Beijing Style Shuaijiao/Wrestling

[crabbit87]

Where could I go to train this style? I have 4 years of previous wrestling experience.

[iMisogynist]

@ashwix please upload more i love your videos.

[GetDamage]

Uchi-mata?

[kaindrg]

would beijing school be closer to the manchurian version cuz i saw it as taht on wiki and i cautious about taking info from there? while it says other styles are more native han styles

[zenofdarkness]

This move reminds me of the harai goshi in judo.

Looks like a nice art to learn.

[timoxe]

This fighting system is one of the oldest systems in China, if not the oldest still living today....so yeah it might be nice to learn....I'm actually waiting for a reply to learn privately....as there are no schools in my area

[markohu]

xie xie ni

from Italy

[macaddict1980]

I think he would get a little more whip in the throw if he pulled his left arm up instead of around his body. This might just be a stylistic difference though. Judo has a similar throw, harai-goshi, and the pull up to get more lift. Like I said, this little difference is probably just one of the unique things with shuai jiao.

[thundergod6]

In doesn't matter where it's from. When you "lock horns" with someone, no matter where they're from or what they study, can you survive. That's what matters. The world is very small. In 20 years there will be no purely chinese, japanese, african or what have you martial art. The question was, is and always will be..... Can YOU use it!? Being chinese, living in china and/or speaking chinese doesn't make you an expert. Masters from China argue with each other over chinese martial art history.

[UFMD1]

Great move and very effective in actual street combat. To my understanding, Mongolians spread this style of wrestling throughout Asia, each area having a very similar version by various names. Egypt,India and Persia also did and still do have very great wrestling systems which spread to West Africa, Greece, Europe and the Americas. It is unclear how or if Persian and Mongol/Chinese wrestling shared in development. There may have been some sharing due to the silk road and migration, who knows?

[wombatfredman]

You guys are all idiots.  Shuai Jiao came from Mongolian wrestling..

And I live in Beijing....Do you? It's always funny when guys try to talk like they are experts on this stuff...

Have any of you guys been to China? Do any of you speak Chinese? Well I do...

[platinazb]

And you know better than everyone else just because you live in Beijing and speak Chinese? Try arguing with facts and mb you'll start to sound convincing.

[anthoneycrunch]

I just noticed this comment and just to say, I live in an very old historical place and the annoying tourists know more about this place's history than I do.

[thundergod6]

In doesn't matter where it's from. When you "lock horns" with someone, no matter where they're from or what they study, can you survive. That's what matters. The world is very small. In 20 years there will be no purely chinese, japanese, african or what have you martial art. The question was, is and always will be..... Can YOU use it!? Being chinese, living in china and/or speaking chinese doesn't make you an expert.

[BelloSanshou]

not only mogolian wresting man. its a combination of kungfu and mongolian wresting

[NassemAir]

the persian get ther styl of werstling from the chinies

[jeungbou]

If Shuaijiao is called wrestling in English, does that mean that Shuaijiao came from England? And by the way Shuaijiao is never called Xiangpu today. When we speak of Xiangpu in Chinese we mean Sumo, not modern Chinese Shuaijiao.

[ashwix]

i decided to send you a mail instead.

thanks for your posts.

all civilized discussion is welcome :-)

[jeungbou]

Thanks for the video upload:-)

[thaiboxer5]

every culture since the beginning of time has had some type of indegenous folk wrestling. The body can move only som many ways. Judo and shuai chiao are NOT from the same origin. There is no research that can prove otherwise as this point. However, if you REALLY look closely at method and technique, shuai chiao is more similar to sumo than judo. they both force the the throw by some means, unlike judo, which uses more passive methods of off-balancing.

[samuraiixi]

true what u said about JUDO, however, the 60kg guys are not excactly passive hahahaha

u box???

[thaiboxer5]

muay thai, yeah. I teach it.

