Mark Gungor sample

[AtheistToothFairy]

How can someone so very WISE about Human-Nature, be so UN-wise and believe in a 2000 year old superstition about a bible based unevidenced 'god'?

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Where do you think he got the ideas?

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful

I give up....WHERE?

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy The Bible says that if you Love God you will keep his commandments; this is unconditional Love demanding a conditional relationship. I am by no means an expert, but the Bible has helped me through a lot of relationship problems when I took the time to look.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"Bible says that if you Love God you will keep his commandments"

Don't you realize that your god has SET YOU GUYS UP?

It's totally impossible not to break one of gods MANY MANY rules, and thus be guilty of 'sin' in god's eyes.

This is like making a law to your goldfish that it's wrong for it to get wet.

i.e. It's our NATURE and who gave us that NATURE, but your own god.

How many clergy have been found guilty of CRIMES, yet they have this HS inside them?

It's all BS

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy That's why Jesus did what we could not do. God is all knowing; that's how he could judge every man by Adam's sin. He knew what we would do, but he decided to Love us anyway. You have the scripture backwards by the way. It's if you Love you'll keep the commandments not vice versa. If you purposefully but others before yourself by being patient and kind, you will always keep God's commandments.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"God is all knowing"

Really?

1. So if god is all knowing, then when he set out to make our universe and us, he KNEW in advance what a disaster (in god's opinion) he was creating, right?

2. If god knows the future, then god is powerless to change the future, even his own future actions.

Ponder that one!

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy You're assuming the future is set. God being all knowing simply means he knows what actions will cause what. If you think God made a disaster than humans are the disasters, yet I don't see people volunteering to lose there humanity. OUR choice made these disasters and yes God knew it, but he still wanted to Love us. You need to ask yourself: do you want to believe in a world where you are, Loved have purpose, and are valuable or to eat and drink for tomorrow we die?

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"You're assuming the future is set"

From the human perspective, the future is not set, for we can't possible 'see' the future, except by blind speculation.

However, most theists say god knows the future, and if he does, then that future is FIXED and can't be changed, thus wiping out our 'free will', which of course would be just a mere illusion.

So then what, sin causes earthquakes and tornadoes?

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Knowing the future is not the same as the future being set. I can know that you are going to choose your favorite flavor when ordering ice cream but that doesn't mean that I fixed that. In a sense OUR sin caused natural disasters but not directly as some fanatics believe. Sin severed God's life from sustaining the earth so because of that the earth is slowly dying; this causes natural disasters. God isn't punishing mankind because women are dressing provocatively.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"I can know that you are going to choose your favorite flavor when ordering ice cream but that doesn't mean that I fixed that"

Actually, you can never *KNOW* 100% that I would pick my favorite flavor of ice cream, although you might win such a bet most of the time.

The difference is that you don't actually know the future, but can GUESS the most likely outcome of something.

God KNOWS the entire future, in every detail, thus cancelling out our 'Free Will'

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy I was using an example with the ice cream analogy, but you can't just make the leap from knowing the future to cancelling free will. It is just as likely that God just knows what you're going to do. You are still making the choice. God can still have His will done for sure, but he doesn't need to usurp your will.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"It is just as likely that God just knows what you're going to do. You are still making the choice"

What this means is that BEFORE god created me, he knew every detail of what I would do thruout my entire life, yet this sadistic being decided to create me anyway, knowing he would torture me in hell one day.

Tell me again how it is that I have 'free will'?

BTW, can god see his own future, and if so, can he then change that future?

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Well your not dead yet. I have a better question for you: is it better to burn in hell or not exist?God is giving you the opportunity now at any rate, so why are you blaming him? God didn't create you to not be able to believe in Him. Free will is just that being able to choose. Your going in circles now. First God is bad because you don't have free will; now he's bad because you have free will. ???

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"is it better to burn in hell or not exist?"

You can NOT be serious with such an inane question?

Before I existed I sure as hell "didn't miss me much", now did I?

True Free Will, would mean that I can choose to believe in the things I wish to, including any god I wish to (or NOT wish to), without facing this threat of eternal torment by some invisible sky-daddy.

