@ baroh2413 more of this nonsense. Are you referring merely to physical differences? I find little physical resemblance between a Basque and a Kalmyk, yet they're both considered Europeans by white anthropologists. Nor is the culture of a Georgian peasant the same as that of an Irishman, or either, the same as a Londoner. Yet you're all Europeans.
@DIOPJR I never said that Europeans were the same. Contrary I said that Europeans are different. The same is the case with Africans. Between Africans the difference is even bigger.
@baroh2413 what is your point white man? There are physical and cultural differences between Africans, but there are cultural and physical commonalities as well as political ones. So your point about 'differences' is moot. Everyone is different. This does not mean that human beings cannot form polities, which is all that a United Africa would be.
Okay, at this point I'm done talking to you. Any educated person can review our exchanges and see how disingenuously you've tried to make your 'points', though those points are not exactly clear. Any American of whatever political persuasion will recognize the racial-chauvinistic character of many of your comments, precisely because the America mainstream has been sensitized by voices like Kwame Ture. Being part of a homogeneous society like yours has let you wallow in white supremacy...
...without even realizing it. That's fine; the job of African revolutionaries today is not to serve as the conscience of white folks, but only to awaken other Africans to the resiliency of white supremacy and the neocolonial system for which it's a prop. Then, we must organize! And *smash* the bonds of imperialism that allow the captains of industry to exploit our resources and labor, while their duller brethren play at political commentary at the expense of our dignity.
@DIOPJR you are caught in your own delusions about white supremacism and black victimization. Talking to you is like talking to a cultmember. I am very happy that you are done talking.
What's really sad is that Europeans actually did very much to advance human thought, but you seem to have less respect for that tradition than I do. If you did, you would know the difference between speculative and empirical reasoning, and wouldn't balk like a barn-raised idiot because I mentioned actual authors (like Arrighi, who studies, among other things, globalist neoliberalism) who might have data to counter your claims. Though..
That "black people" are the same is a racist notion conceived by black people who had come to view themselves in white racists persective. In turn they have tried to subvert this notion by creating "black racism". Which is just as ridicoulous as white racism.
@DIOPJR All of what you have said is based upon the notion that "black people" and "africans" are a unity. Thats not the case. There is nothing bad or good about that fact. But it is a fact.
@baroh2413 that sounds like something you've shoved on me. I don't remember saying anything like that. In fact, there are plenty of Pan-Africanists who would say that we are not, as you stupidly called it, a "unity." That we *can* be a unity, and that we can be so quicker than the West can, is what I will affirm always. We share trans-continental political interests and our common experience of dehumanization as 'Blacks' gives us a common cultural enemy: white supremacy.
Now, as far as the people with whom I share common cultural traits. That does not end with Blacks in America, but extends all along the West African coast and into the interior. We know from Melville Herskovits and Sterling Stuckey that Black Americans have a unique culture and that they share it in myriad ways- from motor habits to speech and musical patterns to worldview- with African people. You know nothing about that though, because you're ignorant and a fraud.
@DIOPJR Yes exactly. Blacks from the African west coast because it is slaves sold from the African west coast who are the primary ancestors of the black americans (but they are not the only ones. That's why it makes little sense to call yourself Africans). Not people from Sudan, not people from Tanzania, not Pygmies (yes, pygmies), not people from Mauretania
@baroh2413 so you won't even acknowledge the real name of 'pygmies' but you're the judge of what it makes sense to call a group of people? You, who thinks it's politic to refer to Asians as "Orientals"? Eat a dick.
We must dispel the notion that Africans are not seriously talking about Pan-Africanism anymore. Within the last decade, we can look at the schism in the African Union over the integration of its nation-states into a United States of Africa as an echo of Nkrumah...thirty years delayed. In a time when the EU protects its farmers while the global financial institutions destroy the African farmer, artisan, and merchant, we must unite!
@DIOPJR What people like you don't understand is that political power is not the most important kind of power. That is why a person such as Mohamed "Mo" Ibrahim (a sudanese billionaire and entrepreneur, who set up the Mo Ibrahim foundation) has tried to do more for Africa than any american agitator has ever done. Sadly not many people have heard of him because he is a realist and not just an idealist. (before you accuse me of namedropping, I explained who he is and why i brought him up).
@baroh2413 if you think that political power is less important than the wealth it is structured to protect, you have a limited grasp of the historical development of the state. If political power is relatively unimportant, Western intelligence (re; governmental) agencies wouldn't spend so much to keep in concentrated in the right hands in the underdeveloped world. I have never heard of the CIA looking to oust a billionaire of any color...just indigenes who threaten US interests,
@baroh2413 I want to make one thing clear to you. I don't make it a habit of explaining myself to white people. The time is over for that. I'm responding to you as I am because some brainwashed African might stumble on this page and believe you, a Scandinavian white boy with zero background knowledge of Bro. Ture, has some special insight into his character. It's also a chance to reveal how relevant Baba Ture remains, when he continues to unnerve white audiences everywhere.
@DIOPJR Neither am i writing this for you. I am writing this because I want to make clear that dated icons such as Stokely Carmichael are useless in todays world. Not only are they useless they are counterproductive. But it sounds like you are high on "black history" and "pan africanism" so I have no illusions that you will understand the huge difference between the identity crisis of former slaves in America (who are not african anymore) and the problems African countries are facing today.
@baroh2413 and you haven't proven that you know enough about Ture to make such a claim. I've shown that you know nothing about his organizing work and political ideas prior to the Black Power period. You don't want to admit this because, as Cleaver put it, white people are conditioned to believe they are Omnipotent Administrators over the peoples of color. You haven't given one fact about the man, but you already know the folly of his thinking and activity?
it was a white anthropologist, Melville Herskovits, who noted the unscientific tendency of Europeans to believe that so-called 'primitive cultures' could not withstand the overpowering influence of Western ones when the two come in contact. Why are you so slow in catching up with your white brethren?
@baroh2413 you believe that Africans in America are not Africans anymore because you don't know how resilient African culture really is. As in S. American and Caribbean countries where African retentions are more pronounced, or as in the Sea Islands of S. Carolina, Africans in the US retain a great deal of the essential and surprisingly many of the formal aspects of the African cultures from which we're drawn- even without recognizing ourselves as Africans.
now, once more, if you were to soberly review black history (you put it in quotations, as if it's not a legitimate field of study), you would know the worth of the 'identity crises' of Blacks whom are no longer, as you put it, 'Africans' (I wonder what you would say about a Goree Islander or a Capeverdean who speaks only Portuguese and doesn't mingle with dark Blacks?) Diasporan Africans contributed fundamentally to Pan-Africanist thought
No continental African who embraces Pan-Africanism would deny this. Where would Nkrumah be without Padmore, Du Bois, CLR James, James Boggs, Garvey? So, even on its face, your claim is absurd. And Fanon, a Martinician African, died in the course of the African Revolution, a Pan-Africanist embraced by his Algerian brothers. So clearly the continental Africans do not believe our problems are disconnected...in fact, the platform of the African Union rejects this idea explicitly.
@DIOPJR It sounds like you think we are still living in the 50's or 60's. Do you know what is going on in Africa right now? do you know that your thinking is the same kind of thinking that is keeping dictators and tyrants in power? do you know that Africas biggest problems are not "the white man" but corruption, bad government and restriction on free enterprise? do you know that Milton Friedman (hopefully you know who he is) could have done more for Africa than Stokely Carmichael ever did?
@baroh2413 lol, yes, I know what is going on in Africa right now. The biggest problems in Africa are underdevelopment and the inordinate sway of multinational corporations in political questions. It sounds like you are some free-marketer idiot with his head buried in the asses of Chicago School economists, though, so it's clear that you inhabit an alternate universe and that such things as inequitable GFI policies don't matter to you.
@baroh2413 so Samir Amin, Immanuel Wallerstein, Paul Sweezy, Paul Baran, Walter Rodney, Amilcar Cabral, and other economists, sociologists and historians are merely agitators, while Milton Friedman is some kind of expert on the international division of labor? Yet another assumption: that my views are based merely on the rhetoric of Kwame Ture.
I really don't know what your purpose is here. Fact: I am putting out more information than you. Fact: your responses have been mainly terse, one- or two-sentence ad hominems and generalizations that have made it that much easier for me to expose the universality of the 'Omnipotent Administrator' syndrome to which I earlier referred. Fact: I hope to convince people that Ture's message is still relevant b/c of the lingering ignorance of Westerners to African issues, and you're helping me out.
@DIOPJR Fact is. Your style of writing doesn't suit youtube. That is why i am criticizing it. On youtube you are supposed to write in short and clear terms. Like I am. You have a problem with getting your point across in a clear way. In fact, i don't think anyone has read all of what you have written. People go to youtube to watch videos. Not to read a pretentious pseudo-academic thesis about the importance of Stokely Carmichaels dated opinions. Sounds like i messed with something in your head.
@baroh2413 I'm not at all interested in what you have to say about my writing style, let me be as clear about that as possible. 'Pretentious pseudo-academic', because I present facts? Your 'short and clear' style hasn't allowed you to put forth one defensible claim. Therefore, it's useless. All it's good for is throwing quick calumnies at others and hoping they'll stick.
@baroh2413 'contrary' to it? Whatever, bro. Pot calling the kettle black. The point is, you think my writing style is a sore point, which is why you keep prodding it, instead of addressing points that I very coherently made. MFDP and LCFO are not 'the core of race-hustling' and therefore you're wrong. The free-market orientation of GFI's since the 70's is a matter of record, and therefore you're wrong. What good is lucid writing when you're constantly wrong?
@baroh2413 nonsense. When I first mentioned the fact that Ture had worked in the MFDP and LCFO, you responded that 'those things are tyhe core of race-hustling opportunism,' which is like saying the Alabama Bus Boycott is racial opportunism. When you brought up Africa's plight, you blamed it on her unwillingness to open up to free-market solutions; but from the 70s the majority of loans African nations have received have come with free-market conditionalities. You were wrong and won't admit it.
