I disagree FlyingFree333... i grew up surrounded by different views and religions yet i still find my own path like all people should. I despise religion because it's pointless garbage, but i also understand why they feel the need to believe in it and how easy it is to get sucked into it. Religion has no place in our modern world and although i won't run out and punch church goers in the face, i will gladly watch religion dismantle itself over time which is what it's doing.
Got creative and loaded the video into Windows Movie Maker twice, once as the video track and once again as the background soundtrack, the two audio tracks blended perfectly and boosted the audio nicely. Thanks for all your help, I posted the new video as a response to your agnostic video, you can delete the first video response if you like.
Actually, there kind of is a good reason for human monogamy in the short term: Lengthy human adolescence. Humans are immature and fragile for many years after being born. Chimpanzees are able to take care of themselves after only a few years and reach full sexual maturity after only 7 or 8. Of course, one could make the argument that humans only take so long to mature because of our Victorian tradition of "childhood" noting that the age of adulthood in other cultures is usually around 12.
Sure, but if I'm devoting resources to raise my children, why would I want my partner to become pregnant again with another mans child? So that I can devote my limited resources to raising someone else's child? Likewise, why would she want me to impregnate someone else, thus dividing my resources between two children, one of which is not hers? Once the child is mature we can go our separate ways.
Additional partners/children join the family unit increasing the resources and parents available. More breadwinners, more caregivers/babysitters, the unit is more stable, more watchful eyes to prevent abuse and neglect and the family is less disrupted by any individual parent leaving and with more sexual/emotional options available less motivation for individuals to leave.
You are assuming that additional parents actually give a damn. The only assumption I have introduced is the idea of two parents with an interest in raising their children to maturity. In that situation, there is a clear advantage for the offspring if the parents are monogamous. Don't get me wrong, I am not a practitioner of monogamy at all. I keep a bullpen of women that I sleep with, and they all know the score. I'm just giving you one example where monogamy is useful.
You are assuming the original parents give a damn. I have seen no circumstance where 2 parents are better than 3 or 4 and many where extra are better, for example it would be nearly impossible for a parent to molest a child in a household with several other mothers and fathers around, intimidating one partner into silence is a whole lot easier than intimidating say 3 of them.
Oh I agree, and I do. At one time many of the sexual taboos of religion served a useful function, but technology has made them irrelevant, and in some cases harmful to our society.
Also religion benefited from breaking families down to smaller units, they were easier to control and break apart and more likely people would die without heirs so the church would keep their land and wealth. All cults rely on isolating people, large families are harder to indoctrinate. In addition one of the greatest powers over people the church had is you couldn't have sex without being married and couldn't marry without the church's consent. They literally held everyone by the short hairs.
I disagree with you slightly. People outside the church dying without heirs only served the church's interest if the person could be persuaded not to give the land to the King or another relative. Now celibacy among clergy was in fact used to ensure that clergy died without heirs, thus allowing the church to acquire their holdings. Clergy often made quite a lot of money. This was exacerbated if the clergy member himself was heir to property or money. That's how the church amassed so much wealth.
Affirmed members of the church who had no heirs had their wealth taken by the church. Also the church could annul any marriage they wanted thereby invalidating any heirs or could prevent any offspring from marrying and producing legitimate heirs. Monogamous marriage gave the church an incredible amount of power over its followers and their lives and wealth, even influencing politics by controlling political marriages.
Yup tried that already, the volume was already maxxed. Any other program I've tried to use either doesn't have an option or won't load mp4 or flv files. Very frustrating.
Yeah I know I don't know what happened I used the same equipment and settings as my problem with religion video but for some reason the volume tanked and I haven't been able to find a way to boost the volume on an mp4 or flv file. If you know of a way please let me know.
Correct me if I am wrong but there is a psychological aspect to evolution as well as a biological one. Once we became self aware, social constructs came into place as emotional stabilizers. The concept of god was one of them.
Emotionally someone may feel that their partner having other partners means that they no longer care for them or are not interested in them or do not love them. That is what I think is the underlying reason. Cultural and religious themes too, but thats where it starts
There are obviously reasons why anything exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that those things are successful or beneficial. Religion obviously causes much more harm than good and the statistics show that monogamy does the same. Both seek to suppress human nature by making people feel ashamed and inadequate for being human. Just because a particular concept caught on over another one doesn't always mean it is a better one, for example the only reason christianity is more widespread than...
...other religions is 1 man deciding to make it the state religion of Rome. Coincidentally that religion also heavily endorsed monogamy. How would the world look if a different religion had been chosen, or if none had?
My point is regardless of how events came to be, the stats show monogamy is unsuccessful even in the most heavily indoctrinated cultures, it's simply too contrary to human nature.
If you don't want to be monogamous, no one is forcing you to.
You can claim that we are indoctrinated into anything that a culture actively promotes. You are mixing apples and oranges when you compare people's religious beliefs to their reproductive partner preferences. Rather than a choice between a fictional god and reality, this is a choice between two lifestyles.
Actually that's not true, polygamy is illegal in most western countries, but even if it were a free choice that is beside the point.
You are correct, as I stated in my video we are indoctrinated into most things we believe because of our parents and our culture and not all things we are indoctrinated into are harmful, indoctrination is simply learning without reason, accepting simply because we are told.
