@rrawwbb It's directly related to the idea of depressive realism. The depressed individual takes responsibility and blames himself, while the delusory person will blame everything on others on unfair circumstances. You mentioned that young children are more vulnerable: this is true. The first years of life are usually what determines whether you'll have depression later because your mind does so much growing here. Teenage years also are important.
Oh yes, that is another thing. A happy person fails a math test and says "I didn't get enough sleep" or "it wasn't my fault"... The depressed person says "I am just stupid" and "my mind is inferior"...
@DespairingBeing I would categorize those reactions as outward vs. inward blame. Depressed people tend to direct blame inward. I think that's pretty undebatable. Blame is a slippery thing to pin down, as we all know. I know when I allow myself to blame myself, I usually feel depressed. Is there a way to free ourselves from false blame? Should people who are truly at fault feel depressed (guilty blame) as an exercise in moral conscience? Young children are especially vulnerable to this pathology.
The realist realizes that human beings are shells of flesh moving through the universe serving their purpose (reproduction) without question or free-will, and that the reason for survival is survival. The deusory person will, again, invent religion and "love" to defend them from fact, and dress up the truth to bring meaning to their lives, when they are really just the puppets of Nature serving her purpose without question. (This just explains the extremes; other examples exist)
@DespairingBeing Genereally, I must agree with you. However I've found that some people see reality as utterly inspiring. One of my favorite examples is the physicist Richard Feynman (there are some great youtube interviews of him). Of course I don't know how well he sleeps at night, or if he has an inner discontent that gnaws at his core....
@DespairingBeing ...my limited intelligence requires that I accept certain [usually unidentified] assumptions. If/when we learn to question assumptions, we are faced with choosing which assumptions to question. Do we question those that make us feel better, feel worse, not feel at all? How do we decided which assumptions to question when we believe that it's necessary to question all assumptions indiscrimentantly? Do we simply question the first ones we can think of? Making decisions is hard!
Firstly, there is only realism and delusion. "Depressive realism" is so-termed because reality is always depressing.
The realist says that the human brain is composed of neurons, and all thoughts and consciousness are based on electrical impulses and chemicals, and that when the brain ceases to function there is no consciousness/thoughts/emotion. The delusory individual will invent religion as a defense mechanism to validate their lives and give them meaning.
Thank you for your comment! I haven't heard from anyone on this topic for a while now. If I may say, I'm not rejecting all happiness, but you're right, I am linking some instances of happiness directly to delusion. I'm entertaining this idea (that happiness often has its roots in delusion) in contrast to my topic in order to clarify what I'm talking about. I certainly don't want to conclude that all happiness is delusional. That's too nihilistic for me :) . Great comment! Thank you!
Have you read "The Human Evasion" by Celia Green by chance? You can read it online or get it in paperback. It's entertaining and clever. Almost along the lines of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but written by a psychologist. Another good read is "Stumbling Upon Happiness" by Daniel Gilbert. Sorry to answer your question with book referrals, but you ask really good questions!
I just "stumbled" on this...I have to modify the link in order to post it. Very interesting! dub dub dub.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html
@FrazzleAndTheWolf I think he's talking more about how people are bad at predicting what will make them happy in the future. The pre-frontal cortex may be an experience simulator, but it's very bad at actually predicting what will make us truly happy (hence the book title "Stumbling Upon Happiness"), He's implying that happiness can only be stumbled upon. In this sense happiness is more of a gift than a goal. I find this comforting. How would you describe genuine happiness?
Great video. Just learned about depressive realism while i was searching information about pessimism and stuff like that. This theme is close to me because my whole life i've been depressed but now im starting to accept it as a part of who i am. Sometimes i feel that i need to make some possitive ilussions when i face with something that is meaningless and unjust, but im too logical and i suffer from that, but at least im not fooling myself.
Thank you for your video. During the past 2 years, I've really gone through the most difficult times, but through them, I've made myself into a better person than before. It is amazing what a person can bring out of themselves through a period of suffering. I am glad that someone like you has made this video. I have a feeling that I might be a bit depressed again, due to various recent events. Whats the best way to keep depression from coming back in your opinion?