@baroh2413 I'm not convinced you know how to argue in good faith. You deal in huge generalizations, like the 'model minority' myth, or the myth of the deracinated Black American. You use terms like 'stream-of-consciousness' that don't apply. You inexplicably throw Milton Friedman's name into the discussion as if it's an obscure reference, and then accuse me of 'name-dropping'. Your posts are littered with ad hominems. You show no background knowledge of global or continental African politics.
@DIOPJR Milton Friedman is very relevant when you talk about Africa. Unlike your "heroes" he is a qualified teacher and a Nobel Prize recipient. It would be fruitless to discuss real politics with you because you are stuck in your so called "panafrican" view of the world.
@baroh2413 I'm sorry, what did Friedman write about Africa again? What, specifically, makes him an expert on the political economy of underdeveloped nations? My 'heroes' are either intellectuals and organizers who have directly experienced colonialism, or are academics who have described how neocolonialism works in the 21st century. Who cares that he won the Nobel Prize? Does that mean that everything Krugman or Obama says about every topic is true?
@DIOPJR It doesn't mean that everything Krugman says is true but it means that he is qualified to speak and that I will listen. Even though I don't agree with him. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, not the Nobel Prize in an academic discipline. There is a huge difference. Milton Friedman could teach african countries about equal opportunities and incentive.
@baroh2413 ah, so one has to have won a Nobel Prize in an academic discipline in order to say something relevant about Africa? That's what you seem to be driving at. The fact is that guys who influence my political views like Amin and Arrighi are internationally-reputed scholars of globalism theory, and you've brushed aside everything they've said because they're not neoliberals.
@DIOPJR I never stated that. Don't know where you got that from. All I said that receiving a nobel prize in an academic discipline makes your opinion qualified. Unless you think nobel prizes are given to random people. I have no idea who the two people you mention are and I have never brushed away anything they have said.
@baroh2413 it doesn't qualify every opinion you have, so why bring it up? You brought up the Nobel Prize as if it's supposed to settle matters by its mere prestige. The reason you have no idea who those people are, when you claim to be so knowledgeable about Africa and geopolitics, is because you, sir, are an idiot and an intellectual fraud. I know first-year IR undergrads who know about Amin and Arrighi; hell, I know about them, and poli sci wasn't even my major.
@DIOPJR No. I brought up the Nobel Prize, because the fact that Milton Friedman received gives him credibility. It is amazing how much you namedrop. "I know first-year IR undergrads who know about Amin and Arrighi..." So what? You brought them up as an example of an alternative to thinkers like Milton Friedman and I said that I didn't know them. I have never claimed to know every author or thinker who has said something about Africa. Being able to name people doesn't give you more credibility.
@baroh2413 the point is that you don't know about the most important thinkers to address themselves to questions of Africa's political economy, yet pretend to educate me on African political reality. This would be like me saying to an Austrian School economist that they don't know how markets work because they have not read Marx (who only addressed them in a very speculative way) and then being insulted when they bring up Hayek or Mises.
@DIOPJR Any unbiased person who knows what is going on in Africa will know that the "pan africanism" of today has a negative effect on the continent. You seem to believe the contrary because it suits your ideology. That you have been reading books by two people I do not know doesn't make any difference.
@baroh2413 to be clear, I've already alluded to the influence of Friedman on international policy, when I discussed the effect of neoliberal policy from GFIs like the World Bank several posts ago. Your unwillingness to 'discuss real politics' with me, ostensibly because of my ideology, is the hallmark of ignorance. Or cowardice. Or both.
@DIOPJR Race isn't as important as you make it to be. Every argument against your so-called ideology is made to be "racist", "Neo-colonialist" or "imperialist". "Black People" have no resonsiblity for their problems "as a people". From your perspective. Thats why it is hard, if not impossible, to discuss serious political issues with you. First of all "black people" is not one people, but several different people. The difference between the peoples of africa is bigger than between europeans.
@baroh2413 a bunch of claims for which you have no evidence, as is your custom. Where did I say that every argument against Pan-Africanism is racist, neo-colonialist or imperialist? Just because I think those adjectives apply to statements you've made, doesn't mean they must apply to every possible statement. Now, how do you justify the claim that the differences among Africans are greater than those among Europeans?
@DIOPJR The difference between pygmies of central Africa and people from Sudan is bigger than the difference between people from Portugal and people from Sweden. Likewise is the difference between people from South Africa and people from Senegal bigger than the difference between people from Germany and people from Hungary. If you had ever been to Africa (or Europe) you would know that. But since you haven't you probably think that all Africans are like the black people around you in America.
@baroh2413 I notice you have a hard time getting the names of these people you claim to respect, right. You're not a racist, yet you refer to Asians as "Orientals." You know more about Africa than me, but not enough to call the 'pygmies' by their actual name- the Ba-Twa. I find it interesting whenever white people believe that their vacation trips to 'exotic' places like Africa make them instant anthropologists. Interesting, because chauvinistic.
@baroh2413 why not humble yourself and admit that lack of knowledge is the source of your mistakes? Is it because you're just this intransigent toward everybody, or is it that you don't like to be taught anything by a Black person? Honest question.
@DIOPJR It has nothing to do with color. It is because I sincerely believe that Stokely Carmichael was wrong. And he made a career out of it. How do you know what color I am?
@baroh2413 bullshyt. I asked you why you won't admit that you made mistakes in your conversation with me- not whether your dislike of Ture comes from his being Black. Ture made a career out of organizing Black people. Fortunately, he didn't need Scandinavians to sanction his rhetoric to accomplish that end. Now, I can't be sure what color you are, any more than you can be sure that I've never been to Africa, but my assumption is based on the racial demographics in your country. Are you Black?
@baroh2413 and it's become clear at this point that you will do everything you can to avoid admitting your mistakes, because you are a coward. All of this other stuff (cultural backgrounds, writing styles, and so forth) is absolutely irrelevant.
@DIOPJR It is not irrelevant. It says a lot about you and how you were brainwashed into believing in reverse racism and a fake concept such as "black history". Brainwashed people usually write the way you do. Or did until I made you aware that your writing style revealed were you were coming from.I didn't make a mistake. I stated that Stokely Carmichael was a racehustler, who made things worse not better. And then I kickstarted something in you. Almost like mentioning Xenu to a Scientologist.
@baroh2413 lol. So now Black history is a fake concept? Yes, I can tell you that you know nothing about racial mores in American society, because any white person in this country who is not a racist would be terribly embarrassed by that statement. Now, how does my writing style reveal where I'm coming from? Do all Black people write the way I do? And how did you not make a mistake, when you claimed that Ture's work organizing Black voters was 'the core of race hustling'?
@DIOPJR at this point, I feel very comfortable calling you a racist. It's not a word I throw around freely, but it applies. You have absolutely no idea about Black people's freedom struggle in this country but think you are an instant expert because, after all, how hard could it be? If it wasn't for 'race-hustlers' organizing us in voter registration drives and teaching us we had a history, Black people would be much better off, like the 'Orientals.' You're a racist pig.
@DIOPJR You are the one who are only focusing on race. I am not. I am focusing on specific individuals who either knowingly or unknowingly has been caught up in "the black struggle" frenzy of the 20th century. You are a black racist.
@DIOPJR I stated the fact that you are a racist, because base your worldview upon a black vs white dichotomy. You voiced your opinion that you thought i was a racist, because I don't buy into your opnions and your so-called ideology. I am stating a fact. You are voicing an opinion. Deal with it.
@baroh2413 how do you know that's what my worldview is based upon? Actually, my worldview is philosophical materialism- I don't affirm any essential difference between Black and white, only subjective historical ones. And that view is the one that most Pan-Africanists have held. I stated my opinion that you're a racist because you make racist claims like "black history is fake" and "Stokely Carmichael never contributed to anything positive," which are statements that racists make.
@DIOPJR That "black history" is fake is not a racist claim. And you do not have to be a racist in order claim that "Stokely Carmichael never contributed anything positive". "Philosophical materialism" is also the worldview of most white racists. They claim to base their belief on scientific and historical fact. So claiming that you are only interested in facts doesn't disqualify you as a racist. As the subject "black history" shows facts can be manipulated to support what you already "know"
@baroh2413 yes it is. Just because you state something peremptorily does not make it so. To deny a historical group a history is an exercise in ignorance; when you ignore their history because of their race, it is racism. Next you'll be telling me there's no Native American history.
So, what's your point? KI'm a philosophical materialist, and a consistent one. I don't believe there's any metaphysical basis for such categories as "black" and "white." And unlike materialist white supremacists, I don't think there's a genetic basis for racial inferiority. All you have to work with are my statements, so why would I not state what my worldview is when you've tried to make it a racialist one?
@DIOPJR Fortunately all black people do not write the way you do. Are you sure about white people being embarassed about my statement? What do you think about white history? is that a legitimate subject? Is history a matter of learning or a matter of building identity and power? The core of racehustling is utilizing weak people in order to gain power and make a living from it. Racehustlers do not want to solve problems with racetensions, because they make a living from them.
As far as your opinions on my writing, this is the last time I'll address that. I started reading newspapers when I was five years old, and read at a college level before I left grade school. I've never gotten anything but A's in any of my English or Composition classes, and was fast-tracked to advanced programs all through school. You, meanwhile, have at best a nervous grasp of English- understandable, since you're a foreigner, but don't try to blame your incomprehension on my writing style.
@DIOPJR That explains why you have a hard time arguing without throwing in references to 50 odd people everytime you try to build up an argument. Reading, thinking and experience goes hand in hand. Just reading can be bad for your mental health. As far as your grades go, I am not your teacher or your classmate. Nor am i going to hire you for a job, so your grades doesn't really matter to me. But you sound like you have been a good boy. You parents must be proud of you.
@baroh2413 now, every person the West calls a 'tyrant' is not a Pan-Africanist, so it doesn't follow that 'my thinking' automatically supports tyrannies. What is clear, though, is that liberal capitalist countries have no problem in supporting tyrannies themselves, so long as they're folded into the interests of international capital. These same interests demand 'conditionalities' for Western loans that actually let loose 'free market' forces from the West, putting indigenes out of business...
