Wow, what a delusional comment. First what 'experts'? Name them all. Every one with any academic background that has examined them has stated blankly that there are forgeries here. Check the links I've given in the comments under the video.
Second, it isn't a matter of simply telling people that the images and script are taken from modern items, it is proven. The chariot image is a direct copy from a modern fake from Turkey, for example. That is a fact. You have to be delusional to not
@tomverenna I see no identical bullseye with the chariot, they may have a similar image but they are no match. The tree is also not a match to what you tried to show. The picture of Alexander could also be anyone. Maybe if you could prove the corrosion is not natural, (tests show 1800-2000 years) then your stories would hold more water Tom.
You might as well call the dead sea scrolls fake while your at it.
Alexander is the same also; use the image slider on the page and see for yourself.
As for the dating, I'm not sure what tests you are using. If you look here, you will see that the tests given by Northover at Oxford were purposefully manipulated (see here:
@tomverenna not only is the lead very old but the corrosion over the depictions is ancient. Sounds more like you have a personal problem with Elkington. I have studied the dead sea scrolls in my courses and can read Hebrew and some Latin. The tablets are authentic to many and that will never change no matter what you do so theres no point getting defensive. Its been intresting talking to you and seeing your views enjoy your opinions, and happy new year! ;)
@bosco11x The corrosion is not ancient; where are you getting this information from? You clearly are just lying now, since it is proven that the reports from Northover state otherwise. From the actual (not the altered) reports:
"In the present writer’s view this is not characteristic of lead that has been buried where it would be expected that the surface crust would be thicker and that there would be greater penetration of the metal leaving, at least, a pitted surface."
@bosco11x Northover, who did the Oxford analysis, shows clearly that the corrosion is not ancient. Read the unaltered analysis at Dan McClellan's blog. Stating repeatedly that 'the tablets are authentic' does not make it true; the Oxford metallurgical report disagrees with you.
@bosco11x You have avoided dealing with the issues we've presented and instead simply restated exactly what is shown to be false. The only reason this is the case is (a) you are Elkington, (b) you were lied to by someone you trust, (c) you are delusional, or (d) you're a liar. I'm sorry I mistook you for a rational person.
@tomverenna your the douche who cares too much about having your opinion taken seriously that you have to attack and insult anyone who thretens your false beliefs. Talk all you want because know one really cares about you or your jealous crazy opinions tom. Happy New Year!!! ;)
@bosco11x The fact is the lead may be old, but this doesn't mean anything. Any scholar familiar with fakes will tell you that ancient lead is easy to come by and is often melted down by modern forgers who reproduce fake coins by the troves. The corrosion, per the ACTUAL report done by Northover, shows that it is recent (within perhaps the last hundred years). These are not ancient artifacts. You've been lied to.
Check the images again. They are identical. Pay close attention to the wheel of the chariot. Notice even the spokes of the chariot line up (one is crooked on the codex and identically crooked on the trinket, the only explanation is that the codex icon was caste from the same die as the trinket). (con't below)
Those coins are fakes, too. There are no tests that show a provenance from 1800-2000 years ago. Dr. Northover's report has been demonstrably altered by Elkington, and he has stated directly to me and to others that his analysis does not rule out a modern provenance. No others have been produced.
Your lies hold no fact. You could point out that the text are similar to things found in today's society but saying that they are in fact fake is a lie. Experts are still examining these and have not stated any of the what you call facts in your video. I know this is scary to sheeple like you but you need to except thing for what they are and these still remain a mystery. God bless!
David Elkington is unfortunately my father. He is a fraud - He's not qualified at anything and has 3 GCSE's. He has taken hard earned money from many elderly and vulnerable people over the years through many scams including one on his own mother (my Gran). I believe this to also be one. Please search 'David Elkington Unsettled Christianity' - his own sister (my aunt), my gran and sever other people say the same. It may also be useful to look at the 'Jordan Codices are fake' facebook page.
the fact of today is we has a people are in fact in the center of all things we have seen an are to see all things to come we can think of yesterday or we can think of the pass in history but if we dont think of us to day we will be lost.
