I feel that atheist are far more sympathetic with the wrong doings happening in the world today than the religious group in society. When you are not burdened with having to keep true to a set of believes you have more freedom to do and think as you like. To make your own decisions. I think this world would be a wonderful place if everyone was made to make up their own mind. I believe people as a whole are good but are often mislead, or unknowingly follow a path that is not their own.
@0wetduck0 Definitely agree. But society has always felt an innate need to categorize ourselves (or prove me wrong here?). Can we achieve this level of open-mindedness without being too chaotic?
Sadly - being a weary cynic myself - I would have to agree at least in part with the sentiments of the opinion in discussion.
It certainly is good to put the arguments out there... but unfortunately the way youtube is set up tends to encourage trolling & recreational bickering. Alas the stance of youtube as highlighted by events shows how difficult the situation can be. Individuals who want to stifle debate hide behind anonymity, abuse the DMCA & get away with it.
I first started seriously questioning religion with a silly show called ancient aliens. It is an alternate explanation of why we have religion based on the supernatural. With one source critically analyzing religious stories, I began to question the stories in other contexts until I reached where I am today
I really appreciate your thoughts, to shame that you cover in your videos only narrow spectrum such as atheism. I would love to hear something about science, politics, monetary system, art etc from your reasoning, distance perspective.
I agree with you and with the other comments, keep making videos. Although I'm not an 'atheist' or whatever term you prefer, I believe in God and love Jesus but I also enjoy the dialogue between opposing views. The difference in beliefs and ideas is what makes us unique. The videos have made me question a lot of my beliefs and why I believe what I believe and have only made my resolve stronger. Have been and will continue to be a subscriber.
Becoming an atheist wasn't that hard of a road to travel for me. I was't pulled into any religion even as a child, I wasn't "Christened", wasn't "Circumcised", and was never made to go to church, pretty lucky to be honest.
I had a far harder time breaking free of the conspiracy shit to tell you the truth, its quite embarrassing to see people that think everything is some sort of conspiracy, knowing I used to be like that too. The mind is so easily infected with irrationality. Handle with care.
If nothing else, the perspective of a lifelong atheist, like me, and a converted/deprogrammed ex-Christian like you is going to throw up differences of opinion. As I've point out in a recent video of mine, the mere fact of being an atheist doesn't speak to the epistemology behind that decision.
@COEXISTential Indeed — I've had many interesting conversations about what people feel these different experiences have given them, which again differs between individuals in each group. All of which diversity serves to highlight the sorry inadequacy of the stereotypical 'angry-with-god' atheist — in itself an oxymoronic concept.
I couldn't put a date on the moment I became atheist, but watching videos like this made it easier to accept the fact that I was one. I like reality and there is so much more in atheist / secular videos. Some theist stuff is good for a laugh though.
Also that discussion with the people we disagree with can lead us to reassess and strengthen our own beliefs and reasoning. They can lead us to new topics we may not have otherwise encountered, and we can be further equipped to discuss our beliefs with both those we agree and disagree with.
My indoctorination as a child was very damaging to me. Religion did nothing but make me feel like I wasnt good enough. The problem was I had no idea how to not be religious. I tried several religions but they all felt the same. Wrong. Learning how to think for myself without influence has made my life worth living. And atheists need fellowship too. I still love videos life yours as much as when I first became a freethinker and couldn't be more thankful for them.
You're certainly not wasting your breath, sir. You (along with other YouTube contributors like Evid3nc3 and EdwardCurrant) were instrumental in my de-conversion from whole-hearted belief in fundamentalist Christianity. So THANK YOU. Everything you say in this video is bang on... people like me (the "converted") need to hear the things you say. You never know what difference it could mean to them, if they care at all about reason. Keep on preaching to the converted!
I'm probably not the first to say it, but, as an atheist myself, I get lots of usefulness out of these kinds of videos. Not because I enjoy listening to things I already agree on, it's because I can learn new things, build my own world view and understanding of these issues. These videos help other atheists become better at explaining themselves to others, and through that, more and more of us will be better equipped to argue against ignorance.
Great vid TheraminTrees! I find that comment to be like when the fundamentalists say atheism is a religion or it requires faith. Don't they feel religion and faith are positive attributes? I'm never sure if I should correct them or thank them.
If preaching to the converted is a waste of time...I guess that clears up some time on Sunday mornings :D
It isn't true that you are preaching to the converted. It's people like you that stir something, either in those that are undecided, or even those that have decided very much the other way. One of the channels you list on your profile page is Zinnia, and her videos were one of the leading factors in taking me from unquestioning Christian to critically thinking atheist. It's individuals like you that address compelling reasons to reassess our own beliefs.
@Aphotic0221 Thank you. It's funny but me and a few folks I've spoken to on here have sometimes found that really vociferous theists, who've come at us aggressively, were actually in the throes of great doubt and turmoil because of the fact questions were being offered on YT that they had no answer to — they later come to us privately as atheists, mortified at how they behaved, but I'm just glad they made it through. And Zinnia's great isn't he — great integrity, focus and of course humour.
@TheraminTrees He's definitely something else. He triggered a lot in me in the way of immobilisation, like you described with your Mr. Elliot. Your videos have also been incredibly helpful in sorting my thoughts out between theism and atheism, and the reasoning behind any of it. I've also found a great deal of parallels, especially in your Instruction Manual To Life video, as my experience has not been so different in the past decade.
I wouldn't say that I'm mortified at how I behaved. I understand now many of the feelings I had back then, and why I felt the way I did, and I think it'd be irresponsible not to apply this new found understanding. I also recognize that everything I went through has strengthened greatly my awareness and ability to critically think, and I too am simply glad that I made it. Thank you, Mr. Trees. :)
its funny, but i can generally tell when someone who used to be a fundamnetal religious type, has 'converted' to atheism, because they wind up treating the identification with that label of atheist, in almost the same way they treated the identification with the label of religious.
In other words, I can spot a 'converted' a mile away.... it isn't the individual beliefs so much as the desire to attach a label to our identities and defend it.
Its absolutely NOT true. Without people like you, who gather rational arguments without aggression, I myself may never have questioned my beliefs. I grew up in a religious home, Christianity being The Truth and nothing else was applicable. I was born and bred to further the Christian concept by pumping out good Christian babies, even encouraged to marry young and get started.
Wiithout people who spoke out, that would have been the sum of my life. I'm so thankful people like you SPEAK OUT.
Excellent video. I spent many (too many maybe) hours arguing with Creationists on Usenet in the 90s. And no matter how intractable the target of my arguments and rebuttals, I was always convinced that even if my posts were falling on the deaf ears of the original Creationist poster, I knew that the "lurkers" were reading, seeing whose argument was more more convincing, or at least questioning their own assumptions about the topic. And that was worth the effort.
Thanks for such a great video. At one point I was training to be a Catholic priest. I didn't just believe, I BELIEVED in God. If you had met me 20 years ago, you would have been convinced that I was never going to change my mind. If it weren't for people "preaching to the converted" or "wasting their time on people who are never going to change"... I never would have changed. So... yeah... I'm kind of glad people waste their time explaining atheism to people.
@Everstruggling Thanks for sharing this personal testimony. I still cringe at a line I wrote in a religious education essay: 'I am a christian and my views will never change!'
@TheraminTrees@glower125 Hmm... it's hard to tell if you are Islamic, crazy or seeing if I fall for Poe's Law. I'm going to go for some combination of the first two. So... 1. Are you seriously trying to tell me that your imaginary friend is better than my imaginary friend? 2. Yes, I worship myself: I get down on my knees and sing my praises mulitiple times everyday. I build buildings in which to perform rituals in my honour, and I show people my diary as proof they should worship me too.
@Everstruggling From catechism to Atheism? well not much of a change. from one pagan belief to another pagan belief. you use to worship mithra, osiris, krishna, tamuz..etc now you worship yourself and your desires.
I got a question though: isnt the majority of the human populations actually only "registered believers" on paper or is it spesified that none is for example "christian" in only the terms that they follow christian traditions like chrismas and other similar "holy days" and not actually truly believe in the god they are following the religion of... to break it down: what and how do you define the "majority" of a religion?
Hello there, I'm just curious if you believe its best to have people converted, or is it best to have people develop understandings of themselves and their beliefs.......In other words, are you looking to have everyone accept athiest views, or are you trying to get people to become freed from their "sticky" unhealthy concepts? just curious
Excellent video, your points are simply put and impossible to fault. Of course people are converted by this debate- most of the best atheist debaters on Youtube or elsewhere are former Christian scholars who know their Bible by rote. See the Atheist Experience vids for just one example of an atheist who knows more about religion than anyone who tries to debate with him about it. Clearly his conversion did not happen overnight.
The world has place for only two kinds of people: the "true believers" - the sheep who conform and obey; and the preachers - the wolves who manipulate and control. Atheists are the few deluded ones, too smart to be in one group and too kind to be in the other. Atheists have no place in this world. Atheists will be destroyed, willfully by one group, and unwittingly by the other.