...in fact, the prevailing economic philosophy of the IMF under jackals like Wolfowitz has been, since at least the 70's, neoliberalism with the overt aim of subverting protectionism and government ownership in the developing world. That you would imply that collectivism is the biggest problem of Africa, as if free-market philosophy hasn't already been let loose there to disastrous effect, betrays your own ignorance of Africa's developmental history.
At this point, you should stop responding. You are terribly ignorant of the American civil rights struggle, and of African political thought, so much so that you can't avoid making a serious analytical or factual mistake with every post. On top of that, you're smug as hell, and authoritarian, but without introducing any new, meaningful information into the discussion. You're the image of a paternalistic white, deigning to guide the Black man away from 'excesses'
@DIOPJR That is a postulate from a man who has realised that he cannot argue when he is not in his own ballpark. Can you support your postulate with facts? Without falling back to your ready-made-arguments?
@baroh2413 you haven't admitted that you were wrong when you said that Ture did not contribute to anything positive. A person who cannot admit his own mistakes is not educable. What kind of precedent are you setting for good faith argumentation? By the way, the only person who has been dealing in facts this whole 'discussion' has been me. MFDP is a fact. LCFO is a fact. Global (vs. continental) Pan-Africanism figuring in the program of the African Union is a fact. As are SAPs.
@baroh2413 all you've done is backpedaled, made condescending remarks about how different the Black American struggle is from the African one (as if you're psychologically attuned to either), and offered sweeping assumptions about what I don't know based on my being an African in America. Or else, you've recast every statement I've made about a personality as 'name-dropping', rather than defense of that personality (i.e. Ture). Or, you've insulted my writing style.
And I think it's funny that you label the organization of Black people for voting rights against violent racists in Alabama and Mississippi is 'race-hustling opportunism.' Race-hustling, to organize Black people into a local party in defiance of an illegal Dixiecratic political machine in Miss.? Race-hustling, to arm Black people to exercise their legal right to vote in an Alabama county where they comprise the majority? Your apathy towards Africans' suffering is in full evidence here.
(cont.)...you pay lip-service to democracy as against 'dictatorship' in the case of Guinea but deny the importance of, and even lambaste the organization around, the principle of democracy in the African freedom struggle in the US. Thank you for unwittingly showing the contradictions in the attitude of the mainstream toward African political movements.
@DIOPJR it looks like you have been brainwashed. You are saying exactly what you are supposed to say. Not one of the words you wrote are an expression of thoughts that came from within you. The cult of victimization is very powerful. Be careful fellow youtuber. And good luck.
@DIOPJR You do not argue. You namedrop and try to give me the impression that an "opportunist" is something other than what it is. I see no reason taking your arguments seriously because you only know half the story about the people you are referring to. It sounds like you base your worldview upon raceissues, which is the definition of a racist. Saying that a "dictatorship" is a relative term is ridiculous. It is because of people like you that Africa has shown very little progress since the 50s
@baroh2413 please. I asked you in what sense the MFDP or the Lowndes County Freedom Organization were instances of race-baiting opportunism, and you couldn't explain. Let me be clear about this one thing, though: I don't give a damn about you and your opinion of me as a 'racist'. As far as I'm concerned, when you claim that organizing against Dixiecrats is race-baiting opportunism, you're in league with the real racists. My only purpose is to expose your hypocrisy.
Finally, it is not 'people like me', Pan-Africanists, who are responsible for Africa's condition today. Pan-Africanists do not set up exploitative Structural Adjustment Programs or World Bank loans with exorbitant interest rates. Pan-Africanists do not prop up actual opportunists like Tshombe. All of this is the work of neocolonialist apparatuses like the CIA and IMF. All you've done is hurl bad names at myself and others from the time you began posting. If you don't care to educate yourself...
@DIOPJR Another barrage of namedropping and farfetched conspiracy theories, instead of focusing on the real issue. You are beginning to sound like Noam Chomsky
@baroh2413 you've got a strange habit of redefining things. By 'name-dropping' you mean referring to actual events and people; by 'opportunism' you mean actual organizing around the political needs of disenfranchised groups; by 'conspiracy theories' you mean well-established facts that anybody can learn in an introductory African history course, or (in the cases of Lumumba and Nkrumah) by studying FBI documents released under the FOIA.
@DIOPJR by namedropping i mean throwing around names of people, that you have been told are your great leaders instead of forming a theoretical arguments based on your own situation and what you have experienced yourself? Writing "like Malcolm X, like Nkrumah, like Garvey, like Toure etc etc" frees you of the responsibility of writing what you, principally, think yourself. History can be used, and it can be abused so arguing against a proposition by throwing around names will get you nowhere
@baroh2413 name-dropping is a kind of argument from authority. Where have I argued from authority? Merely mentioning the names of people is not the same as not having your own perspectives on things. To wit: where have I said that something is so because of such-and-such authority? Everywhere I have asked, on what basis do you malign the work of Ture as 'race-hustling opportunism'? I can't possibly pose that question without reference to his personality.
Now, if it's illegitimate to pose that kind of question, then there's no possible defense of Ture. In other words, he's always wrong, a priori, because you say so- which is clearly an irrational statement. You would have me substitute what you believe is my infallible authority (Ture) with yourself...and since I'm not in the habit of slavishly following the opinions of others, whether proven freedom fighters or European dilettantes, theres no hope of that happening. Sorry.
@baroh2413 which premise is wrong? You don't even have the balls to say. That Black people should right the wrongs of society themselves, instead of just speaking out against them? That urban rebellions, which have historically resulted in increased attention from the natl. govt. to poverty in the cities, are laudable? And furthermore, who the hell qualified you to speak about American race relations? Aren't you from some Nordic country with a nugatory Black population?
@DIOPJR The premise that you can gain anything from focusin on race in relation to politics, business or culture is wrong. Pan-Africanism is wrong. It may have started as a good idea but it lead to horrible dictatorships in many african countries and corruption and stagnation in others.
@baroh2413 you have shown that you know nothing about race relations in America. You have not given me, or any intelligent reader, a good reason for listening to your opinions on race in politics, so this interlocution has officially become a waste of my time. If you wish to talk about these matters in a constructive way, then answer my question about the MFDP/LCFO; but please don't gloat over my withdrawal, knowing deep down that you've been shown ignorant of this subject.
And, to be clear, real 'name-dropping' is telling me that, in making empirical statements like 'the CIA is responsible for installing a despot like Tshombe', I'm 'beginning to sound like Noam Chomsky.' You should be consistent. Finally, on what do you base your arguments? Your statements about Guinea, for example, are not based on 'theoretical arguments based on your own situation,' as you so ponderously stated it, but on the biased testimony of family members. Et Tu Brutus!
@DIOPJR If Toure looks like a dictator, acts like a dictator and sounds like a dictator, don't expect me to call him a freedom fighter. But you show me why it would be unwise to even begin to argue against what you say. Instead of leading a principle discussion you have ready made examples that you throw around. And then you hope that I would start arguing against them so you could be on your homeground. That is how you recognize a namedropper
@baroh2413 I refuse to talk to you about Africa's political situation until you prove yourself competent about the subject of this video, which is only fair. You can ramble on meaninglessly about dictatorship and name-dropping all you want; you can't change the fact that you've been proved wrong in your characterization of Stokely Carmichael (the last Ture I referred to; perhaps you didn't know that he changed his name to Kwame Ture?). Answer the MFDP/LCFO question or shut the hell up.
@DIOPJR I know he changed his name to Kwame Toure, but i prefer to call him Stokely Carmichael. It suits him better. You are the one who ramble. I only answer your ramblings as good as any sane person can.
@DIOPJR "MFDP or the Lowndes County Freedom Organization" is another one of your readymade arguments that you can throw around. I argued against your comment about Stokely Carmichael working constructively in africa with dictators and showed that I know more about Africa than you do, because you have probably never been there. Like any good namedropper you throw another example and expect me to continue. It would be a waste of time refuting all of your arguments instead of discussing principle.
@baroh2413 assumption after assumption after assumption. You assume that it's a 'ready-made argument', as if I expect people to overlook what Ture did in SNCC. In fact, I don't; it's probably what he's best-known for, which is why I found your comments about his 'race-hustling opportunism' all the more shocking. What you call a 'ready-made argument', I call background knowledge of the subject. I'm sorry we don't share equally in that.
@DIOPJR The reason i call it a "ready-made-argument" is because you are very eager to get me to explain why it is an example of "race-hustling-opportunism". I have never said that that specific incident was an example of that. But the man behind it is an example of that. A travelling demagogue building his powerbase upone "helping the oppressed" and using reverse racism and revisionist "black history" to do so.
@baroh2413 when I offered his work in SNCC as an example of something he's done positive, you bunched it together with his work with Toure and Nkrumah, probably because you knew nothing about it. As far as the 'traveling demagogue' crap, you do know that this speech was well after the MFDP and LCFO, right? 'Traveling' was not a part of that work; he had to live with country folk in terrible segregated conditions in Miss. and Alabama, facing down Klansmen, sheriffs, and lynch mobs.
Now, what do those conditions have to do with the work of a traveling demagogue? What does a young college student with a grad school scholarship offer from Harvard, stand to gain materially from those kinds of risks? And this is the whole point I've been making. You say all this garbage about Kwame Ture, but I doubt you've read anything by or about him from an actual book. If you did, you would understand that his politics evolved into Black Power.
@baroh2413 Now, MFDP and LFCO are organizations that he helped build among poor, disenfranchised Black people; they're instance of constructive work he's done, the merits of which no one, except a dyed-in-the-wool racist or a person completely ignorant of the background in which SNCC was organizing, could deny. How in the hell is that name-dropping? Is this just another case of your lexical limitations? Also, how do you know if I've been to Africa? How have you shown that you know more than me?
@DIOPJR I have shown that I know more than you by telling you what these african leaders in your example really are. Ask anyone from an African country what they think of them today and you will be surprised. The only reason that black americans still use them as examples of good leadership is because they have never been to Africa and because they are not Africans. To them it doesn't really matter how things are in Africa because they will probably never go there.
@baroh2413 you think that I did not know that Sekou Toure is called a dictator by the West? Yet another assumption that you've made. Now, I know plenty of Africans, from Ghana, from Nigeria, from Ethiopia, and they all greatly admire Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah. Nkrumah is so popular in Ghana today that there is not a serious party that does not claim his legacy in some way or another. So if all we're basing African mass opinion on is private conversations, you've lost.
