Noam Chomsky Interviewed by Frank Barat, on Israel/Palestine (4/4)

[liosama]

Though Chomsky is a great man, when it comes to the BDS campaign he really misses the nail here. It's a shame not to have his support, especially when he himself is not allowed to speak at Israeli universities.



[chalitzah]

@liosama

If you are not anti-semitic or a hypocrite, then why are you not boycotting Chomsky, since he teaches at an American university, and in his own words "Israeli crimes are a fraction of US crimes"?

[truhbob]

no mention of average intelligence and education in the ideals of good government between adversaries here. Ask La Griffe du Lion to analyze related statistics. Perhaps that could provide some clue to a settlement. And what of Rothschilds' grand Zionist plans cultivated for a hundred or so years for a Jewish homeland? You seem to focus so much on injustice and fairness that I wonder whether you have become myopic .. What did Sykes-Picot and Balfour documents have to do with the US?

[237Michael]

I think Prof. Chomsky is mistaken on that.

Israel is a Lunatic State... I boycott Israel.

[jockser111]

@237Michael Than stop using YouTube. YouTube is developed by Google which does a lot of their development in Israel...

Best of luck.

[tomrulesify]

Even Chomsky, a pro Palestinian activist, criticizes the BDS, the idea behind it, and some of the people who support it!

[RobertWhitlock]

Can you please tell me exactly how BDS will harm Palestinians more than they are already being harmed?

Isn't the idea of nonviolent resistance to show honorable self-sacrifice in order to gain respect of people?

Will Professor Chomsky call for an international boycott against the United States?

[Cefuroxx]

He is a traitor and I can’t believe I ever trusted him. He is a disgusting person who lies and uses his influence to hurt Palestinians and sow divisions among activists, because he is a closet Zionist. This is obvious if you read his work closely. I hope people in the movement turn their backs on him. We don’t need people like him influencing us or telling us that “Palestinians should just give up and be realistic because of international concensus

J Glatzer courageously telling the truth.

[ua751920]

@Cefuroxx I have never heard him say give up. What I hear him say seems reasonable. Do actions that will help you, or at least think about the consequences of your actions. I can't believe he could have been more lucid. Were we watching the same interview?

[mistermoen]

Dang, Chomksy is a good guy. Even when this dude is pissing him off, he stays as cool, reasonable, and personable as possible.

[Cefuroxx]

@mistermoen

chonmsky channels a 20th century afrikaaner and claims, as a white jewish zionist, to speak about defeating apartheid from his humble abode in boston. The fact that he thinks he knows more about this than tutu or mandela is unfathomable

[pazomblez]

@Cefuroxx

he never said he knew more about it...lol

[Cefuroxx]

@pazomblez

he's against the tactics that tutu and mandela used and have endorsed with regards to israel

[dendryite]

The camera should have been on the interviewer so that we'd know what an idiot looks like.

[Cefuroxx]

If Americans ever fully understand just how much of their suffering and the suffering we have inflicted on others is properly laid on the doorsteps of Israel and its advocates in America, they will sweep aside those in politics, the press and the pulpits alike whose lies and disloyalty brought this about and concealed it from them. They may well leave Israel looking like Carthage after the Romans finished with it. - Alan Sabrosky, fmr Director of Studies, Army War College

[decidererer]

Chomsky, as an elite intellectual egghead who has never organized anything, misses the third rule of tactics: can you effectively target your enemy? So comparing a vast hydra-headed empire like the US and comparatively smaller Israel is intellectually and morally dishonest. Or as a linguist would say, it makes grammatical sense without having any serious meaning. We must HURT Israel, drive out the racist settler population, and end the Zionist nightmare.

[mdoob11]

@decidererer Did you not listen to the interview? Chomsky answered that question specifically! Go to 8:30... It is hypocritical, an attribute that would undermine a legitimate movement, therefore discrediting the BDC campaign. To put it simply, and accurately, it is misdirected, which gives "hardliners", as Chomsky pointed out, good material to slander the movement.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

"Together with the peace-loving peoples of this Earth, I condemn any form of violence - but surely we must recognise that people caged in, starved and stripped of their essential material and political rights must resist their Pharaoh? Surely resistance also makes us human? Palestinians have chosen, like we did, the nonviolent tools of boycott, divestment and sanctions."

DESMOND TUTU

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Chomsky also discussed the analogy - I won't again spell it out for you to totally ignore and digress. Watch the fucking video you're commenting on and perhaps you won't find yourself so lost.

[Cefuroxx]

@decidererer

whats your opinion on the role of t he lobby in this?

[WastedTourist]

Chomsky is an awesome debater. He just steamrolls people who even slightly disagree with him.