Awesome! Thanks for your comment! Best way in my opinion...? Tough one... because I think it's different for everyone. Some nuts-and-bolts advice would be to eat right, get enough sleep, and exercise (what I call the "three pillars"). I heard that chewing gum can help! Seems strange, but I like gum anyways, so I took this advice. Oh, and don't listen to mainstream news (probably the most sound advice I could possibly give) - except for this: Don't judge yourself, just accept yourself!
I've had a horrible experience with depression and that event has changed my life ever since. I have researched depressive realism and I think I can diagnose myself with it. It's intriguing.
I got put in a hospital for this. I'm under 18 though, so nothing I could do about it. It's obvious that people push them self into happiness. I hate life, and that wont change, whether I try to push myself into happiness or not. I feel that I'm wasting my time on Earth, and I feel that I'm pathetic for admitting this all on YouTube.
Fuck it, I need to sleep. Comment back if you feel you have time.
Are you kidding - I'm definitely commenting back on a posting like this! And, are you kidding - youtube is just a stupid word...a handle...a tool. If you're pathetic (which isn't even possible from my point of view), it's not from posting about it on youtube! I'd have called it quits years ago if it weren't for certain movies, books, people, and even youtube videos, which I guess is what inpired me to make one....
... If you tell people they only look at the bright side they [may] say - "that's right, and I'm right for doing so". If you tell people they are deluding themselves, they'll [likely] say "no I'm not". This behavior has perplexed me all my life...
...Suffice it to say for now, I find limited enjoyment in life, but enjoyment nonetheless. I fixate my mind's eye here. I'll have to take reality a little bit at a time, if not by choice (Ha! - what is choice anyways!), by necessity. Cognitive reconciliation will have to come later, if ever.
Thanks sincerely for the comment - best wishes for your immediate and long-term future.
Good video. I think this is an important topic that deserves more attention. A psych prof who knows Bandura (self-efficacy) told me that B. was against the idea of defensive pessimism, but to me the real conflict is bet. self-efficacy & depressive realism: How does one maximize adaptive potential, if you will, if no degree of self-deception, however arguably benign, is permissible? Not an easy problem...
What a beautiful way to articulate the problem! Maximization is by nature subject to constraints. Isn't it the case that improvements in one area require sacrifices in others? Still, I hope we are both up for the challenge!
Interesting point you raise: At any point in time, we can't cast judgements upon the future, but we can exercise the freedom to shape it. Touché. I also like your emphasis on objectivity. Thanks for your comments!
Fair enough. Thanks for your insightful comment. I'm going to ask you this: Is there any reality (personal or societal) so grim that full-on depression is the natural (even healthy) response?
Thanks for your reply. Have you tried either meditation or yoga? I have heard something similar which lead me to try them out for a little while. Yoga work wonders for my joints and back! But I began seeing meditation as a crutch for my mind, and I wanted to (and felt I ought to) be able to get along without it.
Even if depression may be linked in some to a more "accurate" or "realistic" perspective of life and reality, it doesn't necessarily follow that depression itself is a truer/realistic/more valid response to the situation.
I agree. "Depressive" realism would only be a subset of depression cases. The book by Celia Green sounds interesting, thanks for the lead. Myself, my brain thinks reality is a function of accessibility and verifiability to all. Of course accessibility and verifiability would be defined by consensus, so ultimately reality would be what we decide it is - a shared brain pattern perhaps.
"Human beings live in a state of mind called 'sanity' on a small planet in space. They are not quite sure whether the space around them is infinite or not (either way it is unthinkable). If they think about time, they find it inconceivable that it had a beginning. It is also inconceivable that it did not have a beginning. Thoughts of this kind are not disturbing to 'sanity', which is obviously a remarkable phenomenon and deserving more recognition."
Where the line drawn between truth and alleviation of pain? If pain reduction is the ultimate goal is it ok to propogate delusion in the name of therapy? I'm another who is also quite skeptical and cautious with psychiatry and psychology, some of their features can look like a secular priesthood, a moral guardian in an age that many feel is under attack from relativism.
But what is reality, what is being realistic, what is being in touch with reality? It can all become very philosophical and difficult from that perspective. Who decides what is real and true? Psychiatrists? Majority of society?
