hell, if people are able to learn Japanese writings Kana (48 characters for Hiragana and 48 for Katakana) then.... ANYONE will be able to learn up to 30 normal characters...
@TheMrNalsur , this is true, but the Latin alphabet is already understood around the world, also, it is difficult to get support for non-Latin characters. The global language should use the commonly understood alphabet with as few letters as possible.
The study and production of contructed languages is fascinating. Although I agree one for the world wouldnt work, cultures would be proud of their original languages anyway..
@dbguitar100 , No one is suggesting that we get rid of cultural languages or even suggest a cultural language as a global language. In all fairness, the global language should be made up in order to have bias towards a culture. Likewise, this language is not to replace all others but exist as a second language to facilitate communication between different people around the world..
@dbguitar100 , Sorry if I seemed hostile, I wasn't trying to be in anyway. I was seriously just trying to be informative. A lot of people think that a global language means that we are trying to destroy others when in reality we just wanna have a second language to help us communicate. It's all good. Thank you for commenting, I appreciate it.
Arpee, I think you're seriously limiting your viewpoint here. You're making it sound like hyper-simplicity and regularity-without-fail are the most critical features, which disregards what we see in the world, which is many people speaking languages with all these complicated sounds, grammatical functions and irregularities and somehow it still works.
On the contrary, having more grammar, sounds, syllables etc, can help at times - more redundancy = less confusion between otherwise similar words
@kuj4z , as a global language English is broken... But then again a "broken language " is just an opinion. My idea of a broken language is one with irregularities.
@arpee9216 conversely my idea of a broken language is one that disregards pragmatism, which might mean perceived irregularities are acceptable, otherwise why would so many of the most spoken languages still retain them even after being spoken by so many people? They're obviously not that detrimental to communication. Regardless not having them can be good as well, but I don't think this is a black and white topic at all.
@kuj4z English is fine. All languages are fine. But whether or not they are fine for global purposes is another matter, entirely. English is pretty bad for an international language. It has irregular grammar and spelling. It is difficult to pronounce correctly for many. No, no, no.... An international language should, ideally, be easy to learn for all. Now, the matter of how to make this ideal language easy for everyone is a question that is answered in different ways by different people...
Why are you so adamantly against esperanto? It obviously works. Sure, for many asians, inflection it weird, but it is easy enough to grasp. They may prefer tones over inflection, but westerners sure wouldn't. Poles and Czechs could do cons clusters until their tongues fall out but not the japanese.
there are arguably over a million people who can understand esperanto in some way. far from global, yes. but keep in mind, the vast majority of languages only have about 100,000.
In what ways is Puna better than Bon Wen? I can see that one still can't say numbers, fruits, animals, colours, feelings, and many other things in Puna while one can say those stuff in Bon Wen. Look at bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom/Core+Word+Dictionary and see just how many words are missing in Puna.
I challenge you to translate each and every Bon Wen word (or as much as you can) into Puna!
Moreover, the Bon Wen dictionary on Scribdcom is un-updated. I've been trying to tell you this many times. It says it's been uploaded on 2/18/2009, before the Bon Wen updates on Freewebs which happened just about a year ago. It still contains all the flaws that have been corrected during the updates.
And it STILL isn't updated! You've even made a video that you'll make more words and improve Bon Wen til it can no longer be improved anymore. You just deleted the dictionary on Freewebs and gave a link to the OLD, UN-UPDATED dictionary on Scribdcom with all its flaws before the updates.
I know the reason why you seem to have neglected Bon Wen is because of Puna. But Puna contains lots of errors. Just compare it with the Bon Wen dictionary and you get the idea.
@whjudoka There is really only one Global constructed language and that is Esperanto. Esperanto and only Esperanto is a genuine living language and it took 50 years of dedicatred development by tens of thousands of devoted fans to achieve this state, After more than 120 years of constant work it is the equal of any major language in Europe. These others are just mere constructed language projects, intellectual toys for conlang fanciers to play with. Esperanto has already solved the problem.