@greenjelly01 actually athiests are quickly growing in number as reasoned arguments debunking religions of all stripes are being spread thoroughout the world, principally by the internet, but also by books and documentaries and radio broadcasts. Leading thinkers like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens are opening people's eyes and making them question their religious beliefs on a daily basis. Far from being destroyed by theists, atheists are winning the battle.
@greenjelly01 Your statement about only two groups — the 'true believer' sheep and the 'preacher' wolves — having a place in this world doesn't stand up. I was a 'true believer' — I obeyed/conformed. And I moved out of that space by myself: I wasn't taught atheism, I reasoned my own way. Your statement relies on a flatness/fixedness of outlook that does not hold in the real world. There may be dark ages of oppression — but oppressive regimes are overthrown all the time.
@TheraminTrees Oppressive regimes are replaced by other oppressive regimes. Evolution shows that atheism will fail - cos atheism is not profitable. Theism is profitable in terms of money and power, and is a sustainable enterprise. The profit of atheism is not immediate. Atheism is profitable in the sense that socialism is profitable to the human society over long periods of time - a concept that the majority of humans are incapable of understanding.
@greenjelly01 'Oppressive regimes are replaced by other oppressive regimes.'
—Not inevitably. And it sidesteps the point — you said atheism'll be destroyed. Not only will it be passed on, my own case shows it arises spontaneously without tutoring. 'Evolution shows that atheism will fail'
—It shows no such thing. Your assessment of 'profitability' ignores all kinds of strengths — eg it ignores the fitness of arguments, which if we apply selection principles gives atheism a great advantage. Etc.
@TheraminTrees I wish "fitness of arguments" were a favorable trait for natural selection. The number of obese people I see sitting in McDonalds every day surely does not seem to suggest that. Religion has been sustained over the centuries by people who have held power (for noble reasons or otherwise). You cannot sustain atheism without atheists in power. I am not averse to what you do, I am just dismayed at the futility of it.
@greenjelly01 'I wish "fitness of arguments" were a favorable trait for natural selection. The number of obese people I see sitting in McDonalds every day surely does not seem to suggest that.'
—That argument doesn't stand up either — it completely ignores the non-obese people. You came on here talking about the destruction of atheism. But none of the arguments have supported anything more than possible marginalisation. Thankfully your bleak futile outlook doesn't hold up.
@greenjelly01 And by the way I'm not asserting that the fitness of arguments aids selection of the person holding the argument — I'm saying: in the selection of ideas, atheism is robust because its arguments and counter-arguments hold. They can also be determined from first principles — rather than having to be passed on. Hence even if there were no atheists on the planet at any point, it would arise again. The same could not be said for ideas that depend on indoctrination/proselytisation.
@greenjelly01 This is probably all just a complicated rationalization so you can act like a complete dick. Then you can say you've decided to be a "leader" instead of a "follower".
@mymovinpictures I didn't say there are only two kinds of people - I said the world has place for only two kinds. I am an atheist, and this world will kill me for it.
@greenjelly01 Umm, you do know that everyone dies, right? It's not the world (such a vague term for a murderer) that will kill you, and you won't die because you're an atheist. You'll die because you're made of cells that eventually lose their ability to replicate themselves. Or maybe you'll get hit by a bus. Or get cancer.
@greenjelly01 I'll ignore the insult since there are too many of them in the anonymity of the internet to take seriously. But tell us, since you seem to know so much about it, how (or even why) the "world" can possibly kill you for being an atheist. Aren't there atheists who have lived to a ripe old age? And aren't there more atheists and other non-sheep, non-wolf-type characters than ever before, with that number growing larger still?
@mymovinpictures dude you don't get it do you? I meant that the deluded people in this world do not like atheists. Go out in Alabama or Tennessee and say you are an atheist, you will be shot before you step back on your driveway. No politician in the US can dare say he even doubts the existence of god and hope to win an election. People get evicted, suspended, fired, and bodily injured simply for being atheists. This is not a fight atheists are going to win simply by "rational conversation".
@greenjelly01 Um, I grew up in Mississippi. No one ever shot me for being an atheist. And this fight IS being won by rational conversation, or at least rational thought. How do you think the numbers of atheists are growing? They're talking to each other and proving that atheism isn't just one person's crazy idea. Look at the numbers. Atheists are the largest minority of any kind in this country now (~15% of the population), and those numbers are GROWING.
@mymovinpictures You'd think by now people in general would have realized there are more than two options. I blame the left brain right brain duality. left or right? I say spin in a circle. up or down.? i say up is an illusion. it's outward in all directions. Every time i hear a choice between two, I remember 3 and 4 and so on. Perspective is key.
Ithink this "Preaching to the converted" statement is more like religious mafia agreement. if you dont try to steal my sheep o will not try to steal yours.
Everyone is naturally trying to maintain censorship around them. that why people get angry when they see something different. it is because this example may influence someone in the group.
that is especially important for parents who always try to limit kids choices and available information.
It may not be an utter waste of time to make arguments, but the truth is, when individuals or societies do change their opinions, it is typically a long, slow process. I usually try not to argue people out of their religion, because I tend to subscribe to Marx's theory of religious alienation. Religion expresses a desire for ideal human relations that cannot be realized under existing social conditions. Thus, people are unlikely to abandon religion as long as capitalism rules.
I agree that it's important to challenge people's views, these videos aren't pointless at all. BUT, surely if religious faith is not founded in reason, we can't unconvince a believer using reason?
@WtFCBermudaCake Something might not be founded in reason — but that doesn't mean that reason cannot be applied to it. There've been aspects of my life — social, political, etc. — where there've were questions I just wasn't asking. I wasn't aware of the questions, and was 'going with the flow'. As I've become aware of the questions, I've been able to use reason to begin contemplating the answers.
@TheraminTrees Theramin, another 'nice video' lol, but I was surprised you didn't point out the obvious contradiction in that for someone to even leave a comment like that they must suppose that they are capable of changing your opinion. XD
The problem with almost everyone I encounter in decade is that when they finally open their mind for a new set of ideas, they tend to become just as closedminded about that new set of ideas as they were about their previously held set of ideas. Nearly everyone has a whole bunch of dogmatic beliefs and both educated people and ignorant people alike tend to get hostile when you argue against them.
@OutOfTheBoxThinker There can be hostility when talking about beliefs. I think the trouble is that to have effective communication, you need both parties to be receptive to that communication. It won't work when both, or one or the other are hostile. And that unfortunately describes a vast amount of interactions, which quickly get derailed through personal insults and insinuations.
@OutOfTheBoxThinker 'I don't think you have any idea how pervasive this really is and how much it limits progress.'
—See — that's an assumption right there that you're now making about me — right at the start of this interaction, you've mentally limited my ability in your mind when you don't know what I think. Would you like to rethink?
@Theramin : I said "I don't think you have any idea", not "I know you don't have any idea". It's an unproven hypothesis, not an assumption.
Most people aren't able to distinguish hypothesis, assumption and fact, though, especially when they're relying on some sort of authority, whether secular or religious... and the more trust people have in said authority, the more hostile they tend to get when that authority is questioned as they consider youir questioning as a personal attack against them.
—No need for the speech about assumption versus hypothesis. I know the difference thanks — if we're going to be formal. I wasn't being formal. So my question stands — would you like to rethink?
@TheraminTrees : Sure I would, although I don't have enough data to either prove or disprove my initial hypothesis . To assess your familiarity with the pervasiveness of common human narrowmindedness and prejudice across boundaries of religion, ideology and level of education, I would need to know a lot more about you than I can tell from the videos you've posted on YouTube ;-)
@OutOfTheBoxThinker 'To assess your familiarity with the pervasiveness of common human narrowmindedness and prejudice across boundaries of religion, ideology and level of education, I would need to know a lot more about you than I can tell from the videos you've posted on YouTube'
@TheraminTrees : I never claimed otherwise. Anyway, in spite of what might seem like criticism I do actually enjoy your videos and considering some of the comments you've received you do seem to have managed to make a few fundamentalist Christians think beyond the prejudices of their environment so I guess you're making a difference. Keep up the good work. Just don't stop questioning your own beliefs as many of the other atheist activists on YouTube unfortunately seem to have done ;-)
@TheraminTrees : In one of your videos you said something like "if people don't want to you think you don't want them as friends". This seems to suggest your views really aren't that controversial since otherwise you'd realise that you'd lose most if not all of your friends if you applied that strategy, some worth keeping nevertheless... which substantiates my initial hypothesis ;-)
You are not wasting your breath. I just found you today. I have decided, but I have not made it all the way through the process yet. Having people such as yourself share their experiences and information helps me on more levels than I can say to you. I was a religious fundamentalist. Gave up holidays, kept the saturday sabbath, was scared of eternal fires. I no longer believe in any one god at all. Nor hell. But I find myself fighting years of indoctrination. So thank you.