Now, what you call 'principle' is just sentiment. You, being ignorant of the struggle of Africans with the US government, feel offended when you hear a man who has been arrested over 27 times before his mid-20's refer to Whites as honkies, or applaud Black people for violently revolting against police brutality, the murder of their leaders, slum conditions, etc. You've been so coddled by a Nordic welfare state that you don't know what anguish sounds like. How does it feel to be stereotyped?
@DIOPJR I do agree that living conditions and the socialsystem in scandinavia is far superior to that of America (or Africa for that sake). We're very proud of that. But that doesn't mean that we can't criticize professional troublemakers such as Stokely Carmichael.
@baroh2413 you really have offered no reason for your characterization of 'trouble-making.' The fact that your people have no great tradition of rebelling against an imperialist power means that you might lack some context for a full appreciation of Ture's methods of agitation.
Having shown the puerility of your thinking, my only problem now is figuring out your angle. You're not smart enough to be in the employ of an intelligence agency. You're not blunt enough to be an out-and-out White Power advocate. Are you a White-minded African? A Teabagger? A John Bircher? What's your angle, reactionary? Why is your kind so keen on maligning Pan-Africanists like Kwame Ture long after they've begun their dance with the ancestors?
@DIOPJR OH.you have "shown the purility of my thinking" with your "thesis" my last comment. Fantastic. The identity crisis of the former black slaves is a tragedy but it shouldn't be confused with the problems of africans. What exactly is a whiteminded african? is it someone who (like the chinese and the indians) does what works for him and his country instead of adhering to a mix of outdated ideology and brainwashing from the days of the coldwar and narrowminded focus on black vs white?
@baroh2413 you don't know what the hell you're talking about. A White-minded African is a person who believes that every solution to their problem must come from White people. Now, the 'identity crisis' of former slaves is directly relevant to the problems of Africans- which is why Steve Biko was able to organize so many South Africans around Black Consciousness literature coming from the African Diaspora. (Do not embarrass yourself by mistaking my historical example for 'name-dropping'.)
@baroh2413 quit being a coward and answer the question. What does race-hustling have to do with organizing Black people legally to press for their legal right to vote against an illegal political machine? Do you have an answer, or are you going to continue trying to save face?
and what, exactly, 'works for Africans and their countries' and what is 'outdated ideology'? You deploy these categories as if with reference to something; but unless the 'outdated ideology' you refer to is Pan-Africanism (which is not at all Cold War ideology- which has been, from independence, a nonaligned socialist paradigm), and which is focused, not merely on racial, but also geopolitical and economic considerations, the category seems empty.
@DIOPJR So you think that a pragmatic approach to solving problems is "an empty category" . Why do you think orientals, jews and indians are far more succesful in America than blacks?
@baroh2413 your grasp of English is tenuous; now I know it's because you're not an American, and not simply because you're unintelligent. My point about 'empty category' had nothing to do with the 'pragmatic approach', whatever that means. I was referring to the 'outdated ideology' you mentioned without clarification. It's a shame that you speak when you don't know, trip yourself up as much as you do, and insist on continuing to run with your pants around your ankles.
As far as why model minorities are successful in America, it's because of the entry requirements set by the US government. African immigrants to this country are actually, statistically, the best-educated 'ethnic' group, and why? Because of the stringency of US admission requirements. It's certainly not because their culture leads to 'success' wherever they go. If it were, then most the citizens of Nigeria would be affluent. Draw the necessary inference.
@DIOPJR It has nothing to do with entry requirements. I am not talking about new immigrants i am talking about people who are third-fourth and fifth generation americans
@baroh2413 answer the question I posed to you: what is opportunistic about organizing Black people to exercise their legal right to vote in counties where they represent the majority and their vote is suppressed by organized White violence? You said that Ture's work is the 'core of race-hustling opportunism,' but this is a counter-example that shows you don't know what you're talking about. I could swat away the dumb point you just made; answer that question first, though.
@baroh2413 you have a very short memory. When I brought up Ture's work as an organizer in SNCC, you brushed it aside as "the core of race hustling." If you meant to exclude that work, then that's an understandable error; but the fact is that you started off by pretending that he never did anything except complain and agitate. Those two examples show that he did much more than that, which is why I'm 'obsessed' with them, as you stupidly put it.
@DIOPJR He may have helped people, but his methods (agitating, racism, dividing) and the ideology (collectivism, "black power") that lay behind them are dubious to say the least.
@baroh2413 Ture did not come out of the womb espousing Black Power. It was a stage in the evolution of his political thinking. It was informed by his study of Malcolm and Marcus Garvey in the years of disillusionment towards integration. If he was such a persona non grata, a man of limited vision and dubious character, how did he find himself in the position of educating King on the political history of the Vietnam conflict?
@baroh2413 what you have to do now is to admit that you were incorrect in saying that he didn't contribute to anything positive. You yourself admitted that he 'may have' helped people. Just accept the loss and keep it movin'.
@DIOPJR Napoleon made a lot of changes in the french society to benefit the people and so did Gadaffi in Libya but that doesn't hide the fact that they are demagogues and deceivers (bringing up Hitler is too clicheed so I will let him rest in peace). Most racehustlers, demagogues, dictators, dirty cops and politicians once were idealists, but sadly many of them become warped and sucked into the very same thing they are fighting. (Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are prime examples of this)
@baroh2413 no, this you're not allowed to do. You're trying to mire this back-and-forth in a new mud-puddle because you can't come to grips with the fact that you mischaracterized Ture. Admitting that he helped the people is admitting that he was involved in something positive. You claimed that he never has been, and now you don't have the balls to own up to your mistake. Very typical.
Now, calling the man a demagogue is yet another baseless accusation. Where is the demagoguery? Does he not believe the things he's saying? If not, how do you know? Better yet, what is your definition of a demagogue? Is it someone who polarizes public opinion to appeal to the masses? It's interesting; there is not a single independent Black leader that has not been accused of demagoguery by mainstream opinion.
finally, your use of the epithet 'race-hustler' (which sounds especially smug from a person who has probably never been in an American Black neighborhood) is equally undefined. How is Ture hustling the people and to what end? If it's merely the things he's saying, I can point almost all of them to the influences of either Garvey, Malcolm or Nkrumah. If you believe these men, who suffered great privations for most of their lives, were 'hustlers', you'll never get it.
@baroh2413 who are the descendants of immigrants. Immigrants who faced even harsher immigration quotas than they do currently. Obviously there will be some continuity of SES from college-educated immigrants to their descendants. Now, answer the question, coward: how are the MFDP and LCFO instances of race-hustling opportunism?
@DIOPJR My grasp of English is good enough to understand your pretentious, pseudointellectual ramblings. The outdated ideology is that of pan-africanism and the thought of "evil western capitalist imperialists" trying to take over Africa again. The soviet union spread this propaganda in order to gain allies. But I guess it wasn't obvious what I meant. The last part of your comment says more about you than it says about me.
@baroh2413 at this point, I refuse to talk to you about African politics until you can address American politics. I have plenty to say about Pan-Africanism, but you won't get that far with me without handling the lingering issue of the MFDP/LCFO, which you have *yet* to respond to...obviously out of cowardice. BTW, pretentiousness is acting like you know what you don't know. Pseudo-intellectualism is using academic language to cover up such lacunae. You're guilty of both.
Need I mention, at this point, that you have not explained how the MFDP or the Lowndes County Freedom Organization were instances of 'race-hustling opportunism'? I would imagine it's because you didn't know about them before you summarily maligned Kwame Ture's life's work, and now you're embarrassed by your lack of knowledge. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
...on African issues, then why do you keep commenting on them? If you'll notice, I have yet to call you one bad name. I've even given you the opportunity to back up your statements, and you shrank away- without, however, refusing to return. Now who is brainwashed here? Who is the running dog for whom? Who hopes to win whom over by mere sloganeering?
@baroh2413 none of those things is the definition of an opportunist. It seems like you're just hurling as many calumnies as you can think up. 'He made a career out of complaining' is a statement in complete ignorance of his role in organizing the MFDP and the Lowdnes County Freedom Organization, or the work he did in Guinea under Ahmed Sekou Toure and with Kwame Nkrumah. 'Positive' is a matter of perspective. Reactionaries never think revolution is positive.
@baroh2413 'opportunism' usually terminates in positions of privilege and power. 'Opportunism' is Negroes riding the wave of Black Power into cushy appointments under Nixon. What great privileges did KT gain from his 'race-hustling'? By the way, I don't care a whit for your characterization of Sekou Toure. 'Dictatorships' are necessitated by the historical forces; the question is whether they are for the people or for the oligarchs.
@DIOPJR You are speaking as a person who was in a capitalist democracy in safe distance from Guinea at the time of Toure (or probably wasn't even born when he reigned). Stokely Carmichael became immortal and was regarded a leader because of his racehustling. Today many people regard him as a pioneer in the socalled "race struggle". He probably, as all good communists, also made a living by agitating against the enemies of the soviet union. That was probably enough for him.
Baba Kwame Ture is a soilder, a scholar, a healer, a king, a father and a hero who brought us in the struggles of our liberattion.
Baba Kwame Ture was a man who loved us and he didn't care what our enemies thought of him, because what I like of this man, he didn't give into bull from these wicked racist beasts known as the FBI, the CIA etc; because Baba Kwame Ture just blew them away one by one.
Baba Kwame Ture was inspired by Baba Kwame Nkrumah and Baba Ahmed Sekou Ture.