Now about 'depressive realism'. I agree that people who are so-called depressed usually are more in tune with seeing this oppressive system for what it is. But many are NOT aware, and as said are told they have disease that needs drugs.
I DONT feel then that feeling low is natural. rather it is usually only alternative in a feeling of hopless situation. SO--we must look AT what the culture is we are living in. IS IT healthy? I say a big NO it aint!
OK my thoughts in response. First it is most very important I state that mental illness is the myth of the modern age. So for example, when the pharmaceutical industry/bio-psychiatrists claim 'depression' is a disease, there is no scientific proof of this whatsoever! Same wih the other so-called mental illnesses. However, this is NOT to say that people do not manifest various forms of behaviour like distress, visions,
I highly agree with this. Psychology and psychaitry (as most if not all social sciences) are "cargo cult" sciences at best and are not universally verifiable by controlled experiment.
@rrawwbb It's directly related to the idea of depressive realism. The depressed individual takes responsibility and blames himself, while the delusory person will blame everything on others on unfair circumstances. You mentioned that young children are more vulnerable: this is true. The first years of life are usually what determines whether you'll have depression later because your mind does so much growing here. Teenage years also are important.
DespairingBeing 2 months ago
Oh yes, that is another thing. A happy person fails a math test and says "I didn't get enough sleep" or "it wasn't my fault"... The depressed person says "I am just stupid" and "my mind is inferior"...
People hide from the truth all the time...
DespairingBeing 2 months ago
@DespairingBeing I would categorize those reactions as outward vs. inward blame. Depressed people tend to direct blame inward. I think that's pretty undebatable. Blame is a slippery thing to pin down, as we all know. I know when I allow myself to blame myself, I usually feel depressed. Is there a way to free ourselves from false blame? Should people who are truly at fault feel depressed (guilty blame) as an exercise in moral conscience? Young children are especially vulnerable to this pathology.
rrawwbb 2 months ago
The realist realizes that human beings are shells of flesh moving through the universe serving their purpose (reproduction) without question or free-will, and that the reason for survival is survival. The deusory person will, again, invent religion and "love" to defend them from fact, and dress up the truth to bring meaning to their lives, when they are really just the puppets of Nature serving her purpose without question. (This just explains the extremes; other examples exist)
DespairingBeing 5 months ago
@DespairingBeing Genereally, I must agree with you. However I've found that some people see reality as utterly inspiring. One of my favorite examples is the physicist Richard Feynman (there are some great youtube interviews of him). Of course I don't know how well he sleeps at night, or if he has an inner discontent that gnaws at his core....
rrawwbb 5 months ago
@DespairingBeing ...my limited intelligence requires that I accept certain [usually unidentified] assumptions. If/when we learn to question assumptions, we are faced with choosing which assumptions to question. Do we question those that make us feel better, feel worse, not feel at all? How do we decided which assumptions to question when we believe that it's necessary to question all assumptions indiscrimentantly? Do we simply question the first ones we can think of? Making decisions is hard!
rrawwbb 5 months ago
Firstly, there is only realism and delusion. "Depressive realism" is so-termed because reality is always depressing.
The realist says that the human brain is composed of neurons, and all thoughts and consciousness are based on electrical impulses and chemicals, and that when the brain ceases to function there is no consciousness/thoughts/emotion. The delusory individual will invent religion as a defense mechanism to validate their lives and give them meaning.
DespairingBeing 5 months ago
The only problem I have with the theory is that it seems to reject all happiness as delusion.
As someone with clinical depression who can barely get out of bed in the morning, I find this hard to accept.
FrazzleAndTheWolf 7 months ago
Thank you for your comment! I haven't heard from anyone on this topic for a while now. If I may say, I'm not rejecting all happiness, but you're right, I am linking some instances of happiness directly to delusion. I'm entertaining this idea (that happiness often has its roots in delusion) in contrast to my topic in order to clarify what I'm talking about. I certainly don't want to conclude that all happiness is delusional. That's too nihilistic for me :) . Great comment! Thank you!
rrawwbb 7 months ago
@rrawwbb What kind of instances of happiness would you link directly to delusion? Not being snide, just want to know.
