I've studied gnostic and new age teachings for years before Jesus took over my life. The ideas and concepts in The Shack are not new. Using the 'Holy Spirit' to tell lies is like the biggest no-no in the Bible. Please pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal whether the teachings in The Shack are true or not. There is no 'secret knowledge/wisdom' to know God. To know God you must turn your life over to Jesus. Its not WHAT you know, its WHO you know. That's Christianity. Gospel not in The Shack once.
Hi everyone, I'm trying to get the word out. Need a Christmas gift for someone special? Why not give a supernatural adventure that will invoke the imagination. Young or old, "Second World" by R.M.Wagoner will bring readers on a fictional journey into a world where the impossible is the reality. It has been compared to "The Shack" by William P. Young. Now available at Amazon! Secondworldbook(dot)com
It is interesting that you say that God sounds like Martin Luther in this book because I have read many Lutheran reviews and the vast majority of "orthodox" Lutherans think it is incompatible with Lutheranism because it promotes universalism and has a false understanding of the Lutheran position regarding the relationship between Law and Grace. They thought that it was more Reformed. It would be interesting to see what the Reformed think. This could be an interesting ecumenical case study.
@saralsth Thank you. From what I'm reading, liberal reformed Christians like the ELCA and the UCC are the ones who like it the most. More traditional churches and conservative Christians are not a fan.
Its been a great week here in Ireland. Our new priminister finally gave the pope a proper going over re: the lies, cover ups, and ongoing abuses of the catholic church in relation to innocent children. Telling him that the rule of law supercedes canon law. Not being from Ireland, you would never appreciate the control the church had on all levels of government, the police, and everyday people. The church was never questioned and we have a history of destroyed lives because of blind faith!
Im surprised that you never adressed the controversy that follows this book. Many believe that this book portrays the trinity in the wrong way. What is your take on this?
I take great enjoyment in listening to my audio CDs of "The Shack". It is indeed a wonderful tale! I hadn't made the connection to Job before, but thanks for the insight.
I also agree we you last comment about spitting out some 'seeds' along the way. I listen with a very Catholic heart and sometimes argue with the CD! XD
There is a difference between "Lutheran" (i.e. of or pertaining to Luther himself), and "protestant." The mature protestant position on divine law, developed after Luther's death by the protestant scholastics is somewhat closer to the Catholic position briefly outlined by Fr. Barron. See Ernest F. Kevan's book, _The Grace of Law_
Of course it's a Protestant rendering of the gospel. And if there was any mental trauma boomer Catholicism gave us it was the complete mystery and detachment of God, one which was answered by the Jesus movement of the 60's and 70's. The Shack really tackles evangelicalism and ITS inherint, albeit hidden, legalism. The Shack came of necessity to clarify what Luther and Calvin stirred up, and also which the Catholic Church hid entirely. I hope with all my being the God of the Shack is the real God
Good review until you interjected a bit of Catholicsm into it...The problem is that in your understanding of the Bible if it doesn't line up with your paradigm of Catholiscism then you must fit the round peg into the square hole. Luther wrestled with many scriptures about the law and grace, like
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
When I came to understand Grace as set forth in the Bible I had to leave the Catholic church
My favorite part of this book was where Jesus said, there are many roads that don't lead to anywhere but Jesus was willing to go down any road to find you and make you into a bother/Sister of Papa. I'm Catholic and ive always held those beliefs, and i have a Baptist friend who thinks if that if the children in africa have never heard of Jesus and "Dont know him" in a literal sense, are going to hell. Religion is an institution created by man, i don't believe God discriminates.
@CJTWO , I believe in God and i have Christian values but i don't believe God is so evil to send "non-believers" to hell just because they were raised in a different atmosphere. I am a Catholic but i do point out a lot of the hypocrisy in the church when it comes to overly decorated churches (even all christian denomintations) when the money shouldn't go towards materialistic things and it should go towards helping the community and those in need. Not believing in being saved is not anti-bible
@Bugeda Hello stranger. You'll be pleased to know that the Church's position is that those who have never heard God's word are not necessarily damned, but those who have heard and reject it are.