[mdoob11]

@WastedTourist It's kind of funny, all the countless hours I've spent listening to Chomsky or reading him and I've never heard someone even take a finger of an upper hand over him. It is as if he monopolizes the knowledge and disperses it in an infallible way. My faith in his word makes me worried though, but without a historical flaw, why question it? lol

[WastedTourist]

@mdoob11 Yes. The thing is, he isn't a super skilled rhetorician or a loud, abrasive speaker and bully. He's just extremely intellectually honest, always cites the facts and evidence and always strives be always logically consistent in his arguments. Once you have that, you'll be irrefutable.

[Cefuroxx]

@WastedTourist

he is incredibly dishonest when it comes to IP

[Cefuroxx]

@WastedTourist

"I had never paid much attention to Chomsky’s writings, as I had all along assumed that he was correct and proper in his position on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

But now, upon learning that his first assumption is that Israel is simply doing what the imperial leaders in the U.S. wants them to do, I concur with you that this assumption is completely wrong.

..in the Congress, the support Israel has in that body is based completely on political fear"

Fmr Senator Jim Abourezk

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx lol you think quotes are evidence. You must be a social science major. Anywho, the real world supports Chomsky's view that the US is the dog and Israel the tail. Check up on what happened when Israel made arms sales agreements with China. Similar scenarios generalize. Game over.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

the Israeli arms deals to china were done without the american jewish community being aware of them and were a major scandal until aipac managed to sweep them under the rug. Isralei spying on the US continues unabated however, check out a book called "Spy Trade" by Grant Smith.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx That's not a reasonable or sufficient explanation. Also, to which occasion do you refer? Twice, Israel was reprimanded, in 2000 and 2005. Neither occasions elicited a peep from AIPAC. I don't see why AIPAC would lose its shit simply because the deal went on behind closed doors - most arms sales do, and they were in the interest of Isreal. So please elaborate. As to spying, needless to say, its mutual, pervasive, international, irrelevant, and insignificant.

[Cefuroxx]

Jonathan Pollard is insignificant? FUCKIN LOL

"The unconditional commitment to the Israeli colonial state has eroded US relations with the richest and most populous states in the Arab and Islamic world. In market terms the difference is between hundreds of billions of dollars in sales versus defending a receiver of massive US aid handouts. The economic losses far outweigh any small-scale questionable military benefits. The Arab states are net buyers of US military hardware." - petras

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Petras is egregiously wrong. Firstly, the greatest reserves in the world are found in Saudi Arabia, the US's second biggest ally in the region, and relations otherwise are swell: UAE, Kuwait etc. Another indication of this is the profitability of US oil firms. Secondly, if not for support for Israel, esp. and significantly starting in 67', Arab nationalism may have spread, infecting and thus alienating the whole of the ME. Support for Israel was undoubtedly economically-motivated.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

The US defense of Israel led to the very costly Arab oil boycott, which brought on a massive increase in the price of oil and the animosity of former Arab allies threatening global monetary stability. Further the demise of arab nationalism has given rise to militant islam which is far more alienating, far more destabilizing and much harder to contain. Certainly chomsky would have you believe it perfomed a service in 67 but the saudis didnt see it that way.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Are you being purposefully obdurate? The decision to support Israel prevented the spread of an independent economic development model, incompatible with the profitability of American corps. Moreover, the past 50 years have been incredibly profitable for US oil firms, an indication that American foreign policy has been successful. There is nothing controversial about this point of view, which sufficiently demonstrates that support for Israel was economically motivated and, well, worked.

[Lunis]

The interviewer is pretty thick. Noam had to explain about 5 times why he thinks the boycott of Israel is hypocritical and harmful to Palestinians.

[mdoob11]

@Lunis Thick, or interested in digging deeper? They sound similar per questions, but the difference in the underlying intent is crucial.

[PersianPaladin]

I think Chomsky qualifies the sort of BDS actions that he supports.

I don't see why some people are angry with him?

[Cefuroxx]

Haim Saban: "Im a one issue guy and that Issue is Israel"

His greatest concern, he says, is to protect Israel, by strengthening the United States-Israel relationship. At a conference last fall in Israel, Saban described his formula. His “three ways to be influential in American politics,” he said, were: make donations to political parties, establish think tanks, and control media outlets.

In 2002 Saban donated 7 million to the Democratic Party alone.....chomsky never talks about him.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx 7 million is nothing compared to what Obama got from Goldman Sachs and others on Wall Street. Like I said, stay off the Mondoweiss/PULSE kool aid and pick up Thomas Ferguson's book.

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

ummm... the 7 million is just one contribution from a billionaire who has the backing of perhaps half of the 400 billionaires in the US. I have read ferguson's book, pulse media and mondoweiss kool aid? For telling the truth they are crazy no huh?

[AntiHypocrisy]

I have seen Chomsky's talk after long and he looks pretty old now. May God bless him.

[Cefuroxx]

anyone who wants to see the zionist in chomsky come to the forefront should check out an article called "Damage Control" by Jeffrey Blankfort

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

I have to agree with Prof. Chomsky. I think BDS distracts activists into doing much more productive things towards ending the occupation (such as ending all US military aid/support to Israel by targeting the military-industrial complex). We should be focusing on divesting from weapons companies instead of boycotting Israeli cultural events or universities.