I know that personally, if it weren't for people challenging my beliefs, I never would have thought about it long enough to consider any alternative. No matter how obstinate I was during the conversation, it gave me a reason to think a little harder about what I believed and highlighted inconsistencies that I had already uncovered and brushed aside as "my imagination".
It is never pointless to press someone to think harder, it will either eventually benefit them, or those witnessing.
I really like your argumentation but there's a little mistake in the video. There has never been a majority of people beliving in a flat earth. That is a common misinformation
@polkiuz I've had it put to me that the flat earth thing was a misconception — when I've asked, it's turned out they thought I was referring to the Middle Ages or something. I'm not. I'm referring to a time long before — around 6th cent. BC.
Permit me to serve as evidence for this one, as I was undecided as to what to think in terms of faith until I took a look at Theramin's videos. They helped guide me to a more rational manner of thinking, and I am thankful for that. The only difference being that I haven't turned to the atheist side of the table, but instead have switched to Taoism. I don't believe the religion so much as I do the original philosophy (which ironically states not to turn the philosophy into a religion).
"...putting a video out there, or a book, means that it will be available should their preparedness to listen change." Such a lovely sentiment. In my head it just sounded like "Hey, theists? We know you hate us. We know you don't give a shit what we think. But if you wanna come check us out, we've got pamphlets."
I don't know how I managed to be here on YouTube for years and never stumbled upon your videos until recently. I'm still working through your back catalog, and this one is great IMO. My only comment is that debating with the opposition is NOT to attempt to convert the opposition directly. That almost never works. It's to put both sides out there together so that the observers can come to an informed conclusion of their own.
@renegade4dio Thanks. I know some people's goal in debate is full-on conversion. Personally, my own goal in debate is generally just to highlight any problems I see in the material that's being put forward, not attempt a conversion — or rather de-conversion. I tend to view that as a private, reflective process.
2:00 i agree, i very much enjoy watching these videos even though i already know my beliefs its just interesting and for all i know i could always find out something new.
@klooger28 Cheers. Some videos I do just because it gets tiring hearing the same thing time and again — the 'preaching to the converted' line was cropping up like a weed a few months ago.
Unfortunately I find atheist videos on YouTube (with few otable exceptions such as Coughlan's) tend to make me more prone to believing in Creationism.
This from an someone practically born an arch-agnostic. So many new-atheist arguments are simply based on faulty reasoning writ large and the defense of evolution is so obnoxious that Creationism seems the lesser of the evils.
Atheists support evolution for all the wrong reasons. Sometimes preaching can disconvert too.
@DarkwingScooter Not a clue what you're talking about. None of the atheists I know defend evolution for 'obnoxious reasons', but because the evidence is overwhelming. And creationists arguments are collapsed easier than a house of cards. Not that it's an either/or. Obviously up to you what you want to go with, but I don't recognise anything of what you've said here in my own experiences.
@TheraminTrees We should never accept scientific theories because evidence supports it, I would go so far as to say that this is the first essential principle distinguishing science from other methods of reasoning.
YouTube atheists want to claim that you can hold facts independently of beliefs. That belief is a faulty form of reason. I am sure you have seen the illogical non-stamp collector argument or the absurd Dawkin's experiment where he attempts to show that reason transcends belief.
@DarkwingScooter I didn't say we should accept scientific theories because evidence supports it. I said the atheists I know defend evolution [ie against creationism] because the evidence is overwhelming: it completely falsifies the creationist claims we hear time and again. In turn, creationist attempts to falsify evolution rely on deliberate misrepresentation — *that* I find obnoxious.
@TheraminTrees My problem is the defense of evolution on the basis of overwhelming evidence, this is incorrect.
The reason to accept Darwin's theory (not evolution, but evolution by natural selection) is a principle that you can test with a tabletop experiment. It is the principle that systems which reproduce will tend to reproduce those variations brought on by natural means which are successful.
It is the defense of evolution on unsientific grounds that give creationists ammunition.
@DarkwingScooter 'My problem is the defense of evolution on the basis of overwhelming evidence'
—I refer you to my previous answer on falsification, which you've bypassed in your reply. Evidence is of course relevant to the issue because the theory of evolution makes many predictions, and areas of potential falsification are indicated — but have yet to be realised by creationist. Instead, unfounded falsifications are asserted — eg no transitional fossils.
@TheraminTrees You have to take into account that YouTube text boxes are small and the issues complex.
Creationists are correct that the set of Neo-Darwinian theories constitute a descriptive model (i.e. not scientific in the strict sense) based on the testable and falsifiable hypothesis put forward by Darwin on the basis of his evidence.
The evidence comes before the theory and the description in terms of it.
Not Science: Clades come about exclusively as the result of Neo-Darwinian Natural Selection.
Science: Natural selection drives species variation.
Not-Science: All species variation comes about as the result of natural selection.
We accept Ockham's razor as a pragmatic (non-scientific) device to facilitate problem solving (science), but there is no obligation on nature to be simple and amenable to being readily understood.
@DarkwingScooter 'You have to take into account that YouTube text boxes are small and the issues complex.'
—Yes, and it's not entirely clear what you're doing here. You're not bringing any falsification against evolution. Neither are you defending creationist ideas on how we came about. You're claiming that atheist videos you find 'obnoxious' make you more prone to believing in creationism. I find that an extraordinary position for someone wanting to promote rigour. But that's it so far.
@TheraminTrees I am not attempting to falsify evolution.
My issue with the whole debate is that it is framed as a contest of Reason against Irrational belief (I will leave you to check on this).
If you frame it this way you contend that Natural Selection is a comprehensive theory rather than a explanation of natural phenomena in terms of simple falsifiable principles.
Even though these principles are falsifiable, we cannot prove that they are what acted on nature in any given instance.
@TheraminTrees Compare to Gravity. If you know that an apple was on a tree at time A and on the ground at time B AND that gravity was acting, can you know that the gravity was the force that made the apple move. Of course the answer is no.
Having a person (or god) move the apple in no way falsifies gravity, in the same way that creationism does not falsify evolution.
When you insist on evolution as the necessary actor you commit a logical fallacy and that is what give creationists ammunition.
@DarkwingScooter You're saying that 'obnoxious' atheist videos make you more prone to believing in creationism. I want you to explain that nonsensical leap. If someone does a poor video about the heliocentric solar system, I'm not going to start believing in the geocentric. If something has holes in it, it's out of the running. So. Explain this either/or logic you've got going, where you're finding yourself prone to believing in creationism.
@TheraminTrees Evolution vs. Creation is not the same type of dichotomy as Helio vs. Geocentric, these are two descriptions at the same level of analysis.
The choice between Evolution and Creation is not made on scientific grounds but on pragmatic ones. So if believing in creation makes me feel better, who are you to say I am wrong?
What's more: If believing in evolution makes you fall prey to logical errors such as the non-stamp collector argument it clearly does not aid in critical thinking.
@TheraminTrees "We're talking about the validity of theories"
We are talking about the epistemic basis upon which we decide the validity of theories. That is the door you open when you confuse science with metaphysics.
Science works because it does not offer commentary on the existence or non-existence of god: "I have no need for that hypothesis". Science can never disprove creationism because creationism is unsientific.
Following baying crowds does demonstrably lead to uncritical thought.
@DarkwingScooter 'Following baying crowds does demonstrably lead to uncritical thought.'
—So, not content with asserting a causal relationship that 'believing evolution makes you prey to logical errors', you now characterise those who believe evolution as 'following baying crowds'. You set stringent standards on accepting scientific theory, then say it's ok to accept creationism — whose answer every falsification with 'miracle' — if it 'makes you feel better'. What an obnoxious mess.
@DarkwingScooter What the hell are you talking about in your comments?
If you're trolling then you're doing a really good job and I recommend that TheraminTrees should stop feeding you(i'll stop too btw).
If you're serious about these comments then you have absolutely no understanding of science and you're the same intelligence level as Kent Hovind. Ken Ham
"so if believing in creation makes me feel better who are you to say i'm wrong"
seriously? are you an infant? do you have brain damage?
@jaktrep I am replying to specific questions put to me by the author of the video.
Why do you believe the world external exists in a way that corresponds directly to your experience of it. By introducing metaphysics into a debate about a physical phenomena you introduce epistemology and reveal the pragmatic basis for analysis of past events. If you think you can absolutely prove phenomenal reality you are no better than a creationist.
The correct response is to leave religion to the religious.
@DarkwingScooter 'I am replying to specific questions put to me by the author of the video.'
—No. You've descended into the most bizarre stream of utter fallacious bullshit, setting rigorious standards for others, then when it's shown up that you fall woefully short yourself, trying to wriggle out of explanations with accusatory red herrings. You characterise belief in evolution as 'following baying crowds', among other inexplicable drivel. You're a joke. And you're gone.