Also, decorating churches might seem hypocritical, but it is done with the intention of giving glory to God - just as we do when we do charitable works. In fact, the Church is the largest charitable organisation in the world, and has recently been running at a loss - purposefully.
@Bugeda I suggest you read a book by Wayne Grudem called "Bible Doctrine". You can get it on Amazon. If it isn't a Biblical principal then you are just picking and choosing your beliefs based on what you think is right according to how you feel. Feelings are real, they're just not always right. In light of Pascals wager you might want to know what you belielve. It could effect your eternity. Even the demons believe Jesus is the Christ and they shudder.
@CJTWO I pass no judgement on you or your beliefs or where you will or will not go when you die and i think it is morally wrong for anyone else to do the same. Religion was created by man, God is above religion. Many good people of faith are arrogant hypocrites when they preach and look down on people who don't believe what they believe. Only God knows what is in someones heart, and i think it is unchristian-like to assume that anyone is in hell.
I read the book and enjoyed it very much, I know that it was a make believe story based on principles of truth, every ones Journey with Christ is different and he relates to us at where we r at. You spoke really well thank you for you commentary
Sure. God is, in himself, a play of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, precisely because God "is" love. There must be, from all eternity, a play of lover, beloved, and love within the very essence of God. Jesus makes the Son iconically available to us within history, just as the Church makes the Spirit iconically apparent.
@wordonfirevideo can God ever be "more than" a trinity? In other words, if God is infinite, then He can "be" any "thing" He wants to be (admittedly the limitations of the English language don't allow for a graceful statement about this). Is it possible that we humans say "trinity" because it's what we can wrap our finite minds around??
@sterlingrose33 I know your question isn't for me, but I would like to try answering. When we say God is a Trinity, we don't limit Him even though the only idea we have of "persons" is finite. He can be only Himself--"I am who am." God said He's a Trinity, not us; we simply believe what God has told us. This is the most sublime mystery of Christianity that you have touched upon. If it seems to limit God to you, perhaps you misunderstand it. See the Summa Theologica, First Part, questions 27-43.
@Jugglable "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." This is John 1:1-2 This tells us that Jesus (the Word) always existed, even prior to when he became man. Also Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." The word "our" is an early reference to the Trinity, it doesn't say "Let me create man in my image." Hope this helps.
@Jugglable The First passage of John deals with this, kinda. "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and like Father Barron mentioned in the Comments if their is a Lover (God) and a Beloved (the Word/ Jesus) then there has to be a Love shared between them (the Holy Spirit). It is also said in the Nicene creed, (I am paraphrasing) "I believe in the holy Spirit who has spoken through the prophets". The Prophets are, obviously, Old Testament.
I picked up that book in a Charity shop. I found it totally embarrassing. I can only imagine that it was written for some sort of sentimental, middle-aged, non-aligned, vaguely protestant, wishy-washy, new-ageish, tepid feminist American. Certainly not for an orthodox, practicising Catholic. Why bother to read this when there are any number of Catholic authors giving a Catholic point of view. My copy ended up in the recycling bin. It felt like all the things I am sad about in our modern church.
I read the book too and I enjoyed it very much. When you described "law" as a "structuring" it seemed quite evident that Christ, who is our source of grace "filled" the "structure" completely. And as scripture indicates, "Christ fulfilled the law." So I just thought it was a good description that compliments scripture quite well.
The one thing I really didn't like was the rejection of subsidiarity.
t is rather washed away in a lot of talk about the love of God for us and us loving God and each other. The book is basically sentimental, but its sentimentality is cleverly disguised behind common sense humor and the ordinariness of its protagonists. The great echo this book has found is only indicative of our despair.
