SinkScience #11 - Mysterious Reversing Ball Magnet

[HEADPLATZER]

put your finger in it :D

[willian32976]

2:55) that is weird!!! even

[willian32976]

1:35) LMFOA!!!! jack hannah meets science!!!

[rwg42985]

Yes! Some good data here my friend! Thanks for sharing! Will be looking at some of your other videos! Good stuff good stuff! Thanks, ~Russ

[zlac]

I would say that it is an effect similar or even analogous to aliasing effect in all sampling things. You get negative frequency when stuff that you are sampling is faster than sample rate.

(wheels on cars or helicopter blades look like they're turning in the wrong direction on TV because of the sample rate -> frame rate).

What Nikola Tesla says about Eddy currents is analogous to aliasing effect (also lookup wikipedia for Lenz's law to learn what eddy currents do and why)

[zlac]

@zlac Basically, Nikola Tesla explained it and you can't explain it further. If you don't understand what is the meaning of his explanation, all you can to do is learn enough about magnetism and electromagnetism and you will understand; Lenz's law is your friend.

[junior1984able]

what and who is the name of the song intro you played

[MrfixitRick]

@junior1984able

The intro is the band Wolf Parade with "This Heart's On Fire". My stepson plays in the band.

[junior1984able]

@junior1984able thanks, good song

[derman077]

Arrow Looks like the moon orbit, I wonder if that's why gravity doesn't fit the model. You better be wearing a full face mask with that ball whizzing around through space like that. Very cool experiment. Great quote too. Thanks

[HiDeguild]

I didn't know Steven Wright was making youtube videos...

[Choowbz]

I got the notion after seeing your Styrofoam ball with the arrow painted on it but to have it float in a bowl of water is interesting.

I have watched most of your videos and it proves that science and discovery is not just confined to high financed labs. (Though a bit of finance is always a nice thing)

Good Stuff.

[Choowbz]

A metal ball inserted into a ping pong ball may give a surprising effect as the rotation within a rotation could cause it to jump or lift with speed.

[MrfixitRick]

I did try a magnet inside a styrofoam ball, and got some interesting pulsing results when placing it in water above the turbine. The ball was able to jog through the water backwards to the rotation of the turbine.

[alecj86]

did you tape it?

[MrfixitRick]

I did tape it, but it is not edited into a movie yet. It looks similar to the backwards rotation of above, but with a bow wave!

[bougaloup7]

Your awsome man !

[bougaloup7]

hey dude why don',t you sprickle some metal dust dhaw!when your turbine run at peak effiency to see the magnitic buble a scat scan might reveal it shape

[MrfixitRick]

Good idea, I'll try that.

[highguard01]

please do this with ferrofluid.

[Master3Sap]

The magnetic pull is less when it's further from the turbine or whatever it is, we all know that. So, i'm assuming that since there is less magnetic force between the ball and the balls in the turbine, when the ball is further, the turbine would be spinning so fast (at the same speed) for the balls in the turbine's magnetic force to pull the ball. So what basically happens... Is that the ball gets pulled back by the ball behind the ball it's getting sucked to and goes on and on.

[Master3Sap]

I know my explanation is bad. >.>

[pngrick]

use a cone

[pngrick]

you are going to shot your eye out, u know

[Agentoxedo07]

Holy-Terrorist:>*=* HAAHHAAHHAHAAA

_=_ sepelache hahihohohuhuhehehaa

[supersmalls]

ball casually flies out knocking camera man out...almost

[METALHANGOVER]

How is this an odd effect?

[MrfixitRick]

I expected the magnetic ball to be pulled in the direction of the magnets of the turbine. I thought it was odd when it did do that, not but in fact prefers to move in the reverse direction of the turbine.

Does that seem normal from your perspective? Do you have other examples?

[METALHANGOVER]

I loosely assume the magnets approaching the ball from the 'rear' are having more pull than the magnet once passed the ball. Due to magnet positioning/motion, there is a net surplus of 'reverse' pull.

Or something.

[MrfixitRick]

Hehe, yes, but it's all in the explaining of the details of the "or something"!

There are many forces at work here, with mass, inertia, centrifugal force, friction, magnetic induction and hysteresis, magnetic attractive and especially repelling forces, gravity, and even magnetic poles of the Earth, combined with lag and phase factor.

I may have omitted some forces. The point is that they add up to a cool reversing effect that is similar to what Tesla noted with his first AC motors.