There are also certain reasons why religious networks want to attack all this codices as fakes becaus of a few. And this could be because they don't like what is found on the real ones. And I still insist on the fact that something what happened ~1950 years ago is not Science Fiction.
@derZeitzeuge That might be the worst position you can hold. No one is attacking the authenticity of these codices because of religious reasons and there are no "religious networks" involved--only students and scholars. The "religious network" hype is a ruse to take attention away from the facts. The facts speak for themselves, and they are quite clear: the codices we have all seen are fakes. You can choose to ignore the evidence but don't project your conspiracy theories onto others.
@derZeitzeuge tomcerenna is right. and if anything, certain groups would love something like this to be real (like the Mormons). I for one am disappointed that they were fakes. but the facts are the facts. our personal feelings have nothing to do with whether a discovery is authentic.
@ tomverenna I cite Herschel's website because he cites this article from "The Jordan Times": “We really believe that we have evidence from this analysis to prove that these materials are authentic,” DoA Director Ziad Saad told The Jordan Times. The tests, carried out at the Royal Scientific Society labs, indicate that the texts may date back to the early first century AD, at a time when Christians took refuge from persecution on the east bank of the Jordan River."
@derZeitzeuge Oh, but it is science fiction. There are many reasons (political or other) why certain people from the DoA would make these claims. The IAA has already examined these codices and resigned them as fakes. Several top notch scholars who work in numismatics have exposed these as well. There is direct evidence that those involved have already falsified one report. Jumping on the conclusions of this news report proves nothing. Until you see the report, its all sensationalism.
The Jordan university has made a release through The Jordan Times newspaper that the lead books that were scientifically tested are trully ancient and appear to be real artifacts. According to the Department of Antiquities (DoA), first stage of aging tests to determine the authenticity of lead-sealed metal books billed as the greatest find in biblical archaeology since the Dead Sea scrolls have been “encouraging”."
@derZeitzeuge Have you seen this report? I haven't. And I doubt Wayne Herschel has either. I suspect that once the reports are made public, we'll find that they have also been manipulated, or that the evidence doesn't agree with what Herschel is reporting. Again, why are you citing Herschel's website? His entire premise is science fiction and has absolutely nothing to do with fact.
@derZeitzeuge Haven't you seen all of the real evidence. The tests have been altered and changed! They were re written as they didn't support these codices been 1800 to 2000 years old. Watch the video, its all been blown out of the water.
@tomverenna as I said earlier I don't think that they are copys from the iconography off the coins Alexander's depiction probably IS a copy from the coin - but IMHO that is not evidence that the plate is fake. The guy 1950 years ago could have taken the coin as foundation. Or am I wrong with this?
@derZeitzeuge Don't ignore the evidence. When you compare the fact that the same dies were used on both the lead and copper codices, and that the iconography comes from coins and trinkets dating from all sorts of different periods (including modern tourist trinkets--if you continue to dispute this, prove it and show it. Claims are worthless things). And the metallurgical report does not support the case that these were buried. It is absurd to claim that these are 1,950 years old.
"David Elkington has said the copper books need to be watched acrefully, some might be reproduced by the Bedouin truck driver who had his hands on originals and some might be completely fabricated. The Bedouine truck driver in the media coverage from the Daily Mail was involved with holding some of the artifacts. David suggested media be weary of all the copper books and rather focus on the lead books."
@derZeitzeuge I'm not sure what your point is? The lead codices use the same dies that can be found on the copper ones. And the iconography on the lead, as well as the script, is just as dubious. Did you actually watch the video? I'm not sure why you are trusting Wayne Herschel's site on this; do you find his arguments credible?
I am neither an archaeologist nor an egyptologist, but...
- the two faces (plate/coin) look very different.
- the two chariots resemble each other but that can be coincidence IMHO
- the palm tree looks very different compared to the ones on the coins.
- stars mostly resemble each other - I wouldn't call them fakes for that.
- the depictions of Alexander are indeed very similar but couldn't it be that the guy who (~1950 years ago) hammered it into the plate took that coin as a guideline?
@derZeitzeuge They are different because they are copies from the iconography off of coins; the dies were created using the coins as a foundation, but if you note the motifs found on the coins vs the iconography on the codices, it's very difficult to argue against it. Especially once you realize the iconography doesn't appear on anything else, anywhere, except coins.
