is my soul we are talking about. So yes, I take the Bible, understanding the context, the grammer, VERY seriously. As for the rest of your comments, it just bolis down to this, when you are asked to provide the evidence showing the passages that are not correctly translated, like Muslims who state the same thing, you cannot. Remember, your church makes the claim, therefore she must prove it, and so far she hasen't.
So if you ever do come with those passages, please feel free to tell us what they are, and the reasons why they are not correctly translated. Until then, this claim from your church will be considered a bogus claim, and one that can't be substantiated, no matter how much you believe it to be so. But I'll keep asking Mormon Missionaries. Maybe I'll find some one who does care enough about the question to look for the answer, not claiming it to be a waste of time and not important.
@TheJpgr1958 "Does this not indicate that manuscript copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively?"
Yes, they certainly can. But there's a big difference between "can" and "do." I again invite you to read 1 Nephi 13:20-29, and just consider the possibility. The Bible passed through the hands of apostates. Even its compilation was done outside of the Lord's organization of authority, and does not contain everything the Lord has said or will say.
@supernovamike Correct! The Bible doesn't contain everything the LORD says or will say. If it did, it would be infinite. You'd never be able to read it all. However, God did reveal EVERYTHING pertaining to your salvation and purpose in the Bible. It is GOD'S COMPLETE BLUEPRINT for your salvation. If you were an architect, you would provide a blueprint to a builder that contains EVERYTHING for the successful construction of a building. You wouldn't need to specify the brand of hammer/nails to use
@cindyisa10@cindyisa10 I agree with your point about Biblical contradictions. It is true that many will take certain things out of context, and that they aren't truly contradictory, despite what they seem. But I'm not talking aobut that, I'm talking about real factual contradictions that cannot be explained by any amount of grammar study or private interpretation.
I would give examples, but I have to go now. I'll be back sometime soon. Have a good day!
@supernovamike "I'm talking about real factual contradictions that cannot be explained by any amount of grammar study or private interpretation. I would give examples," And we can't wait to read them. I do hope you go in to detail about these so-called "factual" contractions for us.
@supernovamike Sounds good! From reading this thread I see a different methodology is being employed here to ascertain truth that goes beyond or is used in addition to empirical evidence and study. This is why these points become matters of faith. Regarding this, could you please elaborate more on how the spirit confirms truth to you? In other words, how is this method used to determine truth? Is it some kind of vision, a voice, or some kind of feeling? You have a great day as well. :-)
@cindyisa10 Don't expect any response from supernovamike. He's just a brain-washed Mormon who needs prayer. Just read his responses to the question I gave him. Pretty pathetic.
@TheJpgr1958 I can understand your frustration. Let's hear him out and give him time to explain his points. That's only fair. I want to understand his 'spirit' method and how this method led him to the LDS sect and not RLDS or FLDS sects since all these sects validate the BofM via the spirit. How does he know this spiritual prompting is from God and not from another source? Finally, I don't want to prove us right and him wrong. That's not my intention. Truth will set us, him, or both free.
@cindyisa10 Hi again! Sorry for the delay, but the holidays were busy and I've had problems with my internet connection.
I said I'd give a few examples of Bible discrepencies, so I'll do that first.
Some may have explanations, such as Acts 9:7 to Acts 22:9 and Mark 15:25 to John 19:14.
But others I've found seem unexplainable, such as the inscription on the cross, the NT misquoting of OT sciptures, and most notably, the incorrect citing in Matt. 27:9 of Zechariah's prophecy to Jeremiah.
@supernovamike "I said I'd give a few examples of Bible discrepencies," Oh my Lord. You went from apparent Bible mistranslations to now apparent discrepancies. 2 totally different things, but both answerable. "Some may have explanations, such as Acts 9:7 to Acts 22:9 and Mark 15:25 to John 19:14." "SOME!!" Have you even read any of the answers given to show that these passages are "apparent" contradictions? I very highly doubt it, and even if you did, it wouldn't satisfy you.
@TheJpgr1958 "You went from apparent Bible mistranslations to now apparent discrepancies"
False. I was talking to cindyisa10 about contradictions. That's what I said I'd give, and that's what I gave. You've proved yet again that you still don't pay attention.
If you want to give me the name of that book you're free to do so rather than just talk about it. But no, I probably won't read it simply because I don't have the time or money to read every book that gets recommended to me.
@supernovamike "If you want to give me the name of that book you're free to do so rather than just talk about it. But no, I probably won't read it simply because I don't have the time or money to read every book that gets recommended to me." Oh my my my!!! This makes no sense, just like your response to my question was. What would be the point of giving you the title of the book when you then admit you won't read it? If you really want to study these things, you WOULD find the time.
@supernovamike "If you want to give me the name of that book you're free to do so rather than just talk about it. But no, I probably won't read it simply because I don't have the time or money to read every book that gets recommended to me." Oh my my my!!! This makes no sense, just like your response to my question was. What would be the point of giving you the title of the book when you then admit you won't read it? If you really want to study these things, you WOULD find the time.
@supernovamike And as for money, umm ever heard of the library? Oh I know, you don't have the time to go to one right? Waste of time and it's unimportant to you right? No money involved in getting a Library card. It's free. (rolls eyes) Your mind is already made up, so what's the point. Just lame excuses from you. Sorry to have wasted your time. So I'll keep asking Mormon missionaries my question, and maybe one day I'll get a intelligent response to it.
@supernovamike Before I go on, would you even be interested in the title of the book I've been recommending to you, where the author went through the entire Old and New Testaments, word for word and showed that all of these apparent contradictions or now discrepancies can be answered? It even goes in depth in answering, according to you, "the so-called incorrect citing in Matt. 27:9 of Zechariah's prophecy to Jeremiah," as well as "the inscription on the cross."
@TheJpgr1958 Of course I have researched possible explanations of these contradictions; that's why I said that some of them may have explanations. I have also heard an attempted explanation about Matt. 27:9, but it was a pretty pathetic stretch that didn't withstand even the simplest investigation. You're free to share with me what you think the explanation is if you want, but if it's the same as the ones I've heard, you would be right in that it wouldn't satisfy me.
@cindyisa10 As for receiving truth by the Spirit, that question is one of the most important, but it's also one of the most difficult--not because it is a challenge to decipher the Spirit, but because we can't explain exactly how the Spirit feels. It's like trying to explain what salt tastes like. It's very difficult unless the other person has experienced it as well. It is crucial for people to recognize the Spirit, because it is the source of ALL truth, as the scriptures point out clearly.
@TheJpgr1958 "The respect He and His apostles held for the extant Old Testament text is an expression of the confidence in God's providential preservation of the copies and translations as substantially identical with the inspired originals."
I'm curious... then why is it that almost every time Christ or his Apostles quotes an Old Testament scripture, they quote it incorrectly? There IS inconsistency within the Bible. Tons of it. The Bible cannot be inerrant given the contradictions within it.
This then shows the Bible itself indicates that copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively. Now if want to still believe that this can't be and that "inaccuracies.... were created afterwards as the books went through the hands of wicked (or at least uninspired) men," then once again, the burdun of prove is on you to show these passage that are not correctly translated. But to you, "It just doesn't matter," and are "peripheral."
@supernovamike "When I study the Bible, I do it to learn the gospel. Not to find fault." Not to find fault eh? But before this you stated: "No, I cannot provide off the top of my head a list of all the mistranslations of the Bible." You state first that there are mistranslations in Bible, but then you say you don't try to find fault. This makes no sense. Oh well, I'll keep asking the next pair of Mormon missionaries the question. Maybe one day my question will get an answer.
My goodness that Mormon dude just irritates me to know end. How did this guy ever pass a test in grade school? What would we just say "that it is all how one interprets it and God gives me my answers-," he would say, but the teacher would say "but you didn't get an answer right."
That is like arguing with a kid about whether getting to eat a cookie before bed, after all the parents said that it was not O.K. but somehow the kid still wants to think the parents said yes....