Preaching to the converted may galvanize you, but I think that in general it won't sharpen your arguments as much as discussion with the unconverted, since you won't get to hear the counter arguments to your own.
Btw, this presentation is well articulated verbally, but verging on pretence in my opinion. What the f**k is "very healthy curvaceous distributions" supposed to mean!?
@Zralf Thanks ;8) It's funny, comments like 'You're preaching to the converted' seem to suddenly gather momentum and become very popular. Maybe it's that kind of pseudo-wisdom clichés seem to give off.
I was working with a friend this summer, and we often had discussion about subjects on the news. On one occasion, I was for and he was against. We argued and both had valid points. A few months later, that same subject reemerged and we discussed it again. This time, I was the one against, because of all the points he had brought the last time, and he was for. We had effectively switched place.
I'm very inspired by this video. Being a quiet person, I constantly have doubts that my opinions are futile and that people won't listen to me. Thank you for reminding me that voicing an opinion is a worthwhile endeavor in itself.
Thank you. I needed to hear this. It seems a little overwhelming sometimes, especially in the U.S., to be continually reminded that most people are living in a trance of commercial/political/religious propogana. I feel compelled to do something about it, but I strongly suspect my efforts will not be very effective. I think your approach is excellent (showing the psychological dynamics behind uncritical thought) and that this is a big domino behind which many dominos are lined up to fall.
I also see the performative contradiction that the commenter acted out: He was preaching to you as one who disagrees with him. So, according to his theory, you are not going to listen to him anyway. So by his action it is revealed that he is not believing in his theory himself. It is just a self-detonating statement.
Though I am already an atheist I found myself often frustrated by my difficulty to state my position without allowing an accompanying swell of emotions at being refuted fallaciously at every turn, sometimes aggressively. These videos firstly, helped me to clarify the thinking behind my belief and secondly allowed me to say something reasonable and non-offensive that would diffuse any escalation of the issue. To those who are questioning their position I recommend your channel.
@Juliuspiper 'Are u familiar with fuzzy logic? I saw it in use here, and was curious to ask.'
—Yep, I remember 'Fuzzy Logic' was one of a plethora of titles, like 'Facts, Fallacies and Frauds in Psychology', that I marked my 'entry' into psychology in my teens. I was forever hanging round the psychology sections of bookshops.
I really enjoy videos like this, they help me build my arguments to the unconverted and they also give me a sense of community because I am seeing more and more people who follow reason. You're preaching to the converted but I want to know there are others like me, so keep it up.
I'm glad I saw this. I used to think that way, and even made a similar comment recently. I've never really had someone argue against that thought directly, like the way you do in this video. So thank you.
@oeruli yes. I've thought like that before and, indeed, some people are VERY set in their ways *cough*young earth creationists*cough* and will not be responsive to facts and reason but the vast majority of people in regard to the vast majority of issues are responsive.
i try not to make decisions when i have to. i see myself as incapable to think it all out. it kind of drives me insane, because i never come to conclusions.
I used to be a Christian and youtube helped me to see religion in its true light.
Started with TheAmazingAthiest (which is now just an entertainer)
Next to thunderfoot
Finally to the hard stuff. Books by Richard Dawkins and Steven Pinker.
I wasn't ignoring the facts while I was a Christian. I honestly thought that my religion was complete truth and every word of the Bible was 100% literal (except Revelation).
and you're very right about these videos being helpful for atheists who can feel very alone in America. It's hard feeling like there aren't any sane people in the world. I love science and it drives me nuts to be surrounded by people enjoying all the benifits of science, and then telling me I'm going to hell for believing science instead of myths.
Very good arguement. I have to admit that I tend to view creationists as brainwashed beyond reasoning with, especially when you hear things like the story Dawkins tells of the guy who got a Phd in geology and then gave it up because the science contradicted the bible, but I guess there are people that listen to reason, it just seems that they are such a small minority. (cont.)
Your videos were the first step in my conversion to reason from creationism. If it weren't for you, Thunderf00t, and AronRa I'd still be a creationist. So thanks!
@saintmichaelsarmoury Thank you for sharing that with me — I appreciate it. I don't often ask, but, as a matter of interest, is there a particular video or videos on my channel that spring to mind in regards to your conversion? I'm curious as to what it was that you connected with.
@saintmichaelsarmoury Wow your comment just changed my mind about another comment I made a few days ago where I said it was useless to debate with creationists (about the nephilimfree / donexodus debate).
Still I think that debating nephilim free sounds like beating a dead donkey and feeding a troll, but the debate is not useless or absolutely hopeless.
I feel that atheist are far more sympathetic with the wrong doings happening in the world today than the religious group in society. When you are not burdened with having to keep true to a set of believes you have more freedom to do and think as you like. To make your own decisions. I think this world would be a wonderful place if everyone was made to make up their own mind. I believe people as a whole are good but are often mislead, or unknowingly follow a path that is not their own.
0wetduck0 3 weeks ago
@0wetduck0 Definitely agree. But society has always felt an innate need to categorize ourselves (or prove me wrong here?). Can we achieve this level of open-mindedness without being too chaotic?
vforvoracious 1 week ago
Sadly - being a weary cynic myself - I would have to agree at least in part with the sentiments of the opinion in discussion.
It certainly is good to put the arguments out there... but unfortunately the way youtube is set up tends to encourage trolling & recreational bickering. Alas the stance of youtube as highlighted by events shows how difficult the situation can be. Individuals who want to stifle debate hide behind anonymity, abuse the DMCA & get away with it.
It just isn't a good forum.
SAHBfan 3 weeks ago
I first started seriously questioning religion with a silly show called ancient aliens. It is an alternate explanation of why we have religion based on the supernatural. With one source critically analyzing religious stories, I began to question the stories in other contexts until I reached where I am today
drewnut 3 weeks ago
I really appreciate your thoughts, to shame that you cover in your videos only narrow spectrum such as atheism. I would love to hear something about science, politics, monetary system, art etc from your reasoning, distance perspective.
Phi1eap 3 weeks ago
I agree with you and with the other comments, keep making videos. Although I'm not an 'atheist' or whatever term you prefer, I believe in God and love Jesus but I also enjoy the dialogue between opposing views. The difference in beliefs and ideas is what makes us unique. The videos have made me question a lot of my beliefs and why I believe what I believe and have only made my resolve stronger. Have been and will continue to be a subscriber.
JMar1082 3 weeks ago
'very healthy, curvacious distributions.' I hope that was intentional :)
CriticalThought09 3 weeks ago
Becoming an atheist wasn't that hard of a road to travel for me. I was't pulled into any religion even as a child, I wasn't "Christened", wasn't "Circumcised", and was never made to go to church, pretty lucky to be honest.
I had a far harder time breaking free of the conspiracy shit to tell you the truth, its quite embarrassing to see people that think everything is some sort of conspiracy, knowing I used to be like that too. The mind is so easily infected with irrationality. Handle with care.
123backinyerface 3 weeks ago
Another great video. :)
DonnieSeriously 3 weeks ago
If nothing else, the perspective of a lifelong atheist, like me, and a converted/deprogrammed ex-Christian like you is going to throw up differences of opinion. As I've point out in a recent video of mine, the mere fact of being an atheist doesn't speak to the epistemology behind that decision.
COEXISTential 3 weeks ago
@COEXISTential Indeed — I've had many interesting conversations about what people feel these different experiences have given them, which again differs between individuals in each group. All of which diversity serves to highlight the sorry inadequacy of the stereotypical 'angry-with-god' atheist — in itself an oxymoronic concept.
TheraminTrees 3 weeks ago
I couldn't put a date on the moment I became atheist, but watching videos like this made it easier to accept the fact that I was one. I like reality and there is so much more in atheist / secular videos. Some theist stuff is good for a laugh though.
dondude69 1 month ago
Also that discussion with the people we disagree with can lead us to reassess and strengthen our own beliefs and reasoning. They can lead us to new topics we may not have otherwise encountered, and we can be further equipped to discuss our beliefs with both those we agree and disagree with.
quinterbeck 2 months ago
My indoctorination as a child was very damaging to me. Religion did nothing but make me feel like I wasnt good enough. The problem was I had no idea how to not be religious. I tried several religions but they all felt the same. Wrong. Learning how to think for myself without influence has made my life worth living. And atheists need fellowship too. I still love videos life yours as much as when I first became a freethinker and couldn't be more thankful for them.
ani451 2 months ago 2
You're certainly not wasting your breath, sir. You (along with other YouTube contributors like Evid3nc3 and EdwardCurrant) were instrumental in my de-conversion from whole-hearted belief in fundamentalist Christianity. So THANK YOU. Everything you say in this video is bang on... people like me (the "converted") need to hear the things you say. You never know what difference it could mean to them, if they care at all about reason. Keep on preaching to the converted!
jcol3000 2 months ago
I'm probably not the first to say it, but, as an atheist myself, I get lots of usefulness out of these kinds of videos. Not because I enjoy listening to things I already agree on, it's because I can learn new things, build my own world view and understanding of these issues. These videos help other atheists become better at explaining themselves to others, and through that, more and more of us will be better equipped to argue against ignorance.
alinkyng 2 months ago
watched it again. still great!
sendiulo 3 months ago
Great vid TheraminTrees! I find that comment to be like when the fundamentalists say atheism is a religion or it requires faith. Don't they feel religion and faith are positive attributes? I'm never sure if I should correct them or thank them.
