John Piper - Spankings Don't Save Kids

[bringonthewrath]

FUCK THIS SHIT, GO BACK 20 YEARS AND TELL MY MOTHER THIS SHIT, THEN MAYBE I WOULDN'T HAVE GOT THE SHIT SPANKED OUT OF ME MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD, IF I EVER HAVE KIDS THEIR ASSES ARE GOING TO LOOK LIKE BRIGHT RED CHERRYS, I DON'T GIVE A SHIT IF ITS DEMONIC, BRING IT THE FUCK ON PUSSY ASS BITCHES

[iluvlp101]

@bringonthewrath you didn't even listen to the video. spankings aren't demonic, spanking kids for breaking the 10 commandments is. he agrees you should spank a child.

[atterolevad]

In hebrews 12 there is a comparison being done between the carnal chastining of our flesh by our earthly fathers and the spiritual chastisment by our heavenly father. In verse 10 we see that the only one between the two that is profitable to the ones receiving it is that which comes from GOd. That which comes from our earthly fathers is not profitable to us but instead is done only to feed the pleasures of those that inflict it. This only "seems right to them" prov. 14:12

[BethelShual]

@atterolevad Hebrews 12 is comparing the way God disciplines us as with how fathers discipline the children they love. It's explaining that, just as our fathers disciplined us, so does God. However, obviously a father can be wrong so it's what seems best to them, where God does it for our good. It doesn't say anything about how the fathers are wrong in disciplining the way they were or that their discipline is unprofitable: those are things you're adding.

[davluc1]

@BethelShual I never added anything.I have aced every reading comprehension test i have ever had. Hebrews 12 :10 KJV For they verily for a few days chastened us AFTER THEIR OWN PLEASURE: but he FOR OUR PROFIT that we might be partakers of his holiness. This is comparing the physical chastasment of our carnal flesh from our earthly fathers to the spiritual correction from God. Once again showing that the the only truth is the spiritual and the carnal is a lie and not profitable.Ephesians6:12

[BethelShual]

@davluc1 You can repeat the same thing as many times as you'd like, but it still doesn't say what you're saying it does. I never denied it being what seemed best to them, but where in that verse does it say that the parent's chastisement is a lie or unprofitable? You can connect Ephesians 6:12 with it, but you're interpreting Hebrews to try to make it fit there. You can't twist Scripture like that.

[davluc1]

@BethelShual I am not twisting scripture. In hebrews 12:10 there is one comparison being done . It is being done between reasons. The reason God chastens his children " FOR OUR PROFIT" compared to the reason that our earthly fathers do it " AFTER THEIR OWN PLEASURE" If you understand how comparisons work this becomes obvious. If you use another translation that says  " that seemed best to them" thats fine but notice it only SEEMED best which means it wasn't best but only seemed that way.

[BethelShual]

@davluc1 That's not true, though. It doesn't have to mean that it wasn't best, but that, just as it says, it seems best. When something seems best to you, does it mean you are always wrong and it's not really the best? Instead, it's just as it says: it seems best. Sometimes, it really can be what is best. Others, it's not. However, with God, it always is for our own good, unlike an earthly father.

God always for our good, but our earthly fathers, as seems best.

[davluc1]

@BethelShual It only seems best to our earthly father because they are observing with a carnal mind. They do not not see the harm that they are doing to the spirit of the child.Notice GOd never comes down and smacks us around as chastisment but rather lovingly convicts our spirit through the power of the holy spirit. True in the carnal world physical force rules but make no mistake about it the spirit operates by different laws. The spirit can only heal in the presence of Love &f orgiveness

[BethelShual]

@davluc1 Well, sir, there's not much more to say about this. I don't think you'll agree with me and I won't agree with you, either. I mean, it just doesn't say what you're trying to make it say, plainly. I'd rather not go in circles, as it seems this will go in. I would expect you to reply to this, but depending how? Please, understand, I don't plan to reply back, so as to avoid this going in a circle until someone finally decides to stop replying.