@JerryBear48 The creation of a language is unbeleivably complex, far more so than the conlang fans realize.This video presents silly fatuous comments about a supposedly ideal language that have no foundation in reality. Truth is concrete, not theoretical. Any claim about language has to be tested in actual practice, not proclaimed on the basis of some kind of linguistic theory. No conlang based on the above principals has ever gotten anywhere. Only Esperanto succeeded, no other.
@JerryBear48 Esperanto has proven its effectiveness again and again over many generations. It is heinous to ignore this and promote other projects that would need generations of work to reach a useful level when we need a solution NOW and that solution EXISTS! The Esperanto language of today is a far cry from "Dr. Esperanto's International Language Project" of more than 120 years ago. To see a real langiage in action, you need to study the living Esperanto of today. There is no comparison.
@JerryBear48 Mi jam parolas Esperanton kaj multe ĝuas ĝin. I simply felt that Interlingua came closest to the qualities the video espouses. Still, I believe most conlangers underestimate the work necessary to start a language. Nonetheless, do you not hold the common Esperantist viewpoint that minority languages have value (even conlangs)?
Which years of the 120 do you consider to be the dedicated development? Some of the early literature and newsletters are really mobilising, passionate pieces.
@whjudoka Interlingua is as hard to learn as a regular Romance Language if you don't come from a Romance language background. You might as well have everybody learn Spanish. However, Interlingua would work fine as an interlanguage among Romance speakers. It is readily intelligible to an educated native speaker of any major Romance language. I share the fascination with con languages.. I think Toki Pona fits the original post best, but it is hardly a serious language.
@JerryBear48 I mostly agree with you. However, it is a "serious" language. Well, actually, that would depend on one's definition of a "serious" language. However, I believe Toki Pona is unfit only because of the fact that it is very ambiguous and not capable of expressing some concepts necessary to be expressed in our modern world today, or at least, not capable of expressing them efficiently. Natlang -> Toki Pona = 1237210837 x more words, syllables, phonemes, time. Haha...
I improved Dunja Wen, which is now called Bon Wen 2.0. It's an attempt to resurrect the language and allow it to evolve until it's a perfect language, (or at least a "fit" global language :D). There are now 15 sounds:
p, b, t, k, s, l, m, n, w, j, a, e, i, o and u. The letter order is:
After seeing this video, you've made some changes. I saw that the word order was changes to "optional vowel-consonant-vowel-optional n" which is more easy than the consonant clusters and finals you had. Good job! As a matter of fact, Dunja Wen has final consonants, it has 5 vowels which is difficult for many people. Why so many sounds? If this language is to be global it should have no more than 10 sounds.
Bon Wen 2.0 has no final consonants apart from "n". I reduced the number of consonants as much as possible, but what more sounds should I eliminate from our language.
@arpee9216 ten sounds? that's rediculous. if you had a language with say 7 consonants and 3 vowels, and only a CV syllable struture (consonant followed by a vowel, mean no consonant clusters or vowel clusters anywhere) then you would have 21 possible 1-syllable words, 441 2-syllable words, and 9261 3-syllable words, and you need at least 1000 root words, and 100,000s of thousands of compound words made by combining root words, so your language would end up being impractically long-winded.
I still think Esperanto is the best possible attempt at a global language, and before you point out its flaws- making a perfect language is like finding the meaning of life; neither concept exists.
Well, okay. I think Esperanto is a fit enough language to cater for the speakers of English, East Asian, Latin languages, Slavic/Russian, Middle Eastern, Indian, and even African languages. Essentially, most of the world's population. It may still need some pruning and changing in order to adapt but that can be considered as more people learn it and we can see where the problems lie, as opposed to theoreticising too early on.
Ok, well this video pointed out it's flaws. Watch it again. I do not want to turn this into a "Esperanto Debate" when it should be a discussion about what is an "unfit" global language.