[blackjamm]

The term "sumo" is Chinese in origin, so that's no so surprising - "xiangpu". It originated in the Tang dynasty, when Chinese influence on Japan was at its greatest. Anyway, whatever else it is, shuaijiao is very, very old, and has been practised for thousands of years, and it is thought to be the origin of all gongfu systems, even purely striking ones.

[jeungbou]

Do you know the difference between signifier and signified? It seems no. Yes you are right, the TERM sumo derived from Chinese. So what? Doesn't prove anything. Please do some research. Chinese Gongfu sucked ass until China invented Sanda in the 70s.

[blackjamm]

So, wait a moment - you think that it means nothing that the CHINESE characters used to write sumo, which first began in Japan in the Tang dynasty (first mentioned 8th century CE), the time of greatest Chinese influence on Japan by far, are the same as a common term for Chinese wrestling throughout the centuries? "Chinese gongfu sucked ass until China invented Sanda in the 70s". How can I research that? I also know that it is untrue, so...

[jeungbou]

Please proof me that I am wrong with Chinese gongfu. I would like to see a fight of a top fighter of traditional Chinese martial arts against a full resistant opponent who is a top fighter in a non-Chinese MA.

[blackjamm]

What, nowadays? That is, frankly, difficult, you are right. What that doesn't mean is that CMA suck; conditioning is a lot less than it should be, people don't train as hard nowadays. I think, too, that shuaijiao counts as traditional CMA (in fact, as traditional as they come), and shuaijiao training methods and techniques are used in sanda - maybe some of the Chinese striking methods don't apply well to the ring, but the throws definitely do. I love sanda, btw.

[jeungbou]

Why should the fighters back in the days have been better than nowadays? People are training harder than ever. And they have better drugs and nutrition than in ancient days. Of course I am not talking about those wellness people who train in their spare time.

[blackjamm]

But they don't train harder. Yes, they have better food and nutrition, but maybe that's the problem - they don't have to fight for food, to live. In the old days, people had martial jobs - being a bodyguard, soldier, etc, not just teaching martial arts, which is a whole different ball game. Training to fight every week, in real no rules environments, to survive and prosper, surely makes you train harder than simply the appeal of money from rich western students.

[jeungbou]

Bodyguards and soldiers since stone age has been using weapons to protect people and act as team. But Shuaijiao and Judo are unarmed combat sports. That's completely different. When you have ten men armed with knifes they don't need to be very skilled.

[blackjamm]

Try telling that to soldiers and bodyguards throughout the world and throughout history. You have to be very skilled with weapons to become a professional bodyguard, especially in a cutthroat world like 19th century Beijing, and you also have to be very skilled with empty hand.  Tong Zhongyi, the writer of "Zhongguo Shuaijiao Fa", was a bodyguard and a shuaijiao exponent. Neither Judo nor Shuaijiao began exclusively as sports, and they have both continued to be used as good self-defense arts.

[jeungbou]

Self-defense against what?

[blackjamm]

What the hell kind of question is that? Against attack from bare hands or contact weapons, like any self defense style. Surely that's at least one of the reasons you started martial arts training, if you ever have. It's certainly one of the most common reasons. So what do you mean by that question?

[jeungbou]

Shuaijiao against a bunch of thugs with weapons? You do actually belief that silly stuff? Better don't try that, rich western sinology student.

[blackjamm]

Ha! No martial art works against a bunch of thugs. Fighting groups of people with your bare hands is something that happens in dreams only. And when did I mention combat with multiple opponents? Of course I don't believe it. It is possible, just, to defend against a single human with a weapon if you don't have one, if you keep your head. And why have you decided to go to insults? Have you nothing more interesting to add about the history of east Asian martial arts?

[jeungbou]

It is possible if you are willing to risk your life. But that would be in contradiction to what you said before about soldiers and bodyguards who maybe would prefer to survive their mission. Naturally, they will choose the safest way to do their job, like people in the west did, too.