@derZeitzeuge For example, the helmet from the Herod the Great prutah only appears, so far as can be shown in available evidence, on the coin. It holds no context outside of that. Also the chariots are an exact match; it is not coincidence when the only place the identical match appears is from a tourist trinket. There are similar images, but they are also found on coins and they aren't nearly as identical (like on Tetradrachm...)
Palleobabble's always getting me the hot press on fake claims. There should be a website dedicated to exposing fraudulent claims, oh yeah Palleobabble. Kewl.
ive hered some people say 800-1000-2000 years old where do they get thnis extra 1000 years from
gingernutpreacher 6 days ago
Disappointing to say the least
TheOptimusprime9 1 month ago
Wow, what a delusional comment. First what 'experts'? Name them all. Every one with any academic background that has examined them has stated blankly that there are forgeries here. Check the links I've given in the comments under the video.
Second, it isn't a matter of simply telling people that the images and script are taken from modern items, it is proven. The chariot image is a direct copy from a modern fake from Turkey, for example. That is a fact. You have to be delusional to not
tomverenna 1 month ago
@tomverenna I see no identical bullseye with the chariot, they may have a similar image but they are no match. The tree is also not a match to what you tried to show. The picture of Alexander could also be anyone. Maybe if you could prove the corrosion is not natural, (tests show 1800-2000 years) then your stories would hold more water Tom.
You might as well call the dead sea scrolls fake while your at it.
bosco11x 1 month ago
@bosco11x
Alexander is the same also; use the image slider on the page and see for yourself.
As for the dating, I'm not sure what tests you are using. If you look here, you will see that the tests given by Northover at Oxford were purposefully manipulated (see here:
aramaicdesigns[.]blogspot[.]com[/2011/09/]jordan-codices-more-about-altered[.]html
I am sorry you have been lied to by people who support Elkington.
tomverenna 1 month ago
@tomverenna not only is the lead very old but the corrosion over the depictions is ancient. Sounds more like you have a personal problem with Elkington. I have studied the dead sea scrolls in my courses and can read Hebrew and some Latin. The tablets are authentic to many and that will never change no matter what you do so theres no point getting defensive. Its been intresting talking to you and seeing your views enjoy your opinions, and happy new year! ;)
bosco11x 1 month ago
@bosco11x The corrosion is not ancient; where are you getting this information from? You clearly are just lying now, since it is proven that the reports from Northover state otherwise. From the actual (not the altered) reports:
"In the present writer’s view this is not characteristic of lead that has been buried where it would be expected that the surface crust would be thicker and that there would be greater penetration of the metal leaving, at least, a pitted surface."
(more...)
tomverenna 1 month ago
@bosco11x Northover, who did the Oxford analysis, shows clearly that the corrosion is not ancient. Read the unaltered analysis at Dan McClellan's blog. Stating repeatedly that 'the tablets are authentic' does not make it true; the Oxford metallurgical report disagrees with you.
tomverenna 1 month ago
@bosco11x You have avoided dealing with the issues we've presented and instead simply restated exactly what is shown to be false. The only reason this is the case is (a) you are Elkington, (b) you were lied to by someone you trust, (c) you are delusional, or (d) you're a liar. I'm sorry I mistook you for a rational person.
tomverenna 1 month ago
@tomverenna your the douche who cares too much about having your opinion taken seriously that you have to attack and insult anyone who thretens your false beliefs. Talk all you want because know one really cares about you or your jealous crazy opinions tom. Happy New Year!!! ;)
bosco11x 1 month ago
@bosco11x The fact is the lead may be old, but this doesn't mean anything. Any scholar familiar with fakes will tell you that ancient lead is easy to come by and is often melted down by modern forgers who reproduce fake coins by the troves. The corrosion, per the ACTUAL report done by Northover, shows that it is recent (within perhaps the last hundred years). These are not ancient artifacts. You've been lied to.