@wolf1750: Father Barron addressed that wider question (about why God allows disorder in the universe) in one of his Faith Clips. I'm not sure if there's a video on it here, but it's on his Faith Clips CD set. I don't remember if it's on mp3 for downloading; if it's not, I say it should be. Faith Clips is *great stuff.*
All that pious talk of Father Barron doesn't help me one bit. I went yesterday to a "Matsuri" (folk-festival) here in Kyoto. Everyone seemed to have a great time. - Then I saw something, that ruined everything for me: A group of "volunteers" pushing on wheelchairs deformed children with pale little faces, unable to walk for life! Seeing this, it is inconceivable for me, how ANYONE can believe in a kind, personal, just God. The believers are masters in "looking the other way".
@wolf1750 Friend, believers in Christ are those who look, every day, at the crucified Lord. We look right into the face of the God who accompanies us in our deepest anguish. There is no religion that looks away from evil less than Christianity!
@wordonfirevideo Why look so far ... to a person, who either did not exist at all or suffered death VOLUNTARILY? Better look instead in the next hospital at children with bone-cancer or at people slowly starving in Africa and other places and ask yourself, how a PERSONAL, LOVING God can let this happen ! And don't bring up "FREE WILL" as an argument again! Innocent sufferers HAVE NO FREE WILL.
@wolf1750 Where do you think Catholic missionaries, nurses, doctors, and pastoral ministers go? They specialize in hanging out at hospitals where kids are dying, at nursing homes where old people are lonely, in villages in Africa and Asia where there is no food. They go there because they believe in a loving God, who identifies with the suffering of the world. Why does God permit evil? Take a good long look at the book of Job, and then at the cross of Christ.
@wordonfirevideo There may be many reasons, why these kind people help the suffering mankind, e.g. in order to earn a place in heaven ... But how they manage to believe in a PERSONAL, JUST and LOVING God is beyond my understanding. -
Would you praise me as just and kind, if I would spit into YOUR face?
@wolf1750 I would praise you as just and kind because I certainly know I deserve worse for what I've done with my life. Such a God is exactly beyond everyone's understanding. He's infinite. We're not supposed to understand but to believe. That's why He's a mystery--"I am who am." What's impossible to believe is that the evil we so really and profoundly experience is meaningless dust that resolves into nothing. Who would believe in a comprehensible God? That's a projection. God bless you.
@richgr1123 This reply is the most interesting so far. At least, you admit, that the Christian God (should he exist after all) is incomprehensible. But then I have to ask, why did he create me (or let me develop into) an intellectual? A "seeker"? Is he just a God for the Bible-Belt-Dummies? And do I know, that HE is the ONE AND ONLY ??? As you know, there have been MANY Gods in various parts of the world and history claiming the same ...
@wolf1750 He created you as an intellectual because the love that satisfies the longings of our heart isn't just about blind emotions but integrates both the head and the heart. We have a love for both truth and the good; God is thus for everyone--the smart and the dumb, etc.
It depends on what you mean by "one and only." And historically, no, there has never been anything close to the Judeo-Christian God. There have been various forms of polytheism with hierarchies but nothing like this God.
@wordonfirevideo If God created us, he gave also SOME OF US the capacity to l think LOGICALLY. For centuries, thinkers of more importance than Fr. Barron and me have been unable to solve exactly this problem (theodize): How to reconcile the UNDESERVED suffering of INNOCENTS with a KIND and LOVING God. IF God created me, then he is responsible for me being just able to smile (painfully) about Fr. Barron's illogical and pious hogwash. SORRY!
@wolf1750 Seeing people caring for one other, loving the despite their physical defects makes it inconceivable to you that people believe in a kind, personal, just God? This kid of selfless love is definitely proof of a loving God. These people were definitely NOT "looking the other way". Nor are people like Mother Theresa. My friend, you seem to have your polls reveresed.