I was thinking of avoiding clusters, but I thought a word like "basuketubalu" sounds wierd if you use it for "basketball", since Dunja Wen is an evolving language. Now, after watching this, I think I might get rid of them.
hell, if people are able to learn Japanese writings Kana (48 characters for Hiragana and 48 for Katakana) then.... ANYONE will be able to learn up to 30 normal characters...
TheMrNalsur 3 days ago
@TheMrNalsur , this is true, but the Latin alphabet is already understood around the world, also, it is difficult to get support for non-Latin characters. The global language should use the commonly understood alphabet with as few letters as possible.
arpee9216 3 days ago
The study and production of contructed languages is fascinating. Although I agree one for the world wouldnt work, cultures would be proud of their original languages anyway..
dbguitar100 1 week ago
@dbguitar100 , No one is suggesting that we get rid of cultural languages or even suggest a cultural language as a global language. In all fairness, the global language should be made up in order to have bias towards a culture. Likewise, this language is not to replace all others but exist as a second language to facilitate communication between different people around the world..
arpee9216 3 days ago
@arpee9216 Just trying to be kind. Sorry, the internet seems to be a hostile place
dbguitar100 2 days ago
@dbguitar100 , Sorry if I seemed hostile, I wasn't trying to be in anyway. I was seriously just trying to be informative. A lot of people think that a global language means that we are trying to destroy others when in reality we just wanna have a second language to help us communicate. It's all good. Thank you for commenting, I appreciate it.
arpee9216 2 days ago
There shouldn't be a global language ;)
Koshi0koshi 1 month ago
@Koshi0koshi I definitely agree!
dEndiProductions 3 weeks ago
Arpee, I think you're seriously limiting your viewpoint here. You're making it sound like hyper-simplicity and regularity-without-fail are the most critical features, which disregards what we see in the world, which is many people speaking languages with all these complicated sounds, grammatical functions and irregularities and somehow it still works.
On the contrary, having more grammar, sounds, syllables etc, can help at times - more redundancy = less confusion between otherwise similar words
chrissomerry 3 months ago
If its not broken don't fix it?
English is fine.
kuj4z 8 months ago
@kuj4z , as a global language English is broken... But then again a "broken language " is just an opinion. My idea of a broken language is one with irregularities.
arpee9216 8 months ago 2
@arpee9216 conversely my idea of a broken language is one that disregards pragmatism, which might mean perceived irregularities are acceptable, otherwise why would so many of the most spoken languages still retain them even after being spoken by so many people? They're obviously not that detrimental to communication. Regardless not having them can be good as well, but I don't think this is a black and white topic at all.
chrissomerry 3 months ago
@kuj4z English is fine. All languages are fine. But whether or not they are fine for global purposes is another matter, entirely. English is pretty bad for an international language. It has irregular grammar and spelling. It is difficult to pronounce correctly for many. No, no, no.... An international language should, ideally, be easy to learn for all. Now, the matter of how to make this ideal language easy for everyone is a question that is answered in different ways by different people...
phr4nk3rd00d13 4 months ago
Why are you so adamantly against esperanto? It obviously works. Sure, for many asians, inflection it weird, but it is easy enough to grasp. They may prefer tones over inflection, but westerners sure wouldn't. Poles and Czechs could do cons clusters until their tongues fall out but not the japanese.
there are arguably over a million people who can understand esperanto in some way. far from global, yes. but keep in mind, the vast majority of languages only have about 100,000.
mrlanguageguy 1 year ago
In what ways is Puna better than Bon Wen? I can see that one still can't say numbers, fruits, animals, colours, feelings, and many other things in Puna while one can say those stuff in Bon Wen. Look at bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom/Core+Word+Dictionary and see just how many words are missing in Puna.
I challenge you to translate each and every Bon Wen word (or as much as you can) into Puna!