If preaching to the converted is a waste of time...I guess that clears up some time on Sunday mornings :D
erkd1 3 months ago
Thank you :)
StupidWiz 3 months ago
It isn't true that you are preaching to the converted. It's people like you that stir something, either in those that are undecided, or even those that have decided very much the other way. One of the channels you list on your profile page is Zinnia, and her videos were one of the leading factors in taking me from unquestioning Christian to critically thinking atheist. It's individuals like you that address compelling reasons to reassess our own beliefs.
Aphotic0221 4 months ago 7
@Aphotic0221 Thank you. It's funny but me and a few folks I've spoken to on here have sometimes found that really vociferous theists, who've come at us aggressively, were actually in the throes of great doubt and turmoil because of the fact questions were being offered on YT that they had no answer to — they later come to us privately as atheists, mortified at how they behaved, but I'm just glad they made it through. And Zinnia's great isn't he — great integrity, focus and of course humour.
TheraminTrees 4 months ago 3
@TheraminTrees He's definitely something else. He triggered a lot in me in the way of immobilisation, like you described with your Mr. Elliot. Your videos have also been incredibly helpful in sorting my thoughts out between theism and atheism, and the reasoning behind any of it. I've also found a great deal of parallels, especially in your Instruction Manual To Life video, as my experience has not been so different in the past decade.
Aphotic0221 4 months ago
I wouldn't say that I'm mortified at how I behaved. I understand now many of the feelings I had back then, and why I felt the way I did, and I think it'd be irresponsible not to apply this new found understanding. I also recognize that everything I went through has strengthened greatly my awareness and ability to critically think, and I too am simply glad that I made it. Thank you, Mr. Trees. :)
Aphotic0221 4 months ago
I got to say, youtube deconverted me. On top of that, I've learned how to support my argument through youtube videos.
purewilderness 5 months ago
I've learned a lot from your videos. Thank you for making those excellent videos!
monkeyundertree 5 months ago
its funny, but i can generally tell when someone who used to be a fundamnetal religious type, has 'converted' to atheism, because they wind up treating the identification with that label of atheist, in almost the same way they treated the identification with the label of religious.
In other words, I can spot a 'converted' a mile away.... it isn't the individual beliefs so much as the desire to attach a label to our identities and defend it.
anyone agree? (lol... irony IS intentional)
Iamnotamessiah 6 months ago
Thanks for helping me feel like I'm not alone! I feel somewhat that way living with a YEC and all.
DoctorNociceptor 7 months ago
@DoctorNociceptor 'living with a YEC and all'
—The phrase 'an elephant in the room' sometimes seems woefully inadequate ;8)
TheraminTrees 7 months ago 4
@TheraminTrees Mastodon in the room, surely?
COEXISTential 3 weeks ago
@COEXISTential LOL
TheraminTrees 3 weeks ago
"Very healthy curvaceous distributions", best chat-up line ever.
PureZOOKS 8 months ago
Excellent..
hatke159 8 months ago
"converts?" you make atheism sound like a religion. you ought to use "de-converted." just saying. :)
yinyangcali 9 months ago
Its absolutely NOT true. Without people like you, who gather rational arguments without aggression, I myself may never have questioned my beliefs. I grew up in a religious home, Christianity being The Truth and nothing else was applicable. I was born and bred to further the Christian concept by pumping out good Christian babies, even encouraged to marry young and get started.
Wiithout people who spoke out, that would have been the sum of my life. I'm so thankful people like you SPEAK OUT.
DeadlyChinchilla 10 months ago 29
@DeadlyChinchilla Thanks DeadlyChinchilla ;8)
TheraminTrees 10 months ago
I call it "activist apathy" when someone goes out of their way to say your statement doesn't matter to them or anyone else.
BalzacOfTheTubes 10 months ago
I totally agree :)
calmreason 10 months ago
thank you again ...
:)
ostrogotu 10 months ago
Excellent video. I spent many (too many maybe) hours arguing with Creationists on Usenet in the 90s. And no matter how intractable the target of my arguments and rebuttals, I was always convinced that even if my posts were falling on the deaf ears of the original Creationist poster, I knew that the "lurkers" were reading, seeing whose argument was more more convincing, or at least questioning their own assumptions about the topic. And that was worth the effort.
DeaconShadow 11 months ago
D'oh!!! That last comment was only meant as a response to glower125. Sigh.
Everstruggling 11 months ago
Thanks for such a great video. At one point I was training to be a Catholic priest. I didn't just believe, I BELIEVED in God. If you had met me 20 years ago, you would have been convinced that I was never going to change my mind. If it weren't for people "preaching to the converted" or "wasting their time on people who are never going to change"... I never would have changed. So... yeah... I'm kind of glad people waste their time explaining atheism to people.
Everstruggling 11 months ago 22
@Everstruggling Thanks for sharing this personal testimony. I still cringe at a line I wrote in a religious education essay: 'I am a christian and my views will never change!'
TheraminTrees 11 months ago 9
@TheraminTrees @glower125 Hmm... it's hard to tell if you are Islamic, crazy or seeing if I fall for Poe's Law. I'm going to go for some combination of the first two. So... 1. Are you seriously trying to tell me that your imaginary friend is better than my imaginary friend? 2. Yes, I worship myself: I get down on my knees and sing my praises mulitiple times everyday. I build buildings in which to perform rituals in my honour, and I show people my diary as proof they should worship me too.
Everstruggling 11 months ago
@Everstruggling From catechism to Atheism? well not much of a change. from one pagan belief to another pagan belief. you use to worship mithra, osiris, krishna, tamuz..etc now you worship yourself and your desires.
glower125 11 months ago
how can ya spend so much time on such utter nonsense subjects ...
TomaCukor 11 months ago
Your videos inspire me and make me understand better how to help other people being harmed by religion. Keep it up :]
mnazz89 11 months ago
I got a question though: isnt the majority of the human populations actually only "registered believers" on paper or is it spesified that none is for example "christian" in only the terms that they follow christian traditions like chrismas and other similar "holy days" and not actually truly believe in the god they are following the religion of... to break it down: what and how do you define the "majority" of a religion?
or rather: what or how do the stats define them?
dr4coknight 1 year ago
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dr4coknight 1 year ago
Hello there, I'm just curious if you believe its best to have people converted, or is it best to have people develop understandings of themselves and their beliefs.......In other words, are you looking to have everyone accept athiest views, or are you trying to get people to become freed from their "sticky" unhealthy concepts? just curious
KTMONEY100 1 year ago
Excellent video, your points are simply put and impossible to fault. Of course people are converted by this debate- most of the best atheist debaters on Youtube or elsewhere are former Christian scholars who know their Bible by rote. See the Atheist Experience vids for just one example of an atheist who knows more about religion than anyone who tries to debate with him about it. Clearly his conversion did not happen overnight.
1955RodHot 1 year ago
The world has place for only two kinds of people: the "true believers" - the sheep who conform and obey; and the preachers - the wolves who manipulate and control. Atheists are the few deluded ones, too smart to be in one group and too kind to be in the other. Atheists have no place in this world. Atheists will be destroyed, willfully by one group, and unwittingly by the other.
greenjelly01 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 actually athiests are quickly growing in number as reasoned arguments debunking religions of all stripes are being spread thoroughout the world, principally by the internet, but also by books and documentaries and radio broadcasts. Leading thinkers like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens are opening people's eyes and making them question their religious beliefs on a daily basis. Far from being destroyed by theists, atheists are winning the battle.
1955RodHot 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 Your statement about only two groups — the 'true believer' sheep and the 'preacher' wolves — having a place in this world doesn't stand up. I was a 'true believer' — I obeyed/conformed. And I moved out of that space by myself: I wasn't taught atheism, I reasoned my own way. Your statement relies on a flatness/fixedness of outlook that does not hold in the real world. There may be dark ages of oppression — but oppressive regimes are overthrown all the time.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees Oppressive regimes are replaced by other oppressive regimes. Evolution shows that atheism will fail - cos atheism is not profitable. Theism is profitable in terms of money and power, and is a sustainable enterprise. The profit of atheism is not immediate. Atheism is profitable in the sense that socialism is profitable to the human society over long periods of time - a concept that the majority of humans are incapable of understanding.
greenjelly01 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 'Oppressive regimes are replaced by other oppressive regimes.'