[METALHANGOVER]

yeah it is pretty cool

[zapnic]

/watch?v=BqIyoqlgnkc

something similar?

or

/watch?v=x-aHeHkQumQ

[MrfixitRick]

Yes that is similar. His field is done by electromagnetism with a coil of wire, whereas mine is by magnetism with magnets. He mentions strange effects when the frequency is changed, such as the ball starting to go backwards.

[therassil]

Can someone tell me how can this be revolutionary? or break any science law or be of any use for people? as far as ive read about Tesla hes done sth with the car and it was driving without fuel - was it with using magnets?

Ok so we have air or water pressure spinning CDs and what? we can also add magnets, ok, and what? can we go further and make an engine that wouldnt need fuel? or anything extraordinary with it?

[MrfixitRick]

Nikola Tesla said in his autobiography that his Tesla Turbine was the greatest of all his inventions. He believed it would "scrap all of the heat engines of the world". The Tesla Turbine can run on any fuel with very few emissions. It is the simplest design.

My idea to add supermagnets to the Tesla Turbine simplifies the design even more. There is no need for a driveshaft, bearings or seals.

A CD Turbine is a simply a fun and cheap way to let folks know about the amazing Tesla Turbine.

[noiseundermybed]

how many rpm can this turbine go on water???

[MrfixitRick]

Up to 1500 rpm has been recorded by me, but it normally runs at 500 rpm or so on 20-30 psi faucet water pressure.

[mycatwilatackyou]

use one of those stainless steel pot lids with the lip to keep your ball inside , my friend used to do a lot of ball and magnet experiments . I always liked how loud it was with a big ball bearing in a steel bowl

[MrfixitRick]

I wonder what would happen with a Tibetian "Singing Bowl" that resonates when drawing a finger around the lip of the bowl...

[vertigon1980]

Do ball revs are the same of the tesla turbine? I would think that those are way faster, if so, then you can place a dinamo attached to that ball and get generate more energy that was inputted to the turbine

[MrfixitRick]

I've considered it. There might be a way to make that work, but if it did, it would be a world's first!

[vertigon1980]

Actually it would duplicate or so the energy, it is just taking it away from all that kynetic energy that it's been wasting

[chrisbis36]

......and height, more importantly.

If u go even higher, does the rotation change yet again as would be the case with a vortex?

chris

[chrisbis36]

Must be a vortex wave function going on in the field shape above the turbine.

[MrfixitRick]

I believe so. The rotating magnetic field strength and shape changes with rpm.

[jupy921]

That's a pretty interesting experiment and Magnets do such strange things, unexpected might be a better word. Very Cool Stuff!

[onthecuttingedge2005]

you'll bust your teeth out!

be careful friend, lol.

[Rubberjohnnyface]

however it cant escape the field of the stator. The ball can go upward in another plane (z) so that the field slips by with no or minimal interaction. Gravity pulls the ball back down, and the timing of the event and strength of the approaching fields which have lapped the ball while it was airborne, appear to have moved backwards, once the ball engages the field, its rolling or rotation may keep it being attracted to the next field behind and due to its small mass can run "backwards" ? :)

[MrfixitRick]

Thanks for one of the better attempts to explain this phenomenon.

I tend toward thinking that Science is still 90% magic, and 10% stuff we're not sure of!

[Everfalling]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic :)

[Rubberjohnnyface]

Think of how slip in an induction motor works, imagine we reduce the starting current so the rotor has no torque and sits still, as the field whirls around it, that is slip. When the field strength is increased, the rotor has enough induced current to become magnetically active and is pulled round by the rotating field. Some slip between field speed and rotor speed is necessary and expected, as this is what produces the torque of the motor. If the field slips ahead the rotor is pulled harder

[Rubberjohnnyface]

I have a theory for the reversal of rotation, its like a stroboscopic effect, the field - as it speeds up, begins to exceed the ability of the ball's mass to keep up, slip occurs, then as the ball "sees" the attraction point, that point appears to have moved backwards relative to the ball, so it is attracted to the field behind the one that escaped under it, giving a reverse rotation. Like when strobe lights shine on a spining object and its speed varied, it appears to run backwards sometimes.

[MrfixitRick]

Good observation and I agree that the reversing ball magnet it is a magnetic field effect similar to the way you describe it.