In the hymn "If you could hie to Kolob in the Twinkling of an eye"(This song was written by a close associated of Joseph in 1835, as far as my knowledge goes, the lyrics were never changed)
This is interesting to me because the second verse begins "Or see the grand beggining where space did not extend".
SO PLZ CORRECT ME IF YOU CAN, but doesn't this correlate with and predate the Big Bang Theory even though this is supposed to be embarrasing :)
I don't really understand your question... but I'll try to answer anyway. LDS theology does not state clearly whether or not the Big Bang theory has any validity. Such things have not been revealed, and while discussion about the deep mysteries of the universe is very interesting, it is speculative.
All the Christian believe in the traditional way which most so called christians are not the true god believer they go to church and play as a great pretender how many so called true chrisitan is a god believer or just a pretender and tells people that he or she is a believer only God knows!!
Aren't Mormons Christians? The last time I checked with my LDS friends, they are true Christians like I'm true to my Hindu/Islam faith. May I express my exact sentiment of this whole ordeal in the words of my leader, Ghandi: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” To me, most Christians are hypocrites. The true ones are the ones who really follow Christ shows in their demeanor and actions. My LDS friends are true Christians. :)
I am christian, bks I believe in one God, who was, who is, and who will be, in other words, immutable God, allways-existing God. Self-suficient God. Absolute in any concept.
Mormons are friends of evolutionist, they believe that man become God, and God as consequence has a higher God than HIM. Relative God. Ridiculous Religion. Human inmoral mind.
For anyone who wants to know the real truth about Mormons, please go to Mormon(dot)org. There you can view the profiles of hundreds of members of the church, who talk about their experiences, beliefs, etc., and discuss why they are Mormon. I also have a profile on the site. To view it, just type "Terry" and "Omaha" in the search box. I am a Mormon by choice, and I tell you why. :o)
These Mormon gentleman speak of efficacious, which means successful in producing a desired or intended result. Interesting how they use the word that exposes their intentions. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck...Not so! If there is a devil and we all know there is, his job is to snare you with a counterfeit. Christians are to grow in his word, so you will not fall for the deceptions of Satan!
@1LonePuma but you are as gullible as the writer of bible supposed the followers shall be. there were many religions even before christianity that claimed that god exists and how earth was created.. bible was obviously inspired from them.
Part 1: True Christians follow the Word of God, the Bible, period! Mormon’s show they use the Bible, but after you take the bate, they bring out the Book of Mormons, negating the Bible. Christ warned us of those following anything other then his word! Jesus teaches us that the truth shall set you free, there can't be two truths! Christians exclusively trust the living word of God and are Not as gullible as they suppose.
@1LonePuma The Book of Mormon testifies that Jesus is the Christ. We don't negate the Bible. I don't know where you got your information from, but it's wrong.
@JediLDS: I don't know what to tell you, but if your really serious about the Lord, perhaps you could do a search on Google and find these answers to how it became a cult. You can never go wrong in finding the truth about your affiliation with the Mormons. I don't mean to sound insulting, but to offer you truth without you needing to justify your position. This is another reason being baptized in the Holy Ghost is of the up-most importance, as He is the Spirit of Truth and leads us into truth.
@JediLDS: I don't make light of my comment nor do I have an ax to grind, but I choose to follow the word of God, Jesus, and not Joseph Smith. Why someone would follow a man instead of Christ I'll never know. The book of Mormons is and was unnecessary, but if you choose to follow it, you can explain how he supersedes the Written Word of God...the Bible to the Lord.
@1LonePuma Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. That's why he was followed, and is revered today as a prophet. As for the Book of Mormon, it does not supersede the Bible, but is a companion to it and is a second witness of Jesus Christ. It tells of Jesus' visit to the Americas after his resurrection.
@JediLDS: So you say he was a prophet, however, true prophets stick to the written word of God, not a companion book. It's obvious your religion places Mr. Smith above Jesus Christ who is the Word of God. Therefore, a Mormons can never be considered as a Christian. Mormon's do not recognize the Holy Ghost either, allowing him to lead and bring people into the truth of the word. Religion is a dangerous word, where to be Christ like is about a personal relationship, which you've yet to experience.
@1LonePuma Your lack of understanding of LDS doctrine and beliefs is showing, my friend. Mormons do not place Joseph Smith above Jesus Christ. Also your statement about Mormons not recognizing the Holy Ghost is totally false, also. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead, along with God the Father and Jesus Christ. Therefore, why wouldn't we recognize him? The Book of Mormon states that the Holy Ghost is God's witness for truth. Just a suggestion, but you need to get more education...
@cont...) about what Mormons REALLY believe before you do anymore posting on these sites. It does your case no good to be posting false information about a religion you obviously know very little about. No slam intended, accusations need to be backed up by factual proof, of which you have provided none.
@1LonePuma it is because of the Holy Ghost that I know the Book of Mormon is true. Reading it, study and prayer, and a witness from the Holy Ghost led me to be a Mormon by choice. My wife had much the same experience before we met and were married. Moroni in the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:4-5) promises that those who read and pray about it, will receive a witness of it's truth from the Holy Ghost.
@JediLDS: Thanks for proving my point. Now try finding that same scripture in the word of God! Moroni, what a joke! I'm afraid that what your listening to is not of the Holy Ghost, he only refers to the Written Word of God, in the BIBLE, nothing else. Already you've proven my point, but if you choose to be deceived, that's your business. God doesn't tell you one thing and someone else something entirely different. this is how we know we're correct, he changes for no one, but you should know that
@1LonePuma claims: " I'm afraid that what your listening to is not of the Holy Ghost, he only refers to the Written Word of God, in the BIBLE, nothing else."
Now there is a statement that you cannot prove. The Holy Ghost it not confined to what's in the Bible. The Holy Ghost can act as a witness for the truth, no matter where that truth may be found. However, I always respect a person's right to be wrong about LDS beliefs and doctrine.
@1LonePuma Here it is in the Bible: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:5-6) If we lack wisdom about something (truth of Book of Mormon, for example), we can ask of God, and it WILL be given to us if we ask in faith. That's exactly what I did.
@JediLDS: I do believe you've been duped! God would never ever go against his own word, that doesn't even make sense. You can justify your book all you want, but don't blame God. The whole point on sending the Holy Ghost was to lead us into truth, giving us discernment, etc., which you have neither, sorry to say. But a wise man will listen to reason and not continue his path of deception. I have no reason to lie, but I am simply throwing you a life vest...put it on least you drown in stupidity!
I am a mormon. My dear brothers what can I help you with? I will try to learn as much as I can from you as well.
MrThundermouth 1 day ago
@TheJpgr1958 A testimony is completely worthless? You'd better throw away your Bible then, because that's all it is. It doesn't provide hard proof that God even exists, yet it's good enough for you. Why? It's extremely apparent you have a double-standard.
supernovamike 2 weeks ago
Wow these comments.......i wish ppl would research and study more....but oh well to each own
ikkabus76 2 weeks ago
@NoneBeforeNoneAfter Besides, most of the points you mentioned are speculative in nature, and none of them are central to LDS doctrine. I recommend that you and all others investigate the pillars of the gospel. You would be surprised what you could find.
supernovamike 2 weeks ago
@NoneBeforeNoneAfter None of that is proof of anything, those are your own opinions. Just because someone else's beliefs are not exactly the same as yours is no "proof" that it isn't true.
supernovamike 2 weeks ago
@supernovamike I'm guessing you're a Mormon? Why is it that your Mormon "apologists" refuse to debate biblical scholars in public events? Because they know they'll be torn apart. The Book of Mormon isn't even set in a real location, supposedly in the New America where Jesus appeared, its a total crock of shit. You have to be an illogical, irrational moron to believe Mormonism as truth.
burtontoker 4 days ago
@burtontoker Do you suppose that any time someone refuses to get into a fight, they're doing it because they know they can't win? Of course not. Some people refuse to do things because they know it's wrong and pointless. Bible-bashing accomplishes nothing except creating more churches and more atheists.