There are those that argue religion belief is harmless too, and they are equally wrong.
This is something I've been trying to tell my friends and family for a long time. Some of them say "your lucky that you don't get jealous" and some of them say "it's ok for guys but it's different for women. but the most offensive thing for me when they say "then it's not really love" especially when I know for a fact that those people have either cheated on there gf/bf or, having passed on opportunities to cheat, resent their parters for it. it really is a sad state of affairs. no pun intended.
So you claim my partners aren't people I know and trust just because there is more than one of them?
Belief in god doesn't feel unnatural to a christian either, how you feel about a subject is irrelevant.
When everything in a society reinforces the ideal of monogamy and still almost nobody follows it, what other reasonable explanation is there other than it's simply completely against our nature.
I never said monogamy should be outlawed, only that it is unnatural and unsuccessful.
I didn't say that, whatever consenting adults want to do is fine (assuming it doesn't infringe on others rights).
Monogomy has been successfull for me and my wife and that's all that matters to me. I've never cheated.
how it feels is irrelevant to the god question because feelings don't create reality. Feelings ARE relevant to personal choices though, which this is. It's like saying peanut butter is wrong because you don't like it.
You made the claim your experiences are more rewarding because they are shared with someone you know and trust as an argument for monogamy, automatically implying that someone with multiple partners can't know and trust them the way you do your single partner. Otherwise your statement is pointless.
The fact that the indoctrination somewhat worked for you doesn't negate that it doesn't work for 80% or so of people and you have no idea what you'd be like if you hadn't been indoctrinated.
Again I didn't say anything about a person making a choice for themselves is wrong, I'm saying indoctrination is what causes monogamy and that it's not natural. If you were raised in a polygamous culture your opinions on the subject would be different, as would be most of your opinions on most subjects given different environments.
Just like with god, would you have even known to try monogamy if you hadn't been told to? I see no evidence it is a natural impulse.
I don't know the answer but the key would be if monogomy (or more likely serial monogomy) developed in human societies before there was written language and chance for "indoctrination."
Considering how time and resource dependant human children are I DO see a survival benefit to serial monogomy, and tradition/religion probably made the push for permanent monogomy.
So my guess is some form of seriel or heirarchical monogomy developed through evolution.
You think written language is required for indoctrination? Anything a child is told or exposed to repeatedly is indoctrination, you don't even need spoken language.
The rest of your comment only demonstrates you don't know anything about the subject matter since your entire argument is the opposite of the facts. A family with multiple fathers and mothers increases the resources and stability of the family unit and decreases the loss when one parent leaves or dies.
Your earlier arguments of 'it's a personal choice' and 'it feels right for me' are no different than a christian saying the same thing. Subjective arguments are the last bastion of the irrational and indoctrinated. The fact that monogamy or christianity feels good to you does not count for anything; personal experience does not equal evidence. Notice in my video I did not make references to my personal experiences, only facts and logic, you do this with religion then abandon it with monogamy...
...this is the point I was making in the video; atheists claim to be rational and logical just because they managed to get the god question right, but most are just as dogmatic when the subject changes to any of their closely held beliefs. You have offered no facts, only personal feelings/beliefs with nothing but personal experience to base them on, and also have shown a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter you are contesting...
...which begs the question if you know nothing about it, why are you so determined to prove it wrong? Sounds like you have a need to believe and so have a knee-jerk defence response like any theist about god. Otherwise why fight to defend your position against one you've never even researched or considered?
I never said I don't know anything about it. And there aren't clear facts to present, your being illogical and irrational if you think there is evidence that clearly demonstrates one to be better than the other. Where is the double blind study? What would be your control? What's your measure of success?
You are speculating as much as I am your just being dogmatic about your belief. I'm being honest in saying I don't know.
You didn't have to say you don't know anything about it, your comments made that abundantly clear. And if you think there are no clear facts then you really didn't listen to the video.
I'm not defending anything except my right to do what I want. YOU are the one who made this video and ASKED my opinion!?!? YOU seem to be seeking validation.
Why do you care what I think, if you want to try polygamy go for it!
Indoctrination has a specific and usually negative connotation and thus is different than tradition or knowledge. Is the english language "indoctrination?" No of course not.
What's the point of your video if you simply attack people with speculation?
Yes you obviously missed the point of the video, as evidenced by every statement you've made. You are exactly the kind of atheist I was referring to, you think you're rational and above indoctrination simply because you happen to not believe in god but every statement you've made shows theistic behaviour, just on a different subject, and just like a theist you can't see it. I'm sure you find this all offensive and can't imagine why anyone would call you indoctrinated and that's the point.
Actually I think you don't know what speculation is. Again what is your control how did you take your "data" and clearly show a causal link to monogomy?
Your using classic projection here, assigning to others what you suffer from.
Again, WHY DO YOU CARE! Truly rational people make thier own decisions and don't need validation from others, only from objective evidence and there is NO OBJECTIVE evidence for this discussion and your blind to that or being dogmatic in your belief.
Why I care? Why do atheists care about religion? I care because I'm an ethical person seeing a huge wrong being done.