If your god is so 'all knowing', then why did he screw up in making so MANY who's destiny is to FRY, hmmmm

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful,

One more thing:

Before you use the standard apologetic that "god didn't want robots", realize that to god we already ARE ROBOTS, for knowing what we'll do next is no different to a god, then what any PROGRAMMED robot would do in a human’s perspective.

Ponder that one, m'kay

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Your destiny is decided by no one but you my friend. God didn't force you to do anything so stop trying to blame him for your decisions. Your idea of true free will is quite the pie-dream. Your idea of free will is you being God wishing your own truth into existence and somehow being free without being made free. For someone who doesn't believe in God your quite aggressive about claims of his immorality. Your not even sure if your free of not. Face it you just don't WANT a God

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"Your destiny is decided by no one but you my friend"

See, you ASSUME that we have total free will to be anything we wish to be, to make any choice we wish to make.

What you fail to realize is that much of who we are comes from 2 sources.

1. Our genes.

2. Our upbringing and previous life experiences.

So we really don't have complete free will.

IF god made us, then he supplied our DNA and thus much of our character, so it IS your god's FAULT, but you’ll deny this!

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Yeah because you yourself said that our upbringing affects us so you don't by into genetics that much. Free will is not by definition being able to do whatever you want to do; that's being God. Think about it; everyone couldn't do whatever they wanted because then people's wills would collide. Your definition self destructs. I believe that we are independent spirit beings. You don't even begin to comprehend how free you are to choose God. You have to forcefully reject Him.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"Yeah because you yourself said that our upbringing affects us so you don't by into genetics that much"

Actually, you're putting words in my mouth here.

I tend to believe that the choices we make in life are HALF from our genes and half from previous experiences we've had.

So, fully half of what we'll do was god's FAULT!

"You don't even begin to comprehend how free you are to choose God"

I can't choose that which doesn't exist.

Read "THE GOD VIRUS", ASAP!!!

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Nice argument (read a book about an argument I can't make.) You are all over the place. "I can't choose that which doesn't exist. Then you say that half of it is God's fault. Which is it? You really need to learn the role of genetics if you think half our decisions are from it. Genetics hardly plays a role in decision making. Your spirit,(which you didn't address), is independent of your conditioning so that you would still want Love and feel like you need God no matter what.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"Genetics hardly plays a role in decision making"

You couldn't be more WRONG here!

e.g. There is a gene that controls whether broccoli will taste bitter to a person or not. Those who find it taste bitter don't like it, while those who lack this trait tend to enjoy this veggie.

Do you really think your propensity towards or against a 'thing', has nothing to do with your genetic makeup?

No, god isn't real, but I can argue from within YOUR context that he does, at times.

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy No you can't! You can't hold that someone doesn't exist and then say he does something. You were just trying to blow off a free will argument. I was specifically talking about genetics in decision making. I don't think eternity has a thing to do with broccoli. Again the concept of self (spirit) allows equal opportunity for belief in spite of upbringing. There have been people who have had bad experiences with church; some become atheists and some strong Christians. You're free

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"You can't hold that someone doesn't exist and then say he does something"

Look, how many times do we atheists have to explain this debating concept to you xtians?

I can argue from WITHIN the context of the bible's dogma OR from outside of it, the former making the assumption your god is real, the latter asserting that your god isn't real.

IF we ASSUME your god is real, then it's HIS FAULT, for he supplied our genes. If no god exists, then evolution was the culprit

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy No you can't. You weren't debating two topics when you ignored my free will argument. You were supporting an argument against free will (morality) by appealing to existence. Two separate concepts.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"I don't think eternity has a thing to do with broccoli"

And once again, you show your confinement to the bible's dogma.

Clearly, if genes control our taste buds and thus what foods we enjoy or hate, then why would you posit that they don't control other things we would like to do or to shun?

Do you think your mind alone is responsible for your sex drive?

What determines which mates you like and which gender?

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Conditioning, but you are making an assumption that is unfounded when you say it changes moral truth. none of what you have stated is related to knowing God exists. Relevance?

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:" but you are making an assumption that is unfounded when you say it changes moral truth"

Ah, you want a connection, do you.

The bible forbids many actions/desires that man naturally has, especially in the area of sexual things (which the churches prey upon to instill GUILT and REMORSE etc).