But if you think Latter-day Saints are too scared to defend their faith, notice that I'm right here. I'm more than happy to answer questions if you want. But I won't try to "prove" my beliefs.
supernovamike 3 days ago
@supernovamike Your Mormon beliefs are utter and total bullshit. Joseph Smith is a fraud, a scam artist, and was into the occult. He was money digger who was praying to God the night Moroni appeared, to help him understand why he was so "worthy." The night the angel appeared was sept 21st, the autumn equinox, a day very important to the occult. Jesus tells us "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light," 2 Corin 11:14. You're an idiot for believing Mormonism.
burtontoker 3 days ago
@burtontoker Well if you have no questions, and nothing intelligent to add to the conversation, then I won't bother trying to explain anything. All you know is hatred and insult, and if that's your method for etablishing truth, I can't help you. Let me know if you actually are interested in learning something, but until then you'd do the world a favor by keeping your ingorance and your uninformed, belligerant bigotry to yourself. Have a nice day. :)
supernovamike 2 days ago
@supernovamike I don't have any questions, because I know more than you do about your own cult. I know who Joseph Smith was, and he was no prophet of God. He was looking to get rich quick. YOU are the uninformed, unintelligent, totally irrational person. You REALLY believe the Book of Mormon is the new Bible? You're totally brainwashed, and the only people who believe Mormonism are those who are uneducated. Jesus got mad too you idiot, look at Matthew 23, mark 3, mark 8.
burtontoker 2 days ago
@burtontoker You say you know more than I do about "Mormonism," and you say that I think "the Book of Mormon is the new Bible?"? Where did you get that idea from? It certainly wasn't from the LDS Church. Saying that Mormons are uneducated also shows that you know little about them.
I know Jesus got angry, but not the same way as you (e.g. He never lowered himself to the point of using profanity). Don't try to justify your behaviour by twisting the scriptures.
Brainwashing can go both ways.
supernovamike 18 hours ago
@supernovamike It essentially is a new bible, technically its the "restoration." Whatever the case, Mormons are uneducated. Joseph Smith was a fraud, a money digger, and had multiple wives. So you think theres nothing wrong with your founder having multiple wives, and at least one underage? I cant wait to see you try to justify that. Or how up until 1966 Mormons taught blacks are cursed. Mormonism is a fraud, and anyone who buys its story is clearly uneducated about who JS was.
burtontoker 18 hours ago
@burtontoker No, I don't think there was anything wrong with it. Just like I don't think that there was anything wrong with things like the Great Flood, the Ten Plagues, the destruction of Canaanites by order of God, or any of the other things that happened in the Bible that cannot be explained enough to satisfy their critics.
Point to ponder: Why should I deny all the wonderful things I DO know because of a few things I don't fully understand yet? I don't let the past confuse the present.
supernovamike 15 hours ago
@supernovamike Can you tell me what I must do in order to go to heaven, according to Mormon doctrine? And can you tell me what I must do to go to heaven according to the Bible? Answer those two questions please, enlighten me.
burtontoker 6 hours ago
@burtontoker If you're so obsessed with "who JS was", have you ever in your life read the accounts of all the people who knew Joseph best? Everyone who was closely acquinted with him had nothing but praise for his character, honesty, sincerity, and faith. So many people rant about how he was a liar and a fraud, but unfortunately, they have no real evidence to back up their claims. The disbelief of all the world doesn't prove he was a liar, and there are NO witnesses on the other side.
supernovamike 15 hours ago
@supernovamike There is no evidence that he was a fraud? My God, you are truly brainwashed. He was held in a court of law for TREASURE HUNTING, you are the one who has failed to do any research. Keep drinking the kool-aid. There is no point arguing with someone like yourself who doesn't want the truth. For Gods sake, YOU'RE A MORMON! That just explains everything, it explains your low intelligence and your arrogance.
burtontoker 7 hours ago
@supernovamike Galatians 1:8
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
FollowerChrist777 2 days ago
@FollowerChrist777 Very true, but too many use that scripture as an excuse to close their mind, saying that "my understanding of the gospel is right, and any other is evil."
Latter-day Saints read and study the gospel as it is preached in the Bible as well as other Christians do, and I know that the gospel taught in the LDS Church is the same. The restored Church and gospel of Jesus Christ isn't something new, it is the very same as what was taught by Christ and His Apostles in former times.
supernovamike 18 hours ago
What turns my stomache is to think a religon can woprship a god who..1. Was a sinner like us along time ago. 2. Worked his way to become a god. 3. Had other gods before him. A god who had sexual relations. A god who did NOT create all things visible and invisible.
What else needs to be said to prove the Mormon god is no god at all.
NoneBeforeNoneAfter 2 weeks ago
@NoneBeforeNoneAfter What turns MY stomach is that you are so closed minded. How could a God truly know what we were going through unless he had been through the same thing? A god with no experience, with no time whence they proved that they were a truly worthy being, would be a truly worthless God. @5...We do NOT believe that God did not create all things visible / invisible.
blackhawk917 2 weeks ago
Watching Mormons and Christians argue religion is very entertaining in a way, and kind of sad in a way. Its like watching two retards argue over an imaginary bowl of ice cream.
stoshd 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@stoshd Yeah... or two bald guys fighting over hair dye. Lols!
cavemantiger 3 weeks ago
@stoshd Exactly. But the mormons at least tend to know something about other religions. I leave it to you whether thats actually useful or not, but there it is.
SammyHales 2 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 You're in no place to get after me for not responding to something. But why would I reply to that when I can't get you to understand the most basic principles of the gospel? You're miles away from seeing the nature and context of such things.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 I explained to you long ago that the mistranslations in the Bible are far less severe than you think, but obviously you weren't paying attention again. You're blowing that idea way out of proportion, and you haven let yourself learn anything.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike Why focus on mistranslations so heavily? The very worst you could say about the bible is that it was translated correctly. In what language/context are the biblical acts and promotion of slavery, rape, murder, genocide, infanticide acceptable? Mormonism is a kinder gentler version of christianity, but unfortunately, its branches from a poison seed. The problem with Mormonism is that it is too much like Christianity rather than the opposite.
SammyHales 2 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 When you learn what revelation is (see post by knowledge999999999), you'll get somewhere. Until then you'll continue straining at gnats to divert attention away from your silent digestion of some very large and inconvenient camels. Good luck.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike Well since you responded again, I will do the same. From reading the comments by knowledge999999, just like you, quotes us passages from the bible, yet the question which never gets answered is how does he know those passages are correctly translated? Still waiting for an answer. I also see that you didn't comment about the fact that you have the hope of becoming a god, and having sex with all of your wives. supernovamike=supersexmachine. "Good Luck." Right back at ya!!
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 haha slow down man. My comment wasn't a personal attack, I was pointing out the faults in your behavior, reasoning, and perspective. Christ did the same repeatedly; would you respond to him that way? You've fallen for the same thing they did.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
Revelation ... The English word revelation is translated from a Greek word apocalypse, meaning to make known or uncover. Without revelation all would be guesswork, darkness, and confusion. "The Holy Ghost is a revelator" My brother's and sister's we can be slaves to our own ignorance...Pride and ignorance is not a good mix. WE invite all people to ask God if the message of the restored gospel of Christ is true. Rom 1:16; Matt 24:14
knowledge999999999 3 weeks ago
The Holy scriptures invite us to seek knowledge and understanding as hidden treasure.. Prov 2, 3. Also in the Holy Bible is Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. It is the knowledge of the truth that will set the world free... we invite all people to seek knowledge as hidden treasure
knowledge999999999 3 weeks ago
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone....
knowledge999999999 3 weeks ago
Eph 5:23 For the husmand is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. We believe in one faith and one baptism
knowledge999999999 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 p.s. Of course I`ve looked for explanations of the contradictions, but some of the ones I`ve heard don`t withstand simple investigation.
P.S. I`ve clearly defined the role of the Spirit and you have conveniently ignored it. Well done.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
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@supernovamike I saw a program about a Mormon who disappeared. Just vanished into thin air. Seeing that his family are devout Mormons, should they pray to their heavenly father for help? But if they don't get any help from him, do you think they didn't get an answer because heavenly father, being an exalted man with body parts, was sitting on the toilet relieving himself, or was he pro-creating with one of his many wives?