@jimmo42 The problem is, that these children will NEED help for the rest of their life, even just for emptying their bowls! Why do you only look at the helpers and not at the children? And as I said above, the helpers either do it for gaining credits in heaven ... or simply because they could not find a less depressing job. As for Mother Theresa, take a look, what Christopher Hitchens had to say regarding her ... Just for fun. -
@wolf1750: Christopher Hitchens is a man filled with hate. Period. I am even less interested in hearing what he has to say about anything than I am hearing about what Hitler thought about butterflies. If anything Hitchens would say about Mother Theresa is even closely related to "fun" for you, it says volumes about your character.
@wolf1750 Typical ignorant bigot. Dozens of books were written about Mother Teresa praising her devotion and love to the poor but little souls like yourself have to wait for a very controversial book (to say the least) by a famous provocateur, to jump on the occasion, embrace its ideas without serious questionning, and start promoting it since it fits your anti-religious views. This tells alot about the degraded level of the so-called neo atheist have reached.
@Enigmatik691 I have also read many other "very controversial" books (by Dennet, Kueng, Harris, Dawkins etc.) I bet, more than you ... It comes with my job ;-) Typical, that you pounce on a little aside and try to prove from that, that I embrace all doubters "without serious questioning". And who says, I am "promoting" Hitchens"? Although he is certainly more intelligent than you.
@wolf1750 Believers do not look the other way on the contrary, they look and see human suffering BUT they also see God dwelling in that suffering while unbelievers look but see only the suffering. So if you looked and saw only the miserable human condition then you must look deeper because God is not far.
@Enigmatik691 What kind of nonsense is this?! Where is a just and loving God in the undeserved lifelong suffering of innocents? Are you totally nuts?! This is an insult to God (in case he should exist after all). You are the best example for the fact, that people believe, what they WANT to believe. (And why do they? Because they NEED it PSYCHOLOGICALLY. It makes the certainty of death less frightening.)
@wolf1750 Nonsense to you since you ignore your faith. Dont you realize that in Christianity God love and sense of justice is crucified with the victims. This was God answer to human injustice and suffering: The cross.
@Enigmatik691 Bravo! You are outdoing YOURSELF ! Firstly: I HAVE NO faith, unfortunately! Secondly: If "in Christianity God love and sense of justice is crucified with the victims" (whatever you mean by that) then they do not exist in THIS, OUR wold any longer. Better: Sometimes they do, often they don't. That's, what I was saying. This God, that you are believing in, seems to be quite unreliable ;-)
Do the conversations with the Trinity solve the main question of this book: Why God allowed the abduction, (most likely sexual) mistreatment, and finally murder of the narrators beloved little daughter to happen? I DONT THINK SO! The basic question of this (otherwise well-written) book, the problem of Theodizee, is not being answered. I
My opinions sorta echo Fr. Barron. I went into it knowing it was "Protestant"-based, and I was pleasantly surprised to find most of it is aligned with 'mere' Christian theology common to both Catholicism and Protestantism.
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I've studied gnostic and new age teachings for years before Jesus took over my life. The ideas and concepts in The Shack are not new. Using the 'Holy Spirit' to tell lies is like the biggest no-no in the Bible. Please pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal whether the teachings in The Shack are true or not. There is no 'secret knowledge/wisdom' to know God. To know God you must turn your life over to Jesus. Its not WHAT you know, its WHO you know. That's Christianity. Gospel not in The Shack once.
djquiz6425 1 week ago
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Hi everyone, I'm trying to get the word out. Need a Christmas gift for someone special? Why not give a supernatural adventure that will invoke the imagination. Young or old, "Second World" by R.M.Wagoner will bring readers on a fictional journey into a world where the impossible is the reality. It has been compared to "The Shack" by William P. Young. Now available at Amazon! Secondworldbook(dot)com
rebekahwagoner 2 months ago
It is interesting that you say that God sounds like Martin Luther in this book because I have read many Lutheran reviews and the vast majority of "orthodox" Lutherans think it is incompatible with Lutheranism because it promotes universalism and has a false understanding of the Lutheran position regarding the relationship between Law and Grace. They thought that it was more Reformed. It would be interesting to see what the Reformed think. This could be an interesting ecumenical case study.