My data is biology, clearly showing humans are not naturally monogamous; statistics showing monogamy clearly isn't working even in the most indoctrinated monogamous cultures. I don't know why I need to repeat those they are very clear in the video to anyone actually listening.
Your accusations of my ulterior motives is again a tactic used by defensive theists.
We atheists fight theists NOT BECUASE they are wrong but because they try and force us to follow thier ways too. It's purely a legal matter for me. We all have the right to believe whatever we want.
Your "data" is NOT a scientific study and doesn't REMOTELY isolate monogomy as the single variable. Your conclusions is speculation ONLY!.
To be clear I'm not saying monogomy is right and your wrong I'm saying there is no objective data with which to determine the answer.
Is polygamy legal in your country? No. This is very much a legal battle as well as a human suffering one. The divorce, abuse, neglect, rape, suicide, violence, etc, rates are appalling.
I'm not saying you don't have the right to be monogamous anymore than I would take away someone's right to believe in god. I'm saying society shouldn't ban polygamy or endorse monogamy, just like you would allow your government to promote islam or ban atheism.
I see a man juggling knives and an hour later he has a hole in his hand is it reasonable to speculate that one had to do with the other?
When you force everyone to live in unnatural marriages then end up with insanely high divorce, infidelity and domestic violence rates you don't think they have anything to do with each other?
How are you different than a christian claiming religion had nothing to do with 9/11 or the crusades?
There you go lumping everyone into one category again.
Cheating isn't the only reason people get divorced, the only reason people have domestic violence, and rape. If you had polygamy as the norm the same problems would remain.
I also didn't say monogamy is wrong, I said it's not natural and not successful. The religion of monogamy, the mindless indoctrination of it and the denial of any other alternative is wrong. It's true that a few people can make monogamy work, but the vast majority can't and even the ones that can would still probably benefit from having other options, but our culture forces everyone into the broken mold of monogamy at the very clear cost of human suffering.
"Why I care? Why do atheists care about religion? I care because I'm an ethical person seeing a huge wrong being done."
Your video is about indoctrination via popular culture norms just as eating meat is a popular cultural norm. Eating meat may be natural, but it is not ethical.
You speak against religion because you state that you are an ethical person and see a huge wrong being done. If you are both rational and ethical then it might make sense to think about why you eat meat.
I will indulge this one response this is not a video about veganism and I won't allow it to be hijacked. Further comments will be deleted.
As you said eating meat is natural, unlike religion or monogamy, it is also beneficial which is why vegans either take supplements or have dietary health issues. The animals I eat are bred to be food and couldn't exist in the wild so if we didn't eat them there would be no market for them so no reason for farmers to keep them alive and they would go extinct.
Why should function dictate purpose? And why should we use other primates as a standard for how we act?
We should act in accordance to the direction we want our species to evolve. If we aim for polygamous relationships, there is going to be more evolutionary progression toward refining sexual organs over anything else.
I'm not saying polygamy is a bad thing, but I don't think it should be the primary relationship model.
Just like with communism, the attempt to create equality doesn't work.
'We should act in accordance to the direction we want our species to evolve.'
'...the attempt to create equality doesn't work.'
Nice self contradiction there, typical of indoctrinated reasoning.
Even if you choose to ignore the fact monogamy isn't natural (which you clearly do) you are also ignoring the fact it doesn't work, which I made clear in the video and you have chosen to ignore.
Monogamy is a religion, just like any other, and like all religion is irrational and harmful.
Oh please, at least have the courtesy to be creative with your insults. What a bore.
"monogamy isn't natural"
Who determines what is natural? Seriously. Take a look at TAA's video on "unnatural homosexuality" and just replace homosexuality with monogamy watch?v=-jrh8VVwMI4
"It doesn't work"
Monogamy doesn't work when mixed with a society that promotes polygamy. You're equating the symptoms of a dynamic problem to one minor factor.
Western culture promotes polygamy does it? Really sparky? What genius reasoning do you have for that little gem? Your arguments here are as lame and ass backwards as they were in the duality video. You are hopelessly indoctrinated and couldn't form a coherent argument to save your life and as I stated in my video I have no patience for fools.
"Monogamy is a religion, just like any other, and like all religion is irrational and harmful."
Nice work with the trite blanket statements. Religion isn't harmful, social segregation is. The entire group mentality of "us" versus "them" is the only real killer.
Just on a side note, you realize that you can be indoctrinated into an atheistic belief, yes?
Part of monogamy has to do with genetics, and the empathic response. For some, it is their inherent nature to look for monogamy.
Monogamy is possibly a product of social negotiation: if all the fertile females are only mating with a few high status males, there are likely to be a lot of frustrated single males picking up weapons. Monogamy, even if imperfectly imposed (perhaps *especially* if imperfectly imposed) probably makes for a more peaceful and stable society.
Apparently you didn't listen to the video (understandable given the audio levels) the stats show monogamy is a miserable failure, it CAUSES violence and unhappiness, and nobody is actually being monogamous, they are only faking it because they think that everyone else is monogamous. Violence rates towards women are highest in the most monogamous cultures. You are also assuming non-monogamy means polygyny (men with harems) which is another failed male egocentric institution.