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 If you want, back up your claims for once and give me the book title, and maybe I`ll find time for it.
Don`t expect any missionaries to answer your question. If they are good missionaries they`ll know better than to waste time on you.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 You really would make a good Pharisee. You accuse me of closed-mindedness when you yourself are the posterboy of it. I`ve done my part to investigate the truth, and nothing but what I know has withstood the test.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike "You really would make a good Pharisee." Well I see that our conversation has gone to personal attacks. Allrighty, if that's the way you would like to end this, I'm game. I respond by stating that you are pretty tough behind your keyboard where you are very safe, but I highly doubt you would state this to my or any else's face. So keep believing that you will become a god someday and have never ending celestial sex with your many wives, but sure your mom isn't one of them.
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike That is of course you are into incest, are you? So sad that when you people who are in cults can't answer tough questions, you bring about the attacks, and then cry fowl when it's done to you. Poor wittle Mormon you are. "Of course I`ve looked for explanations of the contradictions, but some of the ones I`ve heard don`t withstand simple investigation." Well that's what you get for studying with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Oh My bad, your a Mormon, but you could pass...
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike for a JW, seeing that you both claim the exact same things. "Don`t expect any missionaries to answer your question." Oh I don't expect them too. They would probably give me the same garbage of an answer you gave me. My question was unimportant and a waste of your time according to you. Oh well, have fun becoming like your heavenly father. Keep in shape, for you are going to need it, you future sex machine you.
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 "don't expect any missionaries to answer your question"??? I actually laughed when I read that.
blackhawk917 2 weeks ago
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@blackhawk917 "don't expect any missionaries to answer your question"??? I actually laughed when I read that." Yes that is pretty hilarious. The willte missionaries didn't nor couldn't answer my question, just like a Jehovah Witness can't answer the tough questions without as Mormons do as well, fall back on their testimony which is completely worthless. And instead of saying they would look into it and get back to me with an answer, they folded like cheap suits and ran. Very typical.
TheJpgr1958 2 weeks ago
@cindyisa10 p.s. sorry to make you do all that work. I tried just posting the link, but Youtube seems to have a problem with pasting URLs into forum posts. Oh well. :P
But I hope that helps you understand better where I'm coming from.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
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@supernovamike I hope you had a great holiday. Thanks for your response to my questions on the spirit along with the "Preach My Gospel" reference. I'll look this material over as it will take a little time. Also, In the meantime, if you'd like, I can explain some of the Bible discrepencies such as the inscription (INRI), the NT misquoting of OT sciptures, and of course, Matt. 27:9 of Zechariah's prophecy to Jeremiah.
cindyisa10 3 weeks ago
@cindyisa10 To save space and better explain the Spirit, I'll point you to the "Preach My Gospel" manual, which is the basic manual of instruction for LDS missionaries.
Go to Google, type "Preach My Gospel", and click on the first link. On the site, click on the PDF for Chapter 4. For the most direct answer, read the section on pages 96 - 97. It also gives an extensive list of scriptures about the voice of the Spirit, although it is not a comprehensive account of all scriptures on the subject.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
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I asked the following question to 2 Mormon missionaries the other day, and they couldn't respond to it, so I would appreciate it if a Mormon reading this would give a bash. When you pray to your heavenly father, and you don't receive an answer, do you think you didn't get one because since your heavenly father was once a man who lived on a planet, that would mean he had genitals like a man, would he be preoccupied in answering you because he was sitting on the toilet relieving himself?
TheJpgr1958 4 weeks ago
I'm not a linguist. I can't provide all the grammatical explanations. What I know is more important than that. I know by the the Spirit the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and all that it entails. I'm sorry that you have been led to believe that the Spirit isn't good enough for you. If you will only trust your mind and the empirical evidence you can comprehend, you allow Satan to lead you wherever he wants. Only the Spirit can lead us to truth. If you've read the Bible, you should know that.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike One more thing. It would do you good to read the response given by cindyisa10 on the matter.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike And here's something I mentioned to you before for you to ponde-Since Christ used manuscript copies of the Old Testament-copies that were far removed from the original biblical documents, quoting them constantly, He trusted their reliability. From this, what does this tell you about Christ's attitude toward manuscript copies? Does this not indicate that manuscript copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively?
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
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@TheJpgr1958 "your church makes the claim, therefore she must prove it, and so far she hasen't."
Read the NT. You fit nicely into the shoes of the skeptics who constantly bombarded Christ with questions, demanding proof of His claims. I give you the same response that He gave them.
Mark 8:12 "And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a aign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation." (see also Matt. 12:39; John 4:48)
supernovamike 1 month ago
Us mormons has the true church of GOD!! we also HAVE!!!! another testament of GOD!!!!! During the time of joesph smith aka our first latter day saints profet witch was murdered by a mob of non-mormons BECAUSE!!! they were jealous and if the people who murdered them was a true christian they wouldʻnt murder a no one because thats one of the ten commandments of GOD!!!
KingKnight16 1 month ago
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MORMONISM IS NOT A CHRISTIAN RELIGION! FOLKS, BE CAREFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LEAD IN TO THE DECEPTION OF THIS PROVEN FALSE RELIGION!
I read this book and highly reccomend it for everyone who is looking in to this blasphemous religion that can take your soul to hell. The author grew up in the Mormon Church and it is a completely FALSE RELIGION! Read the book CAN MITT ROMNEY SERVE TWO MASTERS?
certainlytruthful 1 month ago
You shouldn't cherry pick the Apostle Pauls teaching. The apostle Paul also said that "if we or an angel from heaven preaches to you a different gospel other than the one that we preached to you let him be accursed" That would be describing the BOM. Paul also said "Lucifer masquerades as an "ANGEL OF LIGHT" Joseph Smith described Moroni as an "ANGEL OF LIGHT" That is probably why it is entrenched with freemasonry which openly serves their 'worshipful master Lucifer' As do mormons!
aimeecurry46 1 month ago
@aimeecurry46
about the Book of Mormon preaching a "different gospel," I'm going to have to disagree emphatically. I've read the Book of Mormon all the way through multiple times, and have done the same with the New Testament. The gospel is exactly the same. The "different gospel" came when the early church was overcome with apostasy and false doctrine -- the beginnings of which are extremely evident in the New Testament. The BoM's purpose is in part to correct the damage that was done.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "The BoM's purpose is in part to correct the damage that was done." And The Muslim will state that very same thing, except they would state The Quran corrected the damage that was done. And Mohammed came along in 600AD, way, way before Smith ever came on the scene with his so-called restoring of the Gospel. Also the JWS do exactly the same thing that Mormons do, so there is nothing unique to your claim. This has been going on for centuries.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958
...so?
Nothing that I said had anything to do with whether our claim was unique or not. The fact that other people have similar claims doesn't automatically prove the Book of Mormon false. What are you trying to say?
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike I believe you should really study the other groups I mentioned and read what they have stated concerning their group and their own books that either compliment or help correct The Bible. You will be amazed. With that stated, I would like to ask a question...The Mormon church states that The Bible is the Word of God, in so fat as it is correctly translated, yes? That would mean that there are passages within the Old and New Testament that are not correctly translated.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
Would you provide us with the passages from both the Old and New Testaments that are not correctly translated, the grammatical reasons why they are not correctly translated, and the correct translation of those passages? When I ask Mormon missionaries this question, I usually don't any response from them. Can you provide us with the answer?
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 Don't assume that I've never read anything about other religions--I do regularly. In fact, I really enjoy it, and I have great respect for many of the things that others have said and done. Personally, I'm most impressed with the Seventh-Day Adventists... but still, the more I read about others, the more convinced I become that the Book of Mormon is indeed the Word of God.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "Don't assume that I've never read anything about other religions--I do regularly." Then if that is true, you would realize that other religions, Islam, Roman Catholic, JWS, Oneness, Church's of Christ, all claim to be the one true church, and that your claim to be this one true church is not special to your group. The Mormon church does not have the "corner market" on Christianity, and more than these other groups do.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 As for the Bible translation, it would be foolish to believe that every existing translation of the Bible is equally pure. We use the King James Version because it reflects the original writings the best.
