Jesus warned against the lies of religion. For the catholic church, women could only be two things; wives or whores. They excommunicated all single/married women who wouldn't procreate regardless of their health or financial situation, condemn contraception and demanded that married couple had like 15 children or abstain, etc. According to 1 Corinthians 7:5, sex within the bound of marriage is not ONLY for procreation. Paul even says it'sa bad idea for spouses to deprive each other of sex.
Women don't need the hypocritical, lying religious structure in order to be priests. The NT says that ALL including women are PRIESTS in Christ under the New Covenant. True Christianity is relationship with Christ, not religion. And the true body of Christ is the believers, individually and corporately, we are the temple of God/the Spirit. The true church is not a building or a religious structure, but the body of believers. Forget what religion says, what the Bible says is what matters...
"There is neither male nor female for we are all one in Christ Jesus." That means equality of gender. Would Paul contradict himself? Paul was talking about a group of newly convert women who had just came out of paganism, who had to remain silent in order to learn. You can't teach before you have learned. You can't run unless you have learned to walk first. Jesus never forbade women to speak or teach. We are all PRIESTS under the New Covenant, that means women too. The religious system lies...
Excellent video Fisherdawn. It is true that Paul's writting letters were about specific groups of people for a specific time. People who are serious about studying the Bible should keep audience relevance in mind. The catholic church built many mysoginist false doctrines around some passages of scripture that they have misinterpreted. Jesus treated women with respect, love and care and never said anything about them not speaking or teaching...
It's so irritating when a supposed "context" is brought up in response to Paul on this subject. There's no context needed to understand that he means 'shut up, bi#ch.'
The problem with this video is that you make it seem as though Paul just wrote his own ideas instead of God inspired scripture that never changes. If the Bible says women should not teach in church then a woman would be living in disobedience towards God to disobey that. The Bible never says anything about just because the times change and women are more educated now that all of a sudden its ok.
Women are not suppose to be preaching, end of story. It does not mean a woman cant participate in the work of God. Simply means she should not be at the pulpit preaching. This is also in the old testament, The high priest were always male. Their is a difference between a Prophet and a Preist, Learn the difference
Sir, You can not denote the part of the bible that was inspired God. For all Scripture was is the breathe God written by man who God inspired. To say we misunderstand Paul is very liberal of you....
I thinks its pretty humerous that the person posting this video on 'YouTube' thinks that they know something more then the men that have studied the Word of God for years. Dont you think that say, Mark Driscoll for example, would have considered the train of thought that Paul was writing this to a specific church at a specific time? He obviously has his reasons why he chooses to run his church this way. Why is this effecting you? Are you offended that someone wouldnt let you preach or something?
I think the issue should not be about should women be able to preach or not, this sounds like an issue of pride and Satan was thrown out of heaven for being prideful. Why do we need to argue this point? Is our salvation riding on this? I dont think so!
@ashlovesme1983 the point is there are so many women who use their sex to be cute in the pulpit or wow is me I am abused.They trampled Gods word they are not to preach period.even if it sounds good.
In the bible Jesus did not call even a single woman to be one of His Apostles, for the leadership of His church belongs to men called of God. There is not one example in the bible of a woman preacher and teacher of God's word in a public assembly such as a church, for that would be usurping the authority of men. Women in the bible have held the office of a prophetess, which is foretelling what God will do in the future but never the offfice of a public teacher/ preacher of God's word.
No one can deny that man is the centre-piece of God's creation. The man Adam was given authority over all of God's creation. Even the woman Eve was created for the man Adam as his helpmate and is under his rule ( Genesis 3:16). Jesus the Messiah came to earth in the form of a man, not a woman to rescue us from sin. Ephesians 5:23 tells us..." For the husband is the head of the wife...." That is why Paul forbids a woman to teach in church over men, for she would usurping their authority.
The church leadership qualifications in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and Tit. 1:5-9 say in biblical Greek "mias gunaikos aner," which literally means "a man of one woman." Yet Bible translators in those instances render those words as "the husband of one wife." Many people confuse "husband is the head of the wife" with "all men are heads of all women," the latter of which is not true. What is forbidden is for a wife to usurp authority over HER OWN husband.
@quemacha 1 Timothy 3:1-7 tells us that one of the required qualifications of a church bishop is that he must be "the husband of one wife ", which immediately reveals to us that the God-mandated gender for church leadership is A MAN, not a woman. The bible says the same thing again in Titus 1:5-9 for church elders who are again expected to be men. Why, you might asked ? It is simply because God has appointed man to be the spiritual leader of mankind, not woman.
@quemacha In 1 Corinthians 11:3, the Apostle Paul, called of Jesus, also clearly said...." But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. " This is God's ordained order for His creation, and righfully so, for man (Adam) was created before woman (Eve)...and woman (Eve) was CREATED FOR MAN (Adam). It is not the other way round. That is why in 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul forbids a woman to teach or to have authority over man.
@quemacha The spiritual head of your 87-year-old widowed grandmother is the pastor of the church she attends. The Apostle Paul, when it comes to the order and organization in the church of God, clearly spells out that women are not to teach or have authority over men in the church. And concerning the preaching of God's gospel to the lost....no, the bible doesn't forbid women to go out and share the gospel with the lost, as some women apologists falsely claimed.
Do women in your church wear head coverings, and follow biblical regulations on hair length? Does a wife follow her husband if he disagrees with the pastor (say her husband supports women preaching)?
@quemacha How are your questions related to the subject of the bible not allowing women to teach & lead in church? Since when does the actual practice of believers decide what is biblically right or wrong? You need to go back to basics. Read the word of God and follow what is teaches. Not what people are doing in the churches. And if your pastor is preaching another gospel not based on the word of God, just leave the church and attend another that really reveres the word of God.
Alot of religous spirits in the hizzzouse! I am A CHILD/woman OF GOD and I preach the Gospel and MANY have been saved, healed, delivered, set free, born again, headed for heaven and denying hell!!!!! Hallelujah! Praise be to Jesus Christ the only Son of GOD!
So blessed to have a person like who stands up for the truth. My sister and I were so happy to see that you took the time and made this video which explains the truth of the bible so well in this regard. I also suggest that if you haven't already, read the book "The Deborah Company" by Jane Hamon.
P.S. I'm sorry, but the only problem I had was the music... :)
This is a shameful video. Cancel out the Aspostle Paul if you want to, but with that cancellation goes a huge part of the New Testament. Scripture is the WORD OF GOD taken in the correct context of course. Peter also had something to say about women being in submission. Banish Peter and Paul at your own peril.
I am a Christian woman and I am the Director of a Christian school. God blessed me with this. But I do not preach from the pulpit. I try to follow scripture and so does my church.
I think that the question comes down to this... Is the word of God or man? If you believe it is of God then you must also believe what Paul says about women in the Church. Jesus didn't teach on everything... He left church structure up to Paul. You must not believe the Old Testiment either. I think you said in your video that Jesus didn't talk about it in the New Testiment so it must not apply. Lol just throw out the whole OT and Paul's letters.
@booksfellover "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
Thank for the reply. I know the bible verse. And I state in my comment, that we all know the verse, but it is how we interpret it. So thanks for the verse, but it does not answer my question. At least now people know one of the verses that I was commenting about. We are all equal in transgression, it does not matter who is first, for all are last. Good luck.
Sir the church is set up just like the family, thats why the qualifications for a deacon/bishop/elder are that he must be able to rule his own house and children well. The word family comes from the word father. Why would God telme to be the head of my wife at home, then come to church and submit to my wife as my head. This is the same argument Eve had, thats why she fell into deception. Having different roles does'nt make somene better than the someone else.
The trouble with this sort of interpretation is that it could equally apply to any word of the law (and often is applied to "some" of the laws of Moses in the OT) that it was written only for the people of a particular time and place.
So how can we determine which laws were written for all time and which only for those times?
Obviously many people consider the mandate against divorce no longer to be applicable. Maybe the laws against adultery are now no longer applicable.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of YHWH, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of YHWH may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
If you believe that Paul's letters only pertained to the specific churches that they were written to, then why even include them in the Scriptures to begin with? If we believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then what was said in it is true. And using the slavery arguement is flawed. The type of slavery that existed in the Holy Land at that time was far closer to indentured servanthood than the modern idea of slavery. So do I believe that Paul thought that kind of slavery was ok? Yes
Whether Paul thought that or not is not the issue. If you believe that ALL Scripture is from GOD, then everything said in them is true. Whether Paul did or didn't know that they would be included in a Bible later, God did. And God is the one that was writing those letters THROUGH Paul. A comment like that implies that not all Scripture was divinely inspired.
Sir the bible is my life, and my comment was not intended in this manner. Paul wrote a letter to a chruch for spiritual guidance, to help, support and correct, which we have our divine scriptures today. Brother I enjoy your teachings and I agree with you 100%, brother pray for me as I pray for you, God bless.
...and after watching this video, I can say "good job, fisherdawn!". I agree with you, and I expect so would Tom Wright, who I guarantee has studied the Bible more than most of the people leaving negative comments.
Wow!!! Fisherdawn! What a load of garbage! Most of the commentors below have all ready poked enough holes in this mess and made as big a fool of you than I ever could. Enough said!!! :-)
i feel,you..may have a misunderstanding, maybe a bitof ego...maybe alot...maybe u should give us a sermon ...mark had on women???...instead of your own creation and views you have bout women. how cowardly. LOL
"All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" II Tim 3:16 Nothing else to say except that I credit my mom for bringing me back to Christ and she's not a preacher, elder, deacon choir singer, nothing fancy, just a mom who believes in God and made sure a lost one came back.