And why did you create Puna?
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
@iamaverystrongguy
Moreover, the Bon Wen dictionary on Scribdcom is un-updated. I've been trying to tell you this many times. It says it's been uploaded on 2/18/2009, before the Bon Wen updates on Freewebs which happened just about a year ago. It still contains all the flaws that have been corrected during the updates.
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
@iamaverystrongguy
And it STILL isn't updated! You've even made a video that you'll make more words and improve Bon Wen til it can no longer be improved anymore. You just deleted the dictionary on Freewebs and gave a link to the OLD, UN-UPDATED dictionary on Scribdcom with all its flaws before the updates.
I know the reason why you seem to have neglected Bon Wen is because of Puna. But Puna contains lots of errors. Just compare it with the Bon Wen dictionary and you get the idea.
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
@iamaverystrongguy I tried to re-make Bon Wen on bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom. I've tried to make it as "fit" as possible. You can collaborate.
Just think thoroughly as to how and whether Puna will become a global language. Don't just say "The less the words, the easier the language."
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
Why haven't you updated Bon Wen for a long while? Go to bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom
Why haven't you updated Bon Wen for a long while?
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom
Why haven't you updated Bon Wen for a long while?
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
bon-wen-na-wen.wikispacescom
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
It rather sounds like you're looking for Interlingua. Admittedly this
limits itself to Indo-European langauges, but if you try to make a
language that's familiar to everyone you lose all the recognisability
-- check out the Lojban word derivation (e.g. blanu for blue,
eytmology at en.wiktionaryorg/wiki/blanu).
The Esperanto example is unfair. You've just created a list of similar
words, not conjugation. Constrast avoir conjugation: french.aboutcom/od/verb_conjugations/a/avoir.htm
whjudoka 1 year ago
Interlingua is absolutely not fit for a global constructed language. Have you not watched the video?
Lojban made the best choice by making all word unfamiliar although there are still faults as explained in the video.
I do not like this post at all, but in the spirit of free speech - I will keep you post.
arpee9216 1 year ago
@whjudoka There is really only one Global constructed language and that is Esperanto. Esperanto and only Esperanto is a genuine living language and it took 50 years of dedicatred development by tens of thousands of devoted fans to achieve this state, After more than 120 years of constant work it is the equal of any major language in Europe. These others are just mere constructed language projects, intellectual toys for conlang fanciers to play with. Esperanto has already solved the problem.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 The creation of a language is unbeleivably complex, far more so than the conlang fans realize.This video presents silly fatuous comments about a supposedly ideal language that have no foundation in reality. Truth is concrete, not theoretical. Any claim about language has to be tested in actual practice, not proclaimed on the basis of some kind of linguistic theory. No conlang based on the above principals has ever gotten anywhere. Only Esperanto succeeded, no other.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 Esperanto has proven its effectiveness again and again over many generations. It is heinous to ignore this and promote other projects that would need generations of work to reach a useful level when we need a solution NOW and that solution EXISTS! The Esperanto language of today is a far cry from "Dr. Esperanto's International Language Project" of more than 120 years ago. To see a real langiage in action, you need to study the living Esperanto of today. There is no comparison.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 Mi jam parolas Esperanton kaj multe ĝuas ĝin. I simply felt that Interlingua came closest to the qualities the video espouses. Still, I believe most conlangers underestimate the work necessary to start a language. Nonetheless, do you not hold the common Esperantist viewpoint that minority languages have value (even conlangs)?
