@gizliliman1 Permaculture means "permanent culture". It can apply to all areas of our life: agriculture, architecture, building, city planning etc. I'm currently working on a form of permaculture economics.
Biointensive farming is a form of farming and can be a part of permaculture.
@slcdan who said we need fossil fuels. Every building is a potential powerplant, it presents massive surface area to sun and wind and its foundation can tap geothermal sources. I did a project recently to see how much energy NYC could generate if it had just a few turbines on every building. It could meet its power needs multiple times over, and thats just wind.
@hablerz I hardly think that constitutes a difficult problem to solve. Insulation or ear muffs would both do the trick. Plus I don't envision big mills. I think the future of windpower will be with the invention of a cheap compact model like the current 'Helix' line. That's what prevents us from outfitting buildings like this, unit cost. Altho Helix still needs to work on cost, they are certainly not noisy.
True food security will come from a diverse network of integrated organic farming systems that mimic nature's patterns including (but not limited to): GrowBiointensive, Biodynamic, Permaculture, Holistic Range Management (eg Joel Salatin's Polyface Farm), Indoor Farming in cold climates (eg Eliot Coleman's Four Season Farm) & integrated aquavegeculture systems. To say that only indoor farming & aquaponics, with their high infrastructure costs, will feed our massive population is science fiction.
@AndrewHarwell Good thing there are some people interested in 'science fiction', cuz otherwise we'd be having this conversation over telegraph.
You wanna change my mind explain how mechanized harvest is achieved in an ecologically diverse garden set up? You'd need much more advanced machines then we currently have. If you can't answer that then all you have is a bunch of very progressive sounding terminology.
@madscirat The "progressive sounding terminology" is based on people who have been creating real positive change in farming for over 30 years. GROWBIOINTENSIVE produces yields 2-6 times that of conventional ag. How about creating your own video to promote your indoor farming & aquaponics ideas, rather than writing negative comments about other people's positive work? Instead of calling our work a "fallacy" and us "hippies", get your hands dirty growing food and share your experience.
@AndrewHarwell Im still waiting for anyone to address the problem of mechanization. Even if you have incredible yields, if you are growing a diverse crop, harvest is going to kill you on your profit. I have done videos on the topic of indoor ag. and I have lived on an organic farm so lighten up on your assumptions lest you be proven non-psychic. Also if you think proving negativity is equivalent to proving incorrect, you are a hippie, sorry man.
@madscirat I work on a small scale, so Im not focused on mechanization. I hope to foster what I saw in Cuba, where they made a huge transition to Organic ag. (on rural & urban land) b/c of the loss of inputs and fuel when USSR collapsed. With peak oil here or on the way, everyone on Earth will have to have to make the shift to being more connected to the source of their food. Less than 1% of US population works in ag. so we need more people in urban and rural areas growing food.
@AndrewHarwell Smallscale definitly works with biointensive methods, no argument there. We should all tear up our lawns and uproot our exotic ornamentals and replace them with edible gardens and forests IMO. The problem is that most people wont and many can't, many don't have lawns to tear up. For them we need indoor mass scale methods. These methods can go round for round with totalitarian agriculture in the free market and they will provide valuable jobs to the decaying urban centers
Fallacy of organic farming: Applying ecological principles to monocultures.
Growing 1-3 species is not and will never be ecological. It will always be hard work or technology bc/ it is a low entropy configuration and requires energy to remain as such. Hi diversity farms on the otherhand rule out mechanization and can not feed our massive population.
The answer: indoor farming and aquaponics. Look it up, this is the future of food, not hippies and compost.
@madscirat I am not against hydroponics and such, I think these would be beneficial for urban rooftop farms, pumps could run on solar, and it would be better than transporting produce into the city by truck everyday, and fresher. but this cannot replace the farm. what about Cattle? Chickens? Fruit trees? Grain? sorry these wont do well indoors. for that you need a self sustained loop, and the best method is Permaculture , compost required, Hippies are optional,
- Permaculture is great, but it fails in one big way, it has bad PR, generally speaking, its viewed by most Americans as some "hippie" movement, but in reality its very scientific, its about getting the most out with the least amount of effort in, in a way that is self sustainable. its those new age sounding words they use. "Harmony, Balance, Healing the Earth" etc. that throw some people for a loop. permaculture has proved effective all over the world, irregardless of religion, or culture.