As for parts that have been mistranslated, I don't think there are as many as you seem to be implying. One is Luke 23:43 where Christ tells a thief that he would join him in paradise. We know it's a mistranslation because the thief has not yet met the requirements for paradise.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike Ummm, who is this "we" you speak of who knows Luke 23:43 is mistranslated? "We know it's a mistranslation because the thief has not yet met the requirements for paradise." All right, what are these "requirements" this thief would of had to do in order to be in Paradise? Also, please provide us with all of the rest of the passages from both the Old and New Testaments that are not correctly translated and the reasons.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "We" includes anyone who knows the requirements for entry into paradise, which are simply the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including (but not limited to) faith, repentence, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and other commandments. It would be more accurate if it said "spirit world." I know you want grammatical reasons, but I'm not that kind of Bible student. I focus on the teachings of the Bible, not on the way the words are put together.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "We" includes anyone who knows the requirements for entry into paradise, which are simply the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including (but not limited to) faith, repentence, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and other commandments." Well then that would include JWS, Roman Catholics, Oneness, Disciples of Christ etc. As was told to you before, these groups, all claiming to be the one true church, state and practice the same as Mormons do.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
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@TheJpgr1958 "As was told to you before, these groups, all claiming to be the one true church, state and practice the same as Mormons do."
I know and understand that LDS beliefs are not all completely unique. I never claimed otherwise, yet you insist on pointing that out. Why? You're beating a dead horse that never existed.
supernovamike 1 month ago
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@supernovamike "I know you want grammatical reasons, but I'm not that kind of Bible student." Well shouldn't you be? I mean, does not the grammer, syntax, context of of the Bible mean so little to you? "I focus on the teachings of the Bible, not on the way the words are put together." Then how do you know what the teachings of the Bible are if one does not study the words? So apparently all of those things I listed before mean nothing to you?
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike Alos, if as you stated Luke 23:43 IS mistranslated, how then should the passage read? Please give us the correct rendering of the text, the grammatical reason/reasons for it.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike "As for parts that have been mistranslated, I don't think there are as many as you seem to be implying." I'm not implying anything...your church, the Mormon church, states that the Bible is the word of God, in so far as it is correctly translated. Therefore, it's up to you to provide those who ask, the passages from the Bible that are not correctly translated. How many are in the Old Testament? How many from the New Testament? Do you have any idea? The reasons why etc.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 No, I cannot provide off the top of my head a list of all the mistranslations of the Bible. Firstly because there isn't room on these post boards, secondly because I have better things to do, and thirdly because that would be a huge waste of effort for me to scour the Bible looking for everything wrong with it. I don't have any obligation to provide this list you ask for, and I have even less desire to do so. When I study the Bible, I do it to learn the gospel. Not to find fault.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "No, I cannot provide off the top of my head a list of all the mistranslations of the Bible." And this does not surprise me one bit. All Mormon missionaries I ask can't do it either. It must not be that important to them or to you. But that does not answer the question which is if, as the Mormon church teaches, that there are passages in there Bible that are not correctly translated, how do you know which ones?
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "All Mormon missionaries I ask can't do it either. It must not be that important to them or to you."
You can't honestly expect every Latter-day Saint to walk around with an extensive list of such things in their heads. That's just ridiculous. And no, it's not that important to us that we're able to list all the things that other people do wrong. As I've said before, we strive to learn the gospel from the Bible, not to find all the ways that it's wrong. That would be a waste of time
supernovamike 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "if...there are passages in there Bible that are not correctly translated, how do you know which ones?"
The Church prints the KJV Bible with a remarkable system of footnotes, which include some alternate translations made by Joseph Smith as well as alternate translations from the original Greek/Hebrew text. Those notes can do a lot to help people understand passages that may not be translated perfectly. But I don't know of anyone who's created a complete list like the one you seek.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "I don't have any obligation to provide this list you ask for, and I have even less desire to do so." Oh my!! Would this be your response if you were a missionary and some one like myself had asked you the same question? I highly doubt it. You should have said was "You know, that's a good question. I'll try to find the answer to it, and get back to you as soon as I can." You see, the person asking the question would have more respect for you, unless respect means nothing to you.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "Would this be your response if you were a missionary and some one like myself had asked you the same question?"
I have been a missionary, and would have given the same answer. Hopefully the person I'm speaking to would be a little more understanding when I explain that such a list is a waste of time and effort, though. That's not our purpose as a Church, and it shouldn't be our purpose as missionaries. Elders should speak the truth, and that's what I'm doing.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "Hopefully the person I'm speaking to would be a little more understanding when I explain that such a list is a waste of time and effort," But you see, this is the problem. If an organization, The Mormon Church, makes claims like the one we have been discussing, then the attitude should not be a waste of time for you to find the answer for the person asking the question. And this is the exact same attitude I get when I talk to, for example, a JW.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike When I point to them the fact that their organization predicted the end of the world 7 different times, and of course it didn't come to pass, they pretty much state the same thing you have stated. The purpose of their church is to love people, don't bother with the past, for it's a waste of time to do so. And that's pretty much what these Mormon missionaries told me. Very sad indeed. But I will leave you with this...Jesus Himself whom you claim to believe and follow....
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike promised His followers that the Holy Spirit would work through individuals to provide an accurate recounting of the events of His life (John 14:26). And because of this I can trust the Bible as The Word of God. So again, if want to believe and claim that their are passage that are not correctly translated, then the burden of prove is on the one, you, making that assertion. And like Muslims, JWS, Oneness, etc. when asked for the evidence, you produce none.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike "Elders should speak the truth, and that's what I'm doing." Ummm, no you are dismissing an honest question as not being worthy of your time and which you will give no effort in trying to find an answer to, and that my friend is being inconsistent with what the Scripture teaches which is "to be ready to give an answer to those who ask you, for the faith and hope that is in you" (1 Peter 3:15). But then, this passage could not be translated correctly, right?
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 I've explained why an answer to your question is not important. I'm sure it would be possible to compile a list of the mistranslations, but it would be a waste of time because it diverts attention away from what it actually important. I offer a similar response when people ask me questions like "where is Kolob?" It just doesn't matter. LDS doctrine is founded on Christ, with the Book of Mormon as keystone. The things you focus on are only peripheral, so I don't dwell on them.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "The things you focus on are only peripheral, so I don't dwell on them." Well there you go. Much like a JW when they are faced with the fact of their false predictions for the end of the world, given through revelations by the way, they state the exact same thing. Oh well, I'll keep asking other Mormons that same question. Perhaps one day I'll get a half way decent response.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "Much like a JW when they are faced with the fact of their false predictions for the end of the world"
You're taking this way too seriously. Surely you suppose that false predictions of the end of the world are at least a little more serious than this list you're asking for. The fact that I as an individual am unable to instantly produce a comprehensive list of all the errors in the Bible is nowhere near as serious as false apocalyptic prophecy. But somehow I don't think you care.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 Understand that I don't blame you for asking this question. I know that it is an honest question, and I am not trying to dismiss it as much as I'm trying to dispel the false notion that all claims have to be empirically provable in order to be true. The gospel has never worked that way. LDS Missionaries don't set out to prove to people that their message is true, because that knowledge can only be revealed by the Holy Ghost. The Spirit is the only one who can establish these truths.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 btw, what you said about the Bible being written correctly is something that we don't disagree with. The inaccuracies were not penned by the original authors, they were created afterwards as the books went through the hands of wicked (or at least uninspired) men. The process is defined in prophecy by the prophet Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Read 1 Nephi 13:20-29; you may find it interesting, and it should help you better understand what we believe regarding this subject.
supernovamike 1 month ago
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@supernovamike "The inaccuracies were not penned by the original authors, they were created afterwards as the books went through the hands of wicked (or at least uninspired) men." Well again, much like you giving no prove to these so-called "mistranslations" of Bible passages, you should consider this....Because Christ raised absolutely no doubt about the adequacy of the Scripture as His contemporaries knew them, we can say without question that the first-century text of the Old Testament...