fkanga 3 months ago
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fkanga 3 months ago
@fkanga here is a reformed perspective: watch?v=pK65Jfny70Y
saralsth 3 months ago
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fkanga 3 months ago
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@saralsth Thank you. From what I'm reading, liberal reformed Christians like the ELCA and the UCC are the ones who like it the most. More traditional churches and conservative Christians are not a fan.
fkanga 3 months ago
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fkanga 3 months ago
I enjoyed your commentary. Although I liked the book, when I read it I felt it seemed a bit too protestant. Now I realize why.
Teenybel 5 months ago
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Its been a great week here in Ireland. Our new priminister finally gave the pope a proper going over re: the lies, cover ups, and ongoing abuses of the catholic church in relation to innocent children. Telling him that the rule of law supercedes canon law. Not being from Ireland, you would never appreciate the control the church had on all levels of government, the police, and everyday people. The church was never questioned and we have a history of destroyed lives because of blind faith!
newfrontier01 7 months ago
Im surprised that you never adressed the controversy that follows this book. Many believe that this book portrays the trinity in the wrong way. What is your take on this?
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AlexisSimcu 1 year ago
I take great enjoyment in listening to my audio CDs of "The Shack". It is indeed a wonderful tale! I hadn't made the connection to Job before, but thanks for the insight.
I also agree we you last comment about spitting out some 'seeds' along the way. I listen with a very Catholic heart and sometimes argue with the CD! XD
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There is a difference between "Lutheran" (i.e. of or pertaining to Luther himself), and "protestant." The mature protestant position on divine law, developed after Luther's death by the protestant scholastics is somewhat closer to the Catholic position briefly outlined by Fr. Barron. See Ernest F. Kevan's book, _The Grace of Law_
kkallebb 1 year ago
Of course it's a Protestant rendering of the gospel. And if there was any mental trauma boomer Catholicism gave us it was the complete mystery and detachment of God, one which was answered by the Jesus movement of the 60's and 70's. The Shack really tackles evangelicalism and ITS inherint, albeit hidden, legalism. The Shack came of necessity to clarify what Luther and Calvin stirred up, and also which the Catholic Church hid entirely. I hope with all my being the God of the Shack is the real God
bharfarar 1 year ago
Good review until you interjected a bit of Catholicsm into it...The problem is that in your understanding of the Bible if it doesn't line up with your paradigm of Catholiscism then you must fit the round peg into the square hole. Luther wrestled with many scriptures about the law and grace, like
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
When I came to understand Grace as set forth in the Bible I had to leave the Catholic church
promisedgrace 1 year ago
My favorite part of this book was where Jesus said, there are many roads that don't lead to anywhere but Jesus was willing to go down any road to find you and make you into a bother/Sister of Papa. I'm Catholic and ive always held those beliefs, and i have a Baptist friend who thinks if that if the children in africa have never heard of Jesus and "Dont know him" in a literal sense, are going to hell. Religion is an institution created by man, i don't believe God discriminates.
Bugeda 1 year ago
@Bugeda
Then you don't believe the Bible at all.
CJTWO 1 year ago
@CJTWO , I believe in God and i have Christian values but i don't believe God is so evil to send "non-believers" to hell just because they were raised in a different atmosphere. I am a Catholic but i do point out a lot of the hypocrisy in the church when it comes to overly decorated churches (even all christian denomintations) when the money shouldn't go towards materialistic things and it should go towards helping the community and those in need. Not believing in being saved is not anti-bible
Bugeda 1 year ago
@Bugeda Hello stranger. You'll be pleased to know that the Church's position is that those who have never heard God's word are not necessarily damned, but those who have heard and reject it are.
Also, decorating churches might seem hypocritical, but it is done with the intention of giving glory to God - just as we do when we do charitable works. In fact, the Church is the largest charitable organisation in the world, and has recently been running at a loss - purposefully.