When you begin to doubt about the inspiration of some passages of the Bible because your culture tells you that they must be wrong, you should ask yourself if you are a Christian.
Shame on you... There are doctrines which were asked the apostles to preach, and only are written in the epistles. The doctrine of the church were entrusted to Paul in the most part, so we find in his epistles teachings that we don't find in other book of the Bible. Does it means that they are false or misunderstood, or were only aimed to that church?
Plus, don't use his name to push your own agenda and false doctrine about God's inerrant word. The apostle Paul was appointed by Jesus himself to spread the truth - to shine light among the darkness. If we are now saying that we misunderstood Paul's teaching on women's roles in church, we could easily way that about everything else he wrote. This leaves the door wide open to speculation. You need to stop spreading lies and creating doubt. The bible warns of people just like you.
Irrespective of this video's content, I fully disagree with your view of how we handle Scripture. "Don't rock the boat - if you say we misunderstood one thing, that throws open the floodgates." Many passages in the Bible have been misunderstood over the years, and often a DEEPER understanding of context and language results in a glorious illumination of what God has really given us in Scripture.
God's Word is inerrant, but our interpretation is not. As such, we must commit ourselves to humble study and allow for the fact that sometimes, people who have misunderstood something manage to make a lot of others agree.
The origins of our faith, detailed in the OT and practiced in the NT, involves rabbinical debate. They understood the value in discussing how God's Word was supposed to be applied. Though our faith is complete in Jesus, we'd do well to learn from them.
Why would you include Mark Driscoll in the description when this video has nothing to do with him??? Cheap way to get people to see your video - seriously.
The Gospel - offers .... freedom in Christ to become exemplary human beings for the sake of this world....to live life fully even though it will be with a suffering heart.... and to be unfettered from those and their institutions who would chain you with the guilt of their patriachal prescriptions, the toxic legacy of their traditions, and the evil of their fear.
Where the voice of hope, faith, compassion and common sense cries out in love - there is Christ amoungst us
1 Timothy 3 5(For if a MAN know not how to rule HIS own house, how shall HE take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride HE fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover HE must have a good report of them which are without; lest HE fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Timothy 3 1This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well HIS own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1 Timothy 3 is pretty clear in teaching that an "Elder","Overseer", "Pastor", "Bishop" whatever term for local church leader You wish to use is always a MAN. "He" is the "Husband" of one wife, "He" must rule his own house well, "He" must have a good standing with outsiders (unbelievers).
well said, it is so clear, but men cannot endure sound doctrines anymore in these last days 1Timothy 4,2, but give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of DEVILS
o.k. I must have missed it, Where did God say women cannot teach or preach, or hold any leadership positions? I have a King James Version, a Greek and Hebrew Bible, NIV, and the New King James. I'm not interested in who did have these positions, just in God saying that women are forbiden too. If anyone has scripture stating this please share! I also have an electronic Bible, it's just not pulling it up. I'ts King James as well.
Galatians 1:12 and Ephesians 3:1-5 are clear. It is safe to say Paul was taught directly by the inspiration and revelation of God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Paul's teachings are inspired, lucid, and precise. Apparantly beyond your capacity to accurately assimilate. Are you a woman? Are you filled with the Holy Spirit? Are you a Christian?
wow, it took 8:55 to say what should have only taken about 2-3 min. Maybe that is why women should not preach, they can't get to the point. And the long blackout moment at the end with the music playing, what was that about? Is that where I ponder the depth of what I just learned?
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.'" -Acts 2:17
*Note that the verse says sons AND daughters will prophesy.
And what about Philip the Evangelist's daughters?
"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." Acts 21:8-9
GE 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
And about the video. Great point about women not being educated at that time in many places. I fully agree we are to look at context of other writings as well but it is so because they were written for circulation among churches. I do not think Paul had different teachings for every other culture. He knew his letters were passed over.
The main problem is that we usually read passages through what we were tough before. It is hard to see it as it would be understood before.
Don't change scripture so that it will make people feel happy and accepted, love God more, or make you a nice guy. If you do then you're just working for the devil.
God knows what He is doing. He knows what women is capable of. And He has chosen men to be preachers and women to be helpers of their husbands. I think women are really smart,blessed in many ways, and lift the church up. He made us different, and He gave us different roles.
I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it looks, but it would be helpful for people to choose their words more carefully. It hurts women to have people talking that way about them.
If women can manage a household and simultaneously meet the requirements of a job and children, they are certainly "capable" of overseeing a church and preaching.
It's a matter of whether or not God wants them to, not whether or not they are capable.
Just because you're not hurt by that statement doesn't mean some of your sisters aren't. Perhaps you never came from a background where you treated as less than an equal because of your gender.
Being created in the image of God, women are capable and are already doing it.
Being created for the glory of God, we don't do everything just because we're capable of doing it.
Whether or not it is an equality issue, and it's not...it is still God's Word. This is a command from God, and we should listen to Him...even if you don't want to. He was the one that made those standards. So are we to listen to Him or to you? And why do you keep going against what God had commanded us? The bible says that people who are God's are those who obey His Words.
It's not my words that hurt. The gospel is something that offends people. You and every Christian should know this. Even the Truth itself, read straight from the Bible will offend people. Don't just give them the sweet topping; you have to give them the whole cake.
God says that Himself...that the Gospel is an offending message...He says in:
1 Corinthians 1:23 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
We are to be gentle to oneanother, as sheep. Everything in love.
It is not the Gospel I have a problem with. It's the notion that women are somehow incapable of doing things men can do that I have a problem with.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's against God's will for women to be in leadership roles within the church. I just don't like the word "capable" when it comes to this issue. It has nothing to do with that. God bless.
So the Apostle Paul and Jesus never said anything that hurted anyone? I don't know about you, but their Words convicted and hurt me. Being a Christian is not about being the nicest, sweetest person, with a cherry on top. If it is then John the Baptist wouldn't have called anyone a brood of vipers. It's about Love and the Truth. If you love them, tell them the truth. Even if it hurts. We dont go around aiming to hurt others. We're to share the gospel and whole truth, not half a truth.
I came from a background where women have no say in anything. Where they are forced into marriage and have no justice. Why would you assume that I never came from such a background? Just because I have a different perspective doesn't make me more or less likely to come from such a background. Just know that it is not a background, and equality issue. People want it to become an equality issue so they can have it their way.
About the film. You cannot make that argument that the verses to do apply to us, because the whole bible was written to people at different times. That doesn't make it not apply to us. Paul wrote letters to churches, but they all help us learn how to live the will of God and we need them. Even homosexuals say that Sodom and Gomorrah have nothing to do with homosexuality today. Or they try to find other verses to support their sin.
The problem I see is that the references to homosexuality being sin are found in both the OT and the NT. The words of Jesus in Mt 19:4also indicates homosexuality is a perversion of God's original design.
However, we have cases as in the case of Deborah(who was a judge of Israel and a prophet who men went to for the word of God) in the OT which appears to contradict Paul's exhortations.
Deborah was a prophetess (Judges 4:4). Deborah rose a mother in Israel, not a preacher (Judges 5:7). Judges 4:5 show the children of Israel coming to her for judgement, and according to 1 Corinthian 6:2 the saints shall judge the world, so since they came to her for judgment doesn't make her no preacher, that would mean all saints are preachers, common sense. If you got a problem and your wife tells you the best way to go about it, that doesn't make her a preacher, she just gave you advice.
Yet, we know that women were prophesying in the synagogues or even in Acts we see some examples... so they were nor really quiet.
Moreover, if deborah was a judge she held an authority as one unveiling the Law.
Moreover in 1 Cor. Paul speaks either of women or wives - the second one is more possible since he states if they want to learn ask they are to ask their husbands (he should be the first to lead wife in the knowledge of God). And he goes to saying it is according to the Law.
And according to the Law wife was the one subjected to her husband - not to any other man. If in this context it is about marriage then 1 cor refers to the same situation.
The reason why it is shameful for a wife to ask questions in the church is the fact her husband ought to teach her on the first place (Eph. 5:26-27)
Declaring woman as mute in the church is taking away more than half of gift of the same spirit men have.
Still, I DO NOT think women should be leaders/elders/deacons. It is clearly showed that these seats belonged to men. I think women should not have such authority. Nevertheless, under elders and the word of God they are to teach and counsel (Priscilla was helping in teaching Apollos).
But NEVER as elders and people on the highest seats.
I don't know, on this one. But I do know that women speaking in the synagogue or the Temple prior to and during Jesus' life was a non-issue. Women weren't even allowed inside with the men for the reading of the Torah.
Also, I mentioned American culture because egaletarianism is flooding this country. Woman now have most of the opportunities men have. However, when you take this culture change and try to apply it to church guidelines, as Paul wrote out , you're setting your church up for big problems. Churches need men to lead. It's the way God designed male and female roles. None are higher than the other but each have different roles in church. If the bible said any clearer you still wouldn't accept it.
and i forgot to mention that fisherdawn basically says that because Paul's writings were only for a specific time, then half of the new testament is one big lie. i have never ever come across someone as skewed as you. i have nothing against women and neither does the bible, but it does have certain rules set up for the benefit of the church.
your first two options show that you don't believe that the Bible is completely true which shows that you aren't really a true Christian. your 3rd point doesn't work either because you say that paul is lying. you are not credible at all. please anyone that is confused about this at all... don't listen to these lies.