—Not inevitably. And it sidesteps the point — you said atheism'll be destroyed. Not only will it be passed on, my own case shows it arises spontaneously without tutoring. 'Evolution shows that atheism will fail'
—It shows no such thing. Your assessment of 'profitability' ignores all kinds of strengths — eg it ignores the fitness of arguments, which if we apply selection principles gives atheism a great advantage. Etc.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees I wish "fitness of arguments" were a favorable trait for natural selection. The number of obese people I see sitting in McDonalds every day surely does not seem to suggest that. Religion has been sustained over the centuries by people who have held power (for noble reasons or otherwise). You cannot sustain atheism without atheists in power. I am not averse to what you do, I am just dismayed at the futility of it.
greenjelly01 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 'I wish "fitness of arguments" were a favorable trait for natural selection. The number of obese people I see sitting in McDonalds every day surely does not seem to suggest that.'
—That argument doesn't stand up either — it completely ignores the non-obese people. You came on here talking about the destruction of atheism. But none of the arguments have supported anything more than possible marginalisation. Thankfully your bleak futile outlook doesn't hold up.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 And by the way I'm not asserting that the fitness of arguments aids selection of the person holding the argument — I'm saying: in the selection of ideas, atheism is robust because its arguments and counter-arguments hold. They can also be determined from first principles — rather than having to be passed on. Hence even if there were no atheists on the planet at any point, it would arise again. The same could not be said for ideas that depend on indoctrination/proselytisation.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 This is probably all just a complicated rationalization so you can act like a complete dick. Then you can say you've decided to be a "leader" instead of a "follower".
pureevilfnord 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 So which one are you? A sheep, or a wolf?
mymovinpictures 1 year ago
@mymovinpictures I didn't say there are only two kinds of people - I said the world has place for only two kinds. I am an atheist, and this world will kill me for it.
greenjelly01 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 Umm, you do know that everyone dies, right? It's not the world (such a vague term for a murderer) that will kill you, and you won't die because you're an atheist. You'll die because you're made of cells that eventually lose their ability to replicate themselves. Or maybe you'll get hit by a bus. Or get cancer.
mymovinpictures 1 year ago
@mymovinpictures ...or bonk myself to death with a soft object, seeing the stupidity of some of the comments here. You missed my point completely.
greenjelly01 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 I'll ignore the insult since there are too many of them in the anonymity of the internet to take seriously. But tell us, since you seem to know so much about it, how (or even why) the "world" can possibly kill you for being an atheist. Aren't there atheists who have lived to a ripe old age? And aren't there more atheists and other non-sheep, non-wolf-type characters than ever before, with that number growing larger still?
mymovinpictures 1 year ago
@mymovinpictures dude you don't get it do you? I meant that the deluded people in this world do not like atheists. Go out in Alabama or Tennessee and say you are an atheist, you will be shot before you step back on your driveway. No politician in the US can dare say he even doubts the existence of god and hope to win an election. People get evicted, suspended, fired, and bodily injured simply for being atheists. This is not a fight atheists are going to win simply by "rational conversation".
greenjelly01 1 year ago
@greenjelly01 Um, I grew up in Mississippi. No one ever shot me for being an atheist. And this fight IS being won by rational conversation, or at least rational thought. How do you think the numbers of atheists are growing? They're talking to each other and proving that atheism isn't just one person's crazy idea. Look at the numbers. Atheists are the largest minority of any kind in this country now (~15% of the population), and those numbers are GROWING.
mymovinpictures 1 year ago
@mymovinpictures You'd think by now people in general would have realized there are more than two options. I blame the left brain right brain duality. left or right? I say spin in a circle. up or down.? i say up is an illusion. it's outward in all directions. Every time i hear a choice between two, I remember 3 and 4 and so on. Perspective is key.
derman077 1 year ago
Ithink this "Preaching to the converted" statement is more like religious mafia agreement. if you dont try to steal my sheep o will not try to steal yours.
Everyone is naturally trying to maintain censorship around them. that why people get angry when they see something different. it is because this example may influence someone in the group.
that is especially important for parents who always try to limit kids choices and available information.
deltaxcd 1 year ago
Very good reasoning. I agree with you completely, even though we're on opposite sides of the atheist/theist debate.
gsco82 1 year ago
dude subscribed...
MrBigEnchilada 1 year ago
It may not be an utter waste of time to make arguments, but the truth is, when individuals or societies do change their opinions, it is typically a long, slow process. I usually try not to argue people out of their religion, because I tend to subscribe to Marx's theory of religious alienation. Religion expresses a desire for ideal human relations that cannot be realized under existing social conditions. Thus, people are unlikely to abandon religion as long as capitalism rules.
LowestOftheDead 1 year ago
@LowestOftheDead 'when individuals or societies do change their opinions, it is typically a long, slow process.'
—Every journey starts with a first step.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
I agree that it's important to challenge people's views, these videos aren't pointless at all. BUT, surely if religious faith is not founded in reason, we can't unconvince a believer using reason?
WtFCBermudaCake 1 year ago
@WtFCBermudaCake Something might not be founded in reason — but that doesn't mean that reason cannot be applied to it. There've been aspects of my life — social, political, etc. — where there've were questions I just wasn't asking. I wasn't aware of the questions, and was 'going with the flow'. As I've become aware of the questions, I've been able to use reason to begin contemplating the answers.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
Great video, I've been trying to convince people of this for a long time.
geoffpot 1 year ago
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DystopianEmpire01 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees Theramin, another 'nice video' lol, but I was surprised you didn't point out the obvious contradiction in that for someone to even leave a comment like that they must suppose that they are capable of changing your opinion. XD
Zerosmelt 1 year ago
This is all just discourse for the individuated.
jk
Kitt0000 1 year ago
The problem with almost everyone I encounter in decade is that when they finally open their mind for a new set of ideas, they tend to become just as closedminded about that new set of ideas as they were about their previously held set of ideas. Nearly everyone has a whole bunch of dogmatic beliefs and both educated people and ignorant people alike tend to get hostile when you argue against them.
OutOfTheBoxThinker 1 year ago
@OutOfTheBoxThinker There can be hostility when talking about beliefs. I think the trouble is that to have effective communication, you need both parties to be receptive to that communication. It won't work when both, or one or the other are hostile. And that unfortunately describes a vast amount of interactions, which quickly get derailed through personal insults and insinuations.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees : I couldn't agree more, although I don't think you have any idea how pervasive this really is and how much it limits progress.
OutOfTheBoxThinker 1 year ago
@OutOfTheBoxThinker 'I don't think you have any idea how pervasive this really is and how much it limits progress.'
—See — that's an assumption right there that you're now making about me — right at the start of this interaction, you've mentally limited my ability in your mind when you don't know what I think. Would you like to rethink?
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@Theramin : I said "I don't think you have any idea", not "I know you don't have any idea". It's an unproven hypothesis, not an assumption.
Most people aren't able to distinguish hypothesis, assumption and fact, though, especially when they're relying on some sort of authority, whether secular or religious... and the more trust people have in said authority, the more hostile they tend to get when that authority is questioned as they consider youir questioning as a personal attack against them.
OutOfTheBoxThinker 1 year ago
@OutOfTheBoxThinker 'It's an unproven hypothesis, not an assumption.'
—No need for the speech about assumption versus hypothesis. I know the difference thanks — if we're going to be formal. I wasn't being formal. So my question stands — would you like to rethink?
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees : Sure I would, although I don't have enough data to either prove or disprove my initial hypothesis . To assess your familiarity with the pervasiveness of common human narrowmindedness and prejudice across boundaries of religion, ideology and level of education, I would need to know a lot more about you than I can tell from the videos you've posted on YouTube ;-)
OutOfTheBoxThinker 1 year ago
@OutOfTheBoxThinker 'To assess your familiarity with the pervasiveness of common human narrowmindedness and prejudice across boundaries of religion, ideology and level of education, I would need to know a lot more about you than I can tell from the videos you've posted on YouTube'
—My point exactly.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees : I never claimed otherwise. Anyway, in spite of what might seem like criticism I do actually enjoy your videos and considering some of the comments you've received you do seem to have managed to make a few fundamentalist Christians think beyond the prejudices of their environment so I guess you're making a difference. Keep up the good work. Just don't stop questioning your own beliefs as many of the other atheist activists on YouTube unfortunately seem to have done ;-)
OutOfTheBoxThinker 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees : In one of your videos you said something like "if people don't want to you think you don't want them as friends". This seems to suggest your views really aren't that controversial since otherwise you'd realise that you'd lose most if not all of your friends if you applied that strategy, some worth keeping nevertheless... which substantiates my initial hypothesis ;-)
OutOfTheBoxThinker 1 year ago
You are not wasting your breath. I just found you today. I have decided, but I have not made it all the way through the process yet. Having people such as yourself share their experiences and information helps me on more levels than I can say to you. I was a religious fundamentalist. Gave up holidays, kept the saturday sabbath, was scared of eternal fires. I no longer believe in any one god at all. Nor hell. But I find myself fighting years of indoctrination. So thank you.