For me, it's the magnetic slip idea that's hard to get a good handle on.

[belliebum12]

I noticed you had some trouble there keeping the bowl still. Ever think of building a support rig to keep it in place? Then you could be less preoccupied with stabilizing it and you could also safely test the different heights and get that "sweet spot" again. Just a suggestion.

[MrfixitRick]

Thanks for the suggestion, and if I get back into this experiment, I will try to be more scientific on that!

[dan020350]

the age of Aquarius is coming

[masterman321]

dude the arrow was pointing at the center of the circle

[MrfixitRick]

If the Earth was at the centre of the circle, then the magnetic ball would represent the moon, which always has it's same side facing us.

[epezoodious]

That is just like the effect of the earth has on the moon

[MrfixitRick]

That is exactly the revelation I had when observing this phenomena!

[bodkin77]

Why a water turbine? Does your landlord pay for the water?! I hope your wearing eye and teeth protection for the 2nd half of the vid!

[MrfixitRick]

A water turbine is safer, easier, quieter, and cheaper to run than compressed air. I pay for the water, it's from a well and costs 5 cents an hour to run. So my ten-minute experiment costs about 1 cent to perform. Not bad, but my newest system is re-circulating and solar-powered, using no outside energy source, including the well!

It's always a good idea to run safety gear when playing with a turbine made from CD's and magnets...but this water-powered version is about as safe as it gets !

[ssjadam]

why does everyone talk about the water cost? can none of you afford water lol

[ngobmx]

are all the magnets the same rating? cuz it looks like one magnet is pulling the ball around and then one on a oposite side trys to pull it back or across, could that explain it?

[ngobmx]

i mean in the part wea u have it going against the direction of the turbine and it jumps back a bit

[MrfixitRick]

Yeah, I've heard many theories about that one...

[MrfixitRick]

All the 6 magnets on the top disc of the turbine are the same 1/2 x 1/2 inch N52 neodymium magnets.

[ngobmx]

well thea goes my explination haha

but ill hit up the physics teacher at school about it wen i go back

[MrfixitRick]

Please do...show the vid...If he can't immediately come up with an explanation, tell him Nikola Tesla noticed a similar effect in his first A/C motors where if he increased the frequency of the power to the motor, it would slow down, stop, and then run in reverse. That was well over 100 years ago. Ask if it could be the same effect and impress your physics teacher!! hehe

[ngobmx]

haha yea he will think ive been brushing up on my physics lol

cheers man all the best!

[MrfixitRick]

Don't let him read the comments or you will get caught cheating! hahaha

Cheers to you too.

[nasanction]

While watching your video, I noticed that the way the ball rotated at 2:50 is exactly the way the moon orbits earth. I would go for a stretch and say, this could be why we always see the same side of the moon. Anyone ever take a compass to the moon? lol...

[MrfixitRick]

I felt the same way when watching this; that this phenomenon was universal. The compass on the moon idea is a mind-bender!

[durman3006]

ty ses debil :-))

[Nabo00o]

Hey, I think that is the neutral zone that Gary was talking about, where the field first stops and the reverse.

He made patents for pure magnetic machines that exploited the shielding of magnetic fields in order to pull and then let go.

[bankeh]

Dude you could make a pretty bad ass solar system model with a bigger rotating magnetic feild

[MrfixitRick]

Yeah...if I had one as big as the sun, now that would be cool...hmmm

[vartio]

hello mister MrfixitRick just go google patents and read patent

us 406,968

bye

[MrfixitRick]

Thanks, vartio, a good reminder of the principles of the Homopolar Generator made by the master, Nikola Tesla.

A conducting rotating magnetic disc can create a current (i.e. homopolar generator) Or, a current applied to a conducting magnetic disc will cause it to rotate. (i.e. homopolar motor)

I have constructed many homopolar motor creations. The videos can be found in my Youtube channel.

[vartio]

hello you got new videos and great stuff

i was thinking simple copper disc like cd

like homopolar dynamo but magnets are moving nnnhhmm like a upsidedown thinking ?

or steel disc he he remanence stuff and some wierd effect's?

bye

[MrfixitRick]

Thanks for comment.

The steel disc won't work too well because it gets too attracted to the magnets.

But I like your idea of the copper disc...perhaps I could get power out of it by running wires from the center and edge of a stationary copper disc above the magnetic field of the turbine.