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
was a wholly adequate representation of the divine word originally given. Jesus regarded the extant copies of His day as to be just as authoritative in their message just as much as the originals were. He always appealed to them as authoritative. The respect He and His apostles held for the extant Old Testament text is an expression of the confidence in God's providential preservation of the copies and translations as substantially identical with the inspired originals.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
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@TheJpgr1958 God commanded J Smith to provide an Inspired Translation of the Bible (D&C 45:60-61, D&C 73:3–4, & D&C 93:53). It is clear from this and various journal entries that he was not just "making clarifications" in the Bible. He was "translating" it and restoring the many precious truths that were lost. For several reasons, the LDS church does NOT accept this translation as official. The RLDS Church (Community of Christ) published it in 1867. The passages in question are therein.
cindyisa10 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 History can prove the accuracy of Today's Biblical texts. Compare the Dead Sea Scrolls to today's OT. Every book was found except Ester. F Josephus lists the official OT books used at time of Christ which are the same books today. The early church fathers heavily quoted from OT/NT books in their works way before the Bible was even compiled in 3rd century. One can virtually build entire Bible from their quotes alone. Compare these quotes with today's Bible. Evidence cant be silenced.
cindyisa10 1 month ago
@cindyisa10 Yes I agree with you. But you can see that Mormons, like Muslims and other groups who suffer from the "true church syndrome," are asked to provide detailed reasons why these so-called passages that are not correctly translated, well, you can read what supernovamike stated. It's not that important to him, and it's a waste of time. But he claims to learn from the Bible. Oh well. "If you ask me, I could write a book."
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 Would this list you seek for be the only thing that would ever convince you that there is any validity to the LDS Church? You're looking for the wrong thing. Here's the problem: There is a way to know if LDS claims are true. That method is detailed in the scriptures (Moroni 10:3-5; John 16:13) but you aren't interested in that method. The problem is that you will only accept proof according to YOUR terms. You must submit to God's conditions if you want to learn His truths.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike Jesus Himself whom you claim to believe and follow, told His followers that the Holy Spirit would work through individuals to provide an accurate recounting of the events of His life (John 14:26). And because of this I can trust the Bible as The Word of God. I also quoted you 1 Peter 3:15. Now my question again to you is this: Are these passages correctly translated, or are they one of the many that are not? See, you tell me to read John 16:13 to know if the LDS claim is true.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 You already quoted John 14:26 to me and I already responded accordingly. You don't listen. Get off your high horse and pay attention to what I'm telling you. As I already said, we don't believe the mistakes were penned by the original authors, but that they arose during the Apostasy. And I still maintain that the Bible as it exists today cannot be inerrant given some of the blatant contraditions it contains, such as Acts 9:7 compared to Acts 22:9.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike It's very easy to accuse the Bible of inaccuracies, but it's quite another matter to prove it. Certain passages at 1st glance appear contradictory, but further investigation shows this isn't the case. People so often want to employ a different set of rules when it comes to the Bible, and to this I immediately object. If I apply this same standard to the BofM, I can find just as many alleged contradictions and alterations. By applying your logic, why should I trust the BofM?
cindyisa10 1 month ago
But because of your Church's claim of there being passages not correctly translated, how do you know this passage is correctly translated? Do you see the circle the Mormon church has put you in? You also stated that I'm taking this way too seriously. Umm, may I say the same can be said to you as a returned missionary. I mean, who in their right mind would take 2 years out of one's life to go knock on doors, proclaiming to be the one true church, and not take it seriously?
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 Also as I've said before, your idea of our view of the Bible is flawed. You seem to think that I see the Bible as a corrupted book that's completely loaded with mistakes and mistranslations. That's not at all true. The errors that are in it are not as major as you're implying. I study the Bible and learn the gospel from it. Every now and then I look at alternate translations to help clarify some passages, but by and large there is not that much wrong with it.
supernovamike 1 month ago
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@supernovamike "And I still maintain that the Bible as it exists today cannot be inerrant given some of the blatant contraditions it contains, such as Acts 9:7 compared to Acts 22:9." The word you should use is "apparent" contradictions. There is no contradiction between the verses you cite if one would take the time and study what the original Greek states. But as you stated to me previously, you are not a "grammarian" or a "linguistic," and seeing how you don't want to get into providing...
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
us with these so-called passages that are not correctly translated because they are unimportant and a waste of your time, then I highly doubt you would be interested in studying the original Greek. I could recommend you a excellent book on this subject, in where the author went through the entire Bible word for word and answered all of the "apparent" contradictions, but again, I doubt you would be interested. It would probably be boring to you.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 My final word to you is this: The Spirit has testified to me and to millions of others the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and all that it entails. A testimony of Christ, or of His gospel, does not come by grammar studies or empirical arguments. It comes only by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Hopefully someday you'll realize that. But if you continue accepting nothing but empirical evidence, you subject yourself to great spiritual damnation.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike Ahh yes your testimony. I was wondering when you would play that card. And that's exactly what those 2 missionaries did when I asked them to produce these so-called passages that are not correctly translated. They couldn't, and either could you. So what do Mormons do when faced with tough questions, they bear their testimony. By the way, other groups like JWS, Muslims etc., also have testimonies about their group being being the one true church, so yours does not mean much.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
But as one can see, you have not and won't provide us with this list of these incorrectly translated passages because for you my request is "both unreasonable and unimportant." And this is the same answer one would get when speaking to a Muslim. Oh well, I'll keep asking Mormons the question and perhaps one day I'll find a Mormon who would take the time to give me a straight answer. Until then, this claim by the Mormon church is completely a bogus claim, just like the Muslim, JW, Oneness, etc.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 You're wasting my time. You haven't even attempted a response to most of my points, and you will accept nothing except for your own view of reality. The only thing you have to fall back on is that one question (no matter how many times I've explained -- even using the Savior's words -- why it is unimportant), and you keep posting the exact same thing, almost word-for-word. Let me know if you have anything worthwhile to contribute, but if not, don't expect any more responses from me.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "You're wasting my time." Yep, that pretty much sums up my sentiments about this as well. And as for me asking the same question, it's because I have not received an answer. The only responses you gave me were that it's a waste of your time and unimportant. You did give me 2 passages in the book of Acts which to you contradict each other, and I responded by stating that the word is "apparent" contradictions. I also offered to give you the title of a good book on the subject....
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike where the author went through the entire Old and New Testament word for word and showed how their are no contradictions, but you would have to go to the original Greek language, and to you that would be unimportant and probably boring. But you have your testimony, so all will be fine. "But if you continue accepting nothing but empirical evidence," What?? (rolls eyes). Another dodge. Ok then, it's been fun. I'll keep asking other Mormons. Perhaps I'll get an answer some day.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike Also, I do hope you read the comments written to you by cindyisa10. She's spot on in her responses to you.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "who in their right mind would take 2 years out of one's life to go knock on doors, proclaiming to be the one true church, and not take it seriously?"
...what? Since when does "taking it seriously" translate into "being able to answer every insignificant little question about it"? I've explained to you why an answer to your question is both unreasonable and unimportant. You're confusing yourself if you don't think I take this seriously. If I don't, then why am I here now?
supernovamike 1 month ago
Would you state this to a JW who does the exact same thing? Remember, this is my soul we are talking about. So yes, I take the Bible, understanding the context, the grammer, VERY seriously. As for the rest of your comments, it just bolis down to this, when you are asked to provide the evidence showing the passages that are not correctly translated, like Muslims who state the same thing, you cannot. Remember, your church makes the claim, therefore she must prove it, and so far she hasen't.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
So if you ever do come with those passages, please feel free to tell us what they are, and the reasons why they are not correctly translated. Until then, this claim from your church will be considered a bogus claim, and one that can't be substantiated, no matter how much you believe it to be so. But I'll keep asking Mormon Missionaries. Maybe I'll find some one who does care enough about the question to look for the answer, not claiming it to be a waste of time and not important.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@TheJpgr1958 "Does this not indicate that manuscript copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively?"