I bet this was made by a woman? Although I'm not taking sides on this issue, I do have to say that we must not try to work out explanations of scripture based on our own feelings or culture because then we start twisting the word or bypassing it completely. Paul had special revelation from the Holy Spirit on how to church should be modeled. American women have a hard time understanding and accepting this
God has ordained the order of things in Scripture.God created the man first and then the woman.The Bible hasordained certain roles to men, to do otherwise would beto usurp the authority of God's ordination of man over woman.Women have very important roles to play in the Church,just not leadership roles or preaching roles.We can't pick and choose what we want to believe from the Bible in that case,let's just say that homosexuality is now ok because it is now "culturally" acceptable. It is absurd.
women have been annointed to God's service all through the Bible. It is a twisting of Scripture and heresy from Hell to tell women to shut up about salvation. Is it against God's Law for a woman to save a person from drowning? Neither is it against God's Law for a woman to deliver the Word of Life and deliver a soul from Hell. Apostle Paul wrote a whole half chapter on how women should dress while they were praying and prophesying. And he commended the female pastor, Phoebe Romans 16:1
No one is exempt from "preaching" the word. There are however limitations on who the Pastor or Elders should be. Women usually use the verse" there is no male or female...in Christ" to say that it is okay to be a Pastor.The funny thing is that we wouldn't have been having this discussion on both gender sides 150 + yrs ago. Dont speak your opinions based on the American culture but on Biblical truth.
it amazing you say I speak opinion. which I clearly did not. Did Paul call her a pastor in Romans no it did not it said I commend unto you our Sister Phoebe. Before you talk look at the scripture. American culture please.
Okay, both of us agree we need to look at scipture. First of all, Paul did commend Pheobe which YOU did call a female pastor. The argument here is that females shouldn't be pastors or elders. So you, probably being a woman, will try to find whatever loophole you can find to fit scripture with your opinion. I think women can be amazing teachers and I've seen amazing sisters who have preached well. Is it biblical for a woman to be the Pastor/Elder of a church? No. Do I like that guideline? No.
what are you reading I'm a man I dont support women pastors preachers,elder,deaconess ect...
are you slow. Waldenehn made a comment about being Phoebe being a women pastor. I said Paul never called her that in Romans. Maybe these comment things is offline because my replies is not going where I type them
well, I'm certainly not slow. But now I am confused at whom I was speaking with. I thought you were the one who said that Paul commended Pheobe as a pastor...sorry, I agree with your point of view. Hahaa, I think these comments are jumping around too. Okay, well I was referring to Waldenehn too.
By the way, on your comment waldenehn, no man nor woman can deliver a person from hell. This is God's job. He is the author of salvation not us. it is okay to evangelize. But Paul gave instructions on how the church should be modeled. Men and women- just like the family- have God-Ordained roles.
Paul was talking about no longer being a slave to sin. That is a very irresponsible way to "interpret" that verse. If Paul's writings were just for those churches at those times, then there is no point in having them around for the Church today. Please reexamine your hermeneutic.
The bible declares women can preach. From the pulpit or anywhere else. But it's the office of pastor/elder that God has reserved for the man according to scripture.
Light 487. I am not saying nor is the Bible that women are second class people. What is wrong is the secular thought has permated the Church to the point that we think the position as a leader is to be esteemed because of the power it gives someone. Nothing could be farther than the truth. The position of leadership should be esteemed because of the sacrifice it entails. Not because of the power that comes with it.
I don't know what the right answer is to this question.. one thing I do know is that the state of the church in 2008 is abysmal and many "male" pastors and ministers do not deserve the title of pastor and minister, let alone the right to call themselves Christians.
Should women be allowed to preach? I don't see why not.. I am not seeing anyone here making a valid argument against women being preachers in today's fallen culture... I only see men arguing with women and amongst themselves.
light487, go to 1 timothy2:12. There is no command for women to be pastor/teachers. Only men. If you look at the following context in which the mentioned verse is written it will become clear. Get a good commentary and some history books, they will help you solve this dilemma.
did u even watch the clip? The only reason that was written was becuase many women were iliterate at that time. They would have preached wrong doctrine. Now there is no law saying women cant read or be educated!!
light487, go to 1 timothy2:12. There is no command for women to be pastor/teachers. Only men. If you look at the following context in which the mentioned verse is written it will become clear. Get a good commentary and some history books, they will help you solve this dilemma.
light 487 you have made a great point that I agree with. The church is a six flags over Jesus right now. Some pastors are of the devil not sheperds of Gods flock. 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a women to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not decieved, but the women......" That is my argument. I beleive as a Christian the Bible is the standard to conduct church as well as personal life. continued........
Galatians 5:1 when used in CONTEXT, speaks of the Law of Moses being a "yoke of bondage", not actual slavery. Actual slavery? Not around in America anymore, rules don't apply because they are made mute by the absence of slavery. Well guess what, women are still in the church, so THAT rule...applies.
I find it intresting how you assume if I have a view of women not being a pastor or teacher with authority over men that you liken me to someone who is proslavery. That is a good cover I must admit.
I absolutely believe that. too many here are falsely accusing me of not. I simply don't believe that it is "jakegwright" breathed or
"lawrenceofisrael" breathed, etc. I, too, have the Spirit of God in me and just as much right and responsibility as you to try to understand the Words He sent to us. I'm not accusing you of being a heretic simply because you understand the words and context differently. Please don't jump to that conclusion for me either.
Let me guess fisher dawn, women in your view are oppressed because a male says he believes 1 Timothy 2:11-15. That women are to not have authority or teach a man.
you're focusing on the wrong question. this is not about (for me) just whether or not I am able to pursue my gifts as a woman. It is about what women are able and willing to contribute to the Church at large and how greatly we weaken our combined efforts by holding back women who make up almost 2/3 the worldwide body of Christ. can we really afford to hold back that many who can offer so much? the Bible says we are to pray and ask God for more laborers because the harvest is GREAT!
Every one wants to be a leader. Trouble is for a congegration of say 250 people you only need 1 pastor and around 30 small group leaders. You can't tell me a church can't find 1 man with leadership abilitys. One of the reason our society is crumbling is women think they need to be leaders instead of teaching our youth. There is nothing wrong with not being a pastor/teacher.
Whilst it is certainly a scripture that deserves a cultural context, it does not open the door to that which is a common thread throughout the bible that 'leadership,(the government of Church), is undeniably male as the way God designed it'.I reckon my wife could do a better job that most male pastors as women are just more able and organised and have the same passions for serving God.Its just another of those things that we have to trust to Gods devine wisdom or risk disobedience.
word. No slave were not always slaves for life, nor were they mistreated as a whole. They often loved their masters, and they were an intrical part of society. The word slave meant something very different to Paul than it does to us. So be careful of these examples you cite concerning context.
careful....you are on very tricky ground with words like that. you are sounding a little too close to those in churches who also defended slavery in pre-civil war US history. they used the Bible to back up their assertions, too. slavery is slavery. period. be careful not to twist history to fit a present day desire to hold back women from ministry.
just to start (because all the verses and Scriptures we can look to are too numerous to post in a couple of lines)....please watch my other video on "What the Bible Really Says About Women". still working on more videos as time allows...lots of ground to cover. The other video may not address your specific questions but is a good overall view of the Bible's true view of women. BTW....I am more than happy to debate and discuss, but you could drop the sarcasm...please.
Sorry if the edge bothers you. I have debated this with others. I cannot figure out how one can profess to believe in infallabilty and say what you are saying. Explain to me your intrepretation of 1 Timothy 2.
If it God wanted us to know that women should not preach then why didnt Jesus tell us that? Why didn't God's only righteous son who can tell no lies tell us that women should not preach??
eskimo it has absolutely nothing to do with education - the Bible even says about some of the apsotles that they were NOT well educated. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but your statement misunderstands the issues completely. Do you honestly think education was a factor in who Jesus chose as leaders.
Context is a very important point that we need never forget. Yes Paul wrote to a church with uneducated women usurping power and we need to remember this when reading and applying this scripture to our lives. But you go too far in saying since Paul is the only one to mention this idea it might be called into question. John's Revelation was unique and in many ways unlike anything foretold in Daniel, Thessalonian's or anything Jesus himself had taught on His return. Does this mean we question it?
so poor. Of course jesus had not to confirm this during his life time, nor the thora. YOu know why. I tell you. Have you ever hear of a biblical, female rabbi, no. Ever heard that women spoke in synagogue to men, no because no men talked to them out of fear for breaking a law. This was as well the case at jesus lifetimes. Paul preached to gentiles and they didnt know about g-dly civilisation. Got it??
so, lawrenceofisrael, to you "g-dly" civilization means women should be silent? does that really make sense to you for Him to create women with a voice and then tell them NOT to use it for HIM?
you have a completely false opinion of what i think my friend. See women can speak and they have to actually. But they are not equal to men in rights. they have the same value but not the same rights ( simple biology ). So g-d never changes right so if he says something to paul he will not change his opinion because society and modern values changes otherwise he wouldnt be g-d. The women shall cover her head when praying or speaking as prophet but shall not preach nor raise voice in community.
lawrenceofisrael, it is clear we are on completely different pages. for you to say women are not equal to men in rights but they have the same value is completely contradictory. that is why segregation was finally seen here as inherently illegitimate. it is impossile for 2 things to be equal in value but not in rights. that makes them inherently unequal. I am sorry you do not understand the value He has placed on women.
Of course you can have the same value but different rights. Ok let me show you an example. In the time of the kings of israel and even before that in the time of abraham it was every mans dream to beget a lot children. But g-d had not given this right to men but to women and at the same time for example in the torah it says that men can have more than one woman but woman cant.