[blackjamm]

Bodyguards used weapons, of course, but everyone learnt barehands too, because it is reasonably easy to lose a contact weapon, or break it, in a fight. And skills developed to the highest level can give some confidence in encounters with unskilled, untrained men with knives. I'm not talking about "qi" or other bullshit, and I'm not saying that it is a skill anyone should go into martial arts specifically for, but it is possible to fight someone with a knife and win with no weapons of your own.

[jeungbou]

Vid please. Otherwise it didn't happen.

[blackjamm]

You want a video of Jamukha being executed by Chinggis' bodyguard? You know, that's a really tall order. It was 800 years ago. Or was it the knife attack thing you wanted? I'm sure there ARE some videos out there of knife assaults being turned away, but here's the thing: I didn't say I could do it, or that it didn't require extreme speed and the workings of adrenaline to achieve it. I also don't think the attacker is going to let you pull out a camera.

[jeungbou]

Jamukha being executed with bare hands???

[blackjamm]

His back was broken through wrestling, in an execution. It is possible that it was another who is specifically referred to as having his back broken through wrestling, but Jamukha certainly had his back broken. It's been a while since I read the Secret History.

[blackjamm]

Fact is, practically all north east Asian wrestling traditions have enormous similiarities - Mongolian wrestling, Manchu wrestling, Korean Ssireum, shuaijiao, Sumo - and it would be rather crazy to say that there isn't a link between all of them, especially when one looks at the evidence of names and dates.  As for the "Chinese gongfu sucked...", that's just not true. There are lots of excellent Chinese systems of self-defense, and that definitely includes shuaijiao.

[jeungbou]

But let us come back to the similarities, didn't you notice that the anatomical structure of human are the same everywhere on the planet? So why should there be such a big difference between different wrestling arts. It's just about how use and teach techniques systematically.

[blackjamm]

No, it's not just that the throwing techniques are similar, it's that rules, stances, clothing worn and principles are the same, as well as many training methods, like braided ropes, stacks of canes to twist to increase grip, etc. Of course most wrestling systems are similar, and in fact, even the wrestling images from Beni Hasan look similar to modern wrestling and throwing styles to me. But the similarities of east Asian styles go beyond technique.

[jeungbou]

Yes, but then the nearest connecting point would be Kobun Gakuin.

[blackjamm]

The Kobun Gakuin was established in the 20th century.  I have a feeling that is a little late for the transfer of any martial arts skills, frankly. So what do you mean precisely?

[jeungbou]

19th century to be precise. But didn't already go beyond technique? We are talking about the invention of a martial arts tradition, which didn't happen before Meiji Restoration.

[blackjamm]

So no east Asian martial arts traditions existed before the 19th century? Is that what you are trying to say? Because that is obviously not the truth, and I suspect I have misunderstood something. The arts that developed into ssireum, shuaijiao, jujutsu, sumo, and bokh all have/had very ancient precedents, and they are all part of the massive cultural interaction in east Asia since at least the late Han dynasty. They did not just spontaneously occur in the 19th century, separately.

[jeungbou]

How familiar are you really with East-Asian history?

[blackjamm]

I'm a sinologist. How familiar are you with east Asian history?

[jeungbou]

Then I am sorry for you.

[blackjamm]

What on earth do you mean by that?

[jeungbou]

I feel sorry for you.

[blackjamm]

Right, got that. Why? Why do you feel sorry for me? I don't feel sorry for me. I like my life.

[jeungbou]

One day you will see the boring truth behind all these lies and mystical stuff, and invented traditions of modern China, which often make rich western students so blind. Then you will understand what I was trying to say.

[blackjamm]

Don't be silly, I don't believe in any mythical stuff. Shuaijiao is a good sport. It has lots of good training methods. You can use it in a fight. As for "invented traditions": don't be silly. Is shuaijiao an invented tradition? No: there is evidence of it stretching back thousands of years, and lots and lots of evidence dating from the Song, Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties, in what seems to be its present form. I am not "blind", thank you very much. And I am also not rich.