FrazzleAndTheWolf 7 months ago
Have you read "The Human Evasion" by Celia Green by chance? You can read it online or get it in paperback. It's entertaining and clever. Almost along the lines of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but written by a psychologist. Another good read is "Stumbling Upon Happiness" by Daniel Gilbert. Sorry to answer your question with book referrals, but you ask really good questions!
rrawwbb 7 months ago
I just "stumbled" on this...I have to modify the link in order to post it. Very interesting! dub dub dub.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html
rrawwbb 7 months ago
@rrawwbb That's interesting, but how does that link to my question? :P
FrazzleAndTheWolf 7 months ago
@rrawwbb Never mind, I get what you're pointing at now.
The problem I have with his theory is that how does he know people are faking happiness? Their fulfillment could be genuine.
FrazzleAndTheWolf 7 months ago
@FrazzleAndTheWolf I think he's talking more about how people are bad at predicting what will make them happy in the future. The pre-frontal cortex may be an experience simulator, but it's very bad at actually predicting what will make us truly happy (hence the book title "Stumbling Upon Happiness"), He's implying that happiness can only be stumbled upon. In this sense happiness is more of a gift than a goal. I find this comforting. How would you describe genuine happiness?
rrawwbb 7 months ago
Great video. Just learned about depressive realism while i was searching information about pessimism and stuff like that. This theme is close to me because my whole life i've been depressed but now im starting to accept it as a part of who i am. Sometimes i feel that i need to make some possitive ilussions when i face with something that is meaningless and unjust, but im too logical and i suffer from that, but at least im not fooling myself.
indiekidnirvana 11 months ago
Thank you for your video. During the past 2 years, I've really gone through the most difficult times, but through them, I've made myself into a better person than before. It is amazing what a person can bring out of themselves through a period of suffering. I am glad that someone like you has made this video. I have a feeling that I might be a bit depressed again, due to various recent events. Whats the best way to keep depression from coming back in your opinion?
tr4nscend 1 year ago
Awesome! Thanks for your comment! Best way in my opinion...? Tough one... because I think it's different for everyone. Some nuts-and-bolts advice would be to eat right, get enough sleep, and exercise (what I call the "three pillars"). I heard that chewing gum can help! Seems strange, but I like gum anyways, so I took this advice. Oh, and don't listen to mainstream news (probably the most sound advice I could possibly give) - except for this: Don't judge yourself, just accept yourself!
rrawwbb 1 year ago
@rrawwbb thanks for that last line... wrote it on my whiteboard. :)
tr4nscend 1 year ago
I've had a horrible experience with depression and that event has changed my life ever since. I have researched depressive realism and I think I can diagnose myself with it. It's intriguing.
ErickaSpiritCaster 1 year ago
Thanks for the comment. I truly hope you find solace, or rather, solace finds you.
rrawwbb 1 year ago
Hey, props.
I got put in a hospital for this. I'm under 18 though, so nothing I could do about it. It's obvious that people push them self into happiness. I hate life, and that wont change, whether I try to push myself into happiness or not. I feel that I'm wasting my time on Earth, and I feel that I'm pathetic for admitting this all on YouTube.
Fuck it, I need to sleep. Comment back if you feel you have time.
ericletsbang 2 years ago
Are you kidding - I'm definitely commenting back on a posting like this! And, are you kidding - youtube is just a stupid word...a handle...a tool. If you're pathetic (which isn't even possible from my point of view), it's not from posting about it on youtube! I'd have called it quits years ago if it weren't for certain movies, books, people, and even youtube videos, which I guess is what inpired me to make one....
rrawwbb 2 years ago
... If you tell people they only look at the bright side they [may] say - "that's right, and I'm right for doing so". If you tell people they are deluding themselves, they'll [likely] say "no I'm not". This behavior has perplexed me all my life...
rrawwbb 2 years ago
...Suffice it to say for now, I find limited enjoyment in life, but enjoyment nonetheless. I fixate my mind's eye here. I'll have to take reality a little bit at a time, if not by choice (Ha! - what is choice anyways!), by necessity. Cognitive reconciliation will have to come later, if ever.