That is a false trichotomy. I have another option for you.
Everyone took what Paul clearly says as obvious and he was the only one who took the time to point this out. He testifies that this is the practice in all the churches of God.
How can you not see that the Bible clearly teaches that women can not preach.
Areyoukiddinmelol, though your words don't seem those of one who is open to truly listening to the other side I will make a small attempt at answering your comments. The actions of Jesus alone contradict your supposed "obvious" teaching that women shouldn't preach. After all, the first person He ever sent to spread the word of who He was (which is exactly what preaching is) was a woman...the woman at the well who went on to convert *many* in her town.
parts of this video were just laughable...like taking galatians 5:1 the furthest out of context i may have ever seen a verse used...well done...and saying that paul's views on women in authority in the church were just for that church and that time frame...this would be exactly why he uses CREATION to back up his argument...he went just about as far outside of the authorial context as he could to defend his point...therefore his argument is not intended for only his current context...
echols66, so on what basis do you approve of the dismantling of the practice of slavery as its institution was often supported by the very same type of words from Paul you are still using to justify the limited role of women? Or do you still think we should be following those "commands" as well, that slaves should "obey their masters"?
see, what you don't seem to understand is that Paul never set out to change the societal structures. Ever...you cannot find one instance in which he did so. Therefore he never gave a command to own or not to own slaves. Rather he set out to give commands of how each was to live as Christian. If youre a Christian and a slave, obey your master. If youre a slave owner and a Christian, start treating your slaves like brothers, not slaves.
so according to your theory, if societal structures change *on their own* as slavery did, then it is okay for the church to reflect those changes. just so long as it involves the freeing of certain races, but not including certain genders. btw, this newer debate about the historical form of slavery (heard it before) is just not accurate. Paul was not ignorant of how most slaves were treated. His words about there being no "Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free" shows his ultimate hope.
Your reference in Galatians 3 MUST be read within the context of the text. He's speaking of salvation, not church leadership. Your "progressive theology" that states we have progressed beyond the teachings of the bible doesnt work. You're dealing with skirting issues and trying to do so by dragging Driscoll into this as well. If you really did your homework you would know that even some complimentarians call him liberal for having women deacons in his church...
also, if you really looked at Paul's argument in 1 Timothy on women in leadership you would know that the egalitarian position does not hold water. the only argument against that text is that paul's argument is cultural. He points back to the creative order, which is well beyond any culture Paul was in.
you are also very much so distorting the view of complimentarianism by pulling out the most rash quotes (even out of context) against women. Complimentarianism lifts women up as equal to men but they serve a different purpose. My left hand and my right hand are equal. I would be screwed if i had two left hands or two right hands. However, each hand has a different role and each hand is necessary for my life to function the way it is intended.
funny how some people are dominant left hand and others right. I guess you would deem those who are left handed out of order and akin to feminists for usurping the role of the normally dominant right hand. crazy left handers should just stay in their place and accept their role as "equal but different", right?
wow....you just completely missed the point that i was making.....amazing....i can only hope that you dont read the entire Bible the way you just read my posts...
didn't miss the point, echols66, just wanted to point out that you, too, have to be careful using examples to back up your view. we all have a filter...no one reads the Bible without preconceived ideas. we should all always be on the alert for what our filters are causing us to miss and misinterpret. I simply think you should look hard at what assumptions you make.
no, i was careful in choosing my example...even those who are left dominant (or right dominant) they need their non-dominant hand to function normally. I will say that I am cross-dominant and therefore show the completeness of said example. I agree with the fact that we all have lenses in which we read the bible through...therefore we must look at the whole of historical Christianity in order to obtain the best viewpoint in which to interpret the Scriptures
Paul gave his commands to the Church, they were never meant to judge or regulate the world (see 1 Cor. 5 on world vs. church in Paul's eyes). Also, if you were to do more studying into the historical form of slavery, it was much closer to employment of today than slavery of 200 years ago, though there are exceptions.
If Paul's writing against women teaching in the church is only for a SPECIFIC church, time, cultures etc. then we can dismiss 51% of the New Testament (that which Paul wrote) as having ANYTHING to say to us under the assertion that everything he said was SPECIFIC church, time, cultures etc. including what he has to say about homosexuality - which Jesus never said anything about. The assertion that Paul didn't know his writing s would be read abroad is a LIE! Read 2 Peter 3:15-16
careful, rikfleming, the issue of homosex. is clearly apples to oranges in the Bible. It is without equivocation called a "sin". Please show me anywhere in scriptures it is actually called a "sin" for a woman to speak or preach. any scholar can tell you there are parts of the Bible that were meant for a specific time and place...the debate is not if there are different types of commands, but over which ones will be interpreted that way and by whom.
That's an excellent video, Fisherdawn. Keep up the good work...
Cutie9326 1 week ago
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Jesus warned against the lies of religion. For the catholic church, women could only be two things; wives or whores. They excommunicated all single/married women who wouldn't procreate regardless of their health or financial situation, condemn contraception and demanded that married couple had like 15 children or abstain, etc. According to 1 Corinthians 7:5, sex within the bound of marriage is not ONLY for procreation. Paul even says it'sa bad idea for spouses to deprive each other of sex.
Cutie9326 1 week ago
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Cutie9326 1 week ago
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Cutie9326 1 week ago
Women don't need the hypocritical, lying religious structure in order to be priests. The NT says that ALL including women are PRIESTS in Christ under the New Covenant. True Christianity is relationship with Christ, not religion. And the true body of Christ is the believers, individually and corporately, we are the temple of God/the Spirit. The true church is not a building or a religious structure, but the body of believers. Forget what religion says, what the Bible says is what matters...
Cutie9326 1 week ago
"There is neither male nor female for we are all one in Christ Jesus." That means equality of gender. Would Paul contradict himself? Paul was talking about a group of newly convert women who had just came out of paganism, who had to remain silent in order to learn. You can't teach before you have learned. You can't run unless you have learned to walk first. Jesus never forbade women to speak or teach. We are all PRIESTS under the New Covenant, that means women too. The religious system lies...
Cutie9326 1 week ago
Excellent video Fisherdawn. It is true that Paul's writting letters were about specific groups of people for a specific time. People who are serious about studying the Bible should keep audience relevance in mind. The catholic church built many mysoginist false doctrines around some passages of scripture that they have misinterpreted. Jesus treated women with respect, love and care and never said anything about them not speaking or teaching...
Cutie9326 1 week ago
It's so irritating when a supposed "context" is brought up in response to Paul on this subject. There's no context needed to understand that he means 'shut up, bi#ch.'
mooney137 2 weeks ago
God called men to be leaders not women..
ottodubon 3 weeks ago
The problem with this video is that you make it seem as though Paul just wrote his own ideas instead of God inspired scripture that never changes. If the Bible says women should not teach in church then a woman would be living in disobedience towards God to disobey that. The Bible never says anything about just because the times change and women are more educated now that all of a sudden its ok.
ReformedEklektos 1 month ago
what does Mark Driscoll have to do with this...
gilbert4321 1 month ago
Track list please!!!!
40518221 2 months ago
Your music is quite annoying. It certainly doesn't add to the veracity of your words, if that is your intention. ;-(
theGodfollower 3 months ago
sorry pressed post to soon Must be getting old Women have a important role in churches just not at the pulpit
oldgamergeek 5 months ago
1st timothy chapter 2 verse 12 Paul writes " But I suffer not a women to teach , nor to usurp the authority over the Man, but to be in silence." KJV
oldgamergeek 5 months ago
Women are not suppose to be preaching, end of story. It does not mean a woman cant participate in the work of God. Simply means she should not be at the pulpit preaching. This is also in the old testament, The high priest were always male. Their is a difference between a Prophet and a Preist, Learn the difference
Adriangrosvenor 7 months ago
All scripture is God breathed. Putting scripture against scripture is heretical. That is all
mistamoon1 8 months ago
Sir, You can not denote the part of the bible that was inspired God. For all Scripture was is the breathe God written by man who God inspired. To say we misunderstand Paul is very liberal of you....
Acanaro 8 months ago
I thinks its pretty humerous that the person posting this video on 'YouTube' thinks that they know something more then the men that have studied the Word of God for years. Dont you think that say, Mark Driscoll for example, would have considered the train of thought that Paul was writing this to a specific church at a specific time? He obviously has his reasons why he chooses to run his church this way. Why is this effecting you? Are you offended that someone wouldnt let you preach or something?
ashlovesme1983 10 months ago
I think the issue should not be about should women be able to preach or not, this sounds like an issue of pride and Satan was thrown out of heaven for being prideful. Why do we need to argue this point? Is our salvation riding on this? I dont think so!
ashlovesme1983 10 months ago
@ashlovesme1983 the point is there are so many women who use their sex to be cute in the pulpit or wow is me I am abused.They trampled Gods word they are not to preach period.even if it sounds good.