HellhathnoFury711 1 year ago
There's a t in converted, you know.
Nulono 1 year ago
I know that personally, if it weren't for people challenging my beliefs, I never would have thought about it long enough to consider any alternative. No matter how obstinate I was during the conversation, it gave me a reason to think a little harder about what I believed and highlighted inconsistencies that I had already uncovered and brushed aside as "my imagination".
It is never pointless to press someone to think harder, it will either eventually benefit them, or those witnessing.
Guardian0487 1 year ago
He said "curvatious distributions". That's hot.
rmcdaniel423 1 year ago
I really like your argumentation but there's a little mistake in the video. There has never been a majority of people beliving in a flat earth. That is a common misinformation
polkiuz 1 year ago
@polkiuz I've had it put to me that the flat earth thing was a misconception — when I've asked, it's turned out they thought I was referring to the Middle Ages or something. I'm not. I'm referring to a time long before — around 6th cent. BC.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
It reminds me of Kris Kristofferssons song "to beat the devil"
Owlor 1 year ago
This video has given me a reason to keep stating my opinion, even though most of the listeners already agree. This is very motivating. Thank you!
Qternocq 1 year ago
so there really are smart and coherent videos on youtube! Thank you Theramin and qualia soup
stefanpowerfull 1 year ago
I used to be a Christian fundamentalist. I believed in some crazy shit. But now I'm an atheist. So yeah it's always possible to convert either way.
aserath01 1 year ago
Permit me to serve as evidence for this one, as I was undecided as to what to think in terms of faith until I took a look at Theramin's videos. They helped guide me to a more rational manner of thinking, and I am thankful for that. The only difference being that I haven't turned to the atheist side of the table, but instead have switched to Taoism. I don't believe the religion so much as I do the original philosophy (which ironically states not to turn the philosophy into a religion).
Mystrymeat 1 year ago
"...putting a video out there, or a book, means that it will be available should their preparedness to listen change." Such a lovely sentiment. In my head it just sounded like "Hey, theists? We know you hate us. We know you don't give a shit what we think. But if you wanna come check us out, we've got pamphlets."
pascalyuiop 1 year ago 2
I don't know how I managed to be here on YouTube for years and never stumbled upon your videos until recently. I'm still working through your back catalog, and this one is great IMO. My only comment is that debating with the opposition is NOT to attempt to convert the opposition directly. That almost never works. It's to put both sides out there together so that the observers can come to an informed conclusion of their own.
renegade4dio 1 year ago 22
@renegade4dio Thanks. I know some people's goal in debate is full-on conversion. Personally, my own goal in debate is generally just to highlight any problems I see in the material that's being put forward, not attempt a conversion — or rather de-conversion. I tend to view that as a private, reflective process.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
TherminTrees, you and QualiaSoup have opened my mind. Thank you both.
jediknight36 1 year ago 2
@jediknight36 Cheers!
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
2:00 i agree, i very much enjoy watching these videos even though i already know my beliefs its just interesting and for all i know i could always find out something new.
klooger28 1 year ago
@klooger28 Cheers. Some videos I do just because it gets tiring hearing the same thing time and again — the 'preaching to the converted' line was cropping up like a weed a few months ago.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
Great video.
Unfortunately I find atheist videos on YouTube (with few otable exceptions such as Coughlan's) tend to make me more prone to believing in Creationism.
This from an someone practically born an arch-agnostic. So many new-atheist arguments are simply based on faulty reasoning writ large and the defense of evolution is so obnoxious that Creationism seems the lesser of the evils.
Atheists support evolution for all the wrong reasons. Sometimes preaching can disconvert too.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter Not a clue what you're talking about. None of the atheists I know defend evolution for 'obnoxious reasons', but because the evidence is overwhelming. And creationists arguments are collapsed easier than a house of cards. Not that it's an either/or. Obviously up to you what you want to go with, but I don't recognise anything of what you've said here in my own experiences.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 3
@TheraminTrees We should never accept scientific theories because evidence supports it, I would go so far as to say that this is the first essential principle distinguishing science from other methods of reasoning.
YouTube atheists want to claim that you can hold facts independently of beliefs. That belief is a faulty form of reason. I am sure you have seen the illogical non-stamp collector argument or the absurd Dawkin's experiment where he attempts to show that reason transcends belief.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter I didn't say we should accept scientific theories because evidence supports it. I said the atheists I know defend evolution [ie against creationism] because the evidence is overwhelming: it completely falsifies the creationist claims we hear time and again. In turn, creationist attempts to falsify evolution rely on deliberate misrepresentation — *that* I find obnoxious.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 2
@TheraminTrees My problem is the defense of evolution on the basis of overwhelming evidence, this is incorrect.
The reason to accept Darwin's theory (not evolution, but evolution by natural selection) is a principle that you can test with a tabletop experiment. It is the principle that systems which reproduce will tend to reproduce those variations brought on by natural means which are successful.
It is the defense of evolution on unsientific grounds that give creationists ammunition.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter 'My problem is the defense of evolution on the basis of overwhelming evidence'
—I refer you to my previous answer on falsification, which you've bypassed in your reply. Evidence is of course relevant to the issue because the theory of evolution makes many predictions, and areas of potential falsification are indicated — but have yet to be realised by creationist. Instead, unfounded falsifications are asserted — eg no transitional fossils.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 2
@TheraminTrees You have to take into account that YouTube text boxes are small and the issues complex.
Creationists are correct that the set of Neo-Darwinian theories constitute a descriptive model (i.e. not scientific in the strict sense) based on the testable and falsifiable hypothesis put forward by Darwin on the basis of his evidence.
The evidence comes before the theory and the description in terms of it.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter
Science: Organisms are grouped into clades.
Not Science: Clades come about exclusively as the result of Neo-Darwinian Natural Selection.
Science: Natural selection drives species variation.
Not-Science: All species variation comes about as the result of natural selection.
We accept Ockham's razor as a pragmatic (non-scientific) device to facilitate problem solving (science), but there is no obligation on nature to be simple and amenable to being readily understood.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter 'You have to take into account that YouTube text boxes are small and the issues complex.'
—Yes, and it's not entirely clear what you're doing here. You're not bringing any falsification against evolution. Neither are you defending creationist ideas on how we came about. You're claiming that atheist videos you find 'obnoxious' make you more prone to believing in creationism. I find that an extraordinary position for someone wanting to promote rigour. But that's it so far.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 2
@TheraminTrees I am not attempting to falsify evolution.
My issue with the whole debate is that it is framed as a contest of Reason against Irrational belief (I will leave you to check on this).
If you frame it this way you contend that Natural Selection is a comprehensive theory rather than a explanation of natural phenomena in terms of simple falsifiable principles.
Even though these principles are falsifiable, we cannot prove that they are what acted on nature in any given instance.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees Compare to Gravity. If you know that an apple was on a tree at time A and on the ground at time B AND that gravity was acting, can you know that the gravity was the force that made the apple move. Of course the answer is no.
Having a person (or god) move the apple in no way falsifies gravity, in the same way that creationism does not falsify evolution.
When you insist on evolution as the necessary actor you commit a logical fallacy and that is what give creationists ammunition.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter You're saying that 'obnoxious' atheist videos make you more prone to believing in creationism. I want you to explain that nonsensical leap. If someone does a poor video about the heliocentric solar system, I'm not going to start believing in the geocentric. If something has holes in it, it's out of the running. So. Explain this either/or logic you've got going, where you're finding yourself prone to believing in creationism.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
@TheraminTrees Evolution vs. Creation is not the same type of dichotomy as Helio vs. Geocentric, these are two descriptions at the same level of analysis.
The choice between Evolution and Creation is not made on scientific grounds but on pragmatic ones. So if believing in creation makes me feel better, who are you to say I am wrong?
What's more: If believing in evolution makes you fall prey to logical errors such as the non-stamp collector argument it clearly does not aid in critical thinking.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter 'So if believing in creation makes me feel better, who are you to say I am wrong?'
—That's what's called a red herring. We're talking about the validity of theories, and now you want to flip it to 'what makes me feel better'.
'If believing in evolution makes you fall prey to logical errors'
—So you're now happy arbitrarily asserting a causal relationship where believing evolution makes you prey to logical errors.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 2
@TheraminTrees "We're talking about the validity of theories"
We are talking about the epistemic basis upon which we decide the validity of theories. That is the door you open when you confuse science with metaphysics.
Science works because it does not offer commentary on the existence or non-existence of god: "I have no need for that hypothesis". Science can never disprove creationism because creationism is unsientific.