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

bull fuckin shit

chomsky is so fuckin full of shit on this, my palestinian friends ARE CALLING FOR A BOYCOTT, we should respect them and let them take the lead in their struggle. Its incredibly presumptious for an american jewish zionist to be telling them what to do. And let aipac try and issue a call for a boycott of the US, that will be the ultimate gift to us....

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx Troll much?

Chomsky said he doesn't care if groups want to boycott Israeli products or universities or cultural events. All he's saying is that those tactics are not very effective and it's MUCH MORE effective for Americans to target American companies and politicians who fuel this conflict.

Sorry, but "boycotting Israel out of existence" is not feasible under the current conditions. If you don't want Israel to exist then move there and start an anarchist group.

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

Neve gordon himself is calling for not just an economic boycott of state institutions and corporations but also for a cultural boycott, these theives hae gotten away for over 60 years living the good life, the majority of the population serves in the army, they know whats going on and yet they continue this behavior, they need to know that time is up. This was related to me by two jewish anarchists in barcelona both from anarchists against the wall

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx Again, the problem isn't with *principles* the problem is *tactics*. Poor tactics set movements back and only create enemies when they should be winning over support. Yes, we are all mad at Israel, but we need to look through our emotions and focus on what we can really do to fix the issue instead of ranting "I hate Israel wipe them out of existence blah blah blah".

As well, you are the most responsible for the actions of the government you live under. Focus on the US role in this.

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

"focus on the us role"

Yes, lets start pressuring congress to cut off aid to them, ala South Africa, BDS isnt just boycotts, it raises awareness and also advocates sanctions. No one here said "I hate israel wipe them out of existence blah blah blah" so I dont really know why that is in quotes but whatever. Chomsky's scholarship on the mideast is so awful Im surprised anyone gives him any credibility to begin with. Thankfully bds is causing consterantion among israelis

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx he's credible because he makes sense and explains his reasoning logically.

[Cefuroxx]

@Parazitas999

"They arent palestinians they are groups calling themselves palestinians"

"I regard myself as a supporter of Israel"

"I am afraid that he is, with all his wonderful qualities and the work he does, quite dogmatic on many things. I have no doubt that his grievous mistake about the lack of importance of AIPAC, which he repeats quite often, helps the Zionists"

Israel Shahak on Noam

For better or worse he is against non violent resistance by the palestinians against their occupier

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx well quote picking is easy, as is supporting the easy type of resistance which, according to Chomsky, will not work. Sadly you do not provide arguments why this tactic WILL give results. Instead of quote mining you could provide reasons for boycott, or at least refute Chomskies arguments.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx All national identities (Palestinian included) are artificial. Every state that exists is artificial. Take a look at a map of the world 300 years ago. There were no "Palestinians" then just like how there were no "Israelis", "Lebanese", "Nigerians", "Bolivians", etc. So yes, Prof. Chomsky is quite correct in that regard. Likewise, clinging to a national identity legitimizes the existence of states, so think about it a little bit.

[nadodemerung]

The problem is USA. Not Israel. if USA stops supporting Israel, the situation will resolve itself. For the USA to stop supporting Israel, the people in the USA need to be educated as to the real nature of the situation. Then, with massive support from the population, the situation will change. You can hit on Israel all you want, as long as the USA keeps supporting it they will not budge.

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

the problem is both, but i dont see it being feasible to start a boycott of the US, let me know when chomsky starts a campaign to boycott the us along with aipac I will be the first to sign up......

[nadodemerung]

@Cefuroxx The solution is not a boycott, it is to educate the people in the US that they are responsible for the atrocities in Palestine. If you blame it on the Jews or AIPAC you give every American an excuse to do nothing about it, or sprout crazy kabal conspiracy theories.

[nadodemerung]

@Cefuroxx As for AIPAC, they are irrelevant. Do you seriously think that the one super power in the world would be influenced by a lobby group from a foreign country that is ridiculous. The Pentagon propaganda machine is the best in the world, it could turn the population of the USA against Israel in a manner of weeks. Look at the support for the war in Iraq. The population was against it, after a few weeks of propaganda half of the Americans were convinced that Saddam was involved on 9/11.

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

LOL

walt and mearsheimer

james petras

jeffrey blankfort

alexander cockburn

email them all and tell them how irrelevant the lobby is, holy shit you just made me laugh so hard.

[nadodemerung]

@Cefuroxx

Irrelevant on US foreign policies.

Pretty strong inside the US because it's in line with the powers that be in Washington. How can you not get that.

The US pay for the colonization, provide the military equipment and vetoes anything that is thrown at Israel at the UN. AIPAC is a free propaganda machine for their middle east policy.