Savethelostones 10 months ago
@Savethelostones pharesee :) plaslm 57. period
Janochka777 2 months ago
In the bible Jesus did not call even a single woman to be one of His Apostles, for the leadership of His church belongs to men called of God. There is not one example in the bible of a woman preacher and teacher of God's word in a public assembly such as a church, for that would be usurping the authority of men. Women in the bible have held the office of a prophetess, which is foretelling what God will do in the future but never the offfice of a public teacher/ preacher of God's word.
opsvideo2008 1 year ago
No one can deny that man is the centre-piece of God's creation. The man Adam was given authority over all of God's creation. Even the woman Eve was created for the man Adam as his helpmate and is under his rule ( Genesis 3:16). Jesus the Messiah came to earth in the form of a man, not a woman to rescue us from sin. Ephesians 5:23 tells us..." For the husband is the head of the wife...." That is why Paul forbids a woman to teach in church over men, for she would usurping their authority.
opsvideo2008 1 year ago
@opsvideo2008
The church leadership qualifications in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and Tit. 1:5-9 say in biblical Greek "mias gunaikos aner," which literally means "a man of one woman." Yet Bible translators in those instances render those words as "the husband of one wife." Many people confuse "husband is the head of the wife" with "all men are heads of all women," the latter of which is not true. What is forbidden is for a wife to usurp authority over HER OWN husband.
quemacha 8 months ago
@quemacha 1 Timothy 3:1-7 tells us that one of the required qualifications of a church bishop is that he must be "the husband of one wife ", which immediately reveals to us that the God-mandated gender for church leadership is A MAN, not a woman. The bible says the same thing again in Titus 1:5-9 for church elders who are again expected to be men. Why, you might asked ? It is simply because God has appointed man to be the spiritual leader of mankind, not woman.
opsvideo2008 8 months ago
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@quemacha In 1 Corinthians 11:3, the Apostle Paul, called of Jesus, also clearly said...." But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. " This is God's ordained order for His creation, and righfully so, for man (Adam) was created before woman (Eve)...and woman (Eve) was CREATED FOR MAN (Adam). It is not the other way round. That is why in 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul forbids a woman to teach or to have authority over man.
opsvideo2008 8 months ago
@opsvideo2008
Who is the head of my 87-year-old widowed grandmother?
quemacha 8 months ago
@quemacha The spiritual head of your 87-year-old widowed grandmother is the pastor of the church she attends. The Apostle Paul, when it comes to the order and organization in the church of God, clearly spells out that women are not to teach or have authority over men in the church. And concerning the preaching of God's gospel to the lost....no, the bible doesn't forbid women to go out and share the gospel with the lost, as some women apologists falsely claimed.
opsvideo2008 8 months ago
@opsvideo2008
Do women in your church wear head coverings, and follow biblical regulations on hair length? Does a wife follow her husband if he disagrees with the pastor (say her husband supports women preaching)?
quemacha 8 months ago
@quemacha How are your questions related to the subject of the bible not allowing women to teach & lead in church? Since when does the actual practice of believers decide what is biblically right or wrong? You need to go back to basics. Read the word of God and follow what is teaches. Not what people are doing in the churches. And if your pastor is preaching another gospel not based on the word of God, just leave the church and attend another that really reveres the word of God.
opsvideo2008 8 months ago
All I can say ((THANK YOU))
Tommiegail1 1 year ago
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Alot of religous spirits in the hizzzouse! I am A CHILD/woman OF GOD and I preach the Gospel and MANY have been saved, healed, delivered, set free, born again, headed for heaven and denying hell!!!!! Hallelujah! Praise be to Jesus Christ the only Son of GOD!
PureGraceEvangelism 1 year ago
So blessed to have a person like who stands up for the truth. My sister and I were so happy to see that you took the time and made this video which explains the truth of the bible so well in this regard. I also suggest that if you haven't already, read the book "The Deborah Company" by Jane Hamon.
P.S. I'm sorry, but the only problem I had was the music... :)
xsavedkt 1 year ago
READ 1st and 2ND TIMOTHY for GODS"""WORD on the LEADERSHIP OF THE CHURCH HIS CHURCH NOT MANS
Savethelostones 1 year ago
@Savethelostones Im pretty sure that Paul wrote Timothy so this wont support any argument you have in the mind of the person who posted this video.
ashlovesme1983 10 months ago
the new testament is the church of Jesus Christ the pastoral epistle are the instutions of God to the church on Lewasership READ 1st TIMOTHY
Savethelostones 1 year ago
This is a shameful video. Cancel out the Aspostle Paul if you want to, but with that cancellation goes a huge part of the New Testament. Scripture is the WORD OF GOD taken in the correct context of course. Peter also had something to say about women being in submission. Banish Peter and Paul at your own peril.
I am a Christian woman and I am the Director of a Christian school. God blessed me with this. But I do not preach from the pulpit. I try to follow scripture and so does my church.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
this video is bad exegesis.
Revinius 1 year ago
I think that the question comes down to this... Is the word of God or man? If you believe it is of God then you must also believe what Paul says about women in the Church. Jesus didn't teach on everything... He left church structure up to Paul. You must not believe the Old Testiment either. I think you said in your video that Jesus didn't talk about it in the New Testiment so it must not apply. Lol just throw out the whole OT and Paul's letters.
lukedee123 1 year ago
KEY WORDS: @1:43 " I DONT BELEIVE PAUL"....
ENOUGH SAID..........
Jesus didnt give direct commandment to breathe oxygen did he? No he didnt...
So, hold your breath and dont breathe...
Because Jesus didnt give you a direct commandment to breathe or not too!!!
STUPID PEOPLE WITH STUPID IDEOLOGIES........
IM NOT GOING TO EVEN FINISH THE VIDEO...
CastingStonez 1 year ago
If women are capable then it is oppression to not allow them to use these God given abilities.
And to those saying that it is in the Bible then we must follow it, I say yes, but it is the interpretation of it that is what the fighting is about.
We are all fallible, but personally, I fall on the side of caution and say allow them to preach. If it is evil or wrong then God will clear it up.
booksfellover 1 year ago
@booksfellover "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
Itrytotestify 1 year ago
Thank for the reply. I know the bible verse. And I state in my comment, that we all know the verse, but it is how we interpret it. So thanks for the verse, but it does not answer my question. At least now people know one of the verses that I was commenting about. We are all equal in transgression, it does not matter who is first, for all are last. Good luck.
booksfellover 1 year ago
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philipdunwoody1 1 year ago
Sir the church is set up just like the family, thats why the qualifications for a deacon/bishop/elder are that he must be able to rule his own house and children well. The word family comes from the word father. Why would God telme to be the head of my wife at home, then come to church and submit to my wife as my head. This is the same argument Eve had, thats why she fell into deception. Having different roles does'nt make somene better than the someone else.
tbursee 2 years ago
The trouble with this sort of interpretation is that it could equally apply to any word of the law (and often is applied to "some" of the laws of Moses in the OT) that it was written only for the people of a particular time and place.
So how can we determine which laws were written for all time and which only for those times?
Obviously many people consider the mandate against divorce no longer to be applicable. Maybe the laws against adultery are now no longer applicable.
How do you judge?
prodprod 2 years ago
You quote: Jesus never once mentions any limitations to women speaking or teaching in the New Testament........
Don´t think that Paul wrote the letters just out of the blue.
2. Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of YHWH, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of YHWH may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
PapillonSG 2 years ago
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PapillonSG 2 years ago
If you believe that Paul's letters only pertained to the specific churches that they were written to, then why even include them in the Scriptures to begin with? If we believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then what was said in it is true. And using the slavery arguement is flawed. The type of slavery that existed in the Holy Land at that time was far closer to indentured servanthood than the modern idea of slavery. So do I believe that Paul thought that kind of slavery was ok? Yes
dmelloy82 2 years ago
They were included because it was a letter, Paul never knew that it would used as a bible of today.
MrBLACKRJ 2 years ago
Whether Paul thought that or not is not the issue. If you believe that ALL Scripture is from GOD, then everything said in them is true. Whether Paul did or didn't know that they would be included in a Bible later, God did. And God is the one that was writing those letters THROUGH Paul. A comment like that implies that not all Scripture was divinely inspired.
dmelloy82 2 years ago
Sir the bible is my life, and my comment was not intended in this manner. Paul wrote a letter to a chruch for spiritual guidance, to help, support and correct, which we have our divine scriptures today. Brother I enjoy your teachings and I agree with you 100%, brother pray for me as I pray for you, God bless.
MrBLACKRJ 2 years ago
...and after watching this video, I can say "good job, fisherdawn!". I agree with you, and I expect so would Tom Wright, who I guarantee has studied the Bible more than most of the people leaving negative comments.
Saladzingers 2 years ago
Wow!!! Fisherdawn! What a load of garbage! Most of the commentors below have all ready poked enough holes in this mess and made as big a fool of you than I ever could. Enough said!!! :-)
JackRyan09 2 years ago
i feel,you..may have a misunderstanding, maybe a bitof ego...maybe alot...maybe u should give us a sermon ...mark had on women???...instead of your own creation and views you have bout women. how cowardly. LOL
mayreal13 2 years ago
"All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" II Tim 3:16 Nothing else to say except that I credit my mom for bringing me back to Christ and she's not a preacher, elder, deacon choir singer, nothing fancy, just a mom who believes in God and made sure a lost one came back.
JDAM93 2 years ago 11
women are not called to be pastors read
1 Timothy 2:11-12
BigBlue4U1979 2 years ago
When you begin to doubt about the inspiration of some passages of the Bible because your culture tells you that they must be wrong, you should ask yourself if you are a Christian.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago 3
@AlexFigueroa AMEN
Savethelostones 10 months ago
Shame on you... There are doctrines which were asked the apostles to preach, and only are written in the epistles. The doctrine of the church were entrusted to Paul in the most part, so we find in his epistles teachings that we don't find in other book of the Bible. Does it means that they are false or misunderstood, or were only aimed to that church?