Yes, they certainly can. But there's a big difference between "can" and "do." I again invite you to read 1 Nephi 13:20-29, and just consider the possibility. The Bible passed through the hands of apostates. Even its compilation was done outside of the Lord's organization of authority, and does not contain everything the Lord has said or will say.
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike Correct! The Bible doesn't contain everything the LORD says or will say. If it did, it would be infinite. You'd never be able to read it all. However, God did reveal EVERYTHING pertaining to your salvation and purpose in the Bible. It is GOD'S COMPLETE BLUEPRINT for your salvation. If you were an architect, you would provide a blueprint to a builder that contains EVERYTHING for the successful construction of a building. You wouldn't need to specify the brand of hammer/nails to use
cindyisa10 1 month ago
@cindyisa10 @cindyisa10 I agree with your point about Biblical contradictions. It is true that many will take certain things out of context, and that they aren't truly contradictory, despite what they seem. But I'm not talking aobut that, I'm talking about real factual contradictions that cannot be explained by any amount of grammar study or private interpretation.
I would give examples, but I have to go now. I'll be back sometime soon. Have a good day!
supernovamike 1 month ago
@supernovamike "I'm talking about real factual contradictions that cannot be explained by any amount of grammar study or private interpretation. I would give examples," And we can't wait to read them. I do hope you go in to detail about these so-called "factual" contractions for us.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike Sounds good! From reading this thread I see a different methodology is being employed here to ascertain truth that goes beyond or is used in addition to empirical evidence and study. This is why these points become matters of faith. Regarding this, could you please elaborate more on how the spirit confirms truth to you? In other words, how is this method used to determine truth? Is it some kind of vision, a voice, or some kind of feeling? You have a great day as well. :-)
cindyisa10 1 month ago
@cindyisa10 Don't expect any response from supernovamike. He's just a brain-washed Mormon who needs prayer. Just read his responses to the question I gave him. Pretty pathetic.
TheJpgr1958 4 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 I can understand your frustration. Let's hear him out and give him time to explain his points. That's only fair. I want to understand his 'spirit' method and how this method led him to the LDS sect and not RLDS or FLDS sects since all these sects validate the BofM via the spirit. How does he know this spiritual prompting is from God and not from another source? Finally, I don't want to prove us right and him wrong. That's not my intention. Truth will set us, him, or both free.
cindyisa10 4 weeks ago
@cindyisa10 Hi again! Sorry for the delay, but the holidays were busy and I've had problems with my internet connection.
I said I'd give a few examples of Bible discrepencies, so I'll do that first.
Some may have explanations, such as Acts 9:7 to Acts 22:9 and Mark 15:25 to John 19:14.
But others I've found seem unexplainable, such as the inscription on the cross, the NT misquoting of OT sciptures, and most notably, the incorrect citing in Matt. 27:9 of Zechariah's prophecy to Jeremiah.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike "I said I'd give a few examples of Bible discrepencies," Oh my Lord. You went from apparent Bible mistranslations to now apparent discrepancies. 2 totally different things, but both answerable. "Some may have explanations, such as Acts 9:7 to Acts 22:9 and Mark 15:25 to John 19:14." "SOME!!" Have you even read any of the answers given to show that these passages are "apparent" contradictions? I very highly doubt it, and even if you did, it wouldn't satisfy you.
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@TheJpgr1958 "You went from apparent Bible mistranslations to now apparent discrepancies"
False. I was talking to cindyisa10 about contradictions. That's what I said I'd give, and that's what I gave. You've proved yet again that you still don't pay attention.
If you want to give me the name of that book you're free to do so rather than just talk about it. But no, I probably won't read it simply because I don't have the time or money to read every book that gets recommended to me.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike "If you want to give me the name of that book you're free to do so rather than just talk about it. But no, I probably won't read it simply because I don't have the time or money to read every book that gets recommended to me." Oh my my my!!! This makes no sense, just like your response to my question was. What would be the point of giving you the title of the book when you then admit you won't read it? If you really want to study these things, you WOULD find the time.
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
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@supernovamike "If you want to give me the name of that book you're free to do so rather than just talk about it. But no, I probably won't read it simply because I don't have the time or money to read every book that gets recommended to me." Oh my my my!!! This makes no sense, just like your response to my question was. What would be the point of giving you the title of the book when you then admit you won't read it? If you really want to study these things, you WOULD find the time.
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike And as for money, umm ever heard of the library? Oh I know, you don't have the time to go to one right? Waste of time and it's unimportant to you right? No money involved in getting a Library card. It's free. (rolls eyes) Your mind is already made up, so what's the point. Just lame excuses from you. Sorry to have wasted your time. So I'll keep asking Mormon missionaries my question, and maybe one day I'll get a intelligent response to it.
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
@supernovamike Before I go on, would you even be interested in the title of the book I've been recommending to you, where the author went through the entire Old and New Testaments, word for word and showed that all of these apparent contradictions or now discrepancies can be answered? It even goes in depth in answering, according to you, "the so-called incorrect citing in Matt. 27:9 of Zechariah's prophecy to Jeremiah," as well as "the inscription on the cross."
TheJpgr1958 3 weeks ago
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supernovamike 3 weeks ago
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@TheJpgr1958 Of course I have researched possible explanations of these contradictions; that's why I said that some of them may have explanations. I have also heard an attempted explanation about Matt. 27:9, but it was a pretty pathetic stretch that didn't withstand even the simplest investigation. You're free to share with me what you think the explanation is if you want, but if it's the same as the ones I've heard, you would be right in that it wouldn't satisfy me.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
@cindyisa10 As for receiving truth by the Spirit, that question is one of the most important, but it's also one of the most difficult--not because it is a challenge to decipher the Spirit, but because we can't explain exactly how the Spirit feels. It's like trying to explain what salt tastes like. It's very difficult unless the other person has experienced it as well. It is crucial for people to recognize the Spirit, because it is the source of ALL truth, as the scriptures point out clearly.
supernovamike 3 weeks ago
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@TheJpgr1958 "The respect He and His apostles held for the extant Old Testament text is an expression of the confidence in God's providential preservation of the copies and translations as substantially identical with the inspired originals."
I'm curious... then why is it that almost every time Christ or his Apostles quotes an Old Testament scripture, they quote it incorrectly? There IS inconsistency within the Bible. Tons of it. The Bible cannot be inerrant given the contradictions within it.
supernovamike 1 month ago
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This then shows the Bible itself indicates that copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively. Now if want to still believe that this can't be and that "inaccuracies.... were created afterwards as the books went through the hands of wicked (or at least uninspired) men," then once again, the burdun of prove is on you to show these passage that are not correctly translated. But to you, "It just doesn't matter," and are "peripheral."
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
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cindyisa10 1 month ago
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@supernovamike "When I study the Bible, I do it to learn the gospel. Not to find fault." Not to find fault eh? But before this you stated: "No, I cannot provide off the top of my head a list of all the mistranslations of the Bible." You state first that there are mistranslations in Bible, but then you say you don't try to find fault. This makes no sense. Oh well, I'll keep asking the next pair of Mormon missionaries the question. Maybe one day my question will get an answer.
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
@supernovamike Sorry about that, I wrote "in so fat"... it should read "in so far."
TheJpgr1958 1 month ago
My goodness that Mormon dude just irritates me to know end. How did this guy ever pass a test in grade school? What would we just say "that it is all how one interprets it and God gives me my answers-," he would say, but the teacher would say "but you didn't get an answer right."
That is like arguing with a kid about whether getting to eat a cookie before bed, after all the parents said that it was not O.K. but somehow the kid still wants to think the parents said yes....
mamaschristmasbunny 1 month ago
I am going off on a interesting tangent
In the hymn "If you could hie to Kolob in the Twinkling of an eye"(This song was written by a close associated of Joseph in 1835, as far as my knowledge goes, the lyrics were never changed)
This is interesting to me because the second verse begins "Or see the grand beggining where space did not extend".