@gilgamesh1962 True nuff. Still permaculture is not mass production. If you go perma you do much to prevent mass mechanized harvest. If you go mass mechanized you neccesitate monoculture and all its ailments.
Personally Im not worried. Beef, dairy, poultry and gluten are all bad for you anyway, and we'd be healthier if we got rid of them. As for trees, if people want them they should get rid of their damned ornamental shrubberies and lawns and grow some. Taint to difficult if u go by zone
@madscirat I do not think one solution will fit all. In major metropolitan cities, things like Hydro/Aero ponics etc. would be best bet. in Suburbs, we can start getting into a mix, of Permie and Hydro depending on how much real estate is available to the individual, in rural areas Agroforestry, / Permaculture techniques can be applied. the focus should be to keep everything as self contained and sustainable as possible, with as little use of fossil fuel transport as possible.
@gilgamesh1962 That sounds good, but how can a permaculture farm compete with a farm that uses monoculture, sprays and mechanized harvest. People might grow food themselves in this way, but its hard to imagine doing it for profit. A good example is the forest garden. This is a brilliant concept. It takes true advantage of ecological principles and its focused on perenials which decreases labor. But still you'd be hard pressed to make $ with one bc/ its diversity prevents mechanization.
@madscirat hard to get into all the details here (limited space), but part of the philosophy of PermC. is to get the maximum out for the minimum input. a great Documentary is "Food Inc." permaculture and/or Agroforestry ( food forests ) etc are very productive, Nitrogen producing tree grow along fruit trees, so no fertilizer is needed, swells are made to collect water so no pumps, or irrigation is required. in a world of rising fuel, the US cannot afford to stay under the current system for long
@gilgamesh1962 I'm aware of the methodology and its advantages. However, permC will not fit into the modern market. People can choose to live in agriforests and plant gardens instead of lawns (Im currently in the process of tearing up my lawn as we speak for this purpose). Otherwise the logistics of mass harvesting and distribution simply doesn't work. Remember you're competing with farms that are growing thousand acre crops of one species.
@madscirat I understand, frankly my concerns are that the US only produces 30% or less of its oil. and we are at the mercy of OPEC nations, I believe we have reached Peak Oil, and slowly but surely, prices will continue to go up, and our petroleum based agriculture ( and the people ) will suffer greatly. Prices for locally grown organic produce has come down a lot in price and some is at almost the same price as store bought. as fuel prices continue to rise, locally grown will actually be -
- Cheaper than store bought. at the moment major chain stores like "Whole Earth Market" are doing very well, not because they are cheaper, but because peoples concerns for chemicals, and health. so locally grown has one edge, and they are gaining ground and eventually have economic edge also. of course things could not remain the same in America if we start transitioning to locally grown. a perfect example is what happened in Cuba, search: "The Power of Community" this was out of necessity.
@madscirat Some "experts" predict that if Oil gets excessive expensive that traditional agriculture could probably only sustain, 1/2 of the worlds population. I am not that pessimistic , I believe that if people wait till its too late, that might be true.
please tell me about your project, what are you planning to plant, system etc?
@gilgamesh1962 It would be kind of annoying walking underneath an urban farm only to get covered in compost or chicken poop every time the wind blows.
I would love to have more information. books etc. i am starting a seed collection for next year to plant. please give me some infomration on where to go or where i can get some either free or cheap books or ebooks or something . i would be very greatful. i have a family of 7 to feed and would like to be able to give some away too :)
Permaculture is biodiversity in a food forest, however biointensity is gardening in compost.
Helioforge 1 year ago
what is the diffrence between permacultur and biointensive farming.
gizliliman1 1 year ago
@gizliliman1 Permaculture means "permanent culture". It can apply to all areas of our life: agriculture, architecture, building, city planning etc. I'm currently working on a form of permaculture economics.