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
Plus, don't use his name to push your own agenda and false doctrine about God's inerrant word. The apostle Paul was appointed by Jesus himself to spread the truth - to shine light among the darkness. If we are now saying that we misunderstood Paul's teaching on women's roles in church, we could easily way that about everything else he wrote. This leaves the door wide open to speculation. You need to stop spreading lies and creating doubt. The bible warns of people just like you.
jlange73 2 years ago
Irrespective of this video's content, I fully disagree with your view of how we handle Scripture. "Don't rock the boat - if you say we misunderstood one thing, that throws open the floodgates." Many passages in the Bible have been misunderstood over the years, and often a DEEPER understanding of context and language results in a glorious illumination of what God has really given us in Scripture.
(cont'd)
Saladzingers 2 years ago 4
God's Word is inerrant, but our interpretation is not. As such, we must commit ourselves to humble study and allow for the fact that sometimes, people who have misunderstood something manage to make a lot of others agree.
The origins of our faith, detailed in the OT and practiced in the NT, involves rabbinical debate. They understood the value in discussing how God's Word was supposed to be applied. Though our faith is complete in Jesus, we'd do well to learn from them.
Saladzingers 2 years ago
Why would you include Mark Driscoll in the description when this video has nothing to do with him??? Cheap way to get people to see your video - seriously.
jlange73 2 years ago
The Gospel - offers .... freedom in Christ to become exemplary human beings for the sake of this world....to live life fully even though it will be with a suffering heart.... and to be unfettered from those and their institutions who would chain you with the guilt of their patriachal prescriptions, the toxic legacy of their traditions, and the evil of their fear.
Where the voice of hope, faith, compassion and common sense cries out in love - there is Christ amoungst us
zaaaaazzzzz 2 years ago
1 Timothy 3 5(For if a MAN know not how to rule HIS own house, how shall HE take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride HE fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover HE must have a good report of them which are without; lest HE fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
PasqualeTheDisciple 3 years ago
1 Timothy 3 1This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well HIS own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
PasqualeTheDisciple 3 years ago
1 Timothy 3 is pretty clear in teaching that an "Elder","Overseer", "Pastor", "Bishop" whatever term for local church leader You wish to use is always a MAN. "He" is the "Husband" of one wife, "He" must rule his own house well, "He" must have a good standing with outsiders (unbelievers).
PasqualeTheDisciple 3 years ago
well said, it is so clear, but men cannot endure sound doctrines anymore in these last days 1Timothy 4,2, but give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of DEVILS
MNJST 2 years ago
o.k. I must have missed it, Where did God say women cannot teach or preach, or hold any leadership positions? I have a King James Version, a Greek and Hebrew Bible, NIV, and the New King James. I'm not interested in who did have these positions, just in God saying that women are forbiden too. If anyone has scripture stating this please share! I also have an electronic Bible, it's just not pulling it up. I'ts King James as well.
MelodiesfromHeaven 3 years ago
Galatians 1:12 and Ephesians 3:1-5 are clear. It is safe to say Paul was taught directly by the inspiration and revelation of God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Paul's teachings are inspired, lucid, and precise. Apparantly beyond your capacity to accurately assimilate. Are you a woman? Are you filled with the Holy Spirit? Are you a Christian?
12CY4U2 3 years ago
wow, it took 8:55 to say what should have only taken about 2-3 min. Maybe that is why women should not preach, they can't get to the point. And the long blackout moment at the end with the music playing, what was that about? Is that where I ponder the depth of what I just learned?
dmathews78 3 years ago
He or She was presenting what she or he has. Does time really bother you much? Just listen the message instead looking at the time limite.
shinethelight18 3 years ago
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.'" -Acts 2:17
*Note that the verse says sons AND daughters will prophesy.
And what about Philip the Evangelist's daughters?
"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." Acts 21:8-9
seeker633 3 years ago
GE 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
same old scam.
maninthepew 3 years ago
This video is as slanted as a palm tree after Hurricane Rita...and then some. please.
lechanteur88 3 years ago
And about the video. Great point about women not being educated at that time in many places. I fully agree we are to look at context of other writings as well but it is so because they were written for circulation among churches. I do not think Paul had different teachings for every other culture. He knew his letters were passed over.
The main problem is that we usually read passages through what we were tough before. It is hard to see it as it would be understood before.
masterowa 3 years ago
Hmmmm...I was just wondering what you make of the fact that Jesus only chose men to be His disciples.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing either way. I'm just curious.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
Don't change scripture so that it will make people feel happy and accepted, love God more, or make you a nice guy. If you do then you're just working for the devil.
God knows what He is doing. He knows what women is capable of. And He has chosen men to be preachers and women to be helpers of their husbands. I think women are really smart,blessed in many ways, and lift the church up. He made us different, and He gave us different roles.
adaneth 3 years ago
I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it looks, but it would be helpful for people to choose their words more carefully. It hurts women to have people talking that way about them.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
If women can manage a household and simultaneously meet the requirements of a job and children, they are certainly "capable" of overseeing a church and preaching.
It's a matter of whether or not God wants them to, not whether or not they are capable.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
Yes, I did mean it the way it looks. I'm a woman, and it doesn't hurt me. The Word of God is a two edged sword and it will cut
through the lies and it will reveal what is in the hearts of men. God said that we are to be obedient to
our husbands as our husbands are head of us, and as Christ is obedient to God. And He says that men should love their
wives as Christ loves the church...that is more than anything a woman can ask for from her husband.
adaneth 3 years ago
In case people don't
know, Christ gave His life for the church. There is equality there, woman and men have different roles.
adaneth 3 years ago
adanath, with humility I say this.
Just because you're not hurt by that statement doesn't mean some of your sisters aren't. Perhaps you never came from a background where you treated as less than an equal because of your gender.
Being created in the image of God, women are capable and are already doing it.
Being created for the glory of God, we don't do everything just because we're capable of doing it.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. I'm disagreeing with how you're saying it.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
Whether or not it is an equality issue, and it's not...it is still God's Word. This is a command from God, and we should listen to Him...even if you don't want to. He was the one that made those standards. So are we to listen to Him or to you? And why do you keep going against what God had commanded us? The bible says that people who are God's are those who obey His Words.
adaneth 3 years ago
It's not my words that hurt. The gospel is something that offends people. You and every Christian should know this. Even the Truth itself, read straight from the Bible will offend people. Don't just give them the sweet topping; you have to give them the whole cake.
God says that Himself...that the Gospel is an offending message...He says in:
1 Corinthians 1:23 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
adaneth 3 years ago
We are to be gentle to oneanother, as sheep. Everything in love.
It is not the Gospel I have a problem with. It's the notion that women are somehow incapable of doing things men can do that I have a problem with.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's against God's will for women to be in leadership roles within the church. I just don't like the word "capable" when it comes to this issue. It has nothing to do with that. God bless.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
I never said that they were not capable.
adaneth 3 years ago
So the Apostle Paul and Jesus never said anything that hurted anyone? I don't know about you, but their Words convicted and hurt me. Being a Christian is not about being the nicest, sweetest person, with a cherry on top. If it is then John the Baptist wouldn't have called anyone a brood of vipers. It's about Love and the Truth. If you love them, tell them the truth. Even if it hurts. We dont go around aiming to hurt others. We're to share the gospel and whole truth, not half a truth.
adaneth 3 years ago
You are disagreeing with what I'm saying.
I came from a background where women have no say in anything. Where they are forced into marriage and have no justice. Why would you assume that I never came from such a background? Just because I have a different perspective doesn't make me more or less likely to come from such a background. Just know that it is not a background, and equality issue. People want it to become an equality issue so they can have it their way.
adaneth 3 years ago
Yes, women are capable
of overseeing a church and preaching. That is NOT the issue. Are you saying this on your terms or on God's terms? YOURS I
suppose. Please don't cause people to stumble. The bible is crystal clear that woman should not hold authority postion over
men in the church. So I pray that people will follow what God says and not what you said. The bible is not written by you.
adaneth 3 years ago
After saying women should not teach men in the church, Paul said, "did the Word of God come from you?" I think that it is directly
written to people who always want to make excuses for women to be pastors or hold authority over men.
adaneth 3 years ago
the singing is really annoying.
About the film. You cannot make that argument that the verses to do apply to us, because the whole bible was written to people at different times. That doesn't make it not apply to us. Paul wrote letters to churches, but they all help us learn how to live the will of God and we need them. Even homosexuals say that Sodom and Gomorrah have nothing to do with homosexuality today. Or they try to find other verses to support their sin.
adaneth 3 years ago
The problem I see is that the references to homosexuality being sin are found in both the OT and the NT. The words of Jesus in Mt 19:4also indicates homosexuality is a perversion of God's original design.
However, we have cases as in the case of Deborah(who was a judge of Israel and a prophet who men went to for the word of God) in the OT which appears to contradict Paul's exhortations.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
Deborah was a prophetess (Judges 4:4). Deborah rose a mother in Israel, not a preacher (Judges 5:7). Judges 4:5 show the children of Israel coming to her for judgement, and according to 1 Corinthian 6:2 the saints shall judge the world, so since they came to her for judgment doesn't make her no preacher, that would mean all saints are preachers, common sense. If you got a problem and your wife tells you the best way to go about it, that doesn't make her a preacher, she just gave you advice.
kingfarrow 3 years ago
I guess that makes sense, depending on how you are defining a "preacher".
So would you say 2Timothy 4:2 only applies to pastors and such?
Seriously, this is very confusing to me and I admit I haven't studied it to any extent.