/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w
TheHardout2005 1 year ago
@Bugeda I suggest you read a book by Wayne Grudem called "Bible Doctrine". You can get it on Amazon. If it isn't a Biblical principal then you are just picking and choosing your beliefs based on what you think is right according to how you feel. Feelings are real, they're just not always right. In light of Pascals wager you might want to know what you belielve. It could effect your eternity. Even the demons believe Jesus is the Christ and they shudder.
CJTWO 1 year ago
@CJTWO I pass no judgement on you or your beliefs or where you will or will not go when you die and i think it is morally wrong for anyone else to do the same. Religion was created by man, God is above religion. Many good people of faith are arrogant hypocrites when they preach and look down on people who don't believe what they believe. Only God knows what is in someones heart, and i think it is unchristian-like to assume that anyone is in hell.
Bugeda 1 year ago
I read the book and enjoyed it very much, I know that it was a make believe story based on principles of truth, every ones Journey with Christ is different and he relates to us at where we r at. You spoke really well thank you for you commentary
yaffayaffaful 2 years ago
This is about the best response to The Shack i've heard so far.
trupela 2 years ago
Before Jesus came to earth, was God already a Trinity? This may sound smart-assed, but is not intended to be.
Jugglable 2 years ago
Yes
icimblind 2 years ago
Sure. God is, in himself, a play of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, precisely because God "is" love. There must be, from all eternity, a play of lover, beloved, and love within the very essence of God. Jesus makes the Son iconically available to us within history, just as the Church makes the Spirit iconically apparent.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago 6
@wordonfirevideo can God ever be "more than" a trinity? In other words, if God is infinite, then He can "be" any "thing" He wants to be (admittedly the limitations of the English language don't allow for a graceful statement about this). Is it possible that we humans say "trinity" because it's what we can wrap our finite minds around??
sterlingrose33 2 years ago
@sterlingrose33 I know your question isn't for me, but I would like to try answering. When we say God is a Trinity, we don't limit Him even though the only idea we have of "persons" is finite. He can be only Himself--"I am who am." God said He's a Trinity, not us; we simply believe what God has told us. This is the most sublime mystery of Christianity that you have touched upon. If it seems to limit God to you, perhaps you misunderstand it. See the Summa Theologica, First Part, questions 27-43.
richgr1123 1 year ago
@Jugglable "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." This is John 1:1-2 This tells us that Jesus (the Word) always existed, even prior to when he became man. Also Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." The word "our" is an early reference to the Trinity, it doesn't say "Let me create man in my image." Hope this helps.
MsKateB1 3 months ago
@Jugglable The First passage of John deals with this, kinda. "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and like Father Barron mentioned in the Comments if their is a Lover (God) and a Beloved (the Word/ Jesus) then there has to be a Love shared between them (the Holy Spirit). It is also said in the Nicene creed, (I am paraphrasing) "I believe in the holy Spirit who has spoken through the prophets". The Prophets are, obviously, Old Testament.
TheRekcabOfTheD 3 months ago
@Jugglable Yes. Jesus was there when Earth and Heaven were created according to what Jesus claims for Himself.
djquiz6425 1 week ago
I picked up that book in a Charity shop. I found it totally embarrassing. I can only imagine that it was written for some sort of sentimental, middle-aged, non-aligned, vaguely protestant, wishy-washy, new-ageish, tepid feminist American. Certainly not for an orthodox, practicising Catholic. Why bother to read this when there are any number of Catholic authors giving a Catholic point of view. My copy ended up in the recycling bin. It felt like all the things I am sad about in our modern church.
broadleygreen 2 years ago
Just to add Father,
I read the book too and I enjoyed it very much. When you described "law" as a "structuring" it seemed quite evident that Christ, who is our source of grace "filled" the "structure" completely. And as scripture indicates, "Christ fulfilled the law." So I just thought it was a good description that compliments scripture quite well.