[davluc1]

@BethelShual There is alot more to say on this topic such as corporal punishment can not be considered Godly wisdom James:3:17 Sparking fear into a child is not a loving thing to do 1 John 4:18 Taking a rod to someone is the opposite of love 1 corinthians 4:21 we are not allowed to fear anyone but God himself Mathew 10:28 not to provoke children to anger and wrath colossians 3:21 and ephesians 6:4  After all jesus already took the physical chastisment for us on the cross Isaiah 53:5

[BethelShual]

@davluc1 I mean, we respected our earthly fathers, even though they only chastened us as seemed best to them (they could be wrong sometimes; they were not always right). How much more then, should we be subject to God, who is always doing it for our profit, knowing what is best for us?

[macroheart]

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 13:24

What about that?

[wilsonteh910916]

@macroheart yes, it disciplines the kids, but it doesn't save them.. piper said he believe in spanking... cos it disciplines them, but what about salvation? that was what he was trying to emphasis on..

[ilikezappa]

@wilsonteh910916 I would suggest keeping your kids well away from religious fundamentalists , unless you want to fill their little heads with repulsive garbage from the Iron age which teaches them that they are wretched and miserable.

[cornwallsteve]

ML1 - you are strangely dismissive & flippant about a God who you think may be not so 'nice' as you would like to imagine - clearly these things happen, and clearly if God exists, he allows them to happen (for reasons best known to himself) - I think it might pay to show him maximum respect friend....

[ilikezappa]

Keep your kids WELL AWAY from this stuff if you want them to grow up healthy. Invisible spirits that control everything little Johnny . If you dont believe it you will be burnt horribly.

Where`s the evidence Daddy ? It seems a bit implausible...

Don`t you worry about that evidence thing Johnny , leave that for them wicked science folks. Now today we are going to learn about how your penis is evil , and how God killed everyone cos he loved `em ..

[ilikezappa]

Cornwall you forgot to put the word "if " in giant capitals , next to the gaping void that has been saved to put any liklihood that this bronze age interpretation is factually accurate. Talking Snakes ? No kidding ?

[cornwallsteve]

Piper says: "God does not foreknow the free decisions of people to believe in him because there arent any such free decisions to know."

God says: "multitudes in the VALLEY OF DECISION: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision" (Joel 3)

"Joshua said to the people, You are witnesses against yourselves that YOU HAVE CHOSEN THE LORD to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses... the people said to Joshua, The Lord our God will we serve, his voice will we obey" (Josh 24)

[cornwallsteve]

"IF YOU TURN again unto the LORD (condition), your brethren and your children shall find compassion (God's conditional response)... for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, IF YOU RETURN UNTO HIM (condition restated). (2 Chron 30:9)

The Bible is chock full of God's reward being contingent upon conditional responses from people. This is a major underlying and prevailing theme thoughout the Bible, entirely denied by 7 point Piperism.

[cornwallsteve]

Piper publishes: "Election refers to God's choosing whom to save. It is unconditional in that there is NO CONDITION man must meet before God chooses to save him. Man is dead in trespasses and sins. So there is no condition he can meet before God chooses to save him from his deadness."

The Bible says: "Repent therefore (condition), and be converted, SO THAT (God's response) your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." (Acts 3:19)

[cornwallsteve]

People resist the Holy Spirit. They refuse to turn from sin to God - but not because God made them this way! He gives us all everything we need to turn and be saved by faith in Christ. This is God's heart expressed... (he is not double minded - we must take him at his word).. "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'"

[someone1899]

No one claims God made them that way. You really need to read Piper before you continue to show the depth of your ignorance. Adam was created good and fell as a result of his choice, plunging the human race in sin. No one wants God in and of themselves because men love darkness rtather than light. A free offer of the gospel will always be turned down by the natural man - because he does not want God. It is only because God first loves us that we love him. No one who wants God is refused.