Y'all.. Why can't we all blend in? Tehee:)
XjadafluteX 1 week ago
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@ baroh2413 more of this nonsense. Are you referring merely to physical differences? I find little physical resemblance between a Basque and a Kalmyk, yet they're both considered Europeans by white anthropologists. Nor is the culture of a Georgian peasant the same as that of an Irishman, or either, the same as a Londoner. Yet you're all Europeans.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I never said that Europeans were the same. Contrary I said that Europeans are different. The same is the case with Africans. Between Africans the difference is even bigger.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 what is your point white man? There are physical and cultural differences between Africans, but there are cultural and physical commonalities as well as political ones. So your point about 'differences' is moot. Everyone is different. This does not mean that human beings cannot form polities, which is all that a United Africa would be.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Okay, at this point I'm done talking to you. Any educated person can review our exchanges and see how disingenuously you've tried to make your 'points', though those points are not exactly clear. Any American of whatever political persuasion will recognize the racial-chauvinistic character of many of your comments, precisely because the America mainstream has been sensitized by voices like Kwame Ture. Being part of a homogeneous society like yours has let you wallow in white supremacy...
DIOPJR 3 months ago
...without even realizing it. That's fine; the job of African revolutionaries today is not to serve as the conscience of white folks, but only to awaken other Africans to the resiliency of white supremacy and the neocolonial system for which it's a prop. Then, we must organize! And *smash* the bonds of imperialism that allow the captains of industry to exploit our resources and labor, while their duller brethren play at political commentary at the expense of our dignity.
DIOPJR 3 months ago 2
@DIOPJR you are caught in your own delusions about white supremacism and black victimization. Talking to you is like talking to a cultmember. I am very happy that you are done talking.
baroh2413 3 months ago
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What's really sad is that Europeans actually did very much to advance human thought, but you seem to have less respect for that tradition than I do. If you did, you would know the difference between speculative and empirical reasoning, and wouldn't balk like a barn-raised idiot because I mentioned actual authors (like Arrighi, who studies, among other things, globalist neoliberalism) who might have data to counter your claims. Though..
DIOPJR 3 months ago
That "black people" are the same is a racist notion conceived by black people who had come to view themselves in white racists persective. In turn they have tried to subvert this notion by creating "black racism". Which is just as ridicoulous as white racism.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 wtf are you talking about? Where did I say that "Black people are the same"? You're a sleazy arguer.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR All of what you have said is based upon the notion that "black people" and "africans" are a unity. Thats not the case. There is nothing bad or good about that fact. But it is a fact.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 that sounds like something you've shoved on me. I don't remember saying anything like that. In fact, there are plenty of Pan-Africanists who would say that we are not, as you stupidly called it, a "unity." That we *can* be a unity, and that we can be so quicker than the West can, is what I will affirm always. We share trans-continental political interests and our common experience of dehumanization as 'Blacks' gives us a common cultural enemy: white supremacy.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Now, as far as the people with whom I share common cultural traits. That does not end with Blacks in America, but extends all along the West African coast and into the interior. We know from Melville Herskovits and Sterling Stuckey that Black Americans have a unique culture and that they share it in myriad ways- from motor habits to speech and musical patterns to worldview- with African people. You know nothing about that though, because you're ignorant and a fraud.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Yes exactly. Blacks from the African west coast because it is slaves sold from the African west coast who are the primary ancestors of the black americans (but they are not the only ones. That's why it makes little sense to call yourself Africans). Not people from Sudan, not people from Tanzania, not Pygmies (yes, pygmies), not people from Mauretania
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 so you won't even acknowledge the real name of 'pygmies' but you're the judge of what it makes sense to call a group of people? You, who thinks it's politic to refer to Asians as "Orientals"? Eat a dick.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
We must dispel the notion that Africans are not seriously talking about Pan-Africanism anymore. Within the last decade, we can look at the schism in the African Union over the integration of its nation-states into a United States of Africa as an echo of Nkrumah...thirty years delayed. In a time when the EU protects its farmers while the global financial institutions destroy the African farmer, artisan, and merchant, we must unite!
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR What people like you don't understand is that political power is not the most important kind of power. That is why a person such as Mohamed "Mo" Ibrahim (a sudanese billionaire and entrepreneur, who set up the Mo Ibrahim foundation) has tried to do more for Africa than any american agitator has ever done. Sadly not many people have heard of him because he is a realist and not just an idealist. (before you accuse me of namedropping, I explained who he is and why i brought him up).
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 if you think that political power is less important than the wealth it is structured to protect, you have a limited grasp of the historical development of the state. If political power is relatively unimportant, Western intelligence (re; governmental) agencies wouldn't spend so much to keep in concentrated in the right hands in the underdeveloped world. I have never heard of the CIA looking to oust a billionaire of any color...just indigenes who threaten US interests,
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I want to make one thing clear to you. I don't make it a habit of explaining myself to white people. The time is over for that. I'm responding to you as I am because some brainwashed African might stumble on this page and believe you, a Scandinavian white boy with zero background knowledge of Bro. Ture, has some special insight into his character. It's also a chance to reveal how relevant Baba Ture remains, when he continues to unnerve white audiences everywhere.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Neither am i writing this for you. I am writing this because I want to make clear that dated icons such as Stokely Carmichael are useless in todays world. Not only are they useless they are counterproductive. But it sounds like you are high on "black history" and "pan africanism" so I have no illusions that you will understand the huge difference between the identity crisis of former slaves in America (who are not african anymore) and the problems African countries are facing today.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 and you haven't proven that you know enough about Ture to make such a claim. I've shown that you know nothing about his organizing work and political ideas prior to the Black Power period. You don't want to admit this because, as Cleaver put it, white people are conditioned to believe they are Omnipotent Administrators over the peoples of color. You haven't given one fact about the man, but you already know the folly of his thinking and activity?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
it was a white anthropologist, Melville Herskovits, who noted the unscientific tendency of Europeans to believe that so-called 'primitive cultures' could not withstand the overpowering influence of Western ones when the two come in contact. Why are you so slow in catching up with your white brethren?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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@baroh2413 you believe that Africans in America are not Africans anymore because you don't know how resilient African culture really is. As in S. American and Caribbean countries where African retentions are more pronounced, or as in the Sea Islands of S. Carolina, Africans in the US retain a great deal of the essential and surprisingly many of the formal aspects of the African cultures from which we're drawn- even without recognizing ourselves as Africans.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
now, once more, if you were to soberly review black history (you put it in quotations, as if it's not a legitimate field of study), you would know the worth of the 'identity crises' of Blacks whom are no longer, as you put it, 'Africans' (I wonder what you would say about a Goree Islander or a Capeverdean who speaks only Portuguese and doesn't mingle with dark Blacks?) Diasporan Africans contributed fundamentally to Pan-Africanist thought
DIOPJR 3 months ago
No continental African who embraces Pan-Africanism would deny this. Where would Nkrumah be without Padmore, Du Bois, CLR James, James Boggs, Garvey? So, even on its face, your claim is absurd. And Fanon, a Martinician African, died in the course of the African Revolution, a Pan-Africanist embraced by his Algerian brothers. So clearly the continental Africans do not believe our problems are disconnected...in fact, the platform of the African Union rejects this idea explicitly.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR It sounds like you think we are still living in the 50's or 60's. Do you know what is going on in Africa right now? do you know that your thinking is the same kind of thinking that is keeping dictators and tyrants in power? do you know that Africas biggest problems are not "the white man" but corruption, bad government and restriction on free enterprise? do you know that Milton Friedman (hopefully you know who he is) could have done more for Africa than Stokely Carmichael ever did?
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 lol, yes, I know what is going on in Africa right now. The biggest problems in Africa are underdevelopment and the inordinate sway of multinational corporations in political questions. It sounds like you are some free-marketer idiot with his head buried in the asses of Chicago School economists, though, so it's clear that you inhabit an alternate universe and that such things as inequitable GFI policies don't matter to you.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I do listen to people who know what they are talking about instead of agitators who make things up.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 so Samir Amin, Immanuel Wallerstein, Paul Sweezy, Paul Baran, Walter Rodney, Amilcar Cabral, and other economists, sociologists and historians are merely agitators, while Milton Friedman is some kind of expert on the international division of labor? Yet another assumption: that my views are based merely on the rhetoric of Kwame Ture.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
I really don't know what your purpose is here. Fact: I am putting out more information than you. Fact: your responses have been mainly terse, one- or two-sentence ad hominems and generalizations that have made it that much easier for me to expose the universality of the 'Omnipotent Administrator' syndrome to which I earlier referred. Fact: I hope to convince people that Ture's message is still relevant b/c of the lingering ignorance of Westerners to African issues, and you're helping me out.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Fact is. Your style of writing doesn't suit youtube. That is why i am criticizing it. On youtube you are supposed to write in short and clear terms. Like I am. You have a problem with getting your point across in a clear way. In fact, i don't think anyone has read all of what you have written. People go to youtube to watch videos. Not to read a pretentious pseudo-academic thesis about the importance of Stokely Carmichaels dated opinions. Sounds like i messed with something in your head.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I'm not at all interested in what you have to say about my writing style, let me be as clear about that as possible. 'Pretentious pseudo-academic', because I present facts? Your 'short and clear' style hasn't allowed you to put forth one defensible claim. Therefore, it's useless. All it's good for is throwing quick calumnies at others and hoping they'll stick.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR It suits the medium in which i write, contrary to your stream-of-consciousness, babbling attempt at sounding intelligent. Know your audience.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 'contrary' to it? Whatever, bro. Pot calling the kettle black. The point is, you think my writing style is a sore point, which is why you keep prodding it, instead of addressing points that I very coherently made. MFDP and LCFO are not 'the core of race-hustling' and therefore you're wrong. The free-market orientation of GFI's since the 70's is a matter of record, and therefore you're wrong. What good is lucid writing when you're constantly wrong?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I never mentioned the incidents you mention.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 nonsense. When I first mentioned the fact that Ture had worked in the MFDP and LCFO, you responded that 'those things are tyhe core of race-hustling opportunism,' which is like saying the Alabama Bus Boycott is racial opportunism. When you brought up Africa's plight, you blamed it on her unwillingness to open up to free-market solutions; but from the 70s the majority of loans African nations have received have come with free-market conditionalities. You were wrong and won't admit it.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I'm not convinced you know how to argue in good faith. You deal in huge generalizations, like the 'model minority' myth, or the myth of the deracinated Black American. You use terms like 'stream-of-consciousness' that don't apply. You inexplicably throw Milton Friedman's name into the discussion as if it's an obscure reference, and then accuse me of 'name-dropping'. Your posts are littered with ad hominems. You show no background knowledge of global or continental African politics.