The one thing I really didn't like was the rejection of subsidiarity.
ChrisPietraszko 2 years ago
That last analogy made me go, "damn, this guy is good!".
ezemdi 2 years ago
Continuation ("Shack"):
t is rather washed away in a lot of talk about the love of God for us and us loving God and each other. The book is basically sentimental, but its sentimentality is cleverly disguised behind common sense humor and the ordinariness of its protagonists. The great echo this book has found is only indicative of our despair.
wolf1750 2 years ago
@wolf1750: Father Barron addressed that wider question (about why God allows disorder in the universe) in one of his Faith Clips. I'm not sure if there's a video on it here, but it's on his Faith Clips CD set. I don't remember if it's on mp3 for downloading; if it's not, I say it should be. Faith Clips is *great stuff.*
sterlingrose33 1 year ago
All that pious talk of Father Barron doesn't help me one bit. I went yesterday to a "Matsuri" (folk-festival) here in Kyoto. Everyone seemed to have a great time. - Then I saw something, that ruined everything for me: A group of "volunteers" pushing on wheelchairs deformed children with pale little faces, unable to walk for life! Seeing this, it is inconceivable for me, how ANYONE can believe in a kind, personal, just God. The believers are masters in "looking the other way".
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 Friend, believers in Christ are those who look, every day, at the crucified Lord. We look right into the face of the God who accompanies us in our deepest anguish. There is no religion that looks away from evil less than Christianity!
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 6
@wordonfirevideo Why look so far ... to a person, who either did not exist at all or suffered death VOLUNTARILY? Better look instead in the next hospital at children with bone-cancer or at people slowly starving in Africa and other places and ask yourself, how a PERSONAL, LOVING God can let this happen ! And don't bring up "FREE WILL" as an argument again! Innocent sufferers HAVE NO FREE WILL.
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 Where do you think Catholic missionaries, nurses, doctors, and pastoral ministers go? They specialize in hanging out at hospitals where kids are dying, at nursing homes where old people are lonely, in villages in Africa and Asia where there is no food. They go there because they believe in a loving God, who identifies with the suffering of the world. Why does God permit evil? Take a good long look at the book of Job, and then at the cross of Christ.
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 15
@wordonfirevideo There may be many reasons, why these kind people help the suffering mankind, e.g. in order to earn a place in heaven ... But how they manage to believe in a PERSONAL, JUST and LOVING God is beyond my understanding. -
Would you praise me as just and kind, if I would spit into YOUR face?
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 I would praise you as just and kind because I certainly know I deserve worse for what I've done with my life. Such a God is exactly beyond everyone's understanding. He's infinite. We're not supposed to understand but to believe. That's why He's a mystery--"I am who am." What's impossible to believe is that the evil we so really and profoundly experience is meaningless dust that resolves into nothing. Who would believe in a comprehensible God? That's a projection. God bless you.
richgr1123 1 year ago
@richgr1123 This reply is the most interesting so far. At least, you admit, that the Christian God (should he exist after all) is incomprehensible. But then I have to ask, why did he create me (or let me develop into) an intellectual? A "seeker"? Is he just a God for the Bible-Belt-Dummies? And do I know, that HE is the ONE AND ONLY ??? As you know, there have been MANY Gods in various parts of the world and history claiming the same ...
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 He created you as an intellectual because the love that satisfies the longings of our heart isn't just about blind emotions but integrates both the head and the heart. We have a love for both truth and the good; God is thus for everyone--the smart and the dumb, etc.
It depends on what you mean by "one and only." And historically, no, there has never been anything close to the Judeo-Christian God. There have been various forms of polytheism with hierarchies but nothing like this God.
richgr1123 1 year ago
@wordonfirevideo If God created us, he gave also SOME OF US the capacity to l think LOGICALLY. For centuries, thinkers of more importance than Fr. Barron and me have been unable to solve exactly this problem (theodize): How to reconcile the UNDESERVED suffering of INNOCENTS with a KIND and LOVING God. IF God created me, then he is responsible for me being just able to smile (painfully) about Fr. Barron's illogical and pious hogwash. SORRY!