Good experiment, but I will have to build a new turbine, as I just blew up my favourite SinkScience turbine!

[vartio]

mmmh maybe same reverse effect will happen with copper disc ??

[MrfixitRick]

I tried an aluminum pie plate, but it only seemed to spin in one direction. (see "Will It Spin??" video) Copper is likely the same, but would be a good experiment.

I did get a 6-magnet magnetic coupler to go slowly backwards as well. It took an hour to find the "sweet spot".

I'd like to build a ball bearing structure with magnetic balls for the bearings and see if it would rotate backwards!

[vartio]

yes but i was meaning about Copper plate magnetfield

Copper plate will not move at all

[MrfixitRick]

Ok, I see. Perhaps the current in the plate will reverse at a certain rpm?

I shall have to do an experiment with this one day!

(or perhaps you will before me?? hehe)

[Bogsnarfticator]

Ah man, very entertaining and interesting, love the 'watch the teeth' at the end lol

[Arrow69hunter]

I, like most that flock to mag vids believe that alot of answers are right under our collective noses.I feel that Tesla was shut down because the ptb saw coal and oil as a way to enslave the masses{monetarily}.Tesla was the man ac,vs dc time proved Tesla was right.Why are we still using fossil fuels??? Because big old money will not allow any alternatives till they can controll them! Been to a gas pump lately! bags abound, but you can find premium gas at much higher $

[MrfixitRick]

That seems like the basic story in one way or another. We must continue to watch, discover, and communicate to bring on a new age of Tesla based technology.

The answers are sometimes literally right under our noses...Tesla Turbines apparently prove best for reducing particulate emissions and still being able to burn multiple fuels, up to 100% biomass, for example.

[Arrow69hunter]

I believe that with in Teslas studies, and the great leaps we have made with lithium batts and super conducters/magnets. Solar and wind energy CAN give us a form of perpetual{sp} energy when all these elements are refined and exploited. THE BIG ? is will it be allowed by the powers that be and control today!! Particulate by products are what is killing us right now.Tesla had vision and purpose.He was mocked and laughed at.However he will Laugh last. God speed!

[MrfixitRick]

Absolutely right!

Particulates are a "particularly" bad problem which I am intimately aware of. I wear a respirator to make it into town, or even drive on rural roads because of diesel exhaust.

Tesla recognized this 100 years ago, and would be totally ashamed at what we have done by covering the planet, and ourselves, and our kids, with soot.

[maximumgravity]

so does the experiment with the arrow on the ball indicate what is happening with the "dark side" of the moon? By the way, is that just a standard ball, or is it a magnet also?

[MrfixitRick]

I get the impression, sometimes, that the micro magnetic universe I play with, is a microcosm of the moon and planetary movements.

As seen in the video, at a certain rpm, the ball(it's a magnetic sphere inside the styro ball, by the way) gets dragged around by the magnetic field of the turbine, and rotates only once per revolution, such that it always faces the center.

This action does seem like the Moon-Earth relationship, where we always see the same side of the Moon.

[youtuubbguy66]

It look like if you let it go (at 5:08) it would lift off by itself until it get out of reach.

[MrfixitRick]

The ball took off a couple of times if I let the cup get too loose, because the angle of the sides of the cup become less than 90 degrees, and the ball climbs up...and out! (it usually heads for the kitchen window and tries to escape, but I put up two wooden cutting boards as a barrier.)

[vartio]

okey

have you try any Flux Detector

top of turbine

[MrfixitRick]

I haven't tried a flux detector yet, but I've got one ordered.

[HemiHotRod]

I thought this was going to be a joke Rick, but it is actually really interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[HemiHotRod]

BTW, have you experimented with less magnets?

The reason i am asking is: a 2 pole electric motor runs at 3600 rpm's. A 4 pole electric motor runs at 1800 rpm's. It looks like you are using 6 magnets in your design now, did you ever try 4 or less magnets?

[MrfixitRick]

I used 3 magnets in my first design and it was remarkably stable magnetically-coupled with a skilsaw blade. I went to 6 magnets for the same reason that Tesla added washers to the original Tesla Turbine ...better low rpm torque.

[MrfixitRick]

It literally made the hairs on my neck stand up when I first noticed this effect; it was so contrary to initial intuition i.e. things shouldn't go backwards like that. It's probably no big deal for those who are used to odd magnetic effects, but for me I have a new respect and hope for rotating magnetic fields.