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Milton Friedman is very relevant when you talk about Africa. Unlike your "heroes" he is a qualified teacher and a Nobel Prize recipient. It would be fruitless to discuss real politics with you because you are stuck in your so called "panafrican" view of the world.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I'm sorry, what did Friedman write about Africa again? What, specifically, makes him an expert on the political economy of underdeveloped nations? My 'heroes' are either intellectuals and organizers who have directly experienced colonialism, or are academics who have described how neocolonialism works in the 21st century. Who cares that he won the Nobel Prize? Does that mean that everything Krugman or Obama says about every topic is true?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR It doesn't mean that everything Krugman says is true but it means that he is qualified to speak and that I will listen. Even though I don't agree with him. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, not the Nobel Prize in an academic discipline. There is a huge difference. Milton Friedman could teach african countries about equal opportunities and incentive.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 ah, so one has to have won a Nobel Prize in an academic discipline in order to say something relevant about Africa? That's what you seem to be driving at. The fact is that guys who influence my political views like Amin and Arrighi are internationally-reputed scholars of globalism theory, and you've brushed aside everything they've said because they're not neoliberals.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I never stated that. Don't know where you got that from. All I said that receiving a nobel prize in an academic discipline makes your opinion qualified. Unless you think nobel prizes are given to random people. I have no idea who the two people you mention are and I have never brushed away anything they have said.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 it doesn't qualify every opinion you have, so why bring it up? You brought up the Nobel Prize as if it's supposed to settle matters by its mere prestige. The reason you have no idea who those people are, when you claim to be so knowledgeable about Africa and geopolitics, is because you, sir, are an idiot and an intellectual fraud. I know first-year IR undergrads who know about Amin and Arrighi; hell, I know about them, and poli sci wasn't even my major.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR No. I brought up the Nobel Prize, because the fact that Milton Friedman received gives him credibility. It is amazing how much you namedrop. "I know first-year IR undergrads who know about Amin and Arrighi..." So what? You brought them up as an example of an alternative to thinkers like Milton Friedman and I said that I didn't know them. I have never claimed to know every author or thinker who has said something about Africa. Being able to name people doesn't give you more credibility.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 the point is that you don't know about the most important thinkers to address themselves to questions of Africa's political economy, yet pretend to educate me on African political reality. This would be like me saying to an Austrian School economist that they don't know how markets work because they have not read Marx (who only addressed them in a very speculative way) and then being insulted when they bring up Hayek or Mises.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Any unbiased person who knows what is going on in Africa will know that the "pan africanism" of today has a negative effect on the continent. You seem to believe the contrary because it suits your ideology. That you have been reading books by two people I do not know doesn't make any difference.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 to be clear, I've already alluded to the influence of Friedman on international policy, when I discussed the effect of neoliberal policy from GFIs like the World Bank several posts ago. Your unwillingness to 'discuss real politics' with me, ostensibly because of my ideology, is the hallmark of ignorance. Or cowardice. Or both.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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baroh2413 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Race isn't as important as you make it to be. Every argument against your so-called ideology is made to be "racist", "Neo-colonialist" or "imperialist". "Black People" have no resonsiblity for their problems "as a people". From your perspective. Thats why it is hard, if not impossible, to discuss serious political issues with you. First of all "black people" is not one people, but several different people. The difference between the peoples of africa is bigger than between europeans.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 a bunch of claims for which you have no evidence, as is your custom. Where did I say that every argument against Pan-Africanism is racist, neo-colonialist or imperialist? Just because I think those adjectives apply to statements you've made, doesn't mean they must apply to every possible statement. Now, how do you justify the claim that the differences among Africans are greater than those among Europeans?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR The difference between pygmies of central Africa and people from Sudan is bigger than the difference between people from Portugal and people from Sweden. Likewise is the difference between people from South Africa and people from Senegal bigger than the difference between people from Germany and people from Hungary. If you had ever been to Africa (or Europe) you would know that. But since you haven't you probably think that all Africans are like the black people around you in America.
baroh2413 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I notice you have a hard time getting the names of these people you claim to respect, right. You're not a racist, yet you refer to Asians as "Orientals." You know more about Africa than me, but not enough to call the 'pygmies' by their actual name- the Ba-Twa. I find it interesting whenever white people believe that their vacation trips to 'exotic' places like Africa make them instant anthropologists. Interesting, because chauvinistic.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR You knew what I meant. So this comment has no purpose.
baroh2413 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 why not humble yourself and admit that lack of knowledge is the source of your mistakes? Is it because you're just this intransigent toward everybody, or is it that you don't like to be taught anything by a Black person? Honest question.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR It has nothing to do with color. It is because I sincerely believe that Stokely Carmichael was wrong. And he made a career out of it. How do you know what color I am?
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 bullshyt. I asked you why you won't admit that you made mistakes in your conversation with me- not whether your dislike of Ture comes from his being Black. Ture made a career out of organizing Black people. Fortunately, he didn't need Scandinavians to sanction his rhetoric to accomplish that end. Now, I can't be sure what color you are, any more than you can be sure that I've never been to Africa, but my assumption is based on the racial demographics in your country. Are you Black?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 and it's become clear at this point that you will do everything you can to avoid admitting your mistakes, because you are a coward. All of this other stuff (cultural backgrounds, writing styles, and so forth) is absolutely irrelevant.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR It is not irrelevant. It says a lot about you and how you were brainwashed into believing in reverse racism and a fake concept such as "black history". Brainwashed people usually write the way you do. Or did until I made you aware that your writing style revealed were you were coming from.I didn't make a mistake. I stated that Stokely Carmichael was a racehustler, who made things worse not better. And then I kickstarted something in you. Almost like mentioning Xenu to a Scientologist.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 lol. So now Black history is a fake concept? Yes, I can tell you that you know nothing about racial mores in American society, because any white person in this country who is not a racist would be terribly embarrassed by that statement. Now, how does my writing style reveal where I'm coming from? Do all Black people write the way I do? And how did you not make a mistake, when you claimed that Ture's work organizing Black voters was 'the core of race hustling'?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR at this point, I feel very comfortable calling you a racist. It's not a word I throw around freely, but it applies. You have absolutely no idea about Black people's freedom struggle in this country but think you are an instant expert because, after all, how hard could it be? If it wasn't for 'race-hustlers' organizing us in voter registration drives and teaching us we had a history, Black people would be much better off, like the 'Orientals.' You're a racist pig.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR You are the one who are only focusing on race. I am not. I am focusing on specific individuals who either knowingly or unknowingly has been caught up in "the black struggle" frenzy of the 20th century. You are a black racist.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I don't give a fukk about your opinion of me personally. Stick to the facts. That's all I'm interested in. Just facts.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I stated the fact that you are a racist, because base your worldview upon a black vs white dichotomy. You voiced your opinion that you thought i was a racist, because I don't buy into your opnions and your so-called ideology. I am stating a fact. You are voicing an opinion. Deal with it.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 how do you know that's what my worldview is based upon? Actually, my worldview is philosophical materialism- I don't affirm any essential difference between Black and white, only subjective historical ones. And that view is the one that most Pan-Africanists have held. I stated my opinion that you're a racist because you make racist claims like "black history is fake" and "Stokely Carmichael never contributed to anything positive," which are statements that racists make.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR That "black history" is fake is not a racist claim. And you do not have to be a racist in order claim that "Stokely Carmichael never contributed anything positive". "Philosophical materialism" is also the worldview of most white racists. They claim to base their belief on scientific and historical fact. So claiming that you are only interested in facts doesn't disqualify you as a racist. As the subject "black history" shows facts can be manipulated to support what you already "know"
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 yes it is. Just because you state something peremptorily does not make it so. To deny a historical group a history is an exercise in ignorance; when you ignore their history because of their race, it is racism. Next you'll be telling me there's no Native American history.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR "black history" and "the history of african slaves in america and their ancestors" are two different things.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 whatever you say, racist scum.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
So, what's your point? KI'm a philosophical materialist, and a consistent one. I don't believe there's any metaphysical basis for such categories as "black" and "white." And unlike materialist white supremacists, I don't think there's a genetic basis for racial inferiority. All you have to work with are my statements, so why would I not state what my worldview is when you've tried to make it a racialist one?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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@DIOPJR My point is that you are a racist
baroh2413 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Fortunately all black people do not write the way you do. Are you sure about white people being embarassed about my statement? What do you think about white history? is that a legitimate subject? Is history a matter of learning or a matter of building identity and power? The core of racehustling is utilizing weak people in order to gain power and make a living from it. Racehustlers do not want to solve problems with racetensions, because they make a living from them.
baroh2413 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
As far as your opinions on my writing, this is the last time I'll address that. I started reading newspapers when I was five years old, and read at a college level before I left grade school. I've never gotten anything but A's in any of my English or Composition classes, and was fast-tracked to advanced programs all through school. You, meanwhile, have at best a nervous grasp of English- understandable, since you're a foreigner, but don't try to blame your incomprehension on my writing style.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR That explains why you have a hard time arguing without throwing in references to 50 odd people everytime you try to build up an argument. Reading, thinking and experience goes hand in hand. Just reading can be bad for your mental health. As far as your grades go, I am not your teacher or your classmate. Nor am i going to hire you for a job, so your grades doesn't really matter to me. But you sound like you have been a good boy. You parents must be proud of you.
baroh2413 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 now, every person the West calls a 'tyrant' is not a Pan-Africanist, so it doesn't follow that 'my thinking' automatically supports tyrannies. What is clear, though, is that liberal capitalist countries have no problem in supporting tyrannies themselves, so long as they're folded into the interests of international capital. These same interests demand 'conditionalities' for Western loans that actually let loose 'free market' forces from the West, putting indigenes out of business...