Biointensive farming is a form of farming and can be a part of permaculture.
cyrusp100 1 year ago
indoor?
so instead of taking natural sunlight, you will use man made light, powered largely by fossil fuels?
that is just false.
slcdan 1 year ago
@slcdan who said we need fossil fuels. Every building is a potential powerplant, it presents massive surface area to sun and wind and its foundation can tap geothermal sources. I did a project recently to see how much energy NYC could generate if it had just a few turbines on every building. It could meet its power needs multiple times over, and thats just wind.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat You cant put wind plants on the top of most buildings as they make too much noise.
hablerz 1 year ago
@hablerz If something as petty as noisiness is going to prevent us from embracing green power than we are truly and rightly fucked, pardon my french
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat the noise issue is not so important during the day , but its not petty at night when it can disrupt ppls sleep unfortunately.
hablerz 1 year ago
@hablerz I hardly think that constitutes a difficult problem to solve. Insulation or ear muffs would both do the trick. Plus I don't envision big mills. I think the future of windpower will be with the invention of a cheap compact model like the current 'Helix' line. That's what prevents us from outfitting buildings like this, unit cost. Altho Helix still needs to work on cost, they are certainly not noisy.
madscirat 1 year ago
@hablerz Feel free to rebuttal but this is getting off topic and I don't wanna clutter the comments section so I won't respond, no offense meant.
madscirat 1 year ago
True food security will come from a diverse network of integrated organic farming systems that mimic nature's patterns including (but not limited to): GrowBiointensive, Biodynamic, Permaculture, Holistic Range Management (eg Joel Salatin's Polyface Farm), Indoor Farming in cold climates (eg Eliot Coleman's Four Season Farm) & integrated aquavegeculture systems. To say that only indoor farming & aquaponics, with their high infrastructure costs, will feed our massive population is science fiction.
AndrewHarwell 2 years ago
@AndrewHarwell here here!
fred5399 1 year ago
@AndrewHarwell Good thing there are some people interested in 'science fiction', cuz otherwise we'd be having this conversation over telegraph.
You wanna change my mind explain how mechanized harvest is achieved in an ecologically diverse garden set up? You'd need much more advanced machines then we currently have. If you can't answer that then all you have is a bunch of very progressive sounding terminology.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat The "progressive sounding terminology" is based on people who have been creating real positive change in farming for over 30 years. GROWBIOINTENSIVE produces yields 2-6 times that of conventional ag. How about creating your own video to promote your indoor farming & aquaponics ideas, rather than writing negative comments about other people's positive work? Instead of calling our work a "fallacy" and us "hippies", get your hands dirty growing food and share your experience.
AndrewHarwell 1 year ago
@AndrewHarwell Im still waiting for anyone to address the problem of mechanization. Even if you have incredible yields, if you are growing a diverse crop, harvest is going to kill you on your profit. I have done videos on the topic of indoor ag. and I have lived on an organic farm so lighten up on your assumptions lest you be proven non-psychic. Also if you think proving negativity is equivalent to proving incorrect, you are a hippie, sorry man.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat I work on a small scale, so Im not focused on mechanization. I hope to foster what I saw in Cuba, where they made a huge transition to Organic ag. (on rural & urban land) b/c of the loss of inputs and fuel when USSR collapsed. With peak oil here or on the way, everyone on Earth will have to have to make the shift to being more connected to the source of their food. Less than 1% of US population works in ag. so we need more people in urban and rural areas growing food.
AndrewHarwell 1 year ago
@AndrewHarwell Smallscale definitly works with biointensive methods, no argument there. We should all tear up our lawns and uproot our exotic ornamentals and replace them with edible gardens and forests IMO. The problem is that most people wont and many can't, many don't have lawns to tear up. For them we need indoor mass scale methods. These methods can go round for round with totalitarian agriculture in the free market and they will provide valuable jobs to the decaying urban centers
madscirat 1 year ago
Fallacy of organic farming: Applying ecological principles to monocultures.
Growing 1-3 species is not and will never be ecological. It will always be hard work or technology bc/ it is a low entropy configuration and requires energy to remain as such. Hi diversity farms on the otherhand rule out mechanization and can not feed our massive population.