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

the lobby dictates american near east policy, that is a fact. It has a stranglehold on congress and well placed individuals in the executive as well, stuart levey comes to mind. "It lines up with US imperial interests" doesnt hold any water, in fact numerous intel and military guys who feel loyal to the american people have come out and SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE like charles freeman, phil giraldi, ray mcgovern..etc

[nadodemerung]

@Cefuroxx

You have it backward. Military or intel guys have no influence on American policies. The convergence of big oil industry and military industrial complex do. The control of the energy resources in the middle east is very important to American interest. Now they control all of the middle east with the exception of Iran. A free Palestinian state and an integrated Israel in the region would mean that the US would lose enormous leverage and control in the region.

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

a free palestinian state would not in any way harm us oil, in fact the oil companies have been far more amenable to peacefully resovling conflicts than the Israeli gun lobby.

[nadodemerung]

@Cefuroxx

Palestine is irrelevant in the Middle East, Israel isn't. It is a major military and economic power in the region. If there was a peace settlements, Israel would no longer be at odds with the other Arab nations and would gain independence from the US. It could pursue it's own interest instead of the American interests. Now the US would not allow that, but it would mean a new narrative, new means of control over Israel. Much simpler and efficient to keep the status quo.

[Cefuroxx]

"there are a set of Jewish organizations, who do work, both in front of the scenes and behind the scenes, to prevent certain kinds of conversations, certain kinds of criticism and so on – and that sounds an awful lot like, you know, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the conspiratorial theory of the Zionist Occupational Government and so on – well if it sounds like it it’s unfortunate, but that’s just how it is." Tony Judt, former Zionist interpretor for the IDF during the 6 day war

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

“Three hundred million Americans could wake up tomorrow to discover that a foreign leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, led them to war with Iran, which might lead to war with the rest of the Muslim world. Israel has no value whatsoever when it comes to American interests. It does not produce or give us anything we need. The only thing we get from it is that it is leading us to a religious war it seeks with Islam”. EX CIA Michael Scheuer, head of the Bin Laden unit

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx That's totally moronic. There are many reasons to support Israel. Why would you repeat something after i demonstrated it's not true? Squashing Arab nationalism was a primary concern, hence the overwhelming support since 67', coinciding with Israel's war with Nasser of Egypt. This facilitated American access to key oil markets; control of oil was considered to be "veto power" over industrial rivals, like Japan (George Kennan's insight, State Department).

[Cefuroxx]

"Lyndon Johnson most certainly did abhor Nasser and was not sorry to see him and his pan-Arab ambitions defeated, but there is absolutely no evidence that the Johnson administration ever seriously planned to unseat Nasser, formulated any other action plan against Egypt, or pushed Israel in any way to attack" Bill C again

LBJ was getting serviced by the wife of a former irgun operative in the WH during the land grab/war which goes a long way to explaining why the USS liberty wasnt investigated

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Moreover, as the US funnels money to Israel, about 3/4 is reinvested in American arms firms, and this has an extra benefit, it forces the whole region to invest heavily in American arms as to not fall behind. Two major, straightfoward reasons, as to why Israel is supported by the US out of self-interest, and here you are repeating vacuous platitudes.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

so let me get this straight....

The US pays for Israel's weapons in order to have the Saudis get armed in order to create friction in the region so that the oil companies will have access to crude in a stable environment? This doesn't rise to the level of a joke

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Pay attention. Israel was initially supported because, among other services, it stifled Arab nationalism permitting American oil firms to access the region unabashedly. In other words, the most significant impediment to a successful economic foreign policy was dismantled by Israel. Simultaneously, the US provides patronage to SA, which hasn't infringed on this economic framework whatsoever; quite the contrary in fact, as SA has the same economic interests. No contradiction there, sonny

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

sayan mdoob11, why must you insist upon repeating the same tired garbage in the face of cia and state department statements to the contrary? Do you think you are fooling anyone?

[dubified89]

@Cefuroxx Do you think some of these guys might be passing the buck though? "Oh it's not our fault, the CIA is good. Blame Israel entirely"

[dubified89]

Of course Israel is a wicked colonialist state with huge influence over the U.S. government, but I don't see how the CIA is any better

[dubified89]

Part of the reason I say this is that this Sheurer guy went on Bill Maher and on the same show that he said the shit about Israel, claimed that the most recent Osama Bin Laden video which was clearly fake was legitimate, even when Maher himself who usually attacks 'conspiracy theorists' was skeptical about it's authenticity. Sheurer claimed that Bin Laden has been dying his hair.

Of course Chomsky probably claims all that is real too. I don't know, he never talks about it. But go check out a

[dubified89]

video of Adam 'Gadahn' as well, i.m.o. clearly a phony

[Cefuroxx]

@dubified89

did you check the interview with giraldi out ?