[jeungbou]

Where is the evidence?

[blackjamm]

Do you know the Yin Cheng Gong Fa association? You can find their website easily, ycgf dot org. They have a small shuaijiao section that has an engraving from the Warring States and a painting from the Song. There are also countless other paintings from the Song onwards - I should be able to find some more. And Bokh, Mongol wrestling (technically I'm also a Mongolist - I speak Halh Mongol), is at least as old as the days of Chinggis Khan, as it is mentioned in the Secret History.

[jeungbou]

No I don't know that association. Should I? Nothing more official about CMA? How could that be? Chinese have a long tradition of history writing. Nothing about lineage? Secret History seems to me like made up. I don't recognize much from your paintings and carvings. At least no similarities in rule set.

[blackjamm]

How can you tell the similarities or differences from a painting in terms of RULES? That doesn't make sense.  Do you even know any shuaijiao? Why are you being so needlessly stupid and difficult? Shuaijiao and the basis of it is mentioned often in Chinese history, with name changes of course, but the basic actions are mentioned as being the same. And the Secret History is not made up. So I don't get it - do you just hate China for some reason?

[jeungbou]

Didn't you agree with me that most wrestling systems are similar due to the fact that all humans have the same anatomy? So we aren't talking about techniques any more. Neither are we arguing about the fact that people everywhere on earth have developed some kind of wrestling. Didn't we both already agree about that long before? So what do paintings tell us. That Chinese knew some kind of wrestling, too. WOW! Breaking news!

[jeungbou]

In case you forgot, we are now arguing about your statement that "the similarities of east Asian styles go beyond technique." And that ancient arts were better than nowadays are.

[blackjamm]

I was not saying that ancient arts were better than today, just that ancient (or more accurately, early modern) Chinese martial ARTISTS were better than Chinese martial artists in traditional style today.  And yes, my argument was that the similarities of Asian wrestling styles go beyond technique - which they do - although of course, technique is part of it. Again, I don't see why you are being so difficult.

[blackjamm]

Surely it is self-evident that Chinese wrestling, which certainly existed before and after the Tang dynasty, which was a period of enormous impact from China on Japan, and was in that period known as "xiangpu", influenced and began the creation of Sumo in Japan, which uses the same name and has an obviously similar ruleset and idea? It is also common sense that nomadic wrestling influenced the creation of Chinese wrestling, certainly Mongol wrestling the Yuan and the Manchus.

[blackjamm]

The point you made was that Chinese martial arts were some kind of "made up" tradition, lies. I refuted you. It had little to do with the original topic, but it was you, not me, who changed it and inserted that comment.

[jeungbou]

Inoue Shun published a good paper about kodokan judo, in which writes about budo as an invented tradition in modern Japan. As a reaction to Japanese Budo, when the Republic of China was founded, they made up a Chinese version of budo, starting with Jingwu. Invented tradition is not about technique, it's about ideology, including nationalism.

[blackjamm]

The Chinese version of Budo, or the attempted creation of it, was not Chinese martial arts - it was a Chinese martial spirit. Martial arts had already existed for a very long time, but the invention of a warring spirit to rival Japan's was a different thing. And yes, a lot of it does seem to be about nationalism......

Anyway, let's stop this. It's obvious ashwix would prefer it. You can PM me if you like.

[NassemAir]

the Budo and the jing woo are different things. jingwoo was founded for the people they wont get to an shaolintemle or was not in a family wich their teaching kungfu. so the jing woo was the first material atrs school in china. But the chinise gouverment was not a sponsor of that

[ashwix]

Without mentioning the problems between Taiwan and it's Homeland, i don't expect that there are any problems with regards to the interlectual understanding of history with eiter of you.

I do sense that this discussion had resulted in both blackjamm and jeungbou taking staunch stances on historical events that neither of you experienced, or saw with your own eyes - to take Jeungbou's "where is the evidence?" arguement to it's natural limits.