Obviously, there's a certain amount of violence associated with monogamy, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be more violence associated with polygamy or a general sexual free-for-all. There are scholarly papers that have been published reporting a correlation between polygyny and violence, and suggesting that the reason for this is broadly as I described. If polygyny is balanced out by polyandry, the problem should disappear, but such social arrangements are not common.
You don't balance it with polyandry, you have real polygamy, true equality. And as far as what social arrangements are common or not that's irrelevant, we decide what our social conventions are.
Show me any statistics showing monogamy improved a society, reduced violence, increased happiness, reduced child abuse, etc. I'll give you a hint, you won't find them because they don't exist. And again trotting out any stats to do with Mormon or Muslim polygynists is a waste of time, you're basically showing stats for slavery and I'm pretty sure we're already aware slavery doesn't work. In societies with equality and non-monogamy there is less conflict, more stable families and less abuse.
"you won't find them because they don't exist. " That's a one-sided argument. Statistics showing that polyamory improved society, etc., don't exist either. There's no solid statistical support for either position, and of course no controlled experiments have been conducted and reported. We're in the realm of speculation here. Polyamory might help create a better society, but we don't know.
The point is there is conclusive proof that monogamy, polygyny and polyandry don't work because they are all contrary to human nature. There are statistics showing that the more sexually open a culture is the healthier it is, that can be extrapolated. Also you can go into any polyamorous subculture and poll the rates of violence and abuse and the the level of stability, and even without looking simple common sense will tell you it's lower.
Look at the stats for places like Amsterdam and other places in Europe that are more sexually open (in some cases even sex in public is legal) and in every case their rates of violent crime, crime against women, divorce, etc. go way down. It's simple common sense, you deny or suppress human nature you're going to get misery and if you do it long enough people will explode in one way or another. For polyamorous people, meet them in any city and see if any know of any violence by their members.
Lots of hypotheses are "simple common sense", but still turn out to be wrong. Looking at the UK, I see that it was pretty monogamous in the 1950s, and has tended increasingly to the polyamorous since, and at the same time crime - of the most brutal and depraved sort - seems to have increased in tandem with this. Could I infer a causal link? Some do, and even think it obvious to common sense. I'd like to see more solid evidence either way.
As I said, poll the polyamory communities anywhere and see if you can find one case of spousal or child abuse in a poly household. I've yet to find a single case and I've talked to polys in dozens of cities, they are small communities, had there been any instances everyone would have heard of it. Also I see no evidence that the UK has abandoned its endorsement of monogamy.
Regardless, all of this is beyond the scope of this video, the point of this video is simply that monogamy isn't natural.
Hard to abuse your wife and kids in front of your other wives and all their husbands. Abuse happens in secret and when one person is in an unbalanced position of power. Also for stability in a monogamous or harem situation when the head of the household or leaves the family structure is destroyed, in a polygamous one with multiple husbands and wives the loss of any one parent doesn't disrupt the family structure.
Interesting, it's not true that 'monogamous species' ignore others when they've found their mate. There's a high rate of 'cheating' among these species and many of the fathers are not raising their own kids... monogamy with a bit of cheating going on is a pretty optimum strategy for people since our kids are so frail for so long. I'd agree it's mostly a cultural thing. Being an atheist doesn't mean you disregard cultural influences.
No that is species that were thought to be monogamous but were later discovered to be non-monogamous through DNA testing. 3% of species are actually monogamous.
My point was many atheists believe themselves above indoctrination and irrationality. I am simply showing that not to be the case, monogamy is more of a religion than religion is and everybody buys into it.
I don't know what happened with the audio, used the same setup as my problem with religion video and this one just came out quiet for no reason. I've tried finding a program to adjust the volume in it but they either won't load the mp4 or flv files or don't have an option to increase the volume.
As a transsexual - I can tell you, I automatically can sort out the rational from the irrational!
Polygamy is fine, we are pansexuals via evolution, also hermaphroditic (sponges), there is alot of things that humans are unwilling to face about themselves.
I disagree FlyingFree333... i grew up surrounded by different views and religions yet i still find my own path like all people should. I despise religion because it's pointless garbage, but i also understand why they feel the need to believe in it and how easy it is to get sucked into it. Religion has no place in our modern world and although i won't run out and punch church goers in the face, i will gladly watch religion dismantle itself over time which is what it's doing.
AtheismISgod 6 months ago
I've posted a new version of this video with improved audio levels, please post your comments there.
watch?v=TQRuBSeAZHA
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Got creative and loaded the video into Windows Movie Maker twice, once as the video track and once again as the background soundtrack, the two audio tracks blended perfectly and boosted the audio nicely. Thanks for all your help, I posted the new video as a response to your agnostic video, you can delete the first video response if you like.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
how did you make this video?