ThusFar777 3 years ago
Yet, we know that women were prophesying in the synagogues or even in Acts we see some examples... so they were nor really quiet.
Moreover, if deborah was a judge she held an authority as one unveiling the Law.
Moreover in 1 Cor. Paul speaks either of women or wives - the second one is more possible since he states if they want to learn ask they are to ask their husbands (he should be the first to lead wife in the knowledge of God). And he goes to saying it is according to the Law.
masterowa 3 years ago
And according to the Law wife was the one subjected to her husband - not to any other man. If in this context it is about marriage then 1 cor refers to the same situation.
The reason why it is shameful for a wife to ask questions in the church is the fact her husband ought to teach her on the first place (Eph. 5:26-27)
Declaring woman as mute in the church is taking away more than half of gift of the same spirit men have.
masterowa 3 years ago
Still, I DO NOT think women should be leaders/elders/deacons. It is clearly showed that these seats belonged to men. I think women should not have such authority. Nevertheless, under elders and the word of God they are to teach and counsel (Priscilla was helping in teaching Apollos).
But NEVER as elders and people on the highest seats.
masterowa 3 years ago
* I meant Prisca naturally - leftover from different language : P
masterowa 3 years ago
Awesom video! Thank you. Mark must be corrected in his theology.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
I don't know, on this one. But I do know that women speaking in the synagogue or the Temple prior to and during Jesus' life was a non-issue. Women weren't even allowed inside with the men for the reading of the Torah.
keenie25 3 years ago
Also, I mentioned American culture because egaletarianism is flooding this country. Woman now have most of the opportunities men have. However, when you take this culture change and try to apply it to church guidelines, as Paul wrote out , you're setting your church up for big problems. Churches need men to lead. It's the way God designed male and female roles. None are higher than the other but each have different roles in church. If the bible said any clearer you still wouldn't accept it.
mutumbo99 3 years ago
and i forgot to mention that fisherdawn basically says that because Paul's writings were only for a specific time, then half of the new testament is one big lie. i have never ever come across someone as skewed as you. i have nothing against women and neither does the bible, but it does have certain rules set up for the benefit of the church.
nhdmoff 3 years ago
your first two options show that you don't believe that the Bible is completely true which shows that you aren't really a true Christian. your 3rd point doesn't work either because you say that paul is lying. you are not credible at all. please anyone that is confused about this at all... don't listen to these lies.
nhdmoff 3 years ago
I bet this was made by a woman? Although I'm not taking sides on this issue, I do have to say that we must not try to work out explanations of scripture based on our own feelings or culture because then we start twisting the word or bypassing it completely. Paul had special revelation from the Holy Spirit on how to church should be modeled. American women have a hard time understanding and accepting this
mutumbo99 3 years ago
God has ordained the order of things in Scripture.God created the man first and then the woman.The Bible hasordained certain roles to men, to do otherwise would beto usurp the authority of God's ordination of man over woman.Women have very important roles to play in the Church,just not leadership roles or preaching roles.We can't pick and choose what we want to believe from the Bible in that case,let's just say that homosexuality is now ok because it is now "culturally" acceptable. It is absurd.
johe64 3 years ago
women have been annointed to God's service all through the Bible. It is a twisting of Scripture and heresy from Hell to tell women to shut up about salvation. Is it against God's Law for a woman to save a person from drowning? Neither is it against God's Law for a woman to deliver the Word of Life and deliver a soul from Hell. Apostle Paul wrote a whole half chapter on how women should dress while they were praying and prophesying. And he commended the female pastor, Phoebe Romans 16:1
waldenehn 3 years ago
that is not true friend. Romans 16:1 did not call her a pastor be honest it didnt
thamega77 3 years ago
No one is exempt from "preaching" the word. There are however limitations on who the Pastor or Elders should be. Women usually use the verse" there is no male or female...in Christ" to say that it is okay to be a Pastor.The funny thing is that we wouldn't have been having this discussion on both gender sides 150 + yrs ago. Dont speak your opinions based on the American culture but on Biblical truth.
mutumbo99 3 years ago
it amazing you say I speak opinion. which I clearly did not. Did Paul call her a pastor in Romans no it did not it said I commend unto you our Sister Phoebe. Before you talk look at the scripture. American culture please.
thamega77 3 years ago
Okay, both of us agree we need to look at scipture. First of all, Paul did commend Pheobe which YOU did call a female pastor. The argument here is that females shouldn't be pastors or elders. So you, probably being a woman, will try to find whatever loophole you can find to fit scripture with your opinion. I think women can be amazing teachers and I've seen amazing sisters who have preached well. Is it biblical for a woman to be the Pastor/Elder of a church? No. Do I like that guideline? No.
mutumbo99 3 years ago
what are you reading I'm a man I dont support women pastors preachers,elder,deaconess ect...
are you slow. Waldenehn made a comment about being Phoebe being a women pastor. I said Paul never called her that in Romans. Maybe these comment things is offline because my replies is not going where I type them
thamega77 3 years ago
well, I'm certainly not slow. But now I am confused at whom I was speaking with. I thought you were the one who said that Paul commended Pheobe as a pastor...sorry, I agree with your point of view. Hahaa, I think these comments are jumping around too. Okay, well I was referring to Waldenehn too.
mutumbo99 3 years ago
Oh, i just checked, you were right. I had even given you a thumbs up, haha. I have to get used to this.
mutumbo99 3 years ago
no harm friend all glory to the Most High God
HAHA!
thamega77 3 years ago
By the way, on your comment waldenehn, no man nor woman can deliver a person from hell. This is God's job. He is the author of salvation not us. it is okay to evangelize. But Paul gave instructions on how the church should be modeled. Men and women- just like the family- have God-Ordained roles.
mutumbo99 3 years ago
Paul was talking about no longer being a slave to sin. That is a very irresponsible way to "interpret" that verse. If Paul's writings were just for those churches at those times, then there is no point in having them around for the Church today. Please reexamine your hermeneutic.
revsader 3 years ago 2
amen
thamega77 3 years ago
The bible declares women can preach. From the pulpit or anywhere else. But it's the office of pastor/elder that God has reserved for the man according to scripture.
formeyousee 3 years ago
Light 487. I am not saying nor is the Bible that women are second class people. What is wrong is the secular thought has permated the Church to the point that we think the position as a leader is to be esteemed because of the power it gives someone. Nothing could be farther than the truth. The position of leadership should be esteemed because of the sacrifice it entails. Not because of the power that comes with it.
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago
I don't know what the right answer is to this question.. one thing I do know is that the state of the church in 2008 is abysmal and many "male" pastors and ministers do not deserve the title of pastor and minister, let alone the right to call themselves Christians.
Should women be allowed to preach? I don't see why not.. I am not seeing anyone here making a valid argument against women being preachers in today's fallen culture... I only see men arguing with women and amongst themselves.
light487 3 years ago
light487, go to 1 timothy2:12. There is no command for women to be pastor/teachers. Only men. If you look at the following context in which the mentioned verse is written it will become clear. Get a good commentary and some history books, they will help you solve this dilemma.
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago
did u even watch the clip? The only reason that was written was becuase many women were iliterate at that time. They would have preached wrong doctrine. Now there is no law saying women cant read or be educated!!
eskimogirl3 3 years ago
light487, go to 1 timothy2:12. There is no command for women to be pastor/teachers. Only men. If you look at the following context in which the mentioned verse is written it will become clear. Get a good commentary and some history books, they will help you solve this dilemma.
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago
light 487 you have made a great point that I agree with. The church is a six flags over Jesus right now. Some pastors are of the devil not sheperds of Gods flock. 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a women to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not decieved, but the women......" That is my argument. I beleive as a Christian the Bible is the standard to conduct church as well as personal life. continued........
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago 2
Galatians 5:1 when used in CONTEXT, speaks of the Law of Moses being a "yoke of bondage", not actual slavery. Actual slavery? Not around in America anymore, rules don't apply because they are made mute by the absence of slavery. Well guess what, women are still in the church, so THAT rule...applies.
JustinMc87 3 years ago
I find it intresting how you assume if I have a view of women not being a pastor or teacher with authority over men that you liken me to someone who is proslavery. That is a good cover I must admit.
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago
So you don't believe that all scripture is God breathed. That's your issue.
jakegwright 4 years ago
I absolutely believe that. too many here are falsely accusing me of not. I simply don't believe that it is "jakegwright" breathed or
"lawrenceofisrael" breathed, etc. I, too, have the Spirit of God in me and just as much right and responsibility as you to try to understand the Words He sent to us. I'm not accusing you of being a heretic simply because you understand the words and context differently. Please don't jump to that conclusion for me either.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
Let me guess fisher dawn, women in your view are oppressed because a male says he believes 1 Timothy 2:11-15. That women are to not have authority or teach a man.
GregShuttleworth 4 years ago
you're focusing on the wrong question. this is not about (for me) just whether or not I am able to pursue my gifts as a woman. It is about what women are able and willing to contribute to the Church at large and how greatly we weaken our combined efforts by holding back women who make up almost 2/3 the worldwide body of Christ. can we really afford to hold back that many who can offer so much? the Bible says we are to pray and ask God for more laborers because the harvest is GREAT!
fisherdawn 4 years ago
Every one wants to be a leader. Trouble is for a congegration of say 250 people you only need 1 pastor and around 30 small group leaders. You can't tell me a church can't find 1 man with leadership abilitys. One of the reason our society is crumbling is women think they need to be leaders instead of teaching our youth. There is nothing wrong with not being a pastor/teacher.