[boxa888]

mrfixitrick, have you read that unipolar generator article by tesla,i think thats one of the quotes in it, its really awesome. the words that get me in that article are "selfsustaining", hmmm

[MrfixitRick]

Yes, that is a great article by Tesla and is recommended reading for anyone interested in his works. It seems like a good topic for recovering lost science.

[GothicAnarchist666]

fill the bowl with water and then drop the ball in

[MrfixitRick]

Yeah, did that. I could induce forward or backward movement depending on rpms, height of water, and whether ball sank from magnetic vortex and water vortex created.

[TWISTYTWAT]

holy crap!!!1 that would make a good engin (bowl) just insted of a bolw a wheel and somehow atach the magnet to it hmmm?

[MrfixitRick]

Good thinking! I tried something similar with a smaller bowl where the ball stayed stationary, but rotating, and the bowl moved around from the ball's movement. Perhaps the ball bearings of a motor could power the motor!

[TWISTYTWAT]

why thank you ^^

[vartio]

i was wondering what will happen if you put second turbine top of first turbine ?

or try to turn second one upsidedown?

[MrfixitRick]

Yes, I've been wondering, too, and have just received some magnets to build another to try out. I designed the CD Turbines to be "stackable", but haven't tried that yet.

[LukeSkyscraper]

It's a long time since I studied any physics but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's something to do with induction. This is gut feeling physics and very un-scientific but the ball being close means the powerful field overrides any fields generated in the ball, when it's further away the ball is moving through the magnetic field and so get's eddy currents induced in it and they in turn have a field of their own. if you can try it with a ball made of laminar metal to reduce eddies.

[LukeSkyscraper]

How about a non ferrous ball as well.. that will tell you if there's any odd induction effects going on because the material itself is non magnetic.

[MrfixitRick]

Nonferrous, i.e. aluminum will still be affected. I just sent an aluminum pie-plate sailing tonight!

[MrfixitRick]

Thanks for the feedback; what you say seems true. The ball I use is magnetic. Plain steel balls stick to the turbine magnets and stop it, or get shot off with force, hence aren't a lot of fun to play with. Magnets, on the other hand always seem to present surprises.

[AdminOnDuty]

Excellent! LMAOLOL at the beginning. I can so relate to Harvards Law!

Now, seriously - regarding the foam wrapped ball. This is some insightful work. I find the variant speed of each revolution intriquing as well. This brings us back to the earlier suspension tests. If hanging it from a line doesn't have the effect we still don't have a solid answer o.O

I'd like to see two balls with a vertical wall between them on the drive magnet BCD. Will they turn in opposite directions?

[MrfixitRick]

Thanks for comments.

On your suggestion, I spent some time with the "ball on a string" test, and found, that indeed it could go backwards against the rotation of the turbine. It took over an hour to figure out various heights, and rpms. It was much easier to get the effect on a surface, but it did happen on a string. I hope to post a video in a couple of days showing that and other interesting vortex effects.

[flight110]

Very interesting stuff.

[markuks]

can you say that this tesla turbine of yours works by whirpooling of the water???

[MrfixitRick]

The main principle behind how the Tesla Turbine works is fluid adhesion and boundary layer effects between the narrow space between the flat discs. The incoming fluid speeds up through the nozzle, hits the outer edges of the discs, and moves to the center outlet in a spiral manner, pulling the discs around.

There is a definite vortex whirlpooling involved as well, but the main action on the discs is through the above means.

[Selasia]

Has anyone done a more scientific mapping of these vortex fields and its current flows?

See also the Rodin Coil and the the Vortex mathmatics by Marko Rodin.

I'd like to see the link between the Eddy current effect and the vortex currents.

[MrfixitRick]

I would like to experiment with a Rodin coil above the magnetic field of the turbine. Suggestions on a magnetics visualization program for a Mac would be appreciated.

[markuks]

what an odd effect...

[hartnell114]

haha watch the teeth!, what did you break originally to think, im going to wrap this in stryofoam? :)

what might be the effect say if this were somehow connected to a whimshurst generator? :D

[MrfixitRick]

Actually, the magnet in styrofoam wrap was an idea to float the magnet in water, but it sank.(the magnet, not the idea!) After it bounced off the window, I realized it had double-duty!

[gerritbuggenhout]

oh u found the cause of the inverted direction.the ball doens't rotate around himself no more :...