DrJobinsp 2 years ago
Windows Movie Maker and a Logitech Fusion webcam.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Actually, there kind of is a good reason for human monogamy in the short term: Lengthy human adolescence. Humans are immature and fragile for many years after being born. Chimpanzees are able to take care of themselves after only a few years and reach full sexual maturity after only 7 or 8. Of course, one could make the argument that humans only take so long to mature because of our Victorian tradition of "childhood" noting that the age of adulthood in other cultures is usually around 12.
h8uall66 2 years ago
That's not a reason for monogamy, that's a reason for parenting.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Sure, but if I'm devoting resources to raise my children, why would I want my partner to become pregnant again with another mans child? So that I can devote my limited resources to raising someone else's child? Likewise, why would she want me to impregnate someone else, thus dividing my resources between two children, one of which is not hers? Once the child is mature we can go our separate ways.
h8uall66 2 years ago
Additional partners/children join the family unit increasing the resources and parents available. More breadwinners, more caregivers/babysitters, the unit is more stable, more watchful eyes to prevent abuse and neglect and the family is less disrupted by any individual parent leaving and with more sexual/emotional options available less motivation for individuals to leave.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
You are assuming that additional parents actually give a damn. The only assumption I have introduced is the idea of two parents with an interest in raising their children to maturity. In that situation, there is a clear advantage for the offspring if the parents are monogamous. Don't get me wrong, I am not a practitioner of monogamy at all. I keep a bullpen of women that I sleep with, and they all know the score. I'm just giving you one example where monogamy is useful.
h8uall66 2 years ago
You are assuming the original parents give a damn. I have seen no circumstance where 2 parents are better than 3 or 4 and many where extra are better, for example it would be nearly impossible for a parent to molest a child in a household with several other mothers and fathers around, intimidating one partner into silence is a whole lot easier than intimidating say 3 of them.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Also you can have multiple sexual partners without impregnating anyone, we're not in the middle ages anymore.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Oh I agree, and I do. At one time many of the sexual taboos of religion served a useful function, but technology has made them irrelevant, and in some cases harmful to our society.
h8uall66 2 years ago
Exactly.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Also religion benefited from breaking families down to smaller units, they were easier to control and break apart and more likely people would die without heirs so the church would keep their land and wealth. All cults rely on isolating people, large families are harder to indoctrinate. In addition one of the greatest powers over people the church had is you couldn't have sex without being married and couldn't marry without the church's consent. They literally held everyone by the short hairs.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
I disagree with you slightly. People outside the church dying without heirs only served the church's interest if the person could be persuaded not to give the land to the King or another relative. Now celibacy among clergy was in fact used to ensure that clergy died without heirs, thus allowing the church to acquire their holdings. Clergy often made quite a lot of money. This was exacerbated if the clergy member himself was heir to property or money. That's how the church amassed so much wealth.
h8uall66 2 years ago
Affirmed members of the church who had no heirs had their wealth taken by the church. Also the church could annul any marriage they wanted thereby invalidating any heirs or could prevent any offspring from marrying and producing legitimate heirs. Monogamous marriage gave the church an incredible amount of power over its followers and their lives and wealth, even influencing politics by controlling political marriages.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Yup tried that already, the volume was already maxxed. Any other program I've tried to use either doesn't have an option or won't load mp4 or flv files. Very frustrating.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Yeah I know I don't know what happened I used the same equipment and settings as my problem with religion video but for some reason the volume tanked and I haven't been able to find a way to boost the volume on an mp4 or flv file. If you know of a way please let me know.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Correct me if I am wrong but there is a psychological aspect to evolution as well as a biological one. Once we became self aware, social constructs came into place as emotional stabilizers. The concept of god was one of them.
Emotionally someone may feel that their partner having other partners means that they no longer care for them or are not interested in them or do not love them. That is what I think is the underlying reason. Cultural and religious themes too, but thats where it starts
Raptor302 2 years ago
There are obviously reasons why anything exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that those things are successful or beneficial. Religion obviously causes much more harm than good and the statistics show that monogamy does the same. Both seek to suppress human nature by making people feel ashamed and inadequate for being human. Just because a particular concept caught on over another one doesn't always mean it is a better one, for example the only reason christianity is more widespread than...
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
...other religions is 1 man deciding to make it the state religion of Rome. Coincidentally that religion also heavily endorsed monogamy. How would the world look if a different religion had been chosen, or if none had?
My point is regardless of how events came to be, the stats show monogamy is unsuccessful even in the most heavily indoctrinated cultures, it's simply too contrary to human nature.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
If you don't want to be monogamous, no one is forcing you to.
You can claim that we are indoctrinated into anything that a culture actively promotes. You are mixing apples and oranges when you compare people's religious beliefs to their reproductive partner preferences. Rather than a choice between a fictional god and reality, this is a choice between two lifestyles.
Raptor302 2 years ago
Actually that's not true, polygamy is illegal in most western countries, but even if it were a free choice that is beside the point.
You are correct, as I stated in my video we are indoctrinated into most things we believe because of our parents and our culture and not all things we are indoctrinated into are harmful, indoctrination is simply learning without reason, accepting simply because we are told.
There are those that argue religion belief is harmless too, and they are equally wrong.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
This is something I've been trying to tell my friends and family for a long time. Some of them say "your lucky that you don't get jealous" and some of them say "it's ok for guys but it's different for women. but the most offensive thing for me when they say "then it's not really love" especially when I know for a fact that those people have either cheated on there gf/bf or, having passed on opportunities to cheat, resent their parters for it. it really is a sad state of affairs. no pun intended.
LukeOfTroy 2 years ago
You could argue about what should be legal but personal choice is just that choice.
I am a monogomous atheist and don't feel it's at all unnatural. For me experiences are more rewarding when shared with people I know and trust.