DIOPJR 3 months ago
...in fact, the prevailing economic philosophy of the IMF under jackals like Wolfowitz has been, since at least the 70's, neoliberalism with the overt aim of subverting protectionism and government ownership in the developing world. That you would imply that collectivism is the biggest problem of Africa, as if free-market philosophy hasn't already been let loose there to disastrous effect, betrays your own ignorance of Africa's developmental history.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
At this point, you should stop responding. You are terribly ignorant of the American civil rights struggle, and of African political thought, so much so that you can't avoid making a serious analytical or factual mistake with every post. On top of that, you're smug as hell, and authoritarian, but without introducing any new, meaningful information into the discussion. You're the image of a paternalistic white, deigning to guide the Black man away from 'excesses'
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR That is a postulate from a man who has realised that he cannot argue when he is not in his own ballpark. Can you support your postulate with facts? Without falling back to your ready-made-arguments?
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you haven't admitted that you were wrong when you said that Ture did not contribute to anything positive. A person who cannot admit his own mistakes is not educable. What kind of precedent are you setting for good faith argumentation? By the way, the only person who has been dealing in facts this whole 'discussion' has been me. MFDP is a fact. LCFO is a fact. Global (vs. continental) Pan-Africanism figuring in the program of the African Union is a fact. As are SAPs.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 all you've done is backpedaled, made condescending remarks about how different the Black American struggle is from the African one (as if you're psychologically attuned to either), and offered sweeping assumptions about what I don't know based on my being an African in America. Or else, you've recast every statement I've made about a personality as 'name-dropping', rather than defense of that personality (i.e. Ture). Or, you've insulted my writing style.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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baroh2413 3 months ago
And I think it's funny that you label the organization of Black people for voting rights against violent racists in Alabama and Mississippi is 'race-hustling opportunism.' Race-hustling, to organize Black people into a local party in defiance of an illegal Dixiecratic political machine in Miss.? Race-hustling, to arm Black people to exercise their legal right to vote in an Alabama county where they comprise the majority? Your apathy towards Africans' suffering is in full evidence here.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
(cont.)...you pay lip-service to democracy as against 'dictatorship' in the case of Guinea but deny the importance of, and even lambaste the organization around, the principle of democracy in the African freedom struggle in the US. Thank you for unwittingly showing the contradictions in the attitude of the mainstream toward African political movements.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR it looks like you have been brainwashed. You are saying exactly what you are supposed to say. Not one of the words you wrote are an expression of thoughts that came from within you. The cult of victimization is very powerful. Be careful fellow youtuber. And good luck.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I'm brainwashed, but you can't even form a cogent reply to my arguments. What sort of nonsense is that?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR You do not argue. You namedrop and try to give me the impression that an "opportunist" is something other than what it is. I see no reason taking your arguments seriously because you only know half the story about the people you are referring to. It sounds like you base your worldview upon raceissues, which is the definition of a racist. Saying that a "dictatorship" is a relative term is ridiculous. It is because of people like you that Africa has shown very little progress since the 50s
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 please. I asked you in what sense the MFDP or the Lowndes County Freedom Organization were instances of race-baiting opportunism, and you couldn't explain. Let me be clear about this one thing, though: I don't give a damn about you and your opinion of me as a 'racist'. As far as I'm concerned, when you claim that organizing against Dixiecrats is race-baiting opportunism, you're in league with the real racists. My only purpose is to expose your hypocrisy.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Finally, it is not 'people like me', Pan-Africanists, who are responsible for Africa's condition today. Pan-Africanists do not set up exploitative Structural Adjustment Programs or World Bank loans with exorbitant interest rates. Pan-Africanists do not prop up actual opportunists like Tshombe. All of this is the work of neocolonialist apparatuses like the CIA and IMF. All you've done is hurl bad names at myself and others from the time you began posting. If you don't care to educate yourself...
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Another barrage of namedropping and farfetched conspiracy theories, instead of focusing on the real issue. You are beginning to sound like Noam Chomsky
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you've got a strange habit of redefining things. By 'name-dropping' you mean referring to actual events and people; by 'opportunism' you mean actual organizing around the political needs of disenfranchised groups; by 'conspiracy theories' you mean well-established facts that anybody can learn in an introductory African history course, or (in the cases of Lumumba and Nkrumah) by studying FBI documents released under the FOIA.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR by namedropping i mean throwing around names of people, that you have been told are your great leaders instead of forming a theoretical arguments based on your own situation and what you have experienced yourself? Writing "like Malcolm X, like Nkrumah, like Garvey, like Toure etc etc" frees you of the responsibility of writing what you, principally, think yourself. History can be used, and it can be abused so arguing against a proposition by throwing around names will get you nowhere
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 name-dropping is a kind of argument from authority. Where have I argued from authority? Merely mentioning the names of people is not the same as not having your own perspectives on things. To wit: where have I said that something is so because of such-and-such authority? Everywhere I have asked, on what basis do you malign the work of Ture as 'race-hustling opportunism'? I can't possibly pose that question without reference to his personality.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Now, if it's illegitimate to pose that kind of question, then there's no possible defense of Ture. In other words, he's always wrong, a priori, because you say so- which is clearly an irrational statement. You would have me substitute what you believe is my infallible authority (Ture) with yourself...and since I'm not in the habit of slavishly following the opinions of others, whether proven freedom fighters or European dilettantes, theres no hope of that happening. Sorry.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Stokely Carmichaels prmise is wrong. What he has to say about racerelations will only make things worse
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 which premise is wrong? You don't even have the balls to say. That Black people should right the wrongs of society themselves, instead of just speaking out against them? That urban rebellions, which have historically resulted in increased attention from the natl. govt. to poverty in the cities, are laudable? And furthermore, who the hell qualified you to speak about American race relations? Aren't you from some Nordic country with a nugatory Black population?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR The premise that you can gain anything from focusin on race in relation to politics, business or culture is wrong. Pan-Africanism is wrong. It may have started as a good idea but it lead to horrible dictatorships in many african countries and corruption and stagnation in others.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you have shown that you know nothing about race relations in America. You have not given me, or any intelligent reader, a good reason for listening to your opinions on race in politics, so this interlocution has officially become a waste of my time. If you wish to talk about these matters in a constructive way, then answer my question about the MFDP/LCFO; but please don't gloat over my withdrawal, knowing deep down that you've been shown ignorant of this subject.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
And, to be clear, real 'name-dropping' is telling me that, in making empirical statements like 'the CIA is responsible for installing a despot like Tshombe', I'm 'beginning to sound like Noam Chomsky.' You should be consistent. Finally, on what do you base your arguments? Your statements about Guinea, for example, are not based on 'theoretical arguments based on your own situation,' as you so ponderously stated it, but on the biased testimony of family members. Et Tu Brutus!
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR If Toure looks like a dictator, acts like a dictator and sounds like a dictator, don't expect me to call him a freedom fighter. But you show me why it would be unwise to even begin to argue against what you say. Instead of leading a principle discussion you have ready made examples that you throw around. And then you hope that I would start arguing against them so you could be on your homeground. That is how you recognize a namedropper
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 I refuse to talk to you about Africa's political situation until you prove yourself competent about the subject of this video, which is only fair. You can ramble on meaninglessly about dictatorship and name-dropping all you want; you can't change the fact that you've been proved wrong in your characterization of Stokely Carmichael (the last Ture I referred to; perhaps you didn't know that he changed his name to Kwame Ture?). Answer the MFDP/LCFO question or shut the hell up.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I know he changed his name to Kwame Toure, but i prefer to call him Stokely Carmichael. It suits him better. You are the one who ramble. I only answer your ramblings as good as any sane person can.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 answer the question or stop talking, coward.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR "MFDP or the Lowndes County Freedom Organization" is another one of your readymade arguments that you can throw around. I argued against your comment about Stokely Carmichael working constructively in africa with dictators and showed that I know more about Africa than you do, because you have probably never been there. Like any good namedropper you throw another example and expect me to continue. It would be a waste of time refuting all of your arguments instead of discussing principle.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 assumption after assumption after assumption. You assume that it's a 'ready-made argument', as if I expect people to overlook what Ture did in SNCC. In fact, I don't; it's probably what he's best-known for, which is why I found your comments about his 'race-hustling opportunism' all the more shocking. What you call a 'ready-made argument', I call background knowledge of the subject. I'm sorry we don't share equally in that.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR The reason i call it a "ready-made-argument" is because you are very eager to get me to explain why it is an example of "race-hustling-opportunism". I have never said that that specific incident was an example of that. But the man behind it is an example of that. A travelling demagogue building his powerbase upone "helping the oppressed" and using reverse racism and revisionist "black history" to do so.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 when I offered his work in SNCC as an example of something he's done positive, you bunched it together with his work with Toure and Nkrumah, probably because you knew nothing about it. As far as the 'traveling demagogue' crap, you do know that this speech was well after the MFDP and LCFO, right? 'Traveling' was not a part of that work; he had to live with country folk in terrible segregated conditions in Miss. and Alabama, facing down Klansmen, sheriffs, and lynch mobs.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Now, what do those conditions have to do with the work of a traveling demagogue? What does a young college student with a grad school scholarship offer from Harvard, stand to gain materially from those kinds of risks? And this is the whole point I've been making. You say all this garbage about Kwame Ture, but I doubt you've read anything by or about him from an actual book. If you did, you would understand that his politics evolved into Black Power.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 Now, MFDP and LFCO are organizations that he helped build among poor, disenfranchised Black people; they're instance of constructive work he's done, the merits of which no one, except a dyed-in-the-wool racist or a person completely ignorant of the background in which SNCC was organizing, could deny. How in the hell is that name-dropping? Is this just another case of your lexical limitations? Also, how do you know if I've been to Africa? How have you shown that you know more than me?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I have shown that I know more than you by telling you what these african leaders in your example really are. Ask anyone from an African country what they think of them today and you will be surprised. The only reason that black americans still use them as examples of good leadership is because they have never been to Africa and because they are not Africans. To them it doesn't really matter how things are in Africa because they will probably never go there.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you think that I did not know that Sekou Toure is called a dictator by the West? Yet another assumption that you've made. Now, I know plenty of Africans, from Ghana, from Nigeria, from Ethiopia, and they all greatly admire Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah. Nkrumah is so popular in Ghana today that there is not a serious party that does not claim his legacy in some way or another. So if all we're basing African mass opinion on is private conversations, you've lost.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Now, what you call 'principle' is just sentiment. You, being ignorant of the struggle of Africans with the US government, feel offended when you hear a man who has been arrested over 27 times before his mid-20's refer to Whites as honkies, or applaud Black people for violently revolting against police brutality, the murder of their leaders, slum conditions, etc. You've been so coddled by a Nordic welfare state that you don't know what anguish sounds like. How does it feel to be stereotyped?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR I do agree that living conditions and the socialsystem in scandinavia is far superior to that of America (or Africa for that sake). We're very proud of that. But that doesn't mean that we can't criticize professional troublemakers such as Stokely Carmichael.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you really have offered no reason for your characterization of 'trouble-making.' The fact that your people have no great tradition of rebelling against an imperialist power means that you might lack some context for a full appreciation of Ture's methods of agitation.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Having shown the puerility of your thinking, my only problem now is figuring out your angle. You're not smart enough to be in the employ of an intelligence agency. You're not blunt enough to be an out-and-out White Power advocate. Are you a White-minded African? A Teabagger? A John Bircher? What's your angle, reactionary? Why is your kind so keen on maligning Pan-Africanists like Kwame Ture long after they've begun their dance with the ancestors?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR OH.you have "shown the purility of my thinking" with your "thesis" my last comment. Fantastic. The identity crisis of the former black slaves is a tragedy but it shouldn't be confused with the problems of africans. What exactly is a whiteminded african? is it someone who (like the chinese and the indians) does what works for him and his country instead of adhering to a mix of outdated ideology and brainwashing from the days of the coldwar and narrowminded focus on black vs white?