SO PLZ CORRECT ME IF YOU CAN, but doesn't this correlate with and predate the Big Bang Theory even though this is supposed to be embarrasing :)
incrediblejourney 2 months ago
@incrediblejourney
I don't really understand your question... but I'll try to answer anyway. LDS theology does not state clearly whether or not the Big Bang theory has any validity. Such things have not been revealed, and while discussion about the deep mysteries of the universe is very interesting, it is speculative.
supernovamike 1 month ago
All the Christian believe in the traditional way which most so called christians are not the true god believer they go to church and play as a great pretender how many so called true chrisitan is a god believer or just a pretender and tells people that he or she is a believer only God knows!!
Deathdig999 2 months ago
@jedilds
which jesus?
jesus who is and was always almighty God? One with the father and holy Spirit for all eternity?
Or jesus, who some claim, is one of many gods who had been men at one point and earned godhood becoming gods over their own planet?
Myhopeisinhim 2 months ago
Aren't Mormons Christians? The last time I checked with my LDS friends, they are true Christians like I'm true to my Hindu/Islam faith. May I express my exact sentiment of this whole ordeal in the words of my leader, Ghandi: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” To me, most Christians are hypocrites. The true ones are the ones who really follow Christ shows in their demeanor and actions. My LDS friends are true Christians. :)
dl8a 2 months ago
I am christian, bks I believe in one God, who was, who is, and who will be, in other words, immutable God, allways-existing God. Self-suficient God. Absolute in any concept.
Mormons are friends of evolutionist, they believe that man become God, and God as consequence has a higher God than HIM. Relative God. Ridiculous Religion. Human inmoral mind.
xchris1800 2 months ago
@ThumbsUpForPeace and a Racist ( Remember the Mormons thought that blacks were cursed, but reversed when they were sued), and a False Prophet!
Arceic 2 months ago
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Mormanism vs Christianity? Santa vs The Easter Bunny? What a joke and a very disturbing species we truly are.
Ryfultron 2 months ago
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Ryfultron 2 months ago
Awesome!!
Shutterbug1000 2 months ago
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For anyone who wants to know the real truth about Mormons, please go to Mormon(dot)org. There you can view the profiles of hundreds of members of the church, who talk about their experiences, beliefs, etc., and discuss why they are Mormon. I also have a profile on the site. To view it, just type "Terry" and "Omaha" in the search box. I am a Mormon by choice, and I tell you why. :o)
JediLDS 2 months ago
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JediLDS 2 months ago
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JediLDS 2 months ago
Walter Martin is rather ungracious.
StoneCampbellforLife 3 months ago
Joseph Smith was a freemason too.....
PdubzCrew 3 months ago
The Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses are the two weirdest, most modern cults ever.
You'd think people would know better, but some folks actually ARE in those sects...
ChrisDaron 3 months ago
Part II
These Mormon gentleman speak of efficacious, which means successful in producing a desired or intended result. Interesting how they use the word that exposes their intentions. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck...Not so! If there is a devil and we all know there is, his job is to snare you with a counterfeit. Christians are to grow in his word, so you will not fall for the deceptions of Satan!
We're not as gullible as they suppose!
1LonePuma 3 months ago
@1LonePuma but you are as gullible as the writer of bible supposed the followers shall be. there were many religions even before christianity that claimed that god exists and how earth was created.. bible was obviously inspired from them.
MrRorschachable 3 months ago
Part 1: True Christians follow the Word of God, the Bible, period! Mormon’s show they use the Bible, but after you take the bate, they bring out the Book of Mormons, negating the Bible. Christ warned us of those following anything other then his word! Jesus teaches us that the truth shall set you free, there can't be two truths! Christians exclusively trust the living word of God and are Not as gullible as they suppose.
1LonePuma 3 months ago
@1LonePuma The Book of Mormon testifies that Jesus is the Christ. We don't negate the Bible. I don't know where you got your information from, but it's wrong.
JediLDS 2 months ago
@JediLDS: I don't know what to tell you, but if your really serious about the Lord, perhaps you could do a search on Google and find these answers to how it became a cult. You can never go wrong in finding the truth about your affiliation with the Mormons. I don't mean to sound insulting, but to offer you truth without you needing to justify your position. This is another reason being baptized in the Holy Ghost is of the up-most importance, as He is the Spirit of Truth and leads us into truth.
1LonePuma 2 months ago
@JediLDS: I don't make light of my comment nor do I have an ax to grind, but I choose to follow the word of God, Jesus, and not Joseph Smith. Why someone would follow a man instead of Christ I'll never know. The book of Mormons is and was unnecessary, but if you choose to follow it, you can explain how he supersedes the Written Word of God...the Bible to the Lord.
1LonePuma 2 months ago
@1LonePuma Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. That's why he was followed, and is revered today as a prophet. As for the Book of Mormon, it does not supersede the Bible, but is a companion to it and is a second witness of Jesus Christ. It tells of Jesus' visit to the Americas after his resurrection.
JediLDS 2 months ago
@JediLDS: So you say he was a prophet, however, true prophets stick to the written word of God, not a companion book. It's obvious your religion places Mr. Smith above Jesus Christ who is the Word of God. Therefore, a Mormons can never be considered as a Christian. Mormon's do not recognize the Holy Ghost either, allowing him to lead and bring people into the truth of the word. Religion is a dangerous word, where to be Christ like is about a personal relationship, which you've yet to experience.
1LonePuma 2 months ago
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JediLDS 2 months ago
@1LonePuma Your lack of understanding of LDS doctrine and beliefs is showing, my friend. Mormons do not place Joseph Smith above Jesus Christ. Also your statement about Mormons not recognizing the Holy Ghost is totally false, also. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead, along with God the Father and Jesus Christ. Therefore, why wouldn't we recognize him? The Book of Mormon states that the Holy Ghost is God's witness for truth. Just a suggestion, but you need to get more education...
JediLDS 2 months ago
@cont...) about what Mormons REALLY believe before you do anymore posting on these sites. It does your case no good to be posting false information about a religion you obviously know very little about. No slam intended, accusations need to be backed up by factual proof, of which you have provided none.
JediLDS 2 months ago
@1LonePuma it is because of the Holy Ghost that I know the Book of Mormon is true. Reading it, study and prayer, and a witness from the Holy Ghost led me to be a Mormon by choice. My wife had much the same experience before we met and were married. Moroni in the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:4-5) promises that those who read and pray about it, will receive a witness of it's truth from the Holy Ghost.
JediLDS 2 months ago
@JediLDS: Thanks for proving my point. Now try finding that same scripture in the word of God! Moroni, what a joke! I'm afraid that what your listening to is not of the Holy Ghost, he only refers to the Written Word of God, in the BIBLE, nothing else. Already you've proven my point, but if you choose to be deceived, that's your business. God doesn't tell you one thing and someone else something entirely different. this is how we know we're correct, he changes for no one, but you should know that
1LonePuma 2 months ago
@1LonePuma claims: " I'm afraid that what your listening to is not of the Holy Ghost, he only refers to the Written Word of God, in the BIBLE, nothing else."
Now there is a statement that you cannot prove. The Holy Ghost it not confined to what's in the Bible. The Holy Ghost can act as a witness for the truth, no matter where that truth may be found. However, I always respect a person's right to be wrong about LDS beliefs and doctrine.
JediLDS 2 months ago
@1LonePuma Here it is in the Bible: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:5-6) If we lack wisdom about something (truth of Book of Mormon, for example), we can ask of God, and it WILL be given to us if we ask in faith. That's exactly what I did.
JediLDS 2 months ago
@JediLDS: I do believe you've been duped! God would never ever go against his own word, that doesn't even make sense. You can justify your book all you want, but don't blame God. The whole point on sending the Holy Ghost was to lead us into truth, giving us discernment, etc., which you have neither, sorry to say. But a wise man will listen to reason and not continue his path of deception. I have no reason to lie, but I am simply throwing you a life vest...put it on least you drown in stupidity!
1LonePuma 2 months ago