[cornwallsteve]

Open Theism is rubbish. Of course God knows the future - the end from the beginning. But God has NOT made a pre-determination that people will be born to be damned - predestined to eternal wrath - this is not what God is like - check Jesus talking to Jerusalem: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I HAVE LONGED to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING!" (Luke 13:34)

[someone1899]

And nothing you have quoted is against the view of 5- or 7-point Calvinists. It is absolutely true that "God is not willing that any should perish" - and you have not answered how that is true in your system if some, in fact, still perish.

God can long to gather people to Himself while at the same time in his sovereign counsel, leave them to their sin. It is only if you think human salvation is the ultimate purpose that this gives you trouble.

[MassLiberal1]

@cornwallsteve If God knows the future then God is evil for allowing all of the evil that we see in the world. Just today there was a horrible earthquake in Haiti that killed 100k+. If God knew that the quake would kappen and allowed it anyway then God is not worth worshipping. Open theism is a blessing for evangelicals. However they should go a step further and embrace process theology (panentheism).

[letseatbreakfast]

God says dont be surprised that people died in a tragedy, be surprised you havent been killed yet. you dont realize that God doesnt owe you anything and that you owe God your life because you sinned againsts him, and that God is not wrong to judge sin, he is Holy and has that right. please visit my channel and watch some of the videos there

[MassLiberal1]

With all do respect, you're wrong. Let me break down your comment

1. I owe God my life b/c I sinned? No, if sin is in our nature, as you guys believe we are born w/ original sin, then it's not my fault I'm sinful. Do you really think a newborn baby owes God it's life, b/c you do think that child in sinful?

2. You keep calling God a he/him. This further proves that religion is fairy tale b/c of this persisting patriarchy and sexism.

3.God had nothing to do w/ the quakes in Haiti and Chile...

[bluesette82]

@MassLiberal1 We call God a he, or even just God, because it is a symbol. The highest form of being we can conceive of is ourselves, so we call God Him symbolically. He is not a being, he is the Power of Being. All being is rooted in Him. He gives life, breath, movement, spirit to all things at all times in all places, from the depths of the sea to the far corners of the universe. He is the great I am. The name above all names. We're created in His image, all creation points to his Glory.

[MassLiberal1]

@bluesette82 I like that description. I myself view "God" (not that I always use the word) as a mythic personification of reality, which I see as sacred. One question; would you have a problem w/ someone referring to God as "she" instead of "he"?

[bluesette82]

@MassLiberal1 If you want my opinion, I'll be honest with you and tell you I think it is silly...a reflection of our culture's need to equalize, sterilize, and make sure everything's totally P.C. And I'm a woman. I don't know. I'd never criticize anyone for doing it, but I do think it is weird. The Bible refers to God as a He...obviously nature reflects both male and female...and I believe women are created just as much in His image. I don't know if that answers your question.

[MassLiberal1]

@bluesette82 Fair enough. God bless.

[MassLiberal1]

To believe so only blames the victims of the tragedy. I hate to tell you this but bad things happen randomly. I've known many people w/ children who have cancer, schizophrenia, etc.. Those kids don't deserve their illness, and to say God is in control makes your god a monster.

If I told you there was a doctor who was all-loving and all-powerful, and you went to this doctor to have your child cured of some diseaase but the doctor refused, would you still think that doctor was good, was moral?...

[MassLiberal1]

If you did you'd be deluding yourself, as you currently are w/ your religion. Peace.

[letseatbreakfast]

@MassLiberal1 thats the way it is its too bad you dont want to accept it

[MassLiberal1]

No, actually it's quite nice to be a religious liberal : ) Peace.

[cornwallsteve]

ie unconditional reprobation - little Lucy or little Jimmy may (according to this fearful doctrine) be inexplicably and irretrievably foreordained to eternal wrath - (Are you going to tell the kids the news, or shall I?)

[someone1899]

No one who wants the true and Living God will be turned away. And everyone who goes after his own gods will agree with God that he is condemned for his choice. If you reject this Biblical doctrine, to be consistent, I think you need to jump into the "open theists" camp - since if God knows the future, and he knows who will come to Him, even an Arminian must admit that God knows who are His from the foundation of the world.