So it makes it all kind of pointless.

[ashwix]

We have an opportunity to share specific, verifiable information and sources to expand our knowledge in this worthy field of research.

I request that you both cooperate to learn. Save your arguing for the mat... which I'm also happy to ref :-)Michael

[ashwix]

if you take exception to this request, feel free to email me

[blackjamm]

Sorry for taking up the comments board just to argue about history. :-)

[blackjamm]

Yes, of course neither of us experienced the events - but historians have seldom experienced the events they research, but can still find out and teach about it from sources. I'm not disputing that it is pointless, though.

[jeungbou]

Sorry for my impatient and maybe rude tone. I did some tiering research about CMA, and didn't really find some reliable sources. So I like to provoke people hoping they will give me some hints about some useful historical records.

[skidders21]

Argueing about who came up with what is kinda pointless. What is important is the emphasis of the art. Judo focuses on throws/ and chokes. That's how most judoka win matches. Shuai jiao practitioner must completely control his opponent when throwing him, hence no makacomi type throws. Jujistu in the japanese sence focuses on strikes, throws and standing arm locks. But the brazilian form likes groundfighting more. It's all wrestling, but it's just what they choose to focus on.

[bantambot]

I def. agree with you that the Japanese do use a lot of the Chinese developments in their society. Writing, religion, etc... You've pointed out some good examples. But to say Judo is Shua Jiao is completely false. Judo came from Jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu may have adapted some things from Chinese Wushu, but we're talking a much different version at that point. Again, to say they're the same is very wrong.

[bantambot]

You cleary need to pick up a book son. Research it, and you'll see they were both developed completely seperately.

[Boutchman]

See the same technique in Judo from Japan: Harai goshi(Sweeping Hip Throw)

[benzsu]

Fmoa watches to much TV. every martial art has their strength and weakness. It will be piontless to argue which is better. The person who is the most skilled will win. It's not about who's style is better. An old man who's 120 lbs beat a younger man who's 250 lbs because the old man practice Eagle claw kung fu for more than 50 yrs. The older man crack "walnuts" daily with his bare hands. Do you get my piont! GO for the eyes, throat and nuts. Didn't you learn anything form Bruce lee.

[TheLatinSamurai]

Benzsu I agree with what your saying but this might fall on death ears .

[fmoa]

brazilian jiu-jitsu 4-life baby, in mma this fools will get submitted or get choked in 3 minutes or less anyways it looks like japanese judo to me and this stuff is for the olympics only baby.

[ashwix]

We also train BJJ. Shuaijiao makes your BJJ game more complete. Thanks for your comment anyway

[Tazz77]

They're only demonstrating one particular throw. You shouldn't be so quick to judge.

[OhMymy]

I want to train in that place!

[theshadowboy607]

interesting!!

[hiucf]

It was believed shuaijiao is mother of judo and jujitsu. Different is SJ is faster and cleaner in throwing.

[jeungbou]

Are you sure that it's not the son? Because China copied many things from Japan since the Meiji-restauration. As I know Martial Arts where not that popular in China before Late Qing.

[TheLatinSamurai]

Whilr I dont think they copied judo but they are similar. I think they both have evloved from different origin and its onle luck that they luck similar . We only have to arms and two legs so you are bound to have similar moves.

[ashwix]

Shuaijiao is China's oldest martial art. It used to be called Jiao Li. There are written refrences to Jiao Li in the Classic of the Rites - Li Ji - which was written between 475-221BC, so Jiaoli has been around for far more than 2000 years. I know Japan has been inhabited for the past 30,000 years, and it was settled from memory in like 600BC. Their first written records were from like 500AD... what is Jiujitsu's history?

[jeungbou]

Tell us more. Is there something written about the techniques of Jiaoli? Oh no? They only mentioned the name of Jiaoli in Liji. How funny is that? And Liji actually was written in the Han-dynasty and the version we know today is from the Qing-dynasty. Oh no!!! And when were the oldest pictures and films of Shuaijiao made? Oh no, all after the development of Judo during the Meiji period! I think TheLatinSamurai got the point.