And your just speculating, there are FAR to many factors the correctly attribute anything to monogomy alone, or at all.
dlandon2000 2 years ago
So you claim my partners aren't people I know and trust just because there is more than one of them?
Belief in god doesn't feel unnatural to a christian either, how you feel about a subject is irrelevant.
When everything in a society reinforces the ideal of monogamy and still almost nobody follows it, what other reasonable explanation is there other than it's simply completely against our nature.
I never said monogamy should be outlawed, only that it is unnatural and unsuccessful.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
"So you claim ... of them?"
I didn't say that, whatever consenting adults want to do is fine (assuming it doesn't infringe on others rights).
Monogomy has been successfull for me and my wife and that's all that matters to me. I've never cheated.
how it feels is irrelevant to the god question because feelings don't create reality. Feelings ARE relevant to personal choices though, which this is. It's like saying peanut butter is wrong because you don't like it.
dlandon2000 2 years ago
You made the claim your experiences are more rewarding because they are shared with someone you know and trust as an argument for monogamy, automatically implying that someone with multiple partners can't know and trust them the way you do your single partner. Otherwise your statement is pointless.
The fact that the indoctrination somewhat worked for you doesn't negate that it doesn't work for 80% or so of people and you have no idea what you'd be like if you hadn't been indoctrinated.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Again I didn't say anything about a person making a choice for themselves is wrong, I'm saying indoctrination is what causes monogamy and that it's not natural. If you were raised in a polygamous culture your opinions on the subject would be different, as would be most of your opinions on most subjects given different environments.
Just like with god, would you have even known to try monogamy if you hadn't been told to? I see no evidence it is a natural impulse.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
I don't know the answer but the key would be if monogomy (or more likely serial monogomy) developed in human societies before there was written language and chance for "indoctrination."
Considering how time and resource dependant human children are I DO see a survival benefit to serial monogomy, and tradition/religion probably made the push for permanent monogomy.
So my guess is some form of seriel or heirarchical monogomy developed through evolution.
dlandon2000 2 years ago
You think written language is required for indoctrination? Anything a child is told or exposed to repeatedly is indoctrination, you don't even need spoken language.
The rest of your comment only demonstrates you don't know anything about the subject matter since your entire argument is the opposite of the facts. A family with multiple fathers and mothers increases the resources and stability of the family unit and decreases the loss when one parent leaves or dies.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Your earlier arguments of 'it's a personal choice' and 'it feels right for me' are no different than a christian saying the same thing. Subjective arguments are the last bastion of the irrational and indoctrinated. The fact that monogamy or christianity feels good to you does not count for anything; personal experience does not equal evidence. Notice in my video I did not make references to my personal experiences, only facts and logic, you do this with religion then abandon it with monogamy...
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
...this is the point I was making in the video; atheists claim to be rational and logical just because they managed to get the god question right, but most are just as dogmatic when the subject changes to any of their closely held beliefs. You have offered no facts, only personal feelings/beliefs with nothing but personal experience to base them on, and also have shown a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter you are contesting...
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
...which begs the question if you know nothing about it, why are you so determined to prove it wrong? Sounds like you have a need to believe and so have a knee-jerk defence response like any theist about god. Otherwise why fight to defend your position against one you've never even researched or considered?
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
I never said I don't know anything about it. And there aren't clear facts to present, your being illogical and irrational if you think there is evidence that clearly demonstrates one to be better than the other. Where is the double blind study? What would be your control? What's your measure of success?
You are speculating as much as I am your just being dogmatic about your belief. I'm being honest in saying I don't know.
dlandon2000 2 years ago
You didn't have to say you don't know anything about it, your comments made that abundantly clear. And if you think there are no clear facts then you really didn't listen to the video.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
I'm not defending anything except my right to do what I want. YOU are the one who made this video and ASKED my opinion!?!? YOU seem to be seeking validation.
Why do you care what I think, if you want to try polygamy go for it!
Indoctrination has a specific and usually negative connotation and thus is different than tradition or knowledge. Is the english language "indoctrination?" No of course not.
What's the point of your video if you simply attack people with speculation?
dlandon2000 2 years ago
Yes you obviously missed the point of the video, as evidenced by every statement you've made. You are exactly the kind of atheist I was referring to, you think you're rational and above indoctrination simply because you happen to not believe in god but every statement you've made shows theistic behaviour, just on a different subject, and just like a theist you can't see it. I'm sure you find this all offensive and can't imagine why anyone would call you indoctrinated and that's the point.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Actually I think you don't know what speculation is. Again what is your control how did you take your "data" and clearly show a causal link to monogomy?
Your using classic projection here, assigning to others what you suffer from.
Again, WHY DO YOU CARE! Truly rational people make thier own decisions and don't need validation from others, only from objective evidence and there is NO OBJECTIVE evidence for this discussion and your blind to that or being dogmatic in your belief.
dlandon2000 2 years ago
Why I care? Why do atheists care about religion? I care because I'm an ethical person seeing a huge wrong being done.
My data is biology, clearly showing humans are not naturally monogamous; statistics showing monogamy clearly isn't working even in the most indoctrinated monogamous cultures. I don't know why I need to repeat those they are very clear in the video to anyone actually listening.