Following baying crowds does demonstrably lead to uncritical thought.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter 'Following baying crowds does demonstrably lead to uncritical thought.'
—So, not content with asserting a causal relationship that 'believing evolution makes you prey to logical errors', you now characterise those who believe evolution as 'following baying crowds'. You set stringent standards on accepting scientific theory, then say it's ok to accept creationism — whose answer every falsification with 'miracle' — if it 'makes you feel better'. What an obnoxious mess.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 3
@DarkwingScooter What the hell are you talking about in your comments?
If you're trolling then you're doing a really good job and I recommend that TheraminTrees should stop feeding you(i'll stop too btw).
If you're serious about these comments then you have absolutely no understanding of science and you're the same intelligence level as Kent Hovind. Ken Ham
"so if believing in creation makes me feel better who are you to say i'm wrong"
seriously? are you an infant? do you have brain damage?
jaktrep 1 year ago 2
@jaktrep I am replying to specific questions put to me by the author of the video.
Why do you believe the world external exists in a way that corresponds directly to your experience of it. By introducing metaphysics into a debate about a physical phenomena you introduce epistemology and reveal the pragmatic basis for analysis of past events. If you think you can absolutely prove phenomenal reality you are no better than a creationist.
The correct response is to leave religion to the religious.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
@DarkwingScooter 'I am replying to specific questions put to me by the author of the video.'
—No. You've descended into the most bizarre stream of utter fallacious bullshit, setting rigorious standards for others, then when it's shown up that you fall woefully short yourself, trying to wriggle out of explanations with accusatory red herrings. You characterise belief in evolution as 'following baying crowds', among other inexplicable drivel. You're a joke. And you're gone.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 6
@jaktrep Yep, his increasing bullshit slurs and red herrings showed where things were headed.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
6 people miss-clicked.. ^_^ thumbs up all the way!
zottejakke3 1 year ago
Preaching to the converted may galvanize you, but I think that in general it won't sharpen your arguments as much as discussion with the unconverted, since you won't get to hear the counter arguments to your own.
Btw, this presentation is well articulated verbally, but verging on pretence in my opinion. What the f**k is "very healthy curvaceous distributions" supposed to mean!?
joebloggsgogglebox 1 year ago
I totally agree.
It also re-enforces previously held beliefs.
thomasramapuram 1 year ago
i know it registers just one thumbs up, but i have this weird tendency to click it every time i agree with a point, i clicked it many times here :)
Zralf 1 year ago
@Zralf Thanks ;8) It's funny, comments like 'You're preaching to the converted' seem to suddenly gather momentum and become very popular. Maybe it's that kind of pseudo-wisdom clichés seem to give off.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
I was working with a friend this summer, and we often had discussion about subjects on the news. On one occasion, I was for and he was against. We argued and both had valid points. A few months later, that same subject reemerged and we discussed it again. This time, I was the one against, because of all the points he had brought the last time, and he was for. We had effectively switched place.
I was amused.
TDelamay 1 year ago 2
I'm very inspired by this video. Being a quiet person, I constantly have doubts that my opinions are futile and that people won't listen to me. Thank you for reminding me that voicing an opinion is a worthwhile endeavor in itself.
myfinalf8heaven 1 year ago
you videos are very well put together and dont seem to just shurt the opposer down. very nice indeed.
draconshain 1 year ago
To the moderate, understanding, and thinking Christian, a simple video makes all the difference.
Trust me, I was one.
TheCelticNinja 1 year ago 3
Thank you. I needed to hear this. It seems a little overwhelming sometimes, especially in the U.S., to be continually reminded that most people are living in a trance of commercial/political/religious propogana. I feel compelled to do something about it, but I strongly suspect my efforts will not be very effective. I think your approach is excellent (showing the psychological dynamics behind uncritical thought) and that this is a big domino behind which many dominos are lined up to fall.
MrSteveSpears 1 year ago
I also see the performative contradiction that the commenter acted out: He was preaching to you as one who disagrees with him. So, according to his theory, you are not going to listen to him anyway. So by his action it is revealed that he is not believing in his theory himself. It is just a self-detonating statement.
heikophilo 1 year ago
Though I am already an atheist I found myself often frustrated by my difficulty to state my position without allowing an accompanying swell of emotions at being refuted fallaciously at every turn, sometimes aggressively. These videos firstly, helped me to clarify the thinking behind my belief and secondly allowed me to say something reasonable and non-offensive that would diffuse any escalation of the issue. To those who are questioning their position I recommend your channel.
orpheneritus 1 year ago
Theramin, firstly congrat. abou your ideas and the way of expressing them via utube. And secondly I have a question for u.
Are u familiar with fuzzy logic? I saw it in use here, and was curious to ask.
Juliuspiper 1 year ago
@Juliuspiper 'Are u familiar with fuzzy logic? I saw it in use here, and was curious to ask.'
—Yep, I remember 'Fuzzy Logic' was one of a plethora of titles, like 'Facts, Fallacies and Frauds in Psychology', that I marked my 'entry' into psychology in my teens. I was forever hanging round the psychology sections of bookshops.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago
An interesting video to reflect upon after watching some of the videos on conformity by various people.
RaWBLooD 1 year ago
I really enjoy videos like this, they help me build my arguments to the unconverted and they also give me a sense of community because I am seeing more and more people who follow reason. You're preaching to the converted but I want to know there are others like me, so keep it up.
Makszi 1 year ago
@Makszi Remember to find your own arguments for issue like these before watching such videos, you might be surprised at what you are capable of.
RaWBLooD 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nice video! Well done! :)
prophetofpeace2010 1 year ago
The "critical thinking" and "faith cake" videos were some of the most influential to me.
freethinker923 1 year ago
Some of them will listen. I was one of them.
freethinker923 1 year ago
Beautiful animation!
jas16899 1 year ago
I'm glad I saw this. I used to think that way, and even made a similar comment recently. I've never really had someone argue against that thought directly, like the way you do in this video. So thank you.
oeruli 1 year ago
@oeruli yes. I've thought like that before and, indeed, some people are VERY set in their ways *cough*young earth creationists*cough* and will not be responsive to facts and reason but the vast majority of people in regard to the vast majority of issues are responsive.
prophetofpeace2010 1 year ago
i try not to make decisions when i have to. i see myself as incapable to think it all out. it kind of drives me insane, because i never come to conclusions.
lordfumblesquid 1 year ago
Your videos are quite insightful. Thank you for sharing your wisdom!
BiowareNut 1 year ago
Excellent videos. You've got a new subscriber.
shortna 1 year ago
I used to be a Christian and youtube helped me to see religion in its true light.
Started with TheAmazingAthiest (which is now just an entertainer)
Next to thunderfoot
Finally to the hard stuff. Books by Richard Dawkins and Steven Pinker.
I wasn't ignoring the facts while I was a Christian. I honestly thought that my religion was complete truth and every word of the Bible was 100% literal (except Revelation).
GroogFish 1 year ago
I wouldn't call it preaching to the converted because these types of videos aided me in converting
zidex 1 year ago
Wonderful rebuttals of religion. Nice pointing out all of the logical fallacies you commit when you "reason" with religious thoughts.
Nuker1337 1 year ago
Gosh damn I really believe it to be impossible for you to make a shit video, and I am glad . Best freaking Youtube channel ever.
marcuelcajon 1 year ago
and you're very right about these videos being helpful for atheists who can feel very alone in America. It's hard feeling like there aren't any sane people in the world. I love science and it drives me nuts to be surrounded by people enjoying all the benifits of science, and then telling me I'm going to hell for believing science instead of myths.
Primalxbeast 1 year ago
Very good arguement. I have to admit that I tend to view creationists as brainwashed beyond reasoning with, especially when you hear things like the story Dawkins tells of the guy who got a Phd in geology and then gave it up because the science contradicted the bible, but I guess there are people that listen to reason, it just seems that they are such a small minority. (cont.)
Primalxbeast 1 year ago
Your videos were the first step in my conversion to reason from creationism. If it weren't for you, Thunderf00t, and AronRa I'd still be a creationist. So thanks!
saintmichaelsarmoury 1 year ago 54
@saintmichaelsarmoury Thank you for sharing that with me — I appreciate it. I don't often ask, but, as a matter of interest, is there a particular video or videos on my channel that spring to mind in regards to your conversion? I'm curious as to what it was that you connected with.
TheraminTrees 1 year ago 9
@TheraminTrees I watched all of your videos that you and qualiasoup had at the time but "instruction manual for life" particularly stuck with me.
saintmichaelsarmoury 1 year ago
@saintmichaelsarmoury Wow your comment just changed my mind about another comment I made a few days ago where I said it was useless to debate with creationists (about the nephilimfree / donexodus debate).
Still I think that debating nephilim free sounds like beating a dead donkey and feeding a troll, but the debate is not useless or absolutely hopeless.
synsei1 1 year ago