tomverenna 1 month ago
@bosco11x They are an exact match, actually. Again, go to this site:
bibliobloglibrary[.]com[/]jordan-lead-codices[/]visualizing-the-problems[.]php
(remove the [])
Check the images again. They are identical. Pay close attention to the wheel of the chariot. Notice even the spokes of the chariot line up (one is crooked on the codex and identically crooked on the trinket, the only explanation is that the codex icon was caste from the same die as the trinket). (con't below)
tomverenna 1 month ago
@bosco11x Finally, the trees are taken from coins dating to Ambivulus, see here:
tomverenna.wordpress[.]com/2011/09/17/jordan-lead-codices-palm-tree/
And your weak comparison to the dead sea scrolls shows how little you know about them and these codices.
tomverenna 1 month ago
@bosco11x See my discussion here for the chariot and Alexander coins that are absolutely identical matches:
danielomcclellan[.]wordpress[.]com/2011/08/30/steve-caruso-beats-me-to-the-punch-and-more/
Those coins are fakes, too. There are no tests that show a provenance from 1800-2000 years ago. Dr. Northover's report has been demonstrably altered by Elkington, and he has stated directly to me and to others that his analysis does not rule out a modern provenance. No others have been produced.
maklelan 1 month ago
Your lies hold no fact. You could point out that the text are similar to things found in today's society but saying that they are in fact fake is a lie. Experts are still examining these and have not stated any of the what you call facts in your video. I know this is scary to sheeple like you but you need to except thing for what they are and these still remain a mystery. God bless!
bosco11x 1 month ago
This video is pathetic, leave the facts to the experts.
bosco11x 1 month ago
@bosco11x So facts are only defined by those who you deem experts? Funny, I though facts stood for themselves.
tomverenna 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
David Elkington is unfortunately my father. He is a fraud - He's not qualified at anything and has 3 GCSE's. He has taken hard earned money from many elderly and vulnerable people over the years through many scams including one on his own mother (my Gran). I believe this to also be one. Please search 'David Elkington Unsettled Christianity' - his own sister (my aunt), my gran and sever other people say the same. It may also be useful to look at the 'Jordan Codices are fake' facebook page.
edlawrence94 2 months ago
the fact of today is we has a people are in fact in the center of all things we have seen an are to see all things to come we can think of yesterday or we can think of the pass in history but if we dont think of us to day we will be lost.
MrTerryraykurtz 2 months ago
Comment removed
edlawrence94 5 months ago
There are also certain reasons why religious networks want to attack all this codices as fakes becaus of a few. And this could be because they don't like what is found on the real ones. And I still insist on the fact that something what happened ~1950 years ago is not Science Fiction.
derZeitzeuge 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge That might be the worst position you can hold. No one is attacking the authenticity of these codices because of religious reasons and there are no "religious networks" involved--only students and scholars. The "religious network" hype is a ruse to take attention away from the facts. The facts speak for themselves, and they are quite clear: the codices we have all seen are fakes. You can choose to ignore the evidence but don't project your conspiracy theories onto others.
tomverenna 5 months ago 9
Comment removed
AramaicDesigns 5 months ago
I remember hearing about this exciting discovery 8 months ago. I hadn't followed up on it since. pity, it does sound like they're fakes.
XSC3 2 months ago
@derZeitzeuge tomcerenna is right. and if anything, certain groups would love something like this to be real (like the Mormons). I for one am disappointed that they were fakes. but the facts are the facts. our personal feelings have nothing to do with whether a discovery is authentic.
XSC3 2 months ago
@ tomverenna I cite Herschel's website because he cites this article from "The Jordan Times": “We really believe that we have evidence from this analysis to prove that these materials are authentic,” DoA Director Ziad Saad told The Jordan Times. The tests, carried out at the Royal Scientific Society labs, indicate that the texts may date back to the early first century AD, at a time when Christians took refuge from persecution on the east bank of the Jordan River."