[ashwix]

1.Yes, there are things written about Jiao Li - a name that began being used in the Qin Dynasty - as it was adopted by the Qin Government for military and entertainment purposes.

2. Liji was actually written between the Waring States and Qin-Han Dynasties by many Confucian Scholars.

[jeungbou]

1. I only found one sentence in Yueling where only the name of Jiaoli is mentioned. There is nothing said about how it looked like. And humans mainly use weapons for military proposes since prehistoric times, wrestling has ever been only a game.

2. We still don't know much about the origin of Liji. But we already know according to zhujian found in excavation that the single chapters which where written before Qin looked quite differnt from the version we know today.

[ashwix]

3. The oldest pictures and film of shuaijiao - a name that has only been in use for the past 50 years - is more of an interesting question. I too would like to find old footage, photos, and art. I have been and seen the frescos at Shaolin Temple which are from the 16th century i remember... and a lot of the movements have a striking resemblace to the throwing techniques of todays shuaijiao.

[jeungbou]

3. As I remember, the name of Shuaijiao was already use in the Wuxianovel Jindai Xiayi Yingxiong Zhuan from Xiang Kairan which was published in Shanghai in the late 1920s. I have the pictures of the frescos of Shaolin Temple here. Which one do you mean?

[ashwix]

4. The Latin Samurai's third sentence is spot on. Wrestling has developed in most societies around the world, and we do have the same anatomical structure, so similarities are bound to be there.

5. I have heard references - which i will go and verify - that one point in Shuaijiao's history it was refered to as Xiang Pu. Im not sure how good your kanji or mandarin is jeungbou, but Xiang Pu are the same characters as Sumo.Interesting?

[jeungbou]

Did you know that japanese Kisha and chinese Qiche are the same characters? Intresting isn't it?

[blackjamm]

This is an odd argument. Shuaijiao became really popular in China in the first years of the Qing, not after the Meiji restoration in Japan, because the Manchus developed a bodyguard unit called the Shanpuying who used Manchu wrestling, very similar to Chinese and Mongolian styles (now just merged with shuaijiao, as the Manchus merged with the Han). Judo did not influence shuaijiao.

[blackjamm]

And both Chinese and Japanese records state that Chen Yuan Bin travelled to Japan in the Ming and taught Shuaijiao - he probably did not originate a style, but brought training methods and some new concepts to pre-existing Japanese styles. It is ridiculous for shuaijiao guys to claim that Judo/jujutsu came from shuaijiao, but it's equally ridiculous to say that shuaijiao had no influence, especially as Chinese influence on Japan was historically so great.

[blackjamm]

As for the techniques of Jiao Li, there are engravings from the Warring States that show wrestlers in action (unearthed at Kesheng in Shaanxi) - so Chinese wrestling is clearly extremely old - as well as paintings from at the very least, the Song dynasty. I can't think of any Tang dynasty sources, but I'd say that the Tang is the time when shuaijiao would originally have influenced JMA, especially as that was the time when the SunZi Bing Fa was brought to Japan.

[blackjamm]

And wrestling in the Song was known as Xiangpu, as ashwix says, and I believe it was in the Tang too. It's not co-incidence that Sumo is called Sumo, Xiangpu - it's just influence. It is, of course, extremely different now to shuaijiao, and that is just like the influence of shuaijiao on jujutsu - Japanese people took the ideas and ran with them. I also think that Mongol wrestling, or at least, steppe wrestling, was one of the main influences behind shuaijiao, so...

[Urocke]

looks a bit like judo...almost the same foot movements to throw...cool stuff~

[chairmang]

yeah i guess what works works its like science.people claim different people copy each other but i don't believe that.

[ashwix]

Feel free to contact me if you are interested in Shuaijiao or the martial arts/MMA scene in China