Your accusations of my ulterior motives is again a tactic used by defensive theists.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
We atheists fight theists NOT BECUASE they are wrong but because they try and force us to follow thier ways too. It's purely a legal matter for me. We all have the right to believe whatever we want.
Your "data" is NOT a scientific study and doesn't REMOTELY isolate monogomy as the single variable. Your conclusions is speculation ONLY!.
To be clear I'm not saying monogomy is right and your wrong I'm saying there is no objective data with which to determine the answer.
dlandon2000 2 years ago
Is polygamy legal in your country? No. This is very much a legal battle as well as a human suffering one. The divorce, abuse, neglect, rape, suicide, violence, etc, rates are appalling.
I'm not saying you don't have the right to be monogamous anymore than I would take away someone's right to believe in god. I'm saying society shouldn't ban polygamy or endorse monogamy, just like you would allow your government to promote islam or ban atheism.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
"The divorce, abuse, neglect, rape, suicide, violence, etc, rates are appalling."
If you really attribute those to monogamy, then I think you have crossed into the realm of speculation.
Raptor302 2 years ago
I see a man juggling knives and an hour later he has a hole in his hand is it reasonable to speculate that one had to do with the other?
When you force everyone to live in unnatural marriages then end up with insanely high divorce, infidelity and domestic violence rates you don't think they have anything to do with each other?
How are you different than a christian claiming religion had nothing to do with 9/11 or the crusades?
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
*rolls eyes*
There you go lumping everyone into one category again.
Cheating isn't the only reason people get divorced, the only reason people have domestic violence, and rape. If you had polygamy as the norm the same problems would remain.
Raptor302 2 years ago
But would they exist to the extent we have them today?
I think the fear and social ramifications of divorce in a number of cultures keeps abusive people together and leads to violence.
chupamiubre 2 years ago
I also didn't say monogamy is wrong, I said it's not natural and not successful. The religion of monogamy, the mindless indoctrination of it and the denial of any other alternative is wrong. It's true that a few people can make monogamy work, but the vast majority can't and even the ones that can would still probably benefit from having other options, but our culture forces everyone into the broken mold of monogamy at the very clear cost of human suffering.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Just wondering.. Do you eat animals?
billyzelsnack 2 years ago
Yes and I certainly hope you are not going to go on some vegan tear and attempt to hijack these comments.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
You wrote..
"Why I care? Why do atheists care about religion? I care because I'm an ethical person seeing a huge wrong being done."
Your video is about indoctrination via popular culture norms just as eating meat is a popular cultural norm. Eating meat may be natural, but it is not ethical.
You speak against religion because you state that you are an ethical person and see a huge wrong being done. If you are both rational and ethical then it might make sense to think about why you eat meat.
billyzelsnack 2 years ago
I will indulge this one response this is not a video about veganism and I won't allow it to be hijacked. Further comments will be deleted.
As you said eating meat is natural, unlike religion or monogamy, it is also beneficial which is why vegans either take supplements or have dietary health issues. The animals I eat are bred to be food and couldn't exist in the wild so if we didn't eat them there would be no market for them so no reason for farmers to keep them alive and they would go extinct.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Why should function dictate purpose? And why should we use other primates as a standard for how we act?
We should act in accordance to the direction we want our species to evolve. If we aim for polygamous relationships, there is going to be more evolutionary progression toward refining sexual organs over anything else.
I'm not saying polygamy is a bad thing, but I don't think it should be the primary relationship model.
Just like with communism, the attempt to create equality doesn't work.
Ephemerance 2 years ago
'We should act in accordance to the direction we want our species to evolve.'
'...the attempt to create equality doesn't work.'
Nice self contradiction there, typical of indoctrinated reasoning.
Even if you choose to ignore the fact monogamy isn't natural (which you clearly do) you are also ignoring the fact it doesn't work, which I made clear in the video and you have chosen to ignore.
Monogamy is a religion, just like any other, and like all religion is irrational and harmful.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
"typical of indoctrinated reasoning."
Oh please, at least have the courtesy to be creative with your insults. What a bore.
"monogamy isn't natural"
Who determines what is natural? Seriously. Take a look at TAA's video on "unnatural homosexuality" and just replace homosexuality with monogamy watch?v=-jrh8VVwMI4
"It doesn't work"
Monogamy doesn't work when mixed with a society that promotes polygamy. You're equating the symptoms of a dynamic problem to one minor factor.
Ephemerance 2 years ago
Western culture promotes polygamy does it? Really sparky? What genius reasoning do you have for that little gem? Your arguments here are as lame and ass backwards as they were in the duality video. You are hopelessly indoctrinated and couldn't form a coherent argument to save your life and as I stated in my video I have no patience for fools.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
"Monogamy is a religion, just like any other, and like all religion is irrational and harmful."
Nice work with the trite blanket statements. Religion isn't harmful, social segregation is. The entire group mentality of "us" versus "them" is the only real killer.
Just on a side note, you realize that you can be indoctrinated into an atheistic belief, yes?
Part of monogamy has to do with genetics, and the empathic response. For some, it is their inherent nature to look for monogamy.