Thanks sincerely for the comment - best wishes for your immediate and long-term future.
rrawwbb 2 years ago
@ericletsbang hi, im also under 18 and have been in the hospital too. i really need someone to talk to. please talk to me.
tokiopanda 1 year ago
Good video. I think this is an important topic that deserves more attention. A psych prof who knows Bandura (self-efficacy) told me that B. was against the idea of defensive pessimism, but to me the real conflict is bet. self-efficacy & depressive realism: How does one maximize adaptive potential, if you will, if no degree of self-deception, however arguably benign, is permissible? Not an easy problem...
wrdraper 2 years ago
What a beautiful way to articulate the problem! Maximization is by nature subject to constraints. Isn't it the case that improvements in one area require sacrifices in others? Still, I hope we are both up for the challenge!
Thank you for your comment.
rrawwbb 2 years ago
Interesting point you raise: At any point in time, we can't cast judgements upon the future, but we can exercise the freedom to shape it. Touché. I also like your emphasis on objectivity. Thanks for your comments!
rrawwbb 3 years ago
Fair enough. Thanks for your insightful comment. I'm going to ask you this: Is there any reality (personal or societal) so grim that full-on depression is the natural (even healthy) response?
rrawwbb 3 years ago
Thanks for your reply. Have you tried either meditation or yoga? I have heard something similar which lead me to try them out for a little while. Yoga work wonders for my joints and back! But I began seeing meditation as a crutch for my mind, and I wanted to (and felt I ought to) be able to get along without it.
rrawwbb 4 years ago
Even if depression may be linked in some to a more "accurate" or "realistic" perspective of life and reality, it doesn't necessarily follow that depression itself is a truer/realistic/more valid response to the situation.
moopoo23 4 years ago
I agree. "Depressive" realism would only be a subset of depression cases. The book by Celia Green sounds interesting, thanks for the lead. Myself, my brain thinks reality is a function of accessibility and verifiability to all. Of course accessibility and verifiability would be defined by consensus, so ultimately reality would be what we decide it is - a shared brain pattern perhaps.
rrawwbb 4 years ago
"Human beings live in a state of mind called 'sanity' on a small planet in space. They are not quite sure whether the space around them is infinite or not (either way it is unthinkable). If they think about time, they find it inconceivable that it had a beginning. It is also inconceivable that it did not have a beginning. Thoughts of this kind are not disturbing to 'sanity', which is obviously a remarkable phenomenon and deserving more recognition."
moopoo23 4 years ago
"The Human Evasion" by Celia Green explores some of these issues. It's free and online, just do a search. A sample:
moopoo23 4 years ago
Where the line drawn between truth and alleviation of pain? If pain reduction is the ultimate goal is it ok to propogate delusion in the name of therapy? I'm another who is also quite skeptical and cautious with psychiatry and psychology, some of their features can look like a secular priesthood, a moral guardian in an age that many feel is under attack from relativism.
moopoo23 4 years ago
But what is reality, what is being realistic, what is being in touch with reality? It can all become very philosophical and difficult from that perspective. Who decides what is real and true? Psychiatrists? Majority of society?
moopoo23 4 years ago
continues) so instead of studying ill health, call i what you will. we must study health. I believe Maslow did this!
Find OUT what it means to live a healthy life. NOT being dependent on a system that is designed to depress us ;-)
zezt 4 years ago
Well put, I highly agree. Did Maslow mention toiletries on his hierarchical pyramid scheme?
rrawwbb 4 years ago
continues)
Now about 'depressive realism'. I agree that people who are so-called depressed usually are more in tune with seeing this oppressive system for what it is. But many are NOT aware, and as said are told they have disease that needs drugs.
I DONT feel then that feeling low is natural. rather it is usually only alternative in a feeling of hopless situation. SO--we must look AT what the culture is we are living in. IS IT healthy? I say a big NO it aint!
zezt 4 years ago
OK my thoughts in response. First it is most very important I state that mental illness is the myth of the modern age. So for example, when the pharmaceutical industry/bio-psychiatrists claim 'depression' is a disease, there is no scientific proof of this whatsoever! Same wih the other so-called mental illnesses. However, this is NOT to say that people do not manifest various forms of behaviour like distress, visions,
zezt 4 years ago
I highly agree with this. Psychology and psychaitry (as most if not all social sciences) are "cargo cult" sciences at best and are not universally verifiable by controlled experiment.
rrawwbb 4 years ago