[Cefuroxx]

@dubified89

blame them both, the us is far from innocent and israel is a full of willing executioners. For a more critical, nuanced analysis from someone who has been there check out phil giradli's latest interview on antiwar DOT com

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@nadodemerung The only lobbies that have any power whatsoever are the ones that already go along with elite interest. AIPAC doesn't control US foreign policy in any region; big industries do. Look up Thomas Ferguson's "The Investment Theory of Politics". It's much more insightful than Meersheimer and Walt's ridiculous book (also interesting how M and W get so much press and publicity in the corporate media if their book is supposedly "so revealing" as people claim).

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

aipac is just one part of a giant zionist power configuration and the most easily identifiable, chomsky never talks about say.....JINSA or the office of special plans or how zionist operatives in the 1980s started working in major newspaper editing rooms in order to show that the reporting on Israel had "balance" I used to take the chomsky line on this, but he is dead wrong. I thank him for introducing me to radical politics but his mideast scholarship is abysmal.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx Can you please tell me your sources for this conspiracy-sounding crap? Regardless as to whether or not there is an "evil zionist lobby" you fail to realize that imperialist US foreign policy works the same way EVERYWHERE. Look at the other countries that receive the most military aid from the US. "Colombia lobby"? "Turkey lobby"? "EU lobby"? I think not.

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

sure, ill pm u some articles

[Cefuroxx]

juliaisafilmbuff123 said:

"you fail to realize that imperialist US foreign policy works the same way EVERYWHERE. Look at the other countries...."

Ilan Pappe begs to differ:

"Now this is utterly wrong - the US position shifted in the ME since Kennedy's death, whereas it remained the same elsewhere. Only in the ME did the US alienate regimes that were pro-American and were supported by all the traditional groups that inform and form US Policy."

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Juliaisafilmbuff is essentially quoting a classical work on US foreign policy - The Roots of American Foreign Policy, by Gabriel Kolko. Central to American foreign policy has always been economic interests. In the ME, it would make sense that the US would alienate certain pro-West regimes; in the long term, investing in Israel, a deterrent to Arab nationalism and independent economic development, would have far greater return.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

"in the long term, investing in Israel, a deterrent to Arab nationalism and independent economic development, would have far greater return."

I trust you were around for the Arab oil embargo in the 70s and the senseless mayhem in Lebanon in the 80's that saw 20,000 lebanese dead as well as 250 US marines who had to be dispatched to fight israel's war.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Who wasn't around for that? I don't know what you're suggesting re: Arab oil embargo, but as to Lebanon, case in point. In 82, Israel, fed up with the embarrassing PLO calls for political settlement, invaded to impose a Maronite regime. At first, unwavering US support. When it was becoming too messy and harming US interests, Reagan called off the invasion, only to subsequently order the removal of the PLO, to the pleasure of Israel. Again, the US shags, Israel wags.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

"The evidence is equally clear that Israel was the prime mover in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and led the U.S. into that morass, rather than the other way around."

Former CIA analyst Bill Christison,

August, 1982, the day after Reagan requested Ariel Sharon end the bombing of Beirut, Sharon responded by ordering bombing runs over the city at precisely 2:42 and 3:38 in the afternoon, times coinciding with UN resolutions requiring Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Nevertheless, Reagan ascertained a mitigation of the invasion/attacks and subsequently the more "humanitarian" removal of the PLO. This would not have even been requested, let alone abode by, had Israel been the top dog. That AIPAC is the decisive factor in US foreign policy is not only factually incorrect, but regressive for progressive politics. It exonerates the US and discredits what is true about their relationship, namely that American facilitates Israel FP and aggression.

[Cefuroxx]

Israel merely called upon the power of its jewish lobby in washington wrt Reagan's attempt to rein them in:

"Reagan ordered Israel to call off the invasion in August, two months after it was launched. This is true, but in fact Israel did not pay any attention; the invasion continued, and the U.S. got further embroiled into misguided adventures to support Israel, it is a clear denial of reality to say that Israel and its lobby have no significant influence on Middle East policy." Bill Christison

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Re: bombings, I'll have to look into it, I don't recall the chronology. I do however recall the general flow of events conforms to my description, namely that Reagan was calling the shots. I respect skepticism until I may delineate.

In 1981 though, Reagan successfully overcame the Israeli lobby’s opposition to his proposed sale of AWACS radar planes to Saudi Arabia. This was a watershed event because the lobby never mounted a significant challenge to an arms sale again!

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

opposition from AIPAC, the principal pro-Israel lobbying group in the US, and its congressional supporters forced the Reagan administration to withdraw "temporarily" on June 11 its planned sale to Saudi Arabia of 1,600 Maverick air-to-ground missiles, valued at $360 million. Earlier, at the end of May, also under heavy AIPAC and congressional pressure, the White House had withdrawn "temporarily" its plan to sell Saudi Arabia 12 F-15 jet fighters, valued at $500 million, THIS WAS 1987

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Dude, the evidence you're borrowing from your little Israel Lobby websites is totally tenuous. Just as I indicated the successfulness of US FP esp. w.r.t. oil firms' profitability, here I will indicate that AIPAC is not controlling arms sales to Saudi Arabia. From 1950 through 2006, Saudi Arabia received 79.8 billion dollars worth of weapons/military equip/ and services. In comparison, Israel has received $53.6 billion in U.S. military grants between 1949 and 2007. Case closed man.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

the fatc that saudi arabia bought 80 billion in arms since 1950 was never disupted, you said

"This was a watershed event because the lobby never mounted a significant challenge to an arms sale again!"