[cornwallsteve]

Piper is (see his website) a 7 pt Calvinist - double predestination. ie God creates people born damned. We cant know who - Our child maybe born to be lost by God's choice. So how can you say with certainty that God wants to save Lucy or Jim. This may not be true for that child. The best you can say is God MAY save you in the future - I have no way of telling nor do you - you can do nothing about this if you are an unchosen one - you will go to hell no matter what - NO HOPE. How scary is that!

[someone1899]

"God is not willing that any should perish" is still true. Not even a 7-point Calvinist will disagree with that. But just as you don't want to spank your child, sometimes you want to spank them for their long term good. Two levels. Read Piper.

[someone1899]

All people are born damned in Adam. No one is lost by God's choice. All are lost by Adam's choice and their own choice. God graciously saves some. No one who wants to come to Christ is turned away. Even an arminian cannot say whether Lucy or Jim will be saved. The best you can say is that they MAY be saved in the future - I have no way of telling nor do you - you can do nothing about this if you do not want God - you will go to hell no matter what - NO HOPE. How scary is that!

[cornwallsteve]

Well Piper - this would be all well and good - but you dont seem to believe that all our kids will respond to the gospel as God only want s a few of them to be saved - so what do we do with those of our kids that are supposedly born damned and unchosen, whatever we unpack or teach them - utter rubbish - Is that not straight out of hell!

[someone1899]

I don't think you get Piper's position. God uses means to bring about his will. Just because we believe that God has predestined some does not mean they do not need to hear the gospel in order to be saved. In addition, while God may know who He has chosen, we don't - and He has made it clear that some will come as children, others as adults, and others near the end of life. No one who wants to know the Lord will be turned away, and those who perish will admit they chose to reject the Lord.

[cornwallsteve]

Piper's followers are unable to truthfully tell their kids God loves them ALL and wants them ALL to be saved - because they have no way of knowing which of their own children God has supposedly earmarked for salvation or damnation, so they may be lying by telling their kids God wants them saved when he supposedly doesn't! But this is far from true - God appeals to all our children to repent - we must teach them God loves all people without partiality or favour - not willing any should perish.

[someone1899]

You are mischaracterizing Piper - find out what he teaches before bearing false witness. Piper does in fact readily agree with the biblical truth that God loves all people and that he wants all to be saved. Both Calvinists and Arminians must come to grips with the fact that though God is not willing that any should perish, some in fact do perish. God is being truthful when he says that he will never turn away those who earnestly seek him. Humbly, I urge you to recheck your facts!

[erinreyes2005]

John Piper has to be one of the Best if not the Best BIBLE TEACHING PASTOR of the last 20 years!!!!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!!!!!!

[discipulo123]

i totally agree with you, some people gets bored at his long expositions to get to something simple, people want quick answers, i don`t.

i love expository preaching where every single words hangs giving honor to Jesus so we can understand clearly what the message is and not go around talking about things we don`t understand. God bless you

[ilikezappa]

If you want your children to grow up healthy keep them a mile away from this nutcase and anyone associated with his cult

[ilikezappa]

He believes in spanking?  Does he know Ted Haggard ?

[VisionaryAmbition]

were you not spanked?

[ilikezappa]

Yes indeed , and the occasional strangling. It never did me any harm. In fact , I quite like it......

[VisionaryAmbition]

well than maybe that's a problem if you liked it....

[rlgwf]

what about proverbs 13:24 : "He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him desciplines him diligently."?

[benitosuave]

There is "Legalistic" parenting where the parents behave with the reward/punishment system only, like Piper was saying, and there is "Antinomian" parenting, where parents are lawless in regards to their kids.

What I think Piper is advocating is a third parenting style where there are rules and restrictions, but there is still gospel and repentance. Just as the Lord disciplines Christians that he saved through the gospel, parents still ought to discipline kids who are saved through the gospel

[discipulo123]

very well sad!!! praise God