The answer: indoor farming and aquaponics. Look it up, this is the future of food, not hippies and compost.
madscirat 2 years ago
@madscirat I am not against hydroponics and such, I think these would be beneficial for urban rooftop farms, pumps could run on solar, and it would be better than transporting produce into the city by truck everyday, and fresher. but this cannot replace the farm. what about Cattle? Chickens? Fruit trees? Grain? sorry these wont do well indoors. for that you need a self sustained loop, and the best method is Permaculture , compost required, Hippies are optional,
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
- Permaculture is great, but it fails in one big way, it has bad PR, generally speaking, its viewed by most Americans as some "hippie" movement, but in reality its very scientific, its about getting the most out with the least amount of effort in, in a way that is self sustainable. its those new age sounding words they use. "Harmony, Balance, Healing the Earth" etc. that throw some people for a loop. permaculture has proved effective all over the world, irregardless of religion, or culture.
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
@gilgamesh1962 True nuff. Still permaculture is not mass production. If you go perma you do much to prevent mass mechanized harvest. If you go mass mechanized you neccesitate monoculture and all its ailments.
Personally Im not worried. Beef, dairy, poultry and gluten are all bad for you anyway, and we'd be healthier if we got rid of them. As for trees, if people want them they should get rid of their damned ornamental shrubberies and lawns and grow some. Taint to difficult if u go by zone
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat I do not think one solution will fit all. In major metropolitan cities, things like Hydro/Aero ponics etc. would be best bet. in Suburbs, we can start getting into a mix, of Permie and Hydro depending on how much real estate is available to the individual, in rural areas Agroforestry, / Permaculture techniques can be applied. the focus should be to keep everything as self contained and sustainable as possible, with as little use of fossil fuel transport as possible.
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
@gilgamesh1962 That sounds good, but how can a permaculture farm compete with a farm that uses monoculture, sprays and mechanized harvest. People might grow food themselves in this way, but its hard to imagine doing it for profit. A good example is the forest garden. This is a brilliant concept. It takes true advantage of ecological principles and its focused on perenials which decreases labor. But still you'd be hard pressed to make $ with one bc/ its diversity prevents mechanization.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat hard to get into all the details here (limited space), but part of the philosophy of PermC. is to get the maximum out for the minimum input. a great Documentary is "Food Inc." permaculture and/or Agroforestry ( food forests ) etc are very productive, Nitrogen producing tree grow along fruit trees, so no fertilizer is needed, swells are made to collect water so no pumps, or irrigation is required. in a world of rising fuel, the US cannot afford to stay under the current system for long
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
@gilgamesh1962 I'm aware of the methodology and its advantages. However, permC will not fit into the modern market. People can choose to live in agriforests and plant gardens instead of lawns (Im currently in the process of tearing up my lawn as we speak for this purpose). Otherwise the logistics of mass harvesting and distribution simply doesn't work. Remember you're competing with farms that are growing thousand acre crops of one species.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat I understand, frankly my concerns are that the US only produces 30% or less of its oil. and we are at the mercy of OPEC nations, I believe we have reached Peak Oil, and slowly but surely, prices will continue to go up, and our petroleum based agriculture ( and the people ) will suffer greatly. Prices for locally grown organic produce has come down a lot in price and some is at almost the same price as store bought. as fuel prices continue to rise, locally grown will actually be -
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
- Cheaper than store bought. at the moment major chain stores like "Whole Earth Market" are doing very well, not because they are cheaper, but because peoples concerns for chemicals, and health. so locally grown has one edge, and they are gaining ground and eventually have economic edge also. of course things could not remain the same in America if we start transitioning to locally grown. a perfect example is what happened in Cuba, search: "The Power of Community" this was out of necessity.
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
@madscirat Some "experts" predict that if Oil gets excessive expensive that traditional agriculture could probably only sustain, 1/2 of the worlds population. I am not that pessimistic , I believe that if people wait till its too late, that might be true.
please tell me about your project, what are you planning to plant, system etc?
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
@gilgamesh1962 It would be kind of annoying walking underneath an urban farm only to get covered in compost or chicken poop every time the wind blows.
hablerz 1 year ago
@hablerz Lol, I do not think that Urban hydroponic will take away the job of the pigeons.
after all , an organic operation would not waste a precious resource like chicken poop.
gilgamesh1962 1 year ago
I would love to have more information. books etc. i am starting a seed collection for next year to plant. please give me some infomration on where to go or where i can get some either free or cheap books or ebooks or something . i would be very greatful. i have a family of 7 to feed and would like to be able to give some away too :)
niffer58 2 years ago