And I showed that to be false, for in 1987 they halted an arms sale to the Saudis.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Let me put it this way. If the lobby mounted a significant challenge, SA would not have 50% more purchased arms/services from the US than Israel does. In that sense, the lobby is insignificant, which is my argument of course, and has been amply substantiated by now. I'm not dying that there were deviating instances, only that these are the exception, not the rule, and hence insignificant. I don't think this is a stretch or an unreasonable argument.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx Furthermore, the 2:42 and 3:38 bombings, they took place in July, not August, which is when Reagan asked for mitigation of the invasion and of the bombings, before ordering the hasty removal of the PLO! I don't doubt you think you're speaking the truth, but you really need to stop using these shitty Lobby sites as sources, they are fraudulent and fabricated, as I've twice demonstrated now.

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

Bill Christison is now a shitty Lobby site? Ok man, source on the July versu August thing?

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx I didn't say he was. But the information about the Saudi sales I found on a Lobby site, as well as the information re: 242 and 338. It's super easy to find that these attacks happened in July, just google them with the appropriate key words. And we know from your quote (save me time) that Reagan was calling it off in August. But I already admitted we haven't the appropriate evidence. I'm waiting for an email back from Chomsky. You can email him you know, chomksy@mit.edu

[Cefuroxx]

@mdoob11

can u link me to the site for the 2:42 and 3:38 bombing please?

also this sentence is incredibly misleading:

"SA would not have 50% more purchased arms/services from the US than Israel"

Israel 'purchases' what exactly and with whose money? We know saudis buy their own shit with oil money but what exactly does israel pay for?

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx i will not link you. They took place on July 26. You can find it in Chomsky's book fateful triangles as well, which is on google books. Find it yourself, i've been looking up a number of things. And as to 50% more, that's accurate, and relevant because it demonstrates that, contrary to your postulation, Israel is not controlling arms sales to Saudi Arabia, at least it is not a significant challenger. If Israel was the power house it is made out to be, it would not permit such things.

[mdoob11]

@Cefuroxx I realize you have a quote, but until we see some evidence that isn't fabricated, ie: 242/338, which took place in July, it's all tentative. It's been difficult finding the chronology and information we'd require to conclude the argument. I've sent Chomsky an email, hopefully he has something to say we can fact check. His read is the same as mine, is the same as Robert Fisk's, namely, that Reagan was calling the shots. But as to oil and arms sales, there is no confusion I hope.

[nadodemerung]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

You are preaching to the converted.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@nadodemerung I think a lot of people (like, ahem, that cefuroxx user) want to believe there's some evil group of Jews somewhere dictating US foreign policy, instead of looking at the institutions which make up the government/state. It's like this: should we focus our time on "exposing" AIPAC, or should we spend it trying to reform the institutions which allow for those with more money (regardless of views) to control the system? I think the latter is much more productive, and Chomsky knows it.

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

You fail to have a factional/deep state analysis of the situation and are stuck only with a structural one, which is important but in no way able to explain the US policy toward Israel.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx What is the state then? How should I analyze it? The way poli sci professors at elite universities (i.e. Mearsheimer and Walt) do, or the way most anarchists and other radicals do?

[Cefuroxx]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

the state is the monopoly on the use of violence in a given area, analyze it both the way elite poli sci profs like walt, mearsheimer and ferguson do and the way radicals do, both types of analysis are important and they are in no way mutually exclusive. Im awaiting a reply to the PM I sent you earlier also

[nadodemerung]

@juliaisafilmbuff123

I totally agree.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

@Cefuroxx Again, you are just getting twisted up in emotions so much so that you lack any argument as to whether or not boycotting Israeli performers (for example) is effective in ending the occupation. All you've done is call other users and Prof. Chomsky names to show what a tough guy you are.

[Ethiopiabuzz]

Great man !

[hamidious]

Ghandi didn't boycott the British military, the Indians didn't buy anything British manafactured. South Africa too was boycotted economically.

There's nothing wrong with boycotting Israel, it's not antisemitic. Israel propoganda will try to twist things no matter what, so there's no point for people to stop doing anything and just try to educate.

If military resistance is out, boycott is out, what's left then?

[Parazitas999]

@hamidious no means is out, but each of them has to be done properly and with thought. Chomsky explained why SA boycott worked, only because there WAS a consensus in the world about apartheid. And there is no such consensus about Palestine issue.