This is not ScienceFiction.
derZeitzeuge 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge Oh, but it is science fiction. There are many reasons (political or other) why certain people from the DoA would make these claims. The IAA has already examined these codices and resigned them as fakes. Several top notch scholars who work in numismatics have exposed these as well. There is direct evidence that those involved have already falsified one report. Jumping on the conclusions of this news report proves nothing. Until you see the report, its all sensationalism.
tomverenna 5 months ago 3
Again on Wayne Herschel's site:
"UPDATE JUNE 15TH 2011 - TEST RESULTS ARE IN
The Jordan university has made a release through The Jordan Times newspaper that the lead books that were scientifically tested are trully ancient and appear to be real artifacts. According to the Department of Antiquities (DoA), first stage of aging tests to determine the authenticity of lead-sealed metal books billed as the greatest find in biblical archaeology since the Dead Sea scrolls have been “encouraging”."
derZeitzeuge 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge Have you seen this report? I haven't. And I doubt Wayne Herschel has either. I suspect that once the reports are made public, we'll find that they have also been manipulated, or that the evidence doesn't agree with what Herschel is reporting. Again, why are you citing Herschel's website? His entire premise is science fiction and has absolutely nothing to do with fact.
tomverenna 5 months ago 3
@derZeitzeuge Haven't you seen all of the real evidence. The tests have been altered and changed! They were re written as they didn't support these codices been 1800 to 2000 years old. Watch the video, its all been blown out of the water.
edlawrence94 5 months ago
@tomverenna as I said earlier I don't think that they are copys from the iconography off the coins Alexander's depiction probably IS a copy from the coin - but IMHO that is not evidence that the plate is fake. The guy 1950 years ago could have taken the coin as foundation. Or am I wrong with this?
derZeitzeuge 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge Don't ignore the evidence. When you compare the fact that the same dies were used on both the lead and copper codices, and that the iconography comes from coins and trinkets dating from all sorts of different periods (including modern tourist trinkets--if you continue to dispute this, prove it and show it. Claims are worthless things). And the metallurgical report does not support the case that these were buried. It is absurd to claim that these are 1,950 years old.
tomverenna 5 months ago 2
On Wayne Herschel's site I found this:
"David Elkington has said the copper books need to be watched acrefully, some might be reproduced by the Bedouin truck driver who had his hands on originals and some might be completely fabricated. The Bedouine truck driver in the media coverage from the Daily Mail was involved with holding some of the artifacts. David suggested media be weary of all the copper books and rather focus on the lead books."
derZeitzeuge 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge I'm not sure what your point is? The lead codices use the same dies that can be found on the copper ones. And the iconography on the lead, as well as the script, is just as dubious. Did you actually watch the video? I'm not sure why you are trusting Wayne Herschel's site on this; do you find his arguments credible?
tomverenna 5 months ago
I am neither an archaeologist nor an egyptologist, but...
- the two faces (plate/coin) look very different.
- the two chariots resemble each other but that can be coincidence IMHO
- the palm tree looks very different compared to the ones on the coins.
- stars mostly resemble each other - I wouldn't call them fakes for that.
- the depictions of Alexander are indeed very similar but couldn't it be that the guy who (~1950 years ago) hammered it into the plate took that coin as a guideline?
derZeitzeuge 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge They are different because they are copies from the iconography off of coins; the dies were created using the coins as a foundation, but if you note the motifs found on the coins vs the iconography on the codices, it's very difficult to argue against it. Especially once you realize the iconography doesn't appear on anything else, anywhere, except coins.
tomverenna 5 months ago
@derZeitzeuge For example, the helmet from the Herod the Great prutah only appears, so far as can be shown in available evidence, on the coin. It holds no context outside of that. Also the chariots are an exact match; it is not coincidence when the only place the identical match appears is from a tourist trinket. There are similar images, but they are also found on coins and they aren't nearly as identical (like on Tetradrachm...)
tomverenna 5 months ago 2
@derZeitzeuge ..., but one must wonder why such iconography would appear on something which is purported to be dated to the first century CE.
tomverenna 5 months ago 3
Not surprising that Fox News picked up on this. False in, False out.
razorcade 5 months ago 4
Palleobabble's always getting me the hot press on fake claims. There should be a website dedicated to exposing fraudulent claims, oh yeah Palleobabble. Kewl.
aerycksmusic 5 months ago 2
Everybody please be sure to 'like' the 'The Jordan Lead Codices are fake' facebook page for further updates on this matter
edlawrence94 5 months ago in playlist edlawrence94's Favorited Videos 7
Well Done, Sums everything up.
edlawrence94 5 months ago in playlist edlawrence94's Favorited Videos 9