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 Seeing people caring for one other, loving the despite their physical defects makes it inconceivable to you that people believe in a kind, personal, just God? This kid of selfless love is definitely proof of a loving God. These people were definitely NOT "looking the other way". Nor are people like Mother Theresa. My friend, you seem to have your polls reveresed.
jimmo42 1 year ago
@jimmo42 The problem is, that these children will NEED help for the rest of their life, even just for emptying their bowls! Why do you only look at the helpers and not at the children? And as I said above, the helpers either do it for gaining credits in heaven ... or simply because they could not find a less depressing job. As for Mother Theresa, take a look, what Christopher Hitchens had to say regarding her ... Just for fun. -
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750: Christopher Hitchens is a man filled with hate. Period. I am even less interested in hearing what he has to say about anything than I am hearing about what Hitler thought about butterflies. If anything Hitchens would say about Mother Theresa is even closely related to "fun" for you, it says volumes about your character.
jimmo42 1 year ago
@wolf1750 Typical ignorant bigot. Dozens of books were written about Mother Teresa praising her devotion and love to the poor but little souls like yourself have to wait for a very controversial book (to say the least) by a famous provocateur, to jump on the occasion, embrace its ideas without serious questionning, and start promoting it since it fits your anti-religious views. This tells alot about the degraded level of the so-called neo atheist have reached.
Enigmatik691 1 year ago
@Enigmatik691 I have also read many other "very controversial" books (by Dennet, Kueng, Harris, Dawkins etc.) I bet, more than you ... It comes with my job ;-) Typical, that you pounce on a little aside and try to prove from that, that I embrace all doubters "without serious questioning". And who says, I am "promoting" Hitchens"? Although he is certainly more intelligent than you.
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 Believers do not look the other way on the contrary, they look and see human suffering BUT they also see God dwelling in that suffering while unbelievers look but see only the suffering. So if you looked and saw only the miserable human condition then you must look deeper because God is not far.
Enigmatik691 1 year ago
@Enigmatik691 What kind of nonsense is this?! Where is a just and loving God in the undeserved lifelong suffering of innocents? Are you totally nuts?! This is an insult to God (in case he should exist after all). You are the best example for the fact, that people believe, what they WANT to believe. (And why do they? Because they NEED it PSYCHOLOGICALLY. It makes the certainty of death less frightening.)
wolf1750 1 year ago
@wolf1750 Nonsense to you since you ignore your faith. Dont you realize that in Christianity God love and sense of justice is crucified with the victims. This was God answer to human injustice and suffering: The cross.
Enigmatik691 1 year ago
@Enigmatik691 Bravo! You are outdoing YOURSELF ! Firstly: I HAVE NO faith, unfortunately! Secondly: If "in Christianity God love and sense of justice is crucified with the victims" (whatever you mean by that) then they do not exist in THIS, OUR wold any longer. Better: Sometimes they do, often they don't. That's, what I was saying. This God, that you are believing in, seems to be quite unreliable ;-)
wolf1750 1 year ago
Do the conversations with the Trinity solve the main question of this book: Why God allowed the abduction, (most likely sexual) mistreatment, and finally murder of the narrators beloved little daughter to happen? I DONT THINK SO! The basic question of this (otherwise well-written) book, the problem of Theodizee, is not being answered. I
wolf1750 2 years ago
Beautifully spoken. An excellent review!
benchwarmerbenji 2 years ago 2
My opinions sorta echo Fr. Barron. I went into it knowing it was "Protestant"-based, and I was pleasantly surprised to find most of it is aligned with 'mere' Christian theology common to both Catholicism and Protestantism.
groovepapa 2 years ago
Good review. I read this book not too long ago and was wondering what other catholics thought of it.
KungPowMeow 2 years ago