[AndrewMann552]

Chomsky is using common sense here and the facts. A lot of activists get lost in cloudy, broad dreamscapes, but we need to be focused and realistic about the current political conditions. So what if we boycott Israel? The US will continue funding it as it did the Honduras coup regime last year even when the entire world blocked it out. And as Chomsky pointed out earlier, the PA is already a colonial puppet army.

[Cefuroxx]

@AndrewMann552

chomsky is full of shit

[leahcim3360]

Further........Chomsky suggests that other more specific campaigns like stopping US sells of Military ARMS to Israel and boycotting US companies that operate in the Occupied lands will have more meaningful impact. For example, the peace activist Rachel Corrie was crushed by a bulldozer supplied to the Israeli "Defense" Force by the US Corporation Caterpiller.

[leahcim3360]

YES....."there IS consensus in the world that Palestinians suffer because of Israel occupation. DEEP consensus of PROFOUND suffering.

Chomsky's point is that the much ballyhooed RECENT BDS campaign is insufficiently "targeted" and much too broad to be a useful tactic. He posits that it will do more damage than good.....

[Parazitas999]

@leahcim3360 Consensus by who? People of the world? Majority of people in the world think that Palestinians suffer? And that they suffer BECAUSE of Israel? Because the message was to all people in the world and I really doubt that majority of population really has such consensus.

[leahcim3360]

@Parazitas999 so YOUR doubt overrule the UN mandate DEMANDING that Israel return to WITHIN its own borders.

Are you actually suggesting that ANYONE on Earth believe the Israeli OCCUPATION of Palestine does not cause Suffering.

Even the War Criminals who support this ILLEGAL OCCUPATION (according to the UN and the WORLD COURT) know it " causes suffering".

1417 Palestinians KILLED in Israel's 2009 invasion.

just Google "Dead Palestinian Children" in "Google Images"-see if THAT qualifies .

[Parazitas999]

@leahcim3360 you miss the point. I do not doubt that Israel is the problem and I never said that. I said there is no consensus on this questions. And as Chomsky correctly pointed out only American opinion and American political decisions really matter. And about opinion look at poll data:"3w_pollingreport_co m/israel_ht m" They show that 60-80% of American population consider Israel American ally and look at them favorably. That is the reality not UN mandate.

[Parazitas999]

Last point was a bit tough. But I think I understand. The point is the message "Boycott Israeli goods" is not good. Thing is such simple message IS anti-semitic, because it calls all the world to boycott one nations produce. And the reason being Israel hurts Palestine. BUT there is no consensus in the world that Palestinians suffer because of Israel occupation. And then there is no such consensus it's very easy to turn this simple message against "Palestinian people" or organization representing

[Parazitas999]

Furthermore, boycott could be a useful tactic if used correctly. But you have to choose target and message correctly. For example message to Americans could be "America must stop military aid for Israel". But this same message "America must stop military aid for Israel" would be bad for Europeans. Same message, different target and it becomes harmful from good. That's what Chomsky means by hypocrisy of the message.

[hamidious]

@Parazitas999

It is not tangible to boycott military aid for the public, that's with the policy makers. Meanwhile,the people can only boycott Israeli products. This can help hurt the economy of Israel and at least gives Israel an incentive to seek peace. The Israeli public has been overwhelmingly supportive of their government, for instance 2009 Gaza bombing and aid flotilla massacre.

There's nothing anti-semitic about that. The anti-semitic card will be used anytime Israel is opposed anyway.

[Parazitas999]

@hamidious But that is exactly the point. Yes it is harder for public to boycott military aid and yes, they can not do that directly. But if you are American and you feel at least a bit responsible that your country is supplying weapons used to kill not to defend. Then it should be your moral duty to do something about that. But if some country is making produce through exploitation, but there is no direct connection to you or your country there is no moral duty. That is why education is crucial

[Parazitas999]

@Parazitas999 and that is why it is so important to target statements correctly. Think about how it sounds for average American: "Boycott Israel goods because it is exploiting Palestine". He is asked to do something about someone else problems. No one is morally accountable for every problem in the world, so why should he participate in someone else boycott? But if the message is directly tied to your countries actions then at least it's not hypocritical and a valid request.

[hamidious]

How is boycotting Israel harmful to them and why is it anti-semitism?

This is the first time I don't agree with Prof. Chomsky.

[Arkinight]

@hamidious I believe he describes in great detail why he is against it.

[Cefuroxx]

@hamidious

i agree, boycott israel

[nadodemerung]

@hamidious

Because by this standard you should boycott the entire world. The USA, Russia, China, etc.. are responsible for much worst crime then Israel, why single out Israel? Also it's a stupid that idea that will not work because the population of USA is pro-Israel. What do you think the response will be? However if you educate people as to what the situation is in Israel, there will be no need for a boycott. People will simply not tolerate their government support for this regime.