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you don't know what the hell you're talking about. A White-minded African is a person who believes that every solution to their problem must come from White people. Now, the 'identity crisis' of former slaves is directly relevant to the problems of Africans- which is why Steve Biko was able to organize so many South Africans around Black Consciousness literature coming from the African Diaspora. (Do not embarrass yourself by mistaking my historical example for 'name-dropping'.)
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR You are again namedropping instead of leading an argument about principles. I am not the least bit embarrased about making you aware of that.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 quit being a coward and answer the question. What does race-hustling have to do with organizing Black people legally to press for their legal right to vote against an illegal political machine? Do you have an answer, or are you going to continue trying to save face?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
and what, exactly, 'works for Africans and their countries' and what is 'outdated ideology'? You deploy these categories as if with reference to something; but unless the 'outdated ideology' you refer to is Pan-Africanism (which is not at all Cold War ideology- which has been, from independence, a nonaligned socialist paradigm), and which is focused, not merely on racial, but also geopolitical and economic considerations, the category seems empty.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR So you think that a pragmatic approach to solving problems is "an empty category" . Why do you think orientals, jews and indians are far more succesful in America than blacks?
baroh2413 3 months ago
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DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 your grasp of English is tenuous; now I know it's because you're not an American, and not simply because you're unintelligent. My point about 'empty category' had nothing to do with the 'pragmatic approach', whatever that means. I was referring to the 'outdated ideology' you mentioned without clarification. It's a shame that you speak when you don't know, trip yourself up as much as you do, and insist on continuing to run with your pants around your ankles.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
As far as why model minorities are successful in America, it's because of the entry requirements set by the US government. African immigrants to this country are actually, statistically, the best-educated 'ethnic' group, and why? Because of the stringency of US admission requirements. It's certainly not because their culture leads to 'success' wherever they go. If it were, then most the citizens of Nigeria would be affluent. Draw the necessary inference.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR It has nothing to do with entry requirements. I am not talking about new immigrants i am talking about people who are third-fourth and fifth generation americans
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 answer the question I posed to you: what is opportunistic about organizing Black people to exercise their legal right to vote in counties where they represent the majority and their vote is suppressed by organized White violence? You said that Ture's work is the 'core of race-hustling opportunism,' but this is a counter-example that shows you don't know what you're talking about. I could swat away the dumb point you just made; answer that question first, though.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Where have i stated that this is a good example of racehustling? And why are you so obesessed with these two incidents?
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 you have a very short memory. When I brought up Ture's work as an organizer in SNCC, you brushed it aside as "the core of race hustling." If you meant to exclude that work, then that's an understandable error; but the fact is that you started off by pretending that he never did anything except complain and agitate. Those two examples show that he did much more than that, which is why I'm 'obsessed' with them, as you stupidly put it.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR He may have helped people, but his methods (agitating, racism, dividing) and the ideology (collectivism, "black power") that lay behind them are dubious to say the least.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 Ture did not come out of the womb espousing Black Power. It was a stage in the evolution of his political thinking. It was informed by his study of Malcolm and Marcus Garvey in the years of disillusionment towards integration. If he was such a persona non grata, a man of limited vision and dubious character, how did he find himself in the position of educating King on the political history of the Vietnam conflict?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 what you have to do now is to admit that you were incorrect in saying that he didn't contribute to anything positive. You yourself admitted that he 'may have' helped people. Just accept the loss and keep it movin'.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR Napoleon made a lot of changes in the french society to benefit the people and so did Gadaffi in Libya but that doesn't hide the fact that they are demagogues and deceivers (bringing up Hitler is too clicheed so I will let him rest in peace). Most racehustlers, demagogues, dictators, dirty cops and politicians once were idealists, but sadly many of them become warped and sucked into the very same thing they are fighting. (Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are prime examples of this)
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 no, this you're not allowed to do. You're trying to mire this back-and-forth in a new mud-puddle because you can't come to grips with the fact that you mischaracterized Ture. Admitting that he helped the people is admitting that he was involved in something positive. You claimed that he never has been, and now you don't have the balls to own up to your mistake. Very typical.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Now, calling the man a demagogue is yet another baseless accusation. Where is the demagoguery? Does he not believe the things he's saying? If not, how do you know? Better yet, what is your definition of a demagogue? Is it someone who polarizes public opinion to appeal to the masses? It's interesting; there is not a single independent Black leader that has not been accused of demagoguery by mainstream opinion.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
finally, your use of the epithet 'race-hustler' (which sounds especially smug from a person who has probably never been in an American Black neighborhood) is equally undefined. How is Ture hustling the people and to what end? If it's merely the things he's saying, I can point almost all of them to the influences of either Garvey, Malcolm or Nkrumah. If you believe these men, who suffered great privations for most of their lives, were 'hustlers', you'll never get it.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@baroh2413 who are the descendants of immigrants. Immigrants who faced even harsher immigration quotas than they do currently. Obviously there will be some continuity of SES from college-educated immigrants to their descendants. Now, answer the question, coward: how are the MFDP and LCFO instances of race-hustling opportunism?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR My grasp of English is good enough to understand your pretentious, pseudointellectual ramblings. The outdated ideology is that of pan-africanism and the thought of "evil western capitalist imperialists" trying to take over Africa again. The soviet union spread this propaganda in order to gain allies. But I guess it wasn't obvious what I meant. The last part of your comment says more about you than it says about me.
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 at this point, I refuse to talk to you about African politics until you can address American politics. I have plenty to say about Pan-Africanism, but you won't get that far with me without handling the lingering issue of the MFDP/LCFO, which you have *yet* to respond to...obviously out of cowardice. BTW, pretentiousness is acting like you know what you don't know. Pseudo-intellectualism is using academic language to cover up such lacunae. You're guilty of both.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
Need I mention, at this point, that you have not explained how the MFDP or the Lowndes County Freedom Organization were instances of 'race-hustling opportunism'? I would imagine it's because you didn't know about them before you summarily maligned Kwame Ture's life's work, and now you're embarrassed by your lack of knowledge. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
...on African issues, then why do you keep commenting on them? If you'll notice, I have yet to call you one bad name. I've even given you the opportunity to back up your statements, and you shrank away- without, however, refusing to return. Now who is brainwashed here? Who is the running dog for whom? Who hopes to win whom over by mere sloganeering?
DIOPJR 3 months ago
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baroh2413 3 months ago
pathetic opportunist
baroh2413 10 months ago
@baroh2413 what's pathetic is to make statements like this without backing it up. In what sense was Ture an opportunist?
DIOPJR 4 months ago
@DIOPJR he made a career out of complaining. he made things up. he agitated and he didn't contribute to anything positive.
baroh2413 4 months ago
@baroh2413 none of those things is the definition of an opportunist. It seems like you're just hurling as many calumnies as you can think up. 'He made a career out of complaining' is a statement in complete ignorance of his role in organizing the MFDP and the Lowdnes County Freedom Organization, or the work he did in Guinea under Ahmed Sekou Toure and with Kwame Nkrumah. 'Positive' is a matter of perspective. Reactionaries never think revolution is positive.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
@DIOPJR those things are the core of race hustling opportunism. Sekou Toure was a dictator. I know. I have faily from Guinea
baroh2413 3 months ago
@baroh2413 'opportunism' usually terminates in positions of privilege and power. 'Opportunism' is Negroes riding the wave of Black Power into cushy appointments under Nixon. What great privileges did KT gain from his 'race-hustling'? By the way, I don't care a whit for your characterization of Sekou Toure. 'Dictatorships' are necessitated by the historical forces; the question is whether they are for the people or for the oligarchs.
DIOPJR 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DIOPJR You are speaking as a person who was in a capitalist democracy in safe distance from Guinea at the time of Toure (or probably wasn't even born when he reigned). Stokely Carmichael became immortal and was regarded a leader because of his racehustling. Today many people regard him as a pioneer in the socalled "race struggle". He probably, as all good communists, also made a living by agitating against the enemies of the soviet union. That was probably enough for him.
baroh2413 3 months ago
Baba Kwame Ture is a soilder, a scholar, a healer, a king, a father and a hero who brought us in the struggles of our liberattion.
Baba Kwame Ture was a man who loved us and he didn't care what our enemies thought of him, because what I like of this man, he didn't give into bull from these wicked racist beasts known as the FBI, the CIA etc; because Baba Kwame Ture just blew them away one by one.
Baba Kwame Ture was inspired by Baba Kwame Nkrumah and Baba Ahmed Sekou Ture.
peasah2005 1 year ago
powerful speaker
633390 1 year ago
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633390 1 year ago
i have never seen/heard this speech before, so thank you for posting it :)
do you have anymore by Stokely Carmichael (or other civil rights leaders- i noticed you had Malcolm X too)?
TheAfrikanChannel 2 years ago