Which years of the 120 do you consider to be the dedicated development? Some of the early literature and newsletters are really mobilising, passionate pieces.
whjudoka 1 year ago
@whjudoka Interlingua is as hard to learn as a regular Romance Language if you don't come from a Romance language background. You might as well have everybody learn Spanish. However, Interlingua would work fine as an interlanguage among Romance speakers. It is readily intelligible to an educated native speaker of any major Romance language. I share the fascination with con languages.. I think Toki Pona fits the original post best, but it is hardly a serious language.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 I mostly agree with you. However, it is a "serious" language. Well, actually, that would depend on one's definition of a "serious" language. However, I believe Toki Pona is unfit only because of the fact that it is very ambiguous and not capable of expressing some concepts necessary to be expressed in our modern world today, or at least, not capable of expressing them efficiently. Natlang -> Toki Pona = 1237210837 x more words, syllables, phonemes, time. Haha...
phr4nk3rd00d13 4 months ago
Comment removed
whjudoka 1 year ago
Visit bonwenv2.wikispacescom
It now has only 11 sounds.
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
I improved Dunja Wen, which is now called Bon Wen 2.0. It's an attempt to resurrect the language and allow it to evolve until it's a perfect language, (or at least a "fit" global language :D). There are now 15 sounds:
p, b, t, k, s, l, m, n, w, j, a, e, i, o and u. The letter order is:
optional vowel - consonant - vowel - optional n
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
@iamaverystrongguy
After seeing this video, you've made some changes. I saw that the word order was changes to "optional vowel-consonant-vowel-optional n" which is more easy than the consonant clusters and finals you had. Good job! As a matter of fact, Dunja Wen has final consonants, it has 5 vowels which is difficult for many people. Why so many sounds? If this language is to be global it should have no more than 10 sounds.
arpee9216 1 year ago
Bon Wen 2.0 has no final consonants apart from "n". I reduced the number of consonants as much as possible, but what more sounds should I eliminate from our language.
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
@arpee9216 ten sounds? that's rediculous. if you had a language with say 7 consonants and 3 vowels, and only a CV syllable struture (consonant followed by a vowel, mean no consonant clusters or vowel clusters anywhere) then you would have 21 possible 1-syllable words, 441 2-syllable words, and 9261 3-syllable words, and you need at least 1000 root words, and 100,000s of thousands of compound words made by combining root words, so your language would end up being impractically long-winded.
lXBlackWolfXl 1 year ago
I still think Esperanto is the best possible attempt at a global language, and before you point out its flaws- making a perfect language is like finding the meaning of life; neither concept exists.
anglaismoyen 1 year ago
@anglaismoyen
There may be no such thing as a "perfect language" but there is a such thing as a "fit global language".
arpee9216 1 year ago
Well, okay. I think Esperanto is a fit enough language to cater for the speakers of English, East Asian, Latin languages, Slavic/Russian, Middle Eastern, Indian, and even African languages. Essentially, most of the world's population. It may still need some pruning and changing in order to adapt but that can be considered as more people learn it and we can see where the problems lie, as opposed to theoreticising too early on.
anglaismoyen 1 year ago 2
@anglaismoyen
Ok, well this video pointed out it's flaws. Watch it again. I do not want to turn this into a "Esperanto Debate" when it should be a discussion about what is an "unfit" global language.
arpee9216 1 year ago
Ah well, I thought it was relevant.
anglaismoyen 1 year ago
@Maddieshagger
It's called word formation. In English, this is acceptable.
root word "Minim-" (least)
you can make "minim-um" (least-noun)
minim-al (least-adjective)
minimal-ist (a person who strives for least)
minimalist-ic (pertaining to a person who strives for least)
minimalistic language means "a language which pertains to a linguist who strives for least in a language".
Learn about affixes and you will be able to understand these neologism in English
arpee9216 1 year ago
I was thinking of avoiding clusters, but I thought a word like "basuketubalu" sounds wierd if you use it for "basketball", since Dunja Wen is an evolving language. Now, after watching this, I think I might get rid of them.
iamaverystrongguy 1 year ago
@iamaverystrongguy
Remember not just the vocabulary should be minimalistic but the sounds of the language and the syllables per word.
If each word would strive to be one syllable then you would have less syllables then "Basuketubalu" for "Basketball".
arpee9216 1 year ago