GregShuttleworth 4 years ago
Whilst it is certainly a scripture that deserves a cultural context, it does not open the door to that which is a common thread throughout the bible that 'leadership,(the government of Church), is undeniably male as the way God designed it'.I reckon my wife could do a better job that most male pastors as women are just more able and organised and have the same passions for serving God.Its just another of those things that we have to trust to Gods devine wisdom or risk disobedience.
katieganj 4 years ago
word. No slave were not always slaves for life, nor were they mistreated as a whole. They often loved their masters, and they were an intrical part of society. The word slave meant something very different to Paul than it does to us. So be careful of these examples you cite concerning context.
johnnyboyerickson 4 years ago
careful....you are on very tricky ground with words like that. you are sounding a little too close to those in churches who also defended slavery in pre-civil war US history. they used the Bible to back up their assertions, too. slavery is slavery. period. be careful not to twist history to fit a present day desire to hold back women from ministry.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
please explain to me what verses you use to substantiate your position. Correct herminutics and exegesis only please.
GregShuttleworth 4 years ago
just to start (because all the verses and Scriptures we can look to are too numerous to post in a couple of lines)....please watch my other video on "What the Bible Really Says About Women". still working on more videos as time allows...lots of ground to cover. The other video may not address your specific questions but is a good overall view of the Bible's true view of women. BTW....I am more than happy to debate and discuss, but you could drop the sarcasm...please.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
Sorry if the edge bothers you. I have debated this with others. I cannot figure out how one can profess to believe in infallabilty and say what you are saying. Explain to me your intrepretation of 1 Timothy 2.
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago
If it God wanted us to know that women should not preach then why didnt Jesus tell us that? Why didn't God's only righteous son who can tell no lies tell us that women should not preach??
eskimogirl3 3 years ago
He did - when he chose 12 men to be his apostles!
CrispiesJ 3 years ago 3
Back then women werent very learned... but that isnt an issue now
eskimogirl3 3 years ago
eskimo it has absolutely nothing to do with education - the Bible even says about some of the apsotles that they were NOT well educated. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but your statement misunderstands the issues completely. Do you honestly think education was a factor in who Jesus chose as leaders.
CrispiesJ 3 years ago 3
amen thats right glory hallelujah
thamega77 3 years ago
cut and paste me a personal message.
GregShuttleworth 3 years ago
Context is a very important point that we need never forget. Yes Paul wrote to a church with uneducated women usurping power and we need to remember this when reading and applying this scripture to our lives. But you go too far in saying since Paul is the only one to mention this idea it might be called into question. John's Revelation was unique and in many ways unlike anything foretold in Daniel, Thessalonian's or anything Jesus himself had taught on His return. Does this mean we question it?
johnnyboyerickson 4 years ago
so poor. Of course jesus had not to confirm this during his life time, nor the thora. YOu know why. I tell you. Have you ever hear of a biblical, female rabbi, no. Ever heard that women spoke in synagogue to men, no because no men talked to them out of fear for breaking a law. This was as well the case at jesus lifetimes. Paul preached to gentiles and they didnt know about g-dly civilisation. Got it??
LawrenceofIsrael 4 years ago
so, lawrenceofisrael, to you "g-dly" civilization means women should be silent? does that really make sense to you for Him to create women with a voice and then tell them NOT to use it for HIM?
fisherdawn 4 years ago
you have a completely false opinion of what i think my friend. See women can speak and they have to actually. But they are not equal to men in rights. they have the same value but not the same rights ( simple biology ). So g-d never changes right so if he says something to paul he will not change his opinion because society and modern values changes otherwise he wouldnt be g-d. The women shall cover her head when praying or speaking as prophet but shall not preach nor raise voice in community.
LawrenceofIsrael 4 years ago
lawrenceofisrael, it is clear we are on completely different pages. for you to say women are not equal to men in rights but they have the same value is completely contradictory. that is why segregation was finally seen here as inherently illegitimate. it is impossile for 2 things to be equal in value but not in rights. that makes them inherently unequal. I am sorry you do not understand the value He has placed on women.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
Of course you can have the same value but different rights. Ok let me show you an example. In the time of the kings of israel and even before that in the time of abraham it was every mans dream to beget a lot children. But g-d had not given this right to men but to women and at the same time for example in the torah it says that men can have more than one woman but woman cant.
LawrenceofIsrael 4 years ago
That is a false trichotomy. I have another option for you.
Everyone took what Paul clearly says as obvious and he was the only one who took the time to point this out. He testifies that this is the practice in all the churches of God.
How can you not see that the Bible clearly teaches that women can not preach.
Thank you for the logical fallacy.
AreYouKiddinMelol 4 years ago 2
Areyoukiddinmelol, though your words don't seem those of one who is open to truly listening to the other side I will make a small attempt at answering your comments. The actions of Jesus alone contradict your supposed "obvious" teaching that women shouldn't preach. After all, the first person He ever sent to spread the word of who He was (which is exactly what preaching is) was a woman...the woman at the well who went on to convert *many* in her town.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
parts of this video were just laughable...like taking galatians 5:1 the furthest out of context i may have ever seen a verse used...well done...and saying that paul's views on women in authority in the church were just for that church and that time frame...this would be exactly why he uses CREATION to back up his argument...he went just about as far outside of the authorial context as he could to defend his point...therefore his argument is not intended for only his current context...
echols66 4 years ago 2
echols66, so on what basis do you approve of the dismantling of the practice of slavery as its institution was often supported by the very same type of words from Paul you are still using to justify the limited role of women? Or do you still think we should be following those "commands" as well, that slaves should "obey their masters"?
fisherdawn 4 years ago
see, what you don't seem to understand is that Paul never set out to change the societal structures. Ever...you cannot find one instance in which he did so. Therefore he never gave a command to own or not to own slaves. Rather he set out to give commands of how each was to live as Christian. If youre a Christian and a slave, obey your master. If youre a slave owner and a Christian, start treating your slaves like brothers, not slaves.
echols66 4 years ago
so according to your theory, if societal structures change *on their own* as slavery did, then it is okay for the church to reflect those changes. just so long as it involves the freeing of certain races, but not including certain genders. btw, this newer debate about the historical form of slavery (heard it before) is just not accurate. Paul was not ignorant of how most slaves were treated. His words about there being no "Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free" shows his ultimate hope.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
Your reference in Galatians 3 MUST be read within the context of the text. He's speaking of salvation, not church leadership. Your "progressive theology" that states we have progressed beyond the teachings of the bible doesnt work. You're dealing with skirting issues and trying to do so by dragging Driscoll into this as well. If you really did your homework you would know that even some complimentarians call him liberal for having women deacons in his church...
echols66 4 years ago 2
also, if you really looked at Paul's argument in 1 Timothy on women in leadership you would know that the egalitarian position does not hold water. the only argument against that text is that paul's argument is cultural. He points back to the creative order, which is well beyond any culture Paul was in.
echols66 4 years ago
you are also very much so distorting the view of complimentarianism by pulling out the most rash quotes (even out of context) against women. Complimentarianism lifts women up as equal to men but they serve a different purpose. My left hand and my right hand are equal. I would be screwed if i had two left hands or two right hands. However, each hand has a different role and each hand is necessary for my life to function the way it is intended.
echols66 4 years ago
funny how some people are dominant left hand and others right. I guess you would deem those who are left handed out of order and akin to feminists for usurping the role of the normally dominant right hand. crazy left handers should just stay in their place and accept their role as "equal but different", right?
fisherdawn 4 years ago
wow....you just completely missed the point that i was making.....amazing....i can only hope that you dont read the entire Bible the way you just read my posts...
echols66 4 years ago
didn't miss the point, echols66, just wanted to point out that you, too, have to be careful using examples to back up your view. we all have a filter...no one reads the Bible without preconceived ideas. we should all always be on the alert for what our filters are causing us to miss and misinterpret. I simply think you should look hard at what assumptions you make.
fisherdawn 4 years ago
no, i was careful in choosing my example...even those who are left dominant (or right dominant) they need their non-dominant hand to function normally. I will say that I am cross-dominant and therefore show the completeness of said example. I agree with the fact that we all have lenses in which we read the bible through...therefore we must look at the whole of historical Christianity in order to obtain the best viewpoint in which to interpret the Scriptures
echols66 4 years ago
So fisherdawn, what is wrong with not being a pastor/ teacher? That is the question. And why would Paul make such a statement to Timothy?
GregShuttleworth 4 years ago
Paul gave his commands to the Church, they were never meant to judge or regulate the world (see 1 Cor. 5 on world vs. church in Paul's eyes). Also, if you were to do more studying into the historical form of slavery, it was much closer to employment of today than slavery of 200 years ago, though there are exceptions.
echols66 4 years ago
If Paul's writing against women teaching in the church is only for a SPECIFIC church, time, cultures etc. then we can dismiss 51% of the New Testament (that which Paul wrote) as having ANYTHING to say to us under the assertion that everything he said was SPECIFIC church, time, cultures etc. including what he has to say about homosexuality - which Jesus never said anything about. The assertion that Paul didn't know his writing s would be read abroad is a LIE! Read 2 Peter 3:15-16
Rikfleming 4 years ago
careful, rikfleming, the issue of homosex. is clearly apples to oranges in the Bible. It is without equivocation called a "sin". Please show me anywhere in scriptures it is actually called a "sin" for a woman to speak or preach. any scholar can tell you there are parts of the Bible that were meant for a specific time and place...the debate is not if there are different types of commands, but over which ones will be interpreted that way and by whom.
fisherdawn 4 years ago