How can a god send someone to hell if their genes resulted in their BRAINS being wired to demand evidence to believe a thing, rather then believe on just mere Faith alone?

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"none of what you have stated is related to knowing God exists"

The problem here is that you Theists are satisfied in believing on mere Faith alone and you don't require the same quality of evidence for YOUR god's existence, as you would for something else that was equally inane in your reality.

e.g. You would easily dismiss my invisible garage dwelling fire breathing dragon, now wouldn't you?

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy You are assuming there is no evidence. That's just an excuse. Intelligent design theory is absolutely revolutionizing science, but we could debate that FOREVER. I'M DONE. NEITHER OF US IS GOING TO BUDGE OBVIOUSLY SO I'M GOING TO LEAVE THINGS HERE. Side note: I hope I haven't offended you in anyway and I hope you have a merry Christmas. It was fun. Seriously i enjoyed it!

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"You are assuming there is no evidence"

No, actually I'm pretty darn sure you guys have NO EVIDENCE!

Oh and (non)-intelligent design is pseudo-science, at it's best.

The likes of people such as Ben Stein and those in Dover PA who fought for IE, are not only ignorant of the ToE, but liars and cheats as well, and were SHOWN to be such!

You're right, you have ZERO chance of budging me until you come up with OBJECTIVE CREDIBLE evidence for you god/jesus, which you can't

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy Have you even looked at the historical EVIDENCE? You're an idiot who doesn't care about risking eternity. You ignore objective moral law (which you hold very strongly) that is nonexistent without God. And you haven't even taken a real look at intelligent design theory which seemed enough for Antony Flew who is certainly more intelligent than you. God Loves you but my patience is thin. This is my real FINAL COMMENT. So curse me all you want but you're blatantly wrong.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful

There is no objective moral law. This is an ASSumption on YOUR part only.

Intelligent design is indeed something I’ve looked into, MANY times in fact, and it totally FAILS to impress anyone with a thinking brain.

Flew at best is a DEIST, which is a far cry from your position of Theist.

He also "lost his marbles" in his advanced age, but so what?

Saying that YOUR pretend ‘god loves me’ is no more valid than my saying Thor or Isis loves you.

[EVSjahms]

@AtheistToothFairy You seem to be saying that it's absolutely wrong to believe in an absolute moral law- which is self-defeating. How can you trust your "thinking brain" apart from inteligent design. The alternative is that it's an accidental assembly responding only according to preset chemical/ natural reactions. It only seems reasonable to trust your "thinking brain" if it was specifically assembled to experience this world accurately.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@EVSjahms:"You seem to be saying that it's absolutely wrong to believe in an absolute moral law- which is self-defeating"

"Self defeating"...HOW SO?

BTW, you need to read the book that Mike Shermer wrote on 'good and evil' to see where our morals actually come from.

They did NOT come from some god, nor are they objective, but mostly SUBJECTIVE

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"Your spirit,(which you didn't address), is independent of your conditioning"

Sorry, but I have found ZERO evidence that we have some 'soul' inside us.

Best as science can demonstrate, and in MANY FORMS, our brain is US.

[blamtasticful]

@AtheistToothFairy What causes people to think of the same things throughout history? If we are our brains then why can't people think of anything new on these philosophical debates? Because there is a moral law which transcends us that we could only understand through our spirits. Also if you don't have a soul then you don't really exist because your cells replace themselves and our brains our limited and quite similar. If that is true than forget about God because nothing that we do has worth.

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"What causes people to think of the same things throughout history? If we are our brains then why can't people think of anything new on these philosophical debates?"

1. Which same things?

Human nature doesn't change all that much.

2. Think of what kind of "NEW" things?

3. My cells replace themselves with COPIES, so I'm still ME. Is that a problem for you or something?

[AtheistToothFairy]

@blamtasticful:"Face it you just don't WANT a God"

One thing is for SURE. I wouldn't want the god represented in your bible, or any holy book man has written.

NONE of those gods behave as a god SHOULD behave and I'd be the first to FIRE their sorry ass, if I were their boss!

[littlegiant1972]

agree 100% specially about the teens

[mabdaa]

gooooooooood