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

Cowardly to boycott china and russia and ignore The US support for israel, it isnt a srtaight boycott either, it is also a movemnt to cut off aid to israel until it abides by international law, and would amount to a boycott of certain american arms industries. The public is not overwhelmingly pro israel either, worldwide patience for the nuclear armed tel aviv taliban is paper thin.

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx "The public is not overwhelmingly pro israel either, worldwide patience for the nuclear armed tel aviv taliban is paper thin." Please provide proof. Polls show differently. Please do not ignore reality.

[Cefuroxx]

Chicago Council on Global Affairs:

a strong majority of Americans (66%) prefer to not take either side in the conflict

majority of Americans (56%) say that if Israel were to bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities and the two were to go to war, the United States should not bring its military forces into the war on the side of Israel and against Iran

asked whether they would favor using U.S. troops in the event that Israel were attacked, 47 percent say they would favor doing so, while 50 percent say no

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx 47% Americans would favor a war against Israels enemy. That is not paper-thin support. Half of country is not only supporting but would favor A WAR.

CBS News/New York Times Poll. April 28-May 2, 2010

"Is your overall opinion of Israel very favorable, mostly favorable, mostly unfavorable or very unfavorable?"

Very favorable - 15%

Mostly favorable - 40%

Unsure - 22%

US citizens still have to be educated a lot, before asked for support for Palestine.

[Cefuroxx]

@Parazitas999

you said overwhelming, and under 50% aint it

[dendryite]

@Parazitas999 Yes, US citizens absolutely need to be educated about Palestine. I can speak for myself. I have been a media dropout for decades, so my ignorance was "self-inflicted." I happened to read a very moving book by a Palestinian woman; this propelled me to educate myself.



[dendryite]

@Parazitas999 (con't) The corporate media is criminal in so many ways, but if I believed in hell I'd have to believe that the owners and the "journalists" would someday find themselves there. Why? Because they fill America's heads w/so much frivolous nonsense. Altho' my faith in my fellow Americans ain't what it used to be, I do believe that if they were shown what was really going on in Palestine (& elsewhere, for that matter), the majority would be appalled & firmly against it.

[hamidious]

@nadodemerung Can't we boycott and educate at the same time? The conflict has been going on for 60+ years now and everybody knows what's going on or they just don't care or just biased. Other countries sure are guilty of crimes, but nothing so blatantly obvious as what's going on in Palestine and for 60 years; furthermore, Israel has the stronger media support. The US government is an enabler but Israel is the perpetrators. Boycott on its own might not be the answer, but it is still resistance.

[Cefuroxx]

@hamidious

yes we can boycott and educate at the same time, these people are going through some mental gymnastics to avoid what should come naturally. I thank you for your rationality

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx yes we can do lots of things at the same time, but the things which are done have to work and achieve result. Why should you do things, which do not work? You say we should boycott, Chomsky provides arguments why this is bad tactic, which only hurts. You still did not provide any data or reasoning which shows otherwise.

[Cefuroxx]

@Parazitas999

my reasoning is that the occupation and ethnic cleansing has continued unabated for over 60 years, finkelstein supports violent resistance against israel, he has openly said "they need to suffer a defeat" and yet him and chomsky oppose non violent resistance. absent a cultural boycott and an economic sting or a huge bloodbath there are no real practical options. The un aint done shit, congress is bought, and the EU says one thing and does another.

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx I see no reasoning only emotions, which are understandable. Chomsky does provide a solution. Yes it's not quick and not easy, but it's possible and his reasoning sound logical: put an effort to stop subsidizing new settlements from USA and IDF. Why do you want to take on and advocate tactics which deepen the problem by giving more support to opposing side?

[Cefuroxx]

@Parazitas999

how does this give them more support if aipac really tries to boycott the us do u know how retarded they will look? Emotional huh? Lol, there's a red herring if I ever saw one, the reasoning is sound. Absent more war or a crippling boycott, what alternative is there? An effor to sanction israel selectively by divesting only from companies that actively participate in the occupation? Too selective to have any effect

[Parazitas999]

@Cefuroxx that is exactly how retarded pledge to boycott Israel looks to those people who support Israel - and there is lots of them, that is the main point. And yes you actually described the reasonable tactic - selective divesting for certain companies. It may have an effect or not, but at the moment only this is possible. If you try to ask for broader boycott you will be accused of antisemitism. Until there is broader support, message of boycott does cause harm.

[nadodemerung]

@hamidious

No if you call for a boycott to a population that is not educated it's fuel for the enemy. It will be labeled antisemitic and it will work. Like making fun of Sarah Palin only reinforce the myth of the liberal medias/elites not caring about the ordinary folks who think and talk like her. USA is guilty of crimes much more blatantly obvious then Israel. How many Palestinian did Israel kill in the past 10 years? Compare that to the number of victims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Cefuroxx]

@nadodemerung

the public understands this: APARTHEID, pure and simple. Associate Israel with that and a boycott and the rest will follow.