Ephemerance 2 years ago
Your ignorance is clearly displayed here as well, there are no atheist beliefs and you clearly know nothing about genetics.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Monogamy is possibly a product of social negotiation: if all the fertile females are only mating with a few high status males, there are likely to be a lot of frustrated single males picking up weapons. Monogamy, even if imperfectly imposed (perhaps *especially* if imperfectly imposed) probably makes for a more peaceful and stable society.
73elephants 2 years ago
Apparently you didn't listen to the video (understandable given the audio levels) the stats show monogamy is a miserable failure, it CAUSES violence and unhappiness, and nobody is actually being monogamous, they are only faking it because they think that everyone else is monogamous. Violence rates towards women are highest in the most monogamous cultures. You are also assuming non-monogamy means polygyny (men with harems) which is another failed male egocentric institution.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Obviously, there's a certain amount of violence associated with monogamy, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be more violence associated with polygamy or a general sexual free-for-all. There are scholarly papers that have been published reporting a correlation between polygyny and violence, and suggesting that the reason for this is broadly as I described. If polygyny is balanced out by polyandry, the problem should disappear, but such social arrangements are not common.
73elephants 2 years ago
You don't balance it with polyandry, you have real polygamy, true equality. And as far as what social arrangements are common or not that's irrelevant, we decide what our social conventions are.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Show me any statistics showing monogamy improved a society, reduced violence, increased happiness, reduced child abuse, etc. I'll give you a hint, you won't find them because they don't exist. And again trotting out any stats to do with Mormon or Muslim polygynists is a waste of time, you're basically showing stats for slavery and I'm pretty sure we're already aware slavery doesn't work. In societies with equality and non-monogamy there is less conflict, more stable families and less abuse.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
"you won't find them because they don't exist. " That's a one-sided argument. Statistics showing that polyamory improved society, etc., don't exist either. There's no solid statistical support for either position, and of course no controlled experiments have been conducted and reported. We're in the realm of speculation here. Polyamory might help create a better society, but we don't know.
73elephants 2 years ago
The point is there is conclusive proof that monogamy, polygyny and polyandry don't work because they are all contrary to human nature. There are statistics showing that the more sexually open a culture is the healthier it is, that can be extrapolated. Also you can go into any polyamorous subculture and poll the rates of violence and abuse and the the level of stability, and even without looking simple common sense will tell you it's lower.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
These are interesting claims. Do you have any references? I'd quite like to investigate further.
73elephants 2 years ago
Look at the stats for places like Amsterdam and other places in Europe that are more sexually open (in some cases even sex in public is legal) and in every case their rates of violent crime, crime against women, divorce, etc. go way down. It's simple common sense, you deny or suppress human nature you're going to get misery and if you do it long enough people will explode in one way or another. For polyamorous people, meet them in any city and see if any know of any violence by their members.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Lots of hypotheses are "simple common sense", but still turn out to be wrong. Looking at the UK, I see that it was pretty monogamous in the 1950s, and has tended increasingly to the polyamorous since, and at the same time crime - of the most brutal and depraved sort - seems to have increased in tandem with this. Could I infer a causal link? Some do, and even think it obvious to common sense. I'd like to see more solid evidence either way.
73elephants 2 years ago
As I said, poll the polyamory communities anywhere and see if you can find one case of spousal or child abuse in a poly household. I've yet to find a single case and I've talked to polys in dozens of cities, they are small communities, had there been any instances everyone would have heard of it. Also I see no evidence that the UK has abandoned its endorsement of monogamy.
Regardless, all of this is beyond the scope of this video, the point of this video is simply that monogamy isn't natural.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Hard to abuse your wife and kids in front of your other wives and all their husbands. Abuse happens in secret and when one person is in an unbalanced position of power. Also for stability in a monogamous or harem situation when the head of the household or leaves the family structure is destroyed, in a polygamous one with multiple husbands and wives the loss of any one parent doesn't disrupt the family structure.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
Interesting, it's not true that 'monogamous species' ignore others when they've found their mate. There's a high rate of 'cheating' among these species and many of the fathers are not raising their own kids... monogamy with a bit of cheating going on is a pretty optimum strategy for people since our kids are so frail for so long. I'd agree it's mostly a cultural thing. Being an atheist doesn't mean you disregard cultural influences.
alexkidd3d 2 years ago
No that is species that were thought to be monogamous but were later discovered to be non-monogamous through DNA testing. 3% of species are actually monogamous.
My point was many atheists believe themselves above indoctrination and irrationality. I am simply showing that not to be the case, monogamy is more of a religion than religion is and everybody buys into it.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
I've done blog entries on how monogamy is unnatural so I couldn't agree more.
Good video but was very quiet. Had to strain to hear. But was worth the listen.
CultOfDusty 2 years ago
I don't know what happened with the audio, used the same setup as my problem with religion video and this one just came out quiet for no reason. I've tried finding a program to adjust the volume in it but they either won't load the mp4 or flv files or don't have an option to increase the volume.
FlyingFree333 2 years ago
As a transsexual - I can tell you, I automatically can sort out the rational from the irrational!
Polygamy is fine, we are pansexuals via evolution, also hermaphroditic (sponges), there is alot of things that humans are unwilling to face about themselves.
MilitantPeaceist 2 years ago