A Way To Counter the Schielhau With a Schnappen

[Andrhens]

Is it possible to use the schnappen from a hard bind or from Kron? Let me give you an example, both fighters assume langenort and enter the bind. Sensing that the opponent is controling the central line, the agent closes the distance (am schwert) and performs schnappen. Is that appropriate?

Sorry for any english mistakes. Keep up with the good work!

[Schlachtschule]

@Andrhens I am coming to see the Schanppen as a universal action, meaning that it can be used in almost any bind without that being a made-up modern technique of the sort we should avoid. But why would you both assume Langenort and then enter close range? You should enter close range with an attack, never just by moving in. Does that make sense? And your English is great!

[Andrhens]

@Schlachtschule Indeed, it makes sense. Thank you!

[Schlachtschule]

@Andrhens You're very welcome.

[MrOttmandus]

awesome

[Schlachtschule]

@MrOttmandus Thank you. I confess I'm kind of tickled at having figured this out because it's a very cool technique. The truth is that we're coming to see that the Schnappen is a tremendously universal technique--it can counter a displacement, a Duplieren, the Schielhau, all sorts of things.

[airnt]

isn't the schielhau supposed to impact with the short edge, as opposed to binding with the long edge and then cutting from the bind with the short edge to the neck?



[Schlachtschule]

@airnt That's exactly right. But you will contact your opponent's sword as you are rotating over, so it may *look* as though you're binding first, then cutting when done in slow motion.

[Schlachtschule]

@Schlachtschule Actually, I should have said that he will impact *your* sword, which is exactly what the video shows.

[airnt]

@Schlachtschule no, i meant te manual states you impact your short edge on his flat, really, and that can be done in one, ending up stabbing him in the shoulder, as described in ringeck. it really is quite clear in the original german text.

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt That's not at all what Ringeck says: “wan er dir eben ein hawet von siner rechten sytten, so haw och von dener rechten sytten mit der kurtzen schnyden mit vff gerechten armen gen sinen hawe jn die schwech sines schwerts vnd schlag jn vff sinen rechten achsel.”

“If he attacks you from his right side, strike from your right side with the short edge and extended arms against the weak of his sword and hit him on the right shoulder.” Ringeck ff. 31r-v

See? Nothing about a thrust.

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt Moreover, when you look at the illustrations for these cuts you see that you're not actually hitting his sword, that's just where his sword is impacting--your short edge is turned over (since that's the part that's going to be hitting his neck). Look at folio 5v of the Glasgow Fechtbuch: You can see a Schielhau there. It's obviously a cut with the short edge, and the text says so, too.

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt Moreover, when you look at the illustrations for these cuts you see that you're not actually hitting his sword, that's just where his sword is impacting--your short edge is turned over (since that's the part that's going to be hitting his neck). Look at folio 5v of the Glasgow Fechtbuch: You can see a Schielhau there. It's obviously a cut with the short edge, and the text says so, too. Also, look at von Danzig fol. 23v; he says it's a cut done with the sword reversed, not a thrust.

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt Now, there are techniques done as thrusts from a Schielhau, such as the counter to Langenort, where you bind against your opponent's blade with a Schielhau then thrust, but the text is explicit that this is a thrust: "vnd haw starck mit der kurtzen schnyden vff sin schwert, vnd schuß im den ort." "strike strongly against his sword with the short edge and "shoot" [thrust] your point against his throat." Ringeck fol. 32r. So we know how he writes about a thrust--it's very clear.

[airnt]

@Schlachtschule I tend to do the Schielhau with the thumb on the blade (which the text wasn't so specific about but doesn't deny and is shown in later manuscript pictures) in almost a vertical version of the (horizontal) zwerchhau, but to the side a little, so that said thrusts can be done from a strike (like thrusts are described from the zornhau just the same, which also is a strike). If this is done the technique you suppose would need different timing and be much harder to perform.

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt Yes, Meyer does the Schielhau with a thumb grip, but as you say, earlier sources make no mention of that, and, moreover, the Glasgow Fechtbuch does not show it--and that is a copy of Ringeck. Also, what thrusts? there are no thrusts in the is play. And no, it doesn't change the technique to do it agaisnt a thumb-grip Schielhau--it's basically the same cut.

[airnt]

@Schlachtschule (continuaton) and if you would use this techniue you would risk pushing the point up into your face as you come in. if you get that far because of the displacement he can achieve by the schielhau strike. also what is your source for this application of this technique?

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt No, you do not risk pushing the point up into the face--his point is nowhere near you, and your sword is between the two of you. That's the principle behind all Schnappen--have you never studied the Fechtbücher? You've just decided that one of the most common actions from the bind doesn't work?? The only thing new here is using it vs. the Schielhau.

The source for this technique is clearly documented in the notes above. Didn't you even bother looking at it before commenting?

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt I think you should stop looking at advanced techniques until you've grasped the basics. Go to our page and look at the videos for what a Schielhau actually is, and learn that first. I have posted videos of using the cut--Schiel*hau*--against an Oberhau, and using it to bind against Langenort and Unterstich and thrusting from there. Hopefully, when you actually understand the Schielhau, then the play on this page will make more sense.

[airnt]

@Schlachtschule Am i to understand that i have won the agument because you don't want to discuss the actual material anymore? oh, and allow the previous comment, then maybe it makes sence what i am saying. if you read carfully you will notice i do mean HAU.

you should spend less time in telling everybody they are crap and spend more time in being constructive and getting on with the work and respect everyones point of view like most respectable martial artists do.

[Schlachtschule]

@airnt I'll happily discuss anything. I just want you to learn the techniques first so that we can discuss them meaningfully. And I did "allow" all your comments. I havne't blocked any of them--I want my students to be able to see everything you have to say, believe me.

When you post snotty comments over and over even after someone politely shows you that you don't understand the material you have to expect that you will simply be told to learn the basics before you start arguing.

[KhuranDixal]

It reminds me a hiki \ ukenagashi kesagiri :)

[Schlachtschule]

@KhuranDixal Me too; the Absetzen deflection that's being performed here is very much like the Japanese uke nagashi. We've been experimenting with